Fallout Mafia - Commonwealth Edition (Day 8)

[Ouroboros]

'equal credence'

Aka I should be completely ignored because I

might be scum

[Ouroboros]

@OTM

Would you action precede a hider's action?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

*your

[Ouroboros]

Whether Davesaz is or isn't scum there's a lot more info on that flip that will come over time, there's no reason we have to Lynch them today and then find out later that there's a doctor.

Your role also absolutely does not preclude a doc, it probably indicates the existence of a strongman though.

Maybe scum just didn't burn their strongman D1

[Ouroboros]

:thinks:

Hmm...

I like the idea of a strong role blocker targeting the Hider and then - using Bear's PoE of Vigilante versus hider - having Bear kill that slot, since I don't think the role blocker would interfere with the Vigilante's action.

Please don't actually commit to anything though.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Uhh I think Tchill is town and scum have a better answer to the vig but

[Ouroboros]

VOTE: wilky

im just gonna sheep what seems like decent logic.

off the past few pages i agree with the reasoning behind the wilky wagon.

Okay.

WTF.

It's been 5 days since TChill has posted

anything

in this thread.

Did I miss something or has this slot been replaced yet?

Ghost

Pedit:

???

Why are we killing Wraith to demonstrate this hydra's alignment? Wouldn't it make more sense to just kill this slot instead?

If we were scum, we are under no obligation to follow this plan that you're proposing.

So, again. How does this prove our alignment?

FYI - I hate how this game has devolved into relying on PRs.

[Ouroboros]

Got it. :3

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Wraith is a good shot regardless though

Explain?

RC hasn't informed me of why he scum reads Wraith.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Whenever people oppose lynches I see red on I find it impossible not to see every distraction as scum motivated or stupid.

Sorry if my approach D1 upset you.

[Ouroboros]

Jungling presumably

[Ouroboros]

Kaede.

Can I please point out to you that even in twilight I had a knee jerk feeling about Wraith and said to instalynch them tomorrow?
Then I stopped scumreading them basically because they were on the wagon, but when I actually went back through the game again I didn't like them so much.

You found my Ventriloquist development scummy as well: anyone in this game can verify that me changing reads is at worst a null tell and that presence or absence of snap read changes is how some people read me.

[Ouroboros]

I can 100% tell you the RC isn't scum

Why?

And yeah I know 5 man scumteam doesn’t make sense logically.
But if we are going by “feels” and not logic, that’s who I would say the team is.

Your feels are that anyone who contradicts you agenda is scum, this is exactly the shit you pulled in Civilization, if I were scum I know exactly how to push your buttons and let you throw the game and you know it.
Davesaz isn't never scum but we're lynching Wraith today and we'll deal with davesaz later.

[Ouroboros]

Meh.

I actually don't want to play this game anymore.

I'll talk to anonymousghost.

[Ouroboros]

Well Maria, when you read me as scum, it's hard to trust you on any of your reads since you're wrong on me

That's shitty logic and you know it. You've read me wrong I've read you wrong it happens.

He wasn't calling you scum btw, he was saying that he doesn't trust your judgement.

[Ouroboros]

Okay lynch me and then stop fucking listening to RC

Deal?

This will be a win-win since I won't have to bother catching up.

This post makes me second-guess though

yeah it made me second guess as well

[Ouroboros]

The fact that at least 2 of you scumreads are wrong makes me really dicey about trusting your read on davesaz.

I'm thinking

[Ouroboros]

He can be scum and be genuinely confused about the vig thing....

Not really, remember as i said, that Vent's post were doctored in the scum PT and this was proven and that's how he got lynched. This means that this scumteam is being very careful to post the right things.

They were only doctored at one point in the game when he was under massive pressure, the entire game didn't have to be doctored.

Come on.

[Ouroboros]

Oh yeah the 'I can write my own posts, thanks.' kind of indicated that. But I do generally feel like they were doctored.

Which two do you think are wrong?

If you’re wrong on Wraith I know I am wrong somewhere because 5 doesn’t make sense.

Work with me here instead of against me.

Pedit:

It imho without a rock solid on someone else has to happen today.

I used the same logic on mafia universe to win as confirmed scum.

Like literally we were confirmed same alignment lovers.

I am weary because I have done it. If I have done it being “bad” as RC claims then anyone can.

The absolute biggest obstacle to me lynching Davesaz is that I still think Wilky is scum, I just can't go after him because of setup reasons.
I townread the slot fairly hard on play and whatnot

Wraith's last felt town as well so that's ehh
Hebi/OTM is very probably town

I'm tryna fill out the rest

[Ouroboros]

He can be scum and be genuinely confused about the vig thing....

Not really, remember as i said, that Vent's post were doctored in the scum PT and this was proven and that's how he got lynched. This means that this scumteam is being very careful to post the right things.

They were only doctored at one point in the game when he was under massive pressure, the entire game didn't have to be doctored.

Come on.

Well obviously.
I'm just saying that the fact that they were doctored at ANY point in time, could prove that the scumteam is being very careful about their posts, Kokichi had some ammount of time of Day 2 where he was barely posting anything, if he was scum, this would mean he was reading the scum PT, which makes it even LESS likely to make a blunder like that, i'd concede to the point if Kokichi had been so active here that there wouldn't have been much time to carefully craft posts in PT or something, but we're talking about a player who can look very town as scum like on Steam VN Upick, and I just don't see someone like him making that kind of mistake either way, as town considering how much he gets scumread in general due to the way he posts and plays, it's entirely possible that post came from him. I do admit that saying 100% was probably too much, but i'd say it's about 95% sure.

I don't actually think that that precludes him having made some mental effort, like I don't think it was a mistake in the sense that you think it is.
It's NAI and I don't think scum!Kokichi stops himself from saying that.

[Ouroboros]

If Wraith is town Tchill is no longer spewed town

[Ouroboros]

ftr his reason for the timestamp evidence doesnt make sense.
Who the hell goes and opens several tabs and posts them at regulated intervals so "ppl dont ask him questions or push him while he's posting"
The theory that makes the most sense is they were doctored in the PT.

No they were 100% cleaned up and by someone competent. The MWNN stuff was a calculated attempt to spew him scum.

[Ouroboros]

I'm still not especially enthused about a Tchill lynch based on his play though, I want a replacement to read. Meh.

[Ouroboros]

I mean, as I said D1, everyone can be scum if you just make up some sort of reason of why they'd do what they do as scum. Considering, most of them usually consolidate in one big reason "To appear town", which you know, it's something im sick and tired of hearing every single time.

Can you start applying that to my play this game please?

[Ouroboros]

[Ouroboros]

can you get paranoid of OTM instead

[Ouroboros]

k honestly I just wanna lynch dunnbun but I know maria will get mad at me if I vote him

[Ouroboros]

Ouroboros
Kaede
Ankamius
Davesaz
Alchemist21

Probably town:
Wraith
OTM
Impossibear

Bottom of town, but still towny:
Ramcius

I honestly don't know, going to trust setup spec and hope they do end up dead at some point:
RMOJ

Maria:
Maria

Somewhere around meh:
Tchill
Kokichi
ProjectMatt/Nero

Actively vscummy:
Wilky
Dunnstral

The only way I am scum is if Hebichan intentionally cheated soooo let’s how about not? If you want to make that argument you can. I won’t stop you but uhmmm that’s rather ridiculous for why I already pointed out.

Please answer the question.

And if I could show you site meta where I am not “bad” as town?

This is an area where I know that your thinking is systemically flawed regardless of how you've improved in other ways.
It's not the correct play to outright lynch the guilty here.

[Ouroboros]

Alright hold on

[Ouroboros]

Oh I don't actually scumread OTM

I just want you to not sheep him because I don't think he's right.

[Ouroboros]

(Also I have never wanted to vote Hebi because even when she was being bad and like I objectively should have scumread her I just... didn't?)

[Ouroboros]

...all of them probably?

[Ouroboros]

Yeah I magically 180ed again but that felt like a town reaction to my push on him and as you can see based on some of the other pushes in the game that I snap townread at some point I do snap change reads like that.

[Ouroboros]

Dunn I have no idea why you're locktowning me here and it makes me uncomfortable.

[Ouroboros]

then why are you calling him literal 100% town and stuff

[Ouroboros]

also there's your weird oh I dont like the wagon development on ventriloquist and just general absence of anything that makes me conf. that you're town. maybe I'm wrong though who knows.

[Ouroboros]

Ramcius
Maria
Tchill
Kokichi
ProjectMatt/Nero
Wilky
Dunnstral

[Ouroboros]

Wilky/Ram/Maria/Projectmatt stands out of all the combos in that list

[Ouroboros]

I dunno. Like as far as I'm aware you can't read me at all, so. I dunno. When Cheeky townread me it was weird and she was scum. Maybe I'm wrong.

I can't recall you mislynching me either so maybe you just skew towards calling me town.

[Ouroboros]

let's not lynch wraith, we're both agreeing that reaction was pretty towny?

[Ouroboros]

Oh Nero actually was scum hmm.

[Ouroboros]

Yeah a lot of people have really bad townreads on that slot.

Actually ANONYGHOST has him has her top scumread

[Ouroboros]

Oddly though I think pjm scum kinda spews Wilky town

[Ouroboros]

OH NEVERMIND LOL.

I completely misinterpreted something.
'
Hrm. This is actually bearing fruit.

[Ouroboros]

OTM I am always all over the place. When I've stopped being all over the place it's time to derptunnel people or the game is over.

[Ouroboros]

Because Maria can read dunnstral well and says he's locktown and I'm also not -really- scumreading him?

It's also not a bad vote tbh

[Ouroboros]

Actually that wasn't the AtE I townread, it was the get everyone to stop listening to fucking RC bit but.

[Ouroboros]

this is my pagetop motherfucker

[Ouroboros]

wait a second...

---

announcement

Official post hijacking!

2.08

wilky (2):

MariaR, Tchill13

Ramcius (1):

wilky

Tchill13 (2):

REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE, davesaz

davesaz (4):

OnTheMark, Kokichi Oma, Kaede Akamatsu, Wraith

Dunnstral (2):

Ankamius, projectmatt

OnTheMark (1):

Ouroboros

Wraith (1):

Ramcius

projectmatt (1):

Dunnstral

Not Voting:

Alchemist21, Impossibear

With

16

alive,

9

to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2018-05-27 22:26:54)

[Ouroboros]

MEIN FUHRER! I CAN WALK!

[Ouroboros]

Meh.

We could just give OTM her lynch I guess but like zzzzzzzzz

[Ouroboros]

I don't think Davesaz is never scum though

[Ouroboros]

FUCK YOU GIF

[Ouroboros]

Meh.

We could just give OTM her lynch I guess but like zzzzzzzzz

His please.

Even if you consider me the worst player ever.

The pronouns are more important to me than that.

Apologies, I suck at pronouning you. I was doing better this game I thought.

[Ouroboros]

Meh

I am officially averse to a dunnstral lynch starting now.

[Ouroboros]

I'm like
Thinking the Lynch is project Matt

[Ouroboros]

Gotta start taking Ramcius scum seriously as well.

[Ouroboros]

did you just try to discredit kokichi as being "LAMIST" solely for saying they want to lynch you, dave?

The broken record style there makes me think exactly that.

Then I am LAMIST /sarcasm

I can’t believe you are getting away with this.

And I figured out your fake claim too which makes it even worse

What do you mean you figured out his fake claim

Talk me through it please?

[Ouroboros]

Projectmatt flip is hyper important and I think he's scum

Mafia suddenly stopped making sense at a having ventriloquist level scumread level but that is very likely scum

[Ouroboros]

Luv u 2

[Ouroboros]

Got u or

@PM Nero kinda spewed Davesaz town and probably Ramcius scum.

[Ouroboros]

No but the rest I'll keep to myself.

[Ouroboros]

Don't want none unless u got Dunn's buns Hun

[Ouroboros]

I mean that's a fascinating theory but I sincerely doubt scum has a traitor setup spec wise and I think gif is looser about flavor than you think.

Can we, like, do the Nero thing math,?

[Ouroboros]

ETL, OTM, Maria, Dunn: what are your thoughts on Ramcius and projectmatt: I would like to Lynch in the pair of them.

Because I townread his play and we'll get more info on his alignment when more roles are outed.

[Ouroboros]

I pulled them out of a deep dark place.

[Ouroboros]

you know I have trouble explaining my reads

its ok projectmatt I'm going to case ur ass six ways from sunday

[Ouroboros]

ok i will give a MECHANICAL reason that you're confscum u fucking memelord

[Ouroboros]

Even I don't want to Lynch wilky right now, so

[Ouroboros]

I'll hard hard case tomorrow I'm tired.

[Ouroboros]

I want neither davessz nor Tchill I think both are hard town

I want Ramcius/projectmatt. I'll explain in detail tomorrow

[Ouroboros]

Bro please Davesaz just isn't scum no matter how much you want him to be I'm sure or that now.

Let me do my case thing tomorrow

[Ouroboros]

Easy lynches never hit scum

I'm going so ham tomorrow

[Ouroboros]

Maria be a good girl and sheep me and I'll make sure no one wagons you

[Ouroboros]

As for everyone else just repeating the case will come but I need sleep first bye for now!

[Ouroboros]

You never asked me to play league wtf you can't just spring this on me

[Ouroboros]

Not tonight I'm too tired tomorrow's

[Ouroboros]

Alright all systems are go for case production

[Ouroboros]

Anony has already made a case but I don't remember what of it she has already published outside of our private spaces so I'll leave it to her to share anything she wants to.

[Ouroboros]

Spoiler: Nero PBPA

I'm not getting the Wilky hate. Like at all. Why in the world would scum fakeclaim miller to 1v1 a useless powerrole. Everyone on that wagon gets -10 town cred.

What does seem possible to me is that Dave fakeclaims miller and then CC'd.

vote:Dave

This position that he's taking feels too strong: it feels like a TMI townread. It was already known that the miller claim wasn't a 1v1 and he chooses to ignore that in favor of taking a very confrontational stance. Not a fan.
Not actually literally something that never comes from Nero town, but the position does feel kind of forced.

VOTE: Nero Cain

This seems good

Because focusing on negative utility roles is a distraction and is the kind of thing I'd expect scum to be doing if both millers were town

VOTE: Nero

this is scum sheeping dumb town.

vote:Maria

Again: why? Rather strong position to take, feels TMI. This one is more strongly TMI since I think that dunnstral was not towny at all at that point in the game.

no no no. Hiders are

OBJECTIVELY

weak. We don't call them weak hiders b/c that's redundant. You're basically claiming that you don't know how a hider works which I think is bullshit. You are

ALSO

twisting and/or putting words into my mouth

Again this entirely sequence feels like he's playing dumb. It's not difficult to understand what we're talking about with regards to the hider not being weak but he chooses to go off on Maria for 'not knowing what a hider is?'
This is similar to the first situation with the miller where it obviously wasn't actually a 1-1 CC and this had been discussed but he chooses to ignore that in favor of confrontationally taking a stance that dummies out a lot of the situation.
I went through a strong period of thinking that this was SvS and if I die tonight you should probably lynch Maria before endgame, but this does say more about Nero than it does about Maria, so.

Also just because you point to wiki and find a role weak doesn't mean it can't be in the game

I don't get what this is, like at all. If you are saying that I'm saying that TChill has to be lying b/c the role is not as the wiki lists it then its putting words into my mouth.

that's not the issue at hand here. The issue is you're saying 3 roles 1 has to be a fake claim in them via scum and that's the agenda you're pushing that I have a problem with it's not me saying you don't think hiders are weak I don't really care about that. I just don't get why you closed off the thought of "oh maybe they could all be town"

That really wasn't your original argument though. Like Tchill claimed that he was a hider but GIF had taken away the weak modifier. You then claimed that I think "

without thinking if that's the case town has to have some great stuff or scum are underpowered etc etc.

Its putting words into my mouth.

I guess the real question is why can't I, as town, think there's a fake claimer in 3 neg utility roles? I guess the other question is why do you think all 3 are town and they aren't fakeclaiming.

Do you sr people in the group besides the claims? I see you tr wilk because you don't see scum him ccing but what do you feel about dave and tchi play wise?

I DO! I think you are scum and the RC hydra is scummy and Khade. Dave and tchill are null, it's pure WIFOM paranoid.

again: totally misses the point of the discussion.

thought I do like this I just didn't like how RC seemingly was talking out of both sides of his mouth about Wilky.

And your going from "I think Wilky is scum" to "guys lets all believe the the 3 neg utility roles" makes your Wilky vote seem pretty bandwagony.

Read on me is weirdly waffly: calls it good then says that I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth. Also the inclusion of 'seemingly' is scummy, was I or wasn't I talking out of both sides of my mouth about Wilky?

RC, if your town and your whole thing is "I'm going to get Nero lynched as punishment!" then that's p immature bro.

Though the thing about the Wilky was meant to be about MARIA'S vote. I reread it and see how it was confusing so my bad on that.

Again this is... weird. The reaction to me getting nero lynched as punishment is pretty underplayed, just calls it immature, but he still felt like including that when there was a clear reason I was scumreading him that he corrected?

ewww @ the Nero is lurking argument. Though I can't tell if its normal Ram idiotcy or opportunistic scum hopping on a growing bandwagon.

This is a super scummy post on it's own right, and its super indicative that Ram is scum as well.


Also not going to include all the quotes about Maria but his weird insistency that Maria is scum to the point of tying a bunch of people to her feels scummy regardless of darling Claire's alignment.

your top scum read is town as fuck Wilky while you also blasted me for thinking that there's scum in the fake claimers? This is hypocritical as fuck.

Again: Wilky feels TMI, the other bit is just awful.

I doubt i can get anything more from you, if no one else is joining me, but i'll keep eye on you

mayhaps no one joined us b/c the grand total of ur case is "Nero is lurking" which isn't true anyways.

Feels SvS once again. Super shallow engagement that doesn't actually make an effort to sort each other, just to have an interaction and stop talking to each other.

I don't really buy into this "I'm playing my d1 sheep game." I don't feel like a meta dive but this is probs null as they do it as both alignments. Still, the scum motivation in sheeping is there.

Again: really waffly. Nero is not a waffly person.

So TL;DRs of Nero.

1) His reads on several people, including Dunnstral, Maria, and the millers, feel TMI.
2) He shallowly engages with several major topics of the day to the point of failing to engage with the actual questions and taking a strong stance not based in the reasoning. I don't think Nero's that dumb.
3) His intercourse with Ramcius feels incredibly SvS. Maria I'm also concerned about but I would actually put her as more likely to be town post Nero-townflip than Maria.

I am not going to do a PBPA of Matt because I haven't had the same level of tiem to distill what I don't like about individual posts but

1) His obsession with the question of mechanical vs not mechanical feels like a scum posturing to me. He doesn't actually try to change it, he just makes fun of OTM for it.
2) He AGAIN feels really TMIy with several locktownreads that he doesn't explain, insulting several readslists with no indication of what's wrong with them, and his poorly explained Davesaz tr.
3) Back with 1: he repeatedly gets mad at townies for doing 'bad' things but makes no effort to change them, he just insults them and continues to sideline the game.
4) At no point in the game does he actually scumhunt or explain a read. Go through the game again, it literally never happens. He just has this Dunnstral scumread and pushes it, no explanation, insults a bunch of the popular wagons, no explanation, explains why Tchill is included in his scumpool earlier in the game but no explanation of why anyone there is scum.

[Ouroboros]

As for ramcius he has a number of disgusting points in the game that I think are worse than his town game would provide.

Spoiler: Ramcius PBPA

1) In the early game his choice of Tchill/Wilky didn't come down to reads at all, it came down to the mechanical reason that Tchill couldn't be vigged. I don't think that's a read development that Ramcius makes as town. I think he has actual reads.
2)

well, in my past large themes there wasn't, but i trust you on this

still, i'd prefer Tchill over Wilky, he came after both miller claims, so i feel it might be scum trying take advantage of miller claims

final answer
I would lean it a few percentage points towards it being his town meta although this result isn't especially conclusive
definitely enough to not want to lynch him today, yall can clusterfuck him later in the game when me and anony are gone if you want

@Ramcius???????????????????????????????????????????????????/
How the fuck is he scum trying to take advantage of miller claims in what way does claiming that as scum take advantage of miller claims?

Are you believe some weird hider claim that isn't weak? Or it's more likely scum trying smuggle in some fishy claim during confusion caused by millers and attracting less attention than it would get normally, and simultaneously getting protection form investigative roles?

These posts both just feel so, so awful. Likie this isn't an intellectual thing as much as it's a gut thing and a word choice he used so more Ventriloquist style but I feel like these are scum most of the time.
182 in particular kind of deserves a Ventriloquist level scumread but I gave him space for bad reasons I think.

I don't like Ventrilo's attempt push me, i dlike Wraith's "5 scum, no faceclaim", we still have Tchill/Wilky situation, Realmen asking to be burned with the fire, hebi's sheeping is unsettling, Nero is awkwardly silent

Hm, i guess i try

VOTE: Nero

others at least are talking

This is a really strange read: Nero has been doing a lot of stuff but he randomly decides that Nero is awkwardly silent. Feels like SvS, particularly with how Nero reacts which I've outlined earlier.

So... will this Ego battle end someday?

They asked me a fucking question. I answered it.

Also can anyone confirm that's something Ram does on every game?

Since no one else wanted to actually look, I did. I only found the following as far as calling someone town, in a large theme where he replaced in, this was the only post containing a townread, and it was over 60 posts in.

Subject: Surreptitious II: Secrets and Misdirection

Gut says Desp town, probably go for Von tbh

Majiffy, i almost have more posts than you and i replaced in, so if that's your only "scumtell" on me, i pitty you, really

Subject: Real Folk Blues Rematch [GAME OVER]

@smith/Titus: Let me ask you two.. what makes Ram scummier than ZZZX or Socrates? What have they done (or haven't done) that he didn't (or did)?

The resistance to conftown for me. Socrates as scum (well the only place I have seen him), he was actually more active than this. I didn't like his outward hostility to me early.

Has Ramcius still been a stick in the mud regarding your conftown status?

a) Titus not conf town, but very close to it
b) i don't pushing or trying to interact with Titus at all, it's pointless to do so with her current status, only she wanting my head for some reason

Again, over 70 posts in, the first and only townread mentioned.

I don't feel like looking more as this seems to be just the way he posts. So... NAI.

ETL

eh, some people have too much free time, you simply could see that RC isn't bringing hell on me as he played with me and was metadiving, alternatively, why would i make such lie instead of just throwing few names as townreads? That was a bold claim and RC/MariaR/Nero would just crucify me, if it was a lie

Why does he single out Nero here (again this is highly associative based, preflip, BUT) when they don't have any particular experience with each other?

GiF

my vote should be on Nero

y aren't you trying to engage me or talk about my content or anything?

i would, but there's hardly anything to engage in your ISO

Well its hard to post content with all that lurking that I'm doing.

but real talk: That's not true and you know it.

UNVOTE:

I doubt i can get anything more from you, if no one else is joining me, but i'll keep eye on you

Again, just independently scummy since this guy has shown in previous games he's stubborn enough to gladiate Town!Maria who was universally townread and got lynched for it. Now he's not bothering with this push.
Also the focus on 'getting anything more' as opposed to seeing it as sorting or whatever is scummy in and of itself

your earlier questions about my opinion on Dave and why he can't be scum in sounded like you asking opinion from town, yet you again pushing my lynch, when people realised i'm town and left my wagon

I townread this at first but now I'm not so sure.

I don't like this post, it feels like Ank is trying save Vent and preparing for worst case scenario by doing some damage control after Vent will flip red

Same thing I called someone else (wilky) out for earlier, he's not voting for Vent OR Ankamius but he's trying to tie people to Vent.
He goes down this line of thought a lot but it never occurs to him to actually vote the person that he's trying to tie Ankamius to.

You guys might have a better shot at engaging people if you didn't post hundreds of posts when everyone else has like 20

This is at least a little disingenuous

i see why people want lynch you - instead of doing something productive you complain about people trying advance game

Just generally bad.

hmmmmm

VOTE: Wraith

I just don't see Dave being scum and rb on him is very weak argument, we aren't in such dire state to go after him and we can lynch someone we scumread instaed

Putting these together choronologically but this just vibes scum hard: what does dire state to go after him mean, it's just weird and it feels like scum trying to sound town.
Ramcius doesn't sound like this as town by the way.

So Ramcius PBPA

1) Gutscum galore. That's the absolute first tier reason for my ramcius scumread since everything else can be handwaved by 'he is just bad!' but he pings me like crazy going through again.
2) His progressions on reads often feel horrible and less TMI and more just not real, the focus on a vig existing being a major one but also several other points in the game.
3) God awful associatives with Nero that both make him look scummy and that tie him to a slot that has awful associatives going the opposite direction as well.


Oh and btw I am not 100% locktown on OTM. I want to make that 100% clear to everyone in the game. If they are still alive to endgame they should die there.
I do not think it's impossible that something really strange happened wrt scum discussion that led to Hebi claiming where she did. He's not my first slot for scum, but I want that brought up.

[Ouroboros]

I am going to start by voting ProjectMatt because that is the overlapping scumread between myself and Anonymousghost but if we are closer to a Ramcius lynch we are willing to vote there.

VOTE: Projectmatt

[Ouroboros]

ourboros, are you going to clarify where your reads are coming from or is it part of the Sacred Secret Mechanics that you aren't allowed to talk about?

I pulled them out of a deep dark place.

answer me.

hmm gee i wonder why ourboros goes silent the moment i ask them to clarify their reads

i too, would like to find out the basis for the scumreads. unfortunately,

M E C H A N I C S

are more important

i would genuinely love nothing more than for you to make a case for me being mafia

Also with regards to ProjectMatt: this amount of caring about my scumread on him feels scum indicative. This isn't the reaction I'd expect from town.

RC, at this point i just can't take your scumread on me serious it's like 3rd time you want me lynched

This is just a scumclaim though lol.

[Ouroboros]

You should vote ProjectMatt then!

[Ouroboros]

Also the Nero cain case is more... objective? whereas the other one is more... based on personal opinions of things. I'm not necessarily certain that the second is less effective but

[Ouroboros]

You should vote ProjectMatt then!

VOTE: ProjectMatt

sure

yikes, alright

UNVOTE

VOTE: Ramcius

took you long enough after all shade you threw my way in this game

i mean, not really. the only reason i switched from you to dunnstral is because you reacted semi-decently to the pressure on you, and it seemed like dunnscum was slipping under the radar.

what made you decide to vote me, ramcius?

Peer pressure

i mean, not really. the only reason i switched from you to dunnstral is because you reacted semi-decently to the pressure on you, and it seemed like dunnscum was slipping under the radar.

what made you decide to vote me, ramcius?

Peer pressure

do you think im mafia? why or why not?

i had townlean on Nero, you give me scum vibes, but it might be just your playstyle, so null i'd say

Not liking a Dave wagon anymore. VOTE: TChill/punreader

why we not lynching this?

this isn't a town progression btw.
Projectmatt is also trying to push the wagon elsewhere.

[Ouroboros]

I'm voting Matt, I will vote Ramcius if it pulls significantly ahead.

[Ouroboros]

Meh. I'll see the votecount

[Ouroboros]

Nope it's not a hard response to make as scum.

[Ouroboros]

If Dave was town scum would have pushed Dave and we mislynched him.

not that simple bud.

[Ouroboros]

The only reason we're imploding is because people are actively resisting having a town leader because of who the town leader is and no one else is stepping up to the plate.

ourosboros, i find it pretty weak that you made a case against me and then accused me of trying to change the wagon, but you refuse to engage with me or elaborate on your thoughts about those things. it shows me that your scumhunting isn't based on logic but rather the annoying kind of stubbornness that makes me get annoyed at every mafiascum game i join.

I'm stubborn, sure.

[Ouroboros]

I'm logical enough to have lynched scum yesterday so.

[Ouroboros]

Who cares about my play today?

What's your ramcius read?

[Ouroboros]

OK then we are at an impasse kind gentlesir.

[Ouroboros]

man can we lynch ventriloquist again

[Ouroboros]

@Ouroboros, you were suspicious of my thought process on Tchill (by suggesting he could be jester, i.e. misconstued to suggest we shouldn't vote for him ) yet you're not scumreading Tchill, a bit of an alignment disconnect don't you think?

This like

miight spew tchil scum

hm

[Ouroboros]

I'm actually nto confident at all in my ramcius/nero dichotomy rn and it makes me sad.

[Ouroboros]

I'm going to see where Anony stands on davesaz/tchill and maybe we'll just vote one of them, idk.

I have bad feeling sabout Ramcius wagon. PJM still probscum though?

[Ouroboros]

My reads are wrong somewhere: I don't know where. I can't solve this game alone and I don't think I'll be alive long enough to get any more information.

Sigh.

[Ouroboros]

Like I don't have a ventriloquist level scumread, I don't have some kind of magical gamesolve, if I keep trying to force myself to find a gamesolve I'll end up making my reads worse than they were before.

People need to friggin post things or something.

With how you destroyed the game sir, you will be alive a very long time.

You gave everyone an angle to say “It’s Math” or “It’s Mechanics”

When if it was literally anyone else here Dave would be dead.

bro. the roleblock does not constitute a guilty. the roleblock does

not

constitute a guilty. davesaz can be scum maybe but.

[Ouroboros]

ok ok ok oko ok ok ok ok ok ok okokokokok

umm

kokichi lynch maybe. verylazy is still awful.

[Ouroboros]

Occam's razor says to me that of all the slots I've waffled on Wraith has the worst reasons to think that he's town and so should probably be the lynch.

Projectmatt is the other one that's in contention for that, as is Kokichi but Kaede is not willing to lynch her fiance so.

[Ouroboros]

Anony is between Tchill/Wilky. I wonder how sure I am that wraith scum spews Tchill town, I should read.

Confirmation: You explicitly agree with me that we have too much power claimed, correct? If so, we're probably working with only one scum in the pool of unclaimed players, 2 on the outside. Your project_matt case is pretty compelling (Not enough that I'm interested in sheeping there, yet, but definitely food for thought.) Me and ETL agree that Ram is probably just really lynchbaity. Is there anyone in the pool you've got a confident townread on?

Who are you defining as the pool?

[Ouroboros]

Here's a question to all the people who are certain that Tchill is scum.

Of all the potential scum slots, why does scum decide to give the one that gives investigave immunity to Tchill of all people?

[Ouroboros]

Can you do my lack of mental energy for this game a favour and compile those groups for me

[Ouroboros]

first 4 are all townreads I thiiink? im all ver the place on ramcius rn so not committing to a read there but yea
dunn maybe
rest some stage of ick

wraith/kokichi/projmatt would all be lynchable

[Ouroboros]

I'm gonna try a readslist again, putting you and rmoj in t1 for reasons: RMOJ could easily still be scum ftr.

Ouroboros
Impossibear
Kaede
Ramcius
Ankamius
Alchemist21
OnTheMark

1/2 of
Wilky
Davesaz
is town, the other is probably scum I

decide later:
RMOJ
Maria

Better than the rest maybe?:
Dunnstral

leaving:
Tchill (who doesn't actually make sense with some of the scumflips I thiiink but maybe that's wrong)
Verylazy
Wraith
ProjectMatt/Nero

wait what if both millers are scum

[Ouroboros]

It's pretty fucking strange that Wilky claimed the equivalent of non-consecutive cop, made excuses for his failure to die in the future in the process of doing so, and said he was an okay lynch because of his role ...?

[Ouroboros]

Like he was downselling the power of a cop so much. was s trange.

[Ouroboros]

What do we do tomorrow if RMOJ doesn't actually have a daycop and claims it was some sort of reaction test?

[Ouroboros]

What are your kokichi/PJM reads, aka the semi-universal townreads that I'm highly skeptical of?

[Ouroboros]

VOTE: otm

Bye

[Ouroboros]

Maybe you need better reads then.

[Ouroboros]

Didn't you say you can read me at some point

Strange thing to say I'm NGL

[Ouroboros]

Ok you're done.

VOTE: Davesaz

[Ouroboros]

Let's just Lynch the guilty.

[Ouroboros]

You haven't correctly scumread me in a single game ever.

I don't believe that you actually think you can read me and if you somehow do think you can read me and think I'm scum, you can just die.

[Ouroboros]

Wow I stopped playing brute Force for two days and now people are already trying to wagon me. Hopefully one at least is scum but.

@Kaede please acknowledge that what I've told you about me getting scumread the moment I stop playing control freak is true.

[Ouroboros]

Deadline: 5 days, 0 hours, 58 minutes

Ahem.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

I'm not liking OTM since he has joined, his push on kokichi makes no sense at all, the lack of understanding about a scum no kill seems like someone with information feigning ignorance and the reads he posted seem fake.

This is one of Wilky's posts where he follows a pattern. In this case, he's the second to last person to show support for that OTM faux wagon that appeared out of nowhere, shortly after OTM replaced into the game.

In order, Ank was first, followed by Kaede, a slight pressure from PM. This is where Wilky shows support for the OTM push - I put it in the above quote -, but there's a lack of stance on OTM's alignment. It reads more like Wilky's trying to look busy, rather than actually scum hunt.

Kokichi is the final person to show support for the OTM wagon and it's notable that both Wilky and Kokichi paraphrase PM's "fake-iness" point against OTM.

Original PM point against OTM:

all of your posts sound insanely fake

In chronological order, what Wilky and Kokichi parrot about OTM:

I'm not liking OTM since he has joined, his push on kokichi makes no sense at all, the lack of understanding about a scum no kill seems like someone with information feigning ignorance and

the reads he posted seem fake

.

Okay, yeah. You're just scum.

Everything is too fake.

Kaede let me know when we are done doing whatever L1 thing we are doing and I can vote OTM

I would be satisfied with a lynch on Wilky, TChill/Punreader, or Kokichi.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Deadline: (expired on 2018-05-27 22:26:54)

Can everyone post a lynch pool? So that we can start consolidating who we want to lynch/compromise on?

It's literally been a back and forth between a small group of lynch candidates and rehashing the same damn points over and over again.

It's not getting anything done.

I do not want to have a shit lynch just because we almost ran out of time and became demotivated enough to not play the game/give a good effort.

I'm talking with RC right now and I'm willing to fold on a TChill/Punreader lynch for the future. I'd be willing take a Kokichi lynch for today instead.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

VOTE: Kokichi Oma

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

@Mod - Would the role swapper need their partner's permission to role swap?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Given that Ventriloquist only happened because I strongarmed it through and I haven't had any dead certainties in my scumreads today, yeah I suppose we didn't lynch scum today.
But you seem to think that I'm scum, either for not having already lynched another scum or for having lynched a scum in the first place.

[Ouroboros]

Also literally no one has given literally any townread to people for being on/off the wagon for the same reason that the wagon was pushed through via my force of will so that's a terrible way to read the game.

[Ouroboros]

Inversely, off of description of play (not to mention the D1 lynch) I would be rather concerned about Ouroboros and projectmatt.

The implication here is that you specifically scumread me

more

for having lynched scum D1, am I wrong?

[Ouroboros]

That's not the question I asked.

[Ouroboros]

In case I need to be completely clear

do you agree or disagree with my interpretation that you consider my having been first on a scum lynch to be more scum indicative than town indicative?

[Ouroboros]

I'm going to vote you if you don't give a clear answer to the question.

[Ouroboros]

do you agree or disagree with my interpretation that you consider my having been first on a scum lynch to be more scum indicative than town indicative?

This is a question that can be answered yes or no.

[Ouroboros]

I know who you are and I find that answer strange at best: I would expect you for -reasons- to outright townread me with possible later consideration for a bus over that.
But I will allow you to catch up before I get any more in your face because all of your reads so far are basically meaningless, you are saying.

[Ouroboros]

No, that's what you were trying to get me to say. It is not what I said.

No, I was trying to dig for a response that would be AI.
And trust me, I know who you are. Though it's ~plausible~ that I misunderstood your understanding of my meta.
I was under the impression both that you thought that I had mostly stopped bussing and that you didn't feel like you had any real ability to read my slot.

What I have actually said has remained the same.

I have reads. I have ideas for who is town and who is pun. These are not meaningless. They are based off of very little evidence, largely conjecture. Given that, I wouldn't place strong faith in them and you could classify the reads as varying degrees of weak. That does not invalidate them altogether. I have a direction to focus on. I am not positive that direction is the right one yet because I haven't read the game. That doesn't mean my feedback is worthless. If it held no value, I wouldn't be giving it.

If you're going to call me one of the few slots that has scum equity for you I think your reads are pretty worthless. But again, I'll wait and see what the end result ends up being.

[Ouroboros]

And I mean I disagree with like... basically all of your reads. And kind of feel like you feel like you replaced into a floundering town if you're town, rather than one that's mostly on the right track but hasn't entirely gotten there yet.
I understand the motivation to be contrarian in such a situation but like read the actual game before you come to conclusions like 'town hasnt lynched its second scum yet so obviously all scum bussed and are no longer in contention for lynch!'

[Ouroboros]

Maybe I'm reading myself into you but that's what it feels like to me.

But again I just want ot let you catch up first.

[Ouroboros]

I invite you to go back and do an analysis of games where I'm going hara kiri mode on scum as early as I was this game and compare whether counterwagons existed there. Generally scum don't end up trying to brute force fight with me.

[Ouroboros]

Not that I -don't think that scum voted the wagon at all- I just wouldn't bother to call it bussing because I don't think anyone on the wagon has gotten towncred for it.

[Ouroboros]

I and most of the rest of the lobby would prefer you didn't. I also don't think that phrasing at all clears wilky, particularly with the 'not buying it just yet' bit but.

[Ouroboros]

@Impossibear

- Please take a look at 3239 for my stance on Kokichi.

Dunn - I have no real opinion about him; he's not a high priority lynch.
Wraith - Same as above. You'd have to talk to RC about possible scum!Wraith since RC was leading the charge on that.

Within your group, here's my preference Kokichi -> Dunn -> Wraith.

Can you take a look at my preference and tell me your thoughts? (Kokichi, Punreader, Wilky)

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

@Bear

- Okay. I can wait on a Wilky lynch.

In order, I'd prefer Kokicki first (today), then TChill/Pun, and then Wilky.

This is subject to change provided two things: one, the flips and two, that our slot actually lives to tomorrow.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Does anyone see the main problem with this post?

No?

Unless you're talking about how the VC resembles a shotgun spread, then not really.

Talk to me about it?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

@Bear

- Are you still here?

I'd like to run a theory past you and hear your thoughts. It relates to 3242 and might - but this is a

very slim 'might'

- offer a possible explanation as to why Vent died with that powerful role.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

@Kaede

- What's your lynch pool look like?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

@Kaede - There's been three people IIRC that show support for a Ram wagon - yourself, Ank, and Wilky.

Can either of you three - or anyone else who wants a Ram wagon - explain why he's scummy? Beyond just saying he's scummy since that's not persuasive.

Ghost

Pedit - Thanks Kaede.

[Ouroboros]

@Kaede - I'll get in touch with RC and see if he can get me up to speed on his Ram case.

Is there anything in RC's case on scum!Ram that you didn't like?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

@Kaede - What does the abbreviation TMI stand for?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

@Kaede - I didn't actually know or notice that.

No offense, but because you're mod confirmed IC, I haven't been in-depth reading your posts since I don't have to solve your alignment.

Can you explain the Matt read?

Ghost

Pedit:

No thanks.

I suck at math.

[Ouroboros]

Can you explain the Matt read?

Oh i was townreading math, the math read is 100% being convined by RC's case.

M'kay.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Maria voting Kokichi because me and Anony heavily encouraged her to says virtually nothing about her alignment, for the record.

My big 3 right now would be {Kokichi, Wraith, PJM}, I'm fine narrowing it down to your 3 but I'd probably actively resist a dunnstral lynch for today at least. other two very happy to see dead.

[Ouroboros]

Kaede, for the record, the only reason we didn't initiate on Kokichi a lot earlier in the day was because you were townreading there and in hindsight Kokichi has gone out of his way to deliberately pocket you so I'm not sure how much I trust your read there rn.

[Ouroboros]

I mean. I would have townread him in that game, for the record.

What sort of consequences?

[Ouroboros]

Do you have mod confirmation that he's town?

[Ouroboros]

Well then obviously we don't wagon him because then he's town.

[Ouroboros]

Okay. If your information isn't related to his alignment then I'll stick with my vote. Sorry.

[Ouroboros]

Would a case help?

In this case most of the impetus of the vote is actually my hydra partner so she should probably take the lead on that, but it's something we can do.

[Ouroboros]

I don't have a great deal of trust for virtually anyone's reads in a situation like this where I think it would be very easy for Kokichi to pocket you.
I am far more worried about Kokichi reaching endgame as scum than I am about Wraith reaching endgame as scum and as a result I'm not super enthusiastic about lynching Wraith first.

You also have basically 0 chance of coercing me by threatening me with 'consequences'. Regardless of your feelings towards me I like you and you'd get a lot more mileage out of talking to me differently.

If you're wondering why,
Over the games i've had with Kokichi I've noticed that he's usually scumread for things related to his play style or role play. It's even gone as far as being used by scum to strongarm a lynch through on the slot on the one time we hydra'd together: viewtopic.php?p=9997201#p9997201
It is, very hard for me to take any sort of scum case on Kokichi seriously because it is often based off ppl that dont agree with the way he plays.
Hence I have grown wary of ever trusting anyone's read on him, specially scumreads.

By this, I don't think any sort of case you could come up with would do something to me. And he's a friend of mine that replaced into this game just to play with me again since we haven't played in months, as long as I townread the slot, I'm gonna be like this, and if you lynch him and he flips town, then you dont even wanna know what a spiteful Kaede is capable of.

I would like to posit that I am generally one of the best players at reading different playstyles and I don't usually find Kokichi naturally scummy. I'm more scumreading 'cause of his predecessor anyway?
Like I have my own people who I systematically misread but I'm not typically someone who falls for lynchbait.

[Ouroboros]

Like (and you shouldn't take this personally in this game because there's clearly better kill targets with the amount of PRs floating around) you are going to live to endgame this game I am fairly certain.
If kokichi is scum that means all he had to do to win the game is pocket you which is something that I believe his style of play excels at more than convincing broader groups that he's town.

I'm more concerned about him making endgame than virtually any other potential scum reaching endgame and that's a problem. If we can as a group agree to write a large chunk of people out of the PoE and lynch Kokichi somewhere later down the line then you have mileage convincing me to go for easier scum flips while I'm still alive.

[Ouroboros]

You scumread me in the Not-Mafia game. So?

correct me if I'm wrong but our slot was confused about the Caregivers scumreads until you decided to basically claim a guilty on me, and from then on I was trying to lynch you because you refused to prove your lie detect.

[Ouroboros]

That game had the sole person on this site from whom townreads on me mean anything and you chose to ignore their townread on me and try to get me copped, then tried to burn it on literal confscum, and in doing so lost town the game.

[Ouroboros]

Postie can't actually catch me as scum ftr but she can clear me as town about ~25% of the time that I'm town and doesn't clear me as scum.

[Ouroboros]

(like her reads on me are overall terrible when I'm not a locktown read but if she says I'm locktown I'm going to be town, unless we're scumbuddies ofc ofc.)

[Ouroboros]

Anyway. I don't really want to fight Kaede here. I don't especially trust her townread on Kokichi but it's worth giving Kokichi a day or two over I guess.

VOTE: Wraith

[Ouroboros]

But Kaede, please stop threatening me with policy lynches to get me to do what you want.

[Ouroboros]

No, we don't want to because we don't agree with your reasoning.

My level of brute forcing thing is an exception not the rule.

[Ouroboros]

Stop tryna derail: we're lynching Wraith today

[Ouroboros]

Kaede I did you the favour of getting off Kokichi, you can do me the favour of staying on the wagon that I do support.

I wasn't sure about Wraith but now I am.

[Ouroboros]

I wasn't the one who led on Wraith here. Kaede was the one who wanted the Wraith lynch, I had wanted the Kokichi lynch.
All of a sudden they're obsessing over my involvement, my lack of reasons, etc. that's caught scum there.

[Ouroboros]

Can someone get the votecount?

[Ouroboros]

Btw clock's ticking, if we dont consolidate on a lynch not named Kokichi soon im gonna vote Dave and add superglue to it.

This makes me jumpy.

[Ouroboros]

@ETL this will seem like a strange question but bear with me. Jingle get ETL here just to answer this question if possible.
do you remember when I made a reference involving Maestro's name that he didn't get but you did on minecraft?

[Ouroboros]

That avoids the need for the thing I was going to do.

[Ouroboros]

I'm putting my chips on Wraith today. Sorry if this is wrong but I don't have a computer to tell me if he's scum or not and my brain isn't perfect. glgl

Let's commit here

[Ouroboros]

save the Vent case

Question: what was the vent case?

[Ouroboros]

Btw I townread the first four votes, aka scum weren't bussing wraith early presuming he's scum or voting him at all until perhaps dunnstral
so people are going to say 'oh but why would Wraith have pointed out the whole selfhammer thing' and the answer is because I think Wraith still hoped (hopes?) to avoid the lynch
I think scum are reluctant to bus him, I think scum think they lose with this lynch and with only a few of my assumptions being right that is a fact.

[Ouroboros]

dunno why you would do that.
all I was saying is that 3/5 of the voters are basically conftown in my books, Ramcius is likely town, so at worst if there's scum on the wagon it would have been someone who got on late.
which is different from specifically calling you out as scum, it's saying that scum don't want to vote here which is objectively true.

on top of that you should know that there's already a bunch of town votes on the wagon so unless he's scum and scum absolutely refuse to bus it goes through.

[Ouroboros]

THE TASK WAS APPOINTED TO ME

IT'S MY TASK, MINE, MY OWN.

[Ouroboros]

>RC had better reads than me
>RC is using scum knowledge

[Ouroboros]

>RC quotes lord of the rings
>RC was editing posts for Impossibear

[Ouroboros]

http://l-o-t-r.tumblr.com/post/50259646 ... ow-who-you

[Ouroboros]

Something something something this is why you shouldn't base your reads solely on night play rather than day play.//Ghost

[Ouroboros]

I did a pretty exhaustive meta dive of Wraith's games right down to the point of pullling an Elli and searching for the frequency of a word I found overrepresented here and in weird situations and found it to actually be an applicable tell.

Like I don't have to be 100% right but anyone who thinks I'm wrong is going off of less evidence than I have thought through, not more. And that looks exactly like a scum early game bus, so.

[Ouroboros]

Also PJM is very probably scum, Ramcius may not be.

[Ouroboros]

Actually me and ETL are mostly in agreement about how to proceed from here.

OTM is just trying to lynch Davesaz.

Can you hurry up and vote Wraith so we can win this game?

[Ouroboros]

you know the exact same rationale that led me to vent is leading me to wraith here, exact same set of RC exclusive tells.
you don't understand why I am on this wagon, you don't have a good reason to say it's flipping town, just trust me please.

[Ouroboros]

like chesterton's fence this, I understand something you don't about wraith, there was similar opposition to Vent wagon from the same set of people.

I can make a case here but any case I provide is going to be as lacklustre as the Vent case was until I had a nail in the coffin. there will be no such nail in the coffin and the thing that got me the Vent lynch isn't something that I seriously considered half as damning as some of the other stuff that was going on.

[Ouroboros]

like ramcius is town I'm more and more sure
I'm town
Kaede is town
OTM is town - all 3 obvious
Dunnstral maybe scum but townlean

scum are not voting here. wraith is playing to survive the day phase. scum are not going to bus so if town has bad reads town is going to lose.

[Ouroboros]

yup PM is scum, but we established that a while back I think.

[Ouroboros]

also townleaning wilky more than I was earlier

grr I guess I have to try and put together a case here but i rly dk what to say.

[Ouroboros]

Oh and when this flips scum we never lynch Davesaz basically. This wagon was way too hard.

[Ouroboros]

Like he scumslipped and this wagon's still not going through.

[Ouroboros]

I would feel REALLY guilty tho

[Ouroboros]

I'm still confused how that's a scum slip.
Like I read the post twice

The "scumslip" is that I said "RC will claim latecomers to the wagon bussed me"

can't be bussed unless scum just vote maria.

[Ouroboros]

i meant

maria

just vote him

[Ouroboros]

but she's not bussing you

[Ouroboros]

ok but

she's not bussing you because she's not voting you

[Ouroboros]

less meme more wraith lynch

[Ouroboros]

don't even go there.

[Ouroboros]

unbring it