Mini 1316 - Last Will Mafia IV (Over)
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kortul Goon
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Hello. Just a quick post from work. This week is busy for me, so will do a thorough reading of what had happened in the evening or tomorrow.
I did a quick reading of thread anyway, to submit initial Last Will, so may as well answer two questions that i've noticed. The last name on my will is Alicewondering - i don't know him/her, and his/her presence in this game is practically null so far. And from the player list i know DDD (completed a game together, that is lost in a crush), hiplop and 4nxi3ty (playing in other games with them atm).-
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kortul Goon
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It took me awhile to thoroughly read the thread several times, looking for interactions, do ISO on everyone and gather my thoughts into reads. Family demanded my attention as well, and they do have priority.
Lastsurvivor- leaning town. I agree with his logic, find the explanations and answers reasonable, and the activity level is good.
Fishythefish- neutral feeling.
Alicewondering- neutral feeling.
DDD- neutral feeling. Practically the same arrogant behavior as in my previous game with him, i even did meta research on him there to figure out if this is his usual playing style. It is. The research died along with a game, but i do remember my conclusions.
Rhinox- before i got to the post 54 my read was "neutral, leaning scum" because of the presence with lack of serious thoughts, this post changed my impression back to neutral.
Nachomamma8- controversial read. He is an experienced player, seems calm and confident, yet is flowing with a tide, mostly answering questions, with an occasional relevant question of his own. Not a single vote, even during RVS - those who know him, is it his usual playing style?
hiplop- no read. He become active only today, hope to see more content.
Vincent2128- no read. No presence, no content, no votes.
funkybike1- no read. No presence, no content, no votes. The only relevant question is good, but that makes his general absence really questionable.
4nxi3ty- i did a meta research on him in another game recently, and come to conclusion that his behavior is always scummy, so i have to rely on logic, votes and interactions while judging him. In this game i can analyse only RVS and 2 votes. I don't like his silent vote on my townread (Lastsurvivor), so that makes him leaning scum for now.
Malee- leaning scum. The initial vote looks aggressive, but i am not familiar with her usual style. Farther explanations are really inconsistent.
Sleepless Assassin- leaning scum. While he is posting regularly, those posts lack the content for me. He is sitting on a Fishythefish since the first post, alone, and does nothing to either build a case to gather support, or to question his suspects to confirm or abandon his reads.
VOTE: Sleepless Assassin-
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kortul Goon
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DDD - same behavior as in my previous game with him (Newbie 1210, we were both town there); 4nxi3ty - is much less active here than in the other game; hiplop - almost the same behavior (had 1 post in the other game for a whole Day 1, become a bit more active recently).In post 73, Lastsurvivor wrote:PEDIT @kortul: When I say "what do you think of their" I mean all the players you listed that you know, not just hiplop.
I also would like to hear the thoughts from Alicewondering behind the post 102, just want to make sure he doesn't miss the question.In post 103, funkybike1 wrote:In post 102, Alicewondering wrote:If Malee flips scum, LS becomes scummier.
Why do you think it would make LS scummier?-
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kortul Goon
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Does anybody know the Nachomamma8 enough to answer my question?In post 112, kortul wrote:Nachomamma8- controversial read. He is an experienced player, seems calm and confident, yet is flowing with a tide, mostly answering questions, with an occasional relevant question of his own. Not a single vote, even during RVS - those who know him, is it his usual playing style?
And i have a question forMalee- can you tell your thoughts/reads on anyone? Now that your case on Nacho is null, whom do you suspect and why?-
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kortul Goon
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Nachomamma8gave an explanation for his unusual start, and i like his point about Vincent2128 in post 152, so he is now neutral for me.
Sleepless Assassinactually gave explanations for his case about Fishythefish, and started to question him. On the other hand it may be just a safe parking place, since while Malee is also on his scum list, he doesn't question her. Therefore he is now neutral, leaning scum for me.
funkybike1- questionable appearance after the questionable absence. He gave a bunch of town reads (that is always scummy in my eyes on Day 1, from RL games experience), one scum read (with no vote) and i don't really understand this part:
I don't see a connection between the bolded part and the rest of the sentence.In post 145, funkybike1 wrote:However, I respect other people's opinions,and if this behavior continues from Malee, it will be very hard to dig out of the hole she created for herself.
funkybike1is now leaning scum for me.
Betweenfunkybike1andMalee, i am going to vote funkybike1. I don't want to put Malee at L-1 right now and risk a quickhammer, losing the rest of the Day 1. And i am still interested in her reads and thoughts.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: funkybike1
funkybike1, can you elaborate on your reads and explain why don't you vote for one of your scum reads?-
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kortul Goon
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Am i seeing an overdose of egocentricity? Or some kind of obsession with town credits - you were thinking that Malee attempted to gain town credits from you, now asking if you are town to me?In post 168, Vincent2128 wrote:In post 164, kortul wrote:Nachomamma8gave an explanation for his unusual start, and i like his point about Vincent2128 in post 152, so he is now neutral for me.
In that case, you agree with his point, and I am as a result town to you?
I like the thinking out of the box from Nachomamma8 in that post, and also think that scum has less reasons to bring such an unusual thought on public (unless both of you are scum). Therefore my read on Nacho improved.
On the other hand, i believe that extremely egocentric player may see that Malee post as "an attempt to gain town credits" regardless of his alignment, so you are neutral to me. But, if Malee replacement or you will flip scum one day, the other will get a town boost in my eyes, since i don't see scum accusing another scum of an attempt to gain town credits, at the same time adding suspicion with active wagon rolling on a partner.
My read on Malee didn't change - i wanted to see her thoughts and reads to get a better understanding and figure out whether there would be any inconsistences there as well. With this option gone, that slot remains leaning scum to me. Time will show whether this will be true by the end of the day - i am against speed lynches that deny us time and information/interactions, that can be gathered during this time.
That doesn't explain why didn't you vote before, when he was scum for you, question is still open. If Nacho isn't scummy anymore, whom do you suspect? There are other questions you haven't answered - at least two of your town reads are asking them, what is the reason to ignore us?In post 173, funkybike1 wrote:Nacho managed to provide a decent explanation for his behavior; I find it believable.-
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kortul Goon
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After you removed Nacho from your scum list, it is empty (at least the part that you share with us). Do you have any scum reads that you don't reveal? If yes, what are the reasons? I can't imagine that you find everything on those 9 pages of actions/opinions/interactions as neutral or town.In post 198, funkybike1 wrote:Yes, it was intentional to leave people out. Sleepless Assassin's last post moves him more towards the town end of the scale.
hiplop behavior is consistent, he feels natural, even in his "heavy gut case" on Rhinox. He is neutral for me.In post 197, Lastsurvivor wrote:General question: What does everyone think of hiplop?
While going through his ISO today, i noticed that he never commented on Malee or funkybike1.hiplop, what are you reads (or just thoughts) on them?-
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kortul Goon
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In post 232, hiplop wrote:hm.. its my impression that no one really has playstyles, they just post what comes to mind. I guess scum usually have one, however.hiplop, i had to read this several times, and still don't think that i understand you. Can you elaborate?
funkybike1, why do you answer some questions, and ignore other (like my questions from post 204)?
DDD, you are sitting on Nacho for some time already, does it mean that you still see him on cruise control?
As for the discussion topic - i took a look on Last Will Fafia III before replacing in here, and don't remember any strong buddying attempts there. With a last will mechanics in mind, i would find anybody trying to buddy me suspicious.
@mod- can you prod Vincent2128? He is active in other threads, but more than 3 days is absent here.-
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kortul Goon
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I have a feeling like i am falling behind a bit, even reading the thread several times a day when i have a break. I really hope to get a quiet evening when my wife and kid will leave me alone for an hour or so, and reread all the walls. Meanwhile, i have some comments and questions.
My view on funkybike1 is getting worse. Constant question dodging/ignoring, vague comments, town reads on many players, with no scum reads and no vote.funkybike1, if you are actually reading our posts, do some home work and answer the questions, left by several players all over the last several pages.
theomoaner, you say that you "always find votes with no explanation to be a little suspicious", applied that to Sleepless Assassin, but left behind two such votes of 4nxi3ty, who is null read for you. Also, you have several leaning scum reads, is no read strong enough to vote?
Last, are you sure you got that post right? I remember the different feeling from that post, so decided to dig it out:In post 277, Lastsurvivor wrote:The biggest problem I had with her is her out of place complimenting. In post #138, she says something vincent said was "very townish to say," even though, quite honestly, it was not very townish to say.
When i saw this post, i assumed she were talking about her next words, ie "That IS very townish FOR ME to say, but my post was genuine". I even didn't thought that it can be applied to a Vincent quote.In post 138, Malee wrote:In post 130, Vincent2128 wrote:This post feels fake to me (see #95 and #97 as well.)
That's very townish to say, but it was genuine. I thought nacho voted you, but even without that vote, he still skimmed. I wasn't paying attention enough, my bad.-
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kortul Goon
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Finally i had time at work to do analysis, make relevant ISOs and reassess my reads.
Lastsurvivor- town. Most of the time i agree with his logic, i really like the activity i see, and so far i have same scum reads. I don't agree with some of his town reads, but that is natural.
Fishythefish- leaning town. I have similar view on almost all of his scum reads, and i admire his valiant attempt to make a deep analysis of Rhinox vs hiplop, i don't see scum doing it on day 1.
Sleepless Assassin- neutral, leaning town. My read on him actually changed to a better side. It is more like overall impression, not that much to analyse yet, but i like those ISOs he did.
Rhinox- neutral, leaning town. I really like his emotions and thoughts in #54, he had good questions and comments in some of his farther posts, but then he went into a clinch with hiplop, for "the vote switch for the reasons given, and reads that aren't explained or supported by his iso". I actually see that vote switch as not a big deal, and reads changes are not extreme.
hiplop- neutral, slightly leaning town. He is a bit erratic, but feels natural. He is listening, adjusted his reads on SA, DDD, Nacho, yet is heavy locked on Rhinox for gut feeling and "trying pretty hard to paint me as scum". Some of the changes are instant, some gradual, like his read change on DDD:
218: "DDD feels independently scummy, some for his lurking, some for his actual posts."
272: "I used "maybe even DDD"...because my only thought on him is hes kinda lurky."
280: "DDD is based off of lurking. Its not a very strong tell. Very weak, infact."
320: "It was more of a case that i realized DDD was just lurking, so he moved up to null."
Nachomamma8- neutral. Not much of a presence, some posts i like, some points i agree with, some disagree.
Vincent2128- neutral, slightly leaning scum. Not much of a presence, too much of egocentricity, and i don't really understand his post 330 and unvote.
DDD- neutral, slightly leaning scum. Before ISO all i could remember on him was "sitting on Nacho", after ISO i can add "Amished-tell". Not much to analyse. I remember him being more all over the place, but he was an IC in that game.
4nxi3ty- slightly leaning scum. I don't agree with his thoughts, logic, and don't like votes without explanations, yet i know i cannot rely on his whole behavior (meta research, done in another game).
theomoaner- leaning scum. My read on this slot was the same, and i am not impressed with theomoaner so far to change it.
funkybike1- leaning scum. Said everything before, nothing changed.
Alicewondering- scum. There is no need to repeat the points of Lastsurvivor and Fishythefish, after going through ISO several times i come to conclusion that they are valid. I don't like inconsistencies in what she is saying and what is is doing:
In post 95, Alicewondering wrote:Why vote for someone you don't think is scum?
In post 311, Alicewondering wrote:- Scum tend to be rather wishy washy about their reads.
Your scumread (theomoaner) does 180 on you, and instead of questioning him you switch to someone, you are not even sure is scummy?In post 329, Alicewondering wrote:At the moment, I'm more interested in DDD. He's showed very little effort in scumhunting,which is not necessarily a scumtell, but it is weird to me how he tunneled Nacho for so long, especially considering his case wasn't that great. He hasn't posted much more about his scumreads, even when asked.
VOTE: DDD
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Alicewondering
theomoaner, can you explain your thought process behind your 180 on Alice? In one day you went from"Her posts feel like "the voice of reason". She seems to be analysing what others are posting and to try to help others think through their ideas (for example post 148). I can't see scum doing this."to a vote on her. I agree with the result, but don't understand the process yet.
I ignoredRhinox vs hiplopfor a time, because i was pretty sure this will die soon. Since this isn't the case, i think thatboth of you should take a break for a time, look around for other suspects, and reassess the reads on each other.-
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kortul Goon
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funkybike1, that's all you have to say after the week of absence? No own thoughts behind your first non-RVS vote, no answers to a previous questions?
Now my second and third scum reads are on the same wagon on my strongest scum read. Either this is an extreme case of bussing, or i am wrong about at least one of them. I will wait for the explanation fromtheomoanerto my question and the reaction and answers fromAlicewondering, before reassessing my reads and conclusions. I really doubt i will get input from funkybike1, since he is ignoring most of the questions. Actually, i will just meta him, maybe this is his usual behavior...-
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kortul Goon
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In post 362, Lastsurvivor wrote:Good catch on Theo's flip flopping Alice read. Theo, care to explain the flop?
I wonder, does anybody actually read my posts?In post 370, Nachomamma8 wrote:Theo's move to alice is absolutely horrid. I'm surprised someone hasn't noticed this already.
I was waiting for comments from Alice and explanations from theo, but Alice ignored this completely, and theo wasn't here to answer yet (missing for 3 days).In post 333, kortul wrote:Alicewondering-<...cut some quotes...>Your scumread (theomoaner) does 180 on you, and instead of questioning him you switch to someone, you are not even sure is scummy?
<...>
theomoaner, can you explain your thought process behind your 180 on Alice? In one day you went from"Her posts feel like "the voice of reason". She seems to be analysing what others are posting and to try to help others think through their ideas (for example post 148). I can't see scum doing this."to a vote on her. I agree with the result, but don't understand the process yet.
I don't see how admitting that points are valid makes Alicewondering less scummy now, but move from funkybike1 brought him closer to her, and theomoaner is there as well (at least until i will hear an explanation from him). Basicly now i see all three almost equally scummy, with Alice still leading, but remaining on the same wagon with funky AND theo feels so wrong, therefore:
UNVOTE:
VOTE: funkybike1-
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kortul Goon
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Hmm, i see two different opinions on a funky based on his meta, and both are from players, whom i trust so far. I should be able to check him today and form my own opinion, but since he has only 205 posts, it means a lot of data is lost in a crash, and the picture would be broken.
There is no rush after the announcement of LlamaFluff - we still have more than day and a half ahead before the deadline, so if theo comes back, we will have time to hear his explanations and claim, and if he is MIA, 3 more days should be enough to hear what his replacement will say. But this slot is already scummy after the Malee, and if we will have a replacement again my question about 180 on Alice would be without answer as well. Without such an explanation, i don't see me ever believing anyone in this slot to be town.
With theo at L-1 it is a good time to update the wills, funky may as well hammer after coming back.-
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kortul Goon
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Strange question. I gave my thoughts on Malee in a reads post 112 (which you obviously saw), do you think they magically changed after just one post from her? I asked some questions, but they remained unanswered since she left.In post 406, Macrophage wrote:At around 164 What exactly were your thoughts on Malee? Why did you not want to contribute them to discussion?
We already know what have happened in the game, and now we know your brief notes on some posts, but where are your conclusions?-
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kortul Goon
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It seems that only 4nxi3ty and Macrophage himself are not ready to lynch Macrophage. Well, we don't know the current opinion of Nacho, and future opinion of funky replacement, and SA is doubting but doesn't really object. That's actually a lot of hate as for a day 1, which is something new for my limited experience with forum mafia games, and i am suspicious of unusual things. Still, after the new ISO on Malee and theo i came to the same conclusions as before, and Macrophage posts didn't change my opinion, so i am ready to hammer closer to deadline.
I believe it would be better to wait for the funkybike1 replacement to arrive, to hear his reads and thoughts. And Nacho promised to be back to normal self.-
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kortul Goon
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Softclaim isn't enough for me, and i doubt anyone will say it satisfies him/her. Fishy already explained all the main points why you should make a full claim, and i would like to add that you should do it pretty soon. If we will decide to postpone the lynch at least until day 2, the sooner you will claim, the more time we will have to come to an agreement as to the alternative lynch.In post 468, Macrophage wrote:I want other opinions before claiming further.
We have a little more than 3 days to the deadline, so don't waste the precious time.-
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kortul Goon
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One day spent with a family, and almost three pages of discussions to read. My opinion on Nacho skyrocketed, he is consistent, logical, and looks at the problem from different angles. I agree with some of his conclusions, but will have to read the case on Lastsurvivor several times tomorrow, to see whether i will find his actions or intentions scummy. I don't like the fact that he lied about some things before, and admitted that only after extensive questioning from Nacho. Will have to figure out for myself, whether this comes from ego/pride or some scummy motives behind.
@SA - i left the Alice wagon because both funky and theo went there. Now their replacements went elsewhere, so i am back to my strongest suspicion.
@Macto - you have asked about why Malee and theo were scummy, and for comments on your defence.
Malee - first 4 posts were consistent, and then out of nowhere"But you never said, was your Vincent vote a serious vote? It just seemed very odd, even for a RVS.". Never before did she mention this while giving explanations, so this new twist was real inconsistent, like trying to make a case stronger. Once she realized that she made a mistake, she just dropped the whole thing. Also, not a single opinion about anybody else (i still believe that in 138 she were talking about her own words being townish).
theomoaner - within 3 relevant posts he managed to make a 180 on Alice and disappear after that, so explanations are lost.
As for your defence, my answer is simple - people do mistakes even when they are scum, otherwise it would be real hard to catch scum. I may be wrong about any of this small cases, but being wrong about both of them is less likely. So i still think the slot is scummy.
Macro, my overall impression about you personally is more positive. I actually like that you didn't jump immediately to a strongest counterwagon (LS). But i don't understand the opinion change on Voidedmafia - will have to reread tomorrow, but if you will explain it again it would be great.
I don't really understand why Alice and Fishy think that after the VT claim Macro is town. I mean, the fact that scum less likely to do a VT claim doesn't instantly make this claim town. If he claimed to be some PR, would you lynch him instead? I see possible PR hunting motives here, which makes me even more suspicious of Alice (and Fishy), at the same time it means that there's chance that i am wrong about Macro after all - PR hunting on a scumbuddy isn't exactly productive.
As for the DDD - my read didn't change, since he isn't exactly posting anything. Right now this would be the less informative flip for the lack of interactions.
It is more than 1 am here, and i am too tired to do any more reading and thinking, will do this with clear head some time tomorrow.-
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kortul Goon
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Just a quick check before going out with a family again, so extensive reading would be in the evening.
Nacho, you got me wrong, just read again. Of course i understand that Macro isn't PR hunting after such a claim. I suspect Alice and Fishy of PR hunting, since after the VT claim from Macro they are more interested in other wagons. All others who say that they believe the claim weren't interested or pushing Macro wagon.In post 562, Nachomamma8 wrote:kortul wrote:I don't really understand why Alice and Fishy think that after the VT claim Macro is town. I mean, the fact that scum less likely to do a VT claim doesn't instantly make this claim town. If he claimed to be some PR, would you lynch him instead? I see possible PR hunting motives here, which makes me even more suspicious of Alice (and Fishy), at the same time it means that there's chance that i am wrong about Macro after all - PR hunting on a scumbuddy isn't exactly productive.
Macrophage held the belief that a VT claim was going to equal certain death, as you can tell by the way he claimed. So, claiming non-VT was clearly a move of survival. As scum, once he had already laid that claim down, there was no reason to rescind on it at all. If he were PR hunting, then he might as well claim a specific PR, or else it would be useless. The only reason he would rescind that claim is if he didn't want to be counterclaimed, and scum who were pretty certain they were gonna die really don't give a shit about being counterclaimed.
Alice, Fishy, what would you do if Macro actually claimed to have some PR? Keep the heat on him, or go elsewhere?-
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*sigh* Rereading completed. Writing my conclusions right now will take at least half an hour, and i am not doing it at 1 am. Will do it tomorrow morning at work. Meanwhile i do hope thatAliceandFishywill answer my previous question. AndMacro, can you elaborate more why and when Voided went from scum to town in your eyes? My decision may be affected by those answers, that's why i don't want to place my vote.-
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Hell, before going to sleep i thought that i knew where my vote goes, to Macro. And in the morning i see the twist i didn't expect. I hate to make a choice under time pressure, when players are doing things that don't fit my read on them. Ok, my opinion on three current wagons.
Macrophage. Even though i mostly like his behaviour (except for the Voided opinion change), i still think the slot is scummy, because of Malee/theo. That drives me crazy, since several years playing RL mafia don't teach how to deal with replacements. Answers from a Fishy and Alice didn't shift my read as well.
Lastsurvivor. For a long time this was my strongest town read. I had some doubts after his switch from Alice - i still don't see why admitting that points are valid makes Alicewondering less scummy. And here comes a case from Nacho. It shed new light on that Alice switch, and brought into focus some older things, but i still wasn't convinced that Last is scum after rereading. His answer to my question was good and consistent with my read on him.
And in the morning i see that after Macro voted him, and agreed "with 4n's point that your recent posts are all about defending yourself and I see little effort to work out who's scum.", Last unvotes Macro and goes after DDD. What posts 565 and 560 have to do with such decision i don't understand. I see an attempt to appease Macro and at the same time switch to a more easy target atm, this move doesn't fit my town picture of Last at all, therefore Last is on a scummy side as well now.
Debonair Danny DiPietro. As i told before, his general behaviour is the same as i remember in our game lost in the crash, but he is less active and demanding, so i suspect him a bit. Because he is absent, i think that if we lynch him now it would be more like a policy lynch, since he cannot claim, give his reads, defend, change his last will, and has less interactions then any other player in the game. Still, taking into account the deadline, this a valid lynch for me.
All three are scummy for completely different reasons, and voting each other in a circle. In other words, i am lost. Logically, lynch of Macro or Last gives us more information. Cynically, lynch of DDD gives less information but leaves in the game two more active players. I can't chose between my scum reads, but i trust my town read, and will just follow Nacho.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lastsurvivor
I will be able to check the forum for another 11-12 hours or so, hope the final decision will be made before. AndLastsurvivor is at L-1now, so give him a chance to return and speak.-
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Friday 13 was tough. Will clear my head on weekend from all the work, finish the research in another game and reassess my reads. I did a quick skimming of today posts, and have two quick questions.
Rhinox, can you give your thoughts behind the scumread on DDD, if you will find some time or after the weekend? Though, if you already did it on day 1, i will see that during rereading.
DDD, your Macro case is based on a tell. Can you explain thelogicbehind it, and why you believe it is reliable. Can you link to some successful examples of Amished-tell? If you expect us to consider the case, we have to understand why it works.-
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With last will mechanics in mind from now on i will list my town reads in random order, not really telling how strong the top ones are.
Rhinox and Fishythefish - leaning town. There was a moment i began to question my read on Fishy, but his answer was ok.
Sleepless Assassin - slightly leaning town. Overall impression. He is consistent, and digging in his own direction.
hiplop - slightly leaning town. He still feels natural, his day 2 vote is consistent, and he wasn't afread to hammer LS. Not much of a presence though for a second half of the game.
Voidedmafia - slightly leaning town. I didn't like Vincent, so this read change is mostly based on his active and consistent stance on Macro. He isn't just sitting there, he is doing something.
4nxi3ty - middle ground. I didn't agree with his logic and thoughts day 1, but i actually like his input on day 2, find the questions he is asking and comments good and relevant, though i don't understand his latest "idea throwing".
DCLXVI - slightly leaning scum. I was suspicious of funky, and have mixed feelings on DCL. He seems to be active, consistent and logical, which i like, though was focused almost only on LS and i really didn't get some of his conclusions from VCA. Also, i do not agree with his view that "wagons on Theo and Macro were based mostly off of the wagon on Malee" - theo is equally (if not more) tainted the slot.
Alice - leaning scum. I still don't like her behaviour during day 1, unvote (and the explanation) after the VT claim from Macro. But i am not as convinced as on day 1 - if she indeed is working on building townreads, some of her actions make sense, and she started Day 2 with a really good question to DDD.
Macrophage - leaning scum. Slot is scummy, and the explanations on both read changes on Voided are borderline, taking into account the moments they were done.
DDD - leaning scum. My impression from the previous day is only getting worse. He become more active today, but most of this activity is criticizing, he is sitting on Macro based on Amished tell from theo, and his reads look like inverted version from funky (ie almost everyone is scummy for him).
VOTE: Macrophage
Macro, what you don't like about Rhinox reasoning for voting DDD? Why not argue those points, to either understand them and improve your read on both Rhinox and DDD, or to prove they are bad?
I have some other questions/comments, will make a separate post.-
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In post 655, Sleepless Assassin wrote:Vote 4n
Not a lot has changed since Day 1. Lastlynch was as terrible as it was before it happened. Macrolynch is almost as bad. DDD, DCL, and 4n are still the scums.SA, any particular reason to concentrate only on 4nxi3ty? I can see you working to improve your read, but do you have questions for your other scumreads?
In post 665, Alicewondering wrote:I'm going to hold off on a Macro vote at least for today.Alice, what do you mean by hold off? From your posts i got an impression that you finally believed the VT claim.
@4nxi3ty- what are your thoughts behind the idea?
Macro wagon was in much better shape yesterday, so to keep it rolling today just sitting there isn't enough.hiplop, DDD, if it isn't just a parking place for you, question him, question your other suspects.
@DDD- is Amished tell on theo the only reason for your vote on Macro?
@DCLXVI- so what are your thoughts and suspects after the re-read?-
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Macro, your Voided read changes were too convenient at the moment they were done. I don't say this is a 100% scumtell just because these read changes are so careless, that any competent scum would avoid them. Still they leave bad taste in the mouth, and discussing this farther is just WIFOM.
And you are asking me not to vote you and believe you are town, but ignore the question i asked you in a post 697.-
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In post 665, Alicewondering wrote:I'm going to hold off on a Macro vote at least for today.
You found an obscure way to say so, my interpretation wasn't even close.In post 701, Alicewondering wrote:In post 698, kortul wrote:Alice, what do you mean by hold off? From your posts i got an impression that you finally believed the VT claim.
I do believe the VT claim, but I noticed a bunch of people voting Macro, and I don't think that he should be the lynch.
As for the Rhynox-DDD argument about taking into consideration the opinions of the dead players, i have a middle view. Their cases and opinions may be, and in some cases should be used as a starting point during the beginning of the next day, but the more the game progresses the more outdated those opinions are. It is like a snapshot of an opinion, good as long as we are close to the moment when it was taken.-
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His own explanation was different.In post 716, Alicewondering wrote:Kortul, what do you think about the possibility of a replacement replacing in and skimming the game quickly to form quick reads. Do you not think a quick read change would make sense in this case?
First one was when you were at L-1 and claiming, so it could be done to lessen the pressure. Second one was at the beginning of Day 2, with Voided already voting you, so maintaining townread on him no longer needed. So if you are scum those changes were convenient for you. I won't speculate farther, since discussion can go forever with actually leading anywhere. And yes, i can see the scenario where you are town suffering from a mess from predecessors, and your read changes have logical town explanations, but the reasons you said are different so far, and only your farther actions can tilt the scales of my read in other direction (or someone will become more scummy).In post 713, Macrophage wrote:@Kortul: How were they convenient? And don't you think the solution should be that I'm neither competent nor incompetent scum?-
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I already answered that in 719.In post 724, Macrophage wrote:Does anyone actually have any basis for thinking my read changes were convenient/scummy/whatever? (Except for me attempting to buddy voided into changing his read of me, because that's just stupid. I even joked about it... [refrains from swearing]) Answers from DCL, hiplop and kortul are needed.
Hmm, that's an interesting alignment i have now - "could be night-killed". What does it mean?In post 724, Macrophage wrote:So there are likely three townies that are likely going to keep wanting to lynch me throughout. DCL maybe no and kortul could be night-killed
I answered that as well:In post 724, Macrophage wrote:@Kortul/hiplop/voided/debonair/DCL: Are you likely to continue seeing what I post as scummy or do you think you could come to see me as town?In post 719, kortul wrote:And yes, i can see the scenario where you are town suffering from a mess from predecessors, and your read changes have logical town explanations, but the reasons you said are different so far, and onlyyour farther actions can tilt the scales of my read in other direction(or someone will become more scummy).
While you are defending you are helping only yourself, both scum and town do this, how do you expect us to get a better read on you? Nacho explained it perfectly yesterday:
In post 566, Nachomamma8 wrote:Stop worrying about getting lynched. If you do, it's not the end of the world.Help us find scumand fuck everything else.-
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In post 748, DCLXVI wrote:-PR claim then VT claim, the temptation to bang my head against a wall for letting myself get tricked into thinking macro was town for that is very strongDCLXVI, i don't remember you commenting on Macro claim earlier, but this post implies you believed the claim before. What are the reasons for your opinion change (not on Macro himself, but on his claim)?
In post 756, Macrophage wrote:@Sleepless: I can do a "why I think 4nxi3ty is town" case if you like. Just let me know.Macrophage, actually, i am interested. Can you do it for me? It might help to understand both of you better.-
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DCLXVI, i did an ISO looking for your previous opinion on Macro claim, and realized that the only time you gave your reads was when you talked about first impressions. Can you give your current opinion? For obvious reasons town reads shouldn't have any particular order.
I am also interested in the reads fromAlicewondering,4nxi3tyandhiplop. We criticized DDD that his list allows him to vote on anyone, but the absence of reads provides the same opportunity. The game progressed well enough to form at least some opinions or impressions.-
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Well, "struggling to read him" is close enough, so yes, i would like to hear your thoughts.In post 769, Macrophage wrote:@Kortul: If it's only for a read of me, I'd rather not say why I think 4nx is town. If you think he's scum or are struggling to read him, I can if you want.-
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@Macro- thank you for the explanation. I can't say that your thoughts on why 4nxi3ty is town helped me to read him much better, but there was one point that i missed earlier. At the same time i came to conclusion that i was wrong assuming that i can reliably understand your logic.
@hiplop, you are becoming more active, it seems - what are your thoughts on other players?
@DCLXVI, can you answer my question in post 762?
@Alice- i also suspected funky, and not because of lurking. What "other evidence" do you mean? Also, can you tell your current reads, and why do you like an SA vote?-
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My read on him slowly shifting to the town side, but that's more of a general feeling and the fact that on day 2 i can actually understand his logic and like some of his questions and comments. It may be somewhat affected by the other game we are in right now, that is near the end, but until it is finished i can't be entirely certain how reliable is my understanding of 4nx as a player.In post 791, Sleepless Assassin wrote:Kort, what exactly is your read on 4n?
@Fishy - do you see Macro case as a separate case from Malee and theo? Ie does Macro or his slot look town for you? Because it isn't Macro himself but his predeccesors are the main reason why i see this slot scummy.
@Macro - your quote isn't complete. My understanding of DDD logic in his post is this: you know that VT should claim VT, yet your initial claim was different, explanation was just "i'm vanilla", therefore you are scum. I don't see things the same way, and actually don't understand both those who strongly believe that your claim is scum tell, and those who strongly believe that your claim is town tell.
Can you explain why are you "starting doubt 4nx townread"?-
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I had trouble understanding (and therefore reading) him day 1, today i find him more logical, therefore he is slightly leaning town for me now. I don't rely on his general behavior after last month meta research, only on logic/interactions/votes. For example, I liked ISO 34, and agreed with:In post 805, Sleepless Assassin wrote:Kort, can you be more specific with examples regarding your 4n read? What logic, questions, and comments did you like from him and why?In post 653, 4nxi3ty wrote:it is too early for wagon analysis, you need at least one scumflip. I have to agree that I don't really like DDD's wide range negative attack on everyone.
In ISO 35 i understood logic in his answers to ISO 7 and ISO 8, and notation scum!Danny reminded me of the times when i was programmer. I liked questions/comments in ISO 36, good questions in ISO 39.-
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Fishy is back and kicking, after he voted DDD his wagon skyrocketed to L-1 in less then a day, but that's more because of last will mechanics, since Fishy + Rhinox together weigh 4 votes.
@SA - guess your question isn't for me either, DCL is still on a scummy side for me.
Speaking of DCL, i still want to hear the answers to my questions in 762/766.-
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I actually agree that this post of Macro doesn't feel like coming from scum, but i can't say the same about your switch to DDD. You casually mentioned him like twice today, said nothing bad on Day 1, so what prompted you to vote him now? Give your opinion at least.In post 860, DCLXVI wrote:...my head says macro is scum, my gut says he is town...dang it I'm going with my gut on this, I'm getting cold feet about lynching macro, this post doesn't feel like scum:
unvote:macro
Vote:DDD
Where are the reads you promised like two weeks ago? You never answered my question on your case about Macro. While i disagreed with some of your points on day 1, i liked you general activity and logical thoughts, but today you are a shadow of yourself. I waited since you were V/LA, but after your return you are active all over the forum but not here. I do want to hear your thoughts and answers.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: DCLXVI-
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When i went to sleep there was no unvote from Macro yet. And when the next day i checked the forum, you already switched. Also, that post didn't make Macro town, i just view him as less scummy now.In post 872, DCLXVI wrote:In post 865, kortul wrote:I actually agree that this post of Macro doesn't feel like coming from scum,
Then why was your vote still on him until you swapped over to me?
So, DDD is scum for you because most people on his wagon are town for you. Without you mentioning your thoughts on what's going on, how we should guess this? Rhinox is town for you since day 1; SA was for you on scummy side yesterday and you didn't mention him today; fishy for you was "scumbuddy of LS" yesterday, and you didn't mention him Day 2 until this post. When/why did fishy become town for you? Rhinox today said that the reads from DDD set him up "to be able to vote just about anyone", and i fully agree with this, but your absence of reads/thoughts allows you the same opportunity.In post 867, DCLXVI wrote:The people I'm leaning town on are rhinox, fishy and macro
Scum, DDD most of the people on his wagon are town I think so I am sheeping them by being on it. not sure about 4nxi3ty either but I can't back that up. Otherwise I have no idea about anyone's alignment despite having read through the thread twice now. Which takes forever with how long it is.
And i would like to hear your answer to my question, it may help me to understand you better:In post 762, kortul wrote:In post 748, DCLXVI wrote:-PR claim then VT claim, the temptation to bang my head against a wall for letting myself get tricked into thinking macro was town for that is very strongDCLXVI, i don't remember you commenting on Macro claim earlier, but this post implies you believed the claim before. What are the reasons for your opinion change (not on Macro himself, but on his claim)?
P.S. Macro, may i ask you what is your gender? Hope i am not rude, i am just confused sometimes by your behavior, and that may influence my read.-
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I took a close look at Macro case against DCLXVI, and one of his points prompted me to check something.
In post 484, DCLXVI wrote:-One thing that makes me hesitant about calling macro scum because the players he replaced didn't play well is thatif I had been another player in the game, I would have definitely found funkybike's actions scummy...yet I now know he wasn't scum... I other words, I'm open to the possibility that the people macro replaced just sucked, as opposed to being scum.
In post 536, DCLXVI wrote:Funkybike:This is more of a lurker hunt as opposed to scumhunt.If I had not replaced for Funky I think a lynch on him would be justified.DDD- are those the examples of Amished tell? If yes, did you miss it during reread? If no, what is the difference from Macro case? I still not sure that i understand this tell correctly, and i don't believe in it without firsthand examples, but this fits your explanation.-
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I am at vacation for a week, but hopefully will have access to internet at least in the evenings.
@Macro - some of you actions and reactions are strange to me, in real life i saw them either from a females, or very emotional people. Guess you are emotional then. I am still trying to figure out how to read your actions.
@DDD - as to the context, this were first impressions after the initial reread, without questions asked, and amished-tell was already explained before, so most likely he was aware that it exists. What would be your answer now?
@DCLXVI - disappearing isn't an answer to questions.-
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Hmm, did you finish the reread? This is DCLXVI latest version:In post 901, Magua wrote:DCL: Fishy scumread, Rhinox townread, Macro townread, null on DDD
In post 867, DCLXVI wrote:The people I'm leaning town on are rhinox, fishy and macro
Scum, DDD most of the people on his wagon are town I think so I am sheeping them by being on it. not sure about 4nxi3ty either but I can't back that up. Otherwise I have no idea about anyone's alignment despite having read through the thread twice now. Which takes forever with how long it is.-
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In post 896, Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:Preview-Edited: Holding off a claim at 4nxiety’s request.
Rhinox already posted, so holding off claim any longer is bad, DDD.In post 895, 4nxi3ty wrote:would like to see a post from rhinox before any sort've claiming/hammering happens.
I really don't like today behavior and ignoring certain questions from DCL (still waiting for answers), but two votes ins't a pressure at all. I am back to Macro and content with lynching him, or hammering DDD on deadline if Macro wagon would be stuck.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Macrophage-
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I am back from my vacation, but still need a free evening to gather my thoughts and then to do ISOs on my suspects. Hopefully it will be today or tomorrow.
@Magua- have you completed the reread already? Are your thoughts today based on it, or just on the last events?
I don't agree that DCLXVI was the main counterwagon, it was the last counterwagon. For a long time it was DDD, after his claim the focus shifted (after post 928 and vote from fishy) to 4nx, who also claimed in advance, and only then DCL started rolling. If DDD or 4nx would be VT, chances are they would be lynched. Still, DCLXVIwasL-1 counterwagon, just with fewer people thanks to a lastwill mechanics, so the main question is how likely that everyone there except Macro were town. I have to think more on this after ISOs.
DCLXVI, can you help me with the following? I am confused by your "Just to be clear, I don't intend on voting macro or DDD wagons just to save myself from getting lynched as I think they are town." If you are town, you definitely know only your own alignment, so why sacrifice yourself for someone else? I don't see any scum motivation here, just don't understand the mindset, can you explain your thoughts?-
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Still too much work after the vacation to finish the analysis. So just a quick answer to rhinox/fishy "accusations".
For me vote isn’t an idol, but a working tool. I use it to grab an attention, apply pressure, make a statement, choose a lynch near deadline. I place it where I feel it is needed at the moment. Other tools are observations, questions. If I am sitting on someone for a long time, it means that other tools suffice, my vote isn’t needed somewhere else and this player is my main suspect atm. In all other cases I explain why I vote for someone, ask a question with a vote, or make a case. So look at the context of my votes, not statistics.
Don’t have time to do an ISO on myself, from memory during the day 1 Malee replaced and theo disappeared after I asked them questions, so voting them to catch an attention was useless, I used my tool elsewhere. Macro was all the time at L-2 or L-1, was answering questions willingly, and he wasn’t my main or only suspect, so no additional pressure was needed there, and I am always against ending the day earlier.
Post 141 – asking for thoughts and reads is a coaching now? I asked the very same thing half of the players through the course of this game.
Rhinox, don’t tell me about voting town reads near deadline, just look at yourself and fishy. I didn’t blindly jumped on LS, it took me more than a day to reassess the cases on him and whether I still believe him. LS was my town read for most of the day 1, our thoughts on who is suspicious were the same, he was actively searching. I had some doubts after his switch from Alice and said so, and after Nacho interrogation I found out, that LS lied about some things, and my doubts increased. The last blow to my read was his switch from Macro after Macro voted him – it didn’t fit my picture of LS town at all, especially the explanations. Since it was a day before the deadline, and all three wagons were on those whom I suspect, I decided to follow Nacho, who seemed to have a better picture of what is going on.
And forgive my ignorance, I wasn’t aware that courtesy is frown upon on this forum. If I suspect someone in a game, he/she is still a human being, and i talk the same way as I do in real life. I asked Macroto dosomething, he did, so I thanked him.
Fishy, you are strawmanning here, what Macro has to do with this comment? He was already sitting on DDD at that moment. Why i made this post? I express my thoughts/feelings/concerns all the time, and this caught my attention - the first time i saw lastwill mechanics in action (your wild jumps to 4nx and DCL are pretty good examples as well).In post 1019, Fishythefish wrote:In post 848, kortul wrote:Fishy is back and kicking, after he voted DDD his wagon skyrocketed to L-1 in less then a day, but that's more because of last will mechanics, since Fishy + Rhinox together weigh 4 votes.
I wonder if this is kortul telling Macro to hammer? I really don't know why kortul would make this post otherwise. It's the only bit of "commentary" I can find in his ISO.-
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In post 1023, Fishythefish wrote:About LS - the problem isn't voting a townread to get a deadline lynch. The problem is voting a townreadover a scumreadat deadline when both are viable lynches - from absolutely everything you'd said in the game that point, I'd have expected you to vote Macro rather than LS at that point.
I explained it twice already, but will try to remember my thoughts and emotions at that time. And "the entire game" at that moment was equal "more than a half of day 1", without any flips, so all the reads were based on feelings, whether i agree or disagree with someone logic, and the activity.In post 1025, DCLXVI wrote:I do not see why kortul would have chosen to vote someone who had been a townread nearly the entire game over a slot he had considered scummy.
1) At that moment i suspected Macro slot because of Malee/funky, but actually liked the game of Macro, except for a single opinion change on Voided.
2) I was impressed by Nacho, who came in and with a help of logic and careful questions revealed that LS lied about the reasons of his switch from Alice. Nacho become my strong town read, while LS moved to null - i didn't understand why he lied about vote switch, especially from Alice, who still was my main scumread.
3) Before i went to sleep i saw an answer from LS, that Macro claim didn't affect his read on Macro. In the morning i found out, that several posts and 2 hours later LS switched Macro to DDD, after Macro voted LS. I didn't understand the explanation at all, so came to conclusion that LS is simply trying to push DDD wagon, since Macro wagon was stuck, at the same time trying to appease Macro. My read on LS changed from null to leaning scum.
4) So when i made a choice,all wagonswere on players who were leaning scum for me, just for different reasons. With less then a day before a deadline, i felt that Nacho has more understanding of what is going on, so decided to follow him, and voted LS. I checked several times to see whether Nacho changed his mind and switched, but there were nothing from him.
That's all i have to say on this, and if you still think that my intentions were scummy, so be it, i would rather devote my time for scumhunting, not explaining the same thing over and over.
I agree that it's not the same. You put your town read to L-1. I put my scum read to L-1. You made a correct choice after that, but that doesn't amend your previous votes.In post 1024, Rhinox wrote:Where was my vote at deadline? oh right. hammering macro. Don't even try to compare my vote on DCLX with your vote on LS, because its not the same at all.
DCL, we are not in a newbie game or near the deadline, if someone wants to hammer me, he will ask for a claim. Why are you so interested?-
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I was wrong about my free time after the vacation, and underestimated the amount of careful reading needed for any serious analysis. So until i find that time, i will settle for something more simple, taking into account that we have a scum flip now. All my thoughts are based on assumption that we have 3 scum in the setup (4 seems too much). I still lack forum experience, so will rely on my knowledge of RL games as well, since scum motives and general tells should be similar anyway, and moreso when the deadline is near (scum under time pressure tend to do more slips).
I'll start with stats and thoughts on wagons. DCLXVI, Magua/Alicewondering both were present on LS lynch, but absent from Macro lynch. They automatically enter my scum pool. Voided, DDD and rhinox were absent from LS lynch, but present on Macro lynch, they go into my town pool, but more on rhinox later. hiplop was on both wagons, but he hammered LS to avoid no-lynch, so goes into my town pool as well. SA and fish were absent from both wagons, but SA was much more consistent than fishy on days 1 and 2, so he goes into my town pool, and fishy to a scum pool.
Now, back to rhinox. During day 3 i got an impression that he believes that his hammer on Macro removes any suspicions from him, i find this reaction strange. I reassessed possible scenarios, and see two cases where he is scum (ie he is conditional scum for me). First case is DCL scum - after DDD and 4nx become invalid lynch targets and DCL wagon started rolling rhinox scum had to join it, waited for his partner claim, and then decided which sacrifice would benefit scum most. Second case is DCL town, and fishy scum - rhinox scum joined the wagon, but after the claim decided that 3 scum on the same wagon is too much and had to switch. So while he is in my town pool, when doing ISO on DCL and fishy i will watch for possible connections with rhinox.
After ISO on Macro and from what i remember on previous days events Fishy and Magua/Alice fit much better to be partners with Macro, but i don't see the Fishy-Magua scumteam at all. Moreover, Magua-DCL (and moreso Magua-rhinox) teams aren't likely for me, so if Magua is scum, third scum isn't among my suspects. Right now Fishy is more suspicious for me than Magua or DCL, will reasses after i will finally have time.
VOTE: Fishythefish
I think that equivocating/not taking stances/not having reads is correct description for Fishy play in this game, and even today it was true before Magua called him on this - after that me and Magua are his firm scum reads. What i find even more strange now, that while his scumreads were weak, his town read on Macro was strong enough to defend it. His defense of himself by giving a list of meta examples that his scum play is different is rather meh, since if the playstile changes are obvious, and he is aware of the difference, he can play against this meta whenever he likes. But such a playstile allows activity that i see from him for two days already - claim hunthing. During day 1 Fishy was following LS, but all those wagons died except for Macro. Next day was more productive, since he got 2-3 claims under the belt until the day ended (depending whether DCL is scum or not). Today he found two new targets.-
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In post 1074, Rhinox wrote:Yeah here we go in [post]353[/post]LS unvotes alice and votes funky. You are saying now and when you voted that is when you started doubting your LS read and moved him to null. But you didn't say anything then.In fact, in [post]371[/post] you moved your vote right on to funky from alice as well. That is not consistent with the belief that LS moving away from alice made you suspect him.
You are actively twisting my words and factual information. My LS read moved to nul after Nacho revealed that LS lied about the switch, and that happened long after the switch itself. And post 371 was my first post after LS unvoted alice. Did you read it carefully?
I'll quote the relevant parts:
In post 1031, kortul wrote:2)I was impressed by Nacho, who came in and with a help of logic and careful questions revealed that LS lied about the reasons of his switch from Alice. Nacho become my strong town read, while LS moved to null- i didn't understand why he lied about vote switch, especially from Alice, who still was my main scumread.
In post 371, kortul wrote:I don't see how admitting that points are valid makes Alicewondering less scummy now, but move from funkybike1 brought him closer to her, and theomoaner is there as well (at least until i will hear an explanation from him). Basicly now i see all three almost equally scummy, with Alice still leading, but remaining on the same wagon with funky AND theo feels so wrong, therefore:
UNVOTE:
VOTE: funkybike1-
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Those scenarios are dumb if you plan in advance. With 8 hours to deadline, seeing 2 wagons halted by claims, they are not dumb. You even said in the very same post that you panicked, though explanation for this reaction is beyond me. If you are town you shouldn't be worrying and panicking because of connections with those who are lynched, you should be worrying who is more likely to be scum.In post 1074, Rhinox wrote:Both scenarios are dumb. If I'm scum with DCL and macro, I did not have to join the DCL wagon, and I did not need a claim from DCL to decide which lynch would be more beneficial to me-scum. Second scenario I would see BEFORE placing my vote on DCL that 3 scum on the same wagon was too much if that is what I would have been thinking.
In post 1074, Rhinox wrote:If it helps people understanding my thinking at the end of the day yesterday, I heard people suggesting me as a scum partner to DCL andI think I got a little spooked.I started thinking what if I was wrong about funky/DCL all along, and I was worried if macro got lynched and was town, then DCL would probably be next, and if DCL was scum I could be mislynched for whatever connection ppl were seeing after that at a bad time if not lylo still very late in the game where mislynches hurt more. I looked at the wagons, I saw people I have called or suspected as scum all game (at the time) on the macro wagon, and I saw town reads (again, at the time) on the DCL wagon.So I panicedand voted DCL.-
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kortul Goon
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@Voided - i think that town should worry about making a bad judgement call. I don't see why would anyone panic because someone who they think is town may flip scum one day, unless they definitely know the result of future flip. Still, that's my experience from several years of RL games, so it may be wrong in a long forum game, in that case i am interested in a better description behind such panic. Maybe i will understand Rhinox logic and vote better then, or understand why he/Fishy/DCL all of sudden suspect me because i didn't land my vote on everyone whom i suspected.
@Rhinox - finally you come to the same conclusion as i wrote before - i do not have a goal to lynch you, you are in my town pool, with a possibility of being a conditional scum if DCL or fishy will flip a scum. And if you were carefully reading through my ISO, you would notice that my LS read didn't change in one moment, though apparently you were just skimming.-
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kortul Goon
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@Rhinox - I didn't understand the reasons for LS switch from Alice and said so, but since i had my own reasons for a switch at that time, i didn't gave too much thought to this matter. You are correct about 548 - that was the time when i saw the Nacho interrogation and the results, and my opinion on LS dropped to null. After that i started rereading, and near the end of it asked LS about his opinion on Macro claim, he answered that it hadn't influenced his read. In the morning i found out, that 2 hours later, after the Macro voted him, LS changes his opinion on Macro, and i still read the post 599 as an attempt to appease Macro.
A quick answer.In post 1088, Fishythefish wrote:In post 1073, kortul wrote:VOTE: Fishythefish
I think that equivocating/not taking stances/not having reads is correct description for Fishy play in this game, and even today it was true before Magua called him on this - after that me and Magua are his firm scum reads. What i find even more strange now, that while his scumreads were weak, his town read on Macro was strong enough to defend it. His defense of himself by giving a list of meta examples that his scum play is different is rather meh, since if the playstile changes are obvious, and he is aware of the difference, he can play against this meta whenever he likes. But such a playstile allows activity that i see from him for two days already - claim hunthing. During day 1 Fishy was following LS, but all those wagons died except for Macro. Next day was more productive, since he got 2-3 claims under the belt until the day ended (depending whether DCL is scum or not). Today he found two new targets.
A few questions/comments on this:
1) What exactly do you mean by equivocating/not taking stances/not having reads? I think I've taken quite a lot of stances throughout the game. If you mean that my reads haven't been that strong, and have changed quite a lot, then that's not too far wrong.
2a) Whatever your answer to 1), why is that a scumtell? As in, why do scum do it, and why aren't I just town whose scumreads haven't been that strong?
2b) You seem to think my play today, specifically, is scummy. I think I spent a few days catching up - and saying I was - and then started posting good content that took firm positions. Do you disagree with that assessment? Why is my play today likely to come from scum?
3) What's the contradiction between having weak scumreads and strong townreads? That's where I've been all game, and I don't see why it's unlikely or scummy at all. I find it much more common for people to do things that scum wouldn't do than things that town wouldn't do.
4) On meta: I only gave a meta defence because Magua's attack is entirelya meta attack- check out his posting on me. I've never asked anyone else to look at that meta, although if they do I certainly won't complain. What should I have done when Magua said "X is a meta scumtell for you" and I know that to be completely false?
5) So, you think I'm scum who wagons people for claims? Scum's main activities (IMO) are a) trying to look town and b) trying to lynch townies. How important do you think getting claims is compared to those? Imagine yourself as scum. Would "getting claims out of townies" ever be the principle that dictated your entire strategy?
6) A minor point, but if you check your D1 facts you'll find I did hop around a lot, but a lot of the time the wagons followed me rather than the other way round (IIRC on Rhinox, Malee and one other I was leading or early on the wagon). Characterising me as wagoning scum (or wagoning town) isn't accurate for a lot of the wagons I was on, so your picture of claim hunting scum doesn't fit that well.
1)I remember you giving reads only once or twice during the first two days, and flip-flopping a lot.
2a) Did i tell it to be a scumtell? I said that it allows you to perform claim hunting, and that is a scumtell for me.
2b) Today your style is changing, but even when you voted me, your opinion on me was "Nothing kortul says is particularly scummy.", and you picked some commentary that later admitted to be not scummy. Your opinion on Magua was "I don't have many strong feelings about this slot". And once Magua called you on not taking stances and having firm reads, you said your scum reads are strong.
3) Again, did i tell it to be a contradiction? Just now looking back, i find it strange that Macro town read was strong enough to defend it, but scum reads were not strong enough to stick to them or pressure them.
4) Hmm, i'll check Magua and your posts again, i was writing from memory and thought his suspicions were mostly based on you being the experienced mafiascum player. Still, i remember that you posted several links pointing that your town and scum plays are different, so if such a difference exists, you can easily play around it. For experienced players tells based on meta are not reliable, that's why meta defense isn't reliable either. I just explained why i don't take your meta defense into consideration, but at the same time i don't take into consideration meta scumtells either.
5) I am relying on my RL experience, where finding power roles earlier is important for scum survival. Lastwill mechanics means that votes stay in the game, so i doubt scum would be happy to find too many conftown at the end of the game. And Macro flip wasOne shotvanilla cop, which means that scum is limited in a ways of finding who is dangerous for them.
6) Maybe i am wrong on this one, i don't remember exact vote order. But claim hunting can be done with starting wagons as well, though it is usually less productive.-
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kortul Goon
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Back. Hmm, this time i actually agree with fishy on the request to postpone a lynch. My personal opinion is that quick lynches are bad for town - most of the time they are not based on logic, but on gut/emotions/scum motives/join the crowd/etc. We are not near the deadline, why not give SA another day he is asking for? If he would be lynched anyway, we will either get more info to analyze if he is scum, or will know his thoughts more clearly if he is town.
I didn't plan to analyze SA today, but now will do an ISO on weekend to reassess my read.-
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kortul Goon
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I managed to finish an ISO on SA, mulled over it and still don't see him as scum. During days 1 and 2 he was consistent, his thought process isn't orthodox and that helps to take a look at the events from different angle, and i agreed with some of his thoughts. I don't like his play today, but it is not scummy by itself, and his list of suspects is close enough to mine. I doubt someone will be swayed by my reasons, but at least consider them, and wait for SA to finish his thoughts.
Meanwhile i will concentrate on my suspects. Magua play is active and consistent, i like the reaction of Fishy to SA wagon and don't like the DCL reaction, so my next ISOs will be on DCL and Fishy.-
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kortul Goon
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This evening i finally managed to find time to do thorough ISO on Fishy. I remembered what i thought was strange in Fishy defense post on Macro - at that moment Macro wasn't his strong townread, in the post "Macro generally looks town." There were some comments in other posts that felt out of place, but maybe i am just biased. I still don't like that claimhunting activity. But no one else commented on this, so i will ponder whether this tell applies to forum scumhunting, with lastwill mechanics in mind.
On the other hand his advice to 4nx in post 933 is good, and i doubt that first reaction of scum to mason claim would be giving such an advice. Also, i agree with his reaction to SA today.
I don't see SA as scum, and i am less sure of Fishy scum, so DCL being town because of counterwagon on him is less logical now, which brings him back as my main suspect. I don't like his play on Days 2 and 3, and will do his ISO next.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: DCLXVI-
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kortul Goon
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