Fallout Mafia - Commonwealth Edition (Day 8)

[Ouroboros]

yeah projectmatt is town.
scum would be too happy letting all this infighting continue.

Could that be a reason why neither of the hydras were NK'd? Ignoring PRs for a second, I can somewhat see this being a strategy, especially if neither hydra was on them. Mind you, the latter part of this half assed WIFOM theory is the key.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Can someone sum up the case for me?

ETL wants them to get to L-1 until a votecount so that they can fullfill part of their quest that can confirm them as town, they want Ram coz Ram is scummy and if scum quickhammers to prevent the check, they're helping them lynching someone scummy anyway.

I'm still feeling the effects of White Flag.

What are the chances scum would bus in an 18 player game?

Ghost

Pedits~

[Ouroboros]

In case you hadn't realized there's a reason that people are refusing to let it be Wilky or anyone with actual scum equity: ramcius is town to me.

You are deliberately getting, in the way of a cop scan. That's not even borderline anti town, that's flat out scum. And even then I still believe that you're probably just mad town and im voting you coz I dont want someone that's purposefully playing anti town.

I don't believe the role has any value because I believe that the 'cop scan' is on a godfather at best. I am also very skeptical of the existence of the cop scan in general.
I'm going to talk to Ghost about whether or not it's time to claim.

[Ouroboros]

I miss geriatric.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Stop trying to use my hydra partner against me it doesn't work that way.

[Ouroboros]

Like there's a super easy resolution to this which is wagoning Wilky for the quest. Why is that answer being refused? What's the pro-town motivation in that?

None.

[Ouroboros]

yeah projectmatt is town.
scum would be too happy letting all this infighting continue.

Could that be a reason why neither of the hydras were NK'd? Ignoring PRs for a second, I can somewhat see this being a strategy, especially if neither hydra was on them. Mind you, the latter part of this half assed WIFOM theory is the key.

Ghost

Either you, me, ETL or tchill were the scum NK. OR ETL scum shot MWNN

Hmm...

I'm turning up a blank on possible scum motive for Bear to shot such a scrutinized player (not fact checked). The last time I played scum, our team coordinated the night kill to purposefully avoid 3 players who were primed to go at each other's throats, in order to help town push a mislynch.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Hmm...

I'm turning up a blank on possible scum motive for Bear to shot such a scrutinized player (not fact checked). The last time I played scum, our team coordinated the night kill to purposefully avoid 3 players who were primed to go at each other's throats, in order to help town push a mislynch.

Ghost

We already discussed this privately: the point is to masquerade as a vig kill.

[Ouroboros]

I miss geriatric.

Ghost

Even despite the shitshow that was that White Flag game?

Well....

Yes? I think it could've gone better.

That Easter episode where 5 people needed prodding sucked balls and probably is my only overarching semi-gripe about it.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

At least half of that hydra has a brain.

Could we take a break and watch heart warming and bittersweet YouTube videos of people rescuing animals as a mini break time?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Like I'd plop a video in the thread right now, but phone posting is less than ideal to do that.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Ghost, you down with keeping your vote on the wagon so RC can't quickhammer?

Uh.... I think we're not presently voting someone?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

I'm going to talk to Ghost about whether or not it's time to claim.

RC, I don't have D on my phone.

Please don't claim.

Ghost

Pedit - :3

Pedit #2 - @Bear - um....

Pedit #3 - @Matt - You'd have to ask RC.

[Ouroboros]

In post 1505, Kaede Akamatsu wrote:
@Mod: Does the flipped scum role bodyswap ability get restricted by being used once a day or it can be used inifinitely per day, the description doesnt mention it but i wanted it to be known if it wasnt a mistake.

Multiple times per day.

This should matter a lot to everyone who reads it btw.

[Ouroboros]

Multiple times per day.

????

@Mod - Can you clarify what yo mean by 'day'? Like every 24 hours or across multiple days in game e.g. Day One, Day Two, Day Three?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Balls.

Forgot to bold.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Well

To me, that just indicates scum probably has 1-2 high priority roles that they NEED to have or they just autolose the setup (and/or have mostly passive roles). I don't understand why that specifically means godfather.

BECAUSE WHY ELSE DOES IT MATTER WHO HAS THE ROLE, JUST CHANGING AROUND ROLES IS CHINSY.
HAVING A GODFATHER TO PUNISH POLICY CHECKING IS EXACTLY THE REASON YOU MAKE THAT ROLE.

[Ouroboros]

um

Why did they allow Ventriloquist to die wiith it then?

because the roles have already been dealt out..

[Ouroboros]

Ghost, you down with keeping your vote on the wagon so RC can't quickhammer?

Uh.... I think we're not presently voting someone?

Ghost

Yeah, I'm saying are you okay with being one of the 8 names for the wagon composition so that RC can't quickhammer. And voting Ramcius again if he unvotes.

This is for that quest right? Cause I'd rather lynch Hebi and TChill?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Actually yeah, why did Vent die with the body swap if keeping it would let them keep swapping stuff.

because they did what they wanted, they gave their strongest scum player a godfather and told people to cop them.

they don't need to keep switching stuff around and giving anything else to town means losing actual usable powers.

[Ouroboros]

Fuck you phone keyboard.

That was supposed to be a period.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Btw I'm also assuming that scum either has innate daytalk or an encryptor because that role kind of necessitates it.

Did I ever get an answer for that question on D1??

@Mod - Do scum have day talk?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

um

Why did they allow Ventriloquist to die wiith it then?

because the roles have already been dealt out..

You just saw that the ability can be kept using, so he could've swapped the role into someone else before dying.
Specially if they have a godfather i'd assume they'd want to keep that around to be switched at a momment's notice.

Why would they want to, you have one person that is your scum liable to bait cops why do you need to keep changing it around


likee

[Ouroboros]

Like the scum miller wilky?

He even said that it was a miller with other usable powers so...?

[Ouroboros]

Actually wilky claiming Miller and the confirmed presence of a body swapper makes both millers like super town.

If the miller was a fakeclaim why does it even matter presumably the role isn't even an actual miller at this point gosh x_x

[Ouroboros]

@Mod - Can you clarify what yo mean by 'day'?

The role can swap whenever they want, as long as the role is alive.

The moment you comprehend the full meaning of something is a great moment.

@Mod - If Vent did switch his role before the flip, would the role card reflect his new role or remain with the old one?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

SCUM WERE ABLE TO MAKE ONE PERSON OF THEIR CHOOSING A GODFATHER AND THERE WAS AN OBVIOUS CHOICE ON THE SCUMTEAM FOR COP CHECKS.

well it seems like we have the godfather inno coming up anyway.

why would a miller be a fake claim when there's another miller claim (Dave)
It makes no sense.
Why would you claim miller if you arent one when there's another miller claim (Dave), much less if you dont know if a rolecop exists.

ITS GIF FOR GODS SAKE WHY WOULD HE NOT MAKE A MILLER FAKECLAIM HNNHGH

[Ouroboros]

Actually wilky claiming Miller and the confirmed presence of a body swapper makes both millers like super town.

Explain this to me. I don't get it.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

And that is such a niche usage of the role, if scum had other powers they needed more like strongmans and shit then fuck yes they would give up the swapper tool.

they didn't expect this interpretation. we didn't even find out scum distributed their roles until now.

[Ouroboros]

You don't get it because it doesn't make sense Anony

[Ouroboros]

Append

Define append for me.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

I mean.

I bus.

But by and large I avoid it nowadays because I want to be left alone when I'm town and have correctly lynched scum

ie, I generally play against my wincon as town to give myself a measure of peace when I do roll town.

I do sometimes bus when it's hugely +equity. I don't think bussing Ventriloquist was ever hugely +equity. I rest my case. postiepost.

Ghost

Because if there's a body swapper there's no reason to fake claim miller, even if your role is actually miller with additional abilities you cant swap it out. You can just claim something else and use the body swapper to help you.

JFC HE THOUGHT HE WOULD BE TOWNREAD FOR IT BECAUSE SCUM READ THE MOD META.

YOU ARE NOT THINKING THIS THROUGH

THERE'S AN ESTABLISHED MOD META OF MULTIPLE TOWN MILLERS: IF THE FAKECLAIM CAME UP AND THEY SAW THAT, THEY WOULD CLAIM MILLER SOLELY FOR THE TOWNCRED THAT ACCOMPANIES IT. YOU ARE BEING VERY THICK RN.

[Ouroboros]

The miller claim

was it's own end

do you understand that?

[Ouroboros]

He didn't in our last game. There's no reason for scum to assume they'd be auto role copped when theyr'e likely to be written off as town and even if there's a role cop in the miller they'd believe its more likely ot hit davesaz.

It really makes sense for scum to do I don't understand why we're not seeing eye to eye on this.

[Ouroboros]

Actually wilky claiming Miller and the confirmed presence of a body swapper makes both millers like super town.

Explain this to me. I don't get it.

Ghost

Because if there's a body swapper there's no reason to fake claim miller, even if your role is actually miller with additional abilities you cant swap it out. You can just claim something else and use the body swapper to help you.

How does a swapper help a Miller team mate? Wouldn't that benefit scum being a Miller depending on what sort of results a cop receives e.g. Town/Not Town, Vanilla/Not Vanilla, etc?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Append

Define append for me.

Ghost

Add to it.

Ah. Okay.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

It's not. it's because of the play that surrounds it. I didn't scumread the miller claims, I scumread the player and I don't think the miller claim is a good reason to townread him

I outright think that the manner that he counterclaimed belied him knowing the other is town.

[Ouroboros]

Is it just me... Or are the people we're all arguing about convientlly NOT here e.g. Wilky and TChill mainly. But where's everyone else? It feels like 10+ pages since I haven't seen some of the other players.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

@Mod - Would the flip of a player who started the game with the role Vent flipped with be the role they began the game with or the role they died with?

They flip the role they died with.

Huh.

This is good news, right?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Like.

I just got vindicated as fuck in everything I was saying about there being high odds of them being a godfather.

Give me an ounce of credit please?

[Ouroboros]

Ank - Put in THAT perspective, I miss geriatric.

Okay, I'll stop complaining now.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

I'm not even saying to powerlynch impossibear today

I'm saying that they are not confirmed town and at no point today will be confirmed town and we should lynch someone who actually flips scum

Ramcius is also 100% not someone I support as expendable today, he's obvtown. yall could wagon like fucking kokichi or a laundry list of people who aren't in my heavy town list

but that's not happening because that's not what scum want to happen. I don't believe scum are letting go of the reins here.

[Ouroboros]

What? When was the day cop mentioned?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Quote it? Or gimme a page #?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

If my interaction with Dunn is any indication, I'm only giving 1/4ths attention to this thing.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

RC, you're playing like scum.

No. You just don't respect me.

[Ouroboros]

Role cop is the only one on that list that clears you.

[Ouroboros]

Or... Flipping a godfather. Or, you know, us being a fucking vig.

Like, why as godfather who can't swap anymore do we claim vig when it's pretty much impossible for us to know with any certainty there isn't a vig in the setup?

U claimed bulletproof vig and having claimed gated vig gives an excuse for multiple vig claims.

[Ouroboros]

No, I don't think you're bulletproof at all but claiming bulletproof is heavy vig deterrent.

[Ouroboros]

error citation needed

I remember ETL loudly saying to cop you

[Ouroboros]

Anyway ghost.
There is this quest that RMOJ sent to Bear, the quest means they have to
1) Be the third vote on a wagon that reaches L-1, reflected on the vote count.
2) Be the hammer on whoever gets lynched today.
If succesful Bear will be day copped.

RC doesnt want this to happen and is openly saying that they will quick hammer Ramcius if he gets to L-1.
If you disagree with this, please vote Ramcius and help bring him to L-1 while leaving RC unable to quickhammer.
If you agree with this, then why?

Has Beat fulfilled the first requirement?

Um. I gonna sound like a flake but I think the quest is worth a shot, and I trust RC but I don't want to make this thing more toxic than it is.

I'm skeptical about where this quest came from. This is me being needlessly paranoid, but what if it's bad?

I'm not gonna go against my hydra partner, but I will talk to him.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Ok, that's fair enough.

I'll leave them alone for a while then.

They should never make it to LyLo if they're town though and that should be applied to assuming they're scum if they never end up dead.

Still should be lynching Wilky.

[Ouroboros]

probably 1

your argument about it making wilky town still doesn't make sense btw.

[Ouroboros]

Hmm...

For now, all I will promise is talking to RC about not quick hammering - today, at the least.

Beyond that, I say I plead the fifth. Or whatever that means.

Ghsot

[Ouroboros]

Zzz~

Wake me up later.

Zzz.

Maybe if I get sleep I'll be able to pay attention better.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

I mean Kaede was trying to policy lynch us so

[Ouroboros]

we became masons when I realized that I've been in love with her for the past 2 years.

[Ouroboros]

Also im pretty sure i switched from policy to scumread on you when you kept making up arguments to fit your reads instead of following the evidence.

u don't know me kaede. you just don't.

you have a vision of me that you want to see and I could easily play into it as scum if I wanted but when I'm town I don't have that option.

you sr me in the game with alisae because I wanted to be SR.

[Ouroboros]

Also im pretty sure i switched from policy to scumread on you when you kept making up arguments to fit your reads instead of following the evidence.

Drop it. Maria doesn't fakeclaim masons here. I would bet hard money on it.

she doesn't?

[Ouroboros]

hint: we're not masons.

maybe I'll decide tomorrow if we're masons tomorrow but we're not masons today.

[Ouroboros]

u don't know me kaede. you just don't.

You tell this to everyone that DARES to scumread you.

BECAUSE YALL ALWAYS SCUMREAD ME AS TOWN.
FIND ME THE PERSON WHO SCUMREADS ME AS SCUM BUT NOT AS TOWN LOL
THEY DON'T EXIST

like there's not even anyone who scumreads me at an equivalent rate as both alignments besides people who scumread me 100% of the time.
so yes I do say this because it's true and you should acknowledge at some point that you don't understand me.

Every single time someone in this game as much as softs suspicion on you you've told them "You cant read me, no one knows how to read me"

you know a person is radiantcowbells when:

[Ouroboros]

RC and me already proved that vent's responses were doctored in the scum PT.
You cant deny that they were doctored by RC to make RC look good, no?

Kaede if u wanna sr me than sr me but

[Ouroboros]

DONT GO TO BED

FK

who will play league

[Ouroboros]

well if maria-chan says she can read me...

[Ouroboros]

thing is

instead of actually getting ventriloquist lynched

I would have just hardpushed my scumbuddy and not gotten them lynched


so easy to let ventriloquist live while looking super good for pushing on him with how much resistance there was

etc etc

[Ouroboros]

It's fine I made it that if RC is responsible for the death of impossibear he dies too.

I will take this trade if it becomes necessary

I don't at all approve of policy lynching people for being good at scum btw: I took a long time to learn to read LLD. The only time I mislynched her was because she refused to post or talk to me, hard townread her in our one town game, got her quicklynched in TM. Someone should actually take the time to learn to read me, but I suppose that's never gonna happen.

[Ouroboros]

I mean theoretically I could have written his posts for him and saved the trouble but yeah I don't care enough about my scumgames anymore to do that

[Ouroboros]

If you had a role like that and wasted it doing this then you're nuts.

[Ouroboros]

Kaede I realize that you don't like me for various reasons and I understand that but for the duration of this game can you just pretend that you care about how I feel about things?

[Ouroboros]

why would I care if ETL is around she is the last person in this game whose town game scares me right now.

[Ouroboros]

Like the reason you can't read me scum me at all is the same reason why most people can't read scum me at all: you don't understand my motivations as either town or scum whatsoever.
The explanation for why Ramcius who is town has to be wagoned over Wilky remains BS, if a quickhammer goes down it should be treated as a guilty on Impossibear as well.

Im pretty sure you can figure out several reasons.

You think that I think like you do but I don't and until you stop trying to fit my actions into your worldview and start trying to fit my actions into my own you'll never go anywhere.
I'm serious: start caring about the way I feel. Start thinking about who I am that certain progressions in the game upset me, what my trigger points are, what pushes me to act.
My play being so ruled by emotionality makes me hard to predict from a rational lens but if you actually figure out how I should

feel

at different points in the game you'll get a lot more mileage.
The only tells I have that I think I would have an uphill battle trying to change are the specifics of the emotional reactions that I have because I can't always be exactly in that town mindset and fake it exactly.
I get away with a lot due to non-Postie people not being able to understand what my reaction actually should be. If you want a chance against my scumgame, this is how.
Not deciding to policy scumread based off of stuff that's not even on the same axis as whether I'm town or scum (and is easily faked.)

[Ouroboros]

I don't understand your assertion that I created a toxic gamestate.

ETL and Jingle have provoked me to a ridiculous extent this game saying horrible things to me and I hit my breaking point. I think it's actually kind of disgusting on a broader scale that people are victim blaming me instead of telling them to replace for how horrible they've been to me but I intend to take that little point up with people in postgame because I understand that there's a huge empathy gap as long as you don't know I'm town.

if you dont think you are then tell me.
How many people on this playerlist aside from me, have asked you to stop.

You guys didn't tell ETL and Jingle to stop because I wasn't responding to it in kind so it was a lot easier to tolerate when it's just one person being fucking awful to another person.
When it becomes a 2 way conflict it becomes a lot bigger and that's what you reacted to. You all are 100% in the wrong.

[Ouroboros]

If I have to contest Impossibear and make this a bloodbath I will do so and I will win.

If you continue to make this personal, I will just leave so you can abuse the next player in this slot. The fact that Jingle even had to go out of his way to try and accommodate your abusive ass is far more than you deserve. Trust me when I say that if you continue to ruin this game for people, I will make it my personal mission to rid the site of you.

Real talk.

ETL

Who was the first one to threaten to make things personal again and no one actually said anything back to them?

[Ouroboros]

If your idea of ruining the game is pushing scum to a lynch correctly then we'll just never agree, for the record. I did little to make anything between myself/ETL/Jingle personal.
I just don't townread them and refuse to have them leading this town in any way shape or form and would refuse to have them do so even if they were confirmed town at this point.

[Ouroboros]

Bloodbath doesn't indicate personal conflict? I at no point instigated any personal conflict on D1: do you agree or disagree.

If you disagree, do you care to find it?

[Ouroboros]

I would get my fix of mafia from spectating if I didn't need 1-1 communication to solve games.

:shrug:

[Ouroboros]

Hold up because this is a lot more important to me than any flip

do you agree that I was not actually instigating personal conflict with anyone on D1?

[Ouroboros]

If I don't contest them then Ventriloquist doesn't get lynched. I have to lynch scum. I never attacked ETL or Jingle personally, what else should I have done?

[Ouroboros]

What if I'm better at yelling to the point that I feel like I'm literally playing against my wincondition when I try to make cases?

Isn't 'I will do my best to keep this peaceful but if you are actually going to fight me I will have the shouting match and I will win' the best compromise between game enjoyment and wincon?

[Ouroboros]

What if you let me decide the lynches but you talked to me about the people that you were scumreading?
I am uncertain on the lynch for the day I have asked for input repeatedly.

Who are your scumreads and stuff?

[Ouroboros]

I think that if I have a super certain scumread on someone it supercedes everything else. My issue isn't wanting my own personal thoughts to take precedence it's that I don't want anyone else to be able to control town in the same way that I can control town because it scares me and with my scum game I should be justified in being so. I have repeatedly called for input on why Wilky was town, the input on why he was town was pretty bad, Jingle admitted that everything he said was bunk and it was mostly because he was concerned that they were a power role.

I shot down the input I did or it seemed to you that way because it was given in a contest control of town way as opposed to a giving information way.
I don't know what you want I agree with you that wilky is scum I think tchill is scummy but my issue is that I think most of the time only 1/2 of Tchill/Wilky is scum based on associatives

I am terrified and paranoid town who is always scared that scum are going to wrest control of town and force bad mislynches or that if I ever let go of the reins I'll end up getting shitlynched.
I do have a super high opinion of myself when I feel very strongly but most of the time including now I am rather uncertain and if I can get input that isn't attacking me or calling me scum I can use it.

But a lot of that unwillingness to let go is because I can never trust the game to townread me. If I could trust the game to townread me I'd be able to play mafia a lot differently.

[Ouroboros]

Like when I have strong reads I'm bad at selling it to people. When other people have strong reads they're generally a lot better at selling it to me. I want to be trusted to make the call on what to go with sort of.
Particularly when I lead on scum D1. Though with Vent i always knew it was a scumread that no one would agree with.

[Ouroboros]

UNVOTE:

Ok. Can you do me a favour and bring up again anything that you think I didn't give you a fair hearing on?

[Ouroboros]

Okay maybe I did a bad job of explaining this.

I think that GIF, knowing that he has a mod meta of multiple millers and knowing that at least one person in the game is going to know that, chose to gave scum a fakeclaim that was 'town miller x' on the principle that GIF felt like it was reasonable to give scum a fake claim of miller in a game with another miller because mod meta gives them a level of protection that wouldn't ordinarily be there.

I think that scum saw that claim, knew they had that fakeclaim, went wtf is this shit, dug through GIF's meta and figured out that there was a history of multiple metas, and chose to have Wilky claim miller with the intent of having me or someone else step in to prevent the actual counterclaim battle: and Wilky's stepping in not immediately saying I HAVE A GUILTY ON DAVESAZ but asking what the name of the miller is corroborates that.

That's what happened if Wilky is scum I think. I do not think it's at all implausible.

Also, with the Body Swapper thing, I think that whatever scum role had the fakeclaim of miller x would simply claim miller x and I don't understand why you think the body swapper changes anything.

[Ouroboros]

I don't think it's -explicitly- more likely in the sense that you're thinking.
I don't think there's a single step of that process that is not the natural progression of how GIF might design his fakeclaims or how scum would interpret that fakeclaim with davesaz's claim
for that reason I think him claiming miller is not alignment indicative.

outside of the sole fact of claiming it, I think the manner that he did it belied him knowing that Davesaz was town, I think that his 'MWNN is scum and if they're scum then Ventriloquist is scum too', I specifically think the fact that he called MWNN out for a scumbuddy associative with Ventriloquist without ever expressing support for the Ventriloquist wagon was scummy, and there's lots of small tonal things that make me feel sure he's scum. He's also scumhunted very sparingly this game.

I think this is very commonly the way that scum!Wilky with a miller fakeclaim plays this game. I think the odds of him being town aren't literally 0 percent, but I think they're pretty damn low.

[Ouroboros]

outside of the sole fact of claiming it, I think the manner that he did it belied him knowing that Davesaz was town, I think that his 'MWNN is scum and if they're scum then Ventriloquist is scum too', I specifically think the fact that he called MWNN out for a scumbuddy associative with Ventriloquist without ever expressing support for the Ventriloquist wagon was scummy, and there's lots of small tonal things that make me feel sure he's scum. He's also scumhunted very sparingly this game.

How much of this is outguessing the mod?

I think that locking him town is trying to outguess the mod. I think that saying okay the miller claim itself is NAI and let's judge him by what he's actually done is the opposite.

[Ouroboros]

I said that because the general consensus was 'miller never gets made as a claim by scum' so I was specifically refuting that argument. Maybe my case for why Wilky was scum was buried but I definitely made it. Hold on.

[Ouroboros]

So everything in the initial Wilky push from me still stands: the approach to Davesaz's claim was bad.

There's also his later day which is absolutely horrible knowing that MWNN is town, he thought MWNN/Ventriloquist were likely scumpartners but he was only willing to vote MWNN and then SR Vent if MWNN flipped scum. The scum strategy at that point seemed to be to lynch MWNN based on Vent's actions so that lines up and then the point at EOD where he eventually decides to jump to Ventriloquist when it's inevitable feels pretty bad

fwiw I dislike your jump off but my feelings on your slot are mixed because there's several points in the game that I townread. no strong read one way or the other atm

Wilky hard pushes MWNN,

using my logic for why MWNN and Ventriloquist are connected to help push MWNN

, but never gives a read or talks to Ventriloquist at all until the lynch is inevitable where he lazy hops on.

So lynching scum is bad for town? Ank has absolutely collapsed under a slight bit of pressure here.

VOTE: vent

L-1

Also even when he's voting Ventriloquist he's trying to setup a future mislynch.

VOTE: Wilky

This was my original Wilky vote, btw.

[Ouroboros]

Regardless you're misunderstanding the point.
The miller claim if anything points towards him being town, which you've been trying to shot down, not the act of explicitly being miller but motive, your entire motive boils down to a prerrogative that GIF did something you cant confirm he did, and that the scumteam did something you cant confirm they did either, which is circumstantial evidence at best, just a possibility.

You could say this about anything, whether he's town or scum. You'd have to talk about GIF doing something you can't confirm he did as scum as well.
I think it's more likely that what I say happened happened than him being a miller because he's ungodly scummy and because my gut says that miller fakeclaim is more likely than 2 millesr here.

I also think you're badly overestimating how complex the order of operations for this to be a scum claim is.

[Ouroboros]

There's a lot of assumptions required but none of the assumptions are particularly challenging assumptions to make fmpov.

Well why do i even bother, you're just gonna keep arguing that your opinion is the only valid one anyway.
It's the same sort of thing that gets people mislynched... because people dont operate in the way people's perception of "town" is?
And then when mistakes are made.
It's always the lynchee's fault.
Guess nothing ever changes, i dunno why i hoped it someday would.

I don't want to make you have an existential crisis here. I do feel like I'm generally better at predicting how scum would react to a miller fakeclaim in that situation but meh.
I also think that callig Ventriloquist scum when necessary for the purpose of making MWNN look worse for it while never putting Ventriloquist as a potential lynch unless MWNN flips scum is

like

NOT based on people's perceptions of town. it's strictly scummy. I think of all people in this game I probably go farthest out of my way to understand how individuals work and how people operate.
I was the one trying to encourage you to understand how I operate.

Let's talk a couple reads. Wilky claimed a role (modifier?) and soft claimed a flavor which implies something that is potentially beneficial to town. With the understanding that safe/fake claims could exist, I'd be surprised if there isn't some kind of investigative for either role, flavor, or both, so why not let results sort the slot? Sure, I totally get that millers and lylo don't get along unless they're obvtowning, but tell me how this slot is a priority to push right now. I think it's more likely town than scum, and good town strategy also leans in the direction of letting it go for now.

I strongly disagree that good town strategy leans in the direction of finding scum and then not lynching scum.
I am also incredibly concerned that he walks to endgame in a way that no other slot I think is likely to be scum worries me.

One of the reasons people like me get paranoid is that you don't let go. The most dangerous scum is the one that takes control (which you just got through saying). If you're town, you are making yourself the kind of town that people can't trust. Yeah, you were right about Vent but it proves nothing. You aren't conftown and I don't think you should act like you are. You have one voice and one vote, and if you get manipulative it's just natural for people to get worried about that. Be persuasive with evidence, not by comparing size, because size doesn't matter.

People would get worried if I wasn't strongarming town, I just would have less powerful tools to combat people getting worried about me.

[Ouroboros]

Well why do i even bother, you're just gonna keep arguing that your opinion is the only valid one anyway.

In this case yes I do believe that my opinion here is more valid than yours. But not because I didn't listen to alternative viewpoints.

[Ouroboros]

Also I don't think it's at all implausible that one scum role actually has the miller modifier and that specific role they had already decided he was taking. But, yes.

[Ouroboros]

What if I'm right on Wilky though, Kaede?

[Ouroboros]

Beecause I think the odds of it being scum are significantly higher than the odds of anyone else in particular being scum.

[Ouroboros]

I'd prefer not to just out the potential role that the flavor implies, but at least two people here know (ETL being the other). This is where you respect the knowledge of your fellow town.

And what happens when he's scum and ends up walking to endgame because I wasn't strong willed enough to nip this in the bud here? also HI ANKAMIUS!

[Ouroboros]

Long-ish post. I make no apologies for that.

The whole beef between the hydra's is tedious, unnecessary and quite frankly a silly argument. Can that stop now before this game reaches a pretty toxic state and becomes unfun for everyone.

Yeah I could get on board with a Vent wagon too

Is it not possible Tchill has a jester role of some sort? Not suggesting an insta win but I don't see how his claim could be helpful to town otherwise.

It wouldn't surprise me if Wilky has done research and is relying on the miller claim because he realises the host has done this before, especially since he chose to highlight that it wasn't far fetched for there to be 2 millers again. As Alchemist said though, this is relying on some pretty niche assumptions so I'm not buying it just yet.

Very suspicious post

Almost forgot, might as well elaborate on why I find this post very suspicious, because why not

He uses some rather

absurd

leaps in logic in two separate cases to paint a narrative picture about these two players, deliberately ignoring Occam's Razor in favor of stirring up WIFOM.

What is more likely? That TChill is running a Jester gambit? Or that TChill is fakeclaiming? TChill's was by far the least believable claim so far, and the most awkward (considering Kaede is mod-confirmed). By bringing up some a longshot possiblity, Vent is indirectly mounting a soft defense of TChill.

Simultaneously, he attempts to cast suspicion on Wilky with a similarly absurd leap. What's more likely? That Wilky is claiming Miller truthfully in a game run by a mod who apparently has a habit of these kinds of setup quirks? Or that Wilky is deliberately playing off mod meta to mount a roundabout fakeclaim gambit, with a claim that is by its nature instantly considered suspect by default?

I don't like that whatsoever. And after we get the VC I might consider switching my vote right now.

Ugh, I can't fully remember why I quoted this post now but I agree with what Wraith is saying here.

I'm not scum reading manwithnoname that hard right now, he seems to be scumhunting, which I don't think many scum players try to play up this early day one.

Scum players don't play up scumhunting on day 1? I disagree., I don't think the explanation for your read is a good one.

He uses some rather absurd leaps in logic in two separate cases to paint a narrative picture about these two players, deliberately ignoring Occam's Razor in favor of stirring up WIFOM.

What is more likely? That TChill is running a Jester gambit? Or that TChill is fakeclaiming? TChill's was by far the least believable claim so far, and the most awkward (considering Kaede is mod-confirmed). By bringing up some a longshot possiblity, Vent is indirectly mounting a soft defense of TChill.

Absurd leaps in logic aren't more likely to come from scum than town. If anything it's the opposite. While you may be correct, I don't think you make a good point here. Town is allowed to soft defend people too, by the way.

Agree with the first part why wouldn't scum give the impression of scumhunting early on?

Can you elaborate on the next part? Why is absurd leaps in logic more likely to come from town?

RC

All I really want to know in light of that is how much weight you put behind the points on him you've already stated.

I might be willing to go back to sheeping, but I want to be sure that it's worth not gunning for a slot that I think is highly likely to flip scum.

If you think that MWNN is scum it should at the very least intrigue you that MWNN followed me on several votes but then got cold feet and waffled when I tried to vote Ventriloquist.

This is interesting.

I got tired of following a town read rather than pursuing my own reads, especially when the Ventriloquist read came down to "He's inactive".

Just because you're obvtown, doesn't mean you are always right, RC. You should have learned that by now.

This is a bad reply.

Like: if you agree with me that Ventriloquist is doing nothing and needs to start doing something, shouldn't you at the very least be enthusiastic about wagoning him to force him to do something?
You're also voting another person on your another blip on the radar list, so idk.

Ankamius is several percentage points above rand and I totally agree with the read that Hebi has so idk what your issue is Dunn.

Again this is interesting, so mwnn sheeped you up until ventriloquist, then backed off saying he wasn't a blip on his radar whilst voting someone else he said the same thing about? I'm too lazy to check if this happened that way but I will check it over the weekend.

I agree Ventriloquist needs to start posting, that being said, I think Realmen's posting has been to the point where he is just avoiding posting anything that can be AI. The last time I voted off of someone that was doing that, I got burned, that's why I am pushing Realmen.

Ventriloquist has enough votes without me to pressure him into voting, anyway.

Like, fuck, this is a large anyway, if I were scum with Ventriloquist, why wouldn't I vote him for the town cred anyway?

Ahh good ole deflection "yes my scumbuddy isn't playing stellar but look at this other player here..."

I can understand the reaction to my posting, by the way. I'm just going to have to be better going forward.

I still think Realmen is the best vote at this point in time. Ventriloquist can be on notice, but Realmen has actually been scummy (I will admit again, amusing) but scummy, overall.

I hate posts like this, the whole I can understand why you feel i'm scum but promise me i'm just not playing great just feels so scummy and is also a subtle AtE.

if i considered sk, i said 14 v 3 v 1, but i doubt sk - 2 millers and hider in closed game with 2 KPN (

as you see, i don't consider either of them gambiting scum in this case - i doubt scum would risk such gambit, if there was only 3 of them)

As to why i doubt 5 maf, there's general rule for numbers in game - town = 3xscum + 1, closest number is 13 v 4, adding 5th scum in closed game requires them to be very weak and town godlike.

As to games with similar numbers - Beneath the Mask was 16 v 5, Divergent was 15 v 4 v 1 and we barely won, Kingdom Hearts was 13 v 4

So when someone gives unrealistic number, i wonder if they have no idea about setups or are scum trying fake townslip

Who are the two players you are referring to in the bolded part?

The whole fake townslip over numbers is a bullshit argument if I have ever seen one. I mean who said there isn't a 5 man scum team? Just because it's slightly out from the norm doesn't mean it might not be the case. I also get a feeling your posting from a perspective that 100% knows the size of the scum team which doesn't go in your favour for my reads.

As for TRs, i never give those, unless someone do or say something that makes them locktown in my eyes, otherwise all my TRs are subject to change

And your scum reads aren't subject to change?

Why hide that information? I think anyone's TRs are always subject to change unless they are mod confirmed, yet you dont see them hiding them.

Then what point of posting townreads, if you going change them later on? If anyone want my TRs, they can just assume people i'm not scumreading are my townreads atm

Same as above there's not a possibility your scum reads will change later?

So, oldtimers, who can confirm that in past it was norm 5 scum in 18p closed games?

Does it really fucking matter? This might be the worst case of shit flinging I have ever seen in a mafia game.

Fine, whatever.

VOTE: Ventriloquist

I don't like being a leader anyway

Wait? Wut? Where did this come from? Weren't you against the vent wagon before now?

he was awkward and scummy tonally

Ick.

I hate tone reads. They're basically like gut reads and a lynch-bait thing to have as the foundation of your scum read on someone.

I don't have a huge amount of scumreads so far this game. One of wilky and tchill is probably scum, MWNN is scummy too and probably more so than wilky at this point. Unsure what to make of the impossibear and jungle thing.

So...? Let me summarize this so that I can understand it....

Wilky is probs scum cause of awkward and "scummy" tone, but TChill might be scum too! But MWNN is scummier than Wilky (and probably TChill?), but I'm still vote sitting on TChill all the

way from

PAGE ONE RVS

!

And then, there's this...

for what it's worth this probably means tchill and mwnn aren't both scum.

Ghost

QFT. I agree with everything in that quote.

Don't you have a problem with the fact that Wilky called MWNN out for an associative that specifically implied Ventriloquist as partner but only put Ventriloquist as a potential lynch if Town!MWNN flipped scum?

And what happens if he does indeed flip some sort of powerful town PR?

I believe that right now the cost benefit of letting him go * the odds of him being scum vs cost benefit of letting him go * him being town PR are heavily weighted towards just lynching him.

[Ouroboros]

if you don't understand my rationale for why GIF would have scum miller as a fakeclaim and why scum would claim it enough to be willing to vote them now, why should I expect you to understand it / be willing to vote them later?

Particularly given that you, Davesaz, said you thought they were more town than scum which is basically an unpalatable view based on their play so far but I digress

You're assuming that I won't lynch the other miller claim. You're not the only game solver in town.

Meanwhile, how about tchill, care to explain why my scumread is wrong or somehow inferior to yours?

I had to fight tooth and nail to get scum lynched yesterday: why shouldn't I be concerned that scum won't be caught if I don't do it myself?
What even IS your scumread on Tchill?

[Ouroboros]

I

know

I know something that other people don't know about the way GIF's mind works and how scumteams would deal with a miller fakeclaim and I've failed to communicate it to people for some reason. The only way to get the game to act off of that information is to do it myself. I do not think that I 'should' fail to capitalize on that in the sense that you do. You say there's other solvers but with Ventriloquist I was 100% certain the scumtells I saw were ones that only I understood: in this case it's beginning to lean towards me having information that other people don't.

[Ouroboros]

Short of the entire living playerlist agreeing to lynch him no matter what at a future game flavor overrides it isn't good enough for me

[Ouroboros]

Fine.

I'll take the day off.

VOTE: Tchill13

Iirc this is Anony Lynch of choice and I agree with it to an extent even if I'd rather end up wagoning like verylazy

[Ouroboros]

If wilky is alive to day 5 for whatever reason you should autolynch him

I'm scumreading Kokichi off of meta so ? at that

[Ouroboros]

Kokichi was obvscum in necromancer

I don't think he's like a top tier scum player but that was his worst performance that I've ever seen. Also that attempt to ql Nancy Drew was shit so ppl should feel bad.

[Ouroboros]

See: playerlist that tried to Lynch Nancy on page 3 when she was obvtowning due to her overreaction to Maj game

[Ouroboros]

the risk of town him being hammered. I'm also highly averse to his slot being L-1 because a final once over of interactions between vent/him makes me sure he's town

Locktown or setup unavailable:
Ouroboros
Wilky
RMOJ
Impossibear
Kaede
Ramcius
Ankamius
Davesaz
Alchemist21

Maria:
Maria

meh:
Dunnstral
ProjectMatt/Nero

leaving:
Tchill
Verylazy
Wraith
Hebi

[Ouroboros]

except here's the thing about that leftover pool

Verylazy supported tchill lynch at one point (but NOT exclusionary of scumpartners)
Wraith supports tchill lynch to the point of being probably NOT scumpartners
Hebi sure has kinda svs initiative

There's also Dunn/Tchill being 1/2

so unless it's like
Tchill/Verylazy/Hebi specifically there's fewer setups where Tchill makes sense.

tbh, i don't see any reason keep this q on me, when RC agreed to lynch Tchill

UNVOTE:

if anyone wonder what i just did - Impo is in second place on my wagon now

I'm giving our vote to Anony and that's where she expressed the most interest in voting.

[Ouroboros]

I mean the slot probably shouldn't go to endgame so it's like fine ish at least information wise but I do feel like there's better bang for buck on Kokichi.

[Ouroboros]

greatly prefer it as a quest vote though.

[Ouroboros]

I think I would prefer Ouroboros not to be voting before us though as there was the declaration of intent to sabotage the quest, so I'd like to avoid potentially losing our position in third. Can we arrange that?

Okay.

What do you need me to do?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

K you don't want us on the wagon

VOTE: Kokichi

we'll vote scum then.

[Ouroboros]

What if RC was a human being as opposed to whatever you characterize him sd?

[Ouroboros]

What if Tyler the person just wanted to be able to have excellent reads without people holding his scum game against him?

[Ouroboros]

What if rather than the perceived dominance over town I just wanted to win as much of the time as possible to show that this is something in capable of being!

[Ouroboros]

Go diaf Kokichi

[Ouroboros]

If you want to abstract my identity indefinitely you end up with no answers.

[Ouroboros]

Okay so I think I have a 90%+ scumread on someone who will go unnamed for now after some space and review

Hint it's not on the mark

I'll come back and do stuff in the morning.

[Ouroboros]

I think this game has 1 deepwolf

[Ouroboros]

Ok we might be solved here.

[Ouroboros]

Wraith and Dunn are 2/3 remaining scum

Undecided on third, leaning towards it being you

[Ouroboros]

VOTE: Wraith

This the shit I don't like.

[Ouroboros]

I said I wouldn't strong arm shit today so I'll leave you to your mislynch of Tchill. Wraith and Dunn die the next two days though.

[Ouroboros]

I am ouroboros / my hydra so no, not me.

Deep wolf contenders are like wilky, rmoj, bear

[Ouroboros]

But lynch order for me would be you third and start worrying about deep wolves if the game isn't over.

[Ouroboros]

It's barely 6 in the morning and I can't remember where RC put our vote.



Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Can someone clarify this scum!OTM? All I got from it was OTM is apparently fake and scum and that was it. Am I missing something? Which of OTM's posts are coming off as fake?

@Ank & Wilky

- Care to explain why both of you are saying one thing ("I think OTM is scum," in some form or another), but when it comes to your voting,

you're not actually supporting your scum read/lynch pool

on OTM e.g. Ank's voting Kokichi and Wilky's voting Ramcius?

I understand why Kokichi's not voting for someone he reads as fake/scum - the quest thing -, so what's your reasoning for being off a wagon you scum read?

Spoiler: Posts that indicate support for Scum!OTM or just being okay with a OTM lynch

Yeah, I can support an OTM lynch.

This is true btw, OTM and I know each other.

Still more likely scum than not, but I'll need more time to sort for sure now I think.

I'm not liking OTM since he has joined, his push on kokichi makes no sense at all, the lack of understanding about a scum no kill seems like someone with information feigning ignorance and the reads he posted seem fake.

2.05

wilky (2):

MariaR, Tchill13

Ramcius (3):

wilky

, Dunnstral, projectmatt

Tchill13 (5):

Wraith, Kaede Akamatsu, Impossibear, Kokichi Oma, REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE

Kokichi Oma (2):

Ankamius

OnTheMark

Wraith (1):

Ouroboros

Not Voting:

Alchemist21, davesaz, Ramcius

With

16

alive,

9

to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2018-05-27 22:26:54)

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

@Ank - And yet you're still not voting for someone you scum read.

No matter how serious, or unserious, you're treating this game, it's very little effort to look at the most recent VC and think, "Oops. I thought I was voting my scum read/I forgot where my vote was. I should fix that," and then vote said scum read.

Ghost

Pedit - @OTM - Clarify?

[Ouroboros]

@OTM

I'm giving the Bear hydra the benefit of the doubt on their vigilante claim/shot on MWNN just because of two factors: one, how many people scum read/scrutinized MWNN and two, the fact that there are better options for the scum NK than a slot that was getting a lot of heat (like the IC for instance or even our slot).

Can't remember if this was asked, but if Bear was scum, what would be their benefit for shooting town!MWNN (unless they were PR hunting) who was getting scrutinized? Unless scum!Bear was shooting for PR purposes, why would scum eliminate a future D2 wagon that had support behind it?

Back to your actual question:

I'd say scum would shoot Bear over us if they didn't want Bear to rethink their reads and push better ones.

Pedit - @Ank

You're probably being sarcastic in 2153, but I think this dissonance is worth pursuing.

VOTE: Ankamius

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Because they're bad.

If you all are going to throw shade at me I'm strongarming a wraith Lynch.

[Ouroboros]

No Kaede Ramcius is way townie than Kokichi

[Ouroboros]

Btw it's shit like this that makes me play like I do as town

I let go of the reins for one real life day and people are already posturing around scumreads on me.

[Ouroboros]

OTM you call me scum again you die your slot is awful.

And yeah we're killing wraith today, with the reads people are throwing around I don't trust town to have learned anything from Tchill townflip.

I play like that as scum because you force me to Kaede. My playstyle is one of necessity.

[Ouroboros]

OTM you said you disagreed with my scumreads but agreed with my townreads and said that made me scum in the same game where several people yesterday got mad at me for strongarming a non universal scumread who flipped town when we agreed on townreads.

This town isn't good enough for universal scumreads to be scum.

Yes I do have something to be scared about I'm scared that scum will get a mislynch on me for no reason whatsoever besides my username and the advantage and PoE I've worked so hard to build will get ignored

[Ouroboros]

Yes I do have something to be scared about I'm scared that scum will get a mislynch on me for no reason whatsoever besides my username and the advantage and PoE I've worked so hard to build will get ignored

If that's what you're scared about, then why are you using threats, you know how that ended last time.

I can't play the way you want me to because you don't let me play the way you want me to.

I will do my best to win this game for town and if I get lynched in the process I'll do the same thing next game and just avoid people who try to policy Lynch me.

[Ouroboros]

Like in a world where

1) my scumread on vent was met with questions instead of hard discrediting and people calling me bad for having an unpopular read

2) I was able to establish myself as town by being towny as opposed to making it impossible to Lynch me through brute force.

3) Town had better reads, but this is more of a wishlist than a criticism

I would be able to be the version of me that you want to see.

You instead choose to make my life impossible when I'm nice and policy Lynch me when I'm not which basically amounts to you don't want me to have fun or make an impact as either alignment.

Sure, policy Lynch me because I'm taking control of town here but I'm doing because I have to not because I want to.

@OTM I refuse to make NKA based on that assumption when there's so many possibilities

[Ouroboros]

Protip I literally never shoot your slot as scum.

[Ouroboros]

It's not.

My scum play is more advanced than your rationale.

I've never ever been polciy/bop lynched as scum.

[Ouroboros]

Gimme my wraith Lynch thanks.

[Ouroboros]

I'm playing settlers of Catan drinking game in no condition to respond and you should know this is NAI at worst. Just leave me alone.

[Ouroboros]

That's for peasants

We drink every time you incorrectly guess what number comes up

[Ouroboros]

Remember when you thought vent was town

[Ouroboros]

I do for one

[Ouroboros]

Like I'm not even lynching davesaz today

Ftr I don't think hebi slot should be modkilled.

Wraith dies for the glory ofy ego

Also Tchill is town bbycakes

[Ouroboros]

The fact that I'm in contention for a Lynch

Says something very ugly about how MS systematically treats people who are good at scum

[Ouroboros]

I mean it's not just MS

MU has a meta of literally systematically policy lynching good scum player to a point MS would never compare to.

But this game is a fucking insult.

People wonder why my town game supposedly fell off when I got the scummy. It had nothing to do with my town game and everything to do with how people saw me.

Wraith is scum. But you can policy Lynch me for being good of you prefer.

[Ouroboros]

How the fuck do I get burden of proficiencies on that flip of all flip?

[Ouroboros]

Like I have an 100% rate of people I wagoned flipping scum.

How am I supposed to be more proficient than perfect?

[Ouroboros]

VOTE: wraith

[Ouroboros]

You make me hate mafia

[Ouroboros]

Ank you know I love you shush.

[Ouroboros]

Whoa the D man voted with me.

I'm not one to look a gift horse in the mouth but talk to me about that?

[Ouroboros]

Do we have to be to think that Wraith is scum?

[Ouroboros]

Like I think there's a.toen protective role regardless of your role.

Could Davesaz be scum? Fuck yeah. But I'm busy lynching scum off of play rather than claims so.

[Ouroboros]

No

I simply don't see your claim as a 1-1 guilty

I think a town protective role probably exists and your rb may have nothing to do with the missed kill and I have a confident scumflip that I want.

[Ouroboros]

Bro thinking there's a protective doesn't make me scum and calling me scum makes me sad.

[Ouroboros]

Like

I'm not playing the same game as you OTM / Kaede.

Stop expecting me too

@OTMs most recent because it's not how I play.
You should know thid but /shrug

And no it's not OTM.

[Ouroboros]

I think wraith is scum more often than Davesaz

Ergo I am voting Wraith.

Easy. Regardless of your juvenile desire to call me scum over my approaching this game differently than you do.

[Ouroboros]

I think wraith is scum more often than Davesaz

Ergo I am voting Wraith.

Easy. Regardless of your juvenile desire to call me scum over my approaching this game differently than you do.

It’s not about different approach.

If you still think Wraith is scum make your case tomorrow.

That is of course if Dave is town. If Dave is scum for reasons already discussed you’re next.

Fuck you if you think you have the right to try to lunch me

[Ouroboros]

Like actually who the fuck are you replacing in and pulling this shit why can't I play a game

[Ouroboros]

I'm out do what you want

I can't care about plsyibn mafia with people like you all.

[Ouroboros]

VOTE: otm

[Ouroboros]

You don't want to win you want to score moral points on me.

Try to score.them.asshole.

[Ouroboros]

.|.

[Ouroboros]

No

[Ouroboros]

I'm putting myself in front of daveax.

Want to vote him, vote me instead.

[Ouroboros]

Out of my face Mathblade

[Ouroboros]

No. I am who I am.

[Ouroboros]

I'm putting myself in front of daveax.

Want to vote him, vote me instead.

No, i'll just vote dave, thx

For what Kaede

Show you're better than me?

[Ouroboros]

Pls can all the town players who think their reads are better than mine line up how many of you are there!

[Ouroboros]

Where's Ghost? I'm still waiting on the dissonance thing

Sup.

Can I get an answer as to why you were scum reading OTM but not voting for him (page 87 for reference)?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Davesaz vote Wraith with me, he will flip scum.

[Ouroboros]

OK if this is going to be a game of who can yell the loudest then I can yell a lot louder than you mathblade.
You say popularity contest we say people don't listen to you because your reads are proven to be mediocre.

I am going to come back either later today or tomorrow and make a wraith case and then we'll lynch him and probably policy lynch OTM tomorrow so I can get a moment's peace.

[Ouroboros]

I think that Tchill is going to be spewed town by multiple scumflips. With Hebi locktown there's basically zero scumteams that have him scum anymore.

You all can clusterfuck him when I'm gone, I led on scum yesterday and I want to lead on scum again today.

[Ouroboros]

Like holy fuck I lynched scum yesterday what is wrong with you

[Ouroboros]

how am I supposed to play the game when people are actively trying to suppress my ability to influence the game?

why should I even play this game?

[Ouroboros]

@Dave

- Can you give me a reads list or a lynch pool? Thanks.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

>this person lynched scum D1
>this person is objectively the best scumhunter currently alive
>let's outright ignore his preferred lynches and decide whether he's scum or not based on flips that aren't even tangentially related to his alignment

why don't you just policy lynch me and sheep my scumreads if this is how we have to play the game?

[Ouroboros]

I respond badly to crappy shit and I was and remain on the receiving end of a lot of crappy shit.

[Ouroboros]

I mean I clearly am the best scumhunter in this lobby.
Wraith is also at this point a scumread I am more certain of than I was of Ventriloquist at any point.

If you think that I'm bussing why don't you help me bus?

[Ouroboros]

No, I want wraith dead who flips scum.
Presuming that Wraith does in fact flip scum, I am at worst setting up another buddy to die while not really doing anything to take away the impetus towards lynching Davesaz later this game.

[Ouroboros]

Oh, and Wraith does flip scum. If I hadn't mentioned that already.

Yeah he doesn’t.

Wraith I have a hard townread on.

And you aren’t setting up another buddy. You’re saving Dave.

We are doing Dave and if Dave flips green we do Wraith.

You go with evidence first. Then reads. It’s how Mafia works.

My reads > your circumstantial evidence and I wouldn't give a fuck about saving Dave if we were scumbuddies.

[Ouroboros]

Hint: town has at least one protective role and there's some obvious saves in this game.

[Ouroboros]

Hint: town has at least one protective role and there's some obvious saves in this game.

What makes you so sure of that.

truthfully I think there is literally a 0% chance that scum did not attempt to kill me

Like do you think we have a roleblocker, a doctor and a bulletproof vig?

i don't believe the bulletproof vig claim because it implies scum have a strongman and if they did they'd have used it.
sorry to out them if they're town claiming bulletproof for protective purposes but I'd rather they die than I do so.

[Ouroboros]

And I mean: I wouldn't bring Davesaz to endgame if no other explanation comes up. But there's better lynches for today and later in the game we'll get more info about what the setup looks like and why the scum kill might not have happened.
Making a hasty decision on lynching him today when it's possible there's a town JK or doc or both or some other combinations of kill prevention and we don't know that today is poorly considered at best.

[Ouroboros]

Scum doctor doesn't explain the lack of a nightkill and I think it's more likely that scum's role is jailkeeper with a town doctor anyway

[Ouroboros]

is this how every game with you is going to go because if so I'd like to go back to you not replacing into games with me. the way you're treating my slot makes this game zero fun for me.

[Ouroboros]

all of the above by kaede is correct and later in the game we'll have a much clearer picture of whether it had to be the roleblock or whether there's a likely alternative explanation.

[Ouroboros]

is this how every game with you is going to go because if so I'd like to go back to you not replacing into games with me. the way you're treating my slot makes this game zero fun for me.

If you were town you’d be lynching Dave with me.

No! I am not! Why do you think that you know what I would do as town or scum! It's a profoundly irrational position to have! If you knew what I'd do in situations then you would be able to read me!

[Ouroboros]

You do not know how to extrapolate town power roles from whatever you have!

[Ouroboros]

Like I know you're all very sweet people but you're killing me here.

Please let me 1v1 wraith, lynch us and get me out of the game if I'm wrong.

[Ouroboros]

Without claiming it’s hard to say that and I am trying to make sure ETL and those with more influence move onto the next day to lynch RC.

what if I'm town and you're planning all of your little games around trying to fuck with someone who is town and tired of getting fucked with because of their scumgame when town?

[Ouroboros]

Anyway for everyone's sanities let's do this.
Impossibear hammers Wraith, if I'm wrong then vig us and get us out of the game or lynch us tomorrow if you'd prefer.
I can't play this game like this. I have Wraith to still go on because I had that read on before but it's literally impossible to play mafia when everyone's goal is to isolate me as much as possible.

If you’re town you’re so antitown you’re town in name only.

You say you want to 1v1 Wraith yet provide no reasons.

I have damn near close to an airtight case here and you’re torpedoing it.

I roleblocked someone and no nightkill -> AIRTIGHT.

[Ouroboros]

a i r t i g h t

[Ouroboros]

Like you are being irrational in a way that you are always irrational and there's nothing I can say to you to convince you otherwise so I'm simply not going to try to.
Just kill Wraith today and go back to accusing me of bussing my whole scumteam or just vig us and get us out of the game so that you can lose the game on your own reads.

[Ouroboros]

If I don't force the 1v1

Kaede
Davesaz
OTM

And more have all basically said that town should be ignoring me because that's apparently the way to deal with my scum game. Pretend that I'm not there and Lynch me later in the game after ignoring my reads until then. What else should I do Ankamius when people are doing their best to prevent me from being able to influence the game like a normal player?

If people were willing to treat me like a normal player then I'd be able to play the game like one but since they aren't and I refuse to just not play the game at all like everyone seems to want, I have to do this.

[Ouroboros]

Mark

You understand that your case on Dave isn't very good, right?

Disregard onthemark, acquire wraith lynch

[Ouroboros]

influence the game like a normal player?

This is not what a normal player does.

It's not. But normal people don't have other people spending the entire game convincing people to outright ignore their reads because they're good at scum. So I play abnormally.

[Ouroboros]

Hmm all we're gonna get is MariaR crying for "OMG DUNN IS SO TOWNZ GUYS"
I prefer MariaR right now
VOTE: MariaR

P-Edit: I'm pretty sure you stopped being a hyperposter on all games.

Maria might be scum but can we please lynch dave.

This is possibly scum defending Wraith

[Ouroboros]

And where is that getting you today?

To a wraith Lynch hopefully

I know that you think you should be able to entirely prevent me from playing the game because being good at scum means you shouldnt be allowed to play the game as town, but that's not an option for me.

[Ouroboros]

Idk RC

I can speak for myself in saying that I don't like effectively being forced to either sheep or get entirely drowned out. I expect this mindset isn't unique to me either.

All I can suggest is specifically reaching out to townreads and trying to convince them or doing my trick of engaging my scumreads and making them build a case on themselves until town finally catch on on their own.

I'm not allowed to reach out to people though.

Didn't you read everyone who said to stop listening to me on stuff?

[Ouroboros]

I know that you think you should be able to entirely prevent me from playing the game because being good at scum means you shouldnt be allowed to play the game as town

You cant come up with a better excuse than that? you sound like a broken record.

Excuse for not allowing myself to be entirely marginalized?

I... Guess?

[Ouroboros]

Why not lynch dave and vig wraith? Everyone happy

Oh yeah wraith. I've had a scumread on that slot since D1.

Wow we could be on the same wagon this is amazing