Mini Normal 2323 [There is an Inventor] | FIN
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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bothyour role and Kage benefits the wolves more than the Town. You can for sure argue that yours was to supplement the Towns fight against the vig's but like a macho-maker and the strengthener is like almost entirely a negative utility role, especially with a JK and a protection-based invention in the game. The Gunsmith that has a positive on everybody and their mother is not counteracting powerful scum kills, it's to find PRs/some inventions. Like it has a positive on every claimed and flipped PR in the game right now + more from the inventions.-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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Ah yeah thank you, I forgot that partIn post 2537, Gypyx wrote: Reminder that the strengthener is personal so it pretty much doesn't benefit scum, or like, half as much-
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The only thing I don't super duper like is the macho-maker which doesn't make much sense to have but I'm willing to overlook that for now. Kage on the other hand, that's almost certainly a scum role masked to look like a town one. If not by social play (aka he's a v-cop or something), then it's made with the Godfather in mind to be a safe fake-claim for them.-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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Hey, how about you stop making senseIn post 2540, Gypyx wrote:
Combined BG vig shoots the machoified guyIn post 2539, JacksonVirgo wrote: The only thing I don't super duper like is the macho-maker which doesn't make much sense to have but I'm willing to overlook that for now. Kage on the other hand, that's almost certainly a scum role masked to look like a town one. If not by social play (aka he's a v-cop or something), then it's made with the Godfather in mind to be a safe fake-claim for them.
BG doesn't work
free vig shot (big)-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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He appears to be Katsuku 2.0. A JOAT with a Gunsmith, Follower and a Modifier Cop. All of which aid in finding PRs instead of wolves in this setupIn post 2542, Gypyx wrote: what is kage's role exactly btw? didn't understeand that part too much-
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I have a few pools right now. I have the wagons that Dann avoided voting { enchant / kage }
I have the two pools based on who Dann flipped their read on { Gypyx / Thom } { Enchant / Kage }
And then I have the lack of actions + no other reason to TR them in { Thom / Enchant }.-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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I'm unsure if Town would truly have two JOATs and two Inventors, I guess with double kills and two wolves who can do that type of thing itcouldmake sense but I severely doubt it. I probably stick to my guns that I went with early today and just say we wipe Enchant and Kage from the game and that probably just wins us the game in a 2-wolf game and then solve in Thom/Gypyx if it's a 3-wolf game. That's just from my perspective of course. Scum needs to dig their feet in to win this, which makes me feel like it's Kage over Enchant and I still believe that completely but I am okay with Enchant as a wagon.-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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Sorry for the misgendering.In post 2548, Duelist Kage wrote: Please stop misgendering me. And are you seriously arguing that scum would not just forgo their nightkill to use a Follower shot, but find a Jailkeep+investigative with it and then... not kill them?
You placed a snuck premise in that statement. I have not drunk the 2-wolf coolaid so refrain from throwing down your assumptions down my throat and pretending I am making arguments with them.
Regarding the kill, I feel it's incredibly likely that the wolves would use the vig/hider shots first. Given how they'd 100% claim it if it were the vig/bg and that the wolves are incredibly unlikely to give away the base vigilante shot first which means the N1 and N2 factional kills aremissingentirely. Why would this be the case? It doesn't make sense without some out of the box thinking, or wifom arguments from the wolves which would be what you're doing now. I also don't have the information that the wolves would have, so you're asking me to assume scum motivation where I have no logical way of discerning that outside of theories which I already see your the type of person to just throw away anything that doesn't 100% force you to change your way of thinking considering you've already done it many times.
I can see four worlds
1. The wolves are choosing to refrain from killing.
2. The kills have been blocked twice in a row.
3. The wolves cannot kill.
4. Magical fourth world where I am overlooking or lacking a piece of information
The likelihood of wolves choosing to not kill is incredibly low considering the amount of kill-power they seem to have. 3 kills is exponentially better than 1/2, plus that kill would be directly controlled by the wolves as opposed to put in the hands of the Town.
I don't remember who Elements said they blocked N2 but regardless, they blocked dave N1 and I doubt anybody believes them to be a wolf considering the circumstances surrounding them.
So, chances are that the wolves just simply cannot kill. What world would land in a no-kill world? One where all the wolves are compulsive and thus cannot have access to the night kill at all, which is the theory that has been cooking in my mind a lot since Thom had started the theory D2. Which is massively not what I expect from a Normal but it's a complex and it's already tripped me out with the mech so what's stopping it really. It would make sense in a 2 or 3 scum world given that the remaining scum can still use Dann's inventions.-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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I finally overtook Black's post count, holy shit how much did they post-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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Sure, but again if he were wolf he wouldn't have claimed having the vig which is almost immediately confirmable + if it's not true just dooms himIn post 2552, Hu Tao wrote: If there was no kill day 1 and Dave was jailed day 1 doesn't that mean he could have been making the night kill or no-
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Not explicitly but I feel it's obviousIn post 2555, Hu Tao wrote: Did he ever say what kind of vig it was?-
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"Town really needs me to town-read them" paraphrased, it's the vig/hider almost certainlyIn post 2557, Hu Tao wrote: Which do you think-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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Probably-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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I kinda overlooked that interaction-
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If dave gets blocked and we're wrong on whatever elim we choose today, we're gonna end up eliminating the person dave would shoot anyway which is yet another "locked elim" which hurts the thread health. I can see the benefit in both blocking dave, and also blocking someone else to avoid them giving more killing inventions out or doing the maul if Thom's theory is wrong. Which gives us the most benefits? I'm not sure, I'll have to think about that more-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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I don't think so-
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If I humour not playing conservatively, (and p-edit, if elements can even act) I mean we can funnel actions to sort the entire 4+ player PoE in one cycle. An example world that I'm just coming up with off the top of my head is to:
1. Lim Enchant
2. Dave kills Kage
3. Elements blocks Thom
4. Gypyx / JV gives each other an invention.
5. Hu Tao vibes (or uses the invention I gave)
With this
- Enchant gets sorted
- Kage gets sorted
- Thom gets sorted
- Gypyx / JV solve whether it's a 2 or 3p wolf team.
- If it's a 3p wolf team and we flip a wolf today, Hu Tao gets sorted through Thom's inversion. Otherwise the same as below
- If it's a 2p wolf team, the unsorted resides in { Hu Tao, JV, Gypyx } in which we can resolve manually.-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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If we're unlucky and all kills flip green, we'd be in a 2v3 or a 1v4 which are not horrid odds at all.-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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N1 dave kill makes very little sense, like incredibly little sense.
Dave doing the killing and getting blocked makes even less sense.
Scum sacrificing a night kill to give them undue risk with a vig vend makes no sense to me-
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What's the difference?In post 2573, Elements wrote: it's kinda slow, but it feels more "town have a good grasp of what's going on" slow and not a "wolves are happy with the status quo" slow-
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Oh? Why wouldn't it?In post 2577, Hu Tao wrote: Thom getting blocked doesn't work anyone.-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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I didn't even notice a claim, that fuckin' sucks actually. Ugh-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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I think we do the same plan just remove Thom's block and kill Thom instead if the flip goes red and the game doesn't end, it's less effective but we deal-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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I haven't full-claimed what my inventions are but I think that's for the best-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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I might just full-claim but we'll see. Gyp what inventions do you got left?-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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Actually-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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I don't think it's actually necessary to cross-invention each other, I just said each other cuz it seems cleaner to think about but if u got a Macho left, you should probably place it on someone scummy so that if it lands and somebody gets a suicide-vig they can avoid killing themselves.-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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Lim Enchant.
Dave kills Kage
Gypyx places Macho on Thom
JV gives someone unknown an invention
Hu Tao / Elements just vibing, watching netflix or something
Just letting everybody know that I'm okay with claiming but idt it benefits us at all and it's better hidden-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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How would scum be permanently blocked from killing?In post 2606, Gypyx wrote:
i think it would be more pertinent to give out the compulsive strengthener? like, macho *might* land us a kill, but having a scum permanently blocked from killing is way better valueIn post 2605, JacksonVirgo wrote: I don't think it's actually necessary to cross-invention each other, I just said each other cuz it seems cleaner to think about but if u got a Macho left, you should probably place it on someone scummy so that if it lands and somebody gets a suicide-vig they can avoid killing themselves.-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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I mean if the wolf with the vig inventor got it from being a backup. That would make them compulsive too so it kinda just voids that ideaIn post 2609, Gypyx wrote: compulsive-
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And in the world where there is no scum factional kill cuz of compulsive wolves.In post 2612, Duelist Kage wrote: Look, here's a breakdown of worst case scenario if we were in a 3 wolf world. Thomith's wasn't dire enough because he forgot about the N2 kill.
9 town/3 wolf
D1 miselimination
8/3
N1 kill, vig dispensed
7/3 on D2
D2 miselimination
6/3
N2 kill, 2 deaths from vig invention
3/3 starting D3 = game over
This is not balanced. There's potential for scum to get vigged or target the same as the town vig, but I don't believe bianco makes a game with alargerthan standard scum team and then puts in extra killing power which is largely controlled by wolves.
I'll review the suggested plan later when I have more time but my initial impression is that Jackson is still being a paranoid tunneller and hopefully it doesn't even matter because Enchant is my prime suspect right now.
9v3 wcs
Elim into 8v3
Vig vended 8v3
Elim into 7v3
Vig vended + 2 town dead 5v3
Elim into 4v3
Vig vended + 2 town dead 2v3
That's worst case scenario.
Wolves got 1.33 KPN by N3 and then it once again drops because that's exhausting the double kills.
And that's additional KPN that's risky as fuck due to it being in the hands of the TownANDdelayed so it can be dealt with by the JK, the doctor invention, or gypyx's utility to control the killing somewhat. 3+ ways to block the kills, plus a slow and not even that beneficial kill method for the scum that's only barely beneficial by numbers over a traditional night kill that would only really benefit them if they're super lucky or they had excellent thread control
If you run it normally
9v3 elims into 8v3
kills into 7v3
elims into 6v3
kills into 5v3
elims into 4v3
kills into 3v3
Notice how it's pretty much the exact same?-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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Plus even in a 2-wolf world, that would make the final wolf taking the compulsive vig inventor which makes them compulsive, which removes their factional kill.-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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I’m not able to post in depth atm but if y’all are suspecting Elements, I think that’s a little silly personally but we can switch Kage with Thom so Kage can check Elements’ modifiers either confirming or creating a 1v1.-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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Where did I complain that there's too many PRs? Because I'm not lock-towning the PR claims? That feels unreasonable, I believe what I believe and I'm not making plans that are beneficial to just my point of view but helpful even if I'm wrong, I've constantly made arguments that "if this is a 2-wolf world" etc just in case IIn post 2627, Duelist Kage wrote: complain that there's too many PRs for them all to be real?amwrong because I'm not stupid, I just believe what I believe. I'm sick of doing this back and forth with you, we're bumping our heads together and I think we're both assuming things of the other that aren't true as you keep saying I feel ways that I don't? And just out of respect I'm going to just assume that it's a misunderstanding rather than malicious intent just for our collective sanity.
I am curious what you feel is a good strategy, I feel mine is fairly optimal for all worlds. I guess it needs updating now that Elements claimed a 2-shot. You seem like a mech-leaning player as am I so curious if we can come to the same conclusion on what's optimal-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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Hm wait,@Gypyxyou said that you scum-read Black. Why did you give Black an invention?-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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Not your N1 but your N2. As your N1 was not youIn post 2457, Gypyx wrote: my N2 was also spent on Black so no result from that one-
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As you said they were your top SRs first thingIn post 2135, Gypyx wrote: also that's a rough night for me, black and katsuki kinda were my top SR's-
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I try and plan for the worst case scenario so we're stable nmw, we can confirm the amount of wolves without going on me and also securing us against if the wolves do still have the vig vender, which is a win/win. We just have to make sure to not target the same person and we easily confirm the lazy modifier (which was the reasoning behind it) + we secure ourselves against the known wolf PR.In post 2636, Duelist Kage wrote: There shouldn't be any more of the vig+bg so I don't think this is necessary, I believe we can just use it to confirm amount of wolves via her Lazy modifier. So best to send it to you?-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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I'll wait for Gypyx to respond back to me before I respond to your proposal-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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As like, what I just caught is pretty bad-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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Acknowledging what you said, not ignoring you but I'm waiting on Gypyx so will get back to you on both of those posts-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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Can I ask your thoughts on Gyp claiming to vend to their biggest SR?-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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Hm, that's true yeah that paranoia is gone. We ballin'-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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My thoughts on the ideal actions
1. Lim Enchant
2. Gypyx throws Macho invention to Kage
3. JV throws one of their inventions to someone that isn't Thom/Kage
4. Kage checks Gypyx
5. Hu Tao does what is obvious to do here.
6. Dave shoots Thom
7. Elements does nothing
8. Thom does nothing
I feel this maximises what we have, minimises the risk based on all the uncertainties. Kage getting the macho means that the possible suicide-vends stays off of our PRs / confirmed townies that can still do things. The whole logic surrounding me not trusting you is a non-issue as there's many reasons as to why you wouldn't lie about it even as a wolf.
1. If somebody gets a suicide-vig, they should shoot Kage 100% of the time if they claim to not have received one. This will kill them 100% of the time if they lied, so they won't lie.
2. The investigation I gave Hu Tao is incredibly likely unused or even if it was used last night that wifom is open, and it's a visit-based investigative so even if you do wifom. If the result goes against theirs, then you go down.
I think it's fine. Thoughts?-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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I'm not, Kage is but apparently me not just assuming everyone is Town is "complaining"In post 2648, Thomith wrote: If I've missed something (i probably have) let me know and I'll go looking, but why are we assuming all PR's are town?-
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The only three people I am confident in are Elements, Hu Tao and Dave. Everyone else is up in the air.-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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Mhm, if you claimed to not receive the machoIn post 2652, Duelist Kage wrote:
I'm trying to parse this. I think you mean if I claim not to have received the Macho?JacksonVirgo wrote: 1. If somebody gets a suicide-vig, they should shoot Kage 100% of the time if they claim to not have received one. This will kill them 100% of the time if they lied, so they won't lie.-
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Right, but if there's no apparent objections then we've found a decent middlegroundIn post 2652, Duelist Kage wrote: I can't really have thoughts on actions I don't know but I expect you and Hu are town and reasonably competent at figuring out what to do with this ability. Any additional info from whatever you two are doing is just extra on top of a fine plan.-
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Welcome to the rabbit holeIn post 2655, Duelist Kage wrote: Dear lord, why did I go down the rabbithole?-
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Guess this is as good time as any
VOTE: Enchant-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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Holy shit, I had elements at near lock-town. That's terrifying-
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Huge, as I said way earlier. I think realistically I should have used this one first but like I had no idea the game would go this way. Oh wellIn post 2682, Gypyx wrote: i got you invention jackson-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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Kyouko and the fact that wolf!dann dodged two wagons he could have jumped on but didn't and then went for Kyo as the counter-wagon. I had a theory that scum was in that secondary wagon (ccS/Gamma) but he didn't wanna single out the wolf in the two so he went for a super wide swing.In post 2687, Gypyx wrote:
What was that based on?In post 2684, JacksonVirgo wrote: Holy shit, I had elements at near lock-town. That's terrifying-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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Wait-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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Elements' claimed that she JK'd Hu Tao on N2. It was public information that Hu Tao received my invention on N1, why would Elements risk getting called out like that unnecessarily when the chances were that an invention received N1 gets used N2. I don't like that at all. I gotta re-address my TR on Hu Tao. The fact I just about lock-towned a wolf is scary enough that I have to rebase myself.
pedit: Yeah as likely chance dave had the vig and shot Elements-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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Kage was supposed to get itIn post 2692, Thomith wrote: If I was meant to receive the Macho modifier I didn't by the way (assuming I'd get told if I did)-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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What? I haven't pushed you since D1In post 2694, Thomith wrote: Ima be honest with how hard JV has been pushing me as scum most of the game I'm struggling to lock in a TR on them, even if logic is making me think they're probably town..-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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In fact I'm warming up to Hu Tao unfortunately-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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Yeah it was known before Elements claimedIn post 2698, Gypyx wrote: by public info do you mean it was known day 2? sorry things are messy-
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JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
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