Mini 1316 - Last Will Mafia IV (Over)

[Macrophage]

Hi everyone

I don't have time to read through right now, but will soon.

And don't hammer me.

Vote: VoidedMafia

[Macrophage]

Page 1:

I feel bad for Alice.
Fishy, Nacho and Debonair look town.

Page 2:

LastSurvivor's question to Debonair is bad.
Rhinox looks town.
Actually LastSurvivor's question isn't bad, but Rhinox raises good points.
Good vote from 4nxiety
Eh, Fishy's vote doesn't make sense, but he's likely town for other stuff.

I think 49 is scummy. Voting Rhinox (following prob-town Fishy's vote) for serious-looking reasons, except accusations that Rhinox's posts are fluff and the inconsistency being made out to be much more significant than it should be, seem like scum just using ~bad stuff~ against him and not actually trying to find scummy stuff.

Page 3:

Top of LastSurvivor's 57 is really awkward. It's like he feels he has to consider Rhinox less scummy, but can't unvote because of the possible "You voted and then unvoted right after Fishy did!" opportunism accusations he would think he'd get.

The unvote in 59 makes me less confident, (I wouldn't think scum would want to unvote when asked to) but I still think he's scum.

Why is Alice last on everybody's will???

LastSurvivor's sleepless vote isn't good either. It's like he's always making sure he has reasoning for everything he does, but the reasons for his suspicions don't seem like town scumhunting and more like formulaic scum ~scumhunting~.

Page 4:

85 Again with the scummy reasoning.

@Sleepless 86 Was Fishy suspicion still vibe-based at this point?

It looks like I'll be voting Lastsurvivor.

Page 5:

I don't like hiplop's 105 but I don't think he can be scum with LastSurvivor.

Um... Kortul's top of 112 is all "Look how town I am!" but the number of no reads (or equivalent) make this questionable.

In 119 LS is telling SA to expand on his scumreads except it doesn't sound like he's actually interested. More of a "you should do this because that's what townies should do" feel. I think this is scummy.

4nxiety expresses my feelings exactly, and I'm liking hiplop's response too.
End of Page 5/Top of page 6- LS's posting is townish (The whole asking about Rhinox thing)

Page 6:

Funkybike's 145: As opposed to Rhinox, I don't like his "defence" of Malee. There's no real opinion there and I think it could be scum trying to distance from the wagon (maybe a scumbuddy on it or just for towncred?) without actually making any attempt to stop it.

Hmm, I'm getting less of a scumread on LS, but I'm not sure whether I'm willing to let it go.

Page 7:

Nacho's vote is

Ok, I don't like LS's wagon jump. Explanation of previous defence is slightly scummy, and using other's reasoning while making it sound like his own is scummy.
And those questions like "why is it fake?" "Why is it not genuine?" infuriate me and I'm not even the one being asked. And this may sound unlikely, but when I have found someone really irritating before, they've been scum.

Kortul's looking more like town, but:

At around 164 What exactly were your thoughts on Malee? Why did you not want to contribute them to discussion?

Ugh sorry, this is taking me longer than I thought it would, and I'm taking a break for now. Also, I've seen Malee's posts and I think I would be able to explain why she was town if people want me too.

[Macrophage]

Well I would say that I didn't actually put any thought at all into the vote and just did it for fun, but now that I've gotten these lovely posts in response to it, I'm not so sure I want to

[Macrophage]

Why does the number of people that went "What the fuck?" matter?

What does OMGUS have to with anything?

[Macrophage]

Continuing on...

Page 7:

Fishy in 174 Why are you more interested in lynching Malee before getting a replacement than actually seeing if a replacement better informs your read?

Page 8:

I'm quite liking Kortul.
Would be interested to see what Debonair's read of Nacho is now. Guess I'll have to wait.
4nxiety is freaky, except I'm not really feeling Alice-scum. It's not

that

bad though.

Hmmm, Sleepless's loss of Fishy suspicion looks too simple/easy/sudden (can't really find the right word), but I think they're both town otherwise.

Page 9:

I'll have to ISO 4nxiety. I've been thinking he was town mostly because of how he often said exactly what I was thinking. Sleepless' case is intriguing though.
Actually 4nxiety's lack of response to sleepless calling him scum out of the blue is interesting and his next post looks a bit like trying hard to look town after being suspected. I'll sort him out later.

Page 10:

Debonair has become less impressive to me.

@Anyone who has played with Debonair-town or Debonair-scum before, how does his play compare?

4nxiety's response in 247 seems a bit townish, but I'm not very sure.

Page 11:

Hmm, I'll probably ISO LS after, but I'm starting to think he's town.
And now Rhinox is freaky too haha.
Ok, I've decided LS is a townread.

If anyone thinks that my earlier points on LS are significant, please say so

I like the Debonair point, but I actually could see it as either town or scum depending on ~stuff~. I really want an answer to my meta question now.
I like Debonair's argument regarding Hiplop's vote.

Actually

Debonair, how do you think your play here compares to your usual town play?

I've been feeling a bit iffy about Rhinox. Read under consideration.

Page: 12

Alice vote in 279 is interesting. Significance depends on later actions.

Ok, so Alice votes Hiplop based on one silly thing with what I now see as a scummy comment. Hiplop posts afterward. Alice posts and does nothing about it. Originally I thought this was not meant as a serious vote and was for some other reason, but if she's saying she actually suspects hiplop because of it, I'll have to reconsider her.

Page 13:

Hmm ok. Alice unvotes. This makes it less bad, but I'm still concerned about that initial vote.

Alice, how serious was your initial vote on hiplop?

LS's next post is good and has me thinking.

Alice's response is quite townish though. I think I'll go back to my townread.

Page 14:

(Also on 13 I think) I'm seeing 4n as town again, although I probably will look over the ISO.

I'm not liking Rhinox's change of vote from hiplop after fishy says they are town v town. I could see him as scum thinking "Well I don't need to be involved in

that

anymore." Still, I'm really waiting for the chance to ISO him before changing my townread.

15:

Debonair, did your vote on theo have anything to do with Voided?

16:

Thank you Kortul! You are the only one with actual sense.

Ok, I'm pretty much done reading. I'm not up to anymore right now and will post thoughts later, but at the moment I'm thinking of lynching Voided. I'd rather not lynch funky because I really want to see his replacement.

The main things making me think Voided is scum are recent.

First, the "*ignores Macrophage's vote*" appears like scum concerned with having the negative attitude required (apparently) for a scumread, but it seems really unnecessary for town. Plus, the amendment in 207 is too self-conscious. The comment that my wagon gets better and better strikes me as scummy too, but I don't really know how to explain it.

I have to go and don't have any more time now, but thoughts on Voided and Vincent would be appreciated.

[Macrophage]

Alice: Knowing that I hadn't read anything, what made you think to ask the "What makes VM scummy?" question.

Debonair: How is it bad exactly?

Fishy: I don't want to be lynched today.

About Vincent: There were a couple of things that I thought were town about him and a couple of things that made me think scum.

Voided: I actually have a townread on LS.
And, That's the reaction I would expect from scum, it shows that you have something to hide, that you're worried that a vote on you is serious. I would expect town's reaction to the vote to be one of indifference, or at least asking the reason for it since it would likely not be serious from their PoV.

Can people vote Voided please?

LastSurvivor: What has made you aware of how townie your posts are?

I'll sort out what I think of people now.

[Macrophage]

Also, I did ask you to explain why you voted me, or did you forget that?

You're obviously too town for me then.

[Macrophage]

Some form of townread:

Fishy
Nacho
Kortul
4nxiety
LastSurvivor
Sleepless
Hiplop

Others

Rhinox-> There are many things that make me think town, but there are enough things that make me question my initial read. I think that the attacking of hiplop is scummy and then withdrawing his vote and never returning to the issue. The other main thing is his vote and lasting suspicion on me. He doesn't agree with the reasons other people have for suspecting me, but has his own thing. He's too unaware of other people's thoughts and too concerned with having unique reasoning. Also his reasoning is bad. It's much easier for scum to vote off wagons than attract attention from joining a main one (especially one that was previously considered a townread)
More scummy, is that he's somehow gained a sustained scumread from this. He mentions my catch-up posts as making him have doubts of the slot, which suggests he was reasonably confident of us being scum. I don't see how town-Rhinox could have gotten there and I think scum tend to be more "jumpy" with their suspicions. (as in somehow getting a scumread off one thing and not really considering things properly).

Still, there are many things when I read over his posts that I think of as coming from town. I am worried that I'm seeing towntells which I shouldn't be and I do find Rhinox scummy, but my scumread is not very strong at all.

Funky-> I think the main things I've found scummy about him are in the catch-up posts, although I do think that the points made for Funky being town are decent. I'm really waiting for his replacement to see what I think of him.

Debonair-> I don't really find much that's town at all about his play, except for a couple of things which I'd consider towntells from newbs, but not from someone with Debonair's experience. I'm considering pushing him as a lynch if Voided doesn't work out, but first:

Does anyone have Debonair as a townread. If so, why?

Debonair: What is your experience regarding the reliability of the Amished tell?
What made you think I was scum from that, despite Nacho and Fishy's not-so-positive reactions to it?

Voided-> Pretty much what I've already said. I would most like to lynch him today.

PEdit: @LS: I still find your reasons for suspecting people to be more similar to what's typically considered bad and less like what I think a townie would actually find scummy, but at some point in the game you started asking good questions and I forget exactly why, but the way you seemed to be trying hard to scumhunt and get the town moving made me think you were town.

[Macrophage]

4nxiety: What do you think of posts like 253? This and questions like the one at the end of 258 I really see as coming from town. I'm also starting to think scum wouldn't ask why someone found another person fake. It's completely nonsensical.

[Macrophage]

4nxiety, what do you think of voided? I'd rather not lynch Lastsurvivor.

Also, I have a question, does anyone know how the last wills usually work (as in what do you actually give to the people you placed higher) and are they revealed?

[Macrophage]

4nxiety, I'm not very sure about him, but I think he's more likely town than others.

Thanks voided. So do you think it is only the highest that matters?

[Macrophage]

Oh sorry, you're on the town list.

no.

But why not? *in a whiney voice while stamping feet*

UNVOTE: Voidedmafia
VOTE: Debonair

GO WAGON GO!

[Macrophage]

Whoops, accidentally pressed enter too many times.

I was going to say:

If anyone wants to vote Voided, please do. I'd like that wagon a lot more.

[Macrophage]

Because this one might actually save me from being lynched.

Also *whiny

[Macrophage]

L-1 again. Macro should get his will in order, and then claim, and then get lynched.

No, not-VT, and no.

4nxi3ty, I disagree. Macro's push on voided wasn't actually that great IMO. I did not feel like macro's vote was a joke. Voided's reaction wasn't that great, but that may be a separate issue. Independant thoughts - eh scum and town replacements both do that, come in and iso the game and make a big post and everybody goes ooooh aaahhhh see that couldn't possibly come from scum. Except when it does. I'm more interested in the content of the thoughts - page by page iso, lots of "this is what happened's". Lots of unexplained YYY looks town, ZZZ looks scum. Anybody can throw that together. I'm also not a fan that Macro made an accusation towards me in #413, which I responded to, and Macro completely ignored and restated as part of a long winded wishy-washy case towards me (often those come from scum) in #430, as well as ignoring the question I asked him/her about her (I'm just going to use her until you set a gender) about her voided/vincent Pre-"joke" vote read. And its not like she's not reading my posts at all - she seemed to catch where I said I was a having doubts about lynching her, so she's clearly cherry picking what she wants to address/answer/acknowledge. As for not voting funky or LS - meh, here were the votes just after Macro's "joke vote":

Macrophage (6) - Voidedmafia, Debonair Danny DiPietro, rhinox, 4nxi3ty, hiplop, fishythefish
funkybike1 (3) - Sleepless Assassin, Lastsurvivor, kortul
Voidedmafia (1) - Macrophage
Lastsurvivor (1) - nachomamma8
Debonair Danny DiPietro (1) - Alicewondering
Alicewondering (1) - funkybike1

Wouldn't even occur to me to vote LS to save myself had I replaced in in macro's position. As for not voting funky, you imply its the obvious scum move to vote funky to save herself, but if that were true scum would never do it, and then it wouldn't be a tell either way. Its a big circle of WIFOM. Its more likely that town or scum, Macro would realize it was going to take more than voting the only counterwagon to save herself. I don't consider where she dedided to push indicative of her alignment either way.

What did you think my vote was?

Why are you using unexplained reads against me when you could easily ask for explanations?

Which question did you ask?

Got the prod

Honestly, this day needs to end. Macro is pretty clearly scum imo

And you've pretty clearly lost your marbles.

[Macrophage]

Why Malee was town:

Response to Nacho in 24: The combination of lack of good reasoning for a vote while repeating what he said back at him.

Most importantly:

83 After complaining about someone else skimming, scum don't make a mistake like Malee did. It would likely make them subject to contradiction accusations from their PoV.

And I can see where Malee is coming from in 138. I agree that calling someone's post fake is a slight towntell.

Why theo was town:

Firstly, the amished tell isn't even the amished tell at all.

The big thing though, is his going from a townread on Alice to an Alice-wagon in the next post. How can any of you honestly see that coming from scum?

[Macrophage]

It's better if I don't claim.

Alice, why do you think I'm scum?

[Macrophage]

Give one good reason why you shouldn't claim.

It's better if I don't claim.

It's not from scum because I'm town. But also, only scum are thinking about how much their reads make sense based on what they've posted. What possible reason was there for theo as scum to do something so likely to attract attention?

I didn't think the Amished tell applied to saying your predecessor left you in a big pile of poop, because mine certainly have.

[Macrophage]

Dude, Macro, Malee was scum for putting together a really bad case on someone, then backing off like panicked scum. Theo was scum for leaping onto easy wagons without much thought shown, and for Amished tell. You're scum for bad votes.

Even though you've already softclaimed, it's in your best interests to claim because you're on the plate for a lynch.

Um, bad votes? Would I be more town if I voted myself?

And do you actually believe that the Amished tell applies and is accurate here?

I want other opinions before claiming further.

Also, just because it may not make sense coming from scum doesn't mean the action itself isn't scummy, Macro.

I think that's the definition o not scummy.

[Macrophage]

Ugh. It looks like I won't be able to get around this. I'm just a VT. I just couldn't see myself not getting lynched. What I ask is, don't just use this as an excuse to lynch me and don't write me off as scum because of my initial claim. I hope you can think about my actions and see that they come from town.

Still, I understand that I am likely to be lynched now, but if I am going to be here's what I want to happen.

I ask that everyone on my wagon, including whoever hammers, provides a short summary of their own thoughts on why I'm scum. A response to my defence of Malee/Theo would also be good.

Fishy: Did you always think a non-VT claim was unacceptable or did it take you a while to decide?

Hiplop: What did you mean? I'm pretty sure smart town is out the window now though.

LS: I don't which reads he wants explained, and I don't want to go back and do them all. Do you agree with Rhinox that it's something which should be used against me?

It's something that I tend to naturally do as town and from what I've seen, town do tend to do it.

Yes they can, but aren't they less likely to? I'm really sick of this whole "but scum can do that too!" attack that you, fishy and rhinox have been using. Can you actually consider things properly?

I don't know why he did it, but I know he was town. Looks like you can't answer my question though.

Kortul: What do you think of Debonair & LS?

My thoughts at the moment are that I'm pretty sure that there is scum on my wagon. I think that what I've pointed out about Malee/theo should make this slot pretty obviously not-scum (if not obviously town) and as I've mentioned, the whole "scum can do that too!" reasoning that's been used to sustain the wagon is horrible. This is why I want the whole reasoning thing from people on my wagon.

Voided and hiplop are the probable town on my wagon.

Other than that, I'm not really sure. There are a quite a few things I've found very townish about Fishy throughout, like his early play, and asking to be put at the top of my will, but his continued presence on my wagon and the unvotes which seem like scum trying to look they're considering things when he's actually not changing his opinion at all, make me think he's scum.

LastSurvivor's recent posts have made me question my townread on him as well. Debonair I still think is scum. Rhinox I'm thinking about.

I'm quite confident in Sleepless, 4nxiety and Alice being town, so please don't lynch them unless you have really good reason too.

[Macrophage]

What's your problem?

[Macrophage]

Erm, no not really@first statement. We've gotta consider that Malee is rather inexperienced. I don't think she's ever finished a game. She's just as likely to make a mistake as either alignment TBH.

Oh, I thought I already did answer your question. I can see that coming from scum fairly easily.

Why are you even bothering to defend your predecessors anyway?

Also, the ad hom attacks really aren't helping you out in any regard.

That's not an answer to my question.

So I don't get lynched. I wouldn't bother otherwise.

What ad hom attacks?

Macro: You've gone on and on about wanting me dead, and then suddenly completely reverse your read on me, pretty much the same as theo did except scum to town instead of town to scum. And as far as I can tell, there's no reasoning why you did that switch.

2ndly, witholding a claim like that isn't pro-town at all, and the AtE doesn't help you.

DCL: Explain to me how you know he wasn't scum. That line screams that you have some sort of inside info about him, to be honest.

You're not a strong townread if that makes you feel any better, but out of those on my wagon, I feel you and hiplop are the more genuine. Obviously there must be town on my wagon and I can more easily see you two on there as townies than the others. Also, I was thinking before that your negative attitude to me was an indication of you being scum and trying to appear like a townie that thinks I'm scum, but your posts to me about last wills, and other stuff I think, have changed my mind about this.

[Macrophage]

@Nacho

I'll try rereading him and post what I think is significant. From what I remember, I found him really scummy early game and then really townish later. His posting now is scummy again.

I think that DDD is the better lynch though. What do you think of him?

@Rhinox

I'm pretty sure I already answered that. I think I said that vincent said some slightly townie things, some slightly townie things, and other than that, didn't make much of an impression.

Your response didn't do anything for me. Scum often have "town" explanations for what they do.

@LS I don't think that's ad hom. You just aren't considering things properly...

@Hiplop Can you say a short few sentences on why you think I'm scum?

[Macrophage]

Oh really? What if I call you supertown?

[Macrophage]

@LS That's actually a part of it yeah.

Also for me are the reasons you've used to suspect people throughout.

@Nacho My opinion of LS hasn't really changed. There are a few things I find scummy about him, but a lot of his posts give me the impression of town trying hard to move the town forward, get everyone to answer questions etc.

He's definitely one of my weaker townreads though, and I don't think I even have 3 scumreads. Can you say what you think is most scummy about him?

Also what do you think of Debonair?

[Macrophage]

@Rhinox

I hadn't thought of that, but I do think it's different.

You're using the "town can do it too" thing either in response to no one or in response to other people's thoughts of me, while I think your explanation for your actions is not necessarily true.

I think the fact that you were so involved in suspecting hiplop and then backed off because it wasn't going anywhere with no effort afterwards to try and read him is scummy, especially considering it had gotten past the point where you backing off could have caused accusations of wanting to avoid conflict.

@Fishy

What I mostly find scummy about him are his bad questions, his "scum-like" reasoning for suspecting people and I think his recent posting is scummy too, except I don't know how to explain it.

What do you now think of LS's previous posting that led you to believe he was town?

What do you think of Debonair?

[Macrophage]

@LS I'm an alt (in case you didn't know already). I've played ~15 games (I think). If any of you work out who I am, I'd rather you didn't tell anyone.

DCL, thanks for your post, and I think some of your points are good, except a couple of them are really strong indications of them not being scumbuddies. Most is the voting for the same people point. Scum would definitely try to avoid this. And obvious defending is usuallly avoided too.

LS: Do you share Fishy's uncomfortable feeling after being linked with someone?

Why do you have a problem with being accused of defending fishy?

[Macrophage]

DCL: Can you link me to a DDD-town game?

[Macrophage]

Voided, do you think I'll be lynched today?

[Macrophage]

Considering that pretty much everyone off my wagon has said that they think I'm town and/or won't be voting for me, why aren't you trying harder to convince them?

I'm deciding right now whether to go with DDD or LS. Still not sure.

Unvote

for now.

[Macrophage]

Considering that pretty much everyone off my wagon has said that they think I'm town and/or won't be voting for me, why aren't you trying harder to convince them?

I'm deciding right now whether to go with DDD or LS. Still not sure.

Unvote

for now.

The question was @Voided in case that was unclear.

Another question Voided: Do you have any experience with town or scum doing the "I have a special PR that I'm not telling" thing?

And the switch on you was explained.

@LS: What is this continued survivalism? I don't get it.

Um, you could ask why I posted those posts... I don't actually see what survivalism has to do with it, but you're the one accusing.

I've only skimmed through DCL's and LS's latest posts, but I would like to say that I'm not sure the lying/contradiction thing about DDD is a scumtell. As town, I've lied about not seeing a PEdit before posting and I've called someone null, town and then null all within a few posts. The only blatant lie/contradiction I've seen from scum was basically mod-confirmed. For those pushing a LS lynch, how big a part of your suspicion is the contradiction and what do you think of it possibly coming from town?

LS's posts are still coming across as scummy from me, but I'll reconsider them when I'm in a better mood.

[Macrophage]

Vote: Lastsurvivor

I'd prefer him over DDD.

If you're town on my wagon, just get off and choose between DDD and LS, so we can get one of them to claim. If you're scum, feel free to stay there

@hiplop Why are you still alive?????

[Macrophage]

Kortul: I don't think I can elaborate further.

LS: I agree with 4n's point that your recent posts are all about defending yourself and I see little effort to work out who's scum. Also, you coming in and talking about survivalism after others have when I'm pretty sure you don't actually believe it. Admittedly DDD not being around is also something that makes me feel bad about voting him, even though I know it probably shouldn't.

I forgot to answer your question. I wasn't sure why Voided was insisting on voting for me when it seemed like I wasn't going to be lynched without trying to change this.

Can you answer mine?

[Macrophage]

It's not unreasonable, but I do think it is scummy.

I'm not feeling good about Macro. Just because it's one day to deadline doesn't mean I have to stay on a ML.

What do you mean by this?

[Macrophage]

that isn't how this game works.

Its like "all people 3rd on a wagon are scum", if the scum know thats what people are looking for, they aren't going to do it. The guy was blatantly testing the waters w/ PR claim, claimed vanilla when no one bit

But why do you think I'm scum?

And an answer to my other question would be appreciated too.

[Macrophage]

It's an explanation for why scum would do what I did. It does in part, but I want to know how he got to the "Macro obvscum must die a horrible, horrible death!" stage.

[Macrophage]

Hiplop, can you just say why you think I'm scum?

[Macrophage]

There are only three people I don't have some sort of townread on: DDD, Voided, Rhinox, but I'm pretty sure they can't all be scum together. DDD and Voided are probably the stronger two scumreads and I'll explain why a bit later.

@Rhinox How do you have a strong scumread on Debonair?

@Sleepless I remember thinking your case was ok, but I really see 4n as town here.

[Macrophage]

Really don't like macro's switch on his voided read, is it just me or does it seem like macro swapped from calling voided scum to town late in day 1 simply to try and get voided off of his wagon?

Reread and tell me how likely you think this is.

I'll wait for Rhinox to post before saying why I think Debonair is scum, but regarding Voided...

Mostly it's his continued scumread on me. He says stuff like he's going to refresh himself on my posts, but he's not considering my alignment and is using almost everything I do or say against me.

[Macrophage]

Vote: Debonair

Apart from not being very town, it's his continued use of the Amished tell to justify my lynch and lack of attempt to get a better read of me that making me feel scum here. I'll just let you know though, if a Voided wagon pops up, I'd totally consider joining it. I'm doubting that they're both scum and I'd maybe feel a little better voting Voided, but it really isn't much.

@Debonair What's your experience with the amished tell?

@Voided Why the misrep?

[Macrophage]

Also, what do people think of Rhinox's reasoning for voting Debonair?

[Macrophage]

@4nxi3ty: I don't like it, but I want to see what other people think before elaborating. What do you think?

@Mod

I think Alice is voting Debonair

@Voided: You magically being a townread and when I was and when I wasn't under pressure.

I don't really know how well the amished tell has been used before, but it seems fairly obvious to me that if you think your predecessors are bad when you read through, you're quite likely to say it.

~Vote Count fixed

[Macrophage]

@4n: I think Fishy's town, so I'd take him off. Alice maybe, but I'm not really feeling it. If I was to guess, I'd probably say something like:

Two of Debonair/Voided/Rhinox

And then I'm not sure, could be any of Alice/DCL/hiplop, but they do seem town to me.

@Voided: Er, I was at L-1 when I called you scum too... I did think at the time that people would unvote me and move onto someone else, but I don't think I would have felt that way as scum, and it became quite clear that wasn't going to happen quite a while before I said I thought you were town. And really, I don't know how having you, hiplop and Debonair refusing to believe I'm town is considered safe. (Actually note: Voided scum makes hiplop-scum more likely) But regardless of this, do you really think that I as scum would think expressing a townread on you would make you unvote me? My main problem though is you saying I magically got a townread on you.

[Macrophage]

Did you not see the post I made right after you went to claiming VT? THREE SEPARATE POSTS had you declaring an intent to want me dead, and then VWIP! townread!

My point is that I was under pressure long before that despite what you say. This read change point feels so much like scum trying to keep me as a likely lynch, as after thinking about it, I'm not sure how it could be considered scummy. Hmm, can people please answer these questions:

What do you think of my read change on Voided? Do you think you could see it as scummy?

[Macrophage]

It’s a straight damage control move; attempting to make a player’s slot seem more town by excusing their prior play due to incompetence. Town’s first instincts upon replacing in are “who are scum?”; scum’s first instinct is “protect myself”.

I feel like anyone with a wagon on them is going to want to protect themself.

Sure, but we’re talking about first instincts; I get that town PM as a replacement and my first instinct is always, “who is scum”? I don’t even bother reading the person I’m replacing beyond what I absorb from reading the entire thread because I know they’re town and nothing I can do can change what they’ve already done on my behalf.

@Debonair: But what about if you replace in, read the game, and a day later everyone says "Yeah, macro's posting is fine, but he's scum because of his predecessors, so LYYYYNCH!!!!"? When you know someone is town, you stop them from getting lynched.

@Rhinox: Why did you not meta Debonair yourself?

[Macrophage]

@Kortul: No, please don't vote me. I know my predecessors are going to be a big reason why you're voting me, but just trust me when I say I'm town. I don't understand your problem with my Voided read changes though. I think I'd have better reasoning if anything as scum. Also, what is your theory regarding the scum motivation behind the change?

Oh yeah I forgot about that. I thought that avoiding questions was a bad reason to think Debonair was scum.

[Macrophage]

@Kortul: How were they convenient? And don't you think the solution should be that I'm neither competent nor incompetent scum? In answer:

@Sleepless: I really don't see myself joining a 4n wagon unless something drastic happens.

@DCL: Do you have your own thoughts on why it's suspicious or are you just copying everyone else? (The latter is ok btw)

@4n: Well when no one responded I didn't think it was important to push, but I would have liked to know if anyone agreed with me before saying what I thought.

@Debonair: Would you want people to sheep you here?

[Macrophage]

Sorry, I forgot to answer. I don't know what I could do to better understand them, and I thought they were quite obviously not good reasons to suspect someone...

[Macrophage]

Does anyone actually have any basis for thinking my read changes were convenient/scummy/whatever? (Except for me attempting to buddy voided into changing his read of me, because that's just stupid. I even joked about it... [refrains from swearing]) Answers from DCL, hiplop and kortul are needed.

Really, the pushing on me from DCL, Debonair, Kortul, hiplop and voided are what I'd expect from scum- using my predecessors' stuff aginst me while also pulling out stuff about me that's magically scummy to keep me as a target. Well except for Debonair. He's a special case, but he can go in the scumpile too. The problem though, is I really think only two of them can be scum. Three scum are not going to all illogically push one player (well I guess it's possible, but I don't think so). So there are likely three townies that are likely going to keep wanting to lynch me throughout. DCL maybe no and kortul could be night-killed, but they'd be the only ones that would not be 90% likely to tunnel on me for at least the next few days and they could even be the scum here.

@Kortul/hiplop/voided/debonair/DCL: Are you likely to continue seeing what I post as scummy or do you think you could come to see me as town? If you're town, please answer this question seriously. I understand what it's like to think someone scum and want to get rid of them for a clearer read of the game regardless of their alignment.

I honestly am thinking suggesting that I just be lynched, because no one is taking my reads seriously (defying the purpose of creating this alt in the first place). It's all like "Who cares if Voided is actually scummy or not? Macrophage saying he is is just not town!" And I've recently come to realise that no matter how obvtown I think I am, if it looks like I'll be lynched at some point in the game, then I will be unless I'm a PR. I'm getting really frustrated by this game and don't want to delay my lynch if it's inevitable.

Sorry about my rant, but please do answer any questions I've asked directed at you.

[Macrophage]

what makes DDD a special case?

He's not trying to find anything scummy about me at all.

Yep, this is pretty clearly a five scum game and you've nailed our team; kudos.

And you've pretty clearly ignored what I was saying; kudos.

@Kortul: It means that I could see scum night-killing you if you are indeed town. What did you think it meant?

Macro: I don't know. Are you going to stop looking like the scum you seem to be, or will you start acting towny? I'm not just going to stop because you try to ask nicely if there's no reason for me to believe that you'll be better.

But I'm town, and how I've acted is as a result of that. And I really think that there are quite a few things I've done/said here that I wouldn't as scum. Also, serious question, how can I be "better" and how is this replacable with "less scummy"?

Really, the pushing on me from DCL, Debonair, Kortul, hiplop and voided are what I'd expect from scum

I wouldn't say that I have been pushing you much.

@Kortul/hiplop/voided/debonair/DCL: Are you likely to continue seeing what I post as scummy or do you think you could come to see me as town?

That really depends on you. If you act like town I hopefully will see you as town. If you act like scum I will most likely see you as scum. I don't see you as definite scum right now.

You haven't, but the way you've done it is scummy.

These responses have actually been interesting. Voided's is scummy. Kortul's I'm not sure about. DCL's is townish.

[Macrophage]

I wouldn't say that I have been pushing you much.

You haven't, but the way you've done it is scummy.

Ok, so I haven't pushed you but the way I did was scummy? That doesn't make sense at all.

So I did something scummy while not pushing you and I appear townish?

Also, can you answer the question about that reason for me changing my reads?

@Voided: If I was lynched right now, how likely do you think it would be for me to flip scum?

[Macrophage]

@DCL: You were pushing me, but not much. The way you did was scummy. I found the way you responded to my "will you see me as town?" question townish, and voided's scummy. I think this was pretty clear. I really don't understand how you can think I was trying to suck up to Voided though. I've looked back at my posts, and I just don't understand it. Also, why aren't you voting me?

@Debonair & Voided: Claiming VT is what VT's generally do too, in case you forgot that... And voided, the read changes aren't scummy because I'm town- more reasonable than any explanations for me being scummy.

Also, how do you guys that are voting/suspecting me feel about voting Debonair? (Debonair can answer too if he wants)

[Macrophage]

Hmm, will you unvote me if I call you scum?

[Macrophage]

Is there anything I could do that would cause you to unvote me?

[Macrophage]

I'm going to try and get my thoughts in order. Please pay attention to them if I am lynched (although preferably before that). I'm not asking you to sheep them or anything, but don't just dismiss them.

Reasonably Strong Townreads:

4nxi3ty
Fishy
hiplop (the only thing about him is that he seems different from how I've seen him play before, so I'm not that sure, but logic says he's town)
kortul
Sleepless

I have what I think are pretty good reasons for thinking all of them town. @Sleepless: I can do a "why I think 4nxi3ty is town" case if you like. Just let me know.

Until recently, I'd only really considered lynching Voided and Debonair today. I had a reasonable townread on DCL from day 1, but now I'm thinking he may be scum, except there are still things that I'm not sure about.

Scummy:

Since the beginning of the day, it's seemed a lot like he wants to suspect me, but has been too hesitant to get on my wagon. He hasn't really mentioned anyone else as possible scum, which I don't really know how to explain, but I think town would consider other people as scum while making up their mind about one person. The thing that has made me think DCL scummy is his vote on me in 748.

First-> The reasons he presents are interesting. As expected, there is the voided read change. The second point is hard for me to figure out. Possibly scum trying look convinced that I'm scum? It's really unnatural considering the reasons for his change in opinion of me from 746, which I'll get to now.

There's the *not liking me calling him town*. Firstly, this is exaggerated because I just said something he said was townish. I can't see myself having any problem with someone saying that to me. Secondly, he claims that his response was not actually townish or scummy. I think this strongly indicates scum, because it's trying too hard to justify his reason for voting me, but also because if I'm town, and someone says something I said was town, I would naturally believe that what I said was indicative of town. I could see scum thinking that they didn't do anything townish in a post though. Thirdly, if he believes that I had him as a townread, how does he think he knows my reasoning for calling him town? which I didn't even do! And he's not even asking why I found it townish, which I would expect before going on about how my reasoning is terrible.

The fourth point is really bad and I can easily see scum putting it there just to justify their vote better.

So, back to what I was saying earlier. I don't see how these two poorly thought out additional reasons can lead him to go from making his mind up about me to being convinced I'm scum, especially considering his cautiousness by not voting me. It doesn't make any sense from town, but it does fit together for DCL-scum being concerned about jumping on my wagon and wanting to have sufficient unique reasoning to support it. Even the vote post itself leads me to believe this.

As I'm writing this, I'm becoming more convinced and I may change my vote to see where it goes. I don't know how clearly I've expressed my thoughts though, so please ask if you want me to explain something.

There are things that I'm not sure about though:

I was beginning to get a fairly strong townread on DCL during day 1 and I particularly liked how he didn't just jump on me like everyone else. Also, his responses to my questions have been fairly townish. 730 and 755 are no different from what I'd expect from town. And, I think he's been very pro-town.

Actually another thing that's scummy. He's been using the fact that he sucked day 1 by pushing a lynch of LS as a reason that makes it less believable that I consider him town. I do not really see town thinking like this, whereas scum perhaps worried about being considered so because of it could think that way. But yeah, I don't really see town thinking "Oh crap! I mislynched someone. People will probably see me as scum now".

Unvote: Debonair

Vote: DCLXVI

Please respond.

[Macrophage]

Well, you COULD stop acting like a kiss-ass and follow Nacho's advice. Just a suggestion.

But really, you've honestly done nothing to help yourself as of late. Yes, you may have done SOME townie things; yes, you may have claimed VT; yes this, yes that. BUT, those townie things don't make you any townier via outweighing the scummy things you've done; your VT claim just has too much contrived-ness around it to make be any sort of plausible defence (nevermind trying to shut down anything with the, "but I'm town" argument).

Your exaggeration for how I'm taking your posts is pretty far off the map even for an exaggeration, but the fact of the matter is that the only reason you're still alive, it seems, is because of two dead townies stopping one of the DVs. I could be wrong on this, but that seems to be what it's down to.

P-edit: And lo! Speak of it, and it shall come!

The timing of it is somewhat questionable, but I still feel that this was probably one of the best times to put down a post like that, and not just for posterity's sake. It's a pretty townie post, and right now is pretty much what's making me rethink a little.

How am I being kiss-ass? How am I not scumhunting?

Honestly, how can you say I'm not doing enough when you're the one tunneling on me? And I hate this justification that "well, you've only really done SOME townie things" when there's not much actually scummy about me in the first place. I agree that the PR-followed by VT claim was bad, and if people still thought I was scum for that, I would at least understand, but I am happy I did it, as it ended up stopping me from being lynched right after replacing in and I hate it when people say that I'm scum having done it without considering me doing it as town. However, that doesn't seem to be the main thing that's being used against me at all, which really indicates that scum are trying to avoid pushing on something that could be considered obvtown and trying to paint me as scum in other ways.

I don't think I've been exaggerating anything. You give off the impression that everything I post is scummy.

How is the timing questionable?

And somehow I doubt that your opinion of me will change.

[Macrophage]

@Sleepless: Why are you content to sit on your 4nxi3ty vote without discussing him?

@Debonair: I don't know, but I'm a VT, so...

@Kortul: If it's only for a read of me, I'd rather not say why I think 4nx is town. If you think he's scum or are struggling to read him, I can if you want.

On DCL:

Can people please say what they think of him, and my reasons for thinking him scum.

Another thing I've realised is that I remember suspecting that funky was distancing from my wagon without really trying to stop it. This makes me think that DCL replaced in and found it necessary to not read me as scum because there were already 2 scum attacking me, just as funky did. The read change today for reasons that feel really contrived is something that makes his read of me day 1 less believable I think. I don't really know how to explain the read change from DCL-scum though. Possibly the scumteam decided to all attack me or he's buddies with fishy or rhinox? I'm getting ahead of myself here though, but yeah, thoughts on DCL would be appreciated.

[Macrophage]

Hmm, ok then.

Why I think 4nxi3ty is town

Part of the reason for my townread may not be of much use to you, but when I was reading the game, 4nxi3ty would often say exactly what I was thinking at the time. A good example is in 187 where the conflicted feeling over LS was exactly what I felt at the time. I think town are much more likely to have similar thoughts to me and post them instead of scum who are likely to alter what they post to suit their needs.

Also:

-Discussion topic in 222. Also in the same post, he votes Rhinox without providing an explanation and comments on the likely responses. I think scum would be more likely to provide reasoning instead of not caring what people think of them, as 4nx shows there.
-452 he says I'm town against popular opinion, but actually lists reasons and actively responds to someone, which I think indicates that he's town trying to put his thoughts out there and discourage my lynch instead of scum just trying to distance from my wagon. I think him saying he won't fight my lynch today adds to the towntell, because scum would probably try to be consistent and maintain that I'm town, especially when from 4nx-scum's PoV I would be a likely lynch anyway.
-743 is another thing that makes me think town because he's posting and showing that he can without providing any content that day at all. I think scum wouldn't do this because they could easily get attacked for it.

These are the main things that make me think town from his ISO. There are some things which make me think possible scum, but mostly I get a town feel from his post (and the extent to which I agreed with him as I read through is probably a big factor in the strength of my read).

@Kortul: What have you gained from this?

@Sleepless: What do you think of my reasons for thinking 4nx town?

[Macrophage]

@DCL: Re-760-> I'm pretty sure I've expressed my thoughts on these points somewhere. First, you're exaggerating my comment that your response was townish and desperately using it as ammunition against me. Second, I don't get why you think I'd call you town in an attempt to get you to unvote me after this kerfuffle with Voided.

I don't feel like arguing with DCL's post against me, but I'm really thinking he's scum. If people are ignoring me because they think DCL is town/my points are bad, please say why.

Macro, to answer your first question, I feel I've layed out my case. He responded and I responded back. No one else seems interested except for the fact that you have a town read on him. I'm leaving my vote there to basically say "I think he is scum and I'm not letting it go".

And your other question...honestly, your town case looks more like a case against him except that "scum would never be so obvious". Your first point is the same point I made with the same reasoning except you finish yours with "scum would provide reasoning". Really? How often are people voted for not providing enough reasoning? Next is that he went against your lynch. Well, it looked (or looks) inevidible that you will be lynched at some point. If I was scum and you were town, id want to distance myself from the mislynch. If you are scum, this point (and this discussion for that matter) is null.

The last part is a real gem.

you call 4n town for not providing a lot of content, which scum would apparently never ever do because they'd get attacked. So he MUST be town, right? WRONG

.

Listen. Scum do scummy things. Scumtells are, believe it or not, NOT town tells.

Do you think 4nx will be lynched today?

But that's right. First, they're horrible scumtells, and second, scum would feel uncomfortable doing them because they'd think it likely they'd get attacked because of it. Scum wouldn't do this to try and look town either, and your response is the reason why.

I have considered the distancing possibility and I would have agreed with you in the past, but in my experience, people strongly saying I'm town when I'm suspected have been town. Distancing is what I think DCL/funky were both doing.

It's easy for scum to provide content, but "fluff" posts and lack of content are always used as scumtells.

[Macrophage]

I’ve already trapped him with his own words; he knows what a vanilla townie SHOULD have done and yet he has no explanation for what he did other than, "uh, but I'm vanilla". Busted.

Are you serious?

I don't know what to think of this post. What do others think?

@Fishy: I'm starting doubt my 4nx townread, but despite what has been said, I do think I have good reasons to think him town. What do you think of them?

@Voided: Imagine I've been lynched and have flipped town. How do you see the game then?

[Macrophage]

@Kortul: I think I've already explained why I claimed the way I did. About doubting my 4nx townread: I'm questioning how valid my reasoning was for thinking him town. I don't think I'm as confident as I was, but I still think they're decent. And I don't really think much of the Fishy/Sleepless' reasons for suspecting him.

@Debonair: It's actually this.



Someone vote DCL with me!

[Macrophage]

Nooooo. I guess this will have to do instead.

[Macrophage]

Unvote: DCL

Vote: Debonair

I was just about to say something about preferring a DCL lynch when I realised I must've said something similar at least twice before. But seriously, please do tell me if any of you want a DCL wagon. Somehow I don't think this will happen though

Also, can everyone on my wagon please move your vote somewhere else (perhaps DCL? *nudge *nudge), or at least say who you'd want to lynch other than me?

@Alice: Did you mean to leave your vote on Sleepless?

[Macrophage]

Unvote: Debonair

Can you claim?

[Macrophage]

@4nx: What is your 2nd most preferred lynch?

@Fishy: How wasn't it survivalism?

Also, who else other than me is possibly going to be lynched today? I would really like to wagon DCL, but I don't see that happening. I could try harder, but I thought what I posted before was good and no one thought much of it at all. I just want Debonair to claim so that I can know whether I still want to lynch him or not. Is there something you plan on doing in the meantime?

[Macrophage]

Yes! Yesssssss!

Kortul, I love you.

VOTE: DCL

[Macrophage]

I've been trying to get a wagon on DCL for a little while now, so when I saw kortul's vote, I was like:



Before that, everyone was ignoring me about DCL, so Debonair is still looking like the likely lynch today and I would still like him to claim, but if people think they want another wagon, then he shouldn't.

Have you read any of the game yet?

[Macrophage]

I think I'll go through Funky and DCL's ISOs and post what I think. I ask that people please say what they think of my thoughts, especially if you disagree.

Funky:

Scummy:

This post seems a little too careful, a bit too much focus on having a justified vote and answer.

His flake seems to fit in with his saying he doesn't like being scum.

Not Sure:

There's something that makes me unsure here. He says he thinks vincent is vanilla town and I'm not sure that's something scum would say. I don't really like the rest of the post though. Especially the comments on the Malee wagon, which sound a lot like scum distancing from it without doing anything to stop it.

DCL

Scummy:

On Day 1, I thought DCL's replacing in and looking away from my wagon was townish, but funky didn't join my wagon either, and I've said that I think this could be because there were already scum (most likely 2) on my wagon.

536 is an example of DCL commenting on how he would've thought a Funky lynch justified if he hadn't replaced him. I don't get why he says this more than once, and the only thing I think was that scummy about funky was his distancing from my wagon, which I don't remember being a prominent point. So, it just seems weird to me, and I think it's scummy.

I don't really know how to say what I think of DCL Day 2 better than I did before, so I'll spoiler it here.

Spoiler: My post on DCL Day 2

Since the beginning of the day, it's seemed a lot like he wants to suspect me, but has been too hesitant to get on my wagon. He hasn't really mentioned anyone else as possible scum, which I don't really know how to explain, but I think town would consider other people as scum while making up their mind about one person. The thing that has made me think DCL scummy is his vote on me in 748.

First-> The reasons he presents are interesting. As expected, there is the voided read change. The second point is hard for me to figure out. Possibly scum trying look convinced that I'm scum? It's really unnatural considering the reasons for his change in opinion of me from 746, which I'll get to now.

There's the *not liking me calling him town*. Firstly, this is exaggerated because I just said something he said was townish. I can't see myself having any problem with someone saying that to me. Secondly, he claims that his response was not actually townish or scummy. I think this strongly indicates scum, because it's trying too hard to justify his reason for voting me, but also because if I'm town, and someone says something I said was town, I would naturally believe that what I said was indicative of town. I could see scum thinking that they didn't do anything townish in a post though. Thirdly, if he believes that I had him as a townread, how does he think he knows my reasoning for calling him town? which I didn't even do! And he's not even asking why I found it townish, which I would expect before going on about how my reasoning is terrible.

The fourth point is really bad and I can easily see scum putting it there just to justify their vote better.

So, back to what I was saying earlier. I don't see how these two poorly thought out additional reasons can lead him to go from making his mind up about me to being convinced I'm scum, especially considering his cautiousness by not voting me. It doesn't make any sense from town, but it does fit together for DCL-scum being concerned about jumping on my wagon and wanting to have sufficient unique reasoning to support it. Even the vote post itself leads me to believe this.

As I'm writing this, I'm becoming more convinced and I may change my vote to see where it goes. I don't know how clearly I've expressed my thoughts though, so please ask if you want me to explain something.

There are things that I'm not sure about though:

I was beginning to get a fairly strong townread on DCL during day 1 and I particularly liked how he didn't just jump on me like everyone else. Also, his responses to my questions have been fairly townish. 730 and 755 are no different from what I'd expect from town. And, I think he's been very pro-town.

Actually another thing that's scummy. He's been using the fact that he sucked day 1 by pushing a lynch of LS as a reason that makes it less believable that I consider him town. I do not really see town thinking like this, whereas scum perhaps worried about being considered so because of it could think that way. But yeah, I don't really see town thinking "Oh crap! I mislynched someone. People will probably see me as scum now".

Not Sure:

Posts like 518 533 seem very pro-town.

The Lastsurvivor case in 570 seems like more effort than what scum would put in. I can see scum doing this, but it seems more likely to come from town.

The thing I'm most undure about is DCL's recent calling me town. Part of me wants to call DCL town for it, but I like my reasons for thinking him scum, and am not sure whether it should affect my read.

Anyone's thoughts on this would be much appreciated.

[Macrophage]

@Kortul: It's not rude of you to ask. I'm male, but what difference does it make to you?

@Hiplop: What are you waiting for?

Intent to hammer. Debonair, claim.

[Macrophage]

@Magua: I do get paranoid about Fishy, but I don't agree that being unsure is a scumtell and a lot of his posts look like town. Also, why do you think DCL is town?

@Kortul: The same thing has been said about me on my main too hehe. What have you gained from your answer? How would it have been different if I had said I was female?

[Macrophage]

Unvote: DCL

Vote: Voided

I'd like this more than a 4n lynch.

PEdit:

I don't want to lynch Debonair and especially don't want to lynch 4n now.

[Macrophage]

Ok then...

Unvote: Voided

Vote: DCL

[Macrophage]

Ok. I've updated my will.

I'm not really sure what to do now, because I don't think there's anyone other than me that could get 7 votes on them before deadline. I think my thoughts at this point should be fairly clear from what I've posted, but I also think that the reactions to my claim and people's reasons for being on my wagon could be useful to further consider.

If I was to have a guess at the scumteam, I'd probably say DCL/Voided/Rhinox. Debonair's also still a possibility I think, but that decision can be made later.

[Macrophage]

I haven't really thought about him as much recently, but I think he makes sense with DCL and I have stronger townreads on everyone else.

[Macrophage]

Well done DDD and Kortul! Sorry about getting lynched.

And I thought your claim was really good DDD. I'm sorry that I didn't give my vote to you so it could be better. I was worried that it would seem fabricated if I had given my vote to you, but I think you were right that it would have been better if I had.

Thank you LlamaFluff for modding. I enjoyed the Last Will aspect of the game.

I'll leave it up to DDD/kortul whether or not to release the QT. I'm fine with it as long as they are.