Mini 2136 | City That Never Sleeps [Game over!]
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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this post feels like pretend scumhunting to me!In post 47, acryon wrote:Is it actually just a feeling?
Literally just completed page 1 and you had an issue with someone's involvement in the game already?In post 43, Karnage wrote:
I don't like the 2 naked votes then a "pagetop"In post 37, The Limit Does Not Exist wrote:I’d like to hear your thoughts on nom too.
I would like to see them get more involved in the game
Co-sign.
VOTE: arcyon
also gut early reads skitter town, smart hydra town, karnage town. I like Auro's posts so far too but I'm a lil too paranoid there to also give an early townread"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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why does this always happenIn post 124, skitter30 wrote:gl's post is pinging me the wrong way
you agree that the post I quoted is bad, right? and personally I wasn't impressed with the reply to me either."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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ehhh you know it's not a huge difference I guess, and I wasn't saying that because I'm scared of scum!you in particular, it's more just I felt I had town!pings from those slots bc they were doing things that I didn't find natural to fake as scum, whereas with your posts I was finding myself more agreeing with them than thinking "oh yeah scum isn't likely to post this".In post 137, Auro wrote:GuiltyLion, what's the difference between "I like his posts" and "gut early townread"? Paranoia is a word I see thrown more as the game progresses, instead of right at the start.
We have only two games where I was scum against you, no? One of them you caught me (marathon tho) and the other I recall just killing you N1 before you had a chance to.
It's not a major thing and if you pushed me further on it I dunno if I'd be able to convincingly show exactly why the read felt different, was mostly operating off of my first gut impression reading through.
How do you like my acryon vote?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Smart - which part of it?
I didn't like the "How many games" question, felt more like a 'gotcha!' in focusing on # of games rather than a genuine avenue toward's understanding nom's POV, they felt all too eager to dismiss their 47 as 'I'm not scum hunting yet and I'm rusty' - I think town would have been a bit more insulted or confused - and the last line is just an OMGUS-y threat. Genuinely interested to hear where you see town in that."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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that seems pretty easy to write as scum IMO but I appreciate the answer"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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yah I just saw it as a deflection, possibly rooted in awareness that the original questions felt forced. "hey you can't push me for that, I'm just askingfriendly questions". I guess in writing this out though it might comes down to differing interpretations of tone.
p-edit: oh you're going the 'too scummy to be scum' route I guess"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I just wished he were more indignant. I accused him! Why would he be so willing to acknowledge that they were weak questions but then also suggest that I'm a good vote because I pushed him on it, it also feels like there's dissonance there."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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@Smart - it doesn't fit a range of responses that I would expect from town, no"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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she opened by giving townreads on you and Karnage based off of your opening posts, then further also gave reason to townread Eve in 56, that's narrowing her lynchpool very quickly and generally I think a decent indicator of town when done in the way she did, bringing novel townreads ASAP (as opposed to agreeing with consensus townreads). I also liked her acryon vote/timing, it was the right diagnosis of which slot needed pressure the most IMO.In post 157, Auro wrote:Can you point to anything Skitter did that you find unnatural to fake as scum?
I guess "unnatural" was a strong way to phrase that but in general she strikes me as building a town bloc and focusing on areas that are likely to draw out AI info.
why shouldn't skitter get to be on a lynch? you said you were townreading her?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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he directly responded to me pushing him and then said he liked keeping his vote there, I didn't think it's a stretch to assume those things are related. If he has other reasons for voting me then those are absent from his post.In post 159, Auro wrote:@GuiltyLion: Is it implied anywhere in his posts that he found you a good vote because you pushed him on it? The quoted part does not imply that, for me. Perhaps I missed it.
Do you think he should have unvoted you because he acknowledged your attack had some merit to it?
Your other question feels a bit leading - generally I don't like it when anybody is voting me, as a rule. If he himself can see that his post didn't look like scumhunting then he needs to give more explanation as to whether and/or why he finds me suspicious for calling that out.
p-edit - yes actually I'd love that lol"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I think traffic analyst should just claim the day before LYLO, then if there's a CC situation then we can safely lynch both. Unless I'm missing some drawback to that, I don't think we need to plan to lynch Eve solely because of that claim postIn post 171, The Limit Does Not Exist wrote:Please correct me if I’m wrong here since my theory skills leave something to be desired - in terms of theory, I think we can’t leave Eve alive when (if) we get to LYLO. I can’t imagine she’ll be the NK unless scum believes her claim, as there’s just enough WIFOM there to produce confusion for us. Not saying she needs to be the lynch today (although I’d be okay with it if we can’t compromise anywhere else), but I do think she needs to be lynched before LYLO. Thoughts?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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what "big picture" do you think I was painting with that post? I was answering a question directed at me.In post 173, acryon wrote:142 from GuiltyLion doesn’t feel great. I’m always wary of people trying to paint a big picture based on a post or two early on. RVS stage is far from useless, but it typically doesn’t lead to these kinds of revelations.
and would it change your mind if I showed you numerous examples from my past where town!me tries to make reads as quickly as possible? I hate RVS"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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did you actually read the game in addition to the mafia PT? What do you think of my play here so far compared to that Newbie game?In post 183, Auro wrote:
Subject: Newbie 1995 Mafia PTIn post 175, The Limit Does Not Exist wrote:I‘m leaning towards town!GL. GL seems to be transparent in his thought process and reasoning
I just wanted to add this here, sorry for the shade, GuiltyLionGuiltyLion wrote:okay so I've played with Karnage / George before. George is somewhat mislynchable IIRC, Karnage I think I've only seen his scumgame but he seems competent, we might have to plan on NKing him
generally I don't like to bus - people will WIFOM their way out of a lot of associatives as long as you are actually engaging with your partner to some degree - and my goal is to make sure all my pushes sound reasonable/genuine. It works pretty well in newbie games cause newbies often fall for the logical = townie fallacy and there are usually enough lurksacks / people-playing-weird to burn through the first couple mislynches. but lemme know what your experience is, what you feel comfortable with, etc"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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to borrow your metaphor, FMPOV what happened was I saw you planting rocks, not real seeds. I entirely disagree with 2). And how is it disingenuous to criticize what I saw as planting rocks? Scum are scum and faking, no matter how far along they are in growing their fake garden.In post 212, acryon wrote:GuiltyLion rolls up on acryon's house and sees him working in the front by some soil where he's planting seeds. GuiltyLion says "Wow that's a bad garden. You don't even have anything growing." Not only would it be 1) disingenuous and silly to criticize the garden at that stage, it's also 2) possible acryon is planting the seeds exactly right, and it is going to be a good garden. I'm less interested in arguing 2), but 1) is why I have an issue with what GL did.
that said, I do kinda like your other posts the past couple of pages and honestly appreciate this metaphor lol
VOTE: Allomancer
I've got strong townreads on both nom and Limit Hydra and I agree Allo isn't really taking any stances so far this game."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Gut take before I finish catching up - I'm feeling really mixed on him, overall lean town but a level of confidence below most of my good townreads:In post 245, The Limit Does Not Exist wrote:@nom, @GL, I'd like to hear from you two regarding your reads on Auro. GL, have your feelings on him changed since the "paranoia" back and forth?
reasons I have for thinking he's town:
- I've clashed with him before similarly when TvT so I can imagine him being town here similarly (referring to Auro as Michael Scott hydra in Rapier U-Pick game)
- I think overall he's been fair with how he's treated my slot and other slots
- he certainly isn't buddying me
- I do like most of his reads and the players he's trying to townbloc, don't disagree with most of his game state views
reasons I have reservations:
- he doesn't see me as town yet and further seems to be almost committed to not townreading me
- he quoted the Maf PT from my most recent scumgame when I think my play in that game should already stand out as different than my play here
I'm trying to remember though that my reservations are likely biased since I tend to think I'm obvious as town in contrast to my scumgame, despite me knowing this probably isn't true to other people"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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you guys are both heroes, thank you so much!!In post 253, BBmolla wrote:
here I tried to fix up Auro's version a bit, not sure what you want done with those whiskers."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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this is bad VCA/wagonomics IMOIn post 268, skitter30 wrote:i'm interested that the acryon wagon seems to have collapsed and reformed on allo. i don't have a read on allo himself but sudden general consensus there loosely points to town!allo too
unless you wanna point to specific players that you think were the scum on both wagons, you can't really make a conclusion about Allo based off Acryon wagon, especially without flips from anybody yet. And if you're starting from "both wagons happened quickly and had similar players so it's likely scum were on them" then that's assuming from the get-go that the two wagoned players are town and will bias your reads from there"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I think the way Smart was treating me with suspicion but then Lilith comes in with this gut townread on me is hydra dissonance that a scum hydra is generally unlikely to fakeIn post 273, BBmolla wrote:does someone have townreads on Limit that is for beyond reasons that they post walls just curious"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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yeah this is extremely on pointIn post 291, nomnomnom wrote:I think I disagree. That post in particular shows a nuanced thought over a player. If a scum isn't a stream-of-consciousness machine, they mostly produce content that is fairly one sided on people and tend to categorize as GOOD, BAD or WISHY-WASHY. Producing a post that goes like "I heavily disagree with what you say and here's why... but I think I townread you" takes either a townie mind, or a scum that understands how to properly replicate that kind of nuance, which is honestly hard as fuck.
If we're talking about suspect timing, I'd recommend checking the progression of Allo regarding Eve and Acryon. Suddenly understood eve was shitposting when I said it was shitposting, and suddenly produces a real vote and thought on a player when I accused him of not doing that, on a player everyone more or less suspected previously. That timing and progression is just really bad. I think that the wagon forming really fast is just due to conversational missteps from Allo rather than having scum support. That's my inner feeling on this one.
I didn't say it but to +1 and summarize, the thing I disliked most from Allo was the late-ness to it's acryon vote. It was shading acryon but then only voted it once pressured by both Limit and nomnom. The unvote without going somewhere new, even when the juicy acryon wagon was right there, suggests to me Allo isn't interested in voting scumreads."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I'm not sure I exactly follow what you're identifying as a difference between my scumgame and town game here, but I definitely encourage you to meta me, I think I'm already way more involved in this game than I ever was in that Newbie scumgame where I basically just sat back and let town rip itself up.In post 297, Auro wrote:However, there does seem to be a difference in aggression between your push on Crayon (a "weird" slot) (and perhaps add Allomancer here too) and lack of it less weird ones. There's engagement, but more on the passive side.
Would that be something I find if I were to do a meta study on you?
I'm down! let's "take this offline", as they sayIn post 297, Auro wrote:When are we gonna do a Calvin & Hobbes hydra?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Ideally I'd like the day to end with the person I most want lynched getting lynchedIn post 327, Auro wrote:Skitter/GuiltyLion, are you both individually fine with being offwagon? I absolutely am.
but if that can/will happen without me on the wagon, I'm fine volunteering to be off of it"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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can you link me to a town game or two where you were a significant D1 wagon?In post 331, Allomancer wrote:
I'm not really too concerned about it. I feel like every game I've played lately, whether I've been town or scum, has lead to an early day 1 wagon on me.In post 314, acryon wrote:@Allomancer When you come back, what are your thoughts on how your wagon has progressed and how people have reacted to it? Just about everyone, even those outside of it, have responded to it in some way."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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1. Sorry, didn't mean to evade it, just missed it / thought it was rhetorical. I dunno, I feel I'm more likely to ask questions when I am unsure how I feel and looking for more info, whereas I gut felt Acryon's reply was scummy and didn't see a need to press further, I already knew how I felt about it. That's about the best I got for yaIn post 346, Auro wrote:@GuiltyLion:
1. Why evade the part where I ask you about your lack of questioning Crayon for his "unexplained" keeping of vote?
2. Has anyone ever identified you as an easy read?
3. Do you not think the contexts between the Newbie game (easy to coast in) and here (hesitancy in awarding townreads, pressure towards your slot, lot of non-"newbie" players) are different enough that a comparison in involvement is worth basing a read off of?
2. I can't remember a time someone has explicitly said they can consistently/always read me well, but Lilith seems to have already picked up on me being town this game and that was after opening saying she was afraid she couldn't read me that well. Some players I've played multiple games with (the worst, URAP2, Irrelephant) seem to be able to feel when I'm genuinely engaged vs when I'm not, and it makes them scary for me to roll scum against.
3. I'm not trying to go further down a rabbithole of making a meta argument for myself as town based off of my most recent scumgame, I just brought it up since you tried to argue with Lilith's townread on me by using a post from the Maf PT and I think the game threads themselves should be far more indicative than one comment I made about how I try to play scum. ultimately I'm just trying to point out that I am much more naturally able to effort and engage here, as town, and I plan to continue to consistently demonstrate my different alignment between these two games. If you aren't going to be (or don'twantto be) convinced that argument that's fine, ultimately it's your loss of a potential piece of evidence you could use to read me correctly ."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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honestly I don't wanna dig through old games and find something that feels like a convincing example, it's not easily searchable and I feel I can find some approximate examples that aren't going to be exactly the same and then we're both gonna just debate whether it's close enough to this instance for you to accept it as something I might do as townIn post 350, Auro wrote:1. Do you recall any previous instance of directly scumreading someone when there's -a lack of explanation- instead of asking for one?
3. It's a mindset thing. I disagree that you would play the coasting scumgame you did in that Newbie here for a variety of reasons, lol. Unless you're saying this level of involvement is outside your scum "range" entirely, this would be a fruitless comparison. plus, here I am engaging you myself. But fine: I'll hold off on my push, and see how your involvement shapes up.
It's obviously a cost benefit regarding the evidence. Here the difference in contexts muddles reliability, of course I'd expect scum!you here to behave much differently from there anyway.
wrt other two paragraphs, I think it's fair to expect me to play differently as scum across the two games given different PLs and whatnot, I'm just making a more simple point that I plan toefforthere to a degree that it's usually really-hard-if-not-impossible for me to replicate as scum."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I was asking cause I thought it might be fruitful to compare your reactions to pressure across a few town games, but since this is an old game + this example looks like still a mostly RVS wagon not grounded in many heavy accusations, I'm not really getting anything useful out of thisIn post 351, Allomancer wrote:
viewtopic.php?p=10650012#p10650012In post 339, GuiltyLion wrote:
can you link me to a town game or two where you were a significant D1 wagon?In post 331, Allomancer wrote:
I'm not really too concerned about it. I feel like every game I've played lately, whether I've been town or scum, has lead to an early day 1 wagon on me.In post 314, acryon wrote:@Allomancer When you come back, what are your thoughts on how your wagon has progressed and how people have reacted to it? Just about everyone, even those outside of it, have responded to it in some way.
This is from a while ago, but I took about a year break from Mafia and just recently started playing again."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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honestly I think that I have, that was kinda how the whole discussion started, but I'm willing to acknowledge that to other players who don't know my alignment it may not be that easy to seeIn post 502, skitter30 wrote:
Do u think u have at this point?In post 501, GuiltyLion wrote:I plan to effort here to a degree that it's usually really-hard-if-not-impossible for me to replicate as scum."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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agree with this post (tho I'm just trusting acryon on the meta) and want to use it to state that acryon is now easily one of my strongest townreadsIn post 403, acryon wrote:I typically don't care about meta much, but I'd have a hard time supporting a lynch with such little content (Sauce).
So I looked at some of his past games, and I have seen stretches of effort and insight, but I've also seen some stretches of non-content like he's done this game. If we didn't have other viable options, I would support a lynch there, but given that I think we do, we should maybe hold off for a little more. I'm not entirely convinced he isn't just being lazy (maybe uninterested if I've being charitable)."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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re:Auro - like I mentioned the other day, he's been kinda overfixated on me, and I'm also skeptical of how he seems totally uninterested in pressuring/voting Allomancer. I don't like his Eve push. I can imagine these behaviors serving a scum-agenda so he's not in my towncore, but it's also not really enough to make me want to push him and I do think he'd be a big asset if town and we're just on different wavelengths this game.
I think I'm like here overall, though I do wanna finish close-reading the last few pages:
definite town: {LDNE, acryon, nomnomnom}
prob-town: {Sausage, Eve}
meh: {Auro, BBmolla}
scum: {Allo}"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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lol I forgot skitter/karnage
Karnage in probtown, skitter in meh"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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Molla you said the Allo wagon looks pretty town but you don't see the reasons for it, why aren't you doing more to resolve those feelings there?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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lol I don't know how anyone can read posts like 514 and think that limit hydra is scum
Allo/skit kinda feels like The Solve for me rn."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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he feels really earnest with the "let's not Lynch anyone yet guys" and "TLDNE misrepped me and is certain mafia" takes. There's no self-consciousness in his ISO at all. I don't agree with most if not all of what he's said but I do feel that he believes in it.In post 518, The Limit Does Not Exist wrote:Hold up, how did you end up with townread on Sausasaurus?
- Smarter
also @Molla the "extreme meh" is exactly why I'm feeling scum there. Bad responses to pressure, no demonstrated intent to solve, and I think if it was a mislynch scum would be hopping on that wagon by now"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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sorry you didn't say "extreme" and I added that myself, should not have been quoted like that, but point stands"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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meh, myself and two of my strongest townreads are on the wagon. Eve was voting it and actuallyIn post 528, The Limit Does Not Exist wrote:
Not sure I'd recommend using this logic on D1 of a 9:2 game. (Or ever, really, but especially not now.)In post 524, GuiltyLion wrote:I think if it was a mislynch scum would be hopping on that wagon by now
-Smartunvotedand still hasn't voted back despite being the main counter wagon. If scum benefit from this lynch I don't see it, IMO it is the best possible place for a vote right now."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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I'm townreading Sausausaurus less for the content of what they've said and more for the conviction he has while saying it.In post 527, Allomancer wrote:"Let's not lynch anyone yet" seems like a very easily faked towntell. It felt like an easy way to make a noncontroversial statement by agreeing with the sentiment of the town, but also not take any responsibility for the wagon. And I view the second thing as scum trying to come up with an easy excuse to push somebody."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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I think the early traffic analyst claim/joke is more likely to come from town, yes I know we've since covered "Eve is bold as scum" but in my mind that's still more often town than notIn post 537, Auro wrote:I've skimmed your ISO and I don't find any reasons for Eve to be in your prob-town tier, can you explain that?
What about my Eve push don't you like?
Dismiss the Allo vote all you want but IMO identifying the same things I saw as potentially scum-indicative is a sign of town mindset
I also liked the push on you/BBMolla for focusing on clearing yourself/other slots more than potentially guilting a scum. I had actually thought about this myself when you were asking if I would be fine off-wagon - the best case scenario FMPOV is me on-wagon - but ultimately decided that negative repercussions of me insisting to be on wagon prob wouldn't really be a benefit to town and end of the day I care much more about agreeing with the lynch itself than deciding who is on/off
I dislike your push because I really don't see any scum agenda/motivation to Eve's play? And you haven't bothered to make a case for it either:
I disagree that she's not not pro-town, I think she's made good votes/pushes, and especially stands in contrast to Allo who is not only not pro-town, but also actively scummy in a way I don't see at all from Eve.In post 405, Auro wrote:Simple reasoning for Eve vote: I can't sort her playstyle as I don't find it very transparent, and since I don't find her pro-town either, she's a perfectly good lynch.
Further, you've spent what feels like a loooottt of energy engaging with what you consider 'hard to read/sort' slots that could be useful as town, but then basically say you're fine with Eve being lynched since you think she isn't useful. It's like instead of solving the question of who is town and who is scum, you're more interested in solving the question of 'who can benefit town if town' vs who can't regardless of alignment, and I think that's a bad way to form reads and an easy way to lead to mislynches."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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Auro what are your thoughts on skitter's reply to your defense of TLDNE and the general TLDNE vs skit situation on the last page? I think if you are town then skitter's scum equity goes wayyyy up and curious to see if you share my feelings there."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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other random take, Molla's engagement with the Allo wagon doesn't feel like scum-scum. I think if Allo is scum then Molla is town, and vice versa."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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sorry I just reread that post and realize it's kinda ambiguous - I don't mean to imply that if Allo is town than Molla is scum -> that may be possible but it also could be TvT. I only mean that a scumflip from one should clear the other."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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bear with me as it's Saturday night and I'm a little inebriated/bleary so probably some grammar mistakes in advance but I wanna try to give you a response
I do think it's fair to point out that you are honing in on townreads and I have largely agreed with the townbloc you're forming which is why I can sometimes feel you may be town here. I think where I'm concerned is of the remaining pool outside the townbloc, we can't seem to see eye to eye on who is pro/anti town and who makes for a good wagon. I don't really grok at all why you don't see Allo as worthy of suspicion other than previous experience with his town meta, and I'm picking up townvibes from Eve that I'm confused you're not seeing.In post 543, Auro wrote: The bolded red part makes a lot of sense if you only look at what I said about Skitter not being a D1 lynch, in isolation. But then you must have noticed I was throwing townreads and strengthening them on multiple slots, and actually stated that that was the strategy I was going for this game in 315 . So either now you have to argue that the top-down way of forming reads is a bad way to form reads especially in a setup where getting the right townbloc can screw scum over, or this attack is empty air.
I don't think I'm -as concerned- as you with certain reads or takes because I think 11-2 feels townsided here and naturally a couple of flips will help in sorting the hard-to-read slots, but I'm wary that you feel so insistent on pressuring me at every turn and I don't always understand how it's helping you potentially see me as town.
I'm not saying Molla is excessively focused on clearing himself, I said rather that I liked Eve pressuring him on that particular line cause I thought it could be an odd take from town. I have liked some of Molla's other angles and while he's not clear town to me he's not also someone I'm itching to push at the moment. This feels like you're putting a stronger argument into my mouth that I never made, especially since I had just also stated that I don't think Allo/Molla as a team makes sense.In post 543, Auro wrote: Again, makes a lot of sense if you look at Molla's 360 in isolation where he offers a reason for me being fine being in the cop bloc... and ignoring literally every other post in his ISO where he's scumhunting.
Prove it. Prove that Molla is excessively focusing on clearing himself.
I'm not really following your interpretation here. I thought Eve's reasoning was referring to only the particular claimpost, not the RVS post? Unless you are referring to that claimpost as the RVS post?In post 543, Auro wrote:
Allo said that there existing a mech reason to be in the wagon alleviates some initial concerns he had from her, but she seems to be just shitposting, and he needs to see more content.In post 539, GuiltyLion wrote:Dismiss the Allo vote all you want but IMO identifying the same things I saw as potentially scum-indicative is a sign of town mindset
Eve's reasoning was that Allo should have "obviously" read her RVS post as a shitpost when he recognized that other posts of hers are shitposts, and thus shouldn't even have pushed her for it.
Your ISO does not show you finding this scum-indicative: so do you? You think it's a valid attack?
One instance of identifying something as scum-indicative in common with you is enough to get them into prob-town territory, is it?
My general understanding of Eve's point was - and I'm definitely adding some of my own interpretation here - Allo acknowledges that she may have reason to want to be on wagons as town, but also acknowledges that she was shitposting, which means he shouldn't really read into it either way, whereas in reality he was actually trying to read into it both ways. I'm not seeing what you're seeing where it refers to a sum of multiple posts.
And yeah, I kinda have light standards for prob-town at this stage because it's D1 and because objectively the vast majority of players are town. I find I have best read results when I search for the lines of reasoning that stand out as evidently absent of most reasonable interpretations for towniness, and use those to influence the confidence in my scumreads, and try to give players the benefit of the doubt as much as possible.
Sure, my points on Allomancer:In post 543, Auro wrote: If you could re-summarize the case on Allomancer, I would appreciate it. I think many of the things you find scummy in his posts are not ones I do; and I am in part vaguely informed by past experience with Allo.
Since you like having all evidence, I would suggest you read other towngames of his.
Overall, I am OK with whoever is lynched as long as the townbloc has consensus on it; but at this point I strongly advocate Eve to be in the cop-bloc if not the lynch.
- I really don't think it's made a lot of game advancing reads or pushes. The ISO gives me the impression of occasional commentary to blend in, rather than genuine beliefs it has that it wants to pursue.
- The strongest point for this is how he shaded acryon in 204 and unvoted in 205, but doesn't vote anywhere. Then it gets called out for being passive and not really engaging in tangible reads, and only then it votes in 215. That reads to me like appeasement and not like someone making a bonafide attempt to get more information from the game.
- Even now, sitting as a lead wagon with us inching ever closer to deadline, it's not really engaging with its wagon and is going so far to question votes on the counterwagon. I have no sense that I truly feel who Allomancer would like to flip by the end of today, and what it's doing to get there. It pushes back on my Sausaurus townread - why? Does it think Saus is scum? If so, why not actuallypush/i] that?
If we flip Allo, I'm fine with Eve not being in the cop bloc, and if Allo flips town then clearly I am misreading parts of the gamestate and would be absolutely willing to re-evaluate or cop her. That's part of why she's prob-town: my most confident townreads I don't think would change in my eyes solely on an Allo townflip.
Yeah I mean I can see that. I feel some mixed feelings about Skitter too. I don't think her attacks on Smart are legitimate - especially not if she has any history with Smart - and I feel the pushback on the way TLDNE looked at Saus is really opportunistic and not giving TLDNE any benefit of the doubt at all, esp given that Skit even mirrored some of those same thoughts previously.In post 543, Auro wrote: I think Skitter is town. However, not even close to how much I would have to promote her to the townbloc.
She agrees with you about Eve being mislynch bait. Do you not see town equity from that, as similar mindsets about things seems to be a strong +town indicator for you?
Skitter didn't respond to my case for 1/0. I see that as a sign of acceptance. What should I be reading into? If scum trying to legitimately push 1/0 she'd probably respond to that.
Her other attacks on Smart regarding his shading of my proposed strategy are legitimate, to my eyes."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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sorry there are pronoun mistakes in many places in that post above, I apologize Allo, I should have proofread that more and I'll try to be a more careful in the future"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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lol it's been a lot even for me hahaIn post 552, The Limit Does Not Exist wrote:Sorry, I'm also more tipsy than I thought and the Auro/GL back and forth is beyond my comprehension for tonight.
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tbh I was tempted to whine a lil bit about continuing to litigate all these points but then I thought that'd be kinda unfair to a town!Auro and also exactly the opposite of me trying to effort as much as needed for y'all to townread me so I was able to suck it up and deal with it
I'll try to keep the crazy walls down tho"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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I didn't say this before but I do agree leashing the cop is bad. I'm fine with doing some negotiating of who is on or off a wagon but cop should always have flexibility to investigate whoever they want of the off-wagon pool"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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no worries it's mafia you do you, I can deal with being annoyed with questions I only care in the sense if it starts becoming unreadable for other players, but I can also take responsibility to try to end roads of discussion that don't feel productive"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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I guess I just don't understand why we need to have explicit confirmation of an innocent, at the expense of frustrating the cop from following their own reads, and creating a need for infinite arguments in thread about "what happens if [x] flips town, what happens if [x] flips scum" and the multitude of associative branches that people are going to want to push. Usually cops can just crumb their innos in a way that makes it obvious in hindsight who they investigated. It's not hard to drop a few subtle-in-the-moment-but-clear-with-knowledge-of-role hints over the course of the next day"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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also it doesn't come up often but I think the trail of investigations/crumbs from those investigations can be really beneficial in a CC situation where cops try to make arguments for why they investigated who, that can be very limiting to scum in some situations if they didn't plan well for it. Having a designated investigation removes that advantage and increases the risk of a gnarly CC scenario in LYLO. Which is why cop should out the day before then, for the record"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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i'm sorry WHAT did you just sayIn post 569, Auro wrote:If I was scum I wouldn't really be scared of Skitter/GL/Nomnomnom as much"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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Hi, who should I be scum reading instead? You're voting me instead of either Eve/Allo, do you think both are town? Who's my partner in your eyes rn?In post 598, skitter30 wrote:also, hi, let's talk about why you're scumreading me
also I see some other stuff I wanna respond to but I just skimmed and don't have energy right this second, I'll prob post a lot more in a bit"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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as for one reason why I'm scumreading you, it's pretty bad townplay to vanity vote me here instead of actually taking stances on either of the L-2 or L-3 wagons and I expect better from you for that. scum!skitter last time I played with her similarly ended the first day not being or discussing either of the major wagons of the day"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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also explain thisIn post 598, skitter30 wrote:also feels tmi-y to me
is the TMI part that I think Eve is good odds of a mislynch? Or that I am talking to Auro as if I believe he's town? Why are either of those more likely to come from scum!me then town!me"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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In post 593, skitter30 wrote:
uh no, it's disingenuous, ate-y, and acting like i'm incapable of changing my mindIn post 517, GuiltyLion wrote:lol I don't know how anyone can read posts like 514 and think that limit hydra is scum
Allo/skit kinda feels like The Solve for me rn.
sooooo... you agree with me TLDNE hydra is town here, yes?In post 611, skitter30 wrote:
i think her engagement back on this is p decent, and the more i'm bickering with her about this, the more i'm feeling we're both very firmly entrenched in believing that 'our side is right' and I've been sniping back because i feel like she isn't really understanding my pov, so i feel like i need to keep repeating myself to get my point acrossIn post 609, Auro wrote:I don't feel that Lilith is coming from a place of intentional misrepresentation though, I think she just doesn't understand the double standards that others perceive. Skitter, what do you feel about Lilith's continued engagement on this?
and i think she's doing the same thing to me, and that she's annoyed with me for the same reasons, and so i'm not entirely sure i can fault her for that
i am willing to acknowledge that she may have misunderstood rex's initial post about eve, and the more i'm bickering about this the more i'm kinda feeling like she sincerely believes what she's arguing"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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already have more posts in this game than in my recent Newbie scum game now btw, which was twice as long
you're so willing to townbin Allo for playing similar to town games, yet can't seem to give me any credit whatsoever when this should really obviously stand apart from my most recent scumgames"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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like WHO ACTUALLY SAYS THIS about SOMEONE THEY'RE VOTINGIn post 482, Allomancer wrote:I feel like you're getting a bit townier, but I still scumread you
like sure yes I do owe it to you to go try to read some town!Allo games
but like
comeon"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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We agree 1/0 is town. Anyone who attacks that slot at this point is going to get flak from me, it's not a pro-town move at all and just reads like trying to open up a future lynchpool. And then skitter winds up... townreading 1/0 anyway. Either she's not thinking at all and just messily posting lazy takes or she's scum."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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In post 578, Auro wrote:Agreeing with the conclusion doesn't mean you can't attack the process
also on this,In post 582, skitter30 wrote:
i guess ultimately what i'm getting back to is it seems unreasonable to me that you were dinging auro townpoints because he didn't see the difference between your town and scumgamesIn post 504, GuiltyLion wrote:honestly I think that I have, that was kinda how the whole discussion started, but I'm willing to acknowledge that to other players who don't know my alignment it may not be that easy to see
like, sure, I probably am being unreasonable about it. I tend to overreact to people who I expect to townread me not townreading me
but
why do you think I'm scum for that? Isn't this like extremely plausible to come from a town!GL
thinking on it I've noticed this pattern from you before, you seem reactive to ways I try to pull towncred as town and then decide I'm scum because you don't like it, rather than like actually considering whether there's town motivation in doing what I do
if you're town here I realllyyyy need you to engage more with Eve/Allo slots and give me stuff to work with on those fronts"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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whoops, was gonna respond to that Auro post but had decided against it, basically like I kinda disagree but I was able to see where you're coming from, but usually I'm more interested in outcomes and generating info rather than like petty squabbling with people who mutually share your scumreads"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Auro that... seems like a rather disingenuous example? In that game, you were accusing Allo fornotvoting Creature and vote hopping around elsewhere. Allo doesn't ever wind up voting Creature, who Allo was waffling on. That's kinda the opposite of the charge here - Allo RVS voted, then unvoted and didn't vote again until pressured to do so. And then keeps its vote on acryon despite saying acryon is appearing townier. That stands in sharp contrast to the ISO in that game you linked, where Allo wagon hops several times as reads fluctuate. Vote hopping is generally fine with me. Having to be nagged to vote, and then saying you're re-evaluating someone that you're still voting when you're the only person voting them, is not."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I agree with this, Karnage is falling off in my reads. But Eve had already beat me to thatIn post 638, Auro wrote:GuiltyLion, you should engage with Karmage about Allo/Eve too."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"