Community

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Star Power

"Do I look like a guy with a plan? Do you know what I am? I'm like a frog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it! You know, I just...

do

things."

VOTE: Frog



VOTE: N.Y.M

Kill the weak sisters first. They're all pushovers who will be dead weight together, same goes for the other hydra. Star's only post is pretty lamist; a bad look for him already. I think he's more likely Town but I'm willing to kill him if he steps out of line again. I town lean Flavia, Kokabiel, Johnny and Bell. Of those four I can talk myself into scumreading Flavia if necessary; something about them still doesn't sit right with me. I'm expecting the really scummy D1 slots haven't shambled in yet.

[Frogsterking]

This is shaping out to be a game where my approach works and I go 2/3 in my early reads. I'll let you guys fight it out a little bit more before I post my PoE. Unless Bombay rolled scum and Luke is taking the reigns for marci (which I think isn't the case though my certainty is

low

) my reads indicate no scum has written more than 4 posts.

[Frogsterking]

This is shaping out to be a game where my approach works and I go 2/3 in my early reads.

Prioritizing group scum here (I think I'll have the majority of group scum at the bottom of my PoE.) I'm not really looking for Dictator/Governor yet though I have some thoughts on how to look for third party which I'll post later.

[Frogsterking]

oh hey

already on the biggest wagon

let's go! choo choo

Yeah get his ass

I expect to see some commitment behind that enthusiasm!

Not SvS.

Do you have any intuition on Johnny yet, Penguin?

[Frogsterking]

I have reviewed the thread and have a full team solve virtue of you guys being really easy reads.

[Frogsterking]

As such, take nearly everything he says in the early game with a grain of salt.

Or you could listen and hit scum early more often but that would require both thinking and listening at the same time.

[Frogsterking]

Lol these last few games are just excuses for me and pengy to flirt

I agree, the chemistry between you two is great for spewing you both as Town.

[Frogsterking]

As such, take nearly everything he says in the early game with a grain of salt.

Or you could listen and hit scum early more often but that would require both thinking and listening at the same time.

Thinking and reading* if you have poor control over your phonological loop.

[Frogsterking]

I have reviewed the thread and have a full team solve virtue of you guys being really easy reads.

In case anyone's confused this isn't a reaction test, I do have a full team solve I expect to be roughly 2/3 precise. I'm clarifying it's not a reaction test specifically because I know that no one interprets me to be joking because I'm sharp enough to realize a player who claims to think I'm joking is unlikely to be the telling the truth.

[Frogsterking]

This is shaping out to be a game where my approach works and I go 2/3 in my early reads. I'll let you guys fight it out a little bit more before I post my PoE. Unless Bombay rolled scum and Luke is taking the reigns for marci (which I think isn't the case though my certainty is

low

) my reads indicate no scum has written more than 4 posts.

I don’t follow the logic behind this. Marci hasn’t posted yet, and you’re saying that the only way Bombay is scum is if Luke is taking the reins for marci. But isn’t that exactly what Luke has been doing? I’m confused.

I think Luke's posts are more likely to come from Town.

[Frogsterking]

I'm trying to make posts made so far AI in my head, but I'm not really coming up with much.

rcan you please explain what you mean by “make posts AI in your head?”

I tend to think that most posts are probably NAI, at the end of the day. But particularly in the early game I think it’s helpful to think about whether particular posts are more likely from town, and to push on anything that might be from scum. For the posts made thus far, I had some thoughts along the lines of “this could be from town”, but then also counter-arguments in my head about why what I thought was town, wasn’t necessarily.

For example, I agree that Star Power’s post isn’t particularly indicative of scum, but I also can’t townread that post. In the end it’s just a colourful way of saying “let’s kill scum!”

IMO I don't think you are a dull player so if you haven't seen anything suspicious yet then I think you should reread and be more open to being skeptical and critical of others. I think the idea of whether or not most posts are NAI is tricky. In this particular game I believe that a lot more AI content than usual has been created.

[Frogsterking]

I have reviewed the thread and have a full team solve virtue of you guys being really easy reads.

In case anyone's confused this isn't a reaction test, I do have a full team solve I expect to be roughly 2/3 precise. I'm clarifying it's not a reaction test specifically because I know that no one interprets me to be joking because I'm sharp enough to realize a player who claims to think I'm joking is unlikely to be the telling the truth.

Go on then, who's mafia?

It's a good question but I'm going to be cagey for a little while and see what people do. I promise to out my reads sooner than I did in that Mini Normal we played though, I waited way too long in that game. I'll also remind you when I did finally out my reads on D1, Hoppip/Delta/Nuclear Gandhi was 2/3 correct. I found Hoppip/Delta right away so there was no real benefit there to waiting so long which my intuition says will be similar to this game. At this point I feel confident that I found 2 group scum already and no matter how much I flail and gnash my teeth I will be unlikely to pin down the third, though I can narrow it down quite a bit.

FWIW I believe #75 above is more likely to come from Resident/Dictator than group scum.

I'm trying to make posts made so far AI in my head, but I'm not really coming up with much.

rcan you please explain what you mean by “make posts AI in your head?”

I tend to think that most posts are probably NAI, at the end of the day. But particularly in the early game I think it’s helpful to think about whether particular posts are more likely from town, and to push on anything that might be from scum. For the posts made thus far, I had some thoughts along the lines of “this could be from town”, but then also counter-arguments in my head about why what I thought was town, wasn’t necessarily.

For example, I agree that Star Power’s post isn’t particularly indicative of scum, but I also can’t townread that post. In the end it’s just a colourful way of saying “let’s kill scum!”

IMO I don't think you are a dull player so if you haven't seen anything suspicious yet then I think you should reread and be more open to being skeptical and critical of others. I think the idea of whether or not most posts are NAI is tricky. In this particular game I believe that a lot more AI content than usual has been created.

can you vote kokabiel

-marci

I'm being cagey right now, sorry.

#77 above is more likely to come from Resident.

[Frogsterking]

Softclaim present.

VOTE: johnny

Hello everyone! I am here, ready to be a shining light against the delegation!

VOTE: DeasVail

I'm gonna need coffee.

Time's up, Herta. I need you to stop thread flaking and write a reads list now.

[Frogsterking]

Kookaburra, Why are you pretending to evaluate marci asking me to join her wagon as non SvS whereas you evaluate her doing the same thing to Dease as likely to be SvS? It's not because Johnny recently posted some reasons to be suspicious of Dease and you're hoping to fuel a TvT between them, is it?

[Frogsterking]

Kookaburra, Why are you pretending to evaluate marci asking me to join her wagon as non SvS whereas you evaluate her doing the same thing to Dease as likely to be SvS? It's not because Johnny recently posted some reasons to be suspicious of Dease and you're hoping to fuel a TvT between them, is it?

I'm going to assume this is meant for me.
What do you mean by pretend? Why didn't you ask why Marci pretended to do an honest work?
The difference is that Marci invited you, whereas Dease invited himself. Marci can invite anyone, so how would that make it SvS?
Johnny's reasoning on Dease is flawed because scum don't need to pretend to be scumhunting this game. The only question is why Dease thinks he needs to make AI reads so soon, which i don't find AI in itself.

I don't understand

1) why I would ask marci that question,
2) why Dease inviting himself is SvS
3) why scum don't need to pretend to be scumhunting
4) how you expect any of the three questions you directed toward me to lead to me saying something AI.

I suggest you help me understand because like most people I attack what I don't understand.

[Frogsterking]

59 is over-explainy. Which is the only reason I’m putting this vote down. I’m not buying Scum enters the thread and basically says I can’t find ways to contribute. I would probably spam or act silly before I admit that I am not actively contributing to solving. That’s my perspective so obviously won’t apply across the board. But that’s all I got. So I think Passenger is trying to justify a vote with too many words when there’s no way you can make that long a case about anyone.

I was also wondering this and came to the conclusion that they came across as over explainy in 59 because they were prompted to write 59 from a stilted and unnatural question+source.

[Frogsterking]

scum don't need to pretend to be scumhunting this game

Huh? What do you know that I dont

Setup

General Information

• This is a Large Theme themed around a group of militants and a government operative.
  
• The
  Residents
  are the uninformed majority and the
  Delegation
  is the informed minority.
  
• There is a
  Government
  operative who is
  Antisocial
  . If they win, all other players will lose.
  
• The setup does not meet
  Normal Guidelines
  but has no
  Bastard
  elements.
  
• Multitasking
  and
  Daytalk
  is enabled by default.

Probably this?

[Frogsterking]

Smart penguin.
Would be funny if two people come to replace him.

Buttering up maybe.

[Frogsterking]

I like how Flavia just ignores everything AI over the last couple pages which would be inconvenient for them to take a stance on.

[Frogsterking]

OK, did post 74 change your read?

What a useless fucking question.

Ah, psychoanalysis...not my favorite but what can you do?

What makes you assume Passenger is telling the truth?

[Frogsterking]

As such, take nearly everything he says in the early game with a grain of salt.

Or you could listen and hit scum early more often but that would require both thinking and listening at the same time.

Thinking and reading* if you have poor control over your phonological loop.

I have reviewed the thread and have a full team solve virtue of you guys being really easy reads.

In case anyone's confused this isn't a reaction test, I do have a full team solve I expect to be roughly 2/3 precise. I'm clarifying it's not a reaction test specifically because I know that no one interprets me to be joking because I'm sharp enough to realize a player who claims to think I'm joking is unlikely to be the telling the truth.

OK, did post 74 change your read?

What a useless fucking question.

Ah, psychoanalysis...not my favorite but what can you do?

What makes you assume Passenger is telling the truth?

[Frogsterking]

PS: I'm taking frogsterking's readings on page 1 as a joke, not them being serious

[Frogsterking]

At least one scum has now exceeded 4 posts.

[Frogsterking]

@Flavia it's time for you to post a full reads list. It's passed time, really. I'm not accepting the same response from you as I did from Herta, you are different players and I want a read on every player from you even if a bunch of them are null.

Since you chose to ignore my question about why you thought i was pretending, i will be making my own conclusions on that matter.

@Kookaburra I'm not as confident in my read on you as the other two, fwiw #110 at least is more likely to come from a Resident. I'll let others decide if our interactions look TvT or not.

[Frogsterking]

Hello everyone

- The least awesome head

Which one posted this and why are all of you ghosting the thread?

[Frogsterking]

Hello everyone

- The least awesome head

Which one posted this and why are all of you ghosting the thread?

[Frogsterking]

@Kookaburra I'm not as confident in my read on you as the other two, fwiw #110 at least is more likely to come from a Resident. I'll let others decide if our interactions look TvT or not.

@Bell
@maybe Passenger
@group scum
@anyone who thinks they have good D1 reads

[Frogsterking]

If partner equity is going to become a theme, I'd like to propose Passenger has partner equity with N.Y.M and Flavia. When players are hyper accurate (like I

sometimes

am on D1) it can force scum to make scumtells they wouldn't ordinarily make (like chainsawing.) I can link to you at least one completed game where scum were forced to react this way to me. 135 looks... unnatural to me? It pings me in a way Passenger's posting hasn't done yet. I feel there can be an element of projection in it where Passenger accuses me of approaching other slots in bad faith while they themselves manufacture a case by misrepresenting my motivations.

I'll admit Koko was a part of my team solve I mentioned earlier, but now with more information (from their wagon piling on) I feel their reaction to pressure is more indicative of a Resident who is wrongly accused.

Also yes I may as well out my team solve is N.Y.M/Flavia/Passenger, it was previously N.Y.M/Flavia/Koko.

My opinion is that there is an element of Price's Law at play, where Flavia and N.Y.M are abandoning thread control and Passenger feels motivated to take up the reigns as a more active scum poster.

I'll wait a little bit longer before I get into my ideas about hunting for the Dictator.

[Frogsterking]

I think that Flavia's recent pop in (160 and 162) is incredibly scummy.

Like, the fact that when she came back to the thread, the thing she had to comment on was furtive's miller claim and bell's response from page 1, and then flashed forward to the current page to defend against a scum read pointed her way, and then left the thread with no comment on anything else.

It makes it feel like she wanted to make a comment on *something* but also did not want to touch any of the current discussions with a 10-foot pole.

~Luke

I kind of had the opposite reaction to flavia’s posting. It more gave me the impression of town just posting thoughts coming to their mind rather than being particularly agenda-based. I also liked her comment in relation to the early suspicion on me (I think scum would have been more likely to just let that play out) and the comments about psychoanalysis felt weird in a genuine way?

I feel like it's worth self-reflecting about your strengths and weaknesses in your Town game and whether they are inversely proportional to my own based on the stage of the game (early, middle, late game.) I'd like to see if you are willing to do this because I'm currently considering an FoS on you and how you react will inform my read.

Consider:

VOTE: Lammolde

I believe with a

moderate

level of certainty this is a scum flip. It's mostly based on tone but there are a few things I can point out that are concrete. I think the tone read is reliable in this case because Lammolde hasn't played in 5 years so they're having a hard time pretending to scum hunt.

I was playing anti town by lying (concealing) but I think it's good play because I wanted to give Lammolde time to spew their team, and I tried to breadcrumb that my read flip is coming:

VOTE: Lammolde
Why does your gut say it’s Frog?

I just read the roster and got bad vibes from his name i guess. You can get a townie point for pushing things along. Enchant gets a scummy point for post #6.

Lammolde,

Is there any reason you can't post a list of your reads so far?

UNVOTE: CSF VOTE: BBT

Breadcrumb something something

That vote on BBT was a filler vote because I wanted to wait on voting Lammolde until I questioned them.

VOTE: Lammolde
Why does your gut say it’s Frog?

I just read the roster and got bad vibes from his name i guess. You can get a townie point for pushing things along. Enchant gets a scummy point for post #6.

Imo scum would stay as semi-active because the silent people are most sus and prone to vote wagons and investigation; And if they are the most active, people would start thinking "Why aren't they dead yet" later on and put them to vote wagons and investigation.

These posts are scummy by tone and I think are written with the sole purpose of obtaining Townreads, ie 40 and 83 are the reaction I think these were fishing for. I believe the fishing part with a

low

level of certainty and the scummy by tone with a

moderate

level of certainty.

Lammolde,

Is there any reason you can't post a list of your reads so far?

#1 To be honest

,

#2 i am simply incapable of making any conclusion out of fluff(Not sure if this is the accurate term) posts meaning i have no read on:

Enchant, Roden, MalaKittens, BBT, Cakez and Tet. When i see posts like "Gameboy advance content" or "mew" the only thing that pops into my mind is ...ok then. Since this is early on in day 1 the only town reads i have are due to the fact that some people are active and trying to advance talks by asking questions etc.

#3 One observation i made is that Bella was not really into this game when she posted:

VOTE: Frog
My gut is right around 30% of the time. Haven't played in 5(?) years and the only one i remember from the people here is Bella.
She was scum in my first newbie game if anybody cares.

Did I flake? I can't remember you, sorry! I don't like this post though

If she payed a bit of attention she would notice my account is brand new. My name, avatar and ip address are all different. The question would then be "What was your main account's name".
So does her not paying attention at that moment mean she isn't really into this game thus making her scummy?

#4 Maybe. Maybe she was feeling bad, or maybe she got a boring role thus the lack of enthusiasm. Maybe people don't look at avatars and account creation dates and only look at names.

I do not know

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

#1

This is qualifying and implies they don't feel entitled to post in the thread.

#2

This is a simple excuse not to post reads while shading other players.

#3

This is an attempt to pocket MariaR by supporting her indirectly against Bella.

#4

This is a nasty hedge/fence sitting on Bella.

I feel

moderately

certain on #1, #2 and #4, and

low

certain on

#3

.

Kudos to you Frog for sticking to this as much as you did. UNVOTE: Frog

And finally I think this is a pretty blatant attempt to pocket me. I'm

highly

certain this is an attempt to pocket me, and my feeling is that it comes from scum, but I can only be

low

certain it's an actual scum attempt vs another one.

The main things gained from waiting on pushing Lammolde is that they shaded the fuck out of Bella and Enchant and maybe tried to pocket MariaR as well as Roden I think. I think the biggest thing learned is that I think Enchant is Town. Let me write up some examples here.

(Etc. Etc. these posts went on forever, in this game I was the SK milking my D1 reads--which were all correct IIRC--for Town cred.)

VOTE: lammolde
I'm sold

Is it bad that I'm not?

I'm not sure how much there is to be gained in winding up lammolde even more but I could be wrong about that too

Lammolde has been yeeted day 1. they were a

mafia JOAT (roleblock, strongman, ninja)

.

the sun sets, it is now night 1. sunrise in (expired on 2022-09-24 23:45:00).

as they haven't posted in the last 24 hours, Roden and SirCakez must respond to the nightstart pm to let me know if they're still playing.

[Frogsterking]

I townread Passenger

Congrats, you have now ensured your survival to endgame.

(I'm half-joking, you may be right for all I know, it feels a little presumptive to me though)

[Frogsterking]

Frog I get what you’re saying, but you being right on a read and me being wrong on a read in one game is not something that affects my approach all that much.

I was taught in improv that "yes, but" = a deceptive "no."

In your own estimation how likely are you to FoS scum on D1? And would you describe yourself as an individual who is unwilling to learn from their own mistakes?

[Frogsterking]

Frog I get what you’re saying, but you being right on a read and me being wrong on a read in one game is not something that affects my approach all that much.

I was taught in improv that "yes, but" = a deceptive "no."

In your own estimation how likely are you to FoS scum on D1? And would you describe yourself as an individual who is unwilling to learn from their own mistakes?

I'm not doing any deep soul searching here ftr, this is a line of discussion I've found to be AI in the past.

[Frogsterking]

How specifically am I misrepresenting your motivations? As for 135, I found it very hard to follow the specificities of your interaction with Kokabiel so I wanted to logically map it on paper before I came to a conclusion.

The misrep comes from summarizing my interaction with Koko and then attributing a scum motivation on my end when my motivation could more easily be explained as a Resident trying to solve the game from an uninformed perspective.

[Frogsterking]

I think your question of asking me to rationally breakdown why/where they are scumtelling is good and is content I am capable of delivering when I'm calm. I'm going to go for a quick walk to blow off some steam (I wrote this part last.) As far as describing to you the nature of my read on Flavia I think I captured the true essence of it below.

But talk to me about Flavia. You clearly think that I’m wrong. Grandstanding is not going to sway me, so talk to me about your read there.

I think Flavia's posts are cringey and unnatural in a way that makes them likely (with

moderate

certainty) to be new or a player returning to the game after a long hiatus who was unfortunate to recieve a scum PM. Their posts are the kind where if hired I might screenshot their ISO to be used for the digital Britannica's definition of "scummy." I'm very neurotic and it causes me physical distress to see a player describe themselves as likely to FoS scum on D1 and also be Townreading Flavia. I would describe the motivation behind Flavia's posts as "desperately attempting to pocket anyone who is gullible enough to listen." On a purely intuitive level I associate their posts with green slime, the image of a snake and the con artists from this Jordan Peele skit:

Of those four I can talk myself into scumreading Flavia if necessary; something about them still doesn't sit right with me.

I'm actually not exaggerating about my intuitive response to Flavia, I alluded to it here in my first post. I can empathize to an extent the impulse to Townread them and I think it requires insight rather than pure logic to see through that impulse, and unless something happens to me on my walk, when I return I will break down logically the holes in their fasād to the best of my ability (that's not entirely true, I will just give it a good-enough effort.)

[Frogsterking]

ego

I didn’t get a pm in my inbox and didn’t check the hydra inbox. I didn’t leave you out to dry Yume. I just literally found out the game had started.

Bullshit.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Flavia

Hello everyone! I am here, ready to be a shining light against the delegation!

VOTE: DeasVail

VOTE: Star Power

I hate shining lights. Always being deceptive.

Shading a slot which seems likely to become unpopular. Projection.

Hello! To make up for all the votes in Frog’s post, I will not vote.

Letting him take over all the votes? Opposition politician role?

A useless question in an effort to appear solvey. Low key pocketing vibes toward Dease.

Hello everyone! I am here, ready to be a shining light against the delegation!

VOTE: DeasVail

JUST the delegation?

I am kind of thinking that StarPower appearing to not know that there is a 3rd party makes them more likely to be town.

Seriously doubt that the actual 3rd party would not be too self-conscious to frame it that way, so imo town>scum>3rd party

But mafia can't collaborate with the 3rd party in this game. Everybody losses. So, makes sense mafia would be as interested in this 3rd party as the town. Or not that interested yet as the game just started.

Insight into Flavia's point of view: they think a lot about scum win con and not much else.

I'm trying to make posts made so far AI in my head, but I'm not really coming up with much.

Must be scum out of ideas.

This is also what I thought. It seems like DeasVail is playing from the point of view of someone who is looking over posts with a checklist of tells to appear useful, rather than engaging in actual solving.

VOTE: DeasVail

Maybe but why them specifically over hmm...basically everyone else, excluding Bombay and maybe Bell. Rest of us weren't exactly overtly solving stuff.

PS: I'm taking frogsterking's readings on page 1 as a joke, not them being serious

Low key pocketing vibes toward Dease, pointlessly listing players in the game (seemingly...), TMI into the gamestate.

As for their comment about me:

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... 8.2B1.0.29
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... 8.2B1.0.29

Two scumtells in one. Discrediting a player who is aggressively solving as well as discrediting an argument against them by claiming it to be a joke. Empirically I can also say that no Town has ever reacted to me by assuming that I'm "joking" and on more than one occasion scum have pretended to interpret me to be "joking." Trolling, bizarre, weird, off-color, scum, "toxic" etc. are all responses I've recieved from Town, "joking" is not one of them. I can't provide direct evidence at this time as per site rules so you will have to take my word for it that to claim my first post was a joke is an example of an unnatural thought process which is likely to come from scum.

This feels like you misunderstood. My point was that the mafia would be

more

cognizant of the existence of the 3rd party, while StarPower's post reads like someone who was not thinking about the existence of a 3rd party.

Therefore, town being the most likely alignment to make such a post.

Not the basis for a strong read, but as far as page 1 posts go, it is nice to have an inkling on someone

~Luke

OK, I see where you come from.

The difference between DeasVail and the people who have been posting but not DeasVail is two things.

1. The fact that DeasVail posted about his inability to solve. This shows that DeasVail is scum concerned whether people believe he is solving or not. Statistically this has proven to be a weak but >rand tell.

2. The content of his post. He says that he’s trying to make posts AI in his head, but can’t. Scum when out of ideas tries to do exactly that: look at posts and see if they follow a list of common tells, rather than organically notice a post and realize that it follows a tell, which town does. I suppose the gist of what I’m saying is that DeasVail is scum trying to find reads by creating thought processes, meanwhile town finds reads not by creating thought processes but by simply having those thought processes.

OK, did post 74 change your read?

Ah, psychoanalysis...not my favorite but what can you do?

Low key pocketing vibes toward Bombay as well as Passenger and more shading the scary Resident who is trying to solve the game. Very useless question directed toward Passenger about 74, remember "a question a day keeps the tracker away." https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... 8.2B0.5.29

If you don't believe me, keep reading this post and tell me how much you think Flavia thought about the answer to their question about 74.

Well, might seem so but ignoring isn't the best word to use. Reserving judgement till I can come to a conclusion.

You think so? Thing is Bell made one statement about DeasVail being scum out of ideas. Passenger asks a question about what means to make AI posts in their head. Next post, votes expanding on Bell's reasoning. I'm actually interested how things...change. If they do.

See no reason to lie about you liking psychoanalysis. I mean, lots of people do. Just not my liking...all those associations. Never believed in them

Taking a reserved and cautious approach is a scum tell for most players. Quibbling over semantics is scummy. Summarizing what happened in the game (and reminding us that there are other players in the game by listing their names again) without any attempt to parse for alignment information is scummy. The bit at the end about psychoanalysis is pointless jabber which seems pockety toward anyone willing to listen.

On page 5? Sorry, I'm not clairvoyant, mafia or really a good player. You'll get what I can think of now:

The Bombay: liked post 44, though I can really say I agree with that logics. Seems solvey. Maybe, maybe town.
Oh, I think the whole vote stuff about that vote is just playing Freud. Starting a random wagon might not be very efficient but it seems as much as I've read on this site to be a very used tactic.

Kokabiel: post 47- hmm, maybe they believe they've seen something but the way I see "a cigar is just a cigar". Don't get what scum-DeasVale would get from asking to join a vote that as far as I can tell is pretty much random. Basically, they either are trying to solve but I am not getting the logic or trying to find a reason to vote someone. Not sure yet.

Andresvmp- Post 94 has some logic. Granted, pretty non-committed but it was was page 3 or 4.

Furtiveglance- person who claimed miller. Suppose for the moment we can't disbelieve this claim.

DeasVail- so, I guess he tries to find town. Which is logical. No idea why you'd have a list so early. You might be contagious.

You- post 11. Reason I took it as a joke is that well, IMHO, anyone who can say who is mafia/town based on 1 post is either mafia or should work for FBI. Post 66- you really think two experienced mafia players couldn't make that interaction? Other than intuition why it couldn't be SvS? Post 87 is logical question, though didn't see Johnny post any reason to be suspicious of DeasVail? rest is mostly you knowing the whole mafia team is stuff and being overly assertive.

Passenger- told you why I found some posts...worrying.

The rest are the rest. No real idea.

My alleged "psychoanalysis" indicates Flavia is the type of player who doesn't feel confident in faking SvS interactions or making up reads on scum buddies. I think almost all of the above are Town, if not all. I also don't think Flavia has interacted with their partners very much if at all. My "pychoanalysis" extends deeper however; Flavia

feels isolated

and Flavia

is the most active groupscum.

Also, if you want to know what a Town response looks like, try this:

Softclaim present.

VOTE: johnny

Hello everyone! I am here, ready to be a shining light against the delegation!

VOTE: DeasVail

I'm gonna need coffee.

Time's up, Herta. I need you to stop thread flaking and write a reads list now.

Rude.

Marci is town.

or sometimes this:

I'm waiting to hear more from you about your own reads, Rad.

Sure. I'm leaning town on a few people. Off The Hook. PenguinPower. Pooky. Nothing specific about them, just some early vibes that I don't weigh too heavily but they are there.

Lean scum on The toad. I think 156 is reading too deeply into my question. I could only come up with 2 good explanations as noted in 167, and I'm leaning towards the scum read.

No other real reads atm. I think Lukewarm has given enough good content to come to a reasonable early read, which I might go do now. Most people are still joking around so it's hard to tell what's what yet. Also this is such a huge game I don't even know how to approach it. I think the wagon on Ceph was interesting but not sure what I can get out of it yet.

I'd stake my life on the fact that #115 from Flavia is horseshit which was improvised on the spot.

Random or serious?

"A question a day keeps the tracker away." Remember to continue reading for Flavia's follow up to their questions in 103 and 133.

This doesn’t make sense, because Marci’s vote was clearly RVS. From this incorrect premise Kokabiel comes to the logical conclusion that Frogster is town and DeasVail is scum. Her assumption that Marci is scum for her naked vote is an NAI overreaction.

Do you agree with that logic or are you saying is making sense based on Kokabiel logic. Cuz I'm not seeing it.


Also, the miller claim. Never played with one. But from what I've read, it's basically a claim that's usually treated as "consider it true for the moment cuz we can't really disprove it". That's why I don't see much in Bell's reaction- said that it could be totally true, but could come from either town or mafia who played with a miller.

"A question a day keeps the tracker away." Now we have a question in 160 to stay mindful for the follow up as well. Here they go bringing up Bell again. Why? Why do they keep reminding us Bell exists in the game? Do they think his posts can be viewed as scummy and they're hoping we will all suddenly notice and miselim him?

If partner equity is going to become a theme, I'd like to propose Passenger has partner equity with N.Y.M and Flavia. When players are hyper accurate (like I

sometimes

am on D1) it can force scum to make scumtells they wouldn't ordinarily make (like chainsawing.) I can link to you at least one completed game where scum were forced to react this way to me. 135 looks... unnatural to me? It pings me in a way Passenger's posting hasn't done yet. I feel there can be an element of projection in it where Passenger accuses me of approaching other slots in bad faith while they themselves manufacture a case by misrepresenting my motivations.

I'll admit Koko was a part of my team solve I mentioned earlier, but now with more information (from their wagon piling on) I feel their reaction to pressure is more indicative of a Resident who is wrongly accused.

Also yes I may as well out my team solve is N.Y.M/Flavia/Passenger, it was previously N.Y.M/Flavia/Koko.

My opinion is that there is an element of Price's Law at play, where Flavia and N.Y.M are abandoning thread control and Passenger feels motivated to take up the reigns as a more active scum poster.

I'll wait a little bit longer before I get into my ideas about hunting for the Dictator.

If it becomes a theme- maybe I should figure it out what this partner equity is.

And you've figured it out I'm mafia all the while back. Your confidence is impressive...though very wrong. But I'm really curious...how did NYM got into that team. And when did we abandon threat control when I posted very little and NYM posted- exactly once.

Low key pocketing vibes toward me, mistaking me for a mere frog who will flip their read because I got a little attention (I am not a frog, I am both a frogster and a king.) Playing dumb pretending not to understand the concept partner equity refers to even though it's immediately obvious that it refers to associative tells is an example of a unnatural thought process which is more likely from scum.

I have some empirical evidence 162 is more likely to come from scum which I can share as per site rules but I am getting burnt out so I will save the rest of my analysis of this post, the one below and my conclusion for another time.

It makes it feel like she wanted to make a comment on *something*
~Luke

That part might be true. I try to talk more.

Maybe, but it was an observation related to my question to furtive.

Current discussion? Well, I am here: Kokabiel is convinced asking for votes on them is scum. Plus the whole inviting vs invited being a sign of town/mafia. Nope, don't agree with this logic but I don't think mafia would be so willing to put it all on that hill.

Frog- they made it clear they scumread me from the beginning. I was sincerely curious how they came to the conclusion the team is me/Passenger and the person who posted once.

[Frogsterking]

ego

I didn’t get a pm in my inbox and didn’t check the hydra inbox. I didn’t leave you out to dry Yume. I just literally found out the game had started.

Bullshit.

Charmed

No, my name is awesome “dead weight” Nancy and we went through this spiel already with my log in issues in Masque, so you know I don’t make stuff like that up.

I trust you you will eventually come to your senses like you did in that game.

So far liking - but also want to shake - you, furtive, Passenger and maybe Herta.

I don’t know when Mastina will show up. Feel free to accuse of lying about that too.

~Awesome “dead weight” Nancy

1) Did you spend all that time you weren't posting in this game coming up with this response? The difference between this game and Masque is that you posted about your trouble logging in on page 1 a few minutes after the game started.

2) Why aren't you voting Flavia? You will have to bus them anyway and I noticed you have no scum reads. That's an awful lot of townreads to pull from skimming and I think if you were Town you would be more skeptical of my play so far.

[Frogsterking]

Hello everyone

- The least awesome head

Which one posted this and why are all of you ghosting the thread?

I also noticed that you declined to comment on this here post, N.Y.M. Why is that?

[Frogsterking]

So you can continue to wrongly push me and look stupid doing so, up to you. I can’t bus anyone because I’m town and if you knew a damn thing about my meta, you would know that I don’t have sr’s straight out of the gate in most cases.

I’m taking my fucking time because we have a post cap of only 125 posts with 3 heads. I had 250 in Happy Face and almost had 200 posts in under two rl days.

I will look at your Flavia case but going out of your way to piss me off when you’re apparently being pretty dense here because I once again repeat: I don’t make stuff like that up. Btw, I did check our discord and Mastina should be on tomorrow.

I already know you aren't group scum because of Flavia spew. The problem is you can still be Dictator. These players all get the Flavia-cleared groupscum stamp of approval:


Kokabiel
Dease,
Passenger,
N.Y.M
Bombay
Bell
Myself

This leads me to believe andres is scum with Flavia because:

1) this comment

Andresvmp- Post 94 has some logic. Granted, pretty non-committed but it was was page 3 or 4.

2) I have played with andres as both alignments and skipping a night after promising to be back is a red flag from andres

Anyway, I’m going to sleep. I’m back tomorrow.

3) andres matches the profile of a lurker slot leaving Flavia to feel isolated in her scum game.

So my current solve for group scum is Flavia/andres and one more player who both has less than eleven posts and isn't excluded in the list above. The players who meet both of these criteria are:

Herta
Furtive
Penguin
Starpower

Now if I sheep Nancy and Bell's Townread on Furtive, I assume Flavia isn't aligned with Star because of their first post, and I give some lenience to Herta because they clapped back at me in a Townie way when I demanded reads from them, that leaves me with this team solve:

Flavia/andres/Penguin

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Flavia

Seems like a fun wagon.

Why this wagon and not kokabiel?

Who?

They mean Kookaburra/Koko

Do you have time to provide constructive criticism on 193 and 197?

[Frogsterking]

This is an interesting frogster. Not sure if power woof. Attempt.
I dunno if frogster scum is any good.

What do you mean by "interesting" ?

I don't think my scum game is good especially compared to my Town game but I've been able to claw my way to a win in most of my scum games. I just completed a mini normal today which was my best scum performance to date IMO. This post from there is the pinnacle of my achievement as scum:

viewtopic.php?p=13545293#p13545293

No, you aren't missing any relevant context other than I posted it ~12 hours before the deadline for a reason.

[Frogsterking]

Flavia was just online for a while by the way and declined to comment.

[Frogsterking]

But talk to me about Flavia. You clearly think that I’m wrong. Grandstanding is not going to sway me, so talk to me about your read there.

I guess despite not finishing elaborating my read on Flavia I did write a lot about it. Is there a reason you townread me in this game when from my point of view I'm playing similar to my SK game where I don't think you ever townread me?

[Frogsterking]

I read Kookaburra as a wrongly accused Townie though I went back and forth on them. I think being defensive is NAI because they are getting pushed hard. I currently expect Kookaburra to flip Town and that they are a counterwagon to save Flavia. I think Penguin's vote hop onto Kookaburra was sketch. I'm expecting andres to stumble in here and vote Kookaburra.

[Frogsterking]

I townread Passenger

Congrats, you have now ensured your survival to endgame.

(I'm half-joking, you may be right for all I know, it feels a little presumptive to me though)

Let me get this straight. furtive’s townread on me is presumptive, but your team solve with me in it is not presumptive?

You aren't in my team solve. *snap snap* sharpen up.

[Frogsterking]

My team solve is Flavia/andres/Penguin.

[Frogsterking]

yeah idk frog I’m not feeling flavia-scum

Is it like a brain read or a heart read?

[Frogsterking]

Frog, if you are getting the feeling that Flavia is scummy, while also getting the feeling that she feels isolated. Why is your conclusion "she is the most active groupcum" and not "she seems like 3p"?

Because what I pointed out in my big post are groupscum tells. I think 3rd parties read more like Townies who are underperforming.

I townread Passenger

Congrats, you have now ensured your survival to endgame.

(I'm half-joking, you may be right for all I know, it feels a little presumptive to me though)

Let me get this straight. furtive’s townread on me is presumptive, but your team solve with me in it is not presumptive?

You aren't in my team solve. *snap snap* sharpen up.

I was definitely in your team solve when you made that post.

Touché.

[Frogsterking]

How specifically am I misrepresenting your motivations? As for 135, I found it very hard to follow the specificities of your interaction with Kokabiel so I wanted to logically map it on paper before I came to a conclusion.

The misrep comes from summarizing my interaction with Koko and then attributing a scum motivation on my end when my motivation could more easily be explained as a Resident trying to solve the game from an uninformed perspective.

Can you elaborate? What about your posts can be more easily explained by town trying to solve?

Everything.

[Frogsterking]

Passenger made a scum tell by the way. Are they still voting me? If I'm wrong on Flavia and right on Kookaburra then it would make sense for scum to be on a vanity wagon right now because they know it's a TvT cross.

[Frogsterking]

I townread Passenger

Congrats, you have now ensured your survival to endgame.

(I'm half-joking, you may be right for all I know, it feels a little presumptive to me though)

Let me get this straight. furtive’s townread on me is presumptive, but your team solve with me in it is not presumptive?

You aren't in my team solve. *snap snap* sharpen up.

I was definitely in your team solve when you made that post.

This is the scum tell by the way.

And if I take Dease word for it on Flavia and stick to my read onKookaburra then like I said it makes sense for Passenger to be attempting to discredit me right now while Town is split between two Townie wagons. If Passenger's vote is still on me I'm going to start pushing them instead.

[Frogsterking]

Flavia (4) - Bell, Herta, Frogsterking, N.Y. M
Kokabiel (3) - The Bombay, DeasVail, PenguinPower

Frogsterking (1) - Passenger

Yup. I'm going in this direction now. Kookaburra and Flavia are scummy-looking Town and Passenger is scum pushing a vanity wagon on me to try and keep me in the PoE. Passenger is way too concerned about being placed in a D1 team solve which wasn't even current at the time they bitched about it.

VOTE: Passenger

[Frogsterking]

N.Y.M, try rereading Passenger under the assumption that Kookaburra and Flavia are Residents and tell me what you think.

[Frogsterking]

Town (most to least): The Bombay, Frogsterking, Passenger, DeasVail, JohnnyFarrar, Herta, Flavia, PenguinPower

Why does Passenger scum read me, especially over Kookaburra or Flavia? I reread their ISO and their trajectory only makes sense if they know Flavia and Kookaburra are Town and they're hoping to keep me in the PoE.

[Frogsterking]

OK, did post 74 change your read?

What a useless fucking question.

Ah, psychoanalysis...not my favorite but what can you do?

What makes you assume Passenger is telling the truth?

No, this is a useless question. What possible reason would I have to lie about that?

TMI Flavia is Town IMO

[Frogsterking]

Oh fuck holy post limit

Spoiler:

Breaking down this interaction:

Post 1

Kokabiel says Marci’s vote on her is scummy.
Kokabiel says Marci asking Frogster to join the wagon is towny for Frogster.
Kokabiel says DeasVail inviting himself onto the wagon is scummy for DeasVail.

Post 2

Frogster asks why DeasVail is scummier than him, because they did the same thing.
Frogster says that Kokabiel is trying to start a TvT fight between DeasVail and Johnny

Post 3

Kokabiel asks Frogster why he claims that she faked her evaluation.
Kokabiel asks Frogster why he never asked Marci why she faked her read on her.

Post 4

Frogster asks Kokabiel why he would ask Marci why she voted Kokabiel.
Frogster asks Kokabiel why DeasVail inviting himself on the wagon is scummy.
Frogster asks Kokabiel why she disagrees with Johnny’s case on DeasVail.
Frogster asks Kokabiel why she is asking him questions.

My Analysis:

Kokabiel scumreads Marci because Marci’s vote on her was a naked vote with no explanation. This doesn’t make sense, because Marci’s vote was clearly RVS. From this incorrect premise Kokabiel comes to the logical conclusion that Frogster is town and DeasVail is scum. Her assumption that Marci is scum for her naked vote is an NAI overreaction.

Frogster does not understand both Kokabiel’s premise and her logic, and thinks she must be trying to start a fight between DeasVail and Johnny. This point is invalid because her premise is wrong but NAI and her logic is correct. Frogster is scummy for this post because he assumes that because he doesn’t understand something, it must be scummy. If he was trying to engage with her in good faith he would have waited for her answer.

Kokabiel correctly points out Frogster’s leap of “I don’t understand” to “this is scum.” Frogster responds by asking Kokabiel questions she has already answered and then he asks her what she intends to achieve by asking him questions. Frogster also says that he will always scumread things he doesn’t understand.

By this point, Frogster has conceded he engaged in scummy behavior, and all of his reasons for Kokabiel being scum are invalid because of that.
VOTE: Frogster

TMI Kookaburra is Town.

Sort of why I actually think unfortunately, frogsterking is more likely town here.

Vote Passenger then if you are also Town. Passenger was white knighting you and Kookaburra.

[Frogsterking]

Dease I'll sheep your read on Flavia. Vote Passenger please.

[Frogsterking]

The fact that DeasVail posted about his inability to solve. This shows that DeasVail is scum concerned whether people believe he is solving or not. Statistically this has proven to be a weak but >rand tell.

This is another scum tell I missed. Passeger wants to be percieved as reasonable.

[Frogsterking]

Holy shit Passenger's ISO is terrible. A real emperor-has-no-clothes situation.

[Frogsterking]

That's what's up. Kookaburra vote Passenger.

[Frogsterking]

Kokabiel is an

Advocate

!

That's what's up. Kookaburra vote Passenger.

I'm a fucking Advocate too: for murdering Delegate Passenger in the streets and making an example out of him to the other Delegates.

[Frogsterking]

What triggered that disclosure?

VOTE: Kokabiel

Nope. Wrong vote. Herta if you're Town switch to Passenger.

[Frogsterking]

mod vla until Monday

Oh dear lord it's another one of these Towns.

[Frogsterking]

What triggered that disclosure?

VOTE: Kokabiel

Nope. Wrong vote. Herta if you're Town switch to Passenger.

VOTE: passenger

I'm confused. I get shut Passenger scum maybe but I don't understand the Advocate thing.

Thank God I thought you were going to vote Kookaburra and peace out for three days lol.

I don't get it either tbh I'm just rolling with it. It could always be a Town Crier type role that has nothing to do with Kookaburra. We'll have to see what Kookaburra says. My first thought was that it was an activated IC type role but Kookaburra doesn't seem to be around.

I think Kookaburra vs Flavia is Town vs Town wagons because of Passenger's presence on a vanity wagon and the fact he white knighted them both. If I'm wrong about any of those three alignments I'll eat my socks.

[Frogsterking]

I'll eat my socks.

like - with any seasoning or sauce, or just plain socks?

Just plain, clean socks from my drawer. Not off my feet, but no seasoning either.

[Frogsterking]

I'll eat my socks.

like - with any seasoning or sauce, or just plain socks?

Some wasabi perhaps? (callback)

Mmm wasabi

[Frogsterking]

Passenger I saw you complained again about my FoS on you but your lame protests aren't spicy enough for me. I'm hoping we can get a really big wagon on you and then your posts will become more interesting.

[Frogsterking]

I was white-knighting Kokabiel and Flavia… but you also said earlier

Nah my read trajectory on you makes sense, re-evaluating is Townie and being too consistent is a scum tell. My read changed on you because I'm uninformed so it takes me longer than you to figure out what's going on. Like I said, this is really vanilla BnB scum whining your putting out, I need something spicier if I'm expected to pay attention to your complaints.

[Frogsterking]

re-evaluating is Townie and being too consistent is a scum tell.

For the record, having reads that make no sense is also a scum tell, and your vanity wagon on me makes no sense unless you already knew Flavia and Kookaburra were Town at the time I started pushing them.

[Frogsterking]

re-evaluating is Townie and being too consistent is a scum tell.

For the record, having reads that make no sense is also a scum tell, and your vanity wagon on me makes no sense unless you already knew Flavia and Kookaburra were Town at the time I started pushing them.

@Passenger

[Frogsterking]

It's a Moonlight dancer with an additional on-death trigger, and no it's sadly not a vengeful.
I claimed and gave out my reads so there is no info you can get from me apart from the flip. So y'all useless lazy town without any reads better start working. 4 Days remaining, you can always come back to finish the job.

PS: votePassenger please

[Frogsterking]

Koka and Flavia are flipping Town yall, votePassenger

[Frogsterking]

Continuing on:
I realize that Frogsterking actually does vote Flavia here, with a case no less, but tbh, it kinda feels like a bus tone-wise. It feels like Frogsterking is using logic he knows is good to make a push he knows is good, but that he isn't actually invested in the push because he is making it to be performative.

I'll admit I could be wrong, he could be town casing scum, or scum making a hollow push on town.

But gutwise he looks like scum distancing

The above is clearly a bad faith attempt to sort my slot and I don't know mastina well enough to know if they are unwilling to learn from past mistakes. The section I've quoted above is probably the dumbest most eye rolling thing posted in this game so far which makes it scummy on principle (discrediting obv Town for bad reasons) https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... 8.2B1.0.29

Here's mastina making a similar mistake previously:

Occam's Razor suggests that mastina is Town who tone reads me as scum and is unwilling to let it go.

Though Tone plays a part I shall CONFESS, there is more to my read than that, as it is every bit of your contributions which REVEAL you to be among the DAMNED: your focus, viewpoints, where you are voting, how you are engaging, etc.

You have been JUDGED, and you have been found RED.

Yes I was correct, mastina flipped Town, and no mastina was not correct, I was a Town who was aggressively solving as I am here. I would give them a little bit of credit because in TfT I had a special ability which enabled me to play the game with two accounts, one of which a secret account given to me by the mods, so from mastina's point of view I wasn't doing as much as I am here, but I will revoke that goodwill on account of them seeing me solving and saying "oh it must be a bus."

If anyone knows mastina better I want to know if they are a player who is incapable of learning from past mistakes, because if they aren't then this is just a very dumb deception to keep me in the PoE.

I would like to conclude this post by quoting a section from my favorite guide, "How to throw games." https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Alison%29

"Tinfoil Theories
So despite your best efforts to derail the game, it seems pretty locked up. You have a consensus towncore - made up of people who’ve been mech cleared, people who’ve vastly exceeded their wolf range, and strong town players who’ve buried multiple wolves. You have a well-defined POE and the threadstate is strong and healthy, with robust debate and high morale. What could you possibly do to make this game go wrong?

The answer is tinfoil and paranoia. A town is nothing more than a mob of paranoid yahoos, and if there’s one thing those are good at doing, it’s turning on each other. Make sure not to bring up tinfoil suspicion on people when the game is going poorly, as you might inadvertently actually catch a deepwolf that way. It’s best to do it when the game is going well and there are no indications at all that the town is barking up the wrong tree.

Beginners to gamethrowing often think that they must create compelling, nuanced cases in order to bring suspicion down on someone who has been beyond suspicion for most of the game. Not so. The undisputed king of tinfoil, Alex Jones, has never made a coherent argument in his life. Yet he has swindled millions more people into believing obvious nonsense than you ever will. So follow his example. No chain of logic is too dubious, no associative too indecipherable, for you to somehow make it about how the claimed PR who has buried 2 wolves is fooling everyone.

Start by looking at associatives with flipped wolves. Associatives are like a coin; every one has two sides, and as the person constructing the case, you have the right to choose which side applies to your position. Did the mafia townread your tinfoil victim? That’s a classic case of wolves trying to clear each other. But if they scumread your victim, it’s obviously bussing or TMI. (If you’re instead trying to tinfoil clear an obvious mafia, reverse these arguments. A townread is TMI, while a scumread is them trying to get a villager killed.)

Next, examine the nightkills and their legacies. I know, I know - you were taught in Gamethrowing 101 to make sure that the town doesn’t look at dead town legacies at all. But now you can use them for your own ends. As with associatives, a dead town that scumread your victim was obviously killed for their reads, while one that townread them was killed for WIFOM.

If you’re doing everything right, you should be able to get a few paranoid townies on your side, while your victim starts to become concerned at the tides turning against them. Sensing a shift in the gamestate, they will no doubt try to defend themselves by refuting your arguments and undermining your case. That’s when you hit them with your trump card: they are a good wolf.

That’s right. The person you are scumreading is skilled at playing the mafia alignment. That means that they are always mafia, and if you ever townread them, no matter how solid your reasons, you are being tricked by their devious mafia ways. The better they are at wolfing, the more you should scumread them for it. Needless to say, being the master manipulators that they are, nothing is out of their scum range. No action, no matter how townie, is beyond their grasp. Did they singlehandedly kill half the mafia team? That is exactly what a skilled wolf would do. Having three red flips by day four is a tell-tale sign of strong wolf play. Did a flipped cop check them green? Perhaps they are the Godfather. It’s not like anyone’s going to bother checking the first page where the host confirms that investigations will not be falsified. And if they did, well, who’s to say this game isn’t bastard? The host could have lied."

Yes mastina, gogo, get that scummy frog. If I post a case it's because I'm bussing and know it will make me look good, if I don't post a case it's because I'm scum who hasn't thought about my reads. Excellent deductions.

viewtopic.php?p=13545293#p13545293

The above is a post from my scum game which just completed and is as good an example as any to how I actually write big cases as scum.

[Frogsterking]

OK, so, less confusing.

Furtive townreads Passenger, you say they might be right about them being town but might be a bit presumptive, then you post a list of people that were clear cuz I was town, including Passenger (I believe this is the team solve they were talking about). Then they ask basically why you said fugitive view is presumptive but they were in your town reads.

You had a whole case on me, why was this interaction more significant.

1) I have a whole case on Passenger as well I'm procrastinating posting which is even better than the one I had on you.

2) I think Dease is Town this game and is a very competent player so I'm willing to rethink my read on you.

3) If I work under the assumption that you and Kookaburra are Town, that means I would expect scum to be pushing a vanity wagon and not taking an active role in deciding whether Flavia or Kookaburra is the D1 lim. I looked through Passenger's ISO and saw that not only were their main two targets myself and Dease, they are currently pushing a nonsense scum read on me and interacted with both you and Kookaburra as though they already know you two are Town very early in the day.

[Frogsterking]

OK, so, less confusing.

Furtive townreads Passenger, you say they might be right about them being town but might be a bit presumptive, then you post a list of people that were clear cuz I was town, including Passenger (I believe this is the team solve they were talking about). Then they ask basically why you said fugitive view is presumptive but they were in your town reads.

You had a whole case on me, why was this interaction more significant.

1) I have a whole case on Passenger as well I'm procrastinating posting which is even better than the one I had on you.

2) I think Dease is Town this game and is a very competent player so I'm willing to rethink my read on you.

3) If I work under the assumption that you and Kookaburra are Town, that means I would expect scum to be pushing a vanity wagon and not taking an active role in deciding whether Flavia or Kookaburra is the D1 lim. I looked through Passenger's ISO and saw that not only were their main two targets myself and Dease, they are currently pushing a nonsense scum read on me and interacted with both you and Kookaburra as though they already know you two are Town very early in the day.

You are wrong about the solve Passenger was talking about by the way, they are reacting to a solve I posted earlier where I said they mightbe scum with you

If partner equity is going to become a theme, I'd like to propose Passenger has partner equity with N.Y.M and Flavia. When players are hyper accurate (like I

sometimes

am on D1) it can force scum to make scumtells they wouldn't ordinarily make (like chainsawing.) I can link to you at least one completed game where scum were forced to react this way to me. 135 looks... unnatural to me? It pings me in a way Passenger's posting hasn't done yet. I feel there can be an element of projection in it where Passenger accuses me of approaching other slots in bad faith while they themselves manufacture a case by misrepresenting my motivations.

I'll admit Koko was a part of my team solve I mentioned earlier, but now with more information (from their wagon piling on) I feel their reaction to pressure is more indicative of a Resident who is wrongly accused.

Also yes I may as well out my team solve is N.Y.M/Flavia/Passenger, it was previously N.Y.M/Flavia/Koko

.

My opinion is that there is an element of Price's Law at play, where Flavia and N.Y.M are abandoning thread control and Passenger feels motivated to take up the reigns as a more active scum poster.

I'll wait a little bit longer before I get into my ideas about hunting for the Dictator.

I also was clearly FoSing Passenger in my post addressed to furtive, just expressing some uncertainty about it.

Part of the reason I removed Passenger from my third team solve is because I don't think you and Passenger are aligned.

The fact that Passenger is still pushing me partlybecause I included them in an outdated team solve is very survivalistic and behavior I have seen as more likely to come from scum than Town.

[Frogsterking]

OK, so, less confusing.

Furtive townreads Passenger, you say they might be right about them being town but might be a bit presumptive, then you post a list of people that were clear cuz I was town, including Passenger (I believe this is the team solve they were talking about). Then they ask basically why you said fugitive view is presumptive but they were in your town reads.

You had a whole case on me, why was this interaction more significant.

1) I have a whole case on Passenger as well I'm procrastinating posting which is even better than the one I had on you.

2) I think Dease is Town this game and is a very competent player so I'm willing to rethink my read on you.

3) If I work under the assumption that you and Kookaburra are Town, that means I would expect scum to be pushing a vanity wagon and not taking an active role in deciding whether Flavia or Kookaburra is the D1 lim. I looked through Passenger's ISO and saw that not only were their main two targets myself and Dease, they are currently pushing a nonsense scum read on me and interacted with both you and Kookaburra as though they already know you two are Town very early in the day.

4) your defense in 213 is significantly better (in that it is more likely to come from Town) than Passenger's in 273 and 274

5) I value my case on Passenger more than you because of this timeline below:

#1 I out my initial team solve here

If partner equity is going to become a theme, I'd like to propose Passenger has partner equity with N.Y.M and Flavia. When players are hyper accurate (like I

sometimes

am on D1) it can force scum to make scumtells they wouldn't ordinarily make (like chainsawing.) I can link to you at least one completed game where scum were forced to react this way to me. 135 looks... unnatural to me? It pings me in a way Passenger's posting hasn't done yet. I feel there can be an element of projection in it where Passenger accuses me of approaching other slots in bad faith while they themselves manufacture a case by misrepresenting my motivations.

I'll admit Koko was a part of my team solve I mentioned earlier, but now with more information (from their wagon piling on) I feel their reaction to pressure is more indicative of a Resident who is wrongly accused.

Also yes I may as well out my team solve is N.Y.M/Flavia/Passenger, it was previously N.Y.M/Flavia/Koko.

My opinion is that there is an element of Price's Law at play, where Flavia and N.Y.M are abandoning thread control and Passenger feels motivated to take up the reigns as a more active scum poster.

I'll wait a little bit longer before I get into my ideas about hunting for the Dictator.

#2 I post a huge case, realizing in the process Passenger is unlikely to be aligned with Flavia.

Spoiler:

VOTE: Flavia

Hello everyone! I am here, ready to be a shining light against the delegation!

VOTE: DeasVail

VOTE: Star Power

I hate shining lights. Always being deceptive.

Shading a slot which seems likely to become unpopular. Projection.

Hello! To make up for all the votes in Frog’s post, I will not vote.

Letting him take over all the votes? Opposition politician role?

A useless question in an effort to appear solvey. Low key pocketing vibes toward Dease.

Hello everyone! I am here, ready to be a shining light against the delegation!

VOTE: DeasVail

JUST the delegation?

I am kind of thinking that StarPower appearing to not know that there is a 3rd party makes them more likely to be town.

Seriously doubt that the actual 3rd party would not be too self-conscious to frame it that way, so imo town>scum>3rd party

But mafia can't collaborate with the 3rd party in this game. Everybody losses. So, makes sense mafia would be as interested in this 3rd party as the town. Or not that interested yet as the game just started.

Insight into Flavia's point of view: they think a lot about scum win con and not much else.

I'm trying to make posts made so far AI in my head, but I'm not really coming up with much.

Must be scum out of ideas.

This is also what I thought. It seems like DeasVail is playing from the point of view of someone who is looking over posts with a checklist of tells to appear useful, rather than engaging in actual solving.

VOTE: DeasVail

Maybe but why them specifically over hmm...basically everyone else, excluding Bombay and maybe Bell. Rest of us weren't exactly overtly solving stuff.

PS: I'm taking frogsterking's readings on page 1 as a joke, not them being serious

Low key pocketing vibes toward Dease, pointlessly listing players in the game (seemingly...), TMI into the gamestate.

As for their comment about me:

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... 8.2B1.0.29
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... 8.2B1.0.29

Two scumtells in one. Discrediting a player who is aggressively solving as well as discrediting an argument against them by claiming it to be a joke. Empirically I can also say that no Town has ever reacted to me by assuming that I'm "joking" and on more than one occasion scum have pretended to interpret me to be "joking." Trolling, bizarre, weird, off-color, scum, "toxic" etc. are all responses I've recieved from Town, "joking" is not one of them. I can't provide direct evidence at this time as per site rules so you will have to take my word for it that to claim my first post was a joke is an example of an unnatural thought process which is likely to come from scum.

This feels like you misunderstood. My point was that the mafia would be

more

cognizant of the existence of the 3rd party, while StarPower's post reads like someone who was not thinking about the existence of a 3rd party.

Therefore, town being the most likely alignment to make such a post.

Not the basis for a strong read, but as far as page 1 posts go, it is nice to have an inkling on someone

~Luke

OK, I see where you come from.

The difference between DeasVail and the people who have been posting but not DeasVail is two things.

1. The fact that DeasVail posted about his inability to solve. This shows that DeasVail is scum concerned whether people believe he is solving or not. Statistically this has proven to be a weak but >rand tell.

2. The content of his post. He says that he’s trying to make posts AI in his head, but can’t. Scum when out of ideas tries to do exactly that: look at posts and see if they follow a list of common tells, rather than organically notice a post and realize that it follows a tell, which town does. I suppose the gist of what I’m saying is that DeasVail is scum trying to find reads by creating thought processes, meanwhile town finds reads not by creating thought processes but by simply having those thought processes.

OK, did post 74 change your read?

Ah, psychoanalysis...not my favorite but what can you do?

Low key pocketing vibes toward Bombay as well as Passenger and more shading the scary Resident who is trying to solve the game. Very useless question directed toward Passenger about 74, remember "a question a day keeps the tracker away." https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... 8.2B0.5.29

If you don't believe me, keep reading this post and tell me how much you think Flavia thought about the answer to their question about 74.

Well, might seem so but ignoring isn't the best word to use. Reserving judgement till I can come to a conclusion.

You think so? Thing is Bell made one statement about DeasVail being scum out of ideas. Passenger asks a question about what means to make AI posts in their head. Next post, votes expanding on Bell's reasoning. I'm actually interested how things...change. If they do.

See no reason to lie about you liking psychoanalysis. I mean, lots of people do. Just not my liking...all those associations. Never believed in them

Taking a reserved and cautious approach is a scum tell for most players. Quibbling over semantics is scummy. Summarizing what happened in the game (and reminding us that there are other players in the game by listing their names again) without any attempt to parse for alignment information is scummy. The bit at the end about psychoanalysis is pointless jabber which seems pockety toward anyone willing to listen.

On page 5? Sorry, I'm not clairvoyant, mafia or really a good player. You'll get what I can think of now:

The Bombay: liked post 44, though I can really say I agree with that logics. Seems solvey. Maybe, maybe town.
Oh, I think the whole vote stuff about that vote is just playing Freud. Starting a random wagon might not be very efficient but it seems as much as I've read on this site to be a very used tactic.

Kokabiel: post 47- hmm, maybe they believe they've seen something but the way I see "a cigar is just a cigar". Don't get what scum-DeasVale would get from asking to join a vote that as far as I can tell is pretty much random. Basically, they either are trying to solve but I am not getting the logic or trying to find a reason to vote someone. Not sure yet.

Andresvmp- Post 94 has some logic. Granted, pretty non-committed but it was was page 3 or 4.

Furtiveglance- person who claimed miller. Suppose for the moment we can't disbelieve this claim.

DeasVail- so, I guess he tries to find town. Which is logical. No idea why you'd have a list so early. You might be contagious.

You- post 11. Reason I took it as a joke is that well, IMHO, anyone who can say who is mafia/town based on 1 post is either mafia or should work for FBI. Post 66- you really think two experienced mafia players couldn't make that interaction? Other than intuition why it couldn't be SvS? Post 87 is logical question, though didn't see Johnny post any reason to be suspicious of DeasVail? rest is mostly you knowing the whole mafia team is stuff and being overly assertive.

Passenger- told you why I found some posts...worrying.

The rest are the rest. No real idea.

My alleged "psychoanalysis" indicates Flavia is the type of player who doesn't feel confident in faking SvS interactions or making up reads on scum buddies. I think almost all of the above are Town, if not all. I also don't think Flavia has interacted with their partners very much if at all. My "pychoanalysis" extends deeper however; Flavia

feels isolated

and Flavia

is the most active groupscum.

Also, if you want to know what a Town response looks like, try this:

Softclaim present.

VOTE: johnny

Hello everyone! I am here, ready to be a shining light against the delegation!

VOTE: DeasVail

I'm gonna need coffee.

Time's up, Herta. I need you to stop thread flaking and write a reads list now.

Rude.

Marci is town.

or sometimes this:

I'm waiting to hear more from you about your own reads, Rad.

Sure. I'm leaning town on a few people. Off The Hook. PenguinPower. Pooky. Nothing specific about them, just some early vibes that I don't weigh too heavily but they are there.

Lean scum on The toad. I think 156 is reading too deeply into my question. I could only come up with 2 good explanations as noted in 167, and I'm leaning towards the scum read.

No other real reads atm. I think Lukewarm has given enough good content to come to a reasonable early read, which I might go do now. Most people are still joking around so it's hard to tell what's what yet. Also this is such a huge game I don't even know how to approach it. I think the wagon on Ceph was interesting but not sure what I can get out of it yet.

I'd stake my life on the fact that #115 from Flavia is horseshit which was improvised on the spot.

Random or serious?

"A question a day keeps the tracker away." Remember to continue reading for Flavia's follow up to their questions in 103 and 133.

This doesn’t make sense, because Marci’s vote was clearly RVS. From this incorrect premise Kokabiel comes to the logical conclusion that Frogster is town and DeasVail is scum. Her assumption that Marci is scum for her naked vote is an NAI overreaction.

Do you agree with that logic or are you saying is making sense based on Kokabiel logic. Cuz I'm not seeing it.


Also, the miller claim. Never played with one. But from what I've read, it's basically a claim that's usually treated as "consider it true for the moment cuz we can't really disprove it". That's why I don't see much in Bell's reaction- said that it could be totally true, but could come from either town or mafia who played with a miller.

"A question a day keeps the tracker away." Now we have a question in 160 to stay mindful for the follow up as well. Here they go bringing up Bell again. Why? Why do they keep reminding us Bell exists in the game? Do they think his posts can be viewed as scummy and they're hoping we will all suddenly notice and miselim him?

If partner equity is going to become a theme, I'd like to propose Passenger has partner equity with N.Y.M and Flavia. When players are hyper accurate (like I

sometimes

am on D1) it can force scum to make scumtells they wouldn't ordinarily make (like chainsawing.) I can link to you at least one completed game where scum were forced to react this way to me. 135 looks... unnatural to me? It pings me in a way Passenger's posting hasn't done yet. I feel there can be an element of projection in it where Passenger accuses me of approaching other slots in bad faith while they themselves manufacture a case by misrepresenting my motivations.

I'll admit Koko was a part of my team solve I mentioned earlier, but now with more information (from their wagon piling on) I feel their reaction to pressure is more indicative of a Resident who is wrongly accused.

Also yes I may as well out my team solve is N.Y.M/Flavia/Passenger, it was previously N.Y.M/Flavia/Koko.

My opinion is that there is an element of Price's Law at play, where Flavia and N.Y.M are abandoning thread control and Passenger feels motivated to take up the reigns as a more active scum poster.

I'll wait a little bit longer before I get into my ideas about hunting for the Dictator.

If it becomes a theme- maybe I should figure it out what this partner equity is.

And you've figured it out I'm mafia all the while back. Your confidence is impressive...though very wrong. But I'm really curious...how did NYM got into that team. And when did we abandon threat control when I posted very little and NYM posted- exactly once.

Low key pocketing vibes toward me, mistaking me for a mere frog who will flip their read because I got a little attention (I am not a frog, I am both a frogster and a king.) Playing dumb pretending not to understand the concept partner equity refers to even though it's immediately obvious that it refers to associative tells is an example of a unnatural thought process which is more likely from scum.

I have some empirical evidence 162 is more likely to come from scum which I can share as per site rules but I am getting burnt out so I will save the rest of my analysis of this post, the one below and my conclusion for another time.

It makes it feel like she wanted to make a comment on *something*
~Luke

That part might be true. I try to talk more.

Maybe, but it was an observation related to my question to furtive.

Current discussion? Well, I am here: Kokabiel is convinced asking for votes on them is scum. Plus the whole inviting vs invited being a sign of town/mafia. Nope, don't agree with this logic but I don't think mafia would be so willing to put it all on that hill.

Frog- they made it clear they scumread me from the beginning. I was sincerely curious how they came to the conclusion the team is me/Passenger and the person who posted once.

#3 I clarify here:

So you can continue to wrongly push me and look stupid doing so, up to you. I can’t bus anyone because I’m town and if you knew a damn thing about my meta, you would know that I don’t have sr’s straight out of the gate in most cases.

I’m taking my fucking time because we have a post cap of only 125 posts with 3 heads. I had 250 in Happy Face and almost had 200 posts in under two rl days.

I will look at your Flavia case but going out of your way to piss me off when you’re apparently being pretty dense here because I once again repeat: I don’t make stuff like that up. Btw, I did check our discord and Mastina should be on tomorrow.

I already know you aren't group scum because of Flavia spew. The problem is you can still be Dictator. These players all get the Flavia-cleared groupscum stamp of approval:


Kokabiel
Dease,
Passenger,
N.Y.M
Bombay
Bell
Myself

This leads me to believe andres is scum with Flavia because:

1) this comment

Andresvmp- Post 94 has some logic. Granted, pretty non-committed but it was was page 3 or 4.

2) I have played with andres as both alignments and skipping a night after promising to be back is a red flag from andres

Anyway, I’m going to sleep. I’m back tomorrow.

3) andres matches the profile of a lurker slot leaving Flavia to feel isolated in her scum game.

So my current solve for group scum is Flavia/andres and one more player who both has less than eleven posts and isn't excluded in the list above. The players who meet both of these criteria are:

Herta
Furtive
Penguin
Starpower

Now if I sheep Nancy and Bell's Townread on Furtive, I assume Flavia isn't aligned with Star because of their first post, and I give some lenience to Herta because they clapped back at me in a Townie way when I demanded reads from them, that leaves me with this team solve:

Flavia/andres/Penguin

#4 Passenger, who is playing reactively and survivalistically, is concerned only with the fact their name appeared in a team solve all the way back at point #1

I townread Passenger

Congrats, you have now ensured your survival to endgame.

(I'm half-joking, you may be right for all I know, it feels a little presumptive to me though)

Let me get this straight. furtive’s townread on me is presumptive, but your team solve with me in it is not presumptive?

You aren't in my team solve. *snap snap* sharpen up.

I was definitely in your team solve when you made that post.

The above is a scumtell.

[Frogsterking]

my stance there shifted and was ultimately irrelevant given you died shortly after me anyway.

...my player slot was combined with Titus and turned into a mod-given Hydra called "Legends" who proceeded to eliminate scum D1 and absorb 4 consecutive dayvig shots from the scum team. If you are telling the truth and this was a banal series of events to you--DOUBT--then sign me up for whatever games you have been playing please.

[Frogsterking]

And you pivoted away from the Flavia case you wrote.

Why shouldn't I, with my suspicion of Flavia, think that you writing a good case on Flavia and then discarding it when Flavia is gaining momentum to push elsewhere, is you distancing Flavia but avoiding committing to the hard bus?

Because that's the dumbest scum play I've ever heard and makes no sense whatsoever from an Informed perspective?

[Frogsterking]

And you pivoted away from the Flavia case you wrote.

Why shouldn't I, with my suspicion of Flavia, think that you writing a good case on Flavia and then discarding it when Flavia is gaining momentum to push elsewhere, is you distancing Flavia but avoiding committing to the hard bus?

Because that's the dumbest scum play I've ever heard and makes no sense whatsoever from an Informed perspective?

Flavia was the largest wagon at 4 votes when I decided to push Passenger and Kookaburra hadn't even joined yet. This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard

I think the N.Y.M slot is probably scum here

Well played mastina, you had me going for a second after I read your first post.

[Frogsterking]

You DO look like scum distancing.

Hey all. It’s good to be here. I’ll do a quick read, catch up, and put a preliminary vote down. Once I’ve done that, I’ll go to sleep. Expect more from me tomorrow.

VOTE: Bombay

VOTE: Passenger

^I didn’t mean to quote that post. It’s irrelevant to the vote.

59 is over-explainy. Which is the only reason I’m putting this vote down. I’m not buying Scum enters the thread and basically says I can’t find ways to contribute. I would probably spam or act silly before I admit that I am not actively contributing to solving. That’s my perspective so obviously won’t apply across the board. But that’s all I got. So I think Passenger is trying to justify a vote with too many words when there’s no way you can make that long a case about anyone.

Anyway, I’m going to sleep. I’m back tomorrow.

K

[Frogsterking]

I don't believe that

1) mastina is pushing me because they actually think I'm distancing from Flavia.
2) the TfT game is so forgettable they can barely remember it.
3) 302 is a Town post. It seems to be written mostly about things unrelated to the game in a way that scum do when they aren't sure what to say.

I think it's more likely that the scum team is something like N.Y.M/Passenger/andres and I've scared them sufficiently enough by including their names in my solves that they feel compelled to attack my slot.

@andres

if I'm wrongly accusing you again I'm sorry but if you look at your ISO you can see why I would be suspicious that you're distancing from Passenger.

[Frogsterking]

You're not the only one who can link to mafia theory, mate. Take a look at here and see how many of those I wrote.
And how many I wrote on townplay.

"Biasing Yourself
There is basically no situation where you are doing yourself a favor by arbitrarily assuming something must be true, because of whatever factor. This player must be town because that player is totally scum. This player must be scum because they are the only unflipped player on that wagon. Things like this, you want to avoid. You cannot make progress if you are discarding evidence to fit a preexisting presumption.


You can make notes: “this fight doesn’t seem town-town” would conflict with “I am townreading both participants”, sure enough. But how do you know which is the right conclusion? You cannot out-of-hand arbitrarily assume one is correct and immediately throw out the other. So instead of blindly forcing these conclusions, reason it out and find which is more likely to be true. Resolve conflicting data by looking closer at both sides, not by looking at only one side."

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... g_Yourself

Gotcha. Very believable scum play. Psh

[Frogsterking]

You're not the only one who can link to mafia theory, mate. Take a look at here and see how many of those I wrote.
And how many I wrote on townplay.

"Biasing Yourself
There is basically no situation where you are doing yourself a favor by arbitrarily assuming something must be true, because of whatever factor. This player must be town because that player is totally scum. This player must be scum because they are the only unflipped player on that wagon. Things like this, you want to avoid. You cannot make progress if you are discarding evidence to fit a preexisting presumption.


You can make notes: “this fight doesn’t seem town-town” would conflict with “I am townreading both participants”, sure enough. But how do you know which is the right conclusion? You cannot out-of-hand arbitrarily assume one is correct and immediately throw out the other. So instead of blindly forcing these conclusions, reason it out and find which is more likely to be true. Resolve conflicting data by looking closer at both sides, not by looking at only one side."

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... g_Yourself

Gotcha. Very believable scum play. Psh

Continuing on:
I realize that Frogsterking actually does vote Flavia here, with a case no less, but tbh, it kinda feels like a bus tone-wise. It feels like Frogsterking is using logic he knows is good to make a push he knows is good, but that he isn't actually invested in the push because he is making it to be performative.

I'll admit I could be wrong, he could be town casing scum, or scum making a hollow push on town.

But gutwise he looks like scum distancing.

Objectively, why shouldn't I think your Flavia push was distancing?

You literally wrote up a case for why Flavia is scum, and abandoned the case to chase after Passenger instead.

You're not the only one who can link to mafia theory, mate. Take a look at here and see how many of those I wrote.
And how many I wrote on townplay.

"Biasing Yourself
There is basically no situation where you are doing yourself a favor by arbitrarily assuming something must be true, because of whatever factor. This player must be town because that player is totally scum. This player must be scum because they are the only unflipped player on that wagon. Things like this, you want to avoid. You cannot make progress if you are discarding evidence to fit a preexisting presumption.


You can make notes: “this fight doesn’t seem town-town” would conflict with “I am townreading both participants”, sure enough. But how do you know which is the right conclusion? You cannot out-of-hand arbitrarily assume one is correct and immediately throw out the other. So instead of blindly forcing these conclusions, reason it out and find which is more likely to be true. Resolve conflicting data by looking closer at both sides, not by looking at only one side."

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... g_Yourself

Gotcha. Very believable scum play. Psh

Continuing on:
I realize that Frogsterking actually does vote Flavia here, with a case no less, but tbh, it kinda feels like a bus tone-wise. It feels like Frogsterking is using logic he knows is good to make a push he knows is good, but that he isn't actually invested in the push because he is making it to be performative.

I'll admit I could be wrong, he could be town casing scum, or scum making a hollow push on town.

But gutwise he looks like scum distancing.

Objectively, why shouldn't I think your Flavia push was distancing?

You literally wrote up a case for why Flavia is scum, and abandoned the case to chase after Passenger instead.

You're not the only one who can link to mafia theory, mate. Take a look at here and see how many of those I wrote.
And how many I wrote on townplay.

"Biasing Yourself
There is basically no situation where you are doing yourself a favor by arbitrarily assuming something must be true, because of whatever factor. This player must be town because that player is totally scum. This player must be scum because they are the only unflipped player on that wagon. Things like this, you want to avoid. You cannot make progress if you are discarding evidence to fit a preexisting presumption.


You can make notes: “this fight doesn’t seem town-town” would conflict with “I am townreading both participants”, sure enough. But how do you know which is the right conclusion? You cannot out-of-hand arbitrarily assume one is correct and immediately throw out the other. So instead of blindly forcing these conclusions, reason it out and find which is more likely to be true. Resolve conflicting data by looking closer at both sides, not by looking at only one side."

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... g_Yourself

Gotcha. Very believable scum play. Psh

Continuing on:
I realize that Frogsterking actually does vote Flavia here, with a case no less, but tbh, it kinda feels like a bus tone-wise. It feels like Frogsterking is using logic he knows is good to make a push he knows is good, but that he isn't actually invested in the push because he is making it to be performative.

I'll admit I could be wrong, he could be town casing scum, or scum making a hollow push on town.

But gutwise he looks like scum distancing.

Objectively, why shouldn't I think your Flavia push was distancing?

You literally wrote up a case for why Flavia is scum, and abandoned the case to chase after Passenger instead.

You're not the only one who can link to mafia theory, mate. Take a look at here and see how many of those I wrote.
And how many I wrote on townplay.

"Biasing Yourself
There is basically no situation where you are doing yourself a favor by arbitrarily assuming something must be true, because of whatever factor. This player must be town because that player is totally scum. This player must be scum because they are the only unflipped player on that wagon. Things like this, you want to avoid. You cannot make progress if you are discarding evidence to fit a preexisting presumption.


You can make notes: “this fight doesn’t seem town-town” would conflict with “I am townreading both participants”, sure enough. But how do you know which is the right conclusion? You cannot out-of-hand arbitrarily assume one is correct and immediately throw out the other. So instead of blindly forcing these conclusions, reason it out and find which is more likely to be true. Resolve conflicting data by looking closer at both sides, not by looking at only one side."

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... g_Yourself

Gotcha. Very believable scum play. Psh

Continuing on:
I realize that Frogsterking actually does vote Flavia here, with a case no less, but tbh, it kinda feels like a bus tone-wise. It feels like Frogsterking is using logic he knows is good to make a push he knows is good, but that he isn't actually invested in the push because he is making it to be performative.

I'll admit I could be wrong, he could be town casing scum, or scum making a hollow push on town.

But gutwise he looks like scum distancing.

Objectively, why shouldn't I think your Flavia push was distancing?

You literally wrote up a case for why Flavia is scum, and abandoned the case to chase after Passenger instead.

[Frogsterking]

@mastina

I was white-knighting Kokabiel and Flavia… but you also said earlier

Nah my read trajectory on you makes sense, re-evaluating is Townie and being too consistent is a scum tell. My read changed on you because I'm uninformed so it takes me longer than you to figure out what's going on. Like I said, this is really vanilla BnB scum whining your putting out, I need something spicier if I'm expected to pay attention to your complaints.

In the case the irony in 312 is lost on you.

[Frogsterking]

@everyone

@Kookaburra I'm not as confident in my read on you as the other two, fwiw #110 at least is more likely to come from a Resident. I'll let others decide if our interactions look TvT or not.

Same thing now with N.Y.M. If it looks like a TvT thunderdome then intervene.

[Frogsterking]

Speaking personally I've opened this thread like 4 times today and had a "not my monkeys, not my circus" moment, which is bad because this kind of IS my circus, you know?

But y'all are making it hard to engage

I'm going to have to stop posting so much anyway because of the cap. At least I am trying. Complaining while not doing much, which you are doing, doesn't really help anything. Are you saying it's more likely that mastina and I are ignorant townies butting into each other? Or are you just complaining?

[Frogsterking]

I haven't read enough to say one way or the other. I'm just complainin'

Okay well my activity will be condensed down into a few posts a day going forward so it should be easier for you to engage.

I love that part in Hercules where some of the hydra heads just fuck off and get lattés

I thought this was funny by the way.

[Frogsterking]

But why move off of Flavia? After Mastina just endorsed your vote?

They just said why, because his vote on me was fucking terrible and all but spews me Town off a scum flip. I didn't even realize that he worded it the way he did, I was focused on how he implied Flavia and Kookaburra are Town by the way he interacted with them. Passenger's push on Dease was terrible as well which Andres had a good argument about regarding 59 (I'm hoping andres sticks with this and his absence is NAI. I'm paranoid his push actually might be distancing.)

Mastina just wrote a wall basically saying "it's in my Town meta now to tunnel Town into the ground and I wrote lots of articles explaining why this is a bad idea, but get ready for it anyway because xyz" and your response is to follow this player's reads?

I quoted how their play is the equivalent to that described in my favorite guide "How to throw games", and they responded by acknowledging that yes that is how they play as Town, and yeah they just finished pissing people off by doing just that. It's possible the section I quoted was too light to describe their approach. Here is a different section from "How to throw games" which more accurately captures the zeal of their current approach:

"Vigilantes and ITAs
Vigilantes/ITAs are a gold mine for gamethrowers, as they’re the easiest way to make a high-impact misplay that you cannot be held accountable for. Some vigilantes give off the impression of being loose cannons that somehow got their hands on a gun. You must go even further beyond. The town should start thinking of you as a psychopathic terrorist who indiscriminately murders innocent people to spread their agenda of fear and despair."

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Alison%29

Mastina is like a psychopathic terrorist sent here to terrorize the Residents of our Community, however, mastina isn't armed with a gun (at least I hope not), their weapon is their keyboard.

Much worse, they have no remorse for playing this way:

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals."

-

CS Lewis

IMO if you're Town Herta we could use your help in these dark times. You were contributing quite a bit on the Passenger wagon because the hardest part about voting out scum D1 is often getting the numbers to do so.

Andres (94) Nancy (321) and I (299, 301) have all given very cogent reasons why we are currently pushing Passenger. I can empathize with the players voting Flavia because obviously I read them as extremely scummy by tone (189) but like mastina said in her guide I quoted, it's important not to throw out evidence in favor of a single factor (311.)



NYM's secret: they're probably Town.

I think mastina's play is frustrating but the following are more likely to come from Town IMO:

I do learn! But I don't have eidetic memory. Simply put, I haven't played with you enough to have a good foundation for you. A single, minor, past mistake that was mostly not notable in part for how shortly it lasted, ain't gonna magically make me able to know you.

Reminds of Dease' response earlier this game to a similar line of questioning (173). I don't like what followed in 302 but I guess the fervor could indicate authenticity?

Town (most to least): The Bombay, Frogsterking, Passenger, DeasVail, JohnnyFarrar, Herta, Flavia, PenguinPower

Therefore a POE of 5:
Andres - done nothing really
Bell - feels a bit sus like I said earlier
Kokabiel - I don't really like 218, seems to have scum mindset on the brain talking about me 'pocketing' The Bombay and then goes and says 'I really like Passenger because he is always engaging and is thinking about stuff from multiple angles' but yeah hmm
NYM - done nothing, don't like the vote on Flavia which was unexplained. I think Flavia seems quite natural so far.
Star Power - done nothing. I don't really think their opening was scummy but just lack of posting so in the poe.

You’ve probably got two reads wrong there: us and I think Bell. I think Flavia wagon is pure. I thought you were better at reading me. Maybe you should maybe reread Trees again. I think the similarities should eventually become overwhelmingly obvious to you. Anyway, I agree with you on 218 so might switch my vote to that.

And it’s kind of ridiculous to call my vote here “naked”. A) it’s a post cap game and B) I told Frogs I would look at his case and found it pretty compelling but I’m starting to lean to maybe Kokabiel being scummier. I don’t understand why they are so over the top defensive in pretty much every single post.

I’m also liking Bombay. Luke sounds similar here to LOST I think.

~Nancy

Reminds of Town!Nancy.

It's a Moonlight dancer with an additional on-death trigger, and no it's sadly not a vengeful.
I claimed and gave out my reads so there is no info you can get from me apart from the flip. So y'all useless lazy town without any reads better start working. 4 Days remaining, you can always come back to finish the job.

I’m leaning to probably town on this. Btw Frogs, if you’re going to continue wrongly push us, I sadly won’t be able to trust the rest of your reads, so smarten tf up if you want our help.

I haven’t yet caught up since yesterday so I will review and @furtive not naked vote, though it may appear that way due to the stupid post count thing.

We are a hydra and our reads aren’t all in agreement. I told Mastina in our discord that you were one of my top townreads but if enough time passes and you don’t realize we’re town when you read me correctly in LOST, Elected Decisions and eventually in Masque, I may possibly lose confidence in that.

It’s maybe a weakness in my solve but when slots that claim to be good at scumhunting and I know you can be continue to wrongly read me, I ultimately lose faith in their solve. Do better.

~Awsome obvtown Nancy

Reminds of Town!Nancy.

Mastina wants to vote Frogs and I definitely disagree with that. I don’t really have enough of a read on Johnny yet to pursue that one way or the other.

I don't think the slots absence at the start of the game is an act and I don't think their hydra dissonance toward me is an act either. I'll admit I'm paranoid about the slot playing a clever good cop/bad cop routine toward me but it just seems like a lot of work when they could probably pocket me easier by playing hardball and then pretending to decide I'm obvtown.

[Frogsterking]

Reminds of Town!Nancy.

I realize this explanation is a cop out so in honor of TBone's disdain toward meta reads, in my upcoming wallpost (maybe in about 32 hours from now) I'll try to include a section on

why

I think these two posts I quoted are more likely to come from Town!Nancy.

[Frogsterking]

Frog: "this [Passenger] is the mafia vote them D1 please"
Town: "neah neah" *kills self*
Frog:

[Frogsterking]

I'm going to become a hermit frog and move out of this Community into the nearby mountains so I don't have to suffer the consequences of your inability to vote out the Delegates.

[Frogsterking]

I am finding Frogs and Mastinas posts to be unreadable, and I am just kind of skimming past them. Anyone else find something of note int here feel free to quote and @ me with it lol

~Luke

Tld;dr If you aren't voting Passenger yet it's a skill issue and N.Y.M and I now townread each other. There ya go. I'll post another wallpost tomorrow which is non-N.Y.M related and required reading.

[Frogsterking]

Teaser: my wallpost tomorrow contains advice that no protectives visit me tonight. Skim my posts at your own peril.

[Frogsterking]

Teaser: my wallpost I'm planning to write Sunday morning contains advice that no protectives visit me N1. Skim my posts at your own peril.

Eh I realized it was confusing the way I worded it so EBWOP

[Frogsterking]

Hey Roden talk to me.

[Frogsterking]

Ok. Only 30 posts left, better make them count.

You know I can do a lot of damage with far less than 30 posts.

Your ISO and reads list are dodgy as hell. You look exactly like you did in Elected Decisions D1 where you were scum and not really at all like you did D1 in Lost or CK9++ where you were Town. You claim to scumread Passenger and Townread me but most of your ISO looks motivated to shade my slot and cause the Kookaburra wagon to go through instead of the Passenger wagon.

I don't have any questions for you, I'm just giving you a open-prompt time window of 30 minutes where you can attempt to convince me you aren't aligned with Passenger. If you fail it's Passenger/Roden/? for the rest of the game because your ISO really is that bad already.

[Frogsterking]

Tick tock Roden, you have until 12:50 AM my time to write anything resembling a Townie post who actually scumreads both Kookaburra and Passenger. So far you...have not written anything which looks genuine and I especially don't believe that you actually are Town who Townreads me or scumreads Passenger, because your ISO indicates you are scum shading my slot and pushing the Kookaburra wagon as a counter to Passenger.

Tick tock Roden. At 12:50 AM you will be forced to NK me because it's Passenger/Roden/? for the rest of the game unless you can pull some Town!Roden posts out of your ass.

Tick tock.

I know you're online and reading this Roden and you have a tendency to get scum frozen. You're very smart but a terrible actor. Convince me your reads in your reads list are genuine because they really don't match your ISO. Tick tock...

[Frogsterking]

Telling you to share oxygen with the rest of the player list instead of hoarding it all for yourself isn't really shade.

I want Koka to go through because I scum read them. Passenger is fine too, I just scum read Koka more.

Considering I've been in the game for less then 24 hours, I think my ISO is pretty good.

Your turn.

PE: You really shouldn't waste your posts just to puff out your chest like that.

I already said shading your Townreads like you replaced into a scum slot doesn't make you look Townie. It took you several minutes to write #432 and line by line you:

Shaded your "Townread" (who is pushing your "scumread" Passenger.)

Made an awful excuse for why you are actively attempting to derail one of your scumread wagons in favor of the other.

Shaded your "Townread" again who is pushing Passenger etc.

Shaded your "Townread" again who is pushing Passenger etc.

Nope, your time is running out faster than my posts and I don't think you really believe in these reads (or you can even write convincing scum posts apparently) :

Off the cuff reads in no particular order:

TOWN
Bell
Bombay
DV
Furtive
Johnny
Frog
Herta

NULL
NYM
Penguin
Flavia

DIDN'T REALIZE THEY WERE IN THIS GAME
Andres

SCUM
Koka
Passenger

[Frogsterking]

I have demonstated a very high level of ability to read Roden correctly in Elected Decisions, Lost, and CK9++. This game, Roden replaced into a scum slot who star-flaked out and I will accordingly be emergency-updating my readslist tonight

before

I claim tomorrow in my wallpost.

Roden is very prone to freezing as scum and if you are curious where Roden disappeared to just now while I was questioning him, for your entertainment I have copy+pasted Roden's scum chat here from Elected Decisions when I caught him on page 1:

Frog is annoying, he's legit just lying

Gotta do my best not to give out "caught for the wrong reason" vibes

I know this'll just pass because Frog literally makes no sense and no one's just gonna agree to quick hammering 24 hours into the game for no reason

But wow

If the players on the Kookaburra wagon could pull their heads out of their ass for two seconds and vote Passenger, that would be lovely.

[Frogsterking]

You're very smart but a terrible actor.

Thanks, it's the neurodivergency.

I'm sorry to say that's actually not it (I don't think) it's your tone and unwillingness to learn from your mistakes.

Telling you to share oxygen with the rest of the player list instead of hoarding it all for yourself isn't really shade.

I want Koka to go through because I scum read them. Passenger is fine too, I just scum read Koka more.

Considering I've been in the game for less then 24 hours, I think my ISO is pretty good.

Your turn.

PE: You really shouldn't waste your posts just to puff out your chest like that.

Telling you to share oxygen with the rest of the player list instead of hoarding it all for yourself isn't really shade.

I want Koka to go through because I scum read them. Passenger is fine too, I just scum read Koka more.

Considering I've been in the game for less then 24 hours, I think my ISO is pretty good.

Your turn.

PE: You really shouldn't waste your posts just to puff out your chest like that.

I already said shading your Townreads like you replaced into a scum slot doesn't make you look Townie. It took you several minutes to write #432 and line by line you:

Shaded your "Townread" (who is pushing your "scumread" Passenger.)

Made an awful excuse for why you are actively attempting to derail one of your scumread wagons in favor of the other.

Shaded your "Townread" again who is pushing Passenger etc

.
Fake scum bravado

Shaded your "Townread" again who is pushing Passenger etc.

Roden actually wasn't shading me in the third line of #432, his third line of #432 was "Fake scum bravado".

I'm not shading you, you're just egotistical and sensitive to criticism.

Ironically you're projecting onto me and it's your condescending tone which makes it so easy for me to read you as scum. Go back to your scum PT and complain about how I "caught you for the wrong reasons" again.

[Frogsterking]

Why would Koka be cleared from a red Passenger flip?

The Passenger wagon is composed of 3 town, whereas Bell and PenguinPower are both potential scum on Kokabiel

Dude.

You deserve getting called out for being on the Kookaburra wagon instead of Passenger.

You already mentioned in this game you can sort for condescending tone:

I can't tell if Kokabiel is classic spiteful town or classic condescending scum pretending to be spiteful.

So if you don't understand my Roden read (and realize that he is pushing Kookaburra as a counterwagon to Passenger) then I'm going to BoP you by adding you to my team solve which currently consists of Passenger/Roden/?

Especially with your low activity levels and already trying to tinfoil my slot earlier in this game:

This is an interesting frogster. Not sure if power woof. Attempt.
I dunno if frogster scum is any good.

*tilts head* tbh I’m surprised more people aren’t voting me, I say completely oblivious that I haven’t played with half the game before. Therefore they don’t know that my activity is kind of a blaring red sign that I’m scum here.

Not to mention your weak rationale for being on the Flavia and Kookaburra wagons respectively:

VOTE: Flavia

Seems like a fun wagon.

I can't tell if Kokabiel is classic spiteful town or classic condescending scum pretending to be spiteful.

VOTE: Kokabiel
I will miss them and their surly attitude.

I feel like regardless of your alignment, Bell, it's in your best interest to switch to Passenger lest you face the horrors of a Frog pushing a D1 Passenger/Roden/Bell team solve. It's borderline gamethrowing if you're scum and

don't

switch to Passenger because how will your team survive if you are all connected by associatives D1?

[Frogsterking]

@Frogsterking, I’ll give you an example of what I think is a Scum tell, and you tell me what you think.

There’s no immediate reason for me to think they react like I would, but I tend to approach SRs against me as Scum in the same way - in a conciliatory way.

I'll tell you

exactly

what I'm thinking

right now

:

Why would Koka be cleared from a red Passenger flip?

The Passenger wagon is composed of 3 town, whereas Bell and PenguinPower are both potential scum on Kokabiel

Dude.

I have demonstated a very high level of ability to read Roden correctly in Elected Decisions, Lost, and CK9++. This game, Roden replaced into a scum slot who star-flaked out and I will accordingly be emergency-updating my readslist tonight before I claim tomorrow in my wallpost.

I really can't imagine Frogster being scum this game.

I feel like regardless of your alignment, Bell, it's in your best interest to switch to Passenger lest you face the horrors of a Frog pushing a D1 Passenger/Roden/Bell team solve.

I'm too confused to respond to your post.

[Frogsterking]

@Nancy

be careful!

Flavor Leaf tricked me with a tactic like this once before.

Roden is making himself obvious for a reason; scum don't play the way Roden is doing unless they are big gamblers (which Roden isn't) or their team is coming under way too much pressure. Roden doesn't need to character assassinate me or bait me into wasting posts

unless

he needs to try and save Passenger by dissolving our Townblock we are building on him:

Notice how Roden is also trying to put the moves on Bombay (335,340, 350) and trick furtive into changing wagons (420, 427). Roden is smart and wants you and I to get distracted and angry and switch our votes onto him so that the Passenger wagon decreases in size. Once there are less Town voting Passenger then it will be easier for scum to push the Kookaburra wagon through EoD.

Specifically, I think furtive is correct in this analysis and this is the primary obstacle Roden is attempting to address with his play:

Why would Koka be cleared from a red Passenger flip?

The Passenger wagon is composed of 3 town, whereas Bell and PenguinPower are both potential scum on Kokabiel

If you start trying to chasing Roden too early then it will dissolve our Townblock we're currently building on Passenger. We want the Passenger wagon to go through today to expose the players trying to push Kookaburra through instead (I think specifically Bell and Roden are trying to take advantage of Penguin and Dease' votes on Kookaburra.)

I think it's imperative that you:

1) revote Passenger
2) concentrate your slots remaining posts (which you still have many) into persuading Dease, Penguin, Herta and Bombay into voting Passenger instead of Roden or especially Kookaburra.

@all

The Kookaburra doesn't even make sense because

Kookaburra can't be the Dictator

. You are all assuming that Kookaburra is a scum sided Moonlight Dancer when it's more likely they are a townsided Moonlight Dancer who is pissed at you because

you are voting Kookaburra for literally no reason. They are not that scummy and they can't be Dictator.

[Frogsterking]

I mean okay fine, let's try and figure out what Penguin and Dease are thinking.

putting self in Penguin/Dease shoes

A Moonlight Dancer is a player who can have the fact that they are a Moonlight Dancer mod-confirmed.

A Moonlight Dancer may be of any alignment

Advocate
A person who publicly supports or recommends a particular cause or policy.
"he was an untiring advocate of economic reform"

Hello everyone! I am here, ready to be a shining light against the delegation!

VOTE: DeasVail

JUST the delegation?

Setup

General Information

• This is a Large Theme themed around a group of militants and a government operative.
  
• The
  Residents
  are the uninformed majority and the
  Delegation
  is the informed minority.
  
• There is a
  Government
  operative who is
  Antisocial
  . If they win, all other players will lose.
  
• The setup does not meet
  Normal Guidelines
  but has no
  Bastard
  elements.
  
• Multitasking
  and
  Daytalk
  is enabled by default.

Probably this?

You guys think the Advocate thing is a red herring and Kookaburra can be or is likely to be the Dictator or w.e?

Okay fine I was wrong to dismiss your read about Kookaburra and claim they are not able to be the Dictator.

I

can

see it AND they sure as hell aren't groupscum. The groupscum are at least Passenger/Roden if not Bell as well. I also think Flavia is worth a look

later

to go for a Dictator hit.

The Townblock is on Passenger (Frog/furtive/andres/ NYM) and the Kookaburra wagon is split between groupscum (Roden/Bell) and Town (Dease/Penguin.)

It makes more sense to me now why you two insist on voting Kookaburra, but I still don't think it's a bright idea. I think Kookaburra is 1% groupscum, 15% dictator and ~84% angry Townslot with a shitty role. Maybe my read is off or w.e and Kookaburra is more likely to be the Dictator, w.e, they still have a decent chance to be an angry Resident with a poop role getting piled on D1.

The priority in these games is usually to hit groupscum first and I'm telling you again that Kookaburra is not an informed minority; if you're lucky they are the Dictator, and if they are the Dictator you can be sure they are screwed this game. Please do not lose sight of the Townblock piling onto Passenger.

[Frogsterking]

@mod

is Kookaburra confirmed not to be the Dictator because of your announcement that they're an Advocate?

1) What is a Dictator?
2) Kokabiel is not an Innocent Child.

1) Dictator is the name of the Third Party in this game, and we don't know what their abilitie(s) are yet (AFAIK), all we know is that they can't win together with the scum (called Delegates.) I think Kookaburra technically could be the Dictator? Or is that not possible? Maybe we should just ask (asked at the top of this post.

2) True

So @Frogs, your theory then is Roden is being deliberately scummy to take the fall for Passenger?

I also think that locktowning Bombay this early reads like possible tmi to me because while I do think Bombay is very likely town, a locktown read this early seems kind of suss.

If someone said they hard tr me, I wouldn’t be suspicious but if they actually lock townread me on d1 ot before a single flip, I’d definitely be thinking tmi, unless they have meta locktowning slots like Mastina does of course.

So what’s the actual downside in limming Roden before Passenger? Do you think Passenger has a better role or something? I think both are scummy and agree that Koka is probably a bad wagon.

Yeah, Roden TRs are slimy as shit and I think Roden is trying to tilt us and wants us to split the votes between Passenger and himself so the Kookaburra wagon can go through.

Roden's Bombay pocket attempt is overt but his other TRs suck too. On me is obvious shade:

Early posts suggest Frog is town due to his ego.

And on Johnny it's just completely inexplicable:

scum don't need to pretend to be scumhunting this game

Huh? What do you know that I dont

Ok Johnny is town lol.

__

So what’s the actual downside in limming Roden before Passenger? Do you think Passenger has a better role or something? I think both are scummy and agree that Koka is probably a bad wagon.

Yeah I think we are lucky that furtive and andres are paying attention and willing to wagon Passenger. I don't think we can guarantee that we will get a big wagon going on Roden today, but I think Passenger will flip scum and then I think that will expose the Kookaburra wagon for what it is.

I think Passenger is more likely to be a scum PR than Roden because:

1) he played a lot more lamisty at the start with the fake Town telling/scumhunting and trying to be analytical and stuff

2) Roden is playing very provocative toward my slot and basically just going for pockets on the people he thinks he can get like marci and Luke

Yeah this is no good. I can't clear myself and i think Passenger is town, so that's 2 miselims.
I suppose it's time to come out with my modifier.
When i get modconfirmed the government receives a notification that the delegation will find out their identity during the next night phase(N2 in this case) unless i get killed.
I didn't say anything so i could watch the votes on me and their reasonings and Catguin looked like he had an eureka moment right after i got Modconfirmed. And AFTER that he asked what the hell a moonlight dancer is.

My friend, please, Passenger is not all that lol. I am like very loud and I want you to live because I don't trust two of the people on your wagon (Roden and Bell.) I saw your most recent post and I don't have buckets overflowing with trust for Johnny or Flavia either. I think NYM and Dease are solid. I'm hoping Dease will change his mind about you and vote Passenger instead. I don't...really understand why Dease is voting you. Please help me help you and vote Passenger, I think you will be pleasantly surprised by their flip.

[Frogsterking]

Nancy, what kind of roles do you think

try

to get themselves voted out? Besides Jester, I mean.

*raises hand*

A named-Resident with a role that can't really do anything who is mad at the players voting them and wants to flip to reveal their alignment and show everyone they were wrong.

Also, a player who is genuinely trying to scumhunt rather than tactically picking and choosing who they pretend to Townread like your slot is doing.

@Nancy

They are like me in Lost or w.e when I was making everyone want to vote me, the anger is strong in them and they are based and not thinking through who they piss off. Kookaburra only cares about finding and killing scum. They're almost certainly a Resident IMO. If they are pissing you off then just don't talk to them. You and Kookaburra are clashing a little bit IMO, you're both fiery. I can understand what they're saying I think:

they think you're trying to make them look bad with posts like #460 and you aren't voting them because you don't want to look bad after they flip (which they know will be Town.) They are pocketed by Passenger for some reason and think you are trying to line up miselims on them.

PEdit:

Yeah I feel like I understand their thought process in #469 though I don't agree with it. They are on hella tilt right now but trying to solve. They are aggroing you instead of other Passenger voters because they didn't like how you talked to them in #460. They are reading a scum motivation into the way you worded #460. That is just how they look for scum. They think you made this tell here: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... 8.2B1.0.29

The "lol defense."

Also, notice how Roden disappears when you and Kookaburra start fighting. That's a sign IMO you two are TvT.

@Kookaburra

Why do you trust Passenger so much? I think that slot is nothing but bad news for Residents. I'm pretty sure NYM is a Resident and is trying to vote out the Delegates/Government. They wrote #460 because they disagree with your reads not because they are trying to make you look bad. You and Nancy are both fiery so the communication is turning confrontational but I'm pretty sure you're on the same team.

Oh yeah there was a change in scum rankings
Penguin - government
N.Y.M & Flavia - my scum bets
Deas and Johnny - alternative scum

N.Y.M was defensive of me putting them in the "solve". Then they got angry and called me scum because i'm using the vulnerability the hydra mech has. That's fine, it's not like people have their own opinions on hydras.
I gave them a list of topics they can explore which they promptly ignore because I dunno; It's like they are done milking me and think they have done enough content-wise

@Dease

I read Kookaburra's above post as sincere, I don't think they have an agenda. I think the anger is just loud in Kookaburra and they are playing the game in their own way. It's not suspicious.

@Frog: Assume i can be any alignment.

IMO even though I agree it's technically possible, I'm not convinced Kookaburra is the

Dictator

Government agent because their role sucks too much. I think the Government would send an agent with a better ability. I think they are a named-Resident.

@Kookaburra

, did you paraphrase your flavor yet? That might help lend some authenticity that you at least aren't a

Dictator

Government agent.

PEdit:

@furtive

There's a small chance it's in my imagination but I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere. I'm checking now.

I am very wrong, I'm sorry for the confusion.

I thought the Government was the alignment and the actual 3rd party role is called a Dictator and the flavor is that they are trying to take over the Community.

Your interpretation was correct and mine was wrong, the 3rd party is just a Government agent and their alignment is Antisocial. I think it was the flavor combined with the Antisocial alignment which caused me to misremember it as a Dictator.

The government isn't helping much with your troubles, unfortunately. With their own plans on handling the situation, they've enlisted their best agent to ensure everything ends their way.

From the signup queue

There is a Government operative who is Antisocial

From the mod post

[Frogsterking]

I think i remember seeing the word dictator somewhere in mods posts, but i can't find it

@Mod: Did you edit the role dictator in your posts so far?

Assuming what i said about my flavor is true, why would government!Frog defend me if scum will learn of his identity N2 unless he kills me?

Idk. The other possibility is that mafia are informed about the Dictator. Either way, I never saw the word Dictator in mod posts, including pre-game and advertisement. I don't think you need the mod to clarify that. And the way Frogsterking kept using the word Dictator, makes me think that Dictator is in fact the word for the 3p in this game and that he knows about it somehow.

It only makes sense to you though. Yellow pushed me the entire time they were alive because I called the majority faction "Masques" instead of "invitees" in RH's anonymous game and they were convinced this is somehow a mistake I'm more likely to make as the mafia. Spoiler: it isn't, and they died contributing nothing to the game except irritating me and everyone who tried to explain to them that their push was weird.

Your idea would make some sense if there were like a flipped role where Dictator was actually a thing that mafia are informed of but you don't even have that, you're just guessing and not evaluating the information you actually have in front of you. There is no reason why you should flip a townread on me because of a semantic mistake I'd probably be less likely to make as mafia.

IMO you probably have more self control or insight or whatever the hell was wrong with that player in the yellow masque slot to realize that this push on me is weird and it's more likely I made a honest mistake which has nothing to do with my alignment, other than that it might be +town if anything because I genuinely don't know what the 3rd party is called.

[Frogsterking]

I think i remember seeing the word dictator somewhere in mods posts, but i can't find it

@Mod: Did you edit the role dictator in your posts so far?

Assuming what i said about my flavor is true, why would government!Frog defend me if scum will learn of his identity N2 unless he kills me?

Idk. The other possibility is that mafia are informed about the Dictator. Either way, I never saw the word Dictator in mod posts, including pre-game and advertisement. I don't think you need the mod to clarify that. And the way Frogsterking kept using the word Dictator, makes me think that Dictator is in fact the word for the 3p in this game and that he knows about it somehow.

It only makes sense to you though. Yellow pushed me the entire time they were alive because I called the majority faction "Masques" instead of "invitees" in RH's anonymous game and they were convinced this is somehow a mistake I'm more likely to make as the mafia. Spoiler: it isn't, and they died contributing nothing to the game except irritating me and everyone who tried to explain to them that their push was weird.

Your idea would make some sense if there were like a flipped role where Dictator was actually a thing that mafia are informed of but you don't even have that, you're just guessing and not evaluating the information you actually have in front of you. There is no reason why you should flip a townread on me because of a semantic mistake I'd probably be less likely to make as mafia.

IMO you probably have more self control or insight or whatever the hell was wrong with that player in the yellow masque slot to realize that this push on me is weird and it's more likely I made a honest mistake which has nothing to do with my alignment, other than that it might be +town if anything because I genuinely don't know what the 3rd party is called.

Why did you come up with Dictator then? Government operative is surely more likely called an Agent, or a Spy, or something like that. It seems too random to be a guess, and you're saying you swear you saw it somewhere when there's no trace of it. That sounds like you read it in your PM and thought it was public info.

IMO most people who become dictators have antisocial personality disorder so it makes sense to me I imagined a Government agent literally aligned as Antisocial to be a role called Dictator. Either that or it was used as part of the flavor originally and edited out like Kookaburra was theorizing. I think the fact that I've been calling the other player Kookaburra all game should be a sign that this isn't an AI mistake for me; it's not like I have some hidden knowledge about Kookaburras in my role PM, that's just what the player's username reminds me of.

[Frogsterking]

I decided only to partially claim my role today:

#1 I'm informed that at least one player has a role which gets misleading results.

#2 Protectives don't go on me. I'm paranoid this advice won't get followed.

__

#3 Scum team read is

moderate

certainty:

Passenger/Roden/Bell

Government reads are

low

certainty:

2nd choice Flavia (my case applied to gov instead of groupscum), 1st choice Penguin (Kookaburra's theory)

I townread everyone not mentioned above except for Johnny, who I null read. If I die we're Probably Gonna be Okay

[Frogsterking]

After y'all get your kicks from mislimming Kookaburra remember the groupscum are Passenger/Bell/Roden and the government agent might be Penguin cause of what Kookaburra's reaction test revealed. I'm going to go back to my hermit frog spot in the mountains away from this Community cause I'm disgusted with y'all voting out
Kookaburra instead of the damn group scum.

[Frogsterking]

After y'all get your kicks from mislimming Kookaburra remember the groupscum are Passenger/Bell/Roden and the government agent might be Penguin cause of what Kookaburra's reaction test revealed. I'm going to go back to my hermit frog spot in the mountains away from this Community cause I'm disgusted with y'all voting out
Kookaburra instead of the damn group scum.

Mindmeld, apart from the fact that someone is apparently going to announce Roden's conftown status very soon

I just finished successfully conning a Town with a scumsided Mailman "mod confirming" themselves Town by fakeclaiming JOAT with a Town Friendly Neighbor shot, so whatever Roden is up to I'll believe Roden's claim once he's dead and his alignment is "mod revealed" for us all to see.

[Frogsterking]

Mine and Roden's roles are slightly different so i'm assuming the names are different cuz of that.

IMHO, I believe furtive is onto something with one Advocate being Town and the other being scum. I don't think we can just assume it to be true in a vacuum, but based on behavior you are Townie and Roden isn't at all, so I think in this situation it's a good theory.

[Frogsterking]

Off the cuff reads in no particular order:

TOWN
Bell
Bombay
DV
Furtive
Johnny
Frog
Herta

NULL
NYM
Penguin
Flavia

DIDN'T REALIZE THEY WERE IN THIS GAME
Andres

SCUM
Koka
Passenger

Roden hasn't really been faking a read progression so he's still locked into this. My guess is that he's going to send it to Bell because some players still trust him since he's playing under the radar.

[Frogsterking]

Off the cuff reads in no particular order:

TOWN
Bell
Bombay
DV
Furtive
Johnny
Frog
Herta

NULL
NYM
Penguin
Flavia

DIDN'T REALIZE THEY WERE IN THIS GAME
Andres

SCUM
Koka
Passenger

Roden hasn't really been faking a read progression so he's still locked into this. My guess is that he's going to send it to Bell because some players still trust him since he's playing under the radar.

Barring the message being revealed from someone sus, there may be some fake claim shenanigans going on. Like I said, I just finished conning a Town with Eiralox where we tricked Bella into claiming "Eiralox is 100% Town" by asking them to in a Mailman message, and then nightkilled them so Eiralox could claim he sent them a TFN message.

@Luke

I'm not going to resort to ad hominem this game because I don't want to be that kind of player and overall I think you're playing quite well, but I think you're propensity to trust Roden right now might be the death of us all because I think Passenger/Bell/Roden is an extremely tight team solve.

[Frogsterking]

Barring the message being revealed from someone sus, there may be some fake claim shenanigans going on. Like I said, I just finished conning a Town with Eiralox where we tricked Bella into claiming "Eiralox is 100% Town" by asking them to in a Mailman message, and then nightkilled them so Eiralox could claim he sent them a TFN message.

Especially like if I can draw some comparison between Roden and myself and Luke, this might seem like a lot of work to a player like Luke who is good at faking interactions as scum, but for someone like me or Roden we are basically living or dying based on Town's willingness to Towncore or mech clear us for bad reasons.

[Frogsterking]

I cannot confirm Roden.

Did you receive a Mailman message lol?

Here is why I'm weary of Roden's claim:

Tbf what frog has said has happened...

Erias town.

I promised a response to this.

Spoiler: Context

So you followed my suggestion to threaten to vote out Eiralox unless he claims. He squirmed and made excuses and left, which is pretty fucking fishy, and…you did the exact thing you said was a bad idea, which is pretend to threaten to kill him. How do you justify that?

Re: pretend to threaten to kill him:
This is one of the things that got lost in the fray and maybe I didn't communicate well, but at the time I voted Eira, I did so completely willing to eliminate them. And then I got spooked and unvoted.

I don't think I threatened to kill Eira after they left?

I am not in a position where I am thinking especially logically. You are within your rights to think this is an excuse or to find this frustrating.

UNVOTE:

Also, unfortunate fact, I have a commitment this evening and need to leave soon. I will make sure not to leave until I've cast a vote. I will also check in before the end of the day to provide a hammer if this is necessary.

And then I got spooked and unvoted.

Why?

Tell me why you aren't willing to risk Eiralox's life when he is being antitown, avoiding committing to a claim, making up excuses, lashing out, and not giving reasons for scumreads despite being all too happy to vote me for FoS'ing him. Tell me why.

And then I got spooked and unvoted.

Why?

Ugh, something about Bella seeming like she kinda wanted Eira to live, but I guess she did say herself she isn't sure what alignment they are.

VOTE: Not Mafia
Maybe Bella can shoot Eira or something.

I need to go. If I am alive tomorrow I will engage Grib, Eira, or whoever is alive that needs to be engaged with. I will make sure to write a proper case. As an exchange for this, I will be much less receptive to people trying to change my mind last-minute if we are in that situation, and reserve the right to not engage at deadline.

Tell me why you aren't willing to risk Eiralox's life when he is being antitown, avoiding committing to a claim, making up excuses, lashing out, and not giving reasons for scumreads despite being all too happy to vote me for FoS'ing him. Tell me why.

I don't care what happens, Aisa needs to answer this next phase. Don't let her skip out on it.

Bella seemed pretty adamant that Eiralox shouldn't die and I thought that trumped other considerations. For example, did it seem like Eira was being antitown in a vacuum? Sure. Was Eira being antitown given Bella's behaviour around that slot? Not so clear. Did Eira lash out at you and me? Yeah and maybe that could have been handled differently somewhere, but that's not really something I usually read scumread.

Grib - Vanilla Townie - endgamed Day 4
Frogsterking - Mafia Doctor - survives and wins Day 4
Titus Eiralox - Mafia Mailman - survives and wins Day 4
Aisa - Vanilla Townie - endgamed Day 4
Elements - Vanilla Townie - endgamed Day 4

[Frogsterking]

Frog, I think that you are not re-evaluating Roden's actions in light of his ability reveal. Roden having an Advocate ability explains his focus on Koka over Passenger

It doesn't explain the primary reason why I am scumreading Roden: his shade and condescending tone, unbelievable reads list and seeming unwillingness to sort any slots over pushing an agenda.

Please read 555 and 554 again. I will reconsider and think about what you're saying, but I want you to also reconsider what I'm saying as well: this is the kind of play which players with my and Roden's playstyle are much more likely to attempt as scum than you would be because we can't rely on our ability to fake interactions with the Town.

[Frogsterking]

does not include the self clearing part.

That's not true. I literally just gave you evidence to the contrary: I just attempted exactly what you're saying scum would never do and it caused my team to win the game. Please read 555 and 554 again and consider that your own skill as a scum player is causes you to make different choices than someone like Roden or I would

[Frogsterking]

@Bombay

Hello everyone! I am here, ready to be a shining light against the delegation!

VOTE: DeasVail

JUST the delegation?

I am kind of thinking that StarPower appearing to not know that there is a 3rd party makes them more likely to be town.

Seriously doubt that the actual 3rd party would not be too self-conscious to frame it that way, so imo town>scum>3rd party

But mafia can't collaborate with the 3rd party in this game. Everybody losses. So,

makes sense mafia would be as interested in this 3rd party as the town.

Or not that interested yet as the game just started.

This feels like you misunderstood. My point was that the mafia would be

more

cognizant of the existence of the 3rd party, while StarPower's post reads like someone who was not thinking about the existence of a 3rd party.

Therefore, town being the most likely alignment to make such a post.

Not the basis for a strong read, but as far as page 1 posts go, it is nice to have an inkling on someone

~Luke

I lied,

now

I'm gonna start reading. Liking this read from Luke, it has some depth and it's about what I expect for an early read from him.

Roden buttering up Luke by telling him his ideas have depth. Buttering up scum tell https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... 8.2B0.5.29

VOTE: kokabiel

Spoiler:

-Marci

Awww how cute~

can you vote kokabiel

-marci

This, on the other hand, is NOT cute at all. I fail to see how calling acquaintances to join a... RVS? vote is town behavior.
I doubt scum would blatantly call their buddies like this so thats one association down.

Why didn’t you ask me?

can you vote kokabiel?

Yuck. Can totes see this as a scum theater.

The scumminess in this post's tone is out of this world lmao. This is how you scum post when you want to appear like you don't care about getting scum read, the confidence is just too misplaced.

VOTE: Kokabiel

Roden making up a motive to vote Kookaburra "the scumminess is out of this world." Trying to discredit an obtown player for bad reason https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... 8.2B1.0.29

The difference is that Marci invited you, whereas Dease invited himself. Marci can invite anyone, so how would that make it SvS?

I do agree with you that it felt weird when deasnails invited himself to your wagon like that, it felt like he was a pick me and just wanted to be on my side lol, but I didn't really pay that much attention at the time since I was more focused on you.

can you vote kokabiel

-marci

This, on the other hand, is NOT cute at all. I fail to see how calling acquaintances to join a... RVS? vote is town behavior

Why do you think it’s scum behavior?

The vote itself isn't bad, it's the fact that she is calling other people to join it. Pushing someone without any reason is dumb and anti-town.
While anti-town doesn't necessarily mean scum, it's the best thing i have right now and getting rid of people like this in absence of better alternatives is a great move.
I decided to scumread this instead of seeing it as bad town because i doubt she would make such a blunder as town.

pUsHiNg sOMeOnE wItHoUt aNy rEaSOn iS dUmB aNd aNtI-tOwN
first off, I did have a reason although it wasn't super solid. not sharing ≠ no reason. if you really cared enough you could've asked... instead you jumped to defensive lol
second, who are you? "i doubt she would make such a blunder as town." is a personal statement that implies you know a bit about me and how i play.... but thing is i've literally done this before so what bullshit tree are you trying to plant?
i'm willing to back down, but you aren't really showing me any reason at all as to why you could be town right now. Right now how I view you is kinda survivalistic.. like in the way I think 3p would be. It looks like you're just trying to shut

me

up since it seems like you scumread only me and not luke. The fact that your only real reads are on people who've voted you isn't a good look. I think you overreacted for the amount of votes you

did

get.

S
Marci said she wanted to vote Koka because her iso was "beyond useless"

Marci please enlighten me with the amazing reads you got from pages 1-3. Luke has been doing all the lifting for you so far and i can't say i'm impressed even as a joke.

This reads snarky for...no reason..? I haven't even posted all day while being at work.. It did give me a moment of doubt ngl, but give me something to actually tr you on, anyone can do this as any alignment.
Maybe you should think about giving reads first before asking for them.

Originally I was going to vote for Flavia instead of you actually, but I thought more about it and decided it was more just playstyle differences.
Originally I didn't like froggie (for 11) but after thinking about it and talking to luke I've decided to wait a bit on that before deciding. Though is still not best vibes IMO
Bells alright so far. Penguinpowers prob alright? I like Passenger the most.
^ These don't limit only to the first few pages, though looking at it reminds me of it.

Luke is right, it just seems like you aren't trying to get a better understanding of anything.

-Marci

Nice both heads are townie, I feel good about town locking this slot.

Buttering up the Bombay hydra AGAIN, this time by complimenting marci who is pathetically easy to pocket. https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... 8.2B0.5.29

Not sure if Luke is being too generous here with me.

I kinda hip shot you town based off of your interaction with Furtive. It was a combo of the tone feeling right, your conclusions on furtive being identical to my own, and you also immediately spot checking the flavor to match it with the claim.

Have not really circled back to looking at you since then.

I can pretend to scum read you though it you want

This. I think the attention to detail is +town, whereas I think scum is more likely to see a Miller claim and just groan and move on.

Buttering up Luke AGAIN by complimenting him for attention to detail. https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... 8.2B0.5.29


There is an obvious agenda from Roden to pocket the Bombay hydra and push the Kookaburra wagon through which is not explained by Roden's shitty conman-style fakeclaim.

[Frogsterking]

God I'm going to go back to my hermit frog mountain. I guess I just have to promise my alignment is mod confirmable (but only one person of my choosing can see it oooOOOooo) and whisper sweet nothings into people's ear if I want to play as scummy as I want without repercussions.

...oh wait, I literally just did that, it was really easy and our scum team won. Mini Normal 2283.

[Frogsterking]

Why are we considering Roden when they literally just said they would confirm themselves.

Shut up Bell you fucking scumfuck lmfao

Go smoke another blunt Jesus Christ

[Frogsterking]

Y'all kids with your fancy power roles don't have an appreciation no more for good old-fashioned scum huntin'

[Frogsterking]

MY ROLE IS INFORMED FYI IN CASE ANYONE MISSED ME CLAIM IT:

INFORMED: AT LEAST ONE ROLE PROVIDES A MISLEADING RESULT

I WONDER IF THAT HAS ANYTHING TO WITH HOW RODEN'S ROLE WORKS...

[Frogsterking]

MY ROLE IS INFORMED FYI IN CASE ANYONE MISSED ME CLAIM IT:

INFORMED: AT LEAST ONE ROLE PROVIDES A MISLEADING RESULT

I WONDER IF THAT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH HOW RODEN'S ROLE WORKS...

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Frogsterking]

I decided only to partially claim my role today:

#1 I'm informed that at least one player has a role which gets misleading results.

I already claimed it earlier before Roden claimed. I assumed it was referring to an investigative, but I was jumping to conclusions, I doublechecked my role PM just now because I was getting suspicious, and below is the exact wording:

MY ROLE IS INFORMED FYI IN CASE ANYONE MISSED ME CLAIM IT:

INFORMED: AT LEAST ONE ROLE PROVIDES A MISLEADING RESULT

I WONDER IF THAT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH HOW RODEN'S ROLE WORKS...

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

At least one player has a role who

PROVIDES

a misleasing result. I wonder what kind of mod given information Roden may have

PROVIDED

to someone with his

ROLE

via a

PRIVATE MESSAGE

. I wonder if Roden has a

SCUM PR

with the ability to

MISLEAD

as you now know

THERE IS AT LEAST ONE ROLE IN THIS GAME WHICH PROVIDES MISLEADING RESULTS

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Roden

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Bell

[Frogsterking]

Passenger

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Passenger

VOTE: Passenger

[Frogsterking]

I sent it to Frog, for a few reasons. Sending it to my biggest detractor

I didn't receive a message from Roden.

VOTE: Roden

[Frogsterking]

Vote Roden for lying or go back to newbie queue. I'm using 2 posts for this so you all can be explicitly sure:

I didn't receive a message from Roden. You can be damn sure that one of us is lying. It should be obvious to you that Roden is the one who is lying, but if you have to flip me first to find out that Roden/Passenger/Bell are the group scum, then be my guest and vote me instead of Roden.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Passenger

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Bell

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Roden

[Frogsterking]

on that note I could see an argument for eliminating frog today

I'm fine with being eliminated today in order to confirm Roden scum.

Like I've said, my team solve is Roden/Passenger/Bell. I null read Johnny and Flavia and I townread everyone else.

My reads for Government have changed since last posting, and I now believe Dease is Government for my first choice and Penguin is government for my second choice.

[Frogsterking]

I'm unsure whether one scum is YOLOing, one town is *throwing* or if the Government is a type of Jester. The Gov didn't sound like a Jester though.

He's not throwing scum by the way: he's gambiting in order to redirect the wagon off of Passenger and to potentially get a mislim on me. Most likely Roden's role provides utility to the scum team and Roden himself is no longer needed to be alive after his abilities activation, whereas scum need Passenger alive in order to activate his ability at night.

[Frogsterking]

Why would Roden makes that up tho

He's not throwing scum by the way: he's gambiting in order to redirect the wagon off of Passenger and to potentially get a mislim on me. Most likely Roden's role provides utility to the scum team and Roden himself is no longer needed to be alive after his abilities activation, whereas scum need Passenger alive in order to activate his ability at night.

Herta stop dumbtelling/not reading my posts.

[Frogsterking]

I just want to clarify:

Mod has confirmed my claim isn't bastard and therefore is in compliance with the setup.

As far as we know, there is no reason to believe that Roden has the role which provides misleading results, because Roden lied about the ability to mod confirm himself via private message. We currently don't know what effect the activation of Roden's ability actually had, though I think we can expect it doesn't require Roden to be alive once it's activated, or he wouldn't have locked himself into a 1v1 claim with me.

For all we know, Herta's theory about my role referring to furtive-who claimed miller-is correct. In fact that's currently my top guess for what my role was referring to.

[Frogsterking]

I'm kind of at a loss for words

Not yet, we still require 3 more votes to accomplish this.

Ego.

Protectives don't target me tonight.

[Frogsterking]

Why vote ME

I didn't receive a message from Roden. You can be damn sure that one of us is lying. It should be obvious to you that Roden is the one who is lying, but if you have to flip me first to find out that Roden/Passenger/Bell are the group scum, then be my guest and vote me instead of Roden.

Ego.

[Frogsterking]

If Luke is Town then this is strike two for me as far as Town play is concerned. I came into this game with an open mind and what I'm learning is that Town!Luke has <rand reads because they Townread people who kiss their butt, which scum are more likely to do. Luke is either doing an incredible job pretending to be clueless or lacks sufficient insight to be able to sort players in a game where players of one alignment are motivated to lie to him. It's not very fun to play with from my point of view and it disgusts me a little bit.

If Luke is scum here then well played.

I sent it to Frog, for a few reasons. Sending it to my biggest detractor forces him to have to accept he was wrong, if he's town. That part's important, because Koka already stated that when an Advocate reveals themself, that it gives information to the Government.

Besides the player I target, the Government also learns that I'm town.

This is Roden saying that he sends a friendly neighbor style message AND that the government learns that he's town.

So

The questions I have are:

Why would Roden say at this point that he also sends a friendly neighbour style message if he actually can't?

I don't think it's absolutely impossible, but to me that seems less likely than Frogster lying.

I'm less skeptical of Dease Townplay than I am of Luke's so I find the dumbtelling from Dease to be more indicative that he's lying.

[Frogsterking]

Probably my last post in case I need my post bank D2/D3.

Frog, anything to say on this?

My experience with Luke in Lost was that he lacked any ability to Townread me whatsoever, so unfortunately it's in his Townrange to believe I'm scum to a level of delusion which equals my own delusion that catboi was scum in KTANE.

That said, in my experience scum have linked to KTANE when I have pushed them and they were trying to convince others not to vote with me. I'm becoming skeptical Luke is actually this badly pocketed by Roden, so my read on him goes down a lot for making this argument that there is somehow any ambiguity in "you can be damn sure one of Roden and I are lying."

If I had to choose one of Roden/Passenger/Bell to switch for Bombay, I would switch out Bell, though that raise more questions than it answers, like:

@Bell

, do you honestly have any idea what's happening in this game or no?

__

Dease has become my top choice for 3rd party because:

-Dease' read progression on me makes no sense. There is a motivation to take me out now and let Roden take the fall for it because as 3rd party Dease doesn't want to eventually get stuck in an endgame with me.

-I don't believe Dease' dumbtelling about fakeclaims right now is genuine.

-The timing of Dease' vote on Kookaburra coincides with 3rd party's incentive to vote Kookaburra as specified by Kookaburra's role.

__

To summarize:

-At least one player has a role which provides misleading information. IMO could just be furtive.

-Protects don't go on me tonight.

-Roden is confirmed groupscum FMPOV because locking himself into a 1v1 claim as 3rd party doesn't make sense. (Another reason why I'm Town compared to 3rd party here for those of you still having doubts. I GUESS it's possible that brings up an alternative explanation for Roden's play in that I'm scum team's read for 3rd party and they were hoping I would reciprocate in a lie with them out of fear of entering a 1v1 claim. I VERY MUCH hope to find out that's what happened postgame.)

-My second choice for 3rd party is Penguin. My first choice is Dease which I outlined above. I don't really think either are group scum.

-I null read Bombay, Flavia, Johnny. If I'm wrong on Bell it can be any of those three.

-I scum read Roden/Passenger/Bell and I think they are all connected by strong associative tells as well as independently scummy ISOs.

-I townread everyone pretty hard who isn't otherwise specified above.

-I'm ready for Roden to be hammered and N1 to begin. I prefer not to waste any more of my post bank today in case I actually need it later. If you want to hammer me instead of Roden then don't be shy about it, you have ~24 hours to find like 8 votes on me.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Bell

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Roden

[Frogsterking]

You seem to be letting me [incorrectly scum reading you, really strongly, one time] color your entire view of me quite a bit.

What's also coloring my view of your play is this:

1) You believe I'm Town

2) You are voting a slot I strongly Townread (Kookaburra) WITH the player who FMPOV is confirmed groupscum.

FMPOV you are either incompetent because it's impossible for Roden and I to both be telling the truth, or you're scum who is pretending to be incompetent by voting a player who makes no sense to be voting considering you have a 50 50 shot at hitting groupscum by voting between Roden or I.

If you are able to admit you misread Roden's fakeclaim and adjust your play EoD to account for the fact that you now know your Townread on one (or both I guess sometimes) of Roden or I is wrong, that would do wonders to remedy my view that your Townplay is incompetent.

If you continue to vote Kookaburra despite the fact you know at least one of Roden or I must be lying by fact, and you have no factual reasons (or even good reasons IMO) to suspect that Kookaburra is lying, then I am going to call your Townplay incompetent, because with the information available to you there is no competent reason for you to believe that voting Kookaburra is an effective choice compared to voting between Roden or I.

[Frogsterking]

Final thoughts on the Roden Vs Frog thing.

~Roden is always town.

[Frogsterking]

My mind is literally blown with how terrible Luke is at Town.

[Frogsterking]

Luke can't fathom the idea that at least one of Roden and I have to be scum and that Roden simply lied about a claim. Absolutely unbelievable.

Luke, you have shot all of your credibility for your belief that not only is Roden "always Town" here, but that there is somehow in your mind a possibility that Roden and I can BOTH be Town. You're truly incredible Luke: as in literally in-credible, like I can't believe these are real takes coming from a real player.

[Frogsterking]

I'm going to become a hermit frog for real now so I don't have to bust my chops making sense while Luke mis-hammers like 4 Town slots in a row and then claims postgame it wasn't his fault Residents lost.

[Frogsterking]

Turns out I was right on all counts.

Like how you accused me of lying about my role because I'm stubborn or something? Huh?

[Frogsterking]

I think your reads on the actual alignment of players in the game was excellent, and your assessment about my character and who was telling the truth and who was not was ass-backwards.

[Frogsterking]

Shouldn't you be saying that to me rather than Luke.
I feel like I was giving you a harder time than they were

Huh?

...

Motivation for Roden is wrong.
Tactics are wrong.
Overall Strategy going nowhere.
Frogster response not made unless they got a pm and promptly lost their marbles. Still annoyed that they didn't learn anything from the Petapan disaster. I.e., it's not the wild west, Cowboy. Stop lying to people for a mere gamble. If you're going to lie at least aim for tangibility and plausibility and don't ignore people who have just as much experience as you do at mafia and are saying drastically different things about the set up.

Yo what the fuck?

[Frogsterking]

Whatever. I'm over it. I'm sorry I got so angry. It was an unusual scenario where no explanation really checked out.

[Frogsterking]

And you did both have great reads this game.

[Frogsterking]

And since I have been in a game with you in which you ignored mod revealed info based on the strength of your reads, so I thought you were the one of the two of you lying (incorrect).

I was not trying to make any statements about your character, I was trying to piece together what was happening in a game where I am given a fraction of the information. The Game Of Mafia

Did you consider that I was unaware of the difference between "bastard" and "nonbastard" games when I accused catboi of having a changeling role? Did you bother to check my account and see how many games I had actually completed on this website at the time I played KTANE? Did you consider that I eventually accepted in KTANE that my read was impossible and resigned myself to being policy eliminated for my mistake? Did you consider that I may have learned from my mistake that and been less likely to repeat a similar one now, rather than more likely?

[Frogsterking]

And since I have been in a game with you in which you ignored mod revealed info based on the strength of your reads, so I thought you were the one of the two of you lying (incorrect).

I was not trying to make any statements about your character, I was trying to piece together what was happening in a game where I am given a fraction of the information. The Game Of Mafia

Did you consider that I was unaware of the difference between "bastard" and "nonbastard" games when I accused catboi of having a changeling role? Did you bother to check my account and see how many games I had actually completed on this website at the time I played KTANE? Did you consider that I eventually accepted in KTANE that my read was impossible and resigned myself to being policy eliminated for my mistake? Did you consider that I may have learned from my mistake that and been less likely to repeat a similar one now, rather than more likely?

Granted, I don't think it was particularly likely that Roden was lying either. If the options you have available are limited to scenarios where you strongly townread us both, I do think it was more likely objectively that roden was lying, because you are essentially claiming that I am more likely to ignore an inno report than Roden is to fake claim a guilty, which doesn't seem true?

Specifically what I meant about the character thing was:

1) the assumption that I was ignoring information in KTANE deliberately rather than being very unfamiliar with the distinction between bastard and non bastard theme games

2) taking that example and claiming that because of it, I am more likely to ignore mod confirmed information when I believe strongly in my reads, which is not a true statement

That's just what upset me specifically here.

Finally, I am sorry that I said you were an awful player a lot, in my opinion you were correct that I was not really listening to you this game because I was biased about your incorrect read on me in Lost. I no longer think my experience there is reflective of how you usually sort players, I now believe that you can play town well and you just made a mistake in Lost.