Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[Gammagooey]

hello big monke and other friends
VOTE: gorilla

As THE OLD GUARD I can answer questions about things that happened in the last game - most shit will prob only be marginally relevant if at all, but I'll spout off about a couple things now to get 'em out of the way

a)If you get hit with Invictus specifically you will not fire your invictus too. This is also in these rules and the FAQ here but I expect at least 4 people to not bother reading things in the modposts so if you didn't now you know so you can not make dumb assumptions people have to correct later

b)This:

This game does not meet Normal guidelines, but is non-bastard and it can be expected that roles are either relatively common/standard or are simple variations to interact with the Invictus. For example, a Mafia Godfather or a Town Invictus Bulletproof would be fair game while an Iambic Pentameter Post-Restricted Townie or a Mafia Global Role Randomizer would not be.

Exactly one role may have abilities that exceed this scope and violate the above guidelines.

However, there is a moderator guarantee of no alignment changes.

has a chance (but not guaranteed b/c this isn't ACTUALLY a Vi game, it's just based on one) of being the Tarhalindur role. If it is, it may not fit into the regular flavor/roles of the game at all so don't be bad at setup speculation and lose the game later because of it. Also Tar in the last game literally did nothing, not even Invictus, and its ability "Trump Card" was just a confusing red herring for the mafia (and would have been a confusing red herring for the town too had it ever died).

c) If you're a bodyguard and you do a sweet diving save you DO get to shoot off your Invictus as you're going down and the person you guarded will not, and this was a decent chunk of the power town had in the last game

(this is not guaranteed this game because this is not the same mod but i'm probably still right, ask your mod for further details Bodyguarding is not available without a prescription from your mod side effects may include injury & death)

Aight I'm done rambling about the OLD DAYS now and will stfu until other people get here

[Gammagooey]

Gamma, when was the last game you played?

Slaughter Hour last year, I'm p. much at the point where if I'm playing more than 2 games a year that's above my average viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87782

@Kovu - at the time I voted gorilla I had no read on them whatsoever fyi. Their posts this page especially are p. good so far tho. Also think that the amount of effort you seem to be putting into analyzing the first 3 pages of the game is prooobably overkill but that's mostly just my personal thoughts of what actually matters/what's actually alignment relevant being usually not distinguishable from just people being themselves this early on; as long as you're not committed to those being Important Reads 4 Life tho you do you though, it'll at least be useful for people reading you

@Fireisred - agree with VPB that I don't think you need to be the post-police unless someone actually hits like 90/100ish with more than 2 days before deadline. 125 posts for 7 days is v. fine and VPB in particular can handle himself just fine in terms of post volume.

Gonna roll with this for now
VOTE: Meuh

[Gammagooey]

Lukewarm you seem pretty gung-ho about this and it's at least a better wagon than Dats imo
VOTE: marcistar

How big a % is this her voting behavior and how much *other vibes* in your opinion? Are those vibes similar or dissimilar to the first few of her posts in viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89094 since that seems like her most recent other game? (bonus points if you don't look up her alignment in that game before doing this)

[Gammagooey]

ALSO, the post where you criticize my reads

i think ur hating on her for her basic personality

saying i'm "hating" on someone because i said they might be scum 6 pages into a game is a little bit over the top, no?

and a lot of your points against me are "i don't agree here i don't agree there" and it's framed as if i'm scummy but why is having different reads scummy? like, the only instance where you actually explained why i might be scum for my reads is for my read on you, and i already said my problems with it so i don't feel like repeating myself but yeah

P. much agree with dat's points here

@marci - you mentioned a few things you didn't like about Datisi's readslist but I don't think those being different from your reads is a decent reason to find him scummy, especially this early - like I'd even agree with you that I don't think I've been super helpful yet, there's a decent number of people who barely exist in-game yet and I likely won't be doing a ton until everyone at least attempts to show up. You mentioned your opinion of his Meuh read already, but what do you think about Bell since they're Datisi's 2nd highest scumread? Also, do you have another player you think is particularly scummy aside from Datisi at this point?

[Gammagooey]

I wanna poke at this for a bit
VOTE: Bell

Also think that Marci & Bell wagons both existing for a bit would be NEAT and I can maybe help make that happen

[Gammagooey]

Hi, i forgot about this game.

I will not catchup so please tell me who to vote.

SHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP

There's less than 10 pages so far, do you want to die to invictus night 1?

b/c posts like this is how you wind up dying to a n1 invictus

[Gammagooey]

Semi worried this is a noraa situation though.

Bleh, Gamma, you hating on Bell because he is being wall paper and not answering questions?

ehhh mostly no? it's more of a gut read - Didn't really like his early posts, like wanting to cut through the bullshit of Rhyme & Reason but then going back to jokey nonsense asking Lavar if the original owner of the account was kidnapped rubbed me the wrong way, and Datisi having a scumlist with a first 3 being <marci, bell, meuh> made me feel pretty good about pushing it when I feel like all 3 all were pretty good early votes. His response to you about Luke/Marci is also way more convoluted than it needs to be and I have a hard time thinking that he typed that up meaning for it to actually be helpful to you or someone else in reading him.

As a sidenote, I disagree with your Dunn townread - I think I've seen like 3 people say they townread him and to me he looks the same as he did in the last game I was in where he was scum (Slaughter Hour), and I don't remember him being different in World of Tomorrow where we were both scum with him either (though my memory of that game isn't great tbf and I checked out a bit after I died). Like I haven't seen him as town in ages and it's still early game, but his vibe still seems like *he exists a little bit but never sticks his neck out and makes a big deal of anything relevant*.

Lukewarm you seem pretty gung-ho about this and it's at least a better wagon than Dats imo

You were voting Mueh before this... and why were you even voting her?
This is really weird.

Assuming you're asking why I was voting Mueh, her first two posts had multiple very, very early townreads with no scumreads, which I think is slightly more likely to come from scum since it's easier to envision/come up with reasons for people being town when you know they're town already. Also felt that the tako vote felt like a very easy *vote the newbie, ask them for more info* that wasn't likely to get them backlash from the player they're voting and just looks busy - on post #63 you can say you want more there for literally every player in the game. Their posting from #274 onwards feels a bit better than their early posting imo but I still wouldn't actually call her a townread yet.


I'm also just gonna post my quick notes on Marci since I think they'll be relevant to people taking a look at her+Bell+any other major wagons that are around as everyone starts showing up again

Spoiler: Marci Notes

Marci feels like an unconfident newbie trying to push people when they don't normally regardless of her alignment
the difference between the jokey tone & the serious? vote seems weird - I can imagine that she might have wanted to change her game/playstyle up because of confidence in a read or experiences in recent games but the Dats reasoning doesn't seem to be strong enough to justify it on its own
like "datisis the devil" in #148 is just confirmation bias. It seems like she'll keep posting and have other reads in the near future, and I want to see how she looks when her posts aren't 70+% Datisi related.

And lastly I think gorilla is town and Lavar feels slightly town to me too, and if you ask me I can iso them and make an attempt to turn "why" into words but GUT is what you get for now.

[Gammagooey]

ehhh mostly no? it's more of a gut read - Didn't really like his early posts, like wanting to cut through the bullshit of Rhyme & Reason but then going back to jokey nonsense asking Lavar if the original owner of the account was kidnapped rubbed me the wrong way,

and Datisi having a scumlist with a first 3 being <marci, bell, meuh> made me feel pretty good about pushing it when I feel like all 3 all were pretty good early votes

. His response to you about Luke/Marci is also way more convoluted than it needs to be and I have a hard time thinking that he typed that up meaning for it to actually be helpful to you or someone else in reading him.

bolded feels kinda... weird. your read on bell is related to datisi's scumlist why exactly? can you explain this more?

It's an early gutread and Datisi also having a scumread on Bell made me more confident that it wasn't just me finding Bell's posting to be a bit off. It doesn't really affect the read itself but I don't think I would have bothered voting Bell if LLD & Datisi hadn't voted/mentioned Bell earlier, actually wagoning people tends to be more useful than just a vanity vote of 1 sitting on a person.

And lastly I think gorilla is town and Lavar feels slightly town to me too, and if you ask me I can iso them and make an attempt to turn "why" into words but GUT is what you get for now.

agree on gorilla but not at all on lavar. you don't have to like full iso but give me at least one reason or something that stood out as towny?

These 3 posts felt town to me. Come across as v. natural, open about the possibility of something scum-pinging them being wrong but still wanted to put their thoughts out there

Tbh I'm just excited to actually be solving after just playing a scum game.

Ok, fair enough... but

I was put off by you immediately talking about which posts pinged you town/scum. And the tone you used really felt a bit odd because your reasoning seemed to consist of short, vague bursts of words. For example, "hints at actual scum hunting", "pretty solid vibes", ...
Those phrases had the effect of feeling not-genuine to me.

why is her vote different than any of the others?

Her intention was clear and she followed up on it after voting

if i get bored reading your posts, i'll see that as a red flag because i don't easily get bored playing mafia.

ngl this seems like a lazy reason to scumread someone

Also, Marci going against a scumread on me? That’s new. I was expecting her to scumread me by now

This scumpings a little. I'm just gonna put it here. I don't wanna get tunnel-vision either.

What are your current reads looking like?

Town: Kovu, fire, fey
Scum: Mueh, tako
Confused: Bell
For your second question, I thought it unnatural to immediately jump in to a game quoting posts and stuff. Also, the reasons she was using were also very buzzword-y tbh. Third, yes pretty much it was that dunn could have been taking advantage to defend a town datisi. Just a theory.

VPB looks good too. Also, I noticed I haven't really read any posts regarding marcistar.

Very hard to see town not responding to an accusation by someone they're supposedly town reading.

I don't think I avoided much though?
Just why I thought Val was nulltown. Well that was mostly just because I thought scum doesn't make that sort of post (generic answer I know), but now I think it's possible. No read on Val.

[Gammagooey]

I hate this game so much right now, know what, I'm taking a page out of enchant's book, and I shall do absolutely nothing, and guess what, you can have fun with Val who hasn't posted in 2 days and all the others not even attempting to play the game, I'm so freaking over this

I know you're being sarcastic here but I do highly advise just taking a break and doing something else for a few hours at least, maybe even most of today
Mafia games are meant to be fun so if you aren't having fun leave it alone and come back later. I get that not being able to interact with like half the game is frustrating but people are hanging out with family and going out of town for the weekend and it's fine if they don't have time to meaningfully check in 'til monday, as long as they put in effort and participate after that. Not everyone's going to play the game at the pace you'd like and that's gonna have to be ok.

If you wanna bitch at me for it sure b/c I'm not doing either of those things and am instead just visiting my apt's pool later and relaxing, but either take a break or try to focus your annoyance to me - if you want to throw a few questions at me I don't mind rereading a person or two and sharing thoughts on 'em to bounce off of ya.
For instance I think VPB's #356 that you dislike is Null and could come from VPB of either alignment, and have a very dumb reason to slightly townread VPB that I can share if you'd like to be disappointed in me.


@Bell you seem to be pretty self-aware of your meta and how you're playing (explicitly saying this isn't anti-spew in #323 for example) - Why make the *miss* posts/mentions to LLD & me at all? Like it just comes off as annoying and I don't see how/why you'd think anyone would think it's something you'd only do as town.
Also, is #399 just your personal notes/thoughts on Val/Kovu? I have no idea what you're trying to get across with that post.

@Meuh - Do you have any more detailed thoughts on VPB atm from his earlier posts? I wouldn't mind hearing 'em if you do.

[Gammagooey]

VOTE: Marci

I fought through a headache to get to through my catchup, and I am not willing to case out anything through it.

Might case gammagooey and/or val tomorrow if I'm feeling it.

If it makes you feel better about me (it probably won't) I also think Val is a decent vote, he's just falling into the V/LA crew in my mind of people I'm expecting to show up and be much more readable in the next couple days

This just in, Luke does not want us to kill any of: Dunn, fire, Bell, Kovu, VP Baltar, Enchant, or LLD

Also maybe this is me being annoying about taking "don't want to kill" being stronger than you might actually mean it but I feel like nobody except fire and Bell (post-claim and ONLY for today) being on that list is justifiable in my eyes

Yeah you think Dunn is town for Kovu-logic but I feel like Dunn's perfectly capable of making a weird but logical argument as scum, tho prob we're going to disagree and I'd be fine leaving it at that for now.
I feel like you're underestimating LLD (especially) & VPB's general ability as scum, Enchant has a very high chance of being my Invictus target by the end of the day if her posting doesn't improve, and Kovu's like. fine? I don't think they look town yet but it does seem like you've played with Andante before and probably have a baseline idea of either their town or scum play.

[Gammagooey]

I know you're being sarcastic here

Why wouldn't I be dead serious? I do not care that it's a holiday TOMORROW game started 3 days ago, and I saw 8 people had less than 10 posts, I feel like 10 posts over 3 days is a very reasonable expectation, like, if people aren't going to do anything, why not give stuff to look towny, so those of us who actually want to play the game, have something to read. wild concept I know

back in MY DAY someone could post 34 times in 2 weeks and eat a scumkill for their trouble viewtopic.php?f=56&t=18022&user_select[]=1608

to be real tho your annoyance/frustration is valid but if I was going on a Memorial Day vacation with family without my laptop, I would prioritize that over the game too, and given that the game-posts here are a bit thicker than usual I don't know if I'd be able to meaningfully contribute at all until I was back.

I’m not against a gamma vote, if only because they just naked voted Marci while caution preaching.

I already shared some thoughts on Marci earlier, and sure if you want to make a scary buzzword for it "caution preaching" seems better than the alternative of not commenting on reads I don't think are justified and letting them go unexamined until *woah surprise one of them was scum nobody could have predicted this*

[Gammagooey]

@Dunn- Slightly scum, you're participating in convos but you still haven't actually voted anyone yet and I don't remember you saying you're scumreading anyone in particular (I could be forgetting but if so then I dunno why you haven't actually voted them) and if my memory is right I've felt like you don't get very deep into scumreads+your reasonings for them when you're scum.

LLD is on Lukewarm's "do not kill" list and if it's an actual townread then it's absolutely not justified (and I mentioned in my post to Lukewarm that I might be taking it more seriously than how he feels about it)

[Gammagooey]

I personally feel like if VPB is scum it isn't because of the reasons Fey+fire are bringing up about picking fights and calling fire's push ridiculous. I think he's being reasonable in his responses and the cheekiness/pushiness/whatever you want to call it is just VPB being VPB. Like I don't think I'm actually good at reading VPB until a couple flips happen and I can see where he was pushing and when/why, but I've played with VPB in enough games over the last decade to get a decent understanding of his posting personality at least.

@Val - Do you have any scumreads on anyone aside from Datisi? Or any particularly strong townreads you could share? It's still pretty early but I don't think I could even make a guess at your opinions on anyone except about 4 people from what you've posted so far.

[Gammagooey]

It's still pretty early but I don't think I could even make a guess at your opinions on anyone except about 4 people from what you've posted so far.

Out of interest, however, who would those 4 be?

The two non-Datisi people I think I could make a semi-accurate guess at your read on would be Kovu & Lukewarm.
I could also make *a* guess at your reads on Marci and Lavar, but I would not be confident in those guesses being accurate.

I have a fairly big issue with your read on Datisi, in that from my POV everything you've mentioned aside from your initial *vibes* on Datisi is speculative confirmation biased garbage. Looking at a wagon and assuming a)Other people are joining this wagon for the same reason(s) you are and b)that the wagon is not only meaningful in regards to the players *voting him* alignments when from a quick skim every vote on it except SirCakez came before the end of page 2, but that the wagon sheds light on Datisi's alignment when, as you said, the majority of the people voting him are likely to be town that are making an early guess at Datisi being scum with statistically barely better than random odds, is a terrible reason to continue pushing for Datisi or literally anyone being scum.

If Datisi IS scum, they have been scum for the whole game so far. *Wagon Logic* is a terrible method of scumhunting and Datisi's now done plenty of other things that are worth commenting on, so if you don't want to share your other reads on people you at least should share your thoughts on Datisi's more recent reads/interactions with Marci & VPB, or their readslist, or their comments to fire/Fey/Bell. Personally, I think that being easily readable (as town) is generally more helpful than being able to push effectively for who you think is scum given how inaccurate everyone is at actually finding them, but even if you don't agree with that, the last votecount has only you and marci on Datisi, and if you want them to actually be the elim today you're going to need to talk about more of their play than a wagon in the first 4 hours of the game and the subsequent reactions to that.

[Gammagooey]

I personally feel like if VPB is scum it isn't because of the reasons Fey+fire are bringing up about picking fights and calling fire's push ridiculous. I think he's being reasonable in his responses and the cheekiness/pushiness/whatever you want to call it is just VPB being VPB. Like I don't think I'm actually good at reading VPB until a couple flips happen and I can see where he was pushing and when/why, but I've played with VPB in enough games over the last decade to get a decent understanding of his posting personality at least.

I feel like you're doing a good amount of soft defending me, which I don't really mind I guess, but why? What's your read on Fey right now as well?

I feel like from a non-you outside perspective I'd be waffling on you more than soft-defending, I've got one post telling Lukewarm that you shouldn't be on his do-not-kill list and another not that long after saying that you aren't scum for the reasons two people are giving out

I generally enjoy playing with you a think you're definitely in the upper half of players in terms of skill level in the game, I'd feel shitty if I let you get run up instead of pointing out things said about you that I think are pretty likely objectively wrong, even if you are still just a barely nulltown read of mine at the moment.

Fey's a slightly town read just b/c none of her posts have pinged me as scummy at all so far, but I also have been periodically forgetting that she's in the game at all until a post of hers pops up when I'm looking for things other people mention. Feels a little similar to her lategame in Slaughter Hour when peta+Taly drowned the game in noise and she just peacefully checked out, but I know she's a competent player and I'm expecting her to be more of a presence in the next couple gamedays.

-----------------------------------------------------------

why?

I really did not like the way that her scum read on datisi played out, but her reaction to being under pressure/suspicion feels distinctly like town marci imo

hmm. i kinda felt that earlier (like around her response to you 106, and 213 specifically felt like how she posted in newbie 2090), but haven't liked her more recent posting much at all

i haven't played with her before (besides when she was gragas, which i only recently realized while looking at her past games), so maybe you have a better handle on her meta, idk. can you point out specific things that stood out to you that made you think that?

I'd also like specifics on that

I'm pretty surprised I'm not more on marci's radar/scumreads atm - I've been if not defending Datisi himself directly, pretty present in both generally agreeing with him+his reads and in telling Val that I think the reason he's scumreading Datisi is garbo, and it just feels pretty disconnected from her reading Datisi as scum so strongly. Plus I'm used to a more frantic energy from newish town players who have that level of confidence in a read - throwing other possible people that could be scum with the person they're 100% scum on, either attacking the people scumreading them for being other possible scum or throwing up walls that include one or both of "I'm not scum because meta reasons"/"This post from my scum read makes me think even more that they're scum and I don't get why nobody else sees it". Like I think the smug snipes at people and her last post of "oh yeah there are more/other reasons now" and the general tone she's presenting here is more likely to come from scum than town in her position.

--------------
I uh also read over Cakez's re-entrance to the game like 3 times and utterly failed to come out with a read on it. I don't think anyone wants to read/cares about the details of me waffling on that read so I'm just gonna give it another attempt day 2 or something

I've got a lot of work I need to get done today but since deadline's getting closeish I'll be around at least a little after work today as an fyi

[Gammagooey]

Ayy I'm finally around

You could probably guess but I vastly prefer the marci wagon to Lavar's
Like the only reason I could get for people voting him is that his posting is a little stilted and that his self-admitted tinfoil of Datisi & Marci being scum together is bad. Like he knows nobody's going to agree with it, that's why he said it's tinfoil, and I still think his early posts were good with him flatly saying what he thinks but being open to looking at other things/potentially being wrong about early reads.

[Gammagooey]

LLD!

Read over these marci posts and tell me what you think

Spoiler: marci posts

i don't really think this is an accurate assessment of datisi as scum at all. have you read datisi scum games at all, and if not what made you come to this conclusion?

i havent seen datisi as scum at all and im not gonna meta read

i came to the conclusion because thats just how i think hes like, he gives very much vibes like hes doubtful in his abilities all the time to do stuff, am i wrong? i thought i remembered a game where he kept doubting his reads and going back and forth on them, but am i remembeing the wrong person?

@Marci what's up with the all caps posting??

i think i did that because i felt rushed, i know one of the posts i made at work and the other one while i was crossing the street

i imagine you very timid as scum

lol.

i- i- i-
go away.....
stop bullying me...
im not timid as scum... its just when i roll scum its always against people im scared of...
tbh i just generally play timid...
BUT THATS NOT MY POINT

i actually do think ur scum, and i actually do have reasons, but tbh a magician never reveals their secrets unless people ask

I actually like Fey for bandwagoning to Datisi, but don't really have any opinion on the other votes or anyone else rlly

I like fey as well, she keeps asking questions and it seems like those questions are her trying to push the game forward so i think shes towny

and like ok fine you don't have the same meta read as i do thats not scummy, but... i also don't quite get it cause like... you're saying that you think he lacks confidence as town and that you think his mafia game is similar... so why is him not responding to votes more likely to come from scum than town? like whats the difference there that you expect to see?

it sounds like you're saying "you're like this as town" -> "i expect you to be like this as mafia too" -> ??? -> "so the way you acted makes you scum"

and i don't get what the missing step there is

I don't really see why it has to be

so, so, so

hard for you to understand what im seeing... but okay!

datisi being town just seems more unlikely, i think theres more benefits for scum him to ignore the votes on him.. whats so hard to understand about it???

VOTE: marcistar

bell - scummy because he doesn't feel like he actually wants to be here
dunn - can be slight town for 50, feels nuanced *enough*
dwlee99 - lack of presence and the quickness of 118 is town.
enchant - dead null.
fey - i think slightly scummy because the convo with me felt more like posting for posting's sake but i am not married to this read
fireisredsir - town.
gammagooey - like both of the votes they've made. don't think they're trying to give off an impression that their posts are more useful than they are. slight town.
gorilla - townie for 92.
kovu - slightly townie for 81 because i don't expect scum!them to enter like that but we'll see how this progresses.
lady lambdadelta - null.
lavarmanos - slightly scummy maybe? my eyes are glazing over reading these posts. idk jury's still out.
lukewarm - mostly doesn't make my stomach turn so can be town for now. 101 is slightly sus but otherwise all ok.
marcistar - lol scum
meuh - 63 felt too tryhardy, the points on me in 79 feel off, and the "haha i am glad to be town!! and solving!!" is forced
rhyme and reason - 120 feels kinda townie idk why call it vibes. i wanna see mena freak out that i'm townreading his slot for nonsense ok.
sircakez - slightly SLIGHTLY townie for 13 because i like the tone but it's like. 0,01% more townie than random.
takotsubo syndrome - i feel like voting someone then plain unvoting because hurr durr reaction test is not very likely to come from scum? like scum would have some sorta bigger trajectory there. can be town for now.
val89 - my eyes glazed over 131 so into the scumbin you go
vp baltar - deadass no clue what to think here, ask me later

town (from towniest to least townie): fire, dwlee99, luke, gamma, gorilla, takotsubo, rnr, kovu, dunn, sircakez
void (no order): enchant, ladyld, vpb
scum (from scummiest to least scummy): marci, bell, meuh, val89, fey, lavar

cheers

I do not really like datisis reads!!
i dont think fey seemed scummy, i like what she posted so far she looks like shes trying to solve
i dont think gammagooey is "slight town", i dont think the posts theyve made is really like super helpful yet.
his read on me is i think datisis like the devil rn since hes not really trying to make me see the light of things (if im wrong), and instead hes just saying its scummy. i think hes trying to shut me down because its easy and he doesnt want his haters around.. it seems like more hes trying to convince everyone else instead of trying to collaborate with me...
i also *shocker here* dont agree with meuh feeling off yet, i think she hasnt done much alignment indicative yet and i think ur hating on her for her basic personality
i dont really agree with sircakez being slightly townie either..

^^ dismissing fire for not understanding a point you did not explain well, at best

how was that dismissing i was trying to talk it out

i'm not inviting, no. but i said what i find to be scummy posts from you and it's on you to try to change my view. i don't plan on begging you to explain yourself to me because i don't think you're approaching me in good faith at all.

where have you pointed something of mine out and specifically said "thats scummy"? all I can find is you responding to stuff of mine by asking shading it, but you've never specifically said its suspicious.
i think ur just trying to skirt around the truth that im the most innocent angel to ever grace this planet...

"why arent you trying to point out proof of why i have to be wrong instead?" your reasons for scumreading me are (1) i voted someone fire voted and (2) weird speculation about my personality. i have yno way to respond to (1) because that's not why i voted vpb but i'm obviously going to say that. and there are a shit-ton of other reasons why someone would vote someone in rvs to the point i don't believe that to actually be a genuine read from you. and (2), i asked you why you came to the conclusions you did about my personality and translated it into a scumread? you ignored it?

Are you just trying to make me feel small by outyelling me..? Is that ur goal devil datisi..?
why cant it be a genuine read from me? my vote was like page one, i just explained my reasons later so whats so impossible of those being actual genuine reasons? I think you just want to shade me and get me miselimated because i'm an easy target. (:
whys it impossible for u to just understand that I think that way of ur personality because i just

do

? Do you think I don't have experience talking with liars at all?

before you ask where:

LIKE I THINK THAT BASED ON THE PERSONALITY I THINK HE HAS, I WOULD THINK HE WOULD THINK NOT REACTING TO THE VOTES WOULD BENEFIT HIM AS SCUM. I THINK THAT IT WOULD BENEFIT HIM AS SCUM BECAUSE HE SEEMS LIKE THE TYPE TO BE A SLIPPERY SNAKE, AND NOT REACTING TO THE VOTES AND NOT MAKING A BIG DEAL ABOUT IT WILL MAKE IT SEEM LIKE HES COOL WITH IT, AND NOT MAKING A BIG DEAL OF IT = LESS SPOTLIGHT = LESS DOUBTING

and i would not do this as town... because...? like if you think i as town am insecure and doubting myself, why wouldn't i respond the same way as town? like, this whole explanation goes from how you've seen me as town, making conclusions about my personality, then attributing those conclusions to my scumgame as opposed to my towngame for ??? reasons

like, the confidence and annoyance you're showing about your reads grossly mismatch the actual confidence you should have and the quality of those reads.

I think ur just assuming I have more confidence than i actually do.

ALSO, the post where you criticize my reads

i think ur hating on her for her basic personality

saying i'm "hating" on someone because i said they might be scum 6 pages into a game is a little bit over the top, no?

and a lot of your points against me are "i don't agree here i don't agree there" and it's framed as if i'm scummy but why is having different reads scummy? like, the only instance where you actually explained why i might be scum for my reads is for my read on you, and i already said my problems with it so i don't feel like repeating myself but yeah

I wasn't trying to say "having different reads is scummy" but people keep framing it as so, so I guess we'll just say whenever I reply to anything datisi posts im just pointing out a reason i scumread him :shrug:
what i was trying to do, was say i don't agree and have an ACTUAL DISCUSSION with you but guess not!!
"hating on someone" is just the way i usually phrase things like that, i didn't mean for it to be so deep of a meaning just the dislike meaning.

but what do you think about Bell since they're Datisi's 2nd highest scumread? Also, do you have another player you think is particularly scummy aside from Datisi at this point?

i dont have thoughts on bell rn which is why i dont talk about him (:: i think he is usually just more invisible than other players, i can't really deny that "bell doesnt want to be here" is a pov someone might reasonably have, but i just personally don't think that way. pressure on him rn isn't the

worst

thing, but i think pressure on others is more benefical because bell will prob just come along eventually.
maybe gorilla, i think they're a capable player whos holding back like <92, 104> i think they could easily be going harder and getting more juicy info, but it doesn't really seem like they want to do that, which scum could do that? like scum dont want the game to move forward.
maybe sircakez but thats because i don't like his starting post.

theres like more people that i wouldn't mind more content from, because i don't remember them at all, but I think thats because me and datisi stole the spotlight of the game.
i think

if

datisi is town that scums sitting back and just letting this fight happen. it would explain why i cant remember anyone else

Also, Marci going against a scumread on me? That’s new. I was expecting her to scumread me by now

so selfish....... me scumreading someone is a sign of my friendship with them obviously.... you don't want me to be friends with datisi..?

still sus of marci, a lot of that early stuff about datisi is just... i have a hard time seeing it coming from a town mindset. but also like... no offense marci, but she seems clearly new. sometimes i have a hard time understanding the thought process of newer players. and like, i agree with the points for why she's scummy, but idk, some of the people jumping on her feel a bit opportunistic? and it sketches me out a bit. probably overthinking here but whatever

rude... im not new.... im the best player ever....
who is it who feels opportunistic for "jumping on me" here?

Gonna
UNVOTE: Baltar
VOTE: Marci
Cause it seems it's gaining more steam and I dislike her dislike of Datisi's reads

well what if i dislike your dislike of my dislike of datisis reads
is it all of it that you dont like or only certain spots?

Now, could be Marci is just a townie who decided to over justify a vote and didn't really think a lot about what she was saying, but she also could be scum here. Double downs aren't always easy to read, but I don't think Marci has responded coherently to pressure, and if she is town, she could have just admitted it was kind if a bullshit vote and not actually that serious.

why would i want to keep going as scum though?

So, seeing her suddenly have a page 1 RVS vote, and then double down on it, and then not be able to tell me why she even thinks it in a way that makes sense to me seemed really off.

i dont play large games often, but when i do it sure is a party isnt it?

Is this true Marci? do you have no reads this game and just floated by?
Is that normal for you day 1?
What's different this game compared to those if not and what's the same?
What are you thinking about this game?
Who oo you think is town nd who do you think is scum?

@Lukewarm: Where is Marci in your reads right now?

I've been giving reads so clearly the devil is just blind
also how convenient it is!! he hasnt asked me for my opinions on anyone certain... which he could always do if he was ACTUALLY TRYING TO SOLVE ME

theres been games where i just float by and just talk until i get something i feel in my soul. like one time someone told me it was sus for me to actually be serious about a game cuz they thought i was only a meme player ::(((
it depends on the sorta mood im in i think tbhs

i dont have alot of time to like type up thoughts since im at work for like another 4 hrs, and then ill be sleeping but if u have anything ur curious abt u can juat ask (:
i think gammagooey has a couple of agreeable takes but they piss me off so dont tell them i said that im not sure what i think of them tho aince the agreeable takes are v basic takes
i think kouvs town but i wouldnt trust them leading anything because theyre too emotional about things and too reactivey
balters i would say how self centered he is, i dont like that, so he scummy
fey towny
sircakez scummy, the bandwagoning is not good vibes at all
i dont like vals view of the invixtus mechanic because it reminds me of a diff game i played w him, but otherwise hes mid, he has some good thoughts

idk who else exists

Also would like to hear your opinion on Lavar but he's got a reasonable amount of short posts so I think he's probably iso-able in like 20 min or less

[Gammagooey]

^yeah

Spoiler: fires post for reference

ok, i can explain then:

1) your early posting felt really stiff and unnatural. this is more of a gut thing, sure, but i read posts like 91, 229, 232 and it feels like they don't really have any meat to them. i can't feel any town thought process behind your words, it just feels like you're trying to avoid stepping on any toes and making as low impact as you can

2) the way you interact with people. you're generally extremely accommodating to whoever you talk to. this has scum motivation bc it makes people less likely to want to scumread you. its not inherently scummy, but it is when it doesn't actually make town sense for you to do that there. one example is around post 290 and the following few posts with much. you had mueh as a top scumread before this, but once she started talking to you, you kinda started buddying her. it was a super weird interaction and i originally thought it could be s/s but i think it could just be t/s. this isn't the only instance of this, i think you also have done it with others, but it's the most significant for me

3) related to the above, i think you've gone out of your way to avoid interacting with people probably bc you know that you come off as awkward. you've ignored questions and haven't really engaged at all with the suspicions on you, and it seems like you're just hoping that they'll go away or people will get distracted by something else if you don't acknowledge them

4) your votes on val and marci feel opportunistic and are supported by p weak reasoning. it doesn't feel like you have any genuine scumreads and are happy to just go with the flow for the most part

I already mentioned potentially seeing his posts as stilted, & your example for the 2nd point is just him joking with Meuh b/c he forgot that Meuh voted tako earlier & feels to me at least like it came up organically from him not remembering that.

Your third & fourth point are more reasonable, I don't think votehopping is scummy and don't personally think that the Val/marci votes felt particularly opportunistic but I can see how you'd come to that conclusion at least.
I don't particularly try to engage people who scumread me as either alignment either unless they're specifically asking me something - ignoring questions I will give to you as yes it's generally scummy, I just don't remember when/where Lavar did that off the top of my head. I'll look back for it in a min though

[Gammagooey]

I don't particularly try to engage people who scumread me as either alignment either unless they're specifically asking me something - ignoring questions I will give to you as yes it's generally scummy, I just don't remember when/where Lavar did that off the top of my head. I'll look back for it in a min though

the most significant one for me was 788 they never responded to. and that question was fairly significant for me bc i felt like their reasons for their vote were made up to justify it and i wanted to see if they had some level of internal consistency or town thought process to their reads

i don't really agree with your characterization of the mueh interaction but ig if you don't see anything weird about it then i can't really do much about that. disregarding the joking aspect entirely though, they still came away with a townread on mueh after previously having them as a top scumread, and the reasoning for that was never really developed. do you not find that odd?

I'll give you that Lavar ignoring #788 is bad and will refrain from commenting on it further until he answers

For his read on Meuh, where do you see that he came away with a townread on Meuh? He says he could still see Meuh as scum later in #496 here viewtopic.php?p=13380741#p13380741

[Gammagooey]

maybe you could argue that them saying "i did look at your posts and they seem good" isn't them coming away with a townread, idk. i think at the very least it's being much more accommodating than i would expect town to be to one of their top scumreads

no I managed to read most of that post and somehow skip over or completely forget the sentence in the middle saying I looked at your posts they're good. I may be getting old but my eyesight shouldn't be this bad yet wtf
I still think that a few of his posts feel town that I've already mentioned but I'll admit I missed or glossed over a couple of things.

@Lavar When ya get here I'd appreciate if you could go into a bit more detail on which of Meuh's early posts or which parts were good after re-reading them, along with answering fire's 788

[Gammagooey]

@Lavar When ya get here I'd appreciate if you could go into a bit more detail on which of Meuh's early posts or which parts were good after re-reading them, along with answering fire's 788

Like early game right after you changed your vote to tako, what exactly of Meuh's looked better after another look?

[Gammagooey]

So we've got like a day left 'til deadline

If the options turn into Lavar vs no elim then I'll check in tomorrow morning to make sure no elim doesn't happen at least, but I reserve the right to grumble about it later.

Other things:
I would absolutely kill Enchant at this point for just not existing, I'd also personally vote Dunn, I don't think that'd get any traction given what everyone else's shared thoughts of him have been so far but also DUNN IT'S BEEN A WEEK VOTE AT LEAST ONE PERSON THIS GAME-DAY PLEASE

also also would like to hear more from LLD & Mala before deadline, but I get that they have RL circumstances to deal with atm so they do not get placed in the category with Dunn+Enchant of "would happily throw them off an quickly moving airship"

Dwlee and R+R feel pretty null to me so far but I also have a ton of null reads I need to sort out in the near future, prob a good chunk of them can be sorted a lot better after all the d1+n1 flips. Kovu if you have a particularly strong reason for wanting R+R dead that you haven't shared already I wouldn't mind hearing it, if you've already posted it though I'll take a look after I'm done w/ work today.

p-edit: slightly ninja'd by kovu

[Gammagooey]

after a quick skim I like Dwlee's 2nd and 3rd posts but basically nothing else there is good

I currently choose to embrace cheekiness for a few hours but I would vote Dwlee over Lavar too if nobody is on board with this

VOTE: Enchant

[Gammagooey]

after a quick skim I like Dwlee's 2nd and 3rd posts but basically nothing else there is good

I currently choose to embrace cheekiness for a few hours but I would vote Dwlee over Lavar too if nobody is on board with this

VOTE: Enchant

I don't feel like we...learn anything from wagoning Enchant. Basically everyone can argue it as a justifiable kill, it doesn't force anyone to take strong stances. Basically the type of player that is ideal vig fodder in regular games.

In a normal game I'd argue with you b/c yeeting scum is better than learning things about stances

But this one we COULD just all point Invictus bullets at Enchant and use it as a de-facto 2nd elim unless scum are so spooked by it that they no-kill which is p. unlikely
VOTE: Dwlee
ok gotta go to a dentist appointment like now back later tonight

[Gammagooey]

Agree that Lavar should claim at this point

Would be nice to know what Enchant thinks about Lavar or any of the wagons today or basically any meaningful read at all before they're shot in the face via Invictus tonight

[Gammagooey]

VOTE: Lavar

Here's to hoping I've just been a bit of a stubborn idiot all day

Probably see ya'll tomorrow friends

[Gammagooey]

R&R is the one who never voted besides me, however, they are town.
Kovu is town imo.
I’m ok with a Luke & Marci town.

I really do need to reevaluate though and do a good reread, but that will be tomorrow most likely.

Why R&R town? I think they have a few reasonable/good posts after they dropped the post restriction, but nothing that makes me think they

definitely

couldn't either have or fake those opinions as either alignment.

-------
Bullet points and then I'm probably gonna run a couple errands and re-read some in a couple hours and see what pops out
-Think Cakez looks p. town for how he was posting once he got back from vacation day 1 + the Lavar & Datisi flips
-From memory VPB feels worse
-I like Val's posting today so far
-Don't reeeeally get why Dunn's coming up now when I think he would have been imo a better counterwagon to Lavar than Dwlee was yesterday but whatever
-If a wagon on Enchant literally ever comes up and they haven't started playing drastically better you can assume I'll be willing to hop on it

@VPB - How scummy did you actually think Datisi was at the end of yesterday? Don't need specific posts/reasons since he's dead but I wouldn't mind a touch more insight into the mind of VPB.

this vote I'm doing is lazy but I do want it dead and I'll maybe-probably change it later tonight
VOTE: Enchant

[Gammagooey]

Anyway. I did the thing to confirm myself so I’m off the table now. Please keep that in mind.

Just to be clear

This is you saying that someone else in the game can and will confirm you as not just *having a role*, but *town*?
and if that several people find you to be sketch in the near future they will be able to say so and you will not magically have a handful of nothing or it suddenly be the person(s) who died last night.

please respond y/n

[Gammagooey]

Aight

Last thing I particularly want to share is that I agree with Fey's #1182 - marci in particular I feel like at least could have felt the risk was worth the reward - only being listed as a 'good wagon' by LLD when I asked her about it I don't think would have been that high of a perceived risk to scum-marci, especially if scum hoped for LLD to kill Bell instead.

ok back in a couple hours probably

[Gammagooey]

Looking back Fey looks town - the early Datisi push was much more about info-gathering/discussing things with Datisi than pushing for them as a mis-elim. The Dwlee vote from her was a little weak on its own but the followup now to Meuh feels v. good. Tonally I like the posting a lot too, though that may just be me relating to it personally than it being strictly more likely to come from town than scum.

@Marci - since you're voting me how do you feel about my not-you reads? Or my votes yesterday after it become clear that you weren't going to get elim'd that game day? Do you think I'm more likely to be scum given the flips, and/or that anyone else is more likely to be town b/c of them?

@Meuh - Which of Cakez's reads do you think are iffy?

[Gammagooey]

VOTE: gorilla

started okay, mostly fell off, vote on lavar kind of bad, not a lot of scumhunting.

Don't do this cheeky garbage, if you really think gorilla is scum then make a decent argument for it

gorilla was my strongest town read yesterday and I still strongly think that he's town, he's been active in sharing reads/opinions and in trying push scumreads/wagons yesterday until deadline came up, and his reaction to VPB felt VERY don't-give-a-shit-town to me. His recent responses to Meuh reinforce that point even more.

[Gammagooey]

@R&R

VOTE: Dunnstral

started okay, mostly fell off, vote on lavar kind of bad, not a lot of scumhunting.

VOTE: gorilla

started okay, mostly fell off, vote on lavar kind of bad, not a lot of scumhunting.

[Gammagooey]

Changed the grouping of marci's questions/comments to answer 'em a bit more succinctly

@Marci - since you're voting me how do you feel about my not-you reads? Or my votes yesterday after it become clear that you weren't going to get elim'd that game day? Do you think I'm more likely to be scum given the flips, and/or that anyone else is more likely to be town b/c of them?

i think ur playing it safe with ur reads, enchant, dwlee, lavar were ur votes other than me, and all people who aren't making too much noise in the thread

That's kind of fair - you're pretty much the only medium/strong scum read I had yesterday aside from Bell who claimed fairly early on, and pretty much all the other votes I had were just "I like this wagon better than the Lavar wagon". (and my Lavar vote was both after the hammer and only to make sure an actual elim happened that day). Meuh and Dunn and Val were slight scum reads for me yesterday that I wasn't particularly confident on, and I felt that you were a better elim than any of those 3. Dwlee was basically "sure this can maybe happen by deadline and I think it's got a better chance of flipping scum than Lavar at least", I don't have any confidence on my ability to read him with how limited his posting's been so far.

also also would like to hear more from LLD & Mala before deadline, but I get that they have RL circumstances to deal with atm so they do not get placed in the category with Dunn+Enchant of "would happily throw them off an quickly moving airship"

this seems kinda fake imo since i didnt see u really try to follow up w it?

-Don't reeeeally get why Dunn's coming up now when I think he would have been imo a better counterwagon to Lavar than Dwlee was yesterday but whatever

i think this is pretty convient of u to say, as u didnt really push overly hard in dunns direction, i feel like u were more focused on the bandwagons.

its pretty clear imo that ur just hopping from easy wagon to easy wagon

- -

LLD said they were sick and Mala said they were at a funeral that day. I'm not going to badger people to play in a mafia game over dealing with actual real life problems. Enchant I very briefly tried to get voted yesterday (real-life, not game-day) and am voting now. Game Day 1 There were several people commenting that they thought Dunn was town and I didn't think voting them would actually be helpful at all, esp. considering that you stayed a major wagon until the last 2 real-life days or so if I remember correctly, and I had a stronger scumread on you than him. I'll be happy to vote him now though, even if I don't get what changed for other people from yesterday to today on him he is still a pretty good vote imo.
VOTE: Dunn

I personally feel like if VPB is scum it isn't because of the reasons Fey+fire are bringing up about picking fights and calling fire's push ridiculous. I think he's being reasonable in his responses and the cheekiness/pushiness/whatever you want to call it is just VPB being VPB. Like I don't think I'm actually good at reading VPB until a couple flips happen and I can see where he was pushing and when/why, but I've played with VPB in enough games over the last decade to get a decent understanding of his posting personality at least.

this reads a bit like ur trying to buddy buddy vip balter.

Already answered a question from VPB similar to this, but I do like VPB as a person & a player a lot and if being his buddy is wrong I don't wanna be right

Spoiler: reponse to VPB's question earlier for context/reference

I personally feel like if VPB is scum it isn't because of the reasons Fey+fire are bringing up about picking fights and calling fire's push ridiculous. I think he's being reasonable in his responses and the cheekiness/pushiness/whatever you want to call it is just VPB being VPB. Like I don't think I'm actually good at reading VPB until a couple flips happen and I can see where he was pushing and when/why, but I've played with VPB in enough games over the last decade to get a decent understanding of his posting personality at least.

I feel like you're doing a good amount of soft defending me, which I don't really mind I guess, but why? What's your read on Fey right now as well?

I feel like from a non-you outside perspective I'd be waffling on you more than soft-defending, I've got one post telling Lukewarm that you shouldn't be on his do-not-kill list and another not that long after saying that you aren't scum for the reasons two people are giving out

I generally enjoy playing with you a think you're definitely in the upper half of players in terms of skill level in the game, I'd feel shitty if I let you get run up instead of pointing out things said about you that I think are pretty likely objectively wrong, even if you are still just a barely nulltown read of mine at the moment.

Fey's a slightly town read just b/c none of her posts have pinged me as scummy at all so far, but I also have been periodically forgetting that she's in the game at all until a post of hers pops up when I'm looking for things other people mention. Feels a little similar to her lategame in Slaughter Hour when peta+Taly drowned the game in noise and she just peacefully checked out, but I know she's a competent player and I'm expecting her to be more of a presence in the next couple gamedays.

VOTE: gorilla

started okay, mostly fell off, vote on lavar kind of bad, not a lot of scumhunting.

i dont like this post

I agree! Would you like to join me on Dunn? Or would you prefer to talk about something else? I do actually appreciate you going over your thoughts on me in a bit more detail, but if you have thoughts about who's more/less likely scum given the flips of LLD/Datisi or if you have any strong townreads you want to share I'd like to hear that too.

[Gammagooey]

messed up pronouns, my b dwlee

corrected version:

Dwlee was basically "sure this can maybe happen by deadline and I think it's got a better chance of flipping scum than Lavar at least", I don't have any confidence on my ability to read them with how limited their posting's been so far.

[Gammagooey]

Someone (I think Bell) asked to make sure that we didn't have a no elim because of Lavar possibly being loved (taking an extra vote to elim), & making sure unclaimed wacky role bullshit doesn't cause a no elim is basically no-risk all-reward

[Gammagooey]

That's kind of fair - you're pretty much the only medium/strong scum read I had yesterday aside from Bell who claimed fairly early on, and pretty much all the other votes I had were just "I like this wagon better than the Lavar wagon". (and my Lavar vote was both after the hammer and only to make sure an actual elim happened that day). Meuh and Dunn and Val were slight scum reads for me yesterday that I wasn't particularly confident on, and I felt that you were a better elim than any of those 3. Dwlee was basically "sure this can maybe happen by deadline and I think it's got a better chance of flipping scum than Lavar at least", I don't have any confidence on my ability to read him with how limited his posting's been so far.

so were u just tryna push a wagon thru?

When the day got to my 1010 I pretty much just wanted to wagon anyone who was Null or worse imo over Lavar if that was possible

Game Day 1 There were several people commenting that they thought Dunn was town and I didn't think voting them would actually be helpful at all, esp. considering that you stayed a major wagon until the last 2 real-life days or so if I remember correctly, and I had a stronger scumread on you than him. I'll be happy to vote him now though, even if I don't get what changed for other people from yesterday to today on him he is still a pretty good vote imo.
VOTE: Dunn

i dont really believe this, it reads just like an excuse. why would u care what everyone else thinks if ur genuinely trying to hunt? "stronger read on me than him" fair point though but ur read on me is trash soo

? Like the only time I could have voted Dunn game day 1 by the time I was scumreading him and I could have reasonably expected the wagon to be/become bigger than your usually 5+ vote wagon was right as the Dwlee wagon popped up, and Dwlee's wagon didn't wind up going through instead of Lavar with what felt like way fewer people chiming in saying Dwlee was likely town because *reasons* like they did with Dunn. Like Dunn might have been a more informative wagon than Dwlee just if he posted more b/c he was being wagoned, but we had somewhere around 24/30 hours before deadline and my goal was to try to help a wagon that I thought could be on scum get to a viable size and potentially become the elim over Lavar, not gain info from it being a counterwagon.

I agree! Would you like to join me on Dunn? Or would you prefer to talk about something else? I do actually appreciate you going over your thoughts on me in a bit more detail, but if you have thoughts about who's more/less likely scum given the flips of LLD/Datisi or if you have any strong townreads you want to share I'd like to hear that too.

no sorry, i dont want to join my scumread on a wagon, shocker there.

im not sure who is/isnt scum based on deaths, im not too good at nka, so i havent even tried that shit. do u have any thoughts?
like lld hasnt posted much so im not sure how ANYONE could draw any conclusion from the kill, like "its prob a kill based on her meta" is prob the best thing ive seen on that topic but ???? that totally limits down the list SO MUCH, like all it takes is for 1 scum to know her meta and then the rest will be chirping birds.

is enchant scum likely at all? i haven't paid attention to them all game i feel like

Already mentioned a few - Fey I think looks much better given the Datisi flip, VPB looks a bit worse, I personally think Cakez looks townier given how he interacted with Lavar and his 2nd half of D1 reads/comments on Datisi but some people disagree with me on that. For Datisi's death you can ignore all the WIFOM shenanigans that usually come with night kill analysis since the D2 mod-post extremely strongly suggests they were LLD's Invictus target, and I feel like you especially might get more out of it (assuming you're town) going over his D1 posting and other people's comments on him now that you know 100% that he was town - if you have time to reread a bit let me know what you think.

As for Enchant I think they're more likely scum than random and also despise letting people get away with posting literally substance-less garbage all game and then if they're scum everyone just goes 'lol oops guess we let them never post any kind of reads or anything else that could link them to their other scumpartners ohhh welll'

[Gammagooey]

VOTE: gorilla

started okay, mostly fell off, vote on lavar kind of bad, not a lot of scumhunting.

Don't do this cheeky garbage, if you really think gorilla is scum then make a decent argument for it

gorilla was my strongest town read yesterday and I still strongly think that he's town, he's been active in sharing reads/opinions and in trying push scumreads/wagons yesterday until deadline came up, and his reaction to VPB felt VERY don't-give-a-shit-town to me. His recent responses to Meuh reinforce that point even more.

I believe that gorilla is guilty of what they are accusing others of.

I think that their reaction to pressure felt over-defensive and made me want to vote them more. Them doubling down on their vote on me when they had little reason to and ignoring presented evidence to the contrary in reaction to my vote by saying they were "still fairly sure I was scum" was scummy.

He has not been as active in sharing reads/opinions as you make out here, and I will point out that they do seem to care a lot when they are being voted here.

I'm like 90% sure I could get more info about who gorilla is scumreading from his votes alone than I could about your scumreads from your entire iso

Do you have any scumreads aside from Gorilla atm? Do you have any new townreads since the Lavar/LLD/Datisi flips? Literally anything read-wise you can share to make yourself actually readable this game?

[Gammagooey]

I'm honestly still convinced Dwlee flips scum, and like scum saw town cakez and I go "dwlee maf" (scum in this world is always Gamma) Gamma was doing everything in their power to get us to go to enchant instead of Dwlee, so like, I really wanna flip Dwlee scum into Gamma scum, that I'm for CERTAIN on happens. but besides the point, cakez is my top TRP this game, Datisi was next TR, but dead now so since I was right on datisi, my confidence on the cakez tr is through the roof. I mean, I can try and put together something more "comprehendable" but Cakez's ISO is ALWAYS town, and then like seald the deal with "what an ass d1" like, scum does not say that right before a VT flip...

I don't get how you see me make one post asking people to consider voting Enchant yesterday, immediately get shut down by gorilla and jump onto the Dwlee wagon but suggest people Invictus Enchant, and conclude that I'm scum with Dwlee for it.

Like if I was scum I could have not voted Dwlee at all by voting Enchant or Dunn and staying there or just sticking to my marci vote instead of even making that post, because those wagons would probably go nowhere and it'd be easy to just watch the Lavar wagon go through anyway instead of actively trying to make an actual alternate viable wagon to Lavar happen.

I will say basically 80+% of the difference imo between Dwlee and Enchant is that I expect Dwlee to at least attempt to play the game in the near future based on their posting so far and past experience with them, compared to Enchant who's given every indication so far that they're not going to bother with any more effort or reads than is necessary to make a single empty vote at a time. Maybe my expectations for Dwlee are misplaced, but we'll see in the next few days.

[Gammagooey]

gorilla was my strongest town read yesterday and I still strongly think that he's town, he's been active in sharing reads/opinions and in trying push scumreads/wagons yesterday until deadline came up, and his reaction to VPB felt VERY don't-give-a-shit-town to me. His recent responses to Meuh reinforce that point even more.

I intend to look into this, Gamma if you could elaborate/give examples that would be helpful. I would definitely like to avoid wagoning someone's strongest townread if possible.

I'm not sure I have actual thoughts on Kovu dropping a reads wall on page 4 but I admire the spirit. Just don't wear yourself out, kid.

^Was very close to what I thought about the page 4 Kovu reads (in that I expect a page 4 readslist to be about as accurate as random.org, but being willing to put that much effort into the game is v. good for reading them and helpful for the game functioning well in the near future)

I'm not sure I have actual thoughts on Kovu dropping a reads wall on page 4 but I admire the spirit. Just don't wear yourself out, kid.

For Val, nulltown maybe? Tako genuinely could be scum though. I can agree that the content is not great there.

VOTE: LavarManos

This feels like fake nuance.

This is a strange take given they were directly asked to present reads on those two slots.

I think this would be a better point if they had made this kind of statement while just making comments on the game, and were forcing content

I'm not accusing him of forcing content. I'm accusing him of faking nuance by drawing a distinction between 2 posters who have been entirely insubstantial to this point.

^A good post that feels like town finding something that pinged them and pushing that very early on

Spoiler: gorilla posts talking to VPB

Still skimming, but is anyone else getting the feeling from the last couple of pages that Kovu really wants someone to scumread me for a lack of activity, and is getting frustrated noone is biting?

Wants literally anyone but Bell to be the yeet.

I mean, you are correct in that she has openly stated she doesn't want to elim Bell today. That's not really a secret.

The question follows: are you postulating that they are scum together?

Because that seems like such an over the top surface-level sort of worldbuilding that means you're either putting no thought into the game at all or are scum.

@gorilla - it's a pretty straightforward question. Why are you being obstinate?

Because I think it's self-evident what I meant with a little bit of critical thinking and given that you're bringing it back up to passive-aggressively attack me, I really don't care to answer. You either think you're being clever and trying to trap me or are being intentionally malicious, but in either case it's a waste of my time. Part of me says scum wouldn't be so inflammatory toward every single detractor this early on, but at this point I don't find this worth bothering with, so I'm going to do something else instead.

@gorilla - it's a pretty straightforward question. Why are you being obstinate?

Because I think it's self-evident what I meant with a little bit of critical thinking and given that you're bringing it back up to passive-aggressively attack me, I really don't care to answer. You either think you're being clever and trying to trap me or are being intentionally malicious, but in either case it's a waste of my time. Part of me says scum wouldn't be so inflammatory toward every single detractor this early on, but at this point I don't find this worth bothering with, so I'm going to do something else instead.

I try not to make assumptions about people's meanings and would rather ask "dense" questions, as Bell put it, than to take an implication as a given.

You've spent more energy not answering than simply stating clearly what you mean.

How many scum do you think are in that list? 1,2,3,4,5? This isn't passive aggressive, I actually want to know your meaning and thoughts. Christ.

Was a rough guess at a POE.

@ gorilla - Glad you brought up LLD, because that's a headscratcher when I look at your list. You say people like Fey, RR and myself landed in your PoE because we hadn't made an impression on you one way or the other, which I can understand.

But, I'm slightly confused how LLD made an impression on you (or dwlee or Val for that matter, but let's talk LLD since you have experience with them).

This is a case where Im not sure how valuable putting those reads under the microscope is because as said it's based on gut, reasons are thin, and I could easily change my opinion pretty quickly. Something about the feel of LLD disliking people putting her in reads lists with 0 posts didn't feel like something scum would focus on. Her posting was not particularly high impact but I would've anticipated her trying to make a stronger impact as scum.

Again, this is admittedly a very weak gut feeling. You're asking questions about what amounts to the wobbly grey area in the middle of my reads where I'm kind of guessing right now, so I'm not going to be able to give strong reasoning for anything. I'm not sure what you're hoping to get out of asking me why someone is more nulltown than nullscum to me.

The bluntness of his responses to VPB feels very town to me - cutting through VPB's cheeky statement about Val to get to a point of "do you actually think Val & Bell are scum together" is very good, #415 & #434 feels like gorilla just shrugging and saying basically "yeah it was an offhand comment/thought, I'm not that confident in it so digging deep into it isn't going to be helpful long-term" which I think makes a lot of sense when someone's badgering you about reads you're not confident on.

Imagine thinking sheeping a troll who is openly not playing the game and probably has <<<rand voting accuracy is a good idea. The type of player who would have been an easy policy kill back in the day.


Anyawy, go ahead and scrutinize me. What are you getting out of this, exactly?

Since when am I sheeping? I already said Enchant's vote prompted me to reevaluate you, and I drew my own conclusions from there. For you to be this dismissive of it all is odd.
Enchant being a policy lim "back in the day" doesn't somehow make you less scummy, I don't care. The fact this is the angle you're approaching my vote with makes me think you're not engaging with me in good faith.

I don't think scum were under any significant threat yesterday, and as such I believe we should look at people who were under-examined rather than simply revisiting people who were the main wagons on day 1 (marci, dwlee - although i'm still not totally sure about dwlee).

You mean we should look at people like you? Like what I'm doing at this very moment? You're pretty much the player who got the least pressure on day 1

I'm dismissing it because your case against me is bad and insubstantial. It's not like there's a lot for me to respond to.

Like, what do you expect me to say here? Do you expect me to go "oh no you're right, I am scummy"? Do you expect me to go back and quote the posts where I gave reads to prove to you that I totally was scumhunting? Would that actually prove anything to you? Because I doubt it would. If I went "oh here are all my reads this game for XYZ reasons" would you care? You're not approaching me like you care about my perspective on the game, you're approaching me like you've decided you want to lim me and anything I say to you is further proof of my scumminess.

You're either town who is tunneling for very bad reasons, or scum who is sensing an opportunity to push me. Even if you are town I think the likelihood of you getting persuaded by anything I say is pretty small.

^Also seems to me like he thinks someone pushing him has a pretty decent chance of being town, and is still willing to be super frank about what he thinks of Meuh's case & play and what he thinks the chances of actually getting through to her when she's playing like this are. It doesn't feel like a post scum makes to me over something shorter and less attention-drawing and likely less irritating to Meuh when if he's scum he's going to have to continue dealing with Meuh & her read on him in the future.

[Gammagooey]

also as a heads-up I've only been able to skim the last 4-5 pages and probably won't have time to go over things in detail and actually process it until either late tonight, or possibly tomorrow evening/night.

@Dwlee, to followup on what Fey said I'd be fine hearing about almost anything read-related from you, though reads that don't have more than "they are/were voting me" are going to be less helpful to me personally to read you than other stuff.
Like aside from Lavar you voted marci & VPB Day 1 - do you think they look any worse/better given the flips or their Day 2 play so far? (and if you're not caught up yet then just saying "I think this after reading up to page X" is fine) Or do you have an opinion on gorilla and/or Dunn's play so far and how they've interacted Day 2?

[Gammagooey]

I have made it through the swamp of quote-walls and cross-references and I'm caught up again at last

READS I HAVE THAT ACTUALLY MATTER

Dunn - Strongly feel that they should die. gorilla's said some similar stuff to what I'm about to (I have 1473 and 1485 in my notes in particular) but have a nice new condensed version with maybe a couple bonuses, freed from the wallpost swamp of the past.
A huge chunk of his iso for today has been nitpicking and gotchas of "NEVER SAID/DID THAT" instead of actually going over his reads in any detail, and I still have basically no idea what his reads are on the vast majority of the playerlist (he has scumreads on gorilla & cakez, and maybe still on marci I think. he's commented on VPB but as far as I see, not shared a read on him.) All the poking questions day 1 with no reads from him as followups followed by this feels like trying to keep an intentionally low profile and not give useful info for when he does get elim'd/invictus'd in the future. Also I think his push on gorilla is bad and feels more performative on his part than an actual effort to convince people that gorilla is scum and should die.

Dwlee- I wish they were townier than they are so Dunn had a better chance of being elim'd today. *The crowd to me: Are they actually town though?* My gut feeling is slightly town, and I have seen them as scum before which was not like this, but that scum game of theirs was 6 years ago and I have no confidence in them playing even remotely similar to their scum-game that long ago. I would love to see them go into a few of townreads b/c I think that could be readable for them. If you REALLY think they're scum I don't think I have a good argument to dissuade you at the moment, but I do encourage you to take another look at Dunn for me.

Cakez - GUTTOWN. Maybe not as strongly guttown as the all-capital letters would suggest, but they feel just like they did in Slaughter Hour to me and I think their votes on marci and Dunn were/are good and his iso just feels like *Cakez town things* and I don't think they're scum. This was maybe me saying the same thing in like 3 different ways but please deal w/ it.

Reads/Thoughts that maybe matter?

Meuh - some parts of Meuh's #1589 feel gross. Didn't like #833 originally and the explanation is *reasonable* but it feels more like scum jumping on town for doing something they did as scum and knowing they had justification for it,instead of town considering that as a possible scumtell but weighing it with their previous read/thoughts on Lavar. Some points in 4) also feel like overjustification, esp. this chunk:

4. There was a vote on Gorilla, I like voting where there's votes.
5. I wanted to see where the wagon went to assess Enchant better, like I did with Lavar on day 1.
6. While making my readslist, I realized how unsubstantial my read on Gorilla was at that point. Questioning myself on it, it felt like an odd read to let exist in spite of this.

Am also weirded out by the gorilla push instead of marci from her, and disagree with the gorilla/Cakez scumreads from her. She along with marci are my strongest non-Dunn scumreads, but I also feel that I'm much more likely to be wrong about either of them than Dunn. Speaking of:

Marci - Personally don't see pretty much any reason to townread her posting so far. 1385 and 1435 are decent but I definitely don't think they're unfakeable by scum. There's a lot of meta reads on her that I guess could be right even though I don't see it myself? I'm probably just going to think her posting is scummy unless/until she has a SHINING townread/scumread with reasons I don't think is likely to be faked by scum and it doesn't seem like she's going to put enough effort into the game for that to happen today.

Reads that probably don't matter right now

everything else. if you wanna know about a specific person bug me tho

[Gammagooey]

A huge chunk of his iso for today has been nitpicking and gotchas of "NEVER SAID/DID THAT"

It's not "nitpicking". Like, they're lying, right?

#1467 from you calls gorilla's #1463 weird when you don't get gorilla's point in him pointing out the invictus kill in the setup

It's specifically a response to Meuh regarding gorilla's post earlier

Bell's role is kind of surprising,

the ability for a player to conf-town themselves in this setup is really overpowering given the invictus mechanic.

The entire point of the post is that the extra kills make confirmed townies more powerful. gorilla could have condensed #1463 and gotten the point across a bit better but I agree with him that it's pretty easy to see what he's trying to get at there.


#1403 is you responding to a post that isn't even about you (Kovu's #1383) with basically "Quote it, I never said it, it's only Meuh doing that on the wagon". You're jumping on Kovu being wrong about the wagon in particular and making it about you and how you did nothing wrong instead of putting any effort into understanding where Kovu is coming from and addressing the actual issue she wants to talk about (Enchant is scummy as deemed by *some people*, why is Enchant worth following on gorilla now) & feels like an attempt to make you look better by pointing out that Kovu is wrong. Not an attempt to figure out either Kovu's alignment or the alignment of people she's talking about who wanted Enchant dead or Invictus'd (like Meuh or me - it'd be reasonable to guess that Kovu confused me or someone else who wanted Enchant gone as also wanting gorilla dead now, but you focused on making sure you weren't getting shit for it over getting to the bottom of what she was talking about and why)


Also, something I keep bringing up that you aren't asking about or responding to - do you have any townreads this game? Could you share, like two of them that aren't borderline conf. town already? I don't get how you expect people to actually read you correctly when it feels like you're treating your reads on the majority of the players as holy texts that nobody else is permitted to see.

[Gammagooey]

where im hung up on is that the tone in a lot of his responses... i just feel like i can feel the town energy in them. like 1234. and the sassiness in his responses to gorilla in 1296 and 1304. idk. it just seems like a really unnecessary attitude to take if he's scum, it's like guaranteed to make gorilla annoyed and likely won't accomplish much. I just don't really see the scum motivation behind that? maybe you do, thoughts?

Why is it town energy? What makes you think that the sass is from Dunn's alignment rather than his personality? Imo scum are more likely to be more dismissive instead of empathetic and (assuming that Dunn's scum) Dunn's #1296 & #1304 posts aren't *for* gorilla, they're for other people to see that Dunn doesn't think that gorilla's a threat and project confidence that gorilla doesn't have anything on him.

[Gammagooey]

Ugh, I feel like I'm just being yanked around by a string with putting in the effort to try to get Dunn elim'd and the wagons immediately swinging away from him onto a secondary scum read of mine because I'm not around mid-day when everyone's posting

On Dunn's readspost - The Lukewarm read feels a little self-serving given that Luke's 1606 that he mentioned was Luke scumreading Cakez for what he said about Dunn, though I am a bit biased on that given my current read on Dunn. The other townreads before the leans are fine, but the lean town reads I disagree with (for marci & Meuh), & was easily fakeable b/c of how vague it was (Dunn "liked some of what they posted")

I think I had something of Meuh's to respond to that I'll get to in a sec
@R&R - I think you mentioned you had a strong town read on Meuh earlier, can you go into a bit of detail on that for me? (or link/quote where you posted it earlier if you did and I'm just missing it)

[Gammagooey]

some parts of Meuh's #1589 feel gross

What feels gross about it, and do you think these “gross” parts make me scum?

I listed the parts I felt bad about literally immediately after part you quoted - in the 2nd part of your response to 3), I didn't like the original "I did it as scum so he's probably also doing it as scum" jump on Lavar without considering your previous read on him, and I wouldn't be surprised if you did that as scum to have a solid reason to scumread a town player. (though tbf I do think it can plausibly come from town or scum)
And in 4) the parts I quoted

4. There was a vote on Gorilla, I like voting where there's votes.
5. I wanted to see where the wagon went to assess Enchant better, like I did with Lavar on day 1.
6. While making my readslist, I realized how unsubstantial my read on Gorilla was at that point. Questioning myself on it, it felt like an odd read to let exist in spite of this.

just don't feel like a genuine town thought process to me, it feels like an overjustification of something you didn't actually put as much thought into as you're saying you did now.

There's like a minor mitigating factor in that fire was specifically asking for more of your reasoning on the gorilla read so part of the "overjustification" I felt may have been you going into more detail than usual to answer his question, but I still don't believe you were thinking about the parts I quoted at the beginning of Day 2 when the gorilla/marci thing was originally happening.


Also as an unrelated thing:

@Luke

My invictus will be on gorilla tonight. I don't feel bad about claiming this because I really don't think I will be targeted by mafia or that they benefit from shooting into that. I'm telling you this so you have somewhere to use your power role if you can't coordinate anything before an elimination is reached. I think it would not be a bad idea for a few people to do the same, but that for most people this would be a bad idea.

Okay yeah let's maybe not lim Dunn today

Also I just remembered a good bit of what had me clear Dwlee earlier was the LLD kill. Meh I guess that's relevant, but not enough to avoid limming an otherwise scummy player imo. This also makes me curious: could the mafia have like a doctor? (Who would then block invictus kills) That could be a way to mitigate town's power and make mass-targeting one person bad, right?

I would bet the game on scum not having a full doctor, it defeats the entire point of the Invictus mechanic. (scum needing to play around their nightkills potentially Invictus shots). scum had a bodyguard in the last Invictus game, and either that or something like 1-shot of any of doc/jailkeeper/mayyybe bulletproof (though that's pushing it) could potentially exist though.

[Gammagooey]

@VPB - I mentioned a few points on Dunn-scum in my reads-list and included two posts of gorilla's I agreed with in reference here: 1714

REALLY dislike that Luke's claimed power is a vig and that they want to kill gorilla with it of all people instead of like Enchant particularly and the way he went from *don't know if Dunn is town for that flurry of posts but maybe* to *sure I'll shoot who Dunn wants* with i actually being a vig. Part of that is probably that a lot of my scum reads are basically polar opposites from his but I'll reread later tonight and see if my hate for it still feels justified in hindsight

@Meuh that was me saying your big explanation post felt overexplainy at points, not VPB

p-edit: I have been ninja'd by like 7 posts

[Gammagooey]

to *sure I'll shoot who Dunn wants* with

it

actually being a vig

missed a letter in there

[Gammagooey]

@Lukewarm I made a gorilla towncase a couple days back to R&R - I don't need a full rebuttal or anything but what did you think of that at the time? And what do you think of me this game day?

I don't have time to dig through much of your iso atm, but your 1905 is a decent jumping off point for what I want to bug you about
My view of you+gorilla around then is that gorilla thinks your Dunn read is bad and mostly unjustified, and you're scumreading gorilla b/c you think that based on what he's saying about your opinion of Dunn, you think it'd make more sense from an outside perspective that Dunn would be white-knighting you or trying to pocket you, not that you two would be partners together. Is that close to correct for you?

I get your viewpoint there I think that from what you've said that you think that if Dunn is posting specifically towards you that you'd be town he's trying to convince instead of his scumpartner. But from gorilla's POV if it seems like you're letting Dunn off the hook easily for what gorilla sees as a bad reason to townread him, is it that outlandish for him to think you're potentially scum w/ Dunn because of it? Dunn directing his posts towards you in a way that feels like it's directed towards a potential town-you I feel like is a lot easier to see from your perspective than it is an outside one.

Also let me know if the wording of the above is confusing and I can try to rephrase it, but I think I got across at least the gist of what I mean.
Also also I think you've got like...maybe 15-30 posts left for today before you hit reserves? So if you want to wait until you're responding to something else and add that in that's fine too, I would very much prefer to not have a surprise literal last day before deadline replacement to deal with.

[Gammagooey]

4. Does everyone have access to Invictus?

• It can be expected that most or all players have access to Invictus.

I am operating under the assumption that scum have Invictus as well.

ok, so the scum have invictus in the original game. However, it does not appear there is a town killing ability in that game (skimmed, so maybe I missed it). That feels a bit broken to me if we assume all the scum can invictus.

I don't really see it that way? Gorilla mentioned earlier that town basically get 10 elims this game from this point assuming no other killing abilities for town and scum kill every night - if town get more kills scum having Invictus keeps a similar ratio (it goes from town having 2 elims and scum having 1 for each full day+night phase, to town having 3-4 elims vs scum having 1-2 elims each full phase (if town is hit with the vig there's another chance of their target hitting scum, if scum is hit then it's similar to adding a normal game's day/night phase with a scum elim which is still beneficial to town). It could also be like if scum have PRs then those scum don't also have invictus but that's getting v. deep into random speculation.

[Gammagooey]

@Luke - Again, you don't have to answer this right away b/c you're low on posts

but if Dunn flips scum, isn't that a pretty good reason to not vig/Invictus gorilla? Considering that he would be right about at least your reasons for finding Dunn-town being bad, if not (assuming you're town) your actual alignment? It feels like you're going all-in on gorilla scum even when a Dunn-scum flip objectively makes him much less likely to be scum.

[Gammagooey]

I'm gonna be tenatively hopeful that this wagon can actually happen

VOTE: Meuh

sup VPB

[Gammagooey]

^ that's p reasonable, I asked them about Meuh earlier too and they just haven't been around all week. Hopefully they show up by deadline instead of getting replaced, the last 20 pages have been a lot of noise to sort through but it'd be nice to see their takes on some of it before deadline

[Gammagooey]

@Meuh - who are your strong town reads atm? It might be in your iso already but I'm about to head out for an hour or so

[Gammagooey]

There is zero chance meuh and dwlee are both town.

Hi, Gamma, I'm interested in your dwlee thoughts and their play in recent pages.

I think their Meuh push could be right, and I'd personally be surprised if the way they were pushing for this game day was coming from scum (b/c pushing one thing, realizing its wrong, and then jumping to push another feels more than a bit suicidal) but it's still at least plausible for a scum-Dwlee without a lot of time to go for that approach. The "VPB+Meuh are scum together" bit from him feels pulled out of a hat, your "look who's back" on him is dumb and not a scumtell, he at least seems to believe in the verbal tic thing being a potentially valid scumtell regardless of their alignment in this game imo

I think there's more of a reason for Meuh to be scum than Dwlee here. Dwlee is to be fair kind of a mess and I'm a bit disappointed that they aren't slowing down and trying to find a few more townreads and/or things to comment on from other people from the muck of the past but I don't really expect that from Dwlee as either alignment.

I also doubt this will be particularly helpful to you but it's what I think so either deal with it or pick it apart and tell me why I'm wrong and maybe something useful can come out of that instead.

[Gammagooey]

guh messed up pronouns in one sentence

The "VPB+Meuh are scum together" bit from them feels pulled out of a hat, your "look who's back" on them is dumb and not a scumtell, they at least seems to believe in the verbal tic thing being a potentially valid scumtell regardless of their alignment in this game imo

[Gammagooey]

VOTE: Marcistar
Probably the best option at this point?
I'm feeling like my suspicion on VPB might be tainted by annoyance

didn't like the vp vote and wasn't really expecting to see this but i think i might like this post actually

VOTE: marci

let's do it

I don't like the post but I'm perfectly down for killing any of Dunn/marci/Meuh that can actually happen today
VOTE: marci

[Gammagooey]

@fire - marci hasn't done anything new except annoy Kovu and continue the *not doing shit* she's done the whole game, and it could be Meuh realizing that she's the main wagon and that marci's the next best option if a VPB wagon doesn't get off the ground

But on the other hand I think it could a)very easily be bussing or b)I could just be wrong about Meuh being scum so I'm very disinclined to give a shit when a wagon on an actual scumread of mine can go through instead of the one on Dwlee

[Gammagooey]

I don't particularly believe the claim. I guess I'll just say now I'm a bodyguard. I don't think multiple protectives in a game is full-stop impossible: the first setup had two town bodyguards and one mafia one. But a doctor in combination with a bodyguard is a bit weird, even if the doctor is gated.

It's also why I was...not particularly concerned with being townread when I was getting wagoned, because my role has the potential to be self-resolving if I guess the correct nightkill target.

I was on Lukewarm night 1, because he was in my top townreads after Day 1 (how times change), was reasonably active, and didn't seem to be suspected by many people, so seemed a potential nightkill target. Kicking myself for not protecting LLD after she got N1'ed in DEFCON, but I really didn't think there was any chance she'd be the nightkill target after posting only 12 times, which is also why I was theorizing that most of the day 1 wagons were wrong. My invictus had been on dwlee, because I thought it most useful to resolve the counter wagon with the invictus kill.

all glory to monke

before gorilla posted I was gonna say I wanted to kill marci 20% b/c doc *of some type* is a very easy possible scum claim when there's multiple possible investigatives claimed/hinting at claiming and 80% b/c she's still done nothing towny for 2 game days

now that makes it 70% half-counter claimed possible scum claim and 80% done nothing towny, which is 150% marci should die
MATH

[Gammagooey]

VOTE: Fey
It looks like Dunn and Meuh already went into this a bit but Fey definitely looks the worst from D1 play at a glance - was one of the people suggesting marci-town for meta, votes were Datisi->Bell->VPB->marci with a caveat that she doesn't even like the wagon->Dwlee

Dwlee investigate is understandable but Datisi investigate doesn't make sense to me personally - if you're gonna use a 2-shot detective role n1 and basically make it variant tracker, is theoretical Datisi-scum really going to make the kill when he's been tunnelled by marci all day? And remember this is from Fey's perspective so with a marci town-read she presumably wouldn't have "Marci+Datisi scumbuddies" as anywhere near a likely possibility given her d1 read on marci

I don't think it has more than a tiny chance of happening but no quick elims til after I can go over more stuff plz

----------------
This is somewhat obvious but prob needs to be said for whoever suggested Cakez dead just to stop neighborizing from happening given Val's claim - Cakez can presumably just stop using his neighborize ability at this point

Haven't done much re-reading aside from a skim of marci's iso and going over Fey a bit yet - I get why people are saying Cakez was overconfident on marci but I'm still leaning him-town. Meuh I'll probably go over more tonight, her gorilla & marci thoughts in particular were ???? but man does that feel borderline suicidal to do with marci as a scumpartner

Also I got a fruit and a T-shirt last night which probably came from VPB given his flip?

Yeah looking at EOD when Marci was giving her suspicions she had me/gorilla/Cakez. Just gonna rule of three this and move on assuming Cakez is a hit.

Didn't I just go on a rant about how "rule of 3" is dumb lazy garbo in Slaughter Hour? it's fine to use with other info but using on its own is terrible

[Gammagooey]

Gamma, do you think that Marci gave three reads in a place of pressure that did not include her partner?

Wouldn't be that surprised, but also think you're the one person in there most likely to flip scum

It also wasn't her "these are my 3 strongest scum reads" because if so then she'd probably feel forced to include me on it b/c she tunneled on me instead of trying to play the game all of day 2 until some actual pressure finally got put on her, if I remember right it was "these are 3 people who can possibly be elim'd instead of me", which is gonna be more reflective of other people's reads and wagons at the time and who CAN die, not just "oh let me throw out 3 reads and put a scum on them for distancing"

[Gammagooey]

Gamma, do you think that Marci gave three reads in a place of pressure that did not include her partner?

Wouldn't be that surprised, but also think you're the one person in there most likely to flip scum

It also wasn't her "these are my 3 strongest scum reads" because if so then she'd probably feel forced to include me on it b/c she tunneled on me instead of trying to play the game all of day 2 until some actual pressure finally got put on her, if I remember right it was "these are 3 people who can possibly be elim'd instead of me", which is gonna be more reflective of other people's reads and wagons at the time and who CAN die, not just "oh let me throw out 3 reads and put a scum on them for distancing"

I don't like the votes on Fey right now. Who are your other scum reads?

The 3 people that stuck out most to me when I went over marci's iso a bit overnight were Fey, Lukewarm (rip), & Kovu

Kovu's crossvote and push on marci felt like it came out of nowhere and seemed pretty plausible as a end of day distance/bus that went wrong and got attention when scum-marci didn't expect it to. Kovu's actual votes have been pretty mediocre aside from the one on marci imo, they're putting a ton of effort into the game but they're my personal pick for a potential deepwolf
Dunn & Meuh are leftover scumreads from yesterday - Dunn is still a fine vote even though I think marci would prob have refused to vote with me on Dunn yesterday regardless of Dunn's alignment, Meuh miiight still be too but I need to reread a fair bit and see how much that actually makes sense

p-edit: What makes you think Kovu is v. likely town aside from *effort* gorilla? Also when you're done reading up lmk who you're most confident on being scum atm

[Gammagooey]

I cannot agree with those reads. The marci lim never happens without Kovu and she has zero reason to call out a partner and throw a fit about how no one will listen to her like that. The suggestion is outrageous. I think you're significantly more likely to find a partner among those waiting in the wings, the ones who were fos-ing her occasionally but not applying strong pressure in her direction.

Calling it outrageous is p. overblown when scum need to find a way to survive through something like 4-7 more town-directed elims and the best way to do it is an actual bus that's genuinely convincing

But tbf Kovu's not gonna be my first or second choice today and I'm not gonna push particularly hard for anything until I actually go over stuff in more detail later so shrug city

[Gammagooey]

Also small thing but Gamma listing off my votes seems like. Contextless because my early vote was sure, pressure, but the rest of them were expressly to not vote Lavar.

Like I guess putting “caveat she doesn’t like the wagon” is... weird to me wrt Marci because I was actively doing something to dismantle a town wagon and I don’t... really need to vote a partner when I could just not at that point and not risk it. Dunno. It seems like a lot of work to just have one pet pocket that I protect.

I don't think the VPB vote was to vote not-Lavar? You had a post going over why you thought he was scummy if I remember right
For the Dwlee vote that makes sense, it's just that with your play this game being pretty backgroundy it feels like the best option for you as scum is to try to delay partner flips for as long as possible if you don't think you're going to live for all that long. Maybe that's not ideal when both you and marci aren't big factors in the game and one of you is v. likely to die eventually, but it seemed like there was enough of a mass of people preventing marci from getting elim'd day 1 that scum were likely helping it along somewhere. I can make an educated guess but when you've got time I wouldn't mind hearing more from you about the other people defending marci D1 and if they're scum b/c of it

Also in the interest of trying to work with everyone, I’ll self vote and be the lim today if every single townie points their Invictus shot at Cakez.

Self-voting is dumb
Fight for the shit you believe in, I may not agree with you but it's worth putting the arguments you've got out there instead of shrugging and accepting death

[Gammagooey]

Eh, I can stand to back off a bit too and try to make the game more chill and enjoyable
VOTE: Unvote

I gotta do some actual work but I'll be back tonight

[Gammagooey]

Like, Gamma is pretty clearly maf I think, so much just being there, never really taking a side, then magically tunneling me today?? like, right out of the gate, like "I have to get ahead of Kovu and push first!!" like, yeah I told Cakez a bunch I thought Gamma maf, but I've been telling fire that since Day 1, so it's like, if I'm questioning a hood, I question cakez.

Kovu I don't really get where you're coming from here (or what feels like several other points in the game tbf but I'll bug you about other stuff later) - I wasn't very active Day 1 and acknowledged that a couple times, but actively tried to convince people and in particular LLD to vote Marci over Lavar then, and then Day 2 put out a pretty clear reads-list on the people that were potentially elim wagons. I think calling it "magically tunneling" you is silly when basically all I've said about you today is that I think you could be a potential scum partner of marci with the like 40 min of reading I did over night 2 and I started the day voting Fey.
Do you mean that I haven't talked about/to you specifically that much? That much would be true at least, before the marci flip you were a townlean of mine and I feel like most of the game prob has you as some sort of townread for a combination of the effort you've put into the game and your style of charging out with reads on people and changing them at the drop of a hat.

Frankly I very much doubt you're going to get elim'd today and I'm not even trying to convince people to vote you at the moment. The point of saying "Kovu is one of the people that I think has questionable interactions with marci" isn't to railroad your elim through before you can post, it's to discuss it with people and talk about the previous days and figure out wtf is/was going on in the game and why.

If you've got issues with my play aside from my mention of you+marci, I encourage you to bring it up, but otherwise I'd like to ask you to not necessarily drop your scumread on me, but at least look back at my iso briefly and see if you still think I make sense as scum with marci after a 2nd look. I tried to get marci elim'd with most of the effort I put into day 1 until I thought it was clear that enough people (including yourself) had dropped off the wagon to the point it was no longer possible that day, and then still tried my best to make wagons that could potentially land on scum happen by encouraging wagons that weren't on my townlean of Lavar.

--
Gonna be reading for a bit, bug me if ya want but it'll prob take me a bit to go through everything that I want to and actually make conclusions on it

[Gammagooey]

I'm leaning pretty hard towards a scumteam of Fey+Dunn+a mystery 4th atm. (I don't think 5 scum is likely and even if that's the case I don't think it really changes anything I'm about to go over).
For Fey, first I wanna say that I think that them getting emotional today could come from either alignment and that regardless of their alignment the position they're in this game is stressful. I don't think Detective fits nearly as well as Val's Traffic Analyst claim does given Bell's Friendly Neighbor+other Neighbors/izer that have been claimed and I don't get why she'd investigate Datisi in particular over other players when marci & VPB specifically were scumreading/commenting on Dats by the end of day 1 and she'd need to target specifically the scum player making the kill. She pushed marci-town early and then mostly dropped out of the game aside from pushing Dwlee day 2. The lack of activity is actually pretty null imo, but I brought up that day that I agreed with her point that relying on LLD's reads to semi-clear people was a bad idea for marci particularly when she was pushing for Dwlee scum, and that never got acknowledged by her even as marci continued doing basically nothing, which should have fit her idea of marci freezing up. And there's the random marci reads on Fey that Meuh pointed out, town with no reasoning d1 and then swapping to scum for a "weird post" d2 2088 and explaining later that it's because of her vote on the Dwlee wagon 2216, which unless I'm missing something was only mentioned by marci here before that:

guys tbh just looking at dwlees iso in that game and remembering my memory of how he acts as town

i feel like he does more as scum than he has here

Like individually I think a few of those could come from Fey-town, but I don't think it all does together.

For Dunn, it mostly just comes down to me still hating his day 1 and early day 2 play. His question to Cakez just asking "what about me?" in response to Cakez saying she (marci) is not really scumhunting is bad, and yes I know Dunn will say that he wasn't voting anyone either, the point is that thinking marci wasn't scumhunting was perfectly reasonable and true and Dunn decided to pick at the fact that he wasn't voting either instead of addressing the actually valid part of Cakez's argument. He also talks to/about marci a bit & discusses her arguments for Datisi scum (you can look up these on Meuh's 2233 instead of me pulling up the same posts) but doesn't actually make a stand on her alignment until day 2 (w/ post 1234), before that it's just pokes and questions without an actual read on marci being shared, and later he goes back on it for Luke's reasons to townread marci instead of having any of his own. I still think a ton of his posts through the first two days feel more like nitpicks and arguments he's trying to win or look good in than actually get reads on understand the points of who he's talking to, and I think that type of behavior is much more likely to come from scum than town.

Meuh I've read over pretty much her whole iso now at this point and still feel conflicted. One thing I wanna bring up is that I think that Meuh & Dunn are pretty damn unlikely to be scum together. The gorilla pushes, and now the Fey push, and the way they behaved around marci is just too similar in a game where any scumbuddy could die at any time to Invictus and one person's read on you can end your life, and I think it makes a lot more sense that Meuh got blinded by her friend's play than Dunn. If I'm wrong about Dunn then I think she's at least a reasonable guess at scum, but also I think it's likely I was overly tunneled on her gorilla push - I still don't like it and it's probably going to be bouncing in the back of my brain every now and again until either she's deceased or the game's over, but if I put most of that aside, I do think her point about scum seeing the setup as more town-sided than it is and vice-versa was more likely to come from a town mindset than scum even if I don't agree with its conclusion of gorilla being scum, her marci questioning+mentions day 2 in particular were generally reasonable and definitely at least felt better than the random pointless pokes it felt like Dunn was giving to marci, and similar to her point on gorilla I like her post 1287 where she goes over what she thought was iffy about Cakez and reconsiders a bit that she may have disliked where Cakez's focus was but acknowledges that she's not sure how justified that was in retrospect.

Cakez I feel like I understand at least partly where the reads are coming from, in that Cakez has felt fairly lazy this game imo but has also been both aggressive towards particularly marci-scum but to a lesser degree other people who scumread him (gorilla, Lukewarm, & Val around #1306) and was correct on both of Lavar & marci, and I totally get that it feels weird for him to be all of lazy+aggressive+correct on both elims so far. He probably deserves some extra scrutiny for that, but I still don't think his pushes make him likely scum.
----------------------------------
It's like 2:40am so I'm stopping for the night here. I'll do my best to pick this back up tomorrow night, but I Would like other people's thoughts on the above if you have time and/or you've got a strong opinion on either of Fey/Dunn (doesn't have to be long but I'd very appreciate a couple sentences of "I agree/disagree/see where you're coming from but X/etc" )

[Gammagooey]

Yeah the first half of the post I put into my personal PT, I spent like 6 hours reading the game yesterday. I was pretty much finished with everything I had posted up to the end of the section on Dunn, started reading through Meuh in more detail and wanted to make sure I didn't fuck up and lose the entire post by accidentally closing the wrong tab or iso'ing in the tab I was making the post in, and threw what I had so far in the personal PT around 11pm my time after a --the next post is a draft post-- message in the personal PT since the first post in there said it could be used for drafts if it was clear they were draft posts.
I took a break til around midnight and then I think kept typing up the Meuh section in preview there while reading from then until around like 2:15ish and then copy+pasted what I had back to the main thread and finished up there- I can check if the preview for that already puts the link in there but if idk if ya'll care about that minutia

[Gammagooey]

Yeah if you hit preview in the PT then it fills in the link in the main block of text when you do

Code: Select all

[post]numbers[/post]

I'll ask Prism to make sure first but if it's ok then I can share the 11pm draft of the post I had typed up

[Gammagooey]

@Kovu - I think gorilla had a point day 2 I think it was that a couple of Enchant posts (when Enchant talked about potentially allowing themselves to be vigged) were more likely to come from town.

now, am I willing to bet the game on that? absolutely not and I will be pretty surprised if they're not dead within the next 2 day/night cycles. I also have no comment on whether or not I personally will have my invictus on Enchant tonight.
Do I want to elim them over one of Fey/Dunn today though? Not really.

also I'm still not actually voting yet am I
VOTE: Dunn

@gorilla if you have some overall Cakez thoughts I'd like to hear them before the end of the day - I get the points regarding him + marci but I'd like to know what you think of his overall play/attitude so far this game particularly.

[Gammagooey]

…Gamma that’s like saying that y appeared townie because they said they don’t fear death, only letting the town down *patriotic tear*

SALUTE, SOLDIER

[Gammagooey]

Can you quote for me what you think I should respond to, SirCakez?

I mean it's kind of obvious given the votecount that you're likely to get elim'd today and you're not trying particularly hard to prevent it - I don't even think it's a scumtell but it seems kind of dumb regardless of your alignment

You seem to think Fey+Cakez are the most likely scum - do you think they're likely to both be scum together? or are they just your two strongest scumreads? I personally think it's likely that you & Fey are scum together, do you think that's reasonable from my perspective or dumb for any reason aside from you starting the day with a vote on her?

You've got big "do what you want I don't care" vibes going at the moment but I feel like that's not gonna be beneficial for you here regardless of whether you're town or scum compared to sharing some extra thoughts on the game.

[Gammagooey]

(I'm stealing something fire said, but like, I noticed it too)

Sooo are all of yall ignoring the fact Dunn was at e-1 and enchant didn't hammer that? Like from enchant's POV, dunn like has to be maf here.. Enchant didn't want to hammer Dunn? ok, so enchant thinks dunn is town. then who are the 3 possible names for scum?

eh, Enchant can answer the specifics themselves but I can think of a possible guess from Enhant's POV

Also you do realize given how big you've said your neighborhood with fire is that you two have probably put probably like 25-50 times or more effort into the game than Enchant has right? Tbf you two have prob put more effort in than everyone left alive at this point but like expecting Enchant in particular to be thinking the same way you are with very minimal effort from Enchant's part I don't think is realistic no matter what Enchant's alignment is

[Gammagooey]

Fey has your read on either of Cakez or I changed much since Day 2? You made a votecount analysis then saying that Cakez & I were the possible scum on Dwlee's wagon with Dwlee as likely scum and marci as likely town and it just feels like you never stopped and reconsidered those reads on any of marci or cakez or me.

Like I get that I COULD be wrong on Cakez, but I also really don't see a reason to rule out that this is just Cakez being lazier than Slaughter Hour but actually hitting some correct reads this time. And I know I've brought up that game before and you didn't have much to say, but it's the last game I played on-site and me nailing two scum to the wall there and then getting voted out because people thought I was more likely scum bussing than Gamma Emerald at the very end was disappointing despite how much I tried to rehab the game back into something enjoyable at the very end, and I don't want to do that to someone else when I feel like you and Dunn and even gorilla despite how town I think he is hasn't slowed down and seriously considered the possibility that Cakez is just town doing WELL here, despite the relative lack of effort he's put into the game so far.

[Gammagooey]

@Enchant stop shitposting for a minute and give an actual answer to Kovu about who you think the scumteam is atm

[Gammagooey]

@Meuh - Dunn Fey and a deepwolf - probably one of fire/Kovu, and if I had to say this instant I'd say Kovu. I know that people will think that opinion is garbo but I really think that one scum has likely been putting a ton of effort into the game and set themselves up to actually live through the ridiculous number of Invictus shots this game has, because otherwise you're just asking to get gunned down halfway through the game by random Invictus shots.

[Gammagooey]

@Meuh - Dunn Fey and a deepwolf - probably one of fire/Kovu, and if I had to say this instant I'd say Kovu. I know that people will think that opinion is garbo but I really think that one scum has likely been putting a ton of effort into the game and set themselves up to actually live through the ridiculous number of Invictus shots this game has, because otherwise you're just asking to get gunned down halfway through the game by random Invictus shots.

The thing is that effort isn't really something you just assign players?
Like if scum ended up with none of the players in the game putting a very high amount of effort in, that doesn't mean suddenly one of them is going to change their playstyle for that purpose.
Scum might just be significantly losing rn, who knows? I don't see why we'd make the assumption they weren't.
It's optimal for scum to have high effort players yes but no one in the history of mafia has ever played a game optimally.

You're right about the *effort* in general being more player-based than alignment-based a lot of the time

But if scum is all in <Enchant/Fey/Dunn/you> then I think they've set themselves up to lose by not having one player bus convincingly or make some sort of claim shakeup to try to salvage the game here, gorilla I've had a strong town read on the whole game and has made a likely suicidal claim of bodyguard, Cakez doesn't make sense as scum with my two strongest scumreads of Fey/Dunn, and Val I guess I am overlooking a bit because of the traffic Analyst claim fitting tbh? Fey/Dunn/Val does make sense too tbh, I just haven't given it really any thought until now since them both claiming PRs today made it much more likely that one of them gets elim'd in the near future.

[Gammagooey]

Cakez doesn't make sense as scum with my two strongest scumreads of Fey/Dunn

Why?

also if you swap Fey and enchant we're at almost the same place

also I think Val was towny even before the claim, what're your issues there? I still think you can easily be scum btw but S_S thinks you're pretty hard town so I'm deferring to him

~Rhyme

Fey & Dunn have both been going after Cakez from Day 2 and have continued to go after him today, Cakez has been pushing Dunn pretty solidly and repeatedly pushed to kill marci - i guess it's technically possible that their solution to salvage the game is/was "turn it into a big bussing clusterfuck" but I feel like it's rarer for scumteams to actually go for that than maybe it should be?

Val I also had as a town-lean and I haven't done much rereading on, though I don't think from memory that there's a ton to go on in previous days, just a few comments to marci that I think were meh contrasted with his day 2 posts seeming town but not outstandingly so. Regardless I'm confident on my Fey+Dunn reads that at least one of them is scum there and I personally think likely both, whereas assuming that I'm right on both of them my 4th scum read is more guessing than anything I'm willing to stake on atm.

[Gammagooey]

@Meuh - Dunn Fey and a deepwolf - probably one of fire/Kovu, and if I had to say this instant I'd say Kovu. I know that people will think that opinion is garbo but I really think that one scum has likely been putting a ton of effort into the game and set themselves up to actually live through the ridiculous number of Invictus shots this game has, because otherwise you're just asking to get gunned down halfway through the game by random Invictus shots.

The thing is that effort isn't really something you just assign players?
Like if scum ended up with none of the players in the game putting a very high amount of effort in, that doesn't mean suddenly one of them is going to change their playstyle for that purpose.
Scum might just be significantly losing rn, who knows? I don't see why we'd make the assumption they weren't.
It's optimal for scum to have high effort players yes but no one in the history of mafia has ever played a game optimally.

You're right about the *effort* in general being more player-based than alignment-based a lot of the time

But if scum is all in <Enchant/Fey/Dunn/you> then I think they've set themselves up to lose by not having one player bus convincingly or make some sort of claim shakeup to try to salvage the game here, gorilla I've had a strong town read on the whole game and has made a likely suicidal claim of bodyguard, Cakez doesn't make sense as scum with my two strongest scumreads of Fey/Dunn, and Val I guess I am overlooking a bit because of the traffic Analyst claim fitting tbh? Fey/Dunn/Val does make sense too tbh, I just haven't given it really any thought until now since them both claiming PRs today made it much more likely that one of them gets elim'd in the near future.

Okay but look at that pool.
I am town
Fey and Dunn were seemingly just not around near EOD
Enchant literally can't bus convincingly based on playstyle

So... yes I think ordinarily they would try something of the sort, but within the circumstances? It sounds pretty much impossible

If the scumteam is literally Fey/Dunn/Enchant then I don't really think it's possible for town to lose this game and tbf MAYBE every like 1 in 10 games you get lucky and the game really is that simple

But I do have a decade worth of games on site and a nice little wiki page to display most of 'em that tend to have a lesson of "if you assume the scumteam all played bad and you've solved the game early, you will probably get your shit rocked in unless you continue putting in effort as town and at least consider unlikely people as scum and re-read and discuss things to see if that's actually the case"

[Gammagooey]

Dunn, you and Fey's posts Day 1 and Day 2 look to me like they could easily share a goal of interacting with marci while not actually applying any pressure to her at all (which I've gone over in my last big reads post with you and Fey in 2441). The other major issue I have is that except for your interactions on page 3 of the game, it doesn't seem like either of you two give any attempt to try to read the other until you come out with a case on her at the start of Day 3. Granted, I don't think Fey was ever a significant wagon on days 1 or 2, but you were, and when you were Fey just continued pushing Dwlee, mentioned that Meuh was an option she'd consider too, and once your wagon had passed you just both mention that you have the other as null.


I'm putting the interactions I found significant between you two below - If I missed any interactions before day 3 between you two that you think are significant, pull 'em up or give a post # and let me know
-You two had a little back and forth discussion on page 3 where you both townread each other
-There's a bit from you about Kovu/Fey being on alts in a different game
-You ask marci some questions that maybe could theoretically in the future lead to a scum read on marci but don't and Fey actively says that marci is town for not freezing up/meta/etc
-Fey puts you as flat null in her votecount analysis of the Day 1 Lavar/Dwlee wagons and doesn't mention you at all
-Dunn wagon starts with more people than gorilla+me around page 66, Fey had voted Dwlee earlier and continues pushing on him here

I was Dwlee’s partner in Geriatric, lmao.

Anyways.

Don’t be feely vote for Dwlee.

-You also don't mention Fey at all in your readslist when I finally drag it out of you day 2 in 1723
-Fey says to Dwlee she's pretty tunneled on them dying and that she'll entertain a Meuh wagon if people want to kill her, asks Dwlee what about the posts he quoted from Dunn are appeasing

Dwlee can you now explain how what you post in 1711 relates to this game

So you've pointed out something in another game, but where does it come up in this game? The so-called derisive OMGUS, as it were.

Also I'm interested in what the tonal differences you mentioned in 1660 are

You are being more differential I think. Like posts like these feel very appeasy is the way I would put it, which is also what Noraa has described as being your scum game

What part of these are appeasing...?

-You mention Fey again here

Fey, Enchant are null and I don't have a good grasp on them. Fey stands out as not usually being this reserved, I think.

-Fey mentions you here

Anyways,

Still voting Dwlee, if that wagon's not a thing then RIP. I don't actually know how to read Dunn.

If Meuh flares up I'll go there. Sure. Why not.

And I think that's it until Day 3 starts and you start with a case and a vote on her.

[Gammagooey]

I think your analysis fails to consider that we were both low posting on day 1, so you say "look, they ignored each other" a few times but it doesn't mean anything. Likewise I didn't push anybody strongly on day 1, and you're pointing to that for me being aligned with Marci. I don't mention Fey in my reads list because you asked me for my townreads and Fey was not one of those. Later I say they are null which explains why I also haven't pushed them either.

The page 3 stuff and the alts in a different game stuff I don't think are good points. Fey acting shady around me might be true, but that's not on my hands.

I don't think 1745 or 2061 are significant. Or rather, you haven't assigned any meaning to them. 1745 is a dig at Dwlee and also pointing out the obvious flaw in Dwlee's argument

The alt post I included literally only to make sure I didn't miss anything that you Might think was significant, the page 3 immediate townreads on each other aren't damning but I still think is an interaction that scum would try pull off to benefit from (by leading other people towards townleaning each other) My point is that you and Fey have basically nothing imo in your isos that look like you're trying to sort each other, or really anything that looks like an attempt to sort each other aside from the brief super early page 3 interaction, until Day 3 comes, you come out with a case on Fey with your first post that it at least seems like you're no longer pushing, Fey's position on you is still "maybe Dunn's scum but I like how he's approaching things". My point is that I think that prior to day 3 your interactions look ideal for scumbuddies trying to protect marci and not draw attention to the other, and that right after marci dying you potentially bussing Fey and then dropping off to go on Cakez instead makes for you-scum to do.

You said earlier that sircakez and fey are not likely to be aligned. Why? In fact Fey mentions SirCakez ONE TIME in the first 2 days of the game, and it's here:
*quotes and words and words and words*

Quote where Fey goes after SirCakez on day 2.

Looking back, you are right that Fey didn't go after Cakez Day 2 aside from the mention of him being potential scum on the Dwlee wagon - you were pushing Cakez day 2 but Fey didn't start really pushing on Cakez until Day 3 and I was wrong on that. I want to ask you though, do you think that Cakez is actually likely to be scum with Fey, or is this something that you think I'm wrong about the details of but don't have an opinion on the actual conclusion? Because tbf there is less interaction between Cakez and Fey than I thought there was, but I still very much doubt that these posts from Cakez D1 are interacting with a scumpartner:

Spoiler: 2 cakez posts

I could sheep Luke on Val from the case in 530
I think especially the points about 390 and 405 are solid, those Val posts didn't make any sense and seemed way too self-focused which I expect more from scum. And the point that Val is not really sorting just staying focused on like two things is also solid.

To save the posts for you of asking/questioning, etc, I'm Ydrasse.

oof I was getting ready to townbin Fey but now I'm not sure :/
Ydra is good enough to have faked everything Fey has done so far

Also it's weird to frame this as... an excitement thing, like. What. That doesn't make sense that you have to qualify it as excited = town or whatever you're doing here.

the most recent game i played with you is the one i'm using to read your emotional state as that game you linked was six months ago. you were EXTREMELY excited to play town in spring fling and i know you dislike playing wolf.

your argument with me early game felt like you were grasping at something to use to appear as if you're solving when you didn't feel like playing.

like if this is accurate Ydra is more likely scum here because I haven't really felt any passion or excitement from any of their posting

Also it's weird to frame this as... an excitement thing, like. What. That doesn't make sense that you have to qualify it as excited = town or whatever you're doing here.

the most recent game i played with you is the one i'm using to read your emotional state as that game you linked was six months ago. you were EXTREMELY excited to play town in spring fling and i know you dislike playing wolf.

your argument with me early game felt like you were grasping at something to use to appear as if you're solving when you didn't feel like playing.

Oh, I think I understand part of the disconnect here.

I play radically different on Ydrasse compared to my alts. Even if it's not different... logically I guess, I can't change how I think, I tend towards being... more like this during them. The alts that are obviously me but I don't out and say it but I type fancier.

Ydrasse is me as... Ydrasse, socially. This is me as Me, sort of Ydrasse, sort of not.

Also... I don't dislike playing wolf at all... in fact I enjoy it a lot, maybe more than town, just not when I roll it 10 times in a row.

how would you say Fey is different?

More sircakez votes. Please and thank you.

this push is just so obviously faked
what is Bell even so convinced off of here? I was on vacation for the entirety of the game to this point. and he even conceded that my attempt at content (which wasn't even great) during my V/LA was okay. but then he just rewinds and goes back to this. there's no town flow to his posting here.

This is a game I am in.

Oh yeah I would for sure wagon this too

or that Fey's push Day 3 is on a scumpartner. Even assuming the Cakez posts above are coming from scum (which I still disagree with being likely), I would think Cakez above post would be more likely to be scum pushing on a townie than one pushing on a scumbuddy.

---------
Have one or two more things to say in a few minutes, haven't had much time to post til today

[Gammagooey]

do you think that Cakez is actually likely to be scum with Fey, or is this something that you think I'm wrong about the details of but don't have an opinion on the actual conclusion?

actually this question is dumb of me given your next post about it

I still think you're glossing over Cakez's D1 posts about Fey (or haven't reread them in a while) but you at least seem to believe that Fey & Cakez are potentially scum together if you're town here

[Gammagooey]

I think the main thing I wanna get across at the moment is that given the marci scum flip I really think people should be focusing on that and voting for the person who makes the MOST sense with marci, and I still think that's Fey or Dunn.

And yeah surface-level that's obvious as hell, but I still just don't think Cakez is that and it feels like it's getting overlooked because Cakez's current posting is mediocre and its been hard to get another wagon through.
If ya'll REALLY think that out of everyone here Cakez is the most likely person to be scum with marci here then it seems like you've likely got the votes, so make your arguments for that (which a few of you have already done) and do it, but otherwise I really just want everyone to reset and just go back through people's posting around marci and go for who they think fits that best - the Cakez and Enchant wagons in particular just feel like distractions to that to me, and after the first scum flip of the game I want to refocus everyone on that.

[Gammagooey]

Since I didn't respond to this earlier and you're mentioning it again

thats to say that i think gamma is wrong about kovu but i think its kinda towny that he thinks that. i also think that for similar reasons, he's wrong that meuh and dunn can't be scum together as he said in 2441. he used similar logic of how they were too closely aligned in their position throughout the game and... sometimes that just happens. i don't think thats a valid way of ruling out scum pairings. people don't look at someone after they flip and go, "hey, this other slot followed almost their exact same trajectory and position in the game, they must have been scum partners!" that just doesn't really happen. so im not even sure what the argument is for why two similarly positioned people can't be paired

It's typically not *hey a scumbuddy did literally the exact same thing*, it's usually *hey, X wagon was bad, there's probably at least one scum on it* or *there's scum at the start/middle/end of this wagon* or *Y is obvtown, one of the people pushing that has to be scum*

A lot of the time, they're dumb assumptions pulled out of someone's ass, but playing into those dumb assumptions will still make you more likely to be elim'd as scum, and decent players will try to avoid that by not doing making the exact same pushes as a scum partner. Hell, if you want to you could even call this an assumption I'm pulling out of my ass, but DGB in the old days used to try to not have any scum on the main D1 wagon at all and wacky shit like that to subvert what people expect scum to do, and I still think good players now will tend to avoid looking too similar to their partners just to avoid extra attention being put on them for having similar stances in case a flip or potential assumptions/ideas come up that could put multiple partners in danger at once.

[Gammagooey]

@mostly R&R and gorilla -
I'd still prefer Dunn over anyone else atm but could we talk a little more about Fey since the day is stalling out a bit?

I can see pretty clearly where gorilla's coming from and I think I see where R&R is coming from (in that Fey's posts getting emotional, particularly #2388 #2392 which do seem town when looked at apart from the rest of her play), but I think that the vast majority of that kind of emotional posting is more due to the personality of the player making them than their alignment. Tbf I'm not even completely sure if it's those posts in particular, but if it is R&R, could you explain why you don't think Fey would post that as scum as well as town? Like I can pretty easily see her getting frustrated as either alignment as I've already said, and for that in particular I can see her as scum or town thinking that it's very stupid for you to prioritize getting a neighborhood over considering her more as town/considering Cakez as scum, and also it did seem like there was a bit lost in translation there where the assumption was on Fey's end that Cakez would still be alive the next day, and I don't think I understood that completely the first time either given that I think your plan was *elim fey->if town then cakez dies but also the neighborhood between specifically Bell & you (NOT including the dead-that-night Cakez) would still go through*.

p-edit:

At this point I'd rather just let someone in the POE dictate the elimination, with the agreement that if they're wrong everyone should invictus them.

I don't want to continue doing this in future days b/c I think it prob leads to the same type of shots that the Invictus's have been so far, but if the risk of having guns pointed at me if I'm wrong is what it takes for a Dunn elim to actually happen today than I'm willing to do it

[Gammagooey]

Looks like my theory was right

which theory?

The Marci/Gorilla scumteam one

If you are right you can nominate me for twat of the year for scumreading you for voting/casing gorilla over marci in the first place

Gorilla who did you guard last night?

[Gammagooey]

Looks like my theory was right

which theory?

The Marci/Gorilla scumteam one

If you are right you can nominate me for twat of the year for scumreading you for voting/casing gorilla over marci in the first place

i also think this makes meuh very unlikely paired with gorilla. calling out two partners as S/S on d2 seems kinda throwy

this is like 90+% devil's advocate/my own annoyance talking

but I'm p. sure you mentioned some of the gorilla/marci posting from Meuh being potentially tmi before - would gorilla being scum make it feel substantially different to you? And regardless of whether gorilla flips scum, does her potential tmi on marci feel that different from Cakez's pushes on marci that you thought could be bussing?

[Gammagooey]

Gorilla do you still think Dunn is likely scum too or has that changed since yesterday? You commented on the first part of my *big thoughts* post yesterday but not on my idea that Dunn+Meuh weren't likely scum together. Do you think that's reasonable or dumb thinking on my part?

Meuh I've read over pretty much her whole iso now at this point and still feel conflicted. One thing I wanna bring up is that I think that Meuh & Dunn are pretty damn unlikely to be scum together. The gorilla pushes, and now the Fey push, and the way they behaved around marci is just too similar in a game where any scumbuddy could die at any time to Invictus and one person's read on you can end your life, and I think it makes a lot more sense that Meuh got blinded by her friend's play than Dunn. If I'm wrong about Dunn then I think she's at least a reasonable guess at scum, but also I think it's likely I was overly tunneled on her gorilla push - I still don't like it and it's probably going to be bouncing in the back of my brain every now and again until either she's deceased or the game's over, but if I put most of that aside, I do think her point about scum seeing the setup as more town-sided than it is and vice-versa was more likely to come from a town mindset than scum even if I don't agree with its conclusion of gorilla being scum, her marci questioning+mentions day 2 in particular were generally reasonable and definitely at least felt better than the random pointless pokes it felt like Dunn was giving to marci, and similar to her point on gorilla I like her post 1287 where she goes over what she thought was iffy about Cakez and reconsiders a bit that she may have disliked where Cakez's focus was but acknowledges that she's not sure how justified that was in retrospect.

Since I didn't respond to this earlier and you're mentioning it again

thats to say that i think gamma is wrong about kovu but i think its kinda towny that he thinks that. i also think that for similar reasons, he's wrong that meuh and dunn can't be scum together as he said in 2441. he used similar logic of how they were too closely aligned in their position throughout the game and... sometimes that just happens. i don't think thats a valid way of ruling out scum pairings. people don't look at someone after they flip and go, "hey, this other slot followed almost their exact same trajectory and position in the game, they must have been scum partners!" that just doesn't really happen. so im not even sure what the argument is for why two similarly positioned people can't be paired

It's typically not *hey a scumbuddy did literally the exact same thing*, it's usually *hey, X wagon was bad, there's probably at least one scum on it* or *there's scum at the start/middle/end of this wagon* or *Y is obvtown, one of the people pushing that has to be scum*

A lot of the time, they're dumb assumptions pulled out of someone's ass, but playing into those dumb assumptions will still make you more likely to be elim'd as scum, and decent players will try to avoid that by not doing making the exact same pushes as a scum partner. Hell, if you want to you could even call this an assumption I'm pulling out of my ass, but DGB in the old days used to try to not have any scum on the main D1 wagon at all and wacky shit like that to subvert what people expect scum to do, and I still think good players now will tend to avoid looking too similar to their partners just to avoid extra attention being put on them for having similar stances in case a flip or potential assumptions/ideas come up that could put multiple partners in danger at once.

[Gammagooey]

Gorilla is locktown. If you disagree with that statement, I'd love to see the case for why it is wrong.

locktown is dumb when scum had a bodyguard in the last game and gorilla's posting in the 2nd half of yesterday was very mediocre
having said that I still think his day 1 play in particular was great so if you wanna have a regular-ass townread on him that's fine

I'm prob not voting until everyone shows up at least once today unless there's a very good reason to do so btw, R&R thoughts and what Fey+Dunn think given the Cakez flip both seem nice to have at this point

[Gammagooey]

Question 1) Why did you ask gorilla who he guarded last night(2850) and like not follow it up with anything? like, usually when people ask questions there's thoughts to whatever the answer is

If he had claimed to have guarded anyone but Val I would have asked why - him bging anyone else could theoretically come from town trying to block a kill on conf. town but would have needed a damn good reason to do it from gorilla over protecting the investigative role, and the thought process behind that might have been useful. "I protected Val but was roleblocked" doesn't have anywhere else to go from there except setup speculation which isn't really what I want to get into yet.
Now that everyone's shown up at least once I think we should mass-claim at this point and make sure the assumptions we're making at the moment (that the only remaining PR claims are gorilla+Fey+Bell) are right.

Reading this ISO it's not as bad as I had in my mind. hmm

2611 you call me maf.. call me the "deepwolf" and talk about how 1 scum is putting in all this effort to avoid invictus shots..
Question 2) what had you thinking only 1 maf was trying super hard? like, by that point, none of the invictus shots were on maf, it's not like a single mafia has died this game... so if I had to guess, maf would be sitting fairly comfortably sure.. but what exactly makes fire or I a deep wolf? like, have we been left alive for people to start casting paranoia our way? At this point idk if this is even a question, this is just where my doubt is. like, you say fire or I is the 3rd deepwolf, but you don't cite anything scummy thus far to back up the claim. Like, just cause we're in a hood? like.. why do WE have to be the deepwolf? plus the claim that only 1 maf is trying hard? I mean, I think it's more that town just isn't trying or doing a whole lot to make themselves known and the "consensus poe" has basically just been the VT claims... like... yeah idk, I have lots of thoughts but we'll end there..

The lazy answer is 'usually there's a deepwolf', who through either effort or bussing or both, has put in the work to carry their team to victory if everyone else on the scumteam dies, and nobody else except you and fire really fit that - both of you have put enough effort into the game and pressured marci enough that everyone's reactions to both of ya'll have been "yeah that's fine" or better for the entire game and I'd be surprised if anyone claims to have targeted one of you two with an invictus shot since n2.

The slightly less lazy answer I already mentioned a piece of earlier - in a game where town get twice as many eliminations as mafia do kills, mafia need to have an actual plan to make it through the game, and generally they're aware enough of how they're perceived and the game-state to make one that doesn't suck. Unless you somehow get 4 Enchants on a scumteam, the plan is never "let's ALL lurk and hammer randomly and hope we win that way", and for a game like this there's going to be a Plan A Day 1 for "Ideally we can push these townies" and later a Plan B for "scum 1 gets/got elim'd early by elim/Invictus" and even later a plan C for "scum 2 gets a major wagon on them today" and etc etc. My gut is that you fit that best yesterday with the marci push d2 from you, that I think would be reasonable for you-scum to expect wouldn't go anywhere and just get some distancing in given your complaints about people not playing the game and not following you, but frankly that's more gut and paranoia than an actual conviction - your play yesterday was erratic but the only part I actually find scummy there was your brief push on me for voting Enchant early game+me posting from my personal PT, which I think could reasonably come from town. Fire also makes sense as a deepwolf as *the reasonable scum*, particularly after yesterday, in that he helped push marci early but also tried to convince me of both Lavar-scum D1 and Cakez possibly being scum with marci yesterday with decent but wrong reasonings and not really budging to consider my POV much on either.
Nobody else I think feels like they came out of the marci wagon with what could be a plan to get to endgame.

---------

I've got a couple meetings today so I prob won't be posting more *words* 'til after work, but assuming we start the massclaim today I can pop in around either lunch or ~3pm my time to claim so ya'll don't have to wait on me

[Gammagooey]

okay, everyone whose name isn't Bell or Kovu, full readslist of all remaining players (you do not need to include us or Bell) next time you're in thread please

~Rhyme

Meuh
Fire
Gorilla
Kovu

---very large gap---

Dunn
Fey



I don't see any plausible scumteam that doesn't have Fey on it and as I've said before Fey+Dunn makes the most sense as a scumpair to me out of anyone. You can tell me Meuh doesn't deserve to be that high or that I'm wrong about one of fire/kovu and I am currently not going to give a shit about it because voting in the above 4 instead of Dunn+Fey is basically throwing a dart into the wind instead of stomping out cockroaches.

Also in addition to meetings my car has also been hit by the U-Haul of someone moving into my apt complex so yeah I'll see ya'll tonight

[Gammagooey]

I'm a Tesla Fanatic

fire/Kovu if you're anything aside from Generic Neighbors now's the time to say it

R&R technically hasn't claimed but since they're conf. town they can use their best judgement on if claiming anything extra is useful for setup-solving at this point

[Gammagooey]

I'm around now, went over the last several pages and I'm v. fine with waiting for R&R to actually show up before voting

Probably skipping around while going over things b/c I can and because I don't want to spend an hour+ digging through wallposts for questions if the people asking them don't care about the answers after a day+ has passed. If you actually want a response from me on something I missed throw the sentence into a quote for me and I'll answer it.

@Bell - My pushes to try to get what I've thought were actual decent wagons through the game - pushing for marci, then Enchant/Dwlee when it was clear that wasn't going to happen over my townlean of Lavar D1, pushing on likely scum-Dunn D2 and engaging Lukewarm about his suspicions on gorilla then (though if you're unconvinced about that day in particular given that Dunn+gorilla are still unflipped that's fair), trying to convince everyone to vote out one of Fey/Dunn who are actually likely scum with marci over the distractions of Enchant/Cakez yesterday (and the push for Cakez town because him specifically being bussing-scum with marci just didn't make sense to me given how he was playing the game). There's also my interactions w/ marci - I'm pretty capable of bussing as scum but a) I don't think I'd stay on the marci wagon as scum, and definitely wouldn't bother trying to pull LLD onto her wagon over Lavar the one time LLD shows up here and b) All of #926 #928 and #1375 (ESPECIALLY #1375) by marci I think are p. clearly commenting towards a town player and trying to discredit/downplay me trying to push her.

@fire this is one of the things I'm not sure if it's relevant anymore so I'm spoilering it

Spoiler: response to me disregarding Meuh as a possibility/deepwolf convo

there's an issue with your line of thinking here. you're saying that a deepwolf usually exists, and define it as someone who puts in the effort or the bussing to make it to endgame. but in order to determine who it is, you're looking at the output, not the input. you're saying that because me and kovu are mostly townread, we make sense as the deepwolf. but an attempted deepwolf can't control how they get read, they can only control what they put into the game. and it seems like you're disregarding meuh as a possibility here just because she's in the poe and some people have called her out for scummy behavior. she's still put in the effort and the bussing to qualify

no, I'm not. If Meuh is mafia, her plan was not "defend marci early, bus her later, and live to endgame", because the way she pushed gorilla over marci was weird, and attention-grabbing, and put a neon spotlight on her for casing one person and voting another. If you want to argue that Meuh is scum for pushing a potential miselim on gorilla and hopefully more miselims in the future then that's reasonable, if you want to argue that a scumteam of Meuh/gorilla/marci is possible I very much doubt it but I'd at least be interested in seeing why you think that, but "Meuh bussed marci in that way and expected to get townread and try to outlive almost everyone else in the game" is absofuckinglutely not what happened there.

[Gammagooey]

@Kovu - This post is not about your alignment but it is about your play in general - for this post, I'm assuming you're town, putting what I think about your motivations in a box and kicking it into the closet until I'm done.

Jumping to conclusions like you do in the below posts is really frustrating for other people to deal with. I think you very likely don't mean it to be, but it feels like a large chunk of the time when you're talking to people, you've already made up your mind and are barely even reading what they're saying before you start typing up a post with what you think about it. I'm not expecting a huge change now, but I really think you could both have a better understanding of people's reads & thoughts & ideas on the game if you just slow down and think more about the context of what people are saying, or go back over a post or two they're referencing and try a little harder to see things from their perspective instead of immediately posting your thoughts about it.
I really think that it'd not only help your play a bit in general, but also would be a lot more fun to play with - I've definitely played in

less

fun games than this, but ultimately I'd almost always rather everyone enjoy playing in a game than personally win it, and given that around half or more of the game seems like they're having a generally mediocre or bad time I think putting in that little bit of extra effort to make the game more fun for everyone would go a long way.

Spoiler: Kovu

okay, everyone whose name isn't Bell or Kovu, full readslist of all remaining players (you do not need to include us or Bell) next time you're in thread please

~Rhyme

Meuh
Fire
Gorilla
Kovu

---very large gap---

Dunn
Fey

I don't see any plausible scumteam that doesn't have Fey on it and as I've said before Fey+Dunn makes the most sense as a scumpair to me out of anyone. You can tell me Meuh doesn't deserve to be that high or that I'm wrong about one of fire/kovu and I am currently not going to give a shit about it because voting in the above 4 instead of Dunn+Fey is basically throwing a dart into the wind instead of stomping out cockroaches.

Also in addition to meetings my car has also been hit by the U-Haul of someone moving into my apt complex so yeah I'll see ya'll tonight

Ok, so you TR me and gamma, and gamma is convinced I'm a wolf, so like, if your 2 top TRs have conflicting reads, why have you not really said anything? like, Gamma has BEEN vocal about me being the deepwolf, I'm 3rd bottom read for gamma... like, gamma seems pretty set I'm a wolf

.. and you had nothing to say with our interaction?

Also, it took 20 minutes to say "I tr you and gamma" ?? hmmm...

Well, I don't have gamma as a TR, so like yeah.. largely due to how gamma is going at me like "there's probably a deepwolf so it's you!!" but not citing anything... then gamma didn't even respond to my last message..

So gamma is town for "not wanting to rush a vote" and "asking for massclaims" like.. if that's the bar, we should TR everyone else here too.. Like, a player like gamma, putting a bunch of thought into every post, and you're just like "not rushing vote makes them town" idk, I mean, I guess in a way this is helpful cause I TR gamma over you for sure right now, like, I hate all this generic talk... "interactions with maf looked fine" like, this is exactly why I'm SRing gamma. Generic statements not backed up by anything... like, want to give post numbers for where these good posts are? you know.. something to like actually convince me you believe in this tr?

----------

how do you know there's not a deepwolf?

Kovu assuming the absolute worse of everything I say: part 592
Gamma’s logic for a deepwolf boiled down to “scum must have some sort of control over the game” or something of the sort. I’m not saying there is or isn’t a deepwolf, I’m saying Gamma’s logic for it doesn’t make sense. Scum could very well just not be playing that well. That entire point was unrelated to my personal thoughts on whether or not there’s a deepwolf.

you can not claim credit at all day 2 for the marci lim... like what even?? I cased marci, and mala followed, and no one else talked for like the next 6 hours... I read your stuff like "oh day 1?" I'm 100% the reason for day 2 marci going over...

I'm clearly incapable of towncasing myself, I'm just gonna hope you guys magically change your minds.

LMAOOO Kovu holy shit what even
That is not what I said
I pretty clearly cast a vote that lead to a chain of several more votes happening immediately after. I'm not claiming I'm the reason it all went down.

I was interested in actually talking with you earlier when you reached out but it's been infuriating. If you want to engage with me with an open mind we can but this is clearly not productive, which is saying something considering it's most of the discussion in the thread.

----------

we're depending on the votes of two incredibly flaky clears to make any elimination happen.

I mean, we don't have to wait for them, I'm pretty sure Bell would be OK with a meuh lim, even if it's not Bell's #1 choice, but we only need 5 votes, RR will show up at somepoint in the near future, even if it's to dodge a prod, so like, yeah.. we definitely could vote whoever out.. Dunn would vote meuh, you, me and fire are voting, and then literally anyone who wants to hammer. easy. but if yall wanna wait forever for mena's "full thoughts" go for it

we're depending on the votes of two incredibly flaky clears to make any elimination happen.

I mean, we don't have to wait for them, I'm pretty sure Bell would be OK with a meuh lim, even if it's not Bell's #1 choice, but we only need 5 votes, RR will show up at somepoint in the near future, even if it's to dodge a prod, so like, yeah.. we definitely could vote whoever out.. Dunn would vote meuh, you, me and fire are voting, and then literally anyone who wants to hammer. easy. but if yall wanna wait forever for mena's "full thoughts" go for it

Jesus Christ I didn’t fucking say this.

[Gammagooey]

In regards to setup stuff, I feel like scum have to have Something as a PR though - the *mystery role* that doesn't necessarily follow Normal guidelines could be a red herring again but I personally doubt it, even without the bodyguard/2-shot detective the town is WAY more powerful than the original Mafia Invictus setup.

The first Invictus game only had a town tracker+2 bodyguards vs essentially 3 goons & a maf bodyguard. The setup (I think) pretty clearly needed at least a bit more town power, but without some sort of scum PR frankly the flips as they are seem like enough already - the combination of novice traffic analyst, 1-shot cop, and friendly neighbor means (without scum PRs) there's probably 2 inno results by D2, and it's slightly (but given the invictus shots not very) unlucky to not get a 3rd by D3. Additionally, if any of traffic analyst/1-shot cop hit scum, they become borderline innocent themselves and the mafia very likely aren't out-surviving them, and the n2 vig has the potential to hit scum and become basically conf. town as well. Adding like 5 different roles/role results that mafia need to deal with somehow doesn't make sense for a vanilla mafia team when mafia get 5 kills to 10-12 town elims - the scum counterplay to Invictus of "don't shoot people that are going to kill you" doesn't exist if scum's only way of dealing with PRs is killing them.

I don't think adding a two-shot detective to that makes sense - it basically gives town ~2 "investigates" a night until D4 vs 1 scumkill a night. Assume the detective makes the smart choice to hold n1, you have 1-shot cop+FN n1 and detective+TA n2 & n3. It also doesn't really fit thematically with the rest of the roles imo - this is definitely pretty subjective on my part, but there's basically 3 1-shot abilities (cop, FN, and the n2 vig) and the novice TA, which is slightly limited by the neighbors+neighborizer regardless of their possible alignments. Bodyguard I think can fit into that with some scum role that allows scum counterplay, but adding a random 2-shot investigation role in there doesn't feel like it fits.

I do think that Meuh has a point (and Dunn mentioned this earlier too) in that a regular roleblocker doesn't make a ton of sense with Bell's FN going off n1 (and Lukewarm getting to shoot n2), but I still think gorilla's early play makes him pretty likely town and could see something like a scum rolestopper, Ascetizer or something else like a limited-shot strongman or a wacky non-normal scum JOAT being in the game could make sense of the night actions so far. In particular I don't think anyone claimed to receive VPB's fruit/tesla-tshirt n1, which could have been stopped by a rolestopper or ascetizer.

[Gammagooey]

@Bell - Fey

Omw home after visiting my dad, ill be available to talk about shit around 9/9:30 eastern

[Gammagooey]

KOVU we're actually on at the same time talk with me for a minute

Tell me what you think about Fey at this point and what interactions between her & Dunn you remember atm

because my opinion on that is the one thing I've felt confident on for what feels like half the game now and finally knowing I'm JUSTIFIED in feeling that way for at least half of it is a much better buzz than coffee and I would very much like to know what you've noticed from Fey's play so far

[Gammagooey]

ay you're back. you declaring yourself clear for the lolwifom of 'I bet R&R wouldn't have killed Dunn' is dumb and but I don't care about that atm I care about your opinion on Fey. Tommorrow's fine if you're busy tonight.

I VERY HEAVILY ENCOURAGE everyone to look at Fey and tell me if they think literally any of these are more likely to come from town than scum
-Fey's sorting of Dunn being primarily shading/questioning people for scumreading him d1/d2 while having him as null
-ignoring me mentioning D2 "hey you're right about LLD death not being clearing, but especially for marci"
-The confidence on Cakez scum for "rule of 3" with her/cakez/gorilla (and apparently other reasons that I can't find more of other than "he was biased on marci")
-Asking for the case on Dunn, me giving a summary, and then pushing that I'm scum with Enchant and Cakez
-the push on me when someone pointed out I had post #s from my personal PT when that post happened to specifically be me laying out my reasons that I think Dunn+Fey are likely scum together and then calling it lame when the mod confirmed it was from the Personal PT
-End of yesterday her statement of "nobody's doing anything on Dunn" and then voting Meuh (though this is *less objectively bad* then everything else above imo)

And that's not even mentioning the actual marci interactions themselves
The reaction to her wagon d3 was a legitimate reaction coming from her being stressed, and there's no reason why that stress wouldn't come from scum too
The other half-decent reason to think she's town aside from that is Dunn starting D3 with a vote on her, which he drops about 5 hours later to help push Cakez because

he's a neighborizer

that definitely can't just only neighborize the conf. town or stop neighborizing altogether

VOTE: Fey

[Gammagooey]

Meuh I don't get how you or pretty much anyone thinks I'm likely scum after my play/interactions with both marci+Dunn. Like this 1391 is a post I made to marci scum asking them to follow through on their suspicions of ANOTHER now flipped scum which she used her scumread on me to avoid doing, and I'm pretty sure I have more actual WORDS regarding marci and Dunn in particular than any living player, and probably more than any dead players too except for Lukewarm on marci and gorilla on Dunn.

Like really, go through my play day 1 and day 2 and tell me what of that you think is more likely coming from scum than town.

[Gammagooey]

Gonna put the possibility of you-scum aside for a sec but tbf I still don't think it's likely that you and Dunn play the way you did in regards to the gorilla particularly d2 as scumbuddies together, tho I don't remember much of what you were doing d3/early d4 so that's worth a reread sometime today

My gut has said Kovu the whole game just based on their early play feeling performative to me and not thinking people are giving them credit as someone capable of playing this jumpy/free-spirited as scum when they've been pushing town for the vast, vast majority of it. I get why people think their marci push is coming from town but I at least think it's possible that Kovu did that expecting her vote to just sit there and get ignored instead of the marci wagon taking off. They have had some decent/good pushes on Dunn too but they've been pretty brief and not ultimately not followed through on for more than a real-life day or two - it's hard for me to tell if they're legitimately thinking Dunn is scum there or are just voting basically everyone whenever they make a post she thinks town-her would find scummy and then jumping off to the next person.

fire I think felt very good while playing through the early days and I still think makes a decent amount of sense as town, but they've been pushing against a ton of reads of mine that ultimately turned out to be correct (Lavar vs marci d1, Cakez d3 and if my memories are right put some minor brakes on Dunn-pushes a few times (I'm 90% sure I remember him saying Dunn looked good after a few of his posts D3, his teams including Dunn in 2894 were pretty weak pushes aside from me+Fey+Dunn which is generally ??? with my pushes on Dunn throughout the game - I think there were a few comments about Dunn being town or Dunn posts being good d1/d2 too but I don't remember the specifics atm. Also pushed against my Dunn+you aren't scum together thoughts in the last couple game days. Them being *the reasonable scum* that just pushes against people when they're casing/attacking their partners is def. possible, I'd just be a little surprised that they chose to do it if they're scum instead of getting in Kovu's good graces and bussing a bit more to make sure they specifically make it to endgame.

[Gammagooey]

Hey fire+Kovu can you go over what you talked about around here when the D3 Dunn wagon was happening?

i was confused cause you made it sound like you could have easily gotten away with choosing a scumbuddy bc kovu gave you 5 options to choose from

that implies to me that there is someone in the 5 options that is a valid scumbuddy for you

fmpov and imo from even an objective pov there isn't one

that is kinda ? for me bc you were giving it as a reason for why you're not scum here

your explanation that the two statements of "i could have gotten away with it" and "kovu gave me five options" are unconnected is kinda a stretch for me to believe but idk. ima talk to kovu about this

ok kovu has assuaged my concerns

VOTE: Dunn

[Gammagooey]

you have a point, Kovu did have that one blowup at fire d2 that I think scum-fire would very badly want to avoid happening again, but scumfire pushing on other scum would prob be less important than then going along with Kovu's reads/thoughts in the neighborhood

gotta get back to work in a min but I'll check out flipped people's opinions on Kovu d1/d2 later

[Gammagooey]

Went over some old stuff for a fair bit

There were several people saying Kovu was town, a lot of the reasons were pretty minimal that I could find or were just "consistent with her towngame" but VPB & gorilla's stood out
VPB said that she was acting like the game revolved around her and that thinking that way was +town - I don't think it only comes from town but I'd agree that that behavior is more likely to come from town than scum on its own

gorilla mentioned his marci push which the first two posts of voting+pushing do make sense as scum potentially bussing and expecting that people wouldn't hop on, but going back over the 3rd post he linked (2134) I maybe didn't give that enough credit - the 2nd paragraph of 'marci's making an easy push on me' makes sense as either town or bussing scum, and the complaining about 'people hate me why do I try' on its own could come from scum but the frustration of "you're shooting it down b/c I said it" right before the probably genuine frustration is actually much more likely to be coming from town than scum

Also found this from fire from around all the end of day 2 shenanigans that feels pretty gross in hindsight, taking what I said about "hey if Dunn's scum here shouldn't you re-consider on gorilla" and turning it into "Lukewarm's TMIing Dunn as town"

@Luke - Again, you don't have to answer this right away b/c you're low on posts

but if Dunn flips scum, isn't that a pretty good reason to not vig/Invictus gorilla? Considering that he would be right about at least your reasons for finding Dunn-town being bad, if not (assuming you're town) your actual alignment? It feels like you're going all-in on gorilla scum even when a Dunn-scum flip objectively makes him much less likely to be scum.

this is actually a very good point and if luke is scum it may be TMIing dunn as town

gorilla paired with dunn makes not much sense, and luke says that he is willing to elim dunn as long as he still gets to shoot gorilla after??

the only way i can see that statement making any sense as town is if he is 100% deadset on gorilla scum and wants to shoot him out no matter what. but then why be okay with a dunn elim? in that world he should be fighting hard to lim someone else because he should think dunn is town. and if he thinks dunn could be scum, then why would he still want to 100% shoot gorilla? it sounds like he already knows what dunn will flip

[Gammagooey]

Meuh and Fey if you remember can you go over what your thoughts on Dunn were around/right after the peak of his wagon on day 3?
Meuh you mentioned that you didn't want the day to end early but joined Fey on Enchant pretty soon after

Fey can you give specifics for what posts there were where you liked how Dunn was approaching things and why you thought that?

[Gammagooey]

and also found a comment i made in the hood on 2441 which was that i felt like the dunn points were a lot better than the fey ones... which on the one hand, okay, so he's pushing harder for the one that has flipped scum so far... but the thing is that he actually wasn't really? even though the case is better?

gamma can you talk about why you were focused more on pushing fey there instead of dunn at the start of the day?

I went over it when I voted Fey originally D3 - from the marci interactions Fey looks the worst out of anyone in the game, and I thought (and still think) the Datisi investigation is probably a lie because it didn't look like it had any thought put into it, and it would be burning literally half of Fey's claimed power doing it. Maybe if you ignore my initial post D3 about Fey then you could say the points on Dunn were stronger than the ones on Fey but I don't really see that being the case including that - And after re-reading and posting that I was very happy to kill either of the two that day and I think that's pretty clear from my posts+vote on Dunn afterwards. Also as a sidenote, by the time I posted in thread for the first time D3 (D3 start was 2am my time) at 9something am, Dunn had already voted Fey, hopped off, and never voted Fey again for the rest of the game. I just said the previous day that I was fine voting for a scumread even if another scumread of mine was voting them (with marci & Meuh voting them) and it turned out to work quite well, my thoughts/philosophy on that didn't change overnight.

VOTE: Fey
It looks like Dunn and Meuh already went into this a bit but Fey definitely looks the worst from D1 play at a glance - was one of the people suggesting marci-town for meta, votes were Datisi->Bell->VPB->marci with a caveat that she doesn't even like the wagon->Dwlee

Dwlee investigate is understandable but Datisi investigate doesn't make sense to me personally - if you're gonna use a 2-shot detective role n1 and basically make it variant tracker, is theoretical Datisi-scum really going to make the kill when he's been tunnelled by marci all day? And remember this is from Fey's perspective so with a marci town-read she presumably wouldn't have "Marci+Datisi scumbuddies" as anywhere near a likely possibility given her d1 read on marci

I don't think it has more than a tiny chance of happening but no quick elims til after I can go over more stuff plz

----------------
This is somewhat obvious but prob needs to be said for whoever suggested Cakez dead just to stop neighborizing from happening given Val's claim - Cakez can presumably just stop using his neighborize ability at this point

Haven't done much re-reading aside from a skim of marci's iso and going over Fey a bit yet - I get why people are saying Cakez was overconfident on marci but I'm still leaning him-town. Meuh I'll probably go over more tonight, her gorilla & marci thoughts in particular were ???? but man does that feel borderline suicidal to do with marci as a scumpartner

Also I got a fruit and a T-shirt last night which probably came from VPB given his flip?

Yeah looking at EOD when Marci was giving her suspicions she had me/gorilla/Cakez. Just gonna rule of three this and move on assuming Cakez is a hit.

Didn't I just go on a rant about how "rule of 3" is dumb lazy garbo in Slaughter Hour? it's fine to use with other info but using on its own is terrible

-The confidence on Cakez scum for "rule of 3" with her/cakez/gorilla (and apparently other reasons that I can't find more of other than "he was biased on marci")

also how is this a point for fey being scum? why would she bring up the rule of 3 thing if it was actually true?

She looks the worst out of any player in the game until she gets mad at R&R, and it's an easy reason to push two townies (particularly Cakez). I don't think Fey-scum expected to live longer than both of them, and given both her level of effort and that she's pushed pretty much exclusively on town (with the possible exception of Meuh who's still unflipped) I definitely don't think Fey has been playing a long-scum game focused on looking town and surviving to endgame here. Assume Fey is scum here - do you think her plan has been literally anything except "kill as many townies as possible before I get elim'd/invictus'd"?

[Gammagooey]

what's weird to me is the initial push onto fey d3. it feels like you came in with a plan, not like you were pushing your strongest scumread

I had spent a little time going over a few posts between the marci flip and D3 starting, going over marci interactions, with Fey's in particular standing out, then read up on what had happened D3 so far after waking up, and posted my vote+thoughts on Fey before switching over to focusing on work for the day. Objectively I was prob going to vote Fey at the start of the day based on that bit of rereading unless a scum or something else particularly surprising flipped over night 2 but aside from that "coming in with a plan" is p. much just wrong.

but anyway speaking of your scumread on Meuh, can you talk about your progression there? you had her as a scumread for most of d2, and even when voting Marci you said that meuh could possibly be bussing her. im not really sure how you got from there to feeling like they were unlikely partners (and we've already been over that) to then having her at the top of your reads in 2951. and then now it feels like you have her in a "let's deal with this later" pile, but like... you should probably be dealing with it now?

the post where you're campaigning to gorilla that dunn and meuh can't be partnered in 2866 before dunn has flipped is also kinda sketchy imo

I went over a big chunk of it in the post where I actually described why I didn't think Dunn & Meuh were scum together in the first place

Meuh I've read over pretty much her whole iso now at this point and still feel conflicted. One thing I wanna bring up is that I think that Meuh & Dunn are pretty damn unlikely to be scum together. The gorilla pushes, and now the Fey push, and the way they behaved around marci is just too similar in a game where any scumbuddy could die at any time to Invictus and one person's read on you can end your life, and I think it makes a lot more sense that Meuh got blinded by her friend's play than Dunn. If I'm wrong about Dunn then I think she's at least a reasonable guess at scum, but also I think it's likely I was overly tunneled on her gorilla push - I still don't like it and it's probably going to be bouncing in the back of my brain every now and again until either she's deceased or the game's over, but if I put most of that aside, I do think her point about scum seeing the setup as more town-sided than it is and vice-versa was more likely to come from a town mindset than scum even if I don't agree with its conclusion of gorilla being scum, her marci questioning+mentions day 2 in particular were generally reasonable and definitely at least felt better than the random pointless pokes it felt like Dunn was giving to marci, and similar to her point on gorilla I like her post 1287 where she goes over what she thought was iffy about Cakez and reconsiders a bit that she may have disliked where Cakez's focus was but acknowledges that she's not sure how justified that was in retrospect.

Aside from that I liked her day 3 posting and the sudden possibility that gorilla was actually scum (in something like a Fey/gorilla/??? scumteam) made her imo the worst elim between the people actually being considered.

[Gammagooey]

Okay well.
VOTE: Meuh

I don’t have a lot to say because ai physically don’t remember what I thought in this game anymore and trying to go back reaps nothing. I’m at the end of my mafia player lifecycle like a cicada.

I’m of the opinion that Meuh > Gamma > Fire is a winning path right now. Even if Meuh flips town (I don’t feel that, her vibes feel different after spectating her as town in a game that just ended) townies just point their Invictus shots at Gamma.

Means I’ll probably have to go against a scum!fire at the end which is. >_> Because they will outpost me by a mile but oh well.

Why would you say that if you actually think both Meuh & I are likely to flip scum here? you only go against scum!fire if you are all of a)town b)not-invictus'd c)you're wrong about one of Meuh/me being scum which you pretty clearly aren't putting any actual effort into parsing despite being perfectly fine with both of us dying and you viewing the possibility of fire in 3p as a likely loss for you

Like why are ya'll ignoring EVERYTHING that I've been saying about Fey for days now about her marci & Dunn interactions where she defends marci and completely ignores Dunn and the cases on him, pushes either entirely or almost entirely town for the entire damn game, and then posts shit like this that's saying "well I think they're scum but I probably still have to deal with fire tomorrow won't that be shitty >_>", like ACTUALLY WHY? It makes no damn sense for that to be coming from town, she's completely ignored everything I've said about marci & dunn both when I said it and how likely town I am because of their interactions with me now that they've flipped, and she's done nothing town for DAYS now and is probably wondering how the fuck you all are just letting her coast and get away with it, it's fucking absurd

fire I'll get to your questions in a couple min

[Gammagooey]

Aside from that I liked her day 3 posting

what about it did you like, specifically?

also, what was the point of asking for a summary from the hood of stuff around the dunn wagon? did you learn anything from that? what were you hoping to learn?

She seemed open and excited to be playing & scumhunting immediately after a scum elim (like felt very open to discussing who scum was and trying to hash it out and figure it out together), and I agreed with her reads a lot more D3 than I did on previous days (particularly she pushed Fey/Dunn at different times through the day and her read post in #2766 felt good).

Spoiler: a bunch of day 3 Meuh posts for reference

I think the way Cakez is setting up me/Marci as a scumpair while she's receiving votes might actually mean they're S/S here and I don't like the shade.
Though Cakez' later posts regarding Marci don't really feel partnered so he might just be wrong

TMI?

There's a lot of worse Meuh posts on marci but this bit struck me as particularly notable from her ISO. I think this is 2/3 right here.

I had a thought and I posted it

VOTE: SirCakez we can see if this flips scum. I kinda like Fey's last few posts either way
Honestly I've barely thought about Cakez since the clear because I assumed he was just town

Also do you think my vote on Marci was a bus? Cause I was the one who started the cute little vote chain that ensued. This is for Gorilla but also anyone else who thinks I might be scum here. If it is, do you think the other votes were coordinated? Who are the other scum who bussed with me?

Pedit: That readslist is fine tbh. I wouldn't be too surprised to see the other 3 people in the scumpool actually be maf
Ehhh tying Fey's alignment to the presupposition of me flipping scum is iffy
But like overall the thought process is fine

I feel like with the way the game is set up, I'm probably inevitably getting invictus shot or limmed.
That should be fine though, since I think we're still oriented towards a win either way.
Worthy sacrifice!

Is it just Marci/Cakez/Dunn/Enchant?
Or could Fey be scum still
hmm
I have doubts on Val or Gamma being scum
I suppose Fey could still be scum though
I'm somewhere like this:

Meuh
RR, Bell

Fire, Kovu

Gorilla
Val
Gamma

Fey
Enchant
Cakez, Dunn

Gamma if you had to throw 3 names out right now and if they were all scum we insta won, who would those 3 be?

@Meuh - Dunn Fey and a deepwolf - probably one of fire/Kovu, and if I had to say this instant I'd say Kovu. I know that people will think that opinion is garbo but I really think that one scum has likely been putting a ton of effort into the game and set themselves up to actually live through the ridiculous number of Invictus shots this game has, because otherwise you're just asking to get gunned down halfway through the game by random Invictus shots.

The thing is that effort isn't really something you just assign players?
Like if scum ended up with none of the players in the game putting a very high amount of effort in, that doesn't mean suddenly one of them is going to change their playstyle for that purpose.
Scum might just be significantly losing rn, who knows? I don't see why we'd make the assumption they weren't.
It's optimal for scum to have high effort players yes but no one in the history of mafia has ever played a game optimally.

@Meuh - Dunn Fey and a deepwolf - probably one of fire/Kovu, and if I had to say this instant I'd say Kovu. I know that people will think that opinion is garbo but I really think that one scum has likely been putting a ton of effort into the game and set themselves up to actually live through the ridiculous number of Invictus shots this game has, because otherwise you're just asking to get gunned down halfway through the game by random Invictus shots.

The thing is that effort isn't really something you just assign players?
Like if scum ended up with none of the players in the game putting a very high amount of effort in, that doesn't mean suddenly one of them is going to change their playstyle for that purpose.
Scum might just be significantly losing rn, who knows? I don't see why we'd make the assumption they weren't.
It's optimal for scum to have high effort players yes but no one in the history of mafia has ever played a game optimally.

You're right about the *effort* in general being more player-based than alignment-based a lot of the time

But if scum is all in <Enchant/Fey/Dunn/you> then I think they've set themselves up to lose by not having one player bus convincingly or make some sort of claim shakeup to try to salvage the game here, gorilla I've had a strong town read on the whole game and has made a likely suicidal claim of bodyguard, Cakez doesn't make sense as scum with my two strongest scumreads of Fey/Dunn, and Val I guess I am overlooking a bit because of the traffic Analyst claim fitting tbh? Fey/Dunn/Val does make sense too tbh, I just haven't given it really any thought until now since them both claiming PRs today made it much more likely that one of them gets elim'd in the near future.

Okay but look at that pool.
I am town
Fey and Dunn were seemingly just not around near EOD
Enchant literally can't bus convincingly based on playstyle

So... yes I think ordinarily they would try something of the sort, but within the circumstances? It sounds pretty much impossible

Maybe Dunn's town and this is like Enchant/Cakez/hidden wolf
I wonder if Fey bussing Cakez is like an actual possibility or if that wouldn't make sense regarding her push, I should check it out again

Can we just get like a Dunn lim through and point our invictus in the POE?

It's unlikely we don't flip any scum that way

Note the maybe
I don't have anyone to bounce my ideas off of in private, sadly, unlike about half of the players in this game
Also the plan I just mentioned proposes an invictus shot following your lim, which is even more potential to hit scum. (I think you flip red at this point anyways)

You've generally interacted with me weird this game I feel but maybe that's me being self-absorbed.

Sigh.

I’m sorry.
Gorilla, Rhyme, meuh, Fire. Tell me who you want to be on and I’ll go with it.

meuh or fey, i guess. i don't actually think cakez has been towny at all lately so id be fine with him too. kinda don't want dunn anymore, enchant is fine

VOTE: Fey
Let's just get something through, please

The Day 3 deadline is in (expired on 2022-06-21 01:00:00).

I will self-hammer if it comes down to it. Better than nolim.
This day has been frustrating and the fact we can't coordinate a lim with 2 conf towns and 2 almost universal townreads is ???
Idrc at this point let's just narrow the POE and move on, hopefully with 2 new flips and traffic analyst results to help out

Who do you consider to be scumreading Gorilla, and why did you distinguish that slot from the other two also voting voting?

Are you scum reading gorilla?

Presumably your point with that post is you started a new wagon on Fey (nobody was voting her, I've just gone back to answer that question myself) because you didn't feel like there was anyone you could really sheep; correct?

To me, everyone falls into 4 categories

Conf town

Bell, RR

Very likely town besties

Fire, Kovu

Have a significant chance of flipping scum but should not be limmed today due to being less suspicious than those in the limpool and/or because they likely will have their alignment be resolved through mech play

Gorilla, Val, Gamma

Limpool

Cakez, Enchant, Dunn, Fey

So that's why Gorilla's distinguished from Fire and Kovu, he doesn't exist in the same space in my mind.
Also isn't Enchant literally voting for him? I know Enchant is to be taken with a grain of salt, but still.
Plus I have my own doubts about him, I'd say Gamma flips scum more than you or Gorilla, but based on play Gorilla's scummier than you.
The only thing making me think you might be scum more often than Gorilla here are the claims. Protective being real sounds more likely than another information based role. (Though imo 1-shot cop + FN + traffic analyst is not impossible in the slightest)

You might be correct - I didn't go back and count, hence why I said 'I believe'.

How many people were voting for Fey?

Yeah, I don't think you were deliberately overstating the Cakez wagon to go after me, I just felt it was relevant to point out because it seems to be at the root of that point you made against me.

I know you already mentioned 0 people were voting for Fey, but that's not particularly relevant to me tbh. No one other than myself had more than 2 votes so there weren't really any wagons set in stone. I think looking at who people were/weren't willing to lim through their words is much more significant than just looking at vote counts and nothing else when only 2/7 votes needed were on anyone I was considering. Because of all of this, I don't think a lack of votes made Fey and unviable lim by any means.

Anyone else thinking Enchant is scum here? I don't really see a world where they aren't at this point

VOTE: Enchant yay!
This is good timing because Cakez' last few posts look good
I think Dun flips scum slightly more often than Enchant; but the point about an Enchant lim needing to happen at some point is very true.

Pedit: <3 BFFs

Looks like my theory was right

which theory?

The Marci/Gorilla scumteam one

If you are right you can nominate me for twat of the year for scumreading you for voting/casing gorilla over marci in the first place

i also think this makes meuh very unlikely paired with gorilla. calling out two partners as S/S on d2 seems kinda throwy

this is like 90+% devil's advocate/my own annoyance talking

but I'm p. sure you mentioned some of the gorilla/marci posting from Meuh being potentially tmi before - would gorilla being scum make it feel substantially different to you? And regardless of whether gorilla flips scum, does her potential tmi on marci feel that different from Cakez's pushes on marci that you thought could be bussing?

also, can you walk me through what you were thinking when you made this post?

I think it was this post that your comment on gorilla/marci not be paired together reminded me of

1) the start of d2 push on gorilla. its already been pointed out how strange it was, saying that gorilla looks paired with marci and then voting gorilla. but with marci flipping scum i think it might just straight up be tmi. newer scum have that issue a lot i think, where they look for fake associatives with their scum partners in order to tie them together but do it before the partner even flips. the reasoning in 1365 for why she's going after gorilla instead of marci is p weak and her whole response to the pushback on it kind of feels like she realizes she messed up and is going into damage control mode.

It felt weird that you'd make that argument for Meuh being potentially scum for tmi, and then if she turned out to be right on BOTH of them being scum instead of just one then your argument for Meuh being scum for wouldn't be valid anymore.
The 2nd part of my post (whether that potential tmi felt similar to Cakez's) was as I said 90% annoyance that you were wrong on Cakez when I spent a good chunk of day 3 arguing that I could see Cakez being town, and wanting to know why/if you thought your argument for Meuh potentially tmi'ing previously was valid and still worth listening to/being confident in when I felt that most of the arguments for Cakez scum were similar "tmi" type arguments that he pushed too hard without reasoning and you were dead wrong on that.

[Gammagooey]

GG all and INFINITE PROPS TO FIRE for pulling that one out at the end, I couldn't even keep up with the posting you+Fey were doing at the start of Day 6 and you were presumably posting in the neighborhood to Kovu throughout that too.

This setup felt brutal to get through, I had used my 2 roleblock shots on gorilla n2 (while we killed Mala) and n3 (while we killed Val), and I felt that we HAD to get one of gorilla/Val voted out Day 4 to have a chance and that gorilla dying while blocking Val would just have people ultimately leave Val alive for one night to see if they die and we would have been forced to do that. I could have played townier than I did day 4 but wanted to give as much cover/credit to people pushing for a gorilla/gamma scumteam as possible to avoid the 50/50 shot of gorilla blocking conf. town correctly that night if he wasn't elim'd. With the number of elims town had it from Day 3 onwards it really came down to "can we get town to elim/invictus almost every non-conf. town except Kovu and our forced nightkills" except for setting up the potential perspective of a Fey/fire scumteam hoping that Fey would get invictus'd before me.
I'll prob post other setup thoughts later but again so many props to fire in particular, but also to Dunn for living what seemed like forever despite me bussing him the whole time and helping push through the gorilla wagon, and to marci for just bein' herself and getting townread day 1 and making a ton of other townies look bad for how they acted around her afterwards.

Why did I get shot night 1?

no it was me

sorry LLD you're scary and I wanted you gone at a time when you probably weren't shooting scum in the face with invictus as opposed to after you got your bearings - my thoughts were gorilla or you were the best kills and gorilla was more likely to be targeting scum with Invictus. Holler at me next time you play a marathon game though and you have the absolute right to shoot me in a vengeful game or something like that (this is probably the one long mafia game I play this year tbh)

[Gammagooey]

From what I remember of old games/convos a young Vi had aspirations of creating games like Tar's Mind Screw Mafia one day and decided to put him into their games as an homage to that

Tar put himself into a game in Mind Screw first as far as I know
viewtopic.php?p=1135088#p1135088

[Gammagooey]

Also, as the winner of the "Guess the length of the Kovu/fireisredsir PT!" minigame, Lukewarm with the help of marcistar has given me a wonderful new icon for the next 72 hours.

For posterity:



Horrible. I love it!

GLORIOUS

also have you been playing FE Warriors 3 hopes? Saw that you did another avi change before this one to hilda