Silent Star 1: Lunacy

[drusilla]

In my experience from playing with midwaybear, he's always scum

VOTE: votato

My vote is probably misplaced on you, I feel like you're always getting wagoned early.

VOTE: skitter30

A little too cheery for me

this (making an rvs post seemingly designed to draw reactions; moving us out of rvs) is towny behaviour. towny behaviour i've previously emulated as mafia so i'm sure dunnstral would easily be able to do so as well, but towny behaviour nonetheless. skitter may have been doing the same thing with the exclamation points but it is hard for me to tell.

just gonna say this from the top and maybe ill do better sticking to it: im going to be making an effort to limit the hours in which im an active participant in this game. i enjoy mafia a lot but i also find it exhausting when im constantly thinking about it which leads to apathy. please do me a big favor and yell at me if you notice im posting in the thread all throughout the day. i will be happier and honestly probably better/more engaged in this game if i can practice a little restraint.

why share this? i understand the logic of holding yourself to that but do you have an expectation of others actually discouraging you from posting throughout the day?

i would love to hear arguments why it's ai though

was this the point of the exclamation points? to gauge reactions to them?

You’re arguing that it’s fake, I don’t think that’s what I was trying to get at at all.

trying to delineate between these arguments feels pretty forced to me. skitter actively chose to use exclamation points in a way that is uncommon for her.

beeboy can be town for now(not really sure why)

gutscum on midway but i couldn't possibly quantify why at this time

possibly noteworthy.

[drusilla]

Why is there a 25 minute gap between your initial read and the elaboration to it without new information?

Basically what I am getting at is your retroactively justifying a read based on my thread opening.

do you think the elaboration was due to your/votato's reaction to the original post?

[drusilla]

literally cuz i was in a good mood. not sure why people are attributing more to it than that

it is hard not to when it is unexpected. i don't think it is ai necessarily but i think the reactions to it could be.

[drusilla]

oh, hello drusilla; i know exactly who you are!

hello; i know exactly who you are as well. this account isn't meant to be a secret i just thought it was a fitting character for the flavour (stars + lunacy).

[drusilla]

This would be the play, find a hole then build a read around the hole you saw.

could you answer this please:

Why is there a 25 minute gap between your initial read and the elaboration to it without new information?

Basically what I am getting at is your retroactively justifying a read based on my thread opening.

do you think the elaboration was due to your/votato's reaction to the original post?

was kinda hoping someone would react to my first post but i guess you all just don't care about me. i see how it is.

just gonna say this from the top and maybe ill do better sticking to it: im going to be making an effort to limit the hours in which im an active participant in this game. i enjoy mafia a lot but i also find it exhausting when im constantly thinking about it which leads to apathy. please do me a big favor and yell at me if you notice im posting in the thread all throughout the day. i will be happier and honestly probably better/more engaged in this game if i can practice a little restraint.

why share this? i understand the logic of holding yourself to that but do you have an expectation of others actually discouraging you from posting throughout the day?

additionally, what sort of reactions were you hoping for?

[drusilla]

could you answer this please:

Why is there a 25 minute gap between your initial read and the elaboration to it without new information?

Basically what I am getting at is your retroactively justifying a read based on my thread opening.

do you think the elaboration was due to your/votato's reaction to the original post?

i guess beeboy is going to continue to ignore me. in post 164 he is self-conscious about commenting on the time stamps which would imply he had thought about it but in context it doesn't really make sense to me. tuxedo mask made his first post, then votato and beeboy each commented on it, then tuxedo mask elaborated on his first post. like it was a response to those. at least that's how i read it.

i think skitter is town and lilith is prolly townish, but i think for lilith ill wait until later to sort her. i get solid townpings from votato. perhaps my strongest townread. something is off for sure about dunnstral. the logical conclusion is that dunn is scum.

My eyes are drawn to my name like a moth is drawn to a flame which provokes a primal rage that makes me not read the surrounding posts. Why are you talking about yourself like that in that post?

It's almost like that post was meant for somebody else to post...

this doesn't feel like a real thought. are you saying that votato might have written that post for somebody else to post but mistakenly posted it himself? or somebody else wrote that for somebody else to post and votato misunderstood and posted it? neither makes much sense to me.

[drusilla]

This is better posting by Tux. I specifically like how he calls Nahdia's elaboration since better (rather than just give a blanket statement that nahdia is scum, especially when many have expressed suspicions on Nahdia recently). I also see what he means with votato

how do you feel about tuxedo mask disengaging from both votato and beeboy?

[drusilla]

drusilla what are your reads?

i liked dunnstral's opening but his staying on skitter (which she also pointed out) feels weird to me. skitter feels towny to me. i don't really understand the handful of people saying kanna feels towny to them as i too have experience with her and i don't have any semblance of a read either way. morning tweet does seem towny to me though and the townread of kanna was most frequently coupled with a townread of morning tweet so maybe i am missing something. i kinda liked nahdia's interpretation of the beeboy/tuxedo mask situation because i had a similar thought.

Was there more to talk about with regards to beeboy? I recall Tux wrapping that up since it seemed most people disagreed. It didn't seem like it was going anywhere to me

With votato hmm. Do you mean 286? votato had just said "well i townread you now lets townblock" and tux replied "We'll see" and asked a question. I don't think i see what you're getting at

with regards to votato i meant 286 as well as the joke about being mafia together as well as 309. it seemed strange to me that he would present his read on each of them as 'i don't know but i'm going to take a step back'. like it was potentially due to the pressure on him.

Drusilla why did you ask that question in particular I find it relatively odd?

it stood out to me. like you weren't actually reading the posts beyond it being a scumread of you.

[drusilla]

@Drusilla what do you think of Tux disengaging? Is more the question I wanted to know why you asked. Sorry that was unclear. What is your answer to that question?

oh sorry. it felt unnatural to me, and i asked morning tweet because she is familiar with him and had just made a comment about him.

[drusilla]

like i don't think i've ever thought 'i don't have a read on this player let me take a step back' with regards to one player let alone two players in one post.

[drusilla]

skitter feels towny to me.

can you elaborate on this? also, do you mind sharing more of your conclusions? i have to admit i sometimes find it hard to follow your line of questioning/thought process (even though i find it fascinating!)

sure. skitter's play hasn't felt advantageous in the way i would expect it to if she were mafia. i asked her about potentially town indicative reasons for her use of exclamation points which she shot down in favour of 'good mood', which is nai. i don't see a mafia benefit to her engagement with dunnstral as it is very unlikely to be theatre (due to the way it began) and posts 113 and 120 made sense to me.

i am unsure as to which line of questioning/thought process you are finding it hard to follow but i can try to elucidate the main ones. i asked skitter about the exclamation marks because i too found them noteworthy and she was bristling at the mafia reasoning being assigned to them by dunnstral so i wanted to see how she would react to town reasoning being assigned to them. i explained why i asked beeboy about his reaction to tuxedo mask's first posts here (and here):

i guess beeboy is going to continue to ignore me. in post 164 he is self-conscious about commenting on the time stamps which would imply he had thought about it but in context it doesn't really make sense to me. tuxedo mask made his first post, then votato and beeboy each commented on it, then tuxedo mask elaborated on his first post. like it was a response to those. at least that's how i read it.

it stood out to me. like you weren't actually reading the posts beyond it being a scumread of you.

i asked dunnstral about the following:

i think skitter is town and lilith is prolly townish, but i think for lilith ill wait until later to sort her. i get solid townpings from votato. perhaps my strongest townread. something is off for sure about dunnstral. the logical conclusion is that dunn is scum.

My eyes are drawn to my name like a moth is drawn to a flame which provokes a primal rage that makes me not read the surrounding posts. Why are you talking about yourself like that in that post?

It's almost like that post was meant for somebody else to post...

this doesn't feel like a real thought. are you saying that votato might have written that post for somebody else to post but mistakenly posted it himself? or somebody else wrote that for somebody else to post and votato misunderstood and posted it? neither makes much sense to me.

because it felt like he was trying to say votato was mafia for a reason that didn't seem to hold up under even the most cursory of thought. i would still like dunnstral to address this.

How did the responses to these questions help you sort beeboy and nahdia (or how did you hope the responses would help with sorting them when you asked the questions)?

beeboy's response kinda helped me to see it from his perspective. or at least it feels consistent with his reaction. it is still hard for me to see that exchange as tuxedo mask making a read and then spending 25 minutes justifying it as opposed to elaborating on it due to reactions. i guess i was hoping for nahdia to explain why they made the original post because it seemed like an expectation they wouldn't actually have of other players so it seemed more likely to me that it was to preemptively explain possible observable differences in play. when they said that they were hoping someone would react to it i noted that it is strange that someone looking for reactions to their post would have missed my reaction, as well as the possibility that they had some way of gauging reactions to it, so i asked what reactions they were hoping for as well. from nahdia's response it seemed like they hadn't really thought about it but i didn't know what to make of that.

[drusilla]

What do the 4 people above think about the gamestate right now? What is scum doing at the moment?

it feels like scum is trying to see what wagon will stick. votato was giving momentum to any upcoming wagon but it felt similar to his play in mantis leadership:

viewtopic.php?p=11893795&user_select%5B ... #p11893795

beeboy and kanna felt like they were feeling out support for pressuring me, whereas lilith felt like she was sorting me.

I think Drusilla is asking questions that I don't believe are particularly helpful for them solving people and I don't really understand the story they are trying to tell within their posts.

the first half of this seems to be taken from this post by lilith:

@skitter this was kind of a weird post to me because I felt the opposite of that here - like I’m not sure how these questions would help her discover beeboy’s or nahdia’s alignments

and the second half doesn't make sense to me. what story am i supposed to be telling?

I don't think he is town yet but I am moving towards being unsure because I am getting pings elsewhere from Votato and Drusilla

would you have moved your vote to me had someone else voted for me in the way you moved your vote to votato when raven branwen placed her vote there?

kanna moved her vote to skitter:

idk if anyone will go with me on this, but skitter could be scum

in a way that felt like too aware? and also her reads feel very static. she presented her readslist in post 394 which included her poe and all of her posts since then aside from answering a question about her readslist have been with regards to those within that poe. maybe that (narrowing down her poe) is the approach she is taking here but it feels very mechanical.

you are townier now because you seem to actually be scumhunting wrt your comments on lillith

? dunnstral's comments on lilith came long before you said dunnstral was probably scum unless you very specifically mean his question 'why is lilith probably town?'.

[drusilla]

drusilla what do you mean kanna is "too aware"?

it felt like she had been thinking about both how much support she would have for her push on skitter and how that push would look to others. others had previously been townread for pushing skitter and for starting wagons with little support and to borrow kanna's word her push felt convenient.

@Drusilla I came up with that concern around the time I asked you about an individual question you asked, again you did it again with some other questions which is why I stated it more directly similar to Lilith. Which I think if you are trying to profile my progression on you, you would notice / try to remember that point? 352 and 353 in particular is when that concern actually hit my mind.

Honestly if someone else voted you I probably would have, but you have a solid point I should just do it anyway.
VOTE: Drusilla

i considered your questioning of my question of morning tweet about tuxedo mask and i thought maybe it was slightly towny that you corrected me when i thought you were asking about my question of you but the question itself felt like you had a conclusion in mind beforehand, similar to kanna's questioning of my line of questioning. like i said before it felt like you were feeling out support for pressuring me.

[drusilla]

The second instance was me stating a read you, I can see how you'd interpret it that way although you'd be wrong and I don't really see how I'd communicate my read in another manner? I expressed how I had that opinion before Lilith, and at the time of Lilith's post I would have the knowledge of both Kanna and Lilith being open to me voting you. So I don't see what I'd be scouting out support for?

The first instance was just me pushing you to some form and I don't really think I need to debate that?



In regards to Kanna why do you think she is scum for playing in that manner? I read it as hesitation or hedging from a player confidence standpoint over a scouting you out stance.
I still feel as though Kanna is town, do you think your read is from your bias of being in your slot or would you hold the same belief from an outside slot?

i guess a lot of it is the timing of it. i asked morning tweet a question, morning tweet's answer made me reconsider the way i was viewing an individual post in the context of other posts, then you asked why i asked that question, etc. had you given the read of me you later gave following this exchange it would seem less suspicious to me but it was some time later you did so, only after kanna and lilith also questioned me. like you were trying to see if they would vote for me before you committed.

i think you may be combining different aspects of my read of kanna. the awareness was with regards to her push on skitter for the reasons i outlined above. the part that felt like kanna was searching for support/looking for a reason to scumread me is the way she presented this:

skitter feels towny to me.

can you elaborate on this? also, do you mind sharing more of your conclusions? i have to admit i sometimes find it hard to follow your line of questioning/thought process (even though i find it fascinating!)

and the lack of followup to my response.

i don't have any basis from which to determine if i would hold the same belief from an outside slot.

independent of that i have kanna as town. post 622 in particular seems like a town thought.

it is not lost on me that this post was about beeboy.

[drusilla]

It's called reevaluation.

okay, why did you choose to reevaluate your read of dunnstral at that time? and why did you originally scumread him? you said dunnstral was probably scum, then when dunnstral asked why you said he was townier now for a reason that predated your scumread.

beeboy and kanna felt like they were feeling out support for pressuring me, whereas lilith felt like she was sorting me.

where did you get the impression i was doing this?

the part that felt like kanna was searching for support/looking for a reason to scumread me is the way she presented this:

skitter feels towny to me.

can you elaborate on this? also, do you mind sharing more of your conclusions? i have to admit i sometimes find it hard to follow your line of questioning/thought process (even though i find it fascinating!)

and the lack of followup to my response.

you asked me a specific question and a very open question, instead of asking other specific questions about what you were finding it hard to follow, and then it didn't seem like my answers made any difference to you. so to me it felt like you were seeing who else might pressure me or looking for a reason to scumread me.

it felt like she had been thinking about both how much support she would have for her push on skitter and how that push would look to others. others had previously been townread for pushing skitter and for starting wagons with little support and to borrow kanna's word her push felt convenient.

what did you think of my points in that push?

i didn't think it was scummy that skitter was pointing out potential associatives as they seemed reasonable enough to me and i also think lilith is towny so that didn't stand out to me either. you had recently asked me to elaborate on my read of skitter and looking at the reasons you had for scumreading her it felt like the reasons i had for townreading her that you didn't openly disagree with were stronger even if i accepted your premises so it added to my feeling that you were working toward a predetermined conclusion.

and the lack of followup to my response.

ftr, i read it and i still mulling over what i think about you. i don't feel the need to reply with "ok" to every answer i get.

i'm not sure how i feel about you scumreading me over me playing "mechanically" which = consistency, but also inconsistency because i didn't state a read on you.

it is not as though lilith's 'cool, thanks' was helpful to me but she asked me a closed question that i was able to determine the likely purpose of, whereas you asked me a question about a read and an open question that seemed like it could serve many purposes. since there was no followup with regards to my read of skitter i would assume that you accepted my read. since there was no followup with regards to the lines of questioning i assumed i addressed the one which you were having trouble following.

what i mean by mechanical is that it feels like you are working from a checklist. like you presented a poe of five people you weren't actively townreading and then only worked from that, asking me, nahdia and lilith a question or two and then simply stating that you townread raven branwen, before voting skitter.

it is not lost on me that this post was about beeboy.

and what would you say this tells you?

i think post 622 is + partner equity for you/beeboy and post 684 is ++ partner equity for both you/nahdia and nahdia/beeboy. is it not noteworthy to you that in response to me scumreading you and beeboy nahdia said you were towny particularly because of a post that was a townread of beeboy presented as an addendum to your other read-elaborations? does that not stand out to you?

then I form a scumread on that person because I think either they’re trying to hide their thought processes

i do not mind answering questions with regards to my thought process after the fact as i have learned that this is something people sometimes have difficulty understanding with regards to me (thanks to clidd) but if i am expected to present it alongside the questions it kinda defeats the purpose. how would i ask skitter about a potential town indicative reason for a behaviour without informing her answer without hiding my thought process, for instance?

I don’t know how I feel about Votato and meta being the main reason for a defense. I know he’s subbed out but was that your only feelings on his slot?

the main reason people were scumreading votato was because he was joining every wagon which i've seen him do as town before. he did something sort of similar in lovers mafia as mafia but it felt different there to me. i don't really see the usefulness of it but it felt like there was an edge to it here, which i think is slightly town indicative.

Like right here, she says that Dunn could have been trying to move us out of RVS, but he also could have been faking it.

it is towny behaviour that is not impossible to fake. i was trying to focus more on the behaviours and less on the motivations of said behaviours due to a discussion in a recent game in which i learned speculative vs factual that contained this post:

The points on porken are speculative because they are prescribing scum motivation to a town behavior (posting content is a town behavior regardless of alignment). However, his motivation could just as easily be a town one.

but that is not something that comes entirely naturally to me. it was overall a townread of dunnstral.

The answer to this is a pretty obvious yes? Of course beeboy feels this way, or else he probably wouldn't be pushing Tuxedo for it.

beeboy's answer indicated that the answer from his point of view was no. to me it seemed like the elaboration was due to beeboy/votato's reaction to the original post. beeboy said he thought tuxedo mask's second post was a justification for the first post not an elaboration due to reactions.

In post 216, drusilla wrote:
additionally, what sort of reactions were you hoping for?

This is referring to Nahdia, but I don't get why this question is even a thing. Why does it even matter?

i addressed this here:

i guess i was hoping for nahdia to explain why they made the original post because it seemed like an expectation they wouldn't actually have of other players so it seemed more likely to me that it was to preemptively explain possible observable differences in play. when they said that they were hoping someone would react to it i noted that it is strange that someone looking for reactions to their post would have missed my reaction, as well as the possibility that they had some way of gauging reactions to it, so i asked what reactions they were hoping for as well. from nahdia's response it seemed like they hadn't really thought about it but i didn't know what to make of that.

My opinion is that Dunnstral was trolling in response to votato saying he townread himself.

this seems unlikely though not impossible to me.

[drusilla]

I was trolling when? I was never trolling

i asked dunnstral about the following:

i think skitter is town and lilith is prolly townish, but i think for lilith ill wait until later to sort her. i get solid townpings from votato. perhaps my strongest townread. something is off for sure about dunnstral. the logical conclusion is that dunn is scum.

My eyes are drawn to my name like a moth is drawn to a flame which provokes a primal rage that makes me not read the surrounding posts. Why are you talking about yourself like that in that post?

It's almost like that post was meant for somebody else to post...

this doesn't feel like a real thought. are you saying that votato might have written that post for somebody else to post but mistakenly posted it himself? or somebody else wrote that for somebody else to post and votato misunderstood and posted it? neither makes much sense to me.

because it felt like he was trying to say votato was mafia for a reason that didn't seem to hold up under even the most cursory of thought. i would still like dunnstral to address this.

In post 598, drusilla wrote:
because it felt like he was trying to say votato was mafia for a reason that didn't seem to hold up under even the most cursory of thought. i would still like dunnstral to address this.

My opinion is that Dunnstral was trolling in response to votato saying he townread himself.

you asked me a specific question and a very open question, instead of asking other specific questions about what you were finding it hard to follow, and then it didn't seem like my answers made any difference to you. so to me it felt like you were seeing who else might pressure me or looking for a reason to scumread me.

it was just like i wanted to see more of what you were doing, because in CoC, i remembered you doing background solving that was similar to your first post. at that point, i found you vaguely scummy, but it was a

shaky (heh)

read. then you elaborated and that feeling still didn't go away even though your logic made sense. so i didn't comment. i don't see how this is different from any other question (regardless of whether it's open/closed)? also, i just don't know how you can come to that conclusion from me asking to see your logic - did you feel pressured? or else, do you think your logic would be faulty to get other people to scumread you?

the difference between the questions is that an open question gives a lot of room to search for something to scumread in the answer whereas the closed question is more likely to result in the question you want answered to be addressed. this is something i recently thought a lot about after i made this post as mafia (partly due to dunnstral's reaction to it):

could you each please walk me through the beginning of day three from your perspectives? i have spent the last hour and a half or so looking over the game and the more i stare at that the more both of your reactions feel like they come from scum.

and realized that this is something much more likely to come from mafia as i would probably not ask it that way as town. your question:

skitter feels towny to me.

can you elaborate on this? also, do you mind sharing more of your conclusions? i have to admit i sometimes find it hard to follow your line of questioning/thought process (even though i find it fascinating!)

seems to serve the same purpose to me. like you were searching for something to scumread or for someone else to scumread, and given the situation of the game (no strong wagon) it felt like what mafia would be looking to do.

you had recently asked me to elaborate on my read of skitter and looking at the reasons you had for scumreading her it felt like the reasons i had for townreading her that you didn't openly disagree with were stronger even if i accepted your premises so it added to my feeling that you were working toward a predetermined conclusion.

i really don't understand this

i don't see any buddying or distancing from skitter in the early game events surrounding her and dunnstral and i don't think that is an opportunity scum!skitter would miss with the game focused on her and she did not accept a potential reason for townreading her when given the option. that seems to far outweigh her talking nicely about lilith/beeboy/me and pointing out potential associatives even if you think those associatives are weak. so it felt like you were working toward the conclusion 'skitter is mafia', not evaluating her.

it is not as though lilith's 'cool, thanks' was helpful to me but she asked me a closed question that i was able to determine the likely purpose of, whereas you asked me a question about a read and an open question that seemed like it could serve many purposes. since there was no followup with regards to my read of skitter i would assume that you accepted my read. since there was no followup with regards to the lines of questioning i assumed i addressed the one which you were having trouble following.

what i mean by mechanical is that it feels like you are working from a checklist. like you presented a poe of five people you weren't actively townreading and then only worked from that, asking me, nahdia and lilith a question or two and then simply stating that you townread raven branwen, before voting skitter.

i addressed some of the first paragraph in that other post, but yes, i accepted it.

and i can't really respond to the second, but i guess that's just how i scumhunt.

honestly, i'm still not sure how i feel about you, so i'm going to look through some past games tomorrow (probably)

is this... true? i looked through your games and couldn't find a similar instance of you creating a limited subset to scumhunt within and then solely doing so.

for your convenience (and to out my public accounts):

my two most recent games as town:
mystery box of silver gnine (as hari): viewtopic.php?f=83&t=83367 and
mantis leadership (as inutile): viewtopic.php?f=83&t=83294

and my most recent game as mafia:
gacha mafia (as shiki): viewtopic.php?f=23&t=83059

i think post 622 is + partner equity for you/beeboy and post 684 is ++ partner equity for both you/nahdia and nahdia/beeboy. is it not noteworthy to you that in response to me scumreading you and beeboy nahdia said you were towny particularly because of a post that was a townread of beeboy presented as an addendum to your other read-elaborations? does that not stand out to you?

also, no?? can you elaborate on what your theory is here?

i do not have one unified theory but rather various thoughts to weigh against eachother. post 622 is + partner equity for you/beeboy because it stands out from your other elaborations. and if beeboy and nahdia are partners, it makes sense for nahdia to say you are town because of your townread of beeboy because then you are more likely to defend him in this situation as well. and if you and nahdia are partners, it makes sense for nahdia to say you are town because of your townread of beeboy because then beeboy is more likely to defend you. it doesn't seem all that likely that all three of you are mafia, but it seems extremely coincidental that nahdia's response to my scumread of you and beeboy was to say you are town because of your townread of beeboy, especially since that didn't seem like an excessively towny post to me.

the main reason people were scumreading votato was because he was joining every wagon which i've seen him do as town before. he did something sort of similar in lovers mafia as mafia but it felt different there to me. i don't really see the usefulness of it but it felt like there was an edge to it here, which i think is slightly town indicative.

can you also explain what feels different and what edge are you talking about?

like in lovers it felt like votato felt the need to somewhat explain why he was scumreading the person he was voting/moving his vote to or at least to lay the foundation for it but in this game and in mantis leadership it felt more like he was trying to antagonize people into being scum?

ugh so many people going "woe is me"

It's called reevaluation.

okay, why did you choose to reevaluate your read of dunnstral at that time? and why did you originally scumread him? you said dunnstral was probably scum, then when dunnstral asked why you said he was townier now for a reason that predated your scumread.

^

[drusilla]

Alts are so trendy nowadays. Shiki is a good choice for one, I need to mod fate mafia one day B)

shiki is my main i guess, or at least it is the one with gtkas/speakeasy access. could you answer tuxedo mask's question here:

@Beeboy can you explain why Drussila is scum for me?

as i too would like to know.

[drusilla]

I think Drusilla hunting for me as a partner with other people isn't actually townie and is just the thoughts she can present to the thread.

that post by nahdia seems so unlikely to just happen to happen to me. like i know going down this road has caused me problems before but if you said skitter and i were mafia right now, and nahdia replied that she thought skitter was towny for her townread of me, what would you think?

[drusilla]

you just don't recognize me giving Nahdia space because we are friends

feels like beeboy doth protest too much. giving nahdia space isn't part of my read nor was it something i ever mentioned?

I don't see how this early you can be making partner associations

Bleh Drusilla's reads just don't feel right to me. I just don't see how a reasonable individual just keeps pairing people off, rather then just targeting me as an individual.

Maybe she just has this insane bias against the mannerism of my posting which is why she paired me off with both Kanna and Nahdia since she has having trouble vocalizing a read in another way?

the association with nahdia came after i explained my scumread of you. the partner associations are due to me being asked to elaborate as to why i thought post 684 was noteworthy here:

it is not lost on me that this post was about beeboy.

and what would you say this tells you?

i made a similar observation here:

beeboy can be town for now(not really sure why)

gutscum on midway but i couldn't possibly quantify why at this time

possibly noteworthy.

and had kanna asked me what this tells me i would have said it was + partner equity for midwaybear and skitter. that does not mean that i think they are definitely partners or that they are only scum with eachother, but that those posts make it more likely than it would otherwise be to me. i think you are focusing on the partner associations and implying that the only way that i am town is if i am an unreasonable person or biased against you to discredit me.

MT just went super tryhard, so that's town right?

yep.

but i dont like how she seems to just use me being scum as a baseline assumption without, justifying it? like, to read beeboy or kanna as partners.

i was asked to explain why i thought your post was noteworthy. outside of it i think you are more likely to be town than either beeboy or kanna as i've previously indicated.

I also don't see much momentum heading towards Drusilla so I moved my vote if you want my particular tactical reason. If I ever see votes move onto Drusilla that makes them viable I will move onto them.

ah, so now you are openly doing what i thought you were doing earlier in a clandestine manner with regards to feeling out support for pressuring me.

do you really think this read is reliable? although, the fact that you did bring up your own game with this makes me feel like you prepared it as backup if this conversation got to this stage

i think that it is, yes. it is very hard to research because there is no way to search for instances of it beyond reading game after game after game and it isn't something i had thought to look for until gacha mafia. i brought up my own game because i was finding it difficult to explain the open/closed question thing otherwise and that is the post it goes back to.

i don't see any buddying or distancing from skitter in the early game events surrounding her and dunnstral and i don't think that is an opportunity scum!skitter would miss with the game focused on her and she did not accept a potential reason for townreading her when given the option. that seems to far outweigh her talking nicely about lilith/beeboy/me and pointing out potential associatives even if you think those associatives are weak. so it felt like you were working toward the conclusion 'skitter is mafia', not evaluating her.

what's your experience with skitter? how familiar are you with her play? do you think i should have picked up on this and townread her? i don't understand your conclusion at all

other than you, i am the most familiar with skitter from this playerlist. we previously played together in newbie 1992 and mystery box of silver gnine and i have read many of her games outside of that. her play in jazz mafia is one of the reasons i joined the site. i do not think you would have had to have individually picked up on what i did in order to townread her because you asked me to elaborate on my read of skitter, a read you said you then accepted, so i would have expected you to weigh the information i presented against the information that was informing your read of skitter which you had not yet presented.

yes? i think i'm playing pretty normally, although thinking back, i did post a readlist which i don't normally do which i feel like most of this is based on. what do you think if i told you i just felt like posting one this time?

it isn't simply that you posted a readslist - you had done this at a similar point in one of your newbie games as well - but that the readslist this game contained a poe which you then solely worked from, which i do not believe is pretty normal or even something you've ever done before, and in general creating a limited subset to scumhunt within is scum indicative. maybe i am explaining this very poorly (since morning tweet also seemed to think the 'mechanical' read was based solely on the readslist) so i will try again:

you present a readslist. at the bottom of this readslist is a five person poe: skitter, lilith, raven branwen, nahdia, me.
you then ask me to elaborate on my read of skitter and the open question previously discussed.
you then ask nahdia about their read of beeboy (and beeboy about something nahdia pointed out in the same post) and lilith why she says she is out of her scumrange.
you then ask skitter a couple questions and respond to raven branwen asking you to elaborate on your readlist.
you then say you like raven branwen and vote skitter.

this sort of 'mechanical' 'following a checklist' (sorry i really don't know how to else to describe it. like you thought of where you were going, drew a map to get there, and followed it.) seems very scummy to me.

i do not have one unified theory but rather various thoughts to weigh against eachother. post 622 is + partner equity for you/beeboy because it stands out from your other elaborations. and if beeboy and nahdia are partners, it makes sense for nahdia to say you are town because of your townread of beeboy because then you are more likely to defend him in this situation as well. and if you and nahdia are partners, it makes sense for nahdia to say you are town because of your townread of beeboy because then beeboy is more likely to defend you. it doesn't seem all that likely that all three of you are mafia, but it seems extremely coincidental that nahdia's response to my scumread of you and beeboy was to say you are town because of your townread of beeboy, especially since that didn't seem like an excessively towny post to me.

this could be me being dumb but i still don't know why that means anything. in my question, i wanted you to explain what your theory was when you said it "stood out" - do you think in this situation all three of us are mafia? one? two? and why do you think the actions taken would make sense in that situation?

post 622 stands out because you presented it separately from your other elaborations:

clover is towny because .., morning/votato/tux are towny because .., dunnstral/clover/midway are towny because .., everyone else i haven't found a reason to townread.
next post: oh i forgot beeboy. beeboy is town because ...

so the most memorable of your reads is naturally beeboy is town.

it seems unlikely to me that all three of you are mafia, as i said in the post you quoted. it is most likely that only one of you are mafia, but quite possible that two of you are as well. i also explained why the actions taken would make sense in the post you quoted.

as i tried to explain to beeboy, it means something because nahdia's post seems unlikely to happen organically. i said beeboy and you are scummy. nahdia then said you are towny because of your townread of beeboy. maybe it doesn't make sense to ask you, but does 622 feel super towny to you? like if you had to pick one of your posts to say this is why i'm town so far would that have been the one? it seems more chosen because of the surrounding events than a real read to me.

that post by nahdia seems so unlikely to just happen to happen to me. like i know going down this road has caused me problems before but if you said skitter and i were mafia right now, and nahdia replied that she thought skitter was towny for her townread of me, what would you think?

by "going down this road," i'm assuming you mean conspiracy theories, right? and if so, why are you choosing to go down this road?

from memory, i think you stepped away from these and focused on more grounded theories for scumhunting - would you agree?

i think you are (potentially intentionally) conflating two somewhat related but disconnected things, at least in my mind. the 'conspiracy theories' (example: viewtopic.php?p=11740253#p11740253 ) are something i have stepped away from for the most part. you know why i stopped playing on team rocket queen (as i explained it to your hydra in hungarian music 2) and the 'conspiracy theories' create the same associations with me. i still chase the thoughts that would lead me there (this quote from the opening flavour:

You see, people have been dropping dead like it's the Black Death all over again.

paired with this image from shortly thereafter:

The eccentric man wielding the Top Hat - which you must admit is quite magnificent - leads you through the streets of Lunacy. They are barren and there is not a person in sight.

Spoiler:

which leads to 'the plague days' when reverse image searched makes it pretty unlikely that the first reference was a turn of phrase and thus rather likely that there is some sort of infection-related mechanic)

but i no longer present these in the same way because of the effect they have on the game. like 'town if she derails the game' is undesirable to me.

by 'going down this road' i simply meant noting what seems like a very unlikely coincidence. i have a somewhat shaky trackrecord with regards to this, as micro blitz iii or the aforementioned hungarian music would show, but if i believed more in myself and my thoughts in mystery box of silver gnine (that it was very unlikely that bugspray would have wholly invented the knife; which i noted but did not push extensively) town might have won. i was saying i am aware of the mistakes i have previously made in the realm of strange coincidences but even having considered that this still stands out to me.

went through shiki's meta and i think i'm scumleaning her now. as town, she has more good faith takes and is more at the forefront of the game, while as scum, she does more background solving. she's also a bit agenda-y in pushing someone with reasons that are ok, but not the most *likely* (like doctorpepper in that gacha game). i feel like she might be doing that to me now actually; if she has to come up with conspiracy style reasoning for a scumread + draw a connections, she might not believe in it. it's like she saw the opportunity first and made a case around that, i think

also, i think i should be able to understand more of these theories if it came from a good place. in CoC, i remember i didn't mindmeld on anything as well. shiki, are you trying to mislynch me? it kinda hurts...

i can think of a handful of games i was at the forefront of as town and just as many if not more that i was not. the 'conspiracy style reasoning' was based on a thought i had about a single post made by nahdia that you asked me to elaborate on, not the basis for my scumread, as it came after.

i think you know i'm not. even this feels manipulative because you know how much i dislike upsetting people by incorrectly scumreading them (most notably datisi is newbie 1992, morning tweet in mystery box hate).

[drusilla]

for kanna forever ago

Spoiler:

not sure how to describe it, but for pretty much all those reasons, i can't comment, but i just don't see it. i don't particularly see those opportunities, nor am i really familiar with skitter's play and it's all ??? i can't even comment on your read on it. does that clear it up?

i guess, at least with regards to why you would have asked for my read but not take it account or disagree with it.

yes, i get it, and out of the points you mentioned, i think this is the one that makes most sense. however, like i said, i feel like this only ties together because i posted a readlist which i don't normally do. i asked you, if i told you i just wanted to post a readlist this game, what would you think? is it possible for you to consider a situation for if i was town? but you're kind of ignoring me there. but overall, i do understand this.

i thought about whether it would make sense for you to do as town:

maybe that (narrowing down her poe) is the approach she is taking here but it feels very mechanical.

and that is why i looked through your games and i found numerous games where you posted readslists and one where you posted a readslist at approximately the same point in the game but working from those readslists as town you weren't focused on your poe in a similar way. so presenting a readslist didn't feel abnormal to me, and if you told me you just wanted to post a readslist this game, i guess i would like to know if you usually work mechanically with the knowledge of your poe in mind without presenting it? but that seems unlikely to me because you haven't worked that way when you did present a readslist so why would you work that way from a mental readslist?

maybe? i can kind of see it considering beeboy townread me for a similar reason in killswitch though. but, this is what i mean by "conspiracy theory" where i feel like there's a too much leaping for me to believe it caught your eye naturally if you were scumhunting for most-likely solutions and more like you're using your powers to misdirect.

i don't really understand how it is a leap or why you would expect town!me not to notice it but scum!me to notice it. it was a direct response to my scumreads of you and beeboy, so of course i am going to notice that it is a townread of you based on your townread of beeboy. i also don't believe that you think that

that

is how i would use my 'powers to misdirect'. and what would i be misdirecting from? i am kinda at a loss here. i presented my reads, nahdia responded, i noted that it was strange. you asked me to elaborate as to why, which led to you saying i am scum creating a conspiracy theory and beeboy saying i am scum for making partner associations.

really?/? i haven't read those games, although i do feel the same way. but at the same time, this is mafia and i think you will definitely want to win - you did target doctorpepper in gacha mafia and CoC. i don't like the use of "manipulative" as a blanket shade though.

i have bad memory and don't remember much of hungarian, but what i'm trying to say here is i feel like you're reverting to not-super-likely theories (e.g the open ended question thing = casting suspicion on you, and the predetermined conclusion thing) to scumread me. it feels...nitpicky(?) and since i know you play more grounded lately, i don't think you really think this. the only thing i'm hesitating about is it's true i don't think you would target me specifically considering we are friends.

not sure as to how the pushes of doctorpepper are relevant. i don't generally like to use 'manipulative' either; i apologize for that. this:

shiki, are you trying to mislynch me? it kinda hurts...

felt like you knew i was upset/worried about potentially being wrong. and there are probably a few ways i may have been unfair to you here. i pay more attention to your posts than others. i think you also pay more attention to my posts than many other players due to the number of people who seem not to actually read them. and maybe i wouldn't have tried so hard to verify things if it was someone else. anyway, yesterday i thought it was pretty likely you were mafia. today i think it is quite likely we are aligned.



with regards to the open ended question thing, here are all of the questions you asked in your first three games as town and your first game as mafia (not counting the marathon games; i haven't yet had time to compile the rest):

newbie 1971
Was this a joke or was it serious?
Why is it likely to come from scum?
Can I ask why you’re voting for me? Is it because you think I'm not being helpful or do you think I'm scum?
Why would I react? And ok? So do you scumread me or not? What?
Again MW, do you scumread me or not?
@Uncrowned, what is your opinion on Map Wolf?
@Map Wolf, what is your opinion on Uncrowned?
What do you mean by opportunistic vibes? Why haven't you looked into them if you got opportunistic vibes?
Seriously, what do you think about Uncrowned?? Also hmmmm so do you scumread skitter?
Do you mean this?
MW, can you also explain this?
Wouldn't it be more natural to joke about lynching him if he were scum?
Like who?
Like who's to say it's not just a cop out for scummy behaviour?
Being new, don't you think there was a relatively high chance I would "break" if you attacked me? And if I did, would you (as town) be fully ok with lynching me when my mess up could just be because I was inexperienced? I'm honestly less convinced it was a reaction test and more so it was a trap. Also, would me not breaking really even tell you I'm town?
Also just to clarify; so Uncrowned, you are admitting that you were being very unfair to me in that push right?
Is more coming?
About my reaction; was I even townie in that reaction? Are you sure you didn't just back off because everyone defended me and it was hard for you to keep going?
But seriously why GBJ?
Who are you trying to trick?
Map Wolf, what do you really think? And why??
Can we pile on Map please?
^ should I wait for this?
@Billy; why...would you vote Non?
What are you talking about?
I really disagree about non...seriously why is he most likely to be scum?
^Is this really evidence for your innocence though?

newbie 1975
Why is everyone voting thegildedsun?
Why did you TR this post?
Can you quote it please?
Does anyone want me to answer it?
Missed this before but what was this responding to?
can you explain where you got the percentages from?
why is that a strong enough scumhunting attempt for a tr?
Why Egix over Gobble, Ircher?
Why’s that convincing enough for you to back down?
Egix, you’re reading the first 3 pages?
And what if I think this is undercutting?
What do you think of Egix, Cheeky?
Actually if you were scumreading Egix the whole way through, shouldn't he be your biggest scumread > your vote be on him? Why did you vote Ircher?
What specifically was it in those posts that made you change your mind + why couldn’t I have voted you if I was scum?
how is any of this AI?
Also did you just claim?
Ok, I'm a newb; can you explain how vote count analysis works and why did you reach your conclusion?
Also this was why I don't think the hammer makes Non scum, did you read this?
Don't know, why not?
Secondly, not sure I agree with the logic for the first paragraph > why say non took her word for her claim?
Are you guys trying to build a conterwagon based on Mama’s vote?
Also what did you think about my comments in #352?
How so?
Can you address stuff on last page, Cheeky?
Can we talk about this?
what happened to "Hectic 100% scum"? Is it cause he's a hard push? Cause he defended you?
Non, can you answer questions; specifically why did you say "it's unlikely we're in column B" or whatever and also why (if you still do) TR me?
Is massclaim a good idea today?
do you have a guilty?
okie dokie, should I hammer then?

newbie 1976
Do you remember, Map?
Why are the reasons for scumreading you bad but your reason for scumreading Map good?
Datisi, why did you unvote Norway?
Why would you TR map just over how he hopped on a wagon?
^ this kind of tmi tring is kinda what you did last game as scum, remember? Are you scum again, GBJ?
Won't they be fishing for PRs though?
Non are you following me?
@Naerys; do you think the votes on you are unfair? + why or why not?
Really though? I skimmed through 1965 before and I didn’t think he was weird. Can you elaborate?
Kinda don’t follow here; why is she town based on how she got a lot of votes (what makes it different to GBJ?)
are you playing or?
Do you think GBJ is scummy, Map?
This question is kinda weird; what does me saying I want to wait for a replacement have to do with me voting GBJ?
Why?
Actually, can I ask why people individually find GBJ scummy?
Do you find him just not providing reasoning scummy and not the actual actions?
Why do you think it’s Non?

micro 922 (mafia)
Does anyone like coffee here, maybe?
DOES ANYONE LIKE COFFEE??
What's your progression wrt to Compath?
@Ame, what inspired your RQS?
@Hectic; but what if some people can't function without their morning/afternoon/night cups of coffee??
Why did you like them?
@Ame; will you explain your rqs ~eventually~?
Why wasn't slaxx included?
You might have to rephrase that second question for me: are you asking me what *you* disliked on a second pass?
@Clidd, what do you think about Slaxx?
Is it the game Luca linked?
I had a look at that game you linked and you were reallllyyy against RQS there, why were you accepting of Ame in this game?
@clidd, do you have any other scumgames I can look at?
@clidd, you're not hiding coffee a gun, are you?
@Officer Hectic; what are your thoughts rn?
@clidd; so what are your thoughts on playing scum? do you really not like it or were you busy in your scumgames/some other reason?
you said you have 2 games; can you link the other one?
@Luca, what makes you so sure clidd is town if you've seen him do posts like this as scum?
but officer! Didn't you say you generally liked slaxx's takes?
not sure which part you're talking about. can you quote the a bit or something?
So you're saying you just changed your opinion between those 2 posts?
@compath, can you explain your luca and clidd read?
Can you give your thoughts on Ico?
Actually has anyone played with DDL before?
@DDL; according to you, what's the difference between ico vs clidd and luca vs slaxx? Also why is compath a TR when he pushed clidd in a similar way to Ico?
Also what made you change your mind wrt to your original SR on me? Iirc, you said you agreed with clidd's point about me which was literally my rqs answers were short; do you really think that makes me scummy?
@Ame, what was it you wanted me to clarify exactly? Why I asked you about the RQS questions?
What do you mean? Don’t you have to confirm your role before you play? ???
Is massclaim a good idea today?
I want to massclaim, what do you guys think?
actually i'm not sure, but just general thoughts anyone?
Why?
Ame, what do you mean by clues?
Honestly don't know anymore, @Luca, can we talk?
Why is everyone voting me?
Also is there a chance of scum no kill?
Ok, I'm a little tired atm so do you still need 1 and 2? If so, I'll answer tomorrow-ish. Also why those questions?
Also why is my claim not genuine?
I'm not really sure I understand why no lynch is good, can someone explain it to me?
Please can we not do anything hasty/weird?
I mean does scum say stuff like this?
Bro what happened to this????
How did you get to this?
@ame; I’m super sure I did answer the rqs thing. I’ll find my response later if you want. Also why is that so important to you?
Btw, what do you mean by "the logical part"?
Did you ignore my answers, Ame?/What did you think about them?
Clidd, what do you think of my mechanics thing last page?
Also Ame, why did you hard TR DDL and turn on him, then hard TR Hectic and turn on him too?
If you asked me a question and are going to scumread me no matter how I answer, then why did you ask it?
Why is this not opportunism?
Why couldn't you have put yourself out there to make this argument/throw people off?
Why did locktown Hectic here then?
Can you give an example? Also how strong was your read since you made a U turn the next day?
But again, I've talked about this, I claimed because I got a guilty, what else was I supposed to do?
What “new info” was presented then?
Why?
Also what does the parts in bold mean?
How did I put on a show, what does that mean, and why is that a point?
Why would you bus unless your partner was going down then?
Just why would I do that?

i know that the read applies to my past games and at least from this i think it applies to yours as well. almost all of the open non-specific questions you asked came as mafia. obviously a very huge sample size disclaimer is necessary here, but yeah.

i can think of a handful of games i was at the forefront of as town and just as many if not more that i was not.

also, do you mind providing a few links?

games i was at the forefront of as town:

micro blitz iii (inutile)
hungarian music 2 (shiki; at times at least)
mysterybox hate (shiki)
micro blitz (shiki; day two)

games that i was not:

mystery box gnine (hari)
mantis leadership (inutile)
reservoir dogs (shiki; attempted to emulate datisi but was forced to abandon it by page four)
micro blitz (shiki; day one)

[drusilla]

okay time for a leap of faith

[drusilla]

[drusilla]

i too am a werewolf and i am fairly certain lunacy is a town of werewolves.

was anyone in a pt with starbuck and/or lilith?

[drusilla]

Are werewolves town or mafia?

are you a werewolf?

[drusilla]

What’s your role?

werewolf. yours?

[drusilla]

Are you a power role like bodyguard or watcher like Starbuck/Lilith?

why would this be a good question for me to answer right now?

[drusilla]

I'm in a pt with someone else tho, so maybe we're neighbors? Idk

do you have a reason to assume you aren't masons?

[drusilla]

I thought i was a 2man scumteam who couldnt kill. It was bizarre

yeah i thought there were opposing two person scumteams.

How do claims work in a closed set up?

i would like to hear about this.

[drusilla]

That implies you view them as the scum team. Now this pinged me because its a closed set up, and this comes off like a scum slip. Because you seem to think we're looking for two scum. Why?

i would also like to hear about this.

[drusilla]

Why didn't you ask yours before essentially scumclaiming at day start?

i theorized this during the night before the lilith flip based on the starbuck flip and have been functioning as if we are masons.

How did you decide to claim?

i decided if another werewolf flipped i was going to claim. a mafia even-night watcher didn't make sense to me and the town is called lunacy - having to do with the moon, et cetera.

[drusilla]

Do you guys really think the game is as easy as midway + an individual pair?

i believe midwaybear to be a werewolf.

@shiki; I’m scum but I thought you were opposing scum too...let’s hug it out

*hug
i am sorry +)

VOTE: nahdia

[drusilla]

UNVOTE:

[drusilla]

That's not true. All I knew was that me and my partner were werewolves and at worst all I had to do was 'fake' a townread on them. Besides that all my thoughts and posts were genuine and I was trying to scumhunt. So yes, I was 'scum' but I was playing entirely like I was town. You can even ask my partner

/confirm

[drusilla]

VOTE: nahdia

[drusilla]

why are we trusting that tuxedo mask isn't nahdia's partner here? also i am going to unvote again but my vote remains in place in spirit. i wish not for the day to end quickly.

UNVOTE:

[drusilla]

Did Nahdia self hammer or no?

i think it was me/kanna/beeboy/you/nahdia so one off.

[drusilla]

what is the easiest way to make nahdia's text readable? quote and copy paste give me the same thing all on top of itself.

[drusilla]

It means that they don't want to say anything that gives away that they're playing off of my role when they don't know what it is. The example was if I were a day vigilante, they wouldn't want to see the shot coming

is this a reasonable thing to do? does anyone actually hide their roles from their partners?

[drusilla]

drusilla - clover ebi
nahdia - tuxedo mask
morning tweet - kanna
dunnstral - beeboy
skitter - raven branwen
midwaybear

yes?

[drusilla]

Who were star and lilith paired with, then. Couldnt be each other ...

mafia i am assuming who then claimed eachother. that's why i asked.

[drusilla]

Big oof and maybe lilith claimed to her partner too ...

i am pretty sure that is why they are dead. i believe we are looking for two mafia who claimed to be paired together and one mafia in the other pairs.

so i think nahdia/tuxedo mask.

and potentially clover ebi?

or one of dunnstral/beeboy. based on starbuck wagon.

[drusilla]

fyi we thought that starbuck was part of an opposing scum faction. I saw clover and beeboy move, so that it was l-1, and went for the quick hammer without a claim while pretending I thought it was E-1 (yeah). Also I was thinking it would be wifom and you wouldn't expect both beeboy and I to quickhammer like that on day 1

i kinda want to click submit to nahdia/tuxedo mask/clover ebi.

drusilla - clover ebi
nahdia - tuxedo mask
morning tweet - kanna
dunnstral - beeboy
skitter - raven branwen
midwaybear
lilith - ?
Starbuck - ?

Agree that Dunn/Beeboy and Raven/Skitts were playing paired

Drusilla and Clover is more ambiguous from what i remember. I can see why Clover is being suspected so heavily.

Midway is wolf

Who were star and lilith paired with, then. Couldnt be each other ...

mafia i am assuming who then claimed eachother. that's why i asked.

i am now an even-night watcher. i was a global backup and i inherited starbuck's role. i don't know if i could explain my play with regards to clover ebi much beyond i more or less ignored his existence and the existence of a handful of other players in order to make my ignoring clover stand out less. there isn't much communication in our pt. during the night i theorized about werewolves being the majority faction and us being masons and said i hoped to live through the night as i was excited upon coming to this conclusion. clover didn't respond to this until daystart.

I'm really suspicious of all the people that are so strongly trusting their partners.

i was before the pt claims because it made more sense to me but now i am fairly certain the mafia were paired with our fallen friends and thus i have reason to reexamine. if you are a werewolf, then clover ebi is also likely clear because a full pair is likely mafia. so who would that pair be from your perspective?

[drusilla]

Drusilla, why are you claiming though

because clover said something about me trying to bait the nightkill instead of kanna in the pt by claiming before he thought oh i just watch kanna, and then i thought, yeah i just watch kanna, but now he is softing in a way that made me felt like kill me roleblock kanna claim my role was a real possibility.

Are you asking who I think the full mafia pair is? Or who I think the impure mafia pairs are?

the full pair. you would be the impure pair from your perspective, yes?

[drusilla]

Why do we think there has to be a maf/maf pair? That's only for Nahdia/Tux right? Not everybody else

because i think lilith and starbuck were very likely to have been paired with mafia, and thus those mafia would have had to have claimed to be paired with eachother. it applies to everyone. if tuxedo mask is a werewolf then nahdia could not have been paired with lilith or starbuck and thus that pair must be somewhere else.

From Tuxes PoV it'd have to be an impure pair, wouldn't it?

no tuxedo mask would have to be the impure pair and thus there would have to be a pure pair elsewhere from his perspective.

[drusilla]

Drusilla, why are there only two mafia if Tux is scum, but three mafia if Tux is town?

there are three mafia either way. either the mafia are nahdia/tuxedo + one of the impure pair, or nahdia + the pure pair.

[drusilla]

there are three mafia either way. either the mafia are nahdia/tuxedo + one of the impure pair, or nahdia + the pure pair.

nahdia/tuxedo mask/clover ebi or nahdia/dunnstral/beeboy seem the most likely to me, with much more weight on the first.

[drusilla]

Clover said something in your pt that made you think me/beeboy are mafia, why aren't you guys coming forward with that reasoning?

no he didn't?

[drusilla]

This happened and then your read seemingly changed, they didn't say anything at all about us?

no clover ebi was upset by my claiming, is what that was referencing.

[drusilla]

See my issue is I think someone in your pair is setting up to pile drive our pair the following phase.
I just can't tell if it's you Clover or Drusilla, because it has to be one of you.

And unlike day 1 I am no longer content just sitting without good scum reads lol.

this doesn't make sense to me. because i currently feel very strongly that it is correct to eliminate tuxedo mask tomorrow. if tuxedo mask is a werewolf, however, then clover ebi is also very likely to be a werewolf and to me right now you are the most likely pair in that situation. you saying you are likely to be aligned does not sway me away from this because in that situation you are also aligned.

Drusilla retracted the claim.

i am an even-night watcher.

[drusilla]

Honestly in regard to Dunnstral flipping his play day 2 not being town indicative because "that's what scum want to do".

I feel like you just said my expectations out of town don't work because scum want to play like town. Idk I feel like my point still stands?

does my play seem the same to you today as it did yesterday?

[drusilla]

A lot of my play was dictated by fear of another scum team trying to shoot me.

as was mine, which to me is quite clear from my play, as is the difference between today and yesterday, but you and dunnstral have both simply gone with not reading my posts, so, eh.

[drusilla]

Note: Mafia tried to hammer themself, ending the day early

do you think it is most likely nahdia/tuxedo mask/clover ebi?

[drusilla]

Note: Mafia tried to hammer themself, ending the day early

do you think it is most likely nahdia/tuxedo mask/clover ebi?

Yes that is where I am currently leaning. I'm not certain on Tux being scum or mafia being informed of things like I saw in a recent game

excellent i am as well.

This must be true because I am town,

?

Based off of there being both a bodyguard and a watcher dead, I'd say it's very likely, along with the full alignment cop

Think: what happens if bodyguard and watcher target each other every night, and then what happens if they're both on the alignment cop

agree with this, thus why i claimed.

[drusilla]

Nahdia wasn't interacting to town, they were interacting with scum they needed to manipulate me off them and onto another "town" player.
Why defend Drusilla like that when I am playing like scum trying to get my vote off them? They literally weren't letting me adjust to avoid voting Drusilla.

Sorry if you think I am being unfair in your treatment over these last 3 pages, those Drusilla posts took me an incredibly long time to find because they don't reference Drusilla by name btw I also know you don't have the information I have as well and I am having trouble keeping that in mind.
Dunnstral is far more resolved you are scum then I am which is why I feel bad with this engagement, I just don't think your pair is TvT, and there is only so much I can do about that even if I do feel bad.

if this is directed towards me, it doesn't seem worthwhile for me to speculate as to what nahdia was doing as you could just as easily do the same, as evidenced by this post.

[drusilla]

Kanna has been my strongest tr out of the gate, only Skitter is stronger for obvious reasons. Thank God, she didn’t get voted out. I would have been devastated knowing what I know now.

i don't understand what is happening here. did you think you were town yesterday?

[drusilla]

No, yesterday I believed I had rolled scum with Skitter and we were trying to figure out in our PT, whether or not we were aligned with Star or if this was multiball.

then what is the relevance of your townread of kanna? who one would assume also thought she had rolled scum?

[drusilla]

then what is the relevance of your townread of kanna? who one would assume also thought she had rolled scum?

and you were mafia who thought you had made a good townread? none of this makes sense to me.

[drusilla]

Why would Kanna lie? I’ve seen her play scum and it’s 180 degrees different than here. Besides who in their right mind would fake a guilty on a slot she was tr yesterday?

i do not believe she is lying but she would have thought she was in a two-person team yesterday just like you supposedly did, right? so why would her play have been 180 degrees different?

[drusilla]

Like I said, I have meta on her. I’ve seen her town and scum game. I also believe her claim and I thought she was super obvtown from the getgo.

right but her claim is werewolf. so she thought she was a werewolf in a multiball game. which you are also claiming was your thought process. so do you think you were super obvtown from the getgo as well?

[drusilla]

I think if we logically assume that Tux is likely town because Hectic probably wouldn’t put two scum in the same PT, than I think this is a good place to start.

lilith and starbuck are unlikely to have been paired together, so the mafia were likely paired with lilith and starbuck and then claimed eachother.

I think Skitter and I are actually masons based on both the wording of my role pm and Hectic posting right in our PT that we’re werewolves but even if that weren’t the case, she’s been working with me the entire game. Tux mainly for mech reasons.

This seem familiar?

this seems particularly notable because the way skitter seemed not to have thought she and raven branwen were masons before i asked her if she had reason to assume they weren't.

@Drusilla, what are you reads outside of yesterday positioning Bee/Kanna/Skitter as the scumteam?

my reads from yesterday are meaningless as i thought i was part of a two-person scumteam. i have been very clear about my reads today:

there are three mafia either way. either the mafia are nahdia/tuxedo + one of the impure pair, or nahdia + the pure pair.

nahdia/tuxedo mask/clover ebi or nahdia/dunnstral/beeboy seem the most likely to me, with much more weight on the first.

See my issue is I think someone in your pair is setting up to pile drive our pair the following phase.
I just can't tell if it's you Clover or Drusilla, because it has to be one of you.

And unlike day 1 I am no longer content just sitting without good scum reads lol.

this doesn't make sense to me. because i currently feel very strongly that it is correct to eliminate tuxedo mask tomorrow. if tuxedo mask is a werewolf, however, then clover ebi is also very likely to be a werewolf and to me right now you are the most likely pair in that situation. you saying you are likely to be aligned does not sway me away from this because in that situation you are also aligned.

Note: Mafia tried to hammer themself, ending the day early

do you think it is most likely nahdia/tuxedo mask/clover ebi?

Yes that is where I am currently leaning. I'm not certain on Tux being scum or mafia being informed of things like I saw in a recent game

excellent i am as well.

it is frustrating to me that most people seem to be working from my general framework for solving the game but are still scumreading me.

nahdia is all but confirmed mafia. the logical elimination is then tuxedo mask.
if tuxedo mask is mafia, then we are likely looking for one mafia in the other pairs. i think this would most likely be clover ebi or you.
if tuxedo mask is a werewolf, then we are still looking for a claimed pair. before you began posting today i thought that claimed pair would most likely be beeboy/dunnstral. now i believe it is more likely to be you/skitter.

[drusilla]

to demonstrate visually:

morning tweet - kanna

midwaybear

drusilla

- clover ebi
dunnstral - beeboy
skitter - raven branwen

nahdia

- tuxedo mask

so nahdia>tuxedo mask
if tuxedo mask is mafia>clover ebi>raven branwen
if tuxedo mask is a werewolf>raven branwen
if raven branwen is mafia>skitter
if raven branwen is a werewolf>beeboy

[drusilla]

and we potentially get additional information along the way!

[drusilla]

Raven is a ww tho !

it is so hard for me to understand her mindset here. like she is stressing that her read of kanna yesterday has some relevance and that my reads yesterday meant something and none of it makes sense.

[drusilla]

@Drusilla; why is Midway clear? What’s not to say Midway is not scum who killed their partner and forced to claim solo?

i really think his beginning of the day interactions with me come from a werewolf.

if midwaybear was paired with lilith/starbuck who was the other of lilith/starbuck paired with?

if tuxedo mask is mafia>clover ebi>raven branwen

this is the only world in which midwaybear possibly makes sense to me as mafia and there is room to add him if i am calculating correctly.

[drusilla]

to demonstrate visually:

morning tweet - kanna

midwaybear

drusilla

- clover ebi
dunnstral - beeboy
skitter - raven branwen

nahdia

- tuxedo mask

so nahdia>tuxedo mask
if tuxedo mask is mafia>clover ebi>raven branwen
if tuxedo mask is a werewolf>raven branwen
if raven branwen is mafia>skitter
if raven branwen is a werewolf>beeboy

[drusilla]

nahdia's post from when they self-voted until they were eliminated sourced:

Spoiler:

1533 - alice's adventure's in wonderland chapter vi

1547 - william gibson, neuromancer

1557 - william gibson, neuromancer

1577 - non-consecutive sections of neuromancer

1605 - oxford dictionary definition of skitter

1613 - lewis carroll, jabberwocky

1627 - modified version of a meme bugspray recently posted in a game they were in with me, skitter, dunnstral and nahdia.

1641 - unsure, found two results for 'what if we're in a box':

https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments ... _in_a_box/

https://archiveofourown.org/works/591183

no repetition in either.

1653 - epic of gilgamesh

1660 - epic of gilgamesh

1674 - bill watterson, calvin & hobbes

1778 - no results

1805 - more likely due to game situation than sourced

1813 - oxford dictionary definition of opposing

the '7/4/2' is likely a reference to the setup possibly being 7 werewolves 4 mafia/? 2 mafia/?

1816 - oxford dictionary definition of lunacy

'are we enemies?' likely related to the 7/4/2

1818 - jurrassic world

'what does "oppose" mean, really?' likely meant to draw our attention to their last two posts

1819 - drawing attention to bottom of the last few posts again

(it is worth noting that the beginning of the very next post, 1820, is skitter saying 'nahdia, although you are caught scum, i am enjoying the posts you are currently making')

1826 - oxford dicitionary definition of skeptical

'this game drove me to drink.' likely to continue to draw attention to the bottom of these posts.

1831 - fallout: new vegas

'9 & 2 | 2' seems to be saying 9 werewolves, 2 mafia, 2 town.

1844 - first result when searching 'raven gif'

1857 - not sourced, potentially frustrated with setup

1868 - wikipedia entry for the enemy of my enemy is my friend

1872 - oxford dictionary definition of why

1943 - execution of nathan hale, 1776

got weird results for 'who is pulling the strings?' that could be potentially related to the main text here but it seems more likely to be a continuation of the previous bottom of posts line of thought, in which case the answer would be hectic, i assume.

1951 - mafiawiki entry for win condition

1954 - continuation of three faction speculation

1955 - see above

from this it seems unlikely that nahdia's original intention was to communicate to us the setup but rather something they added later when they started making these posts again as you can see from the differences between the subsets {nahdia posts 1533-1674} and {nahdia posts 1813-1955}. i think the intention was to try to make us doubt our setup assumptions, likely because they are correct. skitter also drawing attention to nahdia's attempts to 'communicate with someone' through these posts is suspicious as i am pretty sure she'd have easily been able to determine what was likely being communicated if she wanted to so instead it feels like she was potentially a part of the ploy. oddly enough, the two players also referenced directly in these posts are skitter and raven branwen, so if nahdia's third alignment speculation is to be believed, it seems to point toward them as well.

[drusilla]

anyway, i have a result!

[drusilla]

pedit: o?

i know who visited kanna last night.

[drusilla]

why do you think wolves would kill kanna over you knowing that there's an even-night watcher?

because if it was a pair they would be trapped by killing me, which is what i was not telling clover ebi in the night in case he was mafia.

[drusilla]

?

it confirms the world as chara mafia if they kill me because a pair would be trapped, because they cannot push me and clover ebi if i am dead, leaving only skitter/raven and beeboy/dunnstral.

Was it you or Clover Ebi?

it was chara.

[drusilla]

i'm confused. what do you mean by a pair being trapped? why does you dying clear clover?
i don't follow

so if chara was a werewolf, we were still looking for a pair because of yesterday. thus a pair cannot kill me, because they would be dead to poe. so they kill kanna, because chara is caught either way.

[drusilla]

when you say 'pair' you mean 'one member of a non-chara pair, who would then implicate both themselves and their partner'?

but if we assume 3 scum adn we know that chara is one that logic doesn't really hold because they'd be implicating their town/ww partner ... which for them is a good thing

no i mean yesterday we had two possible worlds.

chara is a werewolf - we are looking for a different claimed pair.
chara is mafia - we are looking for one mafia in the other pairs or midwaybear.

so killing me is chara caught anyway, not that he wasn't always the elimination to me today to figure out which world we were in, but yeah.

[drusilla]

but killing you we wouldn't have the guilty on chara anyways so it's not like we'd know which universe we're in by virtue of you dying?
like for scum this whole thing could have just been avoided by making sure your result would not get out

no because a pair would be dead to poe if they kill me. so chara is caught regardless.

[drusilla]

unless you think that chara would think they would be able to convince everyone that you would leave yourself dead to poe for wifom reasons. but that seems unreasonable to me.

[drusilla]

your death doesn't exonorate clover and we wouldn't know which pair it was either. like yes there has to be scum in a pair/midway but we thought that yesterday anyways

i think clover is the most likely mafia. my death if chara was a werewolf would exonerate clover and midwaybear. thus killing me means chara is mafia, just the same as leaving me alive to red check him did.

[drusilla]

Drusilla let's play a game, I am on the scum team.
I shoot you, wake up we have no guilty.
I then vote Clover Ebi saying they shot you.

How does town use this info to lynch me.

the scum team would then be you and chara. chara gets eliminated today. clover probably gets eliminated the next day as i too thought he was the most likely partner. beyond that there's too many future variables to determine how likely it is you'd be caught. you are further down my poe than the number of eliminations we have.

ok. eli5: your death exonorates clover because ...
if clover is scum and you dying exonortates him he doesn't kill you because ....

i'm not understanding these two things

my death would only exonerate clover ebi if chara was a werewolf. i don't really know how to say that any more clearly. if clover is scum with chara it doesn't exonerate him.

[drusilla]

then there's some sort of fundemental communication block here
we're kinda assuming the possibility of mixed pairs

so i don't get why 'town!dru' -> 'town!clover'.

like it's not an inherently obvious conclusion to me

yes there are mixed pairs. lilith and starbuck are unlikely to have been originally paired. thus it is very likely one of the claimed pairs was originally paired with lilith/starbuck. so if chara was a werewolf, we'd still be looking for a full pair. so killing me confirms midwaybear because he's solo and clover ebi, because i'd be dead. but since chara is mafia, this doesn't apply.

[drusilla]

dru, we're living in the universe where form your pov chara is mafia tho. like from your pov there isn't a possibility they're scum, they just are

so given that, killing you and suppressing the result doesn't give town any new information wrt how scum are distributed in the pairs
like i don't get why you're talking about the outcome if chara was a werewolf when from your pov they're not so that universe is functionally irrelevant

you asked me why mafia would have not killed me, which i believe was because chara was caught either way and they decided they'd rather i was alive than kanna. i'm not living in that world i'm simply trying to answer your question.

[drusilla]

dru i still don't get it, sorry :/

i become very frustrated with myself in these situations because it makes perfect sense in my head but it is so hard to communicate. i know chara is mafia (or at least that they were the only person who visited kanna that i got a result on), and to me that means the third mafia is most likely clover ebi or raven, with you, beeboy, midwaybear, and dunnstral being the rest of the possibilities, in order of likelihood. the rest is speculation as to why mafia would have not killed me, which makes sense to me and i could continue to try to explain if you'd like, but it is not the information i'm working from going forward.

dru are you trying to say that if you die and flip town you'll be proven to be paired with clover, and there therefore he couldn't be paired with lilith/starbuck, so it would implicate chara for lying because someone has to be paired with lilith/starbuck and it's unclaimed ?

i would flip werewolf, and this doesn't apply to tonight but rather last night, but chara would be implicated because any of the other possible pairs would be dead to poe. give me a few minutes and i'll try to walk through the whole thing again.

[drusilla]

sorry for frustrating you, not trying to :/

it's not you and this isn't exactly something that is new to me in mafia or in life in general. words are not easy.

so here are the claimed pairs from day two:

drusilla - clover ebi
nahdia - tuxedo mask(chara)
morning tweet - kanna
dunnstral - beeboy
skitter - raven branwen
midwaybear

it is unlikely that lilith and starbuck were paired together so it is likely that an entire pair is mafia who were paired with lilith/starbuck and claimed eachother.

if chara was a werewolf, that would mean that nahdia/chara could not be that pair and thus it would have to be either {drusilla, clover ebi} or {morning tweet, kanna} or {dunnstral, beeboy} or {skitter, raven branwen}.

kanna was confirmed already outside of dunnstral's tinfoil thought that beeboy shared that seemed extremely unlikely to me, leaving only {drusilla, clover ebi}, {dunnstral, beeboy} or {skitter, raven branwen}.

if mafia killed me, that leaves only {dunnstral, beeboy} or {skitter, raven branwen}. one of the players would be eliminated, if mafia, the person they were paired with, if werewolf someone from the other grouping.

so if chara was a werewolf, mafia would be trapped by killing me, thus chara is almost certainly mafia if i die.

if i don't die, i get a result, which confirms chara as mafia. which is the same thing but leaves me in the game instead of kanna, and my ability is even-night and i'm less approved of amongst everyone.

[drusilla]

are we sure that lilith/star weren't paired with each other? in retrospect i'm thinking it's strange that the scum partners didn't just claim that they have a dead partner.

nahdia/tuxedo mask knew about the werewolf pt wordings. so i'm pretty sure it is mostly confirmed.

[drusilla]

yeah i'm saying like maybe if nahdia was with lilith and tux with star (or vice versa) i'm wondering why they didn't just say that, and why they fabricated a pairing anyways

i think this was probably a mistake they made in retrospect, but speculating as to why seems difficult.

[drusilla]

I’ll doc you.

If both Kanna and MWB are both alive tomorrow, then MWB is probably town for this.

@MWB, why did you say you would doc Kanna publically? Why not just do it privately? This way you put a target on your back if you’re town, and then scum will probably just find a different target.

Had you not said anything until tomorrow, we might have had a no kill tonight.

did you actually believe that midwaybear was a doctor?

[drusilla]

hello everyone! i haven't read very much, and probably won't without a sufficiently interesting reason. let me know if i should.

how many factions do you believe there to be in the game?

[drusilla]

hello everyone! i haven't read very much, and probably won't without a sufficiently interesting reason. let me know if i should.

also what is your alignment?

[drusilla]

i'm a werewolf.
i also have access to a hood with Nahdia and Tuxedo.

why did you visit kanna last night?

[drusilla]

VOTE: chara

[drusilla]

drusilla, why wait until then to vote?

wanted to ask those questions first.

[drusilla]

Drusilla if you are fake claiming on behalf of Clover, I want you to know I am not reevaluating you if this flips town. That is all.

^

okay thankyou for letting me know.

i don't know if i have the breathing room to town this slot up. but i'd like to figure out if drusilla's scum or town before i go, at least. but i don't think it's worth it for scum to fake a guilty on my slot.

that's my result and it makes sense to me from a setup perspective. if you want to argue that there's someway the mafia have of messing with results, like... maybe? but i'm a werewolf. shrug.

[drusilla]

i kinda think mt is town tho :/

i am pretty confident that morning is a werewolf. seems unlikely she'd kill lilith over kanna unless you want to say that lilith died guarding kanna? which also seems unlikely.

if drus was aware of that, then yes, i don't like her being an auto lynch after me.

i heavily advocated for this, so yes i was aware of it. for you not to be mafia here it becomes 'don't trust the results everything is meaningless' and i don't know what to do with that preflip. like it weighs nothing to me even though i am aware of its implications. do i think it is strange that both beeboy and skitter indicated that they'd not reevaluate me if you flipped werewolf? sure, maybe, i guess, but the odds on that seem so low.

Am I allowed to role fish in the open or are we not at that stage yet?
Asking for a friend.

please do. i think all the information on the table is good at this point.

[drusilla]

i guess thinking about it i can see her doing it a bit more as town

i'm not. the claim is truthful. it is either messed with somehow or chara is mafia.

[drusilla]

in the remote universe that chara turns up town i'm answering what i would think after that, since it asked

i am saying that in that remote universe i am not faking the claim but rather that the mafia have some way of messing with results.

[drusilla]

like me/raven the first thing we did was ask each other what our roles are, i'm sure star/lilith did that too probably

yeah i did as well and that's why i kinda thought roles were probably paired with mafia minus kanna because she lived through night one.

[drusilla]

There was a really good theory that I looked into after drusilla brought it up and I was going to vote for Skitter coming into this day phase until I saw the watch result

the lilith-skitter raven-starbuck thing?

[drusilla]

I mean we can flesh out details tomorrow I guess.

I just remember yesterday we concluded that the Bodyguard+Watcher couldn't be a town pair together meaning 1 pair was lying and was scum/scum. I thought no one disagreed with this?
So we needed 1 scum/scum pair and we didn't have any candidates for that.

Idk they weren't outed but its not great for them either.

i feel invisible to you mostly. like 'ah yes i thought drusilla was right about the game solve and so did everyone else but she is probably scum' seems unreasonable to me but alas.

[drusilla]

Scum is not skitter!
And idk what you mean by the lilith/skitter raven/starbuck thing

i had time during the night so i was thinking about the most likely worlds for both if chara was a werewolf and if chara was mafia following my post from end of day yesterday. if chara was a werewolf it seemed most likely that you and raven branwen were the pair based on raven branwen's first few posts of the game and the starbuck wagon as well as your post 1330. like it felt like the original pairings were possibly you-lilith and raven-starbuck, but i was very likely wrong about this, due to information i have since received.

[drusilla]

I expected to be MT or MWB due to the doc claim.

it is very hard for me to believe that you thought it was likely midwaybear was a doctor.

[drusilla]

So up to Skitter and Dru I guess if they are done talking.

i would like a bit to write out what i think should be the course of action. the setup speculation and the seeming power issues can possibly be accounted for in planning. like the nahdia worlds shouldn't be taken at face value obviously but switching the order of people i want to eliminate to account for like 9/4 or 9/2/2 seems doable. still think it's most likely 10/3.

[drusilla]

Both me and Skitter believed that Nahdia was sending cryptic messages to someone other than Tux, make of that what you will.

researched this during the night:

nahdia's post from when they self-voted until they were eliminated sourced:

Spoiler:

1533 - alice's adventure's in wonderland chapter vi

1547 - william gibson, neuromancer

1557 - william gibson, neuromancer

1577 - non-consecutive sections of neuromancer

1605 - oxford dictionary definition of skitter

1613 - lewis carroll, jabberwocky

1627 - modified version of a meme bugspray recently posted in a game they were in with me, skitter, dunnstral and nahdia.

1641 - unsure, found two results for 'what if we're in a box':

https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments ... _in_a_box/

https://archiveofourown.org/works/591183

no repetition in either.

1653 - epic of gilgamesh

1660 - epic of gilgamesh

1674 - bill watterson, calvin & hobbes

1778 - no results

1805 - more likely due to game situation than sourced

1813 - oxford dictionary definition of opposing

the '7/4/2' is likely a reference to the setup possibly being 7 werewolves 4 mafia/? 2 mafia/?

1816 - oxford dictionary definition of lunacy

'are we enemies?' likely related to the 7/4/2

1818 - jurrassic world

'what does "oppose" mean, really?' likely meant to draw our attention to their last two posts

1819 - drawing attention to bottom of the last few posts again

(it is worth noting that the beginning of the very next post, 1820, is skitter saying 'nahdia, although you are caught scum, i am enjoying the posts you are currently making')

1826 - oxford dicitionary definition of skeptical

'this game drove me to drink.' likely to continue to draw attention to the bottom of these posts.

1831 - fallout: new vegas

'9 & 2 | 2' seems to be saying 9 werewolves, 2 mafia, 2 town.

1844 - first result when searching 'raven gif'

1857 - not sourced, potentially frustrated with setup

1868 - wikipedia entry for the enemy of my enemy is my friend

1872 - oxford dictionary definition of why

1943 - execution of nathan hale, 1776

got weird results for 'who is pulling the strings?' that could be potentially related to the main text here but it seems more likely to be a continuation of the previous bottom of posts line of thought, in which case the answer would be hectic, i assume.

1951 - mafiawiki entry for win condition

1954 - continuation of three faction speculation

1955 - see above

from this it seems unlikely that nahdia's original intention was to communicate to us the setup but rather something they added later when they started making these posts again as you can see from the differences between the subsets {nahdia posts 1533-1674} and {nahdia posts 1813-1955}. i think the intention was to try to make us doubt our setup assumptions, likely because they are correct. skitter also drawing attention to nahdia's attempts to 'communicate with someone' through these posts is suspicious as i am pretty sure she'd have easily been able to determine what was likely being communicated if she wanted to so instead it feels like she was potentially a part of the ploy. oddly enough, the two players also referenced directly in these posts are skitter and raven branwen, so if nahdia's third alignment speculation is to be believed, it seems to point toward them as well.

if nahdia actually believed there was a third alignment (unlikely, more likely a plot/distraction) it seems they believed it was you and skitter or at least wanted us to think it was you and skitter.

[drusilla]

why wouldn't nahdia just straight-up say that then? Why be so cryptic about it?

probably because nahdia was mafia.

[drusilla]

now with fixed post links:

Both me and Skitter believed that Nahdia was sending cryptic messages to someone other than Tux, make of that what you will.

researched this during the night:

nahdia's post from when they self-voted until they were eliminated sourced:

Spoiler:

1533 - alice's adventure's in wonderland chapter vi

1547 - william gibson, neuromancer

1557 - william gibson, neuromancer

1577 - non-consecutive sections of neuromancer

1605 - oxford dictionary definition of skitter

1613 - lewis carroll, jabberwocky

1627 - modified version of a meme bugspray recently posted in a game they were in with me, skitter, dunnstral and nahdia.

1641 - unsure, found two results for 'what if we're in a box':

https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments ... _in_a_box/

https://archiveofourown.org/works/591183

no repetition in either.

1653 - epic of gilgamesh

1660 - epic of gilgamesh

1674 - bill watterson, calvin & hobbes

1778 - no results

1805 - more likely due to game situation than sourced

1813 - oxford dictionary definition of opposing

the '7/4/2' is likely a reference to the setup possibly being 7 werewolves 4 mafia/? 2 mafia/?

1816 - oxford dictionary definition of lunacy

'are we enemies?' likely related to the 7/4/2

1818 - jurrassic world

'what does "oppose" mean, really?' likely meant to draw our attention to their last two posts

1819 - drawing attention to bottom of the last few posts again

(it is worth noting that the beginning of the very next post, 1820, is skitter saying 'nahdia, although you are caught scum, i am enjoying the posts you are currently making')

1826 - oxford dicitionary definition of skeptical

'this game drove me to drink.' likely to continue to draw attention to the bottom of these posts.

1831 - fallout: new vegas

'9 & 2 | 2' seems to be saying 9 werewolves, 2 mafia, 2 town.

1844 - first result when searching 'raven gif'

1857 - not sourced, potentially frustrated with setup

1868 - wikipedia entry for the enemy of my enemy is my friend

1872 - oxford dictionary definition of why

1943 - execution of nathan hale, 1776

got weird results for 'who is pulling the strings?' that could be potentially related to the main text here but it seems more likely to be a continuation of the previous bottom of posts line of thought, in which case the answer would be hectic, i assume.

1951 - mafiawiki entry for win condition

1954 - continuation of three faction speculation

1955 - see above

from this it seems unlikely that nahdia's original intention was to communicate to us the setup but rather something they added later when they started making these posts again as you can see from the differences between the subsets {nahdia posts 1533-1674} and {nahdia posts 1813-1955}. i think the intention was to try to make us doubt our setup assumptions, likely because they are correct. skitter also drawing attention to nahdia's attempts to 'communicate with someone' through these posts is suspicious as i am pretty sure she'd have easily been able to determine what was likely being communicated if she wanted to so instead it feels like she was potentially a part of the ploy. oddly enough, the two players also referenced directly in these posts are skitter and raven branwen, so if nahdia's third alignment speculation is to be believed, it seems to point toward them as well.

if nahdia actually believed there was a third alignment (unlikely, more likely a plot/distraction) it seems they believed it was you and skitter or at least wanted us to think it was you and skitter.

[drusilla]

Dunnstral/MT.

wait why dunnstral? both you and dunnstral would win as the third mafia following my current train of thought.

[drusilla]

Dunnstral

also now that i'm thinking about it could you explain this:

My partner asked me at the very start of the game if I 'wanted to claim my role'

Their justification today is that they have seen complicated roles like day vig and didn't want to play like they knew it was coming

from your perspective?

[drusilla]

I've seen people refrain from posting role pms because it keeps your scum bros "blind" on your role. So they don't just out you for being a day vig or something.

i guess i have just never seen anyone not share their role with their partner nor does it seem like a reasonable thing to do to me.

[drusilla]

If they flip town it's you or druisilla. The latter being much more likely due to power role

If they flip mafia it's not me, beeboy, mt, probably not skitter, we can work from there, anyone else?

so what you're saying is if chara is a werewolf it is me or clover ebi and if chara is mafia it is me or clover ebi or raven branwen or midwaybear?

[drusilla]

I have a tinfoil theory that the night deadline changing was part of a mafia role and they learned who Kanna was targetting

i don't think this is likely. the deadline was originally set at 24 hours instead of 48 as the rules state, which i looked into after it changed because i waited until the first deadline to share my thoughts with clover ebi as i was worried he was mafia and then the deadline changed.

[drusilla]

Guys reading this flavor I think the werewolf flips so far might be on town...

? haven't we been assuming we are a town of werewolves for days now?

[drusilla]

so we're probably not looking for mafia but rather a third alignment which seems most likely skitter/raven branwen to me, based on flavour/no nightkill et cetera.

[drusilla]

What the...

could we get a report as to why you suspected dunnstral and your non-vt status now?

[drusilla]

which seems most likely skitter/raven branwen to me,

well it did before beeboy's interpretation of the flavour at daystart, at least.

[drusilla]

I wonder what this means.

good catch. hm.

[drusilla]

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to throw someone down the well.

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to shove someone off the cliff.

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to set someone alight.

these are the ones from previous days which imply something different.

[drusilla]

Meh tbh, if we go back to odds I'll do it.

i don't understand what odds have to do with anything if there aren't going to be nightkills. do you have reason to believe my assumptions are incorrect?

[drusilla]

Because the kill was blocked so hiding information from scum until it is blocked again is the best line of play.
Since 1 blocked kill = no reward
2 = +lynch

the flavour seems to heavily imply that the kill was not blocked and that we are looking for non-mafia, paired with what nahdia was saying earlier. did you block the kill?

[drusilla]

VOTE: beeboy

[drusilla]

i don't believe that there was a nightkill to block. i think there were only two mafia and the setup was likely 9/2/2.

[drusilla]

Clover why do you want me to town read this?

i am a werewolf and you are openly saying you don't want to help solve the game.

[drusilla]

UNVOTE:

[drusilla]

i voted out of frustration but i don't understand your logic here at all.

[drusilla]

yes so the mafia made all of the kills so far and and now they are eliminated and there is no kill. is my assumption, based on the opening flavour of today and what nahdia was saying and it makes sense for the gamestate. if you are saying you have no knowledge of how the kill was blocked then it is likely that there was no kill to be blocked, as i believe only you or dunnstral could have blocked it unless another werewolf lied about their role.

[drusilla]

Where does this 2 faction theory come from?

i assume you mean 3 faction theory, in which case it originally comes from being a werewolf but then i've had various other reasons to think it is likely, nahdia, the flavour, the lack of nightkill.

[drusilla]

Why does Chara talk about self hammering if their is another team?

probably to fall on their own sword.

i am going to work under this assumption unless i see a strong reason not to, such as someone claiming to have blocked a kill. i feel it is very likely, and i think others should as well. your reason for not thinking so is what? that chara wanted to hammer themself? they didn't even though. chara said they wanted to hammer after they were hammered.

[drusilla]

if noone blocked a kill then how is there still mafia? as we know the mafia had a nightkill as we know chara made the kill last night.

[drusilla]

chara made the kill last night.

*the night before last.

[drusilla]

*it with regards to chara, i am sorry.

[drusilla]

Chara wanted to self that is an act to cut off info that is anti wincon.

chara said that after it was eliminated. thus, not anti-wincon.

[drusilla]

Why lie about that if you already lost?

i believe chara was saying i would rather have fallen on my own sword. i don't understand how that weighs anything compared to the rest of the evidence.

[drusilla]

A faction that can't kill is just do incredibly bizarre to me I don't want to look for it

i am a werewolf with no nightkill in a majority werewolf game. i don't understand how a third faction without a nightkill is too bizarre. it currently seems by far the most likely situation to me.

[drusilla]

We are both 100% werewolves. Yeah, this theory makes total sense. We have a stacked wws: watcher, bg, alignment cop but yeah last scum have no NA.

it makes sense because i think there were four non-werewolf aligned players in a thirteen player game, thus the werewolves would be stacked to compensate.

I think it means gladiate. It means that one player selects another and players can only vote for those players.

it does not; this was already clarified.

[drusilla]

If that was true the game would already be over. I think scum for whatever reason chose to no kill, because I don’t believe for one second, last scum is any kind of non-pr. Not with a ww/town that is stacked.

no there would be two non-mafia non-werewolves left that are preventing the werewolves from winning. the game would not be over.

[drusilla]

What are you basing this on? How do you know mafia are eliminated? Do you know something I don’t? Really odd post to make solely based off of a no kill.

i've answered this already:

i assume you mean 3 faction theory, in which case it originally comes from being a werewolf but then i've had various other reasons to think it is likely, nahdia, the flavour, the lack of nightkill.

if noone blocked a kill then how is there still mafia? as we know the mafia had a nightkill as we know chara made the kill last night.

i do not

know

mafia are eliminated, i am making an educated guess based on the information at hand. it seems very likely to me.

[drusilla]

The fire burns a deep red colour, the knight nods and says that the ritual is now complete.

[drusilla]

You have a ww/town that is stacked. Common sense dictates that scum would likely have some balancing pr to compensate.

an additional non-werewolf makes the game far harder for the werewolves to win, coupled with the fact that a werewolf is very likely to get eliminated day one due to the werewolves not knowing they are the majority.

[drusilla]

we also do not know whether or not the mafia had any additional factional abilities or if the remaining party has any prs.

[drusilla]

Scum could have just no killed for the wifom?

do not see how that possibly seems more likely to you than what i'm saying.

[drusilla]

Considering town=ww in this setup, maybe last scum could be a traitor and traitors generally don’t get to participate in the factional kill. Could that explain it?

traitors generally are eliminated when their teammates are eliminated. is there a reason you are searching for alternate explanations to what i've proposed while not giving reason you think my view of the setup is unlikely?

[drusilla]

In either case, would you agree that the best way to solve this game could be a mass claim?

i've already attempted to have the people who have not already claimed claim. so yes, i would agree and have advocated for this.

[drusilla]

Yeah exactly. In what game ever do you have a stacked town and only non-prs for scum?

in a game where there are 4 non-werewolf aligned players instead of 3, which was also included in morning tweet's post.

[drusilla]

But what I don’t believe is that last scum would be non-prs and if you’re posiiting a 3p, then I would argue that 3p isn’t always scum, so if there’s 3Ps then they would have to be scum 3Ps and why have non-pr 3Ps? My point is whatever is the last scum, that were extremely unlikely to be vanilla.

how does your win condition interact with third parties?

[drusilla]

If we are looking at a 9v2v2, I'd expect one of the full pairs to be the.. whatever the last scum party is.

this seems most likely to me as well.

But the mafiosos were both goons so, you’re saying that there’s literally no scum prs and last scum can’t even kill?

I just find that really hard to believe, especially when we haven’t yet done a mass claim and don’t even know this for sure.

Last scum could still very well be a mafia pr. Chara’s not putting up more of a fight points to that being the most likely because, if last scum isn’t/aren’t mafia, then Chara loses, so I think last scum is most likely mafioso.

no i am saying that there are probably two non-werewolf aligned players alive. do you think someone is going to claim mafia in the mass claim? and do you think a mafia pr would accurately claim? this makes little sense.

[drusilla]

My role pm says we win when all against the wws are gone or nothing can stop this.

so a third party would then be 'against' the werewolves, yes?

[drusilla]

So last scum is very likely informed then. I think you might have nailed it.

we know the eliminated mafia were informed (likely through being paired with werewolves) as they knew about the werewolf pts.

[drusilla]

We thought you were our partner night 1

wait why did you think raven branwen was your and beeboy's werewolf partner night one?

[drusilla]

Looking back Beeboy thought Raven and Starbuck were together, then when Starbuck flipped wolf we thought Raven may have been with us as well

this seems reasonable enough as i too thought it seemed like raven/starbuck may have been originally paired together:

Scum is not skitter!
And idk what you mean by the lilith/skitter raven/starbuck thing

i had time during the night so i was thinking about the most likely worlds for both if chara was a werewolf and if chara was mafia following my post from end of day yesterday. if chara was a werewolf it seemed most likely that you and raven branwen were the pair based on raven branwen's first few posts of the game and the starbuck wagon as well as your post 1330. like it felt like the original pairings were possibly you-lilith and raven-starbuck, but i was very likely wrong about this, due to information i have since received.

[drusilla]

The pr we have doesn't make sense as 3rd mafia's power

The pr we have doesn't make sense as 3rd mafia's power

does either make sense as a non-mafia no-nightkill third party power?

[drusilla]

What is the win condition of this third party? I'd argue "probably not"

i assume the win condition would be something similar to get rid of everyone who is not you, but i am not sure. the plague thing still weighs on my mind.

[drusilla]

this is becoming a disaster and i don't know what else to do but say clover ebi is not the global backup turned even-night watcher and i don't know why he went forward with a plan i said maybe to yesterday.

[drusilla]

i don't think it means he is not werewolf aligned necessarily as his reasoning has been consistent across the days that he thinks he is going to get eliminated otherwise, and that we should solve outside of him, but i was doing that already, so, idk.

[drusilla]

I still don't get why you and Drusilla outed the 2nd guilty instantly.
I thought we spoke about how MT outing the guilty that fast was bad for the town?

i disagree with this logic 100%. it is anti-town for town to be solving based off of incomplete information if i am going to then out it later. you think it is noteworthy that chara was outed on day two instead of by my guilty, but that was also by me.

[drusilla]

like there is no reason for us to live in possible worlds when i know one of the worlds to be correct, and would likely everyone to spend their time solving that.

[drusilla]

If we consider that the last anti-town player(s) aren't mafia, but are instead a different faction, how does our view on the game change?

Don't say it's me and beeboy

this is what i've been doing most of the day and i think it is most likely raven branwen/skitter if a full pair and skitter/beeboy if it is split between pairs.

[drusilla]

I don't know why you think that if you weren't in this game Chara was never getting killed.

i don't necessarily but i was the one who first presented the logic that the mafia were likely paired on day two.

[drusilla]

I'll find the timeline order on this but.

here you go:

why are we trusting that tuxedo mask isn't nahdia's partner here? also i am going to unvote again but my vote remains in place in spirit. i wish not for the day to end quickly.

Who were star and lilith paired with, then. Couldnt be each other ...

mafia i am assuming who then claimed eachother. that's why i asked.

Big oof and maybe lilith claimed to her partner too ...

i am pretty sure that is why they are dead. i believe we are looking for two mafia who claimed to be paired together and one mafia in the other pairs.

so i think nahdia/tuxedo mask.

and potentially clover ebi?

or one of dunnstral/beeboy. based on starbuck wagon.

[drusilla]

I know you did in the PT and I know I posted in thread as if it was my idea if you didn't :^)

Ah... I get it.
Tuxedo is scum and they were paired with the 2 dead players not each other.

you said this after i posted 1618.

[drusilla]

Do you guys think this flavor is important?

Like, maybe wolves are being "cured" but they're turning back into mafia in a sort of cult twist

i think the flavour is important in that the top part seems to heavily imply that we eliminated the mafia but are still looking for someone.

[drusilla]

The fire burns a deep red colour, the knight nods and says that the ritual is now complete. Spoiler: [/spoiler] The mayor says that the curse of lunacy has yet to be completely removed, and that it is a tragedy for the townspeople to remain as werewolves for their whole lives. He thinks he's figured out a way to reverse the curse of lunacy, but he'll need a few brave volunteers to help him test it out. He claims that he can even do something about their amnesia, returning the werewolves back into the people they used to be..͘

Do you guys think this flavor is important?

though the 'brave volunteers' part could be relevant and we could all be werewolves that need to eliminate someone specific. this seems less likely than my other line of thought though.

[drusilla]

I don't think scum have this much power stacked against them.
And also don't have a partner they can manipulate easily?

That is the strongest tool scum have in this setup and not giving it to them with all these PRs would scuk. If I had a reason to believe the power was more balanced then I'd humor him but I don't we have to basic flips.


If this game has an arsonist that would be kinda funny on review with all the fire flavor.

that is why i think 4 non-werewolves is likely.

and i have also theorized that there might be an infection type role, which would function similar to an arsonist due to the plague references, which still haven't otherwise been a part of the game.

[drusilla]

drusilla looks up at the sky.

[drusilla]

are we sure that nobody prevented the nk?

the only unclaimed are beeboy and dunnstral and beeboy said he did not know how the kill would have been blocked, thus unlikely to have been them thus unlikely for there to have been a nightkill to prevent.

this is what i've been doing most of the day and i think it is most likely raven branwen/skitter if a full pair and skitter/beeboy if it is split between pairs.

hi,talk to me about this

hi, importantly i think it is very strange that even today raven branwen continues to take information from day one, when many of us thought we were part of two person scumteams, at face value. this could possibly be explained by raven branwen's view of her role not changing in the way mine did. and nahdia seemed to be indicating that they thought it was likely you/raven branwen:

now with fixed post links:

Both me and Skitter believed that Nahdia was sending cryptic messages to someone other than Tux, make of that what you will.

researched this during the night:

nahdia's post from when they self-voted until they were eliminated sourced:

Spoiler:

1533 - alice's adventure's in wonderland chapter vi

1547 - william gibson, neuromancer

1557 - william gibson, neuromancer

1577 - non-consecutive sections of neuromancer

1605 - oxford dictionary definition of skitter

1613 - lewis carroll, jabberwocky

1627 - modified version of a meme bugspray recently posted in a game they were in with me, skitter, dunnstral and nahdia.

1641 - unsure, found two results for 'what if we're in a box':

https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments ... _in_a_box/

https://archiveofourown.org/works/591183

no repetition in either.

1653 - epic of gilgamesh

1660 - epic of gilgamesh

1674 - bill watterson, calvin & hobbes

1778 - no results

1805 - more likely due to game situation than sourced

1813 - oxford dictionary definition of opposing

the '7/4/2' is likely a reference to the setup possibly being 7 werewolves 4 mafia/? 2 mafia/?

1816 - oxford dictionary definition of lunacy

'are we enemies?' likely related to the 7/4/2

1818 - jurrassic world

'what does "oppose" mean, really?' likely meant to draw our attention to their last two posts

1819 - drawing attention to bottom of the last few posts again

(it is worth noting that the beginning of the very next post, 1820, is skitter saying 'nahdia, although you are caught scum, i am enjoying the posts you are currently making')

1826 - oxford dicitionary definition of skeptical

'this game drove me to drink.' likely to continue to draw attention to the bottom of these posts.

1831 - fallout: new vegas

'9 & 2 | 2' seems to be saying 9 werewolves, 2 mafia, 2 town.

1844 - first result when searching 'raven gif'

1857 - not sourced, potentially frustrated with setup

1868 - wikipedia entry for the enemy of my enemy is my friend

1872 - oxford dictionary definition of why

1943 - execution of nathan hale, 1776

got weird results for 'who is pulling the strings?' that could be potentially related to the main text here but it seems more likely to be a continuation of the previous bottom of posts line of thought, in which case the answer would be hectic, i assume.

1951 - mafiawiki entry for win condition

1954 - continuation of three faction speculation

1955 - see above

from this it seems unlikely that nahdia's original intention was to communicate to us the setup but rather something they added later when they started making these posts again as you can see from the differences between the subsets {nahdia posts 1533-1674} and {nahdia posts 1813-1955}. i think the intention was to try to make us doubt our setup assumptions, likely because they are correct. skitter also drawing attention to nahdia's attempts to 'communicate with someone' through these posts is suspicious as i am pretty sure she'd have easily been able to determine what was likely being communicated if she wanted to so instead it feels like she was potentially a part of the ploy. oddly enough, the two players also referenced directly in these posts are skitter and raven branwen, so if nahdia's third alignment speculation is to be believed, it seems to point toward them as well.

if nahdia actually believed there was a third alignment (unlikely, more likely a plot/distraction) it seems they believed it was you and skitter or at least wanted us to think it was you and skitter.

and i found it very strange that both you and raven branwen felt the need to say you thought nahdia was trying to communicate with someone without really investigating it yourselves. i originally thought it was suspicious that you were drawing attention to this, and that you were possibly part of the ploy, but i leaned toward this being unlikely due to the fact that you were not pushing me as the person they were likely trying to communicate with, as i would be the fairly obvious person to frame with something like this, since i have previously communicated through literary references and veiled references to completed games and possible setups extensively in other games. even my /confirm in the queue:

/in silent star: lunacy

and save neither stanzas nor constellations

was a reference to a poem that is very dear to me: https://ruverses.com/marina-tsvetaeva/a ... ellations/

but when it seemed more likely that it was not just a distraction and i thought we were more likely looking for a pair of non-mafia, your reactions seemed much more plausible for that situation, as did each of you continuously reaffirming that the other is a werewolf. since it seems much more likely to me that if only one of you is a non-werewolf that you are fooling raven branwen than vice versa, it seemed more likely you than her if the non-mafia non-werewolves are not paired, and beeboy seems the most individually likely to be a non-werewolf to me in setups that aren't 10/3. at this point i'm not sure it isn't more likely to be beeboy/dunnstral, but that was my reasoning at the time.

i'm kinda trusting her on clover

my read on clover ebi at this point is largely based on what i think is the most likely setup. if 10/3 i still think clover ebi is quite possible, but i really don't think 10/3 makes sense anymore.

I also still think I am the only player actually casing their target.

your "case" is based entirely on a few posts by nahdia and completely ignores everything i have done this game. if you think the setup is 10/3 and that i am the remaining mafia, that means that you think i claimed werewolf at the beginning of day two without informing my partners and did not account for the ramifications for them, which i obviously would have considered and did consider what it might mean for the people who were paired with lilith/starbuck which is extremely evident from my very first question upon revealing:

i too am a werewolf and i am fairly certain lunacy is a town of werewolves.

was anyone in a pt with starbuck and/or lilith?

it simply does not make the least bit of sense to me and you insist that you aren't going to readjust and that my attempts at solving the game are anti-werewolf.

Dru did the same thing towards me.
This is why I feel like people are just piling on me because they can.

i voted you because i was frustrated that you would not help figure out which world we are in. i too have thought that people are possibly piling on you because they can here, but your play does not make sense to me either so it is hard to fault them for this. like maybe it is convenient but it is hard to consider that when they make more sense to me than you do.

well tuxedo mask was likely the hang anyways. I do think the watcher claim was not necessary start of day.

@Dru, what is your reaction to this? Unlike Kanna’s Nahdia result, Kanna already had Tux as her #1 sr, so therefore your result isn’t clearing.

i fundamentally disagree with beeboy, and apparently midwaybear as well, that it is incorrect to claim at the start of the day. i think it is always correct to immediately present the information you have if you are going to do so anyway in order to have everyone solving for the worlds you know are possible rather than impossible worlds. like before the result i was considering both the possibility that chara was mafia as well as the possibility that chara was not mafia. i see no reason for people to waste their energy and distract from the actual situation by having people continue to consider the possibility that chara was not mafia if chara did not have another explanation for my result, which it did not. this is how i've approached all similar situations in this game (claiming werewolf at the beginning of day two, presenting my result at the beginning of day three, presenting my updated view of the likelihood of another faction at the beginning of today) and many other games. i often push for claims and results from other players. having more information is generally good.

[drusilla]

I mean I don't have to assume that? You have an entire night phase to talk about it. You would have known the 2nd werewolf flip was coming well in advance I don't think this argument holds up given you didn't claim within 10 seconds of noticing the flip as mafia. You claimed after a minimum of 2 irl days knowing 2 werewolf flips were coming.

yes so you think we talked about it for an entire nightphase and came up with a plan that didn't account for their pairings and got them killed? does not make any sense.

[drusilla]

You never said Watcher + BG didn't make sense balance wise to be together. Why should I assume you knew that wasn't a reasonable pair given you never said that?

i said it seemed an unreasonable pair before anyone else did. i don't understand why you would need me to have said why.

Also I don't know how anything you've done so far would suggest you can't be a part of this 2nd scum team you keep making theories for?

You aren't exactly outing yourself since evidence points towards you being mafia so you don't lose much convincing us that faction is dead.

from your perspective i could be part of the third faction, in which case why would i be solving for a third party when other people weren't?

no it doesn't. the "evidence" is still a conversation you had with nahdia that ignores everything i've done this game.

Why the guilty doesn't matter.

Dru claimed Uni backup, post 1 in the scum PT (if this didn't happen Dru is just larger scum lol).
Dru had to claim a guilty
Scum likely thought it was "obvious" Kanna was a cop. Dru claimed before they realized some townies didn't think that.
Claiming to "miss" with your watcher is just a scum claim with extra steps if Kanna was obvious in your eyes
Tux was both a VT and was never end gaming anyway his life wasn't high value.

it was post seven of my werewolf pt. post one was a greeting and post two was various werewolf related songs i like to help throughout the game.

you still haven't explained why i would start day two pushing tuxedo mask based on posts he had made day one, or really anything else. like i said, you simply ignore me and say i'm mafia because of nahdia.

[drusilla]

VC on this page.

for what's its worth I dont think beeboy is mafia aligned based off the tux/nahdia stuff. They'd have been bussing their only PR sooner or later. I guess it could have been a huge distancing play early game although I doubt it

i don't think there is any mafia left alive, and beeboy thinking something chara said after being hammered outweighs the evidence in favour of the likelihood of a third party also makes little sense to me.

[drusilla]

The why matters. Otherwise it's just a statement people are likely to glance over.

maybe try reading my posts instead of glancing over them. i don't see how that is on me.

What is this "everything else" you keep bringing up that makes you town? The only thing I've read it Clover says you are town for PT stuff.

my entire approach to the game from day two onwards. do you think my play has been the same as it was on day one? day one was my scumplay, given. the rest is me actively solving the game. i claimed werewolf, pushed tuxedo mask for strange comments he had made day one with that information in mind, kanna outed the guilty, and we got to where we are. day three i out my guilty keep us on the right track, tried to keep focus on who the third mafia would likely be as at the time i thought 10/3 was most likely. day four i take into account the new information, try to figure out what it means. everything i have done is pro-werewolf, in a very clear manner to me.

I did in the above post, you saw the guilty, knew you were a watcher and thought it was obvious Kanna was the cop.
You literally had to claim the guilty and prepping for it causes you no risk what so ever.

you did not. in the above post you talked about day three, in terms of my guilty claim. this does not explain why i pushed tuxedo mask as the most likely non-werewolf before kanna outed her guilty of nahdia.

Multiple people are making this argument. Some of which literally have to be town.

skitter said she rethought it and didn't feel that way anymore.

You also aren't voting me or suggesting who else you think is scum.

in a post you replied to earlier today i explained at length why i had thought it was most likely raven branwen/skitter but have since reevaluated to you based on your play today.

[drusilla]

i think we should just rule out the possibility of a townie/protective/ww preventing the nk

this is what i was attempting to do with my interactions with beeboy at the very beginning of the day.

and then, if that's ruled out, my best guess for what's going on is: two man mafia team who were unpowered but could kill, and a two man non-mafia scumteam who were powered but could not kill, and then 9 ww's

this seems most likely to me as well.

[drusilla]

@midwaybear, if you're legit a doctor I am claiming next post lol.

this is the quote

I don't know how that kill was blocked.

[drusilla]

he probably docced someone else then because I remember him mentioing he didn't want ti reveal certain things.

uh, what? how would he know it was 'someone else'?

[drusilla]

Dru why are you more concerned with defending yourself then voting me?
Do you have a reason to vote me that isn't something someone else is doing?

why would anyone be concerned with voting you? i would like more information before proceeding with my vote. i think i've made my current stance on your slot pretty clear. your play does not make sense to me, you do not attempt to evaluate my slot, your view of the game seems like you're incorrectly weighing the information you have access to, it makes sense within my current view of the setup for you to be likely third party.

[drusilla]

Dru is apparently the only one who KNOWS that mafia have been eliminated.

i don't know this, but it does seem the most likely explanation to me. skitter also seems to think it is the most likely explanation.

[drusilla]

Because I think Dru is a scum role blocker who faked a guilty.

who also thought, ah i should claim global backup before the game started? still not making any sense.

[drusilla]

Why did you wait until post 7 to claim your role?

asked our glorious moderator if i was allowed to copy paste it, was told no. made a hello post, compiled songs, clover ebi made three posts, i replied to one of them, then i claimed and ask his role.

[drusilla]

tbh if anyone thinks this is clearing and not scum with additional information trying to town spew then idk.

i don't think it is clearing but rather it is simply the truth.

Why did you think copy pasting a role pm served a function "I am a uni backup", didn't?

i like to have it there for reference for both of us.

[drusilla]

When someone pushes a ludicrous theory like this, most if the time it comes from scum.

i am a werewolf, i don't think the theory is ludicrous and in fact it seems most likely to me, and i no longer think it is most likely you, as i've stated multiple times already.

[drusilla]

Who were star and lilith paired with, then. Couldnt be each other ...

mafia i am assuming who then claimed eachother. that's why i asked.

[drusilla]

When someone pushes a ludicrous theory like this, most if the time it comes from scum.

i am a werewolf, i don't think the theory is ludicrous and in fact it seems most likely to me, and i no longer think it is most likely you, as i've stated multiple times already.

[drusilla]

i'm confused why she wouldn't have just helped them avoid the whole mess by telling them to claim to be paried with lilith/star ?

this was one of my first posts of day two so i was obviously aware of the implications:

i too am a werewolf and i am fairly certain lunacy is a town of werewolves.

was anyone in a pt with starbuck and/or lilith?

[drusilla]

Can someone tell me why the scum roleblocker doesn't target the claimed watcher as they try and shoot the cop?

a) how do you know there's a roleblocker?

b) if the scum aren't aligned why would scum without a nightkill prevent mafia from being outed?

Alright, I stand corrected on this but I think bee’s reaction last night seemed really townie to me and if he/Dunn are prs, then why a no kill? I’m assuming you’re now arguing scum is in bee/Dunn, is this correct? Or do you still think there are not one but two scum?

i still think there are most likely two scum, and like morning tweet it makes the most sense to me that it is one of the pairs.

[drusilla]

a) how do you know there's a roleblocker?

Because I assume this game has a semblance of balance?
What is a rolecop going to do watch the scum die?

If scum had bus driver you wouldn't have got a watch result because scum could have redirected you.

why is 9/2/2 with what we know unbalanced?

[drusilla]

I refuse to believe scum just don't have additional power.

i just think you are viewing the setup entirely incorrectly, perhaps intentionally.

[drusilla]

I gave you a sample multiball setup that has a doctor/IC. pretend that is 2 power roles.
We have 5 if your town.

1) i don't know that either you or dunnstral are werewolves.
2) the mafia were very likely paired with werewolves, thus they were basically informed of their roles.
3) as morning tweet has stated several times, the mafia having infiltrated werewolf pts is very powerful in and of itself.
4) a werewolf is highly likely to be eliminated day one because the werewolves do not know they are the majority.

[drusilla]

I thought my posts were unreasonable for a WW to make.
If I am werewolf then all my statements about the setup become true right?

no? my point is that i can't definitively count your roles towards the werewolf power level.

[drusilla]

You can't argue a setup where we get a cop guilty into a watcher guilty watching the cop.
Is somehow fair for scum if they can't interact?

both of those roles are confirmed in the game even without me. all of this is part of why i thought clover ebi was most likely the third mafia if it was 10/3, as he was paired with me.

[drusilla]

Dru still not voting me btw.

why is this so important to you? i can show you plenty of town games where i didn't place my vote, if you'd like.

[drusilla]

no? okay. anyway, to appease you i will:

VOTE: beeboy

[drusilla]

Me -> Dru -> Dunnstral.

Should just be game winning.
I don't actually care very much as to the order in which achieves a win. If lynching me makes you all feel cozy go for it.
Technically Dru and Dunn get results so maybe I should just go first?

But I really put 100% effort into my town game here so I don't particularly feel bad being lynched ngl lol.

i know i am a werewolf and i too am putting a lot of effort into my 'town' (werewolf post-day one) game here and to me it feels very frustrating to be a possible elimination regardless so maybe just a different mindset.

i actually think no elimination might be the play based on what we know but the possibility of a plague/arsonist role has thus far scared me away from proposing it.

[drusilla]

@Dru why no execution? We still have six days. If it was close to deadline I could see your point but unless you’re in MELO, a no execution just helps scum.

i do not believe scum have a nightkill, i and others have roles.

[drusilla]

and flavour reasons.

[drusilla]

I don't think you're getting an answer to that.

i also think it's pretty unlikely to be answered. especially since 'scum' could be referring to multiple factions, et cetera et cetera.

also, i think whoever is going to be eliminated today if we do eliminate someone should always hammer themselves when at E-1 after someone says they would hammer because of the 'brave volunteers' thing from the flavour.

[drusilla]

The fire burns a deep red colour, the knight nods and says that the ritual is now complete. Spoiler: [/spoiler] The mayor says that the curse of lunacy has yet to be completely removed, and that it is a tragedy for the townspeople to remain as werewolves for their whole lives. He thinks he's figured out a way to reverse the curse of lunacy, but he'll need a few brave volunteers to help him test it out. He claims that he can even do something about their amnesia, returning the werewolves back into the people they used to be..͘

still feel as though the top part is indicating that we eliminated the mafia and the bottom part is indicating that we are still looking for two other suspects though. it just makes sense across the board to me.

[drusilla]

So @Dunn, what is your current beeboy read? @Clover? @Dru? same question.

i have also stated this multiple times, but i thought that in 10/3 worlds clover ebi was fairly likely to be the third mafia, but i just don't see that as the situation of this game anymore.

[drusilla]

Why would you even advocate for this? I vehemently disagree with this. No one should self hammer especially if they’re town, that’s (no offence) hella dumb and anti-wincon.

the flavour says we are looking for brave volunteers. if another player who isn't on the wagon says they are going to hammer, and the player about to be hammered is online it makes sense to me that the player hammers themself. this doesn't seem likely relevant to me but it seems non-0% as well. maybe .1%? but still, seems better than not doing so.

So, who do you think are the two scums then?

My reads make that highly unlikely.

currently i think it is most likely beeboy/dunnstral but i would not say i am particularly confident in this.

also, are your reads generally infallible? you are saying we should know skitter is a werewolf because you say so, and that it is highly unlikely there are two scums based on your reads, but have you found that throughout your games your reads are almost always correct? i have reason to heavily doubt your reads, as you currently scumread me, but based on past experience do you have reason to doubt your reads?

[drusilla]

I can only assume she's hypothesizing something happens to the members of today's lynchwagon

And to be fair she said they should only self hammer after someone else expresses the intent to hammer them. Doesn't really matter that way

it just says in the flavour thing i quoted above that our mayor needs brave volunteers, which i assume a self-voter would qualify if this was relevant.

[drusilla]

So do you and Dru think we have a supersaint or something in this setup? Because that’s the only reason I can see for that?

He thinks he's figured out a way to reverse the curse of lunacy, but he'll need a few brave volunteers to help him test it out.͘

this was the extent of my reasoning for that proposal.

it is harmless as the person being eliminated would be eliminated anyway and we know who would have hammered as the person only self-votes after someone else not on the wagon says they would hammer in this situation.

[drusilla]

For what it's worth i think the brave volunteer part is referring to the person we're killing with the vote. So in other words its a standard elimination

i do as well and i think it is very unlikely to be relevant but also non-zero percent. self-voting would make someone a volunteer. seemed like an upside-only suggestion to me.

[drusilla]

For what it's worth i think the brave volunteer part is referring to the person we're killing with the vote. So in other words its a standard elimination

i do as well and i think it is very unlikely to be relevant but also non-zero percent. self-voting would make someone a volunteer. seemed like an upside-only suggestion to me.

[drusilla]

Why did you wait until post 7 to claim your role?

asked our glorious moderator if i was allowed to copy paste it, was told no. made a hello post, compiled songs, clover ebi made three posts, i replied to one of them, then i claimed and ask his role.

Why would you think you wouldn't be able to paste your role pm in your pt?

because i asked the moderator and he told me i wasn't able to. if you're asking why i asked the moderator, it is because the rules said i was not allowed to, and i know you know i read the rules.

[drusilla]

VOTE: drusilla

I think the watcher was a fake claim

the even-night watcher is a flipped werewolf. i am a werewolf global backup.

[drusilla]

VOTE: drusilla

I think the watcher was a fake claim

the even-night watcher is a flipped werewolf. i am a werewolf global backup.

Do you not agree that a ww even night watcher, a ww bg, a ww AC, a ww detective, plus a ww global backup is a lot of ww power - not to mention ridiculously cop heavy?

I think it’s highly unlikely both you and Dunn are ww investigatives and Dunn’s claim is more believable than yours.

yes, obviously, the amount of power is one of the reasons i thought it was very likely there was an additional non-werewolf.

why is dunnstral's claim more believable to you?

[drusilla]

unofficial VC, i think it's correct

[4] drusilla: beeboy, Raven, Morning, Dunnstral

(L-1)

[1] beeboy: drusilla

[3] Not voting: midwaybear, Clover, skitts

if anyone is definitely going to hammer me please just say so and i will hammer myself for reasons already addressed.

[drusilla]

(；﹏；)

people are so sure i'm somehow the third mafia in a game in which i don't even believe there to be a third mafia and having the knowledge that they are very wrong and yet so sure and not being able to convey that to them even though i feel it is very obvious from my play across the board and skitter being the only one who sees it while i'm not even sure i'm aligned with her is

(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)(；﹏；)

[drusilla]

One of the theories I had with the night flavor is that people who were previously werewolves days 1/2 would start turning into mafia, until there was a team of 4 mafia

So the game would have started with 2 mafia, and then 2 more people would be 'infected', or by the flavor 'have their amnesia removed'

That would explain the missing kill last night, I don't know if the game wouldn't just end if all the mafia died though

there are no midgame alignment changes. it stated that in queue specifically.