Mini Normal 2002: The Thaw OVERRRRRRRRR

GreyICE · Post Post #79 (isolation #0) » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:01 pm

In post 53, MagnaofIllusion wrote:
In post 51, Saudade wrote:I regret joining this game.
Why? I mean Grey isn’t even here yet so the yelling volume is way low.

Hey I resemble that remark.

In post 69, Flavor Leaf wrote:Just putting it out there, Saudade’s the first player in a long while to completely shrek me with their scum game. Don’t sleep on him.

Look ma, no yelling.

Well, if you're cool. You are cool, right MOI?

Vote:Flavor Leaf

It's what the cool kids do.

GreyICE · Post Post #80 (isolation #1) » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:05 pm

In post 76, Hoopla wrote:Oh yeah, I forgot to tell everyone.

I had a dream (like, a sleep dream -- this isn't the start of an inspirational speech) that we decided to no-lynch as performance art and in a show of solidarity scum decided to no-kill. I can't decide if it's pleasant or alarming that this game has already pierced my subconscious so effectively.

This isn't really related to anything, just
wanted to distract from the fact I haven't started scumhunting yet
wanted to share.

If I was scum I'd totes be on board with this. Happily ever after forever. It'd kind of be fitting after how we started.

Sadly the scum are probably evil no good honorless bastards.

GreyICE · Post Post #86 (isolation #2) » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:12 pm

Saudade not voting scum.

Am sad.

GreyICE · Post Post #87 (isolation #3) » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:14 pm

Oh MOI is my mason buddy, I'm claiming early to head off any potential confusion.

GreyICE · Post Post #114 (isolation #4) » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:14 pm

In post 100, Gamma Emerald wrote:Flavor is at L-1
I s2g if someone hammers I will turbo policy them d2

I'll give them a cookie for having big brass balls.

Well it will be sad to miss out on MOI (see his title) but I mean... scum lynch, day 1, what could I possibly hate on that?

GreyICE · Post Post #115 (isolation #5) » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:16 pm

In post 105, MagnaofIllusion wrote:
In post 103, Saudade wrote:just do it why would a town player self vote ever in his life
Yeah Grey ... this is a live one ...

Come on Mason partner let's do this!!!!

hmmm.

Not entirely on this train buddy. I know your alignment, but trapz hurtz me inside deeply.

I'll pull up a fence and sitz on it.

GreyICE · Post Post #116 (isolation #6) » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:18 pm

In post 113, Cheetory6 wrote:VOTE: gamma
These last few posts don't read at all like towngamma.

Is this town shitpost or scum shitpost?

I mean man I pull up a fence, but you pull up a fucking like hammock and string it between two trees.

Like I sure hope you're not voting someone because their last few posts read like town, so the only thing different between your post and a naked vote is your post is cloaked in words.

GreyICE · Post Post #125 (isolation #7) » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:30 pm

In post 117, Cheetory6 wrote:So much less intonation than you just saying that flavor is scum.

GreyICE · Post Post #127 (isolation #8) » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:31 pm

In post 117, Cheetory6 wrote:So much less intonation than you just saying that flavor is scum.

The same amount actually. But with the appearance of more reasoning!

GreyICE · Post Post #129 (isolation #9) » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:33 pm

In post 124, Cheetory6 wrote:It's mostly just that it's an incredibly overblown reaction to a degree that it just doesn't feel like something he'd actually think/say?

See, cultofathena thinks it feels if anything a bit mild. And I have to say I'd agree. If anything it feels a bit weaksauce.

I mean maybe I'm used to Kuribo and IF THATS A PAGE FOUR HAMMER IM GONNA RIP YOUR SPINE OUT THROUGH YOUR BELLY BUTTON AND FORCE FEED YOU YOUR OWN VERTEBRAE but I dunno.

Like Cult's answer better.

GreyICE · Post Post #131 (isolation #10) » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:48 pm

I always want to lynch you. Like every time I want to day 1 lynch you.

You trigger me.

GreyICE · Post Post #132 (isolation #11) » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:53 pm

Oh I get it. Yep, you can be town.

GreyICE · Post Post #134 (isolation #12) » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:56 pm

No it's not that I'll explain in like a week or so. And it relies on an assumption but I'm good at those.

GreyICE · Post Post #136 (isolation #13) » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:57 pm

Anyway like how cheeky do you think Saudade is?

GreyICE · Post Post #147 (isolation #14) » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:10 pm

In post 143, Hoopla wrote:
In post 137, implosion wrote:Do people like, buy flavor's claim?
I really don't.
I wouldn't be surprised if it's scum bravado, but generally I find town are slightly more willing to unnecessarily leak their role or softclaim in general.

Dats why you know me and MOI are masons

And like it's reeaaaaaallyyy hard not to vote with my mason buddy here but something just doesn't thrill me.

GreyICE · Post Post #152 (isolation #15) » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:33 pm

In post 138, implosion wrote:
In post 136, GreyICE wrote:Anyway like how cheeky do you think Saudade is?
Is this @me?

If it is then idk. Moderately? I haven't played with him.

No hoops. How did you post before me with no Post Preview? I call shenanigans.

GreyICE · Post Post #158 (isolation #16) » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:37 pm

Or it's a desperate attempt to buy town cred with some pretty shitty theater.

If that was your grand genius plan, why don't you give me some thoughts on the game state, rather than polluting the thread with more stale jizz in a gigantic wank fest over what a smart

townie

you are? That would give us more information to lynch scum, yes? Unless the reason was more to show off what a townie town townie you are.

GreyICE · Post Post #166 (isolation #17) » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:29 pm

In post 162, Erika Furudo wrote:Actually lets make my life easier.
If any one of CoA, Implo, and GreyICE has a read on {Hoopla or Cheetory} that can be explained with words please educate me, I will likely sheep right now if it sounds good.
Preferibly all 3 would be nice.

No words, only Zod.

Oh Cheetory is town because I annoyed him.

GreyICE · Post Post #230 (isolation #18) » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:07 pm

I'd settle for you making actual cases if you were town, you don't have to fabricate them.

Or really doing anything.

GreyICE · Post Post #231 (isolation #19) » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:12 pm

In post 198, MagnaofIllusion wrote: Grey - please translate 115 here or in the Mason PT cause you lost me.

"Hah I played my trap card!" is not necessarily townie. What has he done with it, besides sit on his laurels, and tell everyone he's not a bad lynch, but he's totes mcgoat a townie... who can't make cases with his brilliant trap card?

Like, what's my incentive for lynching Saudade over FlavorFlav? Entirely outside the fact Saudade is making me laugh far more frequently, he's fucking on point.

In post 217, Saudade wrote:Also lets get things straight I can say whatever the hell I want

In post 216, Saudade wrote:I'm voting mafia and you're voting town, that's all there is to it really.

I mean maybe it's in his meta, you know what I think of living on meta. This is some real "fuck you I'm town" shit right here. Meanwhile FlavorFlav can't be giving anyone good vibes, right?

GreyICE · Post Post #333 (isolation #20) » Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:49 am

@StefanB: Yes, this is vintage Hoopla. There's a reason I always want to lynch her. However I'd put my confidence in her being town as around 80%. That's not too much better than the 75% default everyone starts with, but oh well.

On the other hand, flavor leaf. tell me more about your read on him. "distracting" is insufficient

GreyICE · Post Post #336 (isolation #21) » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:47 am

Saudade, I admit to not wanting to let you off the hook because my god my Mason buddy is often on to things - he didn't earn his title by sucking at mafia.

You don't seem one for long wall posts, but this leaves me with a degree of curiosity about what you think on the gamestate. Inbetween your unvote of Flavor for {reasons}* you've mentioned that Gamma is playing a surface game, you've mentioned wanting to know more about Implosion, and... hmm. I don't see much else. Do tell, why is it now correct to lynch flavor? Have you learned everything you wish to about Implosion? What are your thoughts on other players?

*reasons never expounded upon

GreyICE · Post Post #338 (isolation #22) » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:08 am

Oh fuck it, I was going to question you BUT HOLY SHIT I'M TIRED OF THIS DAY.

FUCKING FUCK FUCK WHY IS FLAVOR LEAF FUCKING ALIVE

In post 94, Flavor Leaf wrote:I think i’m just VT this game. Who knows.

It's a normal broski. There ain't no crazy mechanics.

In post 107, Flavor Leaf wrote:Just so we don’t have anymore shenanigans, I’ll stop messing around. I’m gonna be away, but I’m not an alignment cop, but I have some sort of weaker investigative role.

In post 223, Flavor Leaf wrote:Lol, just lynch me. Idk how to defend myself here. I’ve done too much stupid stuff.

Imma flip VT, not a PR. It’s fine.

Help I can't figure out my fakeclaim

SHITFUCK JESUS WE KILL THIS

In post 325, Flavor Leaf wrote:I’m town reading Implosion for his explanation on why he’s town reading Saudade.

Because of that.

VOTE: Hoopla

Call it OMGUS, but the post he voted me on seemed like it’s coming from a deep scum agenda.

THE SCUM AGENDA BEING THIS WAGON HOP BECAUSE SAUDADE IS STARTING TO FEEL CRAP

DIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIE

GreyICE · Post Post #341 (isolation #23) » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:37 am

In post 339, Erika Furudo wrote:dude you don't have to disguise your desire to pl boon with anger we all want to do it.

Yeah my policy is to lynch scum. Come help me out.

GreyICE · Post Post #342 (isolation #24) » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:38 am

In post 340, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 336, GreyICE wrote:you've mentioned that Gamma is playing a surface game
are you just gonna take his word for that?

Yes, I always question people about things that I trust them implicitly on.

Are you paranoid people might not town read you?

GreyICE · Post Post #345 (isolation #25) » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:50 am

So me questioning him is me "just following him"?

Walk me through that one, Gamma. How does this work in your head?

GreyICE · Post Post #347 (isolation #26) » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:08 am

Yeah, I'm saying his "reads" such as they are consist of "flavor is scum", Gamma is "surface level" (whatever the hell that means) and Implosion... look, I'll just quote it:

In post 282, Saudade wrote:I like your lines though implosion, you talk the talk.
lets see if your alleged intent aligns with your actions this game =]

I'd normally consider that garbage content but on reviewing the gamestate, I just don't understand today if we let flavor live.

GreyICE · Post Post #349 (isolation #27) » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:45 am

It kind of is. I'm not hating my mason buddy's thought process at all.

But dude, flavor "claimed his role was 'VT probs, but confusing mechanics'" (in a normal?!?)
Then "Weak investigative PR"
Then "VT, please lynch me, I'm like negative utility"

I wanna kill this so bad.

GreyICE · Post Post #351 (isolation #28) » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:50 am

A VT weak investigative role that's confusing in a normal?

GreyICE · Post Post #352 (isolation #29) » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:52 am

Gamma, I mean please be town, I wanna town read you.

But I'd have trouble with that claim in the theme game "El bastardo Moddo and the seven fucked up role PMs"

It's not:

In post 350, Gamma Emerald wrote:Idk I kinda think that a role could exist with all those elements vaguely

GreyICE · Post Post #356 (isolation #30) » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:55 am

In post 353, implosion wrote:
In post 351, GreyICE wrote:A VT weak investigative role that's confusing in a normal?
you seem to have fallen out of the times of the current meta, the kids are calling it a 'neapolitan' these days

Uh... for reference:

In post 94, Flavor Leaf wrote:I think i’m just VT this game. Who knows.

In post 107, Flavor Leaf wrote:Just so we don’t have anymore shenanigans, I’ll stop messing around. I’m gonna be away, but I’m not an alignment cop, but I have some sort of weaker investigative role.

In post 223, Flavor Leaf wrote:Lol, just lynch me. Idk how to defend myself here. I’ve done too much stupid stuff.

Imma flip VT, not a PR. It’s fine.

GreyICE · Post Post #357 (isolation #31) » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:55 am

In post 354, Gamma Emerald wrote:maybe it doesn't fit the whole descprition over all but like loyal something-or-other could work to be investigative and possibly negative utility
Pedit what is that post trying to say greyICE

Your analysis seems surface level

GreyICE · Post Post #361 (isolation #32) » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:18 pm

In post 359, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 358, implosion wrote:the quote was something like "today's modern mafia consumer demands hundreds, nay, thousands of variants of vanilla cops" but i think it was a quote from me. I think someone else (maybe EP?) sigged it.
yeah that's correct
also @GI I guess that might be surface level but I still feel like there's some role that fits within those parameters
the thing is I also think it's so waffly that even though in theory that's possible I still feel like there an inherent scum motivation of creating a confusion for a later claim

See in the back of my head there's this warning siren that is screaming "scum tend to believe townies even when it's obvious they're saying total horseshit"
And then there's this other one that's saying "Townies make the wildest theories, scum tend to shrug their shoulders and say 'yep, that's nonsense' because path of least resistance"

I mean no, it's not possible there's any role that could be mistaken for a VT in a normal, because we've standardized the normal rules and guidelines so stringently that there's no role that could be "basically a VT, but also a weak investigative role." That'd be something like a "Reflexive rolecop", which is the sort of silly thing we have normal committees to avoid. And it's not like UC Voyager even named VTs something funky, just plain ol' Vanilla Townie in the role PM.

Gahhhh... I'm kind of leaning 2 again.

GreyICE · Post Post #362 (isolation #33) » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:19 pm

Also I thought Implosion was one of the people who hates me. Or not, IDK anymore. Been way too long.

GreyICE · Post Post #460 (isolation #34) » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:41 am

Since when does MOI post on weekends? This game is insane.

Unvote

I'm starting to think Flavor Leaf is just... look, the mods already have it out for me, just insert whatever you want here okay? If god is good, we have a vig, and they nail Flavor Leaf between the eyes, then we don't have to worry about this anymore. Vigs are probably in at least 30% of mini normals, I've got to hope they shoot flavor leaf of all people.

Erika clearly joined to play with the old guard. If Erika was scum, I don't see them replacing out because we clearly had no idea what was going on. That means town, or their scumteam is like Saudade/Flavor Leaf and they're just tired of their QT existing. At which point, well, who cares, that scumteam will die anyway.

@Hoopla: just zone out a little if you want to. You're chatting a bit too much theory and a bit too little content, but that's you day 1. You get a free pass to day 2, but you know that comes with a "your neck is on the chopping block very quickly if you don't produce" in the rider clause. Oh and I have lynched MOI day 1. But I wanted him dead, Vi replaced in at the same time as me and rode his ass like a rodeo clown, MOI had replaced into a slot for a newbie who wasn't very good, every scumbag joined in the lynch, and it still took more effort than I really can possibly say. Oh and I blew so much town cred that I still got votes day 2 despite him flipping Mafia Traitor. The chances of that happening here are subzero, and it's a stupid vanity wagon.

@MOI:

I stare at Implosion's posts. I read them. I repeat. I... don't see it. I'm not saying he's not capable of faking this, he's not a bad player, but I can think of probably half a dozen players I'd vote before him. Your logic appears to be that he's buddying Saudade so this is scummy because he thinks Saudade is town. Uh... what? First, if Saudade is town I foresee a future where he doesn't get shot by scum for a long, long time so I certainly think it would behoove townies town reading him to learn to work with him. Second, that logic is flimsy. Third, there's better votes. This one is good:

Vote: StephanB

Hohum.

GreyICE · Post Post #461 (isolation #35) » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:51 am

Spoiler: Also for Hoopla, my record

GreyICE · Post Post #467 (isolation #36) » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:48 am

Oh god are we referencing that ridiculous game I wasn't even in? Hah, no, sorry, has nothing to do with that. I think you'd be an asset to any town you were a part of. Which is part of the problem here. Unfortunately random.org is a harsh mistress, and doesn't alwaye hand out town role pms.

GreyICE · Post Post #514 (isolation #37) » Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:34 am

I'm pretty sure there has never been a statement "one of these four players is scum" that has been worth a damn. I mean just naked, random.org has a 71% chance of generating a list of 4 names that contains at least 1 scum.

But Magna, much more important question. Why is StephanB not on your list of "lonely voters"? If your theory is that scum are just sitting back and letting the Flavor Leaf lynch happen, well certainly a person who is LITERALLY NOT VOTING is doing nothing but that. And yet he misses your list.

Consider the masonry dissolved.

GreyICE · Post Post #573 (isolation #38) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:04 am

In post 551, Flavor Leaf wrote:Part of me has just been thinking the scum team is Hoopla, Implosion, Cheetory. I’m not gonna preflip asso, though...so I’ll stick with hoopla.

If you are town, I want to congratulate you on naming three townies in your scumteam. It's quite the asscomplishment.

Real post in a bit.

GreyICE · Post Post #575 (isolation #39) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:16 am

Is she in your QT, Stefan?

GreyICE · Post Post #577 (isolation #40) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:43 am

Why more people should be voting StephanB

(I'm actually really sad MOI didn't pick up on any of this, this is normally his jam)

I've been watching StephanB since this post. It's a lame entry, but worse than that is the apology. Like he read the medium-length post, realized it was a lame entry to the thread, didn't really want to post more, but felt guilty over that. That's not a behavior I associate with town. It's not a perfect scumtell (bad news, those don't exist) but it makes me notice a person. Now what really started to get to me was this:

In post 196, StefanB wrote:Okay I believed the L-1 to freely he had 4 votes on him, when he selvoted and claimed. (You can call me an idiot for believing in stated L-1 without checking)
Aside from the reaction I have not yet a real read on Flavour.
I stated reads in my first post today.

The post he admitted was not good. Now, what the hell? Town can make a lame post, town can even reread it and go "wow that's a lame post, sorry", but does town then refer back to it as "my reads post" to answer other people's questions? I'll go over some other things that have been bugging me for quite some time:

This epic fence sit.

It's like he realizes Flavor Leaf is playing poorly, but then says "Flavor is obvious messing with us" and "why does Flavor play like he does as scum?"

If Flavor is "obviously messing with us" then why does that make him town? Why does flavor play like that as scum? More to the point, why is he interrogating other people about why flavor does what he does, rather than just asking flavor? It doesn't smell of any scumhunting from Stefan.

So that was bad. What was his response to me voting him?

In post 465, StefanB wrote:Grey: You have pushing the waggon for Flavor all the way to L-1, why stopping now?

Sometimes all you have to do is hold out the noose and see if they stick their head in. For someone who just claimed to have trouble reading Flavor and just claimed to not find the scum motivation for his behavior, it should be GLARINGLY OBVIOUS why I stopped voting him instead of pushing for hammer. Especially when I say this in my vote change post:

In post 460, GreyICE wrote:I'm starting to think Flavor Leaf is just... look, the mods already have it out for me, just insert whatever you want here okay? If god is good, we have a vig, and they nail Flavor Leaf between the eyes, then we don't have to worry about this anymore. Vigs are probably in at least 30% of mini normals, I've got to hope they shoot flavor leaf of all people.

This just feels like "why can't you make today easy?"

GreyICE · Post Post #578 (isolation #41) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:44 am

In post 576, Cheetory6 wrote:VOTE: stefan
everyone pretend that this vote came before stefan's last posts because it has nothing to do with them

You're stealing my thunder, man.

But goodvoting anyway? Not that you have to work harder to convince me you're town or something

GreyICE · Post Post #579 (isolation #42) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:47 am

(Also I promise less playing Slay the Spire, more goodposting)

GreyICE · Post Post #584 (isolation #43) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:09 am

You're beating that drum super hard, Stefan. I never said you were a bad player. I was never rude to you. If you think not answering a question is rudeness, I hate to break it to you, I do not answer 100% of questions in mafia. Or probably even 50%. The above was me answering a question MOI asked me a while ago, and that was delayed quite a bit.

But let me turn that question back around:

In post 521, StefanB wrote:The Flavourwagon: I have Saudade and Cheetory as town.

Hoopla is Hoopla.

Gamma doesn't feel that diferent from his town-meta.

Leaves Implosion or Hoopla the last I can't read.

Who fits the go with the flow the best.

In post 571, StefanB wrote:Okay Cheetory, Hoopla: WTF?
Okay rediculling Flavors theory makes sense, but this is very strange clowning around.
Why are you two implying that you are mafia and whith each other?
I know Hoopla is imposible to read blabla, will be nk blabla, you can't get her if she is scum.

Anyone really has anythink that this is town-Hoopla?

So you can't read Hoopla? Okay. Then why are you eager to vote her and slow to vote Flavor Leaf? Because you yourself said you couldn't figure out what he was doing. And let me assure you, Hoopla on day 3 is useful. Flavor Leaf on day 3... look, no experience, but I just don't see it happening if you know what I mean.

PEdit: Sorry, I fucking suck at names, they're like pronunciation (ask my wife how often I mispronounce things). It's why I use nicknames so often. And I thought I had yours too.

GreyICE · Post Post #597 (isolation #44) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:36 am

Hey pothead, I'm town but my case sucks?

What would I be doing differently if I were scum, pray tell?

GreyICE · Post Post #609 (isolation #45) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:46 pm

@MOI: Sometimes you replace in and get very strong reads. If anything it's a strong town tell, since if you really haven't read much then you don't know if it's a good read to have, whether you're derailing a townie lynch or putting yourself in the line of fire for a buddy going down or what. Town has none of these concerns, and sometimes you just get a really strong read right away. I remember Divided Germany mafia where I replaced in and had exactly one read worth a fig because I wasn't going to bother to read all 80 pages of day 1 or whatever. It just happens. Speaking of, this is starting to remind me of Divided Germany in more ways than one, you're not being hyper-cheeky with the Buffy reference, are you?

GreyICE · Post Post #611 (isolation #46) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:51 pm

Saudade wasn't on site since his post in the thread. I'm thinking that might be an AFK tell, although the content has been... lacking.

On the other hand, COA has to do more than have a few "need to catch up" posts to shake my town read in him.

GreyICE · Post Post #615 (isolation #47) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:50 pm

I'm super sad. Senpai forgot!

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=21379&hilit=divided+germany

GreyICE · Post Post #621 (isolation #48) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:27 pm

You are scum, aren't you?

Jeez.

GreyICE · Post Post #622 (isolation #49) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:27 pm

Okay, $20 bet, MOI, Flavor Leaf, StefanB. That's my money, that's where it's at.

GreyICE · Post Post #623 (isolation #50) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:48 pm

@Cheetory, Hiraki, Implosion, Gamma: Which way do you want to go? You're the players I think are doing the best and the overall strongest, and I'd like to work with you. I think lynching MOI is negative EV for today (as my wife would say), because even if I think there's a 60% chance he's scum, the scum will STILL end up shooting him if we're wrong.

@Hoopla: You should sheep whatever we decide. Not lynching you is the only positive EV you have with the way you play day 1s. I think you're town because of voodoo, but even that's a weak read, and Stefan complaining why he's being wagoned while you get a pass is scumplaining, but also you look like an easy target because you are playing like an easy target.

GreyICE · Post Post #624 (isolation #51) » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:49 pm

In post 534, Hoopla wrote:
VOTE: CultofAthena

Also fine with lynching Hiraki, Prism, Stefan, Erika, though probably not Cheetory since a lot of his reads are lining up with how I'm viewing the game, and he was very willing to help out ol' Hoopla with a Flavor vote when I put out the request. Makes me think he'll be easy to boss around later, which is good for me, both from a game PoV and a fun PoV.

Hoopla, when did Flavor vanish from this list?

GreyICE · Post Post #652 (isolation #52) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:57 am

In post 630, Hoopla wrote:
In post 623, GreyICE wrote:@Hoopla: You should sheep whatever we decide. Not lynching you is the only positive EV you have with the way you play day 1s. I think you're town because of voodoo, but even that's a weak read, and Stefan complaining why he's being wagoned while you get a pass is scumplaining, but also you look like an easy target because you are playing like an easy target.
I probably will once things get serious and the new realistic lynch choices become more clear. At the moment it feels like we're still waiting for the dust to settle from the Flavor wagon dissipating.

In post 624, GreyICE wrote:Hoopla, when did Flavor vanish from this list?
I agreed with the logic that the way Flavor's wagon stalled out with no counterwagons, it was likely he was town. Given I only ever had him at neutral-ish when I wanted to lynch him, this was enough to tip things in his favour.

Walk me through this one then. Flavor's wagon stalled out, and that makes him town. So why did the wagon stall? Was:

A) Three scum on the wagon and the town wasn't buying it?
B) Two scum already on the wagon, and a third didn't want to all dogpile?
C) Only one scum on the wagon, and the others were avoiding it?
D) No scum on the wagon, and they decided to hard defend flavor leaf?

With some inactive players, could you conclude that lack of a counterwagon would be lack of Flavor providing any worthwhile counterwagon? Is it possible scum-Flavor was bussed by his buddies? My observation is that scum tend to find other scum scummy, and mucking up a fakeclaim is as scummy as it gets besides.

I'd like you to expound on the logic here.

GreyICE · Post Post #654 (isolation #53) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:07 am

In post 653, Hiraki wrote:I'm pretty sure I'm good on my implosion vote. Haven't liked his reaction to my points one bit. Prism makes me feel weird. Hoopla is a good second ATM. Need to read cult and saud more

Are you okay with the fact that Hoopla is Implosion's second pick for a lynch target too?

GreyICE · Post Post #657 (isolation #54) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:40 am

Okay, part 1 done. I'll have to wait a bit for part 2, but this will someday be relevant.

GreyICE · Post Post #658 (isolation #55) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:58 am

For reference you can ignore the above. It's only there because I'll make an explanation later, and people will say "GreyICE you're making shit up, there's no way you could have known any of that".

Well you can say that anyway, but w/e

GreyICE · Post Post #685 (isolation #56) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:52 am

In post 665, Flavor Leaf wrote:The fact that Hoopla isn’t getting more attention shows Stefan is town. If Stefan were scum, this Hoopla wagon would be taking off more due to scum buddies, but it shows that scum is okay with Stefan being lynched.

Since you are scum, this means less than nothing.

GreyICE · Post Post #686 (isolation #57) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:54 am

I am having fun watching FlavorLeaf gather a counterwagon to Stefan on Hoopla, at the same time he insists Stefan is town because there aren't any scum pushing a counterwagon on Hoopla.

Cheeky doesn't even BEGIN to cover how obvious this is.

GreyICE · Post Post #689 (isolation #58) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:01 am

You know Flavor, you keep pushing that bandwagon. "Suboptimally". A way to buddy me, while discrediting me. My reads are excellent, and I have a long history of pushing wagons through to the end.

What you have done here, Flavor, is made it obvious to more people than me what your alignment is when Stefan flips scum. That's your actual mistake. See, I know you're scumbuddies, but you can just shoot me - I'm used to it, I get shot N1 or N2 as often as Magna does. But here, you've tied yourself to Stefan in an overwhelmingly obvious way, by trying to lead the counterwagon to save him (while insisting that the counterwagon doesn't exist!). That was "suboptimal".

GreyICE · Post Post #691 (isolation #59) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:15 am

One thinks.

1. If you are scum, would you post that you were scum?

GreyICE · Post Post #693 (isolation #60) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:23 am

Stefan, do you know his amazing case on Hoopla?

In post 325, Flavor Leaf wrote:I’m town reading Implosion for his explanation on why he’s town reading Saudade.

Because of that.

VOTE: Hoopla

Call it OMGUS, but the post he voted me on seemed like it’s coming from a deep scum agenda.

That's literally it. That's the amazing case on Hoopla. He's devoted 10x as many posts to defending you as he has to trying to get "scum" lynched. That's literally it. That's the only thing he's ever said as to why she's scum. Holy fuck, he knows so little

he can't even pin down her gender.

And Hoopla isn't exactly an unknown on MS.

Prior to this vote, this was his case on Hoopla:

In post 78, Flavor Leaf wrote:I think I’m town reading hoopla. The way she’s doing everything doesn’t seem like it’s coming from scum.

Yeah Stefan, this is a person who should be lynched for being scum. He was a shitty buddy to draw, and I'm sorry you got him.

GreyICE · Post Post #694 (isolation #61) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:29 am

In post 679, Cheetory6 wrote:VOTE: hoopla
im willing to do this specifically so that the one scum in implosion/myself tenet cannot be collapsed into just me being scum.

sorry partner.
if i had it my way i wouldnt lynch the funner person in the game even if i think youre maybe more likely scum than not.

I can explain Hoopla's play, I can't explain it now. Trust me on this one. I think she's town. I'm willing to look elsewhere, but that's the wrong tree. Not the least reason which, please look at what FlavorLeaf has said about the wagon.

GreyICE · Post Post #697 (isolation #62) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:51 am

And Cheetory, this is why you're voting with a scumbag. Look at what happens when I ask him to vocalize why Hoopla is scum. A wall post about how awesome he is and how bad I suck. Anything on why Hoopla is scum? Nope.

Still want to be voting with him?

GreyICE · Post Post #703 (isolation #63) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:57 am

In post 699, Flavor Leaf wrote:
In post 697, GreyICE wrote:And Cheetory, this is why you're voting with a scumbag. Look at what happens when I ask him to vocalize why Hoopla is scum. A wall post about how awesome he is and how bad I suck. Anything on why Hoopla is scum? Nope.

Still want to be voting with him?

I’ve already explained my reasonings,

Quote the post where you did this you lying scumbag.

Vote:Flavor Leaf

GreyICE · Post Post #704 (isolation #64) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:57 am

QUOTE THE FUCKING POST

DO IT FLAVOR

DO IT

OR THIS IS A DEATH TUNNEL AND I WILL FUCKING END YOU

GreyICE · Post Post #708 (isolation #65) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:59 am

QUOTE THE FUCKING POST LIAR

GreyICE · Post Post #709 (isolation #66) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:00 am

Cheetory: HE NEVER MADE ANY POST

HE HAS NO REASONS

LYNCH HIM WITH ME.

GreyICE · Post Post #710 (isolation #67) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:00 am

This is not "policy." You lied. You lied, because you are scum, and because you are scum you are still trying to spin this.

You lied, Flavor. You cannot quote any post with any reasons. Feel free to prove me wrong.

GreyICE · Post Post #712 (isolation #68) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:09 am

Oh dear Flavor, do you need some input from your buddies before you answer me? Come on, don't be shy. It'd be so easy to quote those posts you made where you " already explained my reasonings". Just look through your ISO, find them, and quote them. Then I really do look suboptimal, don't I?

Unless of course those posts don't exist. Then you'd need to hack the server or borrow a time machine. Those posts do exist, don't they? You're not lying to us, are you?

GreyICE · Post Post #724 (isolation #69) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:38 pm

In post 720, Cheetory6 wrote:
In post 709, GreyICE wrote:Cheetory: HE NEVER MADE ANY POST

HE HAS NO REASONS

LYNCH HIM WITH ME.
is the possibility that flavor is like.. terrible town a possibility in your mind?

Then why did he lie about his statements on Hoopla? He's not trying to address me - someone he's claimed is town. He's trying to rebut me, to get to the night phase.

Look at this shit:

In post 718, Flavor Leaf wrote:Also, I stopped caring enough to read your fluffy fabricated posts that have no merit and aren’t AI.

This is caught scum

GreyICE · Post Post #726 (isolation #70) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:45 pm

Okay, you won't mind if I don't give your lack of ability to explain your blatant lie much credence.

And I notice through all this flailing you still haven't bothered to explain your read.

GreyICE · Post Post #736 (isolation #71) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:11 pm

In post 730, Flavor Leaf wrote:
In post 728, Hiraki wrote:Can you just address his question and stop talking about him? Is that possible?
I actually think it helps show how Town on Town we are. What was his question again?

Hi friends, this is no joke. This is his actual motivation. He doesn't want to get his scumread lynched, he wants to appear more town.

GreyICE · Post Post #738 (isolation #72) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:39 pm

In that unlikely event? We ignore your Hoopla read because you never explained it (despite claiming you did). We ignore your other reads, because you never bother to explain them either. The volume of spam vastly decreases, and the game improves.

Now in the event you're scum? All that, we gain more insight into Hoopla's alignment, and oh yeah - dead scum.

Seems like a winner is me.

In post 699, Flavor Leaf wrote:
In post 697, GreyICE wrote:And Cheetory, this is why you're voting with a scumbag. Look at what happens when I ask him to vocalize why Hoopla is scum. A wall post about how awesome he is and how bad I suck. Anything on why Hoopla is scum? Nope.

Still want to be voting with him?
I’ve already explained my reasonings...

GreyICE · Post Post #741 (isolation #73) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:51 pm

GreyICE · Post Post #742 (isolation #74) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:52 pm

Oh give me a break. If you wanted your reads to be taken seriously you'd have engaged with my question any one of the times you asked it.

This is just worthless scumplaining from caught scum.

GreyICE · Post Post #744 (isolation #75) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:58 pm

Odd, you could have dodged this all by just answering my question and explaining your reads. Of course that would have given me insight into how you're thinking this game. Instead you doubled down on the bluster, insults, and threats.

I have every interest in the 1v1, I have no problem with your "town read" on me vanishing, and I am happy to declare a death tunnel.

GreyICE · Post Post #753 (isolation #76) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:54 pm

Hoopla(4) ~ Flavor Leaf(110), StefanB(52), Cheetory6(75) {Cult of Athena}
Flavor Leaf(3) ~ Saudade(79), GreyIce(76), Gamma Emerald(83)
StefanB(2) ~ MagnaOfIllusion(36), implosion(55)

Well the Hoopla wagon is developing the fine odor of a rotted corpse. I don't think there's a person in the game except maybe Flavor Leaf who'd be willing to back that being 4 townies. Or even 3.

MOI, I'll call temporary truce or whatever to unify on one of these two (unless you want to try to sell me on Implosion again... not feeling it honestly).

GreyICE · Post Post #755 (isolation #77) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:01 pm

Hey, could you explain your Hoopla read?

GreyICE · Post Post #759 (isolation #78) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:13 pm

Okay, you know what, fuck it. I've taken a break, I've cooled off. And the more I look at it, the more this looks like a classic GreyICE mislynch target.

- Irritating player.
- Playing mechanically poorly
- Fakeclaim shenanigans
- Boom, trap card
- "FUCK YOU I DON'T GIVE A SHIT"
- "Cases are for people who give fucks, instead here's a magnifying glass so you can view my erect penis in all its glory"
- "I'm just going to make shit up because you annoy me!"

Uh, sometimes this does flip scum, I don't want to undersell it. But man, people like cult showing up to just say "either wagon works" scares me.

Vote: StefanB

I'll try to be the bigger person. This was my actual good read, and fuck it.

Although if anyone wants to flash wagon CultofAthena at this point, well, you say the word and I will join that shit so fast you don't even understand what I mean. That vote and that ISO are a lot scarier than I was giving it credit for.

GreyICE · Post Post #760 (isolation #79) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:15 pm

In post 112, Hoopla wrote:I unironically think we should have lynched Flavor Leaf then, because I know the alternative will end up being a gruelling 50 page Day 1 with a deadline flashwagon.

Look, we could even prove Hoopla right with a random cult flashwagon.

Then if he flips scum she can blame it on "luck"

GreyICE · Post Post #761 (isolation #80) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:20 pm

Gosh like... This is why I missed Fate. Once I town read him, he was a rock I could set my sails by. I mean yes, sometimes that was telling him he was full of shit, but he was kind of a lighthouse, y'know? A beacon illuminating the game.

MOI usually is that for me, but either the lighthouse is weak or the fog is unusually thick.

GreyICE · Post Post #766 (isolation #81) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:49 pm

Okay, fuck it. If I were to write a textbook on lurker scum it'd probably look like this. At least Stefan is trying, and I respect that.

Vote: CultofAthena

GreyICE · Post Post #771 (isolation #82) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:50 pm

I quoted it like 4 times. He said he had explained the Hoopla vote. He hadn't. To date, the entire explanation appears to be "wagon composition".
Now mind telling me why my vote on Flavor is good, but you need to challenge me, and have no comment about cult? Because gosh, that's a good feeling.

GreyICE · Post Post #773 (isolation #83) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:06 pm

Hey quick quiz, don't check ISO. Who are you voting for?

GreyICE · Post Post #775 (isolation #84) » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:46 pm

Follow up: you like questions. What questions have you asked Hoopla, to develop such a strong read?

GreyICE · Post Post #782 (isolation #85) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:24 am

1964 - VT claim, 2-shot BP claim, lynch on an unclaimed mafioso
1961 - No claims at all, lynch on an unclaimed VT
1954 - Neighbouriser claim, lynch on town neighbouriser
1952 - VT claim, lynch on VT
1951 - Non-Consecutive Night JK claims, lynch on an unclaimed VT
1948 - No claims at all, lynch on an unclaimed 2-shot Friendly Neighbour (lol)
1946 - Miller claim, VT claim, lynch on VT
1943 - Watcher claim, 1-shot Dayvig softclaim, lynch on Mafia Watcher
1940 - No claims at all, lynch on an unclaimed VT
1938 - Doctor fakeclaim (actually a VT lol), lynch on an unclaimed VT
1934 - Vig claim, Jailkeeper softclaim, Unspecified "Town PR" claim, town run out of time for a lynch (lol)
1931 - VT claim, lynch on VT

This is fucking horrifying, and a good indication this queue should have some basic housecleaning.

GreyICE · Post Post #786 (isolation #86) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:41 am

God there's about a 0% chance Stefan is town.

GreyICE · Post Post #788 (isolation #87) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:47 am

Fine, -5% chance. There you go, happy now?

GreyICE · Post Post #796 (isolation #88) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:52 am

Please don't add to the list of stupid shit derp hammers that Hoopla made.

GreyICE · Post Post #798 (isolation #89) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:54 am

Like I used to advocate "hammer without claim!" back when site meta was to be held hostage to every two-bit scumbag that claim stalled - back when it was possible for people to just claim stall until the wagon fell apart, then say "now I don't have to claim!"

Today it seems like the basics like "maybe if we hammer a friendly neighbor we are in fact morons" need to be remembered.

Also I'm sad to find myself agreeing with Hoopla more than I'd like to.

GreyICE · Post Post #803 (isolation #90) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:55 pm

Fine, whatever Magna. I probably owe you this, and it's still a good lynch.

Vote: Flavor

GreyICE · Post Post #804 (isolation #91) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:55 pm

ugh no wait

what are the odds you're scum?

GreyICE · Post Post #805 (isolation #92) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:56 pm

Oh right, like 90%

Vote: Cult

GreyICE · Post Post #806 (isolation #93) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:12 pm

I have had little to say about Cult too, I note. As have most people. Why?

In post 606, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Cult has moved into Null for me … too little content this stage to continue giving him a Town read.

Yes, this.

GreyICE · Post Post #814 (isolation #94) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:43 pm

Nice claim.

No longer care if someone hammers this scumbag. This is an example of when it's fine to hammer without claim.

GreyICE · Post Post #819 (isolation #95) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:52 pm

I mean at this point he posted without claim. It's not a quickhammer anymore, he's claim stalling. I'm super fine with watching claim stallers die.

GreyICE · Post Post #820 (isolation #96) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:52 pm

What's the ol' DGB line about claiming your role PM taking seconds, but fabricating the perfect fakeclaim taking forever? That.

GreyICE · Post Post #822 (isolation #97) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:14 pm

Prism, please just hammer the guy who at L-1 decided to show up to vote his counterwagon and then claim stall with a VLA

GreyICE · Post Post #825 (isolation #98) » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:35 pm

After that response Prism, I'm hyper fine getting lynched tomorrow if COA flips town. That was 100% scum, and I'll bet anything on it.

Are you okay getting lynched if he flips scum?

GreyICE · Post Post #873 (isolation #99) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:04 am

In post 827, Prism wrote:
In post 825, GreyICE wrote:After that response Prism,
I'm hyper fine getting lynched tomorrow if COA flips town.
That was 100% scum, and I'll bet anything on it.
I doubt it.

I feel like you know what a mislynch is worth and this bravado is forced. I don't know if I'd go as far to say inspired by my play from Miss List but you definitely realize the value of a bluff and I don't think this is genuine.

You know man, I was not bad in miss list. Not perfect, you did win, but I think I'd have earned at least SOME respect for my reads off that game, y'know?

I mean this is all chest pounding now that he's hammered, either I'm right or I'm wrong. I'd just bet on me being right.

You're not wrong on MOI though, that is a fruitful ground. But do you think scum-MOI hammers town that way? Especially if, say, Flavor or Hoopla is town? Nahhhh, he hammered a buddy my friend.

By the by, I like town you. I think I might just like you as a player in general.

GreyICE · Post Post #874 (isolation #100) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:11 am

In post 868, Piplup wrote:7 vote counts over 850 posts? That's extremely light.

Eh this game took 4 days to start, the mod just missed a lynch when he posted, it's important to set the bar at the right spot. Mine is at "I'm happy if there's no gamechanging mod errors"

GreyICE · Post Post #876 (isolation #101) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:57 am

When I'm dead, plz don't forget moi

GreyICE · Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:38 am

Hmmm. Tempted to just go to Flavor Leaf or MOI. I don't think there was anything wrong with my reads yesterday. Cult was free, cult was an easy wagon to put together. I'd like to hear a tad more out of Hiraki, and not just because I like him. Cheetory is a pretty confident scum shot here though, he's a good player who was being universally town read.

Actually Flavor Leaf seems really, really good as a pick for scum. This is the sort of post I'd expect out of a scumbuddy:

In post 748, CultOfAthena wrote:My current reads are that this day needs to end and I'm fine with both of the leading wagons.

Unvote

Vote: Hoopla

Oh and I can finally explain the Hoopla townread, because her fucking game ended!

GreyICE · Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:51 am

TLDR: Hoopla was in a C9++, where she used similar posts to start off the day. Here, I'll compare:

In post 130, Hoopla wrote:
In post 122, Flavor Leaf wrote:This only happens if I’m scum or am getting pushed by stubborn town relentlessly despite the contrary to reasons why I would be mechanically town.

I don’t care if people scum read me, just accept you can be wrong and be willing to at least try to work it out.
It's less about your alignment, and more about avoiding an avalanche of pages pre-flips. I am pretty shamelessly in favour of policy/utility lynching anyone not a town read. Anyway, the wind seems to be blowing in Saudade's direction, so...

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Saudade

In post 319, Hoopla wrote:Now, ol' Hoopla was never a big D1 gamesolver -- when I was recording stats back in the day, D1 lynchrates were worse than random at one point, which is why I've always been in favour of policy lynching or utility lynching on D1. There's nobody that really qualifies for policy lynching (yet) as we unfortunately can't lynch the Innocent Babby, and it's too early to lynch all lurkers.

Frankly, I don't trust my read of the gamestate before flips, especially when I'm in the dark re: current meta, so I'm going to make a wild declaration here and say I'm just going to sheep whoever sounds like they know what they're talking about.

Gamma, have you played with Kop much? Are you a beacon of wisdom that I should be bowing to? (be honest)

I was like "what she doing, wait... I think I know, let me check..."

In post 132, GreyICE wrote:Oh I get it. Yep, you can be town.

There's this ugly moment when you're scum in one game and town in another that you have to make sure your town game nominally matches your scum game. This gets amplified in LyLo, where smart people are ripping everything to shreds to find ANYTHING to give them a hint. Hoopla was obviously scum in that other game, and I feel she's town here.

GreyICE · Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:52 am

That's not to say "Give Hoopla a free ride to endgame!" because she knows one of her mistakes in the other game was looking too townie, but I'm still not interested in the lynch today.

Hmm.

Vote: MOI

GreyICE · Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:00 am

In post 898, Gamma Emerald wrote:I don't really want to lynch MoI. On-wagon kill implies off wagon scum and all that.

This is fucking nonsense.

No.

Really.

This is nonsense.

Gamma, are you town?

GreyICE · Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:06 am

Any tell like that becomes worthless upon contact with the enemy. For instance a you/MOI scumteam might shoot a universal town read on the wagon for exactly that reason.

So talk to me. Your vote stayed on Saudade so long it rotted. Then it flipped over to Flavor Leaf when it looked like he was going down, then was around midway to later on the cult wagon. Today you're not voting. So... what are you thinking. I haven't exactly been overwhelmed by your presence in this game if I'm being honest.

GreyICE · Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:07 am

Oh there was an Erica vote in there, but that was a vote on a player literally not in the game so that's really unproductive.

GreyICE · Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:23 am

Vote: Gamma Emerald

I'm going to leave this here then.

GreyICE · Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:07 pm

Really having a problem scumreading prism with the posthammer stuff. I mean I've been wrong on him before, but it felt like town who was genuinely annoyed at the cult flashwagon. If there's one person making hay about the "awful flashwagon" it's Piplup. Erika is a good scumpick. The game wasn't that disheartening, but if Eddie Cane wanted to change his entire posting style and make a new account for it, getting clotheslined by a scumgame when you don't even know what your new town game should look like is pretty disheartening.

Cheetory feels like the sort of person LLD would shoot, to the point where I'm wondering if someone's channeling her spirit. It's a weird shot.

I'd REALLY love to see more from Saudade.

GreyICE · Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:21 pm

Believe me or don't, I don't mind. I don't speculate much though.

LLD has this weird habit of making very odd scum kills that work out for her, and Cheetory was a very odd scum kill indeed.

GreyICE · Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:40 pm

I mean. I could just vote Flavor. It's an idea. It's an idea I really don't mind. It would make my day 1 play look fantastic if it was Stefan, Flavor, Cult.

But gosh, do they not shoot me if that's the case? Not shoot MOI? Shoot Cheetory instead? I dunno man, that seems like the low EV play.

Something weird happened here, and I should look at my reads again.

GreyICE · Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:43 pm

Unvote

Implosion is town
Prism is town
Hoopla is town

Despite my vote, I feel kinda good about Gamma. I'm kind of sad that my town reads start petering out though, usually on day 2 I can list off half the players without hitting scum.
Huh, where does that leave me?

GreyICE · Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:48 pm

I know you do. It was pretty fucking fun to bait you yesterday. You really thought he was flipping town too.

GreyICE · Post Post #925 (isolation #114) » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:00 pm

I kind of have this gut townread on Hiraki, but I don't know if it's just because I like the dude. It's really, really weak.
Cult of Athena voting MOI post 1 makes me even more uncomfortable about MOI. If that's possible. I'm a hare's breath from throwing down a vote.

In post 178, CultOfAthena wrote: The idea of you doing this as a reaction test to get reads on people who vote you rings a little hollow when your only read is still just FL being scum.

Makes me feel better about Saudade. A lot better. But wow he has to work to get in the town pile still. Ehhhh... prolly town. The nonvote in the middle was wagon hovering at its finest. Really not interested in lynching him today, but gosh I hope the content picks way up.

UC, please send out a mass daystart email. After the clusterfuck of last night you absolutely need to.

Erika worries me.

In post 160, Erika Furudo wrote:CoA and Implo are my locktowns
GreyICE is likely town too
Gamma is likely town too but waffle
Saudade is probs town
Hoopla and Keely give me headaches
Boon can get pl'd honestly its a good pl. Its either scum or does stupid shit like this.
VOTE: MoI

and um I think everyone else is irrelevant.

Why was COA such a townread? Being wrong isn't a scumtell, but being that certain with that little with no attempt to interact is bad.

Gosh, narrowing in on 5 town out of 10, that's still not enough.

GreyICE · Post Post #927 (isolation #115) » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:07 pm

Flavor Leaf
StefanB
Erika Furudo
MagnaOfIllusion
------
Hiraki

I mean I can be fooled, I'm capable of being fooled. But gosh, I'm happy with that list.

GreyICE · Post Post #974 (isolation #116) » Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:53 pm

You know, if I was scum I'd say yes, MOI. I've had epic screaming matches with Fate that I won. I'm really not scared of one. It'd actually be kind of fun, in a weird way.

But if you remember MST3K mafia and why neither of us were shot, something does occur to me. And I just can't get over Cult of Athena at the top of the town list. Cult of Athena. Why would they be your strongest town read? It is a thing that does not make sense. Eddie Cane doesn't seem to have any particular history with them in either incarnation, and its not like Cult's posts were good. I mean the first thing Prism wanted to do practically was lynch the fuck out of Cult.

Vote: Piplup

Feels bad because this new player is WAY stronger than the old slot, but stronger and town are not the same thing.

GreyICE · Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:34 am

The interaction between Erika and COA was paper thin. Paper fucking thin.

I remember the first game I played with you, you drove me nuts. It was ASOIF and I hated everything you posted. It was nonsensical, it was absurdist, reading it made my eyes bleed. None of it made a lick of sense. I didn't understand how someone could write so much and analyze so little.

Then I played other games with you and you became one of my favorite players. Deep thoughts, good analysis, really, really centered play that pointed out things I never thought of. Like things I wouldn't have thought of in a week of analysis. The difference was night and day. Or, if you will, green and red.

Vote: MagnaofIllusion

GreyICE · Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:12 am

Have fun doing that MOI. I'll be here, long after you're gone.

Well, probably just about one night phase, but c'est la vie.

GreyICE · Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:50 am

Stefan, go through COA and Erika's post history, and find their interaction. Remember, there's "way too much of it for them to be partners".

Feel free to quote all of it, even if there's "way too much". I don't mind a wall post here.

GreyICE · Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:37 am

Stefan, it's more that I'd love you to go through and then do my work for me.

Because I think you'd see it's a convincing reason to vote MOI right there.

GreyICE · Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:03 am

*sigh*

Magna, are you town?

GreyICE · Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:21 am

Ugh. Reading Magna's logic, and it's unfortunately not bad. It's thin, but I see where he's coming from. In contrast, his setup spec is awful beyond all compare, he should be locked up for that sort of nonsense. But I'm not looking to block any lines of communication, so I'm not going to mock it too hard.

If we assume it's not Piplup, then this day just becomes obvious. FOS Scum, Vote Town.

Vote:Flavor leaf

GreyICE · Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:27 am

In post 1068, MagnaofIllusion wrote:
In post 1064, GreyICE wrote:In contrast, his setup spec is awful beyond all compare, he should be locked up for that sort of nonsense. But I'm not looking to block any lines of communication, so I'm not going to mock it too har
Well I’d argue that it isn’t really set-up spec since Stefan was the one who brought up how likely Daytalk is and needed to be reminded of Normal Site rules but … we can discuss this postgame as it really isn’t relevant to finding scum.

--

I think you're missing the key factor here, which is speculation about the scum having a roleblocker. As far as I understand it, scum roleblockers have dropped off significantly ever since it was shown that setups with a scum roleblocker were heavily scum favored. I don't think we should assume so quickly that they have one in setup analysis. While I'm not inclined to ignore cries of "I was roleblocked" completely, as it does happen, I don't think it's an excuse for everyone to have a get out of jail free card.

GreyICE · Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:09 am

I'm sorry friends, I was sick yesterday. Not exactly better, but better enough I can read things without a pounding headache. I promise some TLC to this game.

I'm still not convinced Magna is town, and I'm VERY good at reading Magna-town, but I've seen enough that I might give the benefit of the doubt today. That being said, I'm really really not sold on it.

GreyICE · Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:25 am

Loyal MD is pretty much a better cop, since you only get results if you target townies. I'd say I can't believe the mini normal review committee would allow an upgraded cop into the game, but I've proven to have literally zero understanding of the current mini normal review committee. My impression is that they couldn't balance a brick on farmer's field, since the shit they've thrown out as "fine" literally hurts me.

I believe MOI's claim 110% for the record.

GreyICE · Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:26 am

By the by if I derailed a scum lynch onto a scum lynch I'm going to laugh really hard.

GreyICE · Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:30 am

Then after all the shit you pulled you're an excellent lynch and I regret nothing.

GreyICE · Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:37 am

Today Gamma, we are all "what the fuck"

I'm with MOI 100% here.

GreyICE · Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:46 am

No, different is not better. You're just bad.

GreyICE · Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:47 am

At the end of the day, regardless of your alignment, you accomplished nothing and got yourself lynched. Blame everyone else all you want, but maybe the issue here is that what you did was fucking stupid, and fakeclaiming is an auto lynch in all circumstances.

GreyICE · Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:49 am

Like... what are we supposed to do? Leave a fakeclaim alive because scum should get a mulligan on their claims if it contradicts another townie? No. You claim something that's not true, you die. It's one of the oldest rules of mafia, and it's one of the oldest because scum HAVE to claim things that are not true. They are forced to. Town never has to claim things that are not true. If you choose to claim things that are not true, you are choosing to play like scum. You better be very certain your gambit is worth it. What your gambit did here is out a town power role. That's certainly decent play for scum that's going down, but if you did that as town, you need to reconsider your life choices.

GreyICE · Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:41 am

Hi MOI, results?

Also why are both of us still alive?

GreyICE · Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:22 am

In post 1388, Gamma Emerald wrote:So whoever is scum thinks it is more important to kill people confirmed off of interactions. Seems worth noting.

Over a claimed power role?

Still sitting here waiting for the results.

GreyICE · Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:07 pm

Frame me by shooting the person who said she was positive I was town?

How the hell does that frame me?

Vote: Implosion

I might have more later, but for now I'm distracted by another game and my vote does some good here.

GreyICE · Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:21 am

Vote: StefanB

GreyICE · Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:56 am

In post 1430, StefanB wrote:Anyone else here that knows much about Mini Normal setupdisign? Both people who are somewhat experts just requested replacement.
(I would have asked against a weak town, which I am currently thinking about because of reason, what makes more sense to give the scum as powerrole roleblocker or tracker?)

Stefan, what's the possible pro-town benefit of asking this?

GreyICE · Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:59 am

In what possible universe does scum-MOI counterclaim town Flavor?

What's your thoughts on Implosion's replace out?

GreyICE · Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:16 am

So do you think MOI's play resembles coasting? I'm especially interested because of this:

In post 1404, StefanB wrote:Lets bite, what do you find so fishy about:
1. MoI is a tracker.
2. I don't think there is scum-motivation to track Saudade.
3. Scum neither killing nor roleblocking a claimed tracker is odd, if they did it the night before when he was unclaimed.

And I don't think anyone ecept Hiraki really exspecteded Flavor to flipp town.
How did you know Hiraki?

So what is the scum motivation to track Saudade? I mean we have to assume that if MOI is scum, then he's the scum tracker or Rolecop, because otherwise claiming that he'd tracked someone and they'd gone nowhere would be a pretty painful way to just suicide. It's not fakeable like cop is, and with one more scum lynch it becomes just as good as a cop, which would make it very unlikely for MOI to survive. So this seems unlikely.

My assumption of what happened is that scum planned to submit the roleblock on MOI tonight and then push him today with "PR that never delivers any results" and someone derped up. Maybe they tried to submit the action for their buddy and Nexus only accepts personal action submissions, maybe someone forgot to send a PM, maybe someone had a plan, then did something else in a brainfart moment.

GreyICE · Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:17 am

In post 1425, Hiraki wrote:Can we do Stefan tomorrow Grey? still on my implosion tunnel

I'd like to see where the day takes us.

GreyICE · Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:53 am

Are town watchers a thing nowadays? God they're tilting and unbalanced. Still, more town power is the trend, and watcher is a terrifying answer to roleblocker.

I have zero interest in a Saudade lynch, as should you, since the only scenario he's scum is one where the scum roleblocker failed to submit an action, or there's a Ninja. I mean we can revise that if we get more info, but right now he's pretty clear. The thing that gives me the most pause about MOI is he thinks there's a scum roleblocker, he claimed to track Saudade going nowhere, and wants to vote him. How does that work exactly? Ninja paranoia doesn't kick in for a few days at least.

Piplup appears to have site flaked, but is a slot I want to hear more from.

Gamma was going to be someone I grilled today, but he's now MIA. So replacement will be nice.

GreyICE · Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:04 am

Hah, Vote Counts? Get out of here with your bourgeois nonsense.

GreyICE · Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:42 pm

In post 1449, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Welcome Cheeky … is mixing up Hiraki for Piplup the level of attention to detail I should expect from you?

Grey
– Real talk time … why don’t you want any part in a Saud lynch at all? I mean realistically you cannot look at his ISO and say “solid Town and important to keep alive”. I get you have other targets you prefer but Saud can’t be allowed anywhere near LYLO even if he got cop cleared. I’d trust Firebringer in LYLO more than him and that should tell you something.

Well if nothing else, he was tracked going nowhere. Either the scum have no PRs, or Saudade is a scum PR that submitted no action (since we have a flipped goon). That buys him a day at least.

That and I just don't frequently see scum tunnel a single townie for two days.

GreyICE · Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:46 pm

In post 1448, Piplup wrote:
In post 1441, GreyICE wrote:Piplup appears to have site flaked, but is a slot I want to hear more from.
What do you want to hear?

Thoughts. Scumhunting. Reason to believe you're town.

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 8:50 am

In post 1474, CheekyTeeky wrote:
In post 1472, OnTheMark wrote:Cheeky is a known meta reader.
Who are you?

Oh gosh I'm going to make a series of alts to play in games just to frustrate the meta nutbars, who can't pee without checking a game to make sure they're peeing at the appropriate time for their town meta.

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 11:19 am

My late jump on Cult?

Do tell me more. I really want to see the reasoning behind this one.

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 11:21 am

Yeah, I've got to give this newbie low marks for... practically everything.

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 11:22 am

It feels like their roleblocker fucked up and forgot to submit the action last night and now someone's trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 11:27 am

One player was active and one player wasn't? Seems simple enough to me. Or who the fuck knows? If you want to tell me the logic they used, go right ahead.

If you want to rolefish further, you can have that I'd claim Ascetic post 1 regardless of alignment if it was my role. Unfortunately my role wasn't quite so exciting, not that I haven't had a good run as some flavor of miller.

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 11:28 am

As for where you're wrong, I started the Cult wagon.

That's why I'm extremely curious as to what fucking game you're reading. Or your claim that you've read the game at all.

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 11:31 am

I have no fucking clue
No fucking clue
It's rare to let scumteams submit actions for each other. And trust me, I've downright begged mods to let me submit someone's role action for an inactive teammate.

Like really, why would scum-MOI claim to be blocked N1 and NOT blocked N2? Walk me through that piece of logic.

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 11:32 am

In post 1544, OnTheMark wrote:
In post 1542, GreyICE wrote:As for where you're wrong, I started the Cult wagon.

That's why I'm extremely curious as to what fucking game you're reading. Or your claim that you've read the game at all.
Again I addressed that.

Just because you start a wagon is not alignment indicative. What matters is if you follow it through.

And you didn’t. You explored other options, namely Flavor who is town and StefanB tbd.

Your timing is super badly off there. It was Flavor>Stefan>Flavor>COA.

And if you think fucking Flavor didn't earn his lynch I would love to know what game you're reading.

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 11:38 am

Find some completed normals instead. In fact, go check the last five completed normal games. You could also glance at my threads and see I've primarily played older games, in fact this is my first game this year.

Or I could fucking lynch you. Which I'm leaning towards. Because OTM? This sort of role speculation is extremely scum motivated. My experience is that 90% of the time "weird shit happened at night" is the result of town having little information. It feels like you're trying to turn some flavor of mistake into a gambit.

Pedit: Why doesn't someone walk through the scum motivation here?

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 11:41 am

In post 1553, OnTheMark wrote:
In post 1549, Hiraki wrote:Ok, so asking someone how many games they've played...?
It’s a matter of demonstrating that Grey’s suggestion scum couldn’t submit a buddy’s action is bullshit

viewtopic.php?p=10071779#p10071779

From a recently completed newbie game.

So scum likely didn’t forget”. They chose to block someone else or they didn’t ever block Grey at all.

And in regards to MOI because claiming blocked twice would look hella worse.

The FUCK?

How would being blocked twice look worse than being blocked once when the second block is AFTER he claimed?

Walk me through this logic, right now.

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 11:42 am

Actually, lets put this in the right context.

Vote: OnTheMark

Piece of Logic number 1: Scum would block MOI N2 after the tracker claim if they blocked him N1.
Piece of Logic number 2: It would look scummy if MOI were blocked two nights in a row.

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 11:50 am

In post 1562, OnTheMark wrote:
In post 1559, GreyICE wrote:Actually, lets put this in the right context.

Vote: OnTheMark

Piece of Logic number 1: Scum would block MOI N2 after the tracker claim if they blocked him N1.
Piece of Logic number 2: It would look scummy if MOI were blocked two nights in a row.
Yes. It would.

It would make MOI look bad.
Mainly the first night acting second night blocked is what I would expect if scum had a blocker
Followed by blocked both nights which yes would look scummy but be explainable
Followed by “We are gonna let a claimed PR run free because ‘logic’”

And go for it. I dare you.

That missing block needs to be explained and I am gonna find answers.

Yes, I get that you're desperately hunting for roles.

What I don't see is any flavor of scumhunting.

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 11:55 am

In post 1568, Hiraki wrote:Grey - why are you entertaining this argument about if someone can or cannot issue an action for others?

I dunno. I'm mostly just trying to figure out what he's doing here. Like so far he's:

Realized that Stefan softclaimed something, made a big deal about it in thread, but hasn't pushed him at all on the softclaim.
Rolefished about desperately as to what might have happened with MOI
Yelled at me about not putting enough pressure on COA and not telepathically realizing that COA was scum from my first post
Desperately complained that modding standards have changed (like I give a fuck)

This guy gets lynched today 100%. Put your vote on him, this happens.

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 11:59 am

In post 1573, Hiraki wrote:Honestly, he replaced Gamma. Get a majority and I'll switch.

Sounds good to me.

Prism, MOI, you on board?

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 12:00 pm

Works for me, kid. You prepared to die over this?

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 12:03 pm

Sweet.

Claim time, I'm the town jailkeeper. I blocked MOI night 1, I blocked Piplup night 2.

Get fucked you rolefishing bitch.

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 12:05 pm

Omae wa mou shindaru

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 12:10 pm

You don't think there's THREE PRs in a Mini Normal? Are you fucking serious?

1991: viewtopic.php?f=53&t=75047

numberQ Eddie Cane - Goon
Lexa - Goon
rb Maki Harukawa - Mafia Rolecop (Odd-Night)
havingfitz - JOAT (Track/Watch/Kill)
Luca Blight - JOAT (T/W/RB/GS)
Mumble - Doctor
Havo - VT
Guy_Named_Riggs Fissure - VT
Awoo - VT
Papa Zito -VT
Cedrick - VT
northsidegal - VT
Alexcellent - VT

1989:

Mafia Encryptor
Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker
Mafia Goon

Town Doctor
Town Tracker
Town Mason
Town Mason
6 Vanilla Townies

1988:
8 Vanilla Townies
2 Mafia Goons
1 Town Day 5 Innocent Child
1 Town 1-shot Rolecop
1 Town 2-shot Neapolitan

And so on and so forth. For someone who spends so long on setup spec and checking old games you don't seem to have actually um... done any analysis.

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 12:11 pm

In post 1583, OnTheMark wrote:Furthermore why did you not continually protect the outed PR? Turn him into an IC if town and a vanilla goon who can’t kill if scum? I find it highly irregular you thought scum wouldn’t shoot MOI.

You're dead, bitch.

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 12:14 pm

Dead men don't get to make requests.

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 12:20 pm

Fine, I'll cut out with that insult, I apologize.

I won't cut out pointing out that:

And those games all had scum who did something.

And:

1991numberQ Eddie Cane -

Goon

Lexa -

Goon

1989Mafia Encryptor
Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker

Mafia Goon

19888 Vanilla Townies

2 Mafia Goons

1 Town Day 5 Innocent Child
1 Town 1-shot Rolecop
1 Town 2-shot Neapolitan

In point of fact, 1988 was three weak power roles versus

TWO

goons.

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 12:21 pm

Like this really feels like a complaint "wow our scum team doesn't have enough power" since all I see is one flipped goon.

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 12:22 pm

In post 1592, OnTheMark wrote:
In post 1589, Hiraki wrote:I still have no idea why Grey must be right about everything.
He doesn’t have to be right about everything but the fact he is claiming jailkeeper to cover his own ass when he saw how serious my push was says a lot.

Yeah it's not like I told MOI in thread I jailkept him and that's why we started townreading each other.

Oh wait I did.

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 12:28 pm

Look at the setup again. Rolecop can only find the Innocent Child (pft) and the Neapolitan (okay). Everyone else comes back "vanilla" and they're one shot.
So basically it's a 2 shot cop and some bizarre nonsense versus the world.

Think it belongs in the theme queue myself, but if you know anything about balance then you know Hoopla's old standard was "three strong/four weaker town power roles versus little scum power, or four strongish/five weaker town power roles versus scum roleblockers and scum power" and largely that's proven balanced (although there's been a recent drive for more town power due to declining win rates).

Now outside of setup spec, yes, good job fishing out my role. What you also fished out is you're a mostly goon team. So thanks for the info!

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 12:30 pm

I'm blocking Cheeky tonight

That's for after I'm dead. Magna should get out one more good track, so that'll be two clears. Mass claim tomorrow, and work from there.

For the guide, there should be 3-5 town power roles. Tracker is a weak town power role, Jailkeeper is a moderate one, so I'd be leaning four, even against mostly goons.

POPCORN CLAIM.

Cheeky gets to pick if the kill goes through, otherwise... well this game will be very simple, yes? If you don't know what a popcorn claim is, I know Hiraki does. Stefan claims first, to lock in his soft claim.

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 12:34 pm

Well that'll be a different game, so we'll make a different plan for that game.

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 12:35 pm

Are you kidding me.
Are you fucking kidding me.
On low scum counts the Jailkeeper is MUCH more valuable as a cop than as a doctor. Cop is a better role than doctor 100%.
Mathblade, is that you?

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 12:42 pm

In post 1609, OnTheMark wrote:
In post 1608, GreyICE wrote:Are you kidding me.
Are you fucking kidding me.
On low scum counts the Jailkeeper is MUCH more valuable as a cop than as a doctor. Cop is a better role than doctor 100%.
Mathblade, is that you?
Doc > Cop

Every time

And yes god damn it

Okay, this was looking a lot like you. Your speculation hurts me inside.

And no, trust me. Cop's effects on win rates are enormous. Doctor barely has an impact. Cop always works, always. Doctor works IF you guess the night kill, and if you do the effect is barely better than a cop's (you confirm one person town, but it only gets you an extra lynch if you do it twice). In addition the doctor confirming someone town only happens on obvtown players, and is a weaker confirm than the cop's (scum can always no kill). Doctor can never find scum, cop can. Cop is the strongest role outside of weird mini-only roles, doctor is a role that I consider weak outside of certain PR interactions. I'd say an 11:2 with one cop would be close to unwinnable for scum, an 11:2 with one doctor would probably be balanced.

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 12:44 pm

In post 1613, OnTheMark wrote:After all no one can explain why the fuck MoI wasn’t killed the past two nights.

Day one is iffy if no one saw the claim.
Day two on the other hand why the hell was hoopla killed over a PR?

No one is answering this shit

'cause scum had no idea what happened obviously. All they know was that Magna was claimed to be blocked N1, and they didn't do it. Spooooky. Scum hate spooky because it usually ends with them getting lynched. So they shot the obvious townie whose an incredibly strong player. It was arguing Gamma or Implosion to me, and this is settling it.

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 12:47 pm

In post 1611, OnTheMark wrote:You even went along with the roleblocked bit

And yeah, no shit, I didn't play into Stefan's rolefishing. I KNEW that scum would be rolefishing today. It was the dangling hook I was waiting for a fish to jump on.

It's really not hard to find the breadcrumbs to MOI:

In post 1064, GreyICE wrote:Ugh. Reading Magna's logic, and it's unfortunately not bad. It's thin, but I see where he's coming from. In contrast, his setup spec is awful beyond all compare,
he should be locked up
for that sort of nonsense. But I'm not looking to
block
any lines of communication, so I'm not going to mock it too hard.

In post 1070, GreyICE wrote:I think you're missing the
key
factor here, which is speculation about the scum having a roleblocker. As far as I understand it, scum roleblockers have dropped off significantly ever since it was shown that setups with a scum roleblocker were heavily scum favored. I don't think we should assume so quickly that they have one in setup analysis. While I'm not inclined to ignore cries of "I was roleblocked" completely, as it does happen, I don't think it's an excuse for everyone to have a
get out of jail free card.

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 12:48 pm

In post 1618, OnTheMark wrote:So you’re calling hoopla an obvious townie who is an incredibly good player?

Over someone who can guilty them?

Go on

Isn't cop a weak role?
Since tracker is a garbage cop, I'd say tracker is much weaker still.

GreyICE · Tue May 01, 2018 3:30 pm

Dammit Prism! Nooooooooo

GreyICE · Wed May 02, 2018 3:09 am

Plan is in effect if this is a scumflip, and it should be.