Open 725: Jungle Republic - Day 5

[Sando]

VOTE: the worst

Stalker!

[Sando]

OK.. here's a question that's definitely going to separate the scum from the every other bum: Would you rather be locked in a room with..

1- Liz Hurley
2- Beyonce
3- Heather Graham

Note: Ladies need not respond. After all, we all

know

whom you'd rather be with.

3, how is this even a question?

[Sando]

Is anyone even trying to gamesolve? Where's that 'serious guy who gets us out of rvs'? He should be here by now lols.

Pretty sure we all decided that was N_Ms job this game...so yeah RVS till endgame I guess.

[Sando]

also do I understand correctly that the mafia does not get a kill in this game. Or is it just so "assumed" that it is not mentioned in the set up?

So assumed since the werewolf one is mentioned. At least don't see anywhere where it's mentioned that they definitively don't.

[Sando]

This sounds incredibly ingenuine. Particularly this:

"but ignoring me calling you scummy"


Anybody else feel this way?

^ok that messed up, but meh you get the idea.

I'm confused how anyone can read ducklings post and think he "ignored" being called scummy. It's why duckling responded at all and he addresses why he's getting called scummy, not sure why not addressing the specific statement is itself scummy?

Then again duckling doesn't feel like his town game. I don't know his scum-game, but this feels different from the towngames I've been in with him.

UNVOTE:

[Sando]

Also I think sando thinks I'm talking about uglyduck maybe? I'm talking about the worst. Uglyduck did respond to my points - tw's first post after mine was to vote me after udglyduck did.

This is most definitely a possibility, I'll reread with this in mind and get back to you.

[Sando]

Also I think sando thinks I'm talking about uglyduck maybe? I'm talking about the worst. Uglyduck did respond to my points - tw's first post after mine was to vote me after udglyduck did.

Ok yeah I def was, and yeah what you're saying happened.

That felt reachy af to me. I wanted to revisit it later but when I saw someone else took exception to it i was like yeah let's make a deal out of this

It wasn't "reachy af". The reaction was bad from duckling, but the reaction test was bad itself. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be looking to engage with a wallpost like that on page 3, but I also wouldn't OMGUS.

[Sando]

Will your thoughts get progressively better?


Alright. Why would you hold off on voicing your thoughts on how skitter is different until d2, from a holistic pov?

I choose to hold off bc i can. What would myreasons matter at this point?

If skitter is scum you die if you don't explain
If skitter is town you die if you don't explain it

I agree let her produce more readable content first but we should be airing this shit before EOD

Uglyduck is perfectly sane for wanting to withold at this point especially, and I wish I'd withheld my earlier comments tbh. People have reads because something has/hasn't happened in the game but 5-6 pages in is way too early to get a decent feel for any of those actions. Talking about that pre-empts it and destroys any read you might have. That said, probs best from Uglyduck to withhold any "because reasons" reads unless required or they become articulatable (it's a word now).

[Sando]

if you honestly thing OMGUS is remotely scumtelling what do you make of the fact skitter OMGUS'd my OMGUS vote?

Pretty sure I've stated in a game with you that I think OMGUS is NAI and anti-town. If not...that.

[Sando]

It's fair he doesnt want to throw his reasoning down now but withholding it to d2 is actually really bad

"really bad"? Depends on circumstances. If we repeat our last (real) game together and get 70+ pages D1 then yeah, holding it till D2 is stupid. If we quicklynch in 8 pages then it's up to him if it's better to maintain the read at the risk of death or out it.

[Sando]

^ this tho, play play wins this

Well yeah, that part is just genius.

[Sando]

PLAY PLAY FML

Day play

/pat

[Sando]

Not sure how both of you managed to miss it, especially presuming you actually went back to check if it was and decided it wasn't there

*goes back to check, again*

...

Shit

[Sando]

Scum - UD , Sando (based on 154)

You're right, we're both scum running the same gambit of pretending to misread the factional abilities.

[Sando]

Scum - UD , Sando (based on 154)

You're right, we're both scum running the same gambit of pretending to misread the factional abilities.

You could be different factional scum.

I doubt it but it's possible

Whoa whoa whoa, now I might not be the brightest spark, but there's only one "scum" faction yeah? There's them werewolves, but they're:
a) Not "scum"
b) have a night kill

So you're saying one of us might be scum pretending not to know that we don't have NK, and the other person might be a werewolf who does have an NK, also pretending they don't know scum don't have an NK...

Also we both did it by assuming that scum don't have an NK and missed the statement in the mechanics part.

I have a lot to learn in the scumhunting business it seems, you guys are something special!

[Sando]

wrt tyr

read em and weep.
before he replaced out
his slot was town (and was the LyLo mislynch)

What you talking about there fella? TYR is playing like this and therefore town? Cause that's 3 whole posts there my fella, not a lot to base a read off of my friend.

[Sando]

How have you determined that the Werewolves are not scum, Sando?

Scum is anyone anti-town in my book.

Well wolves have an NK, so your throwaway of "they could be seperate scumfactions" needs to take into account that one of them knows they don't have an NK and is pretending not to know that, and one has an NK and is pretending not to know the other faction has an NK.

I know you say it's "unlikely", but honestly, it's an incredibly odd supposition to make that to me, clearly lacks any reasonable thought to the actual validity of it, which I'm mocking.

But honestly, what do you hope to achieve with this line of questioning? You think wolves are going to be parochial about their alignment and deny their "scumminess" or something?

[Sando]

if that's what I meant that's what I would've said.......
just a reminder TYR has a bizarre posting style

Who are you reminding?

[Sando]

Sando did you role scum without me?!
that is such a NSW thing of you to do.

Stop reading games you're dead in

[Sando]

This just all went over my head. I'm going to stop talking to you now, this conversation is boring and confusing after I asked you to explain one use of a term.

Ok, so we're not talking scuminess? Cause I took your questioning to be "this could be scum I caught over 'ere", or am I wrong there?

The basic gist: I thought you were saying that me saying werewolves aren't "scum" was, in fact, scummy. I'm saying that's a silly argument

for scuminess

(even if it's a reasonable statement to make). If you'd like to say "nah bro, not scummy, just a statement" then cool. If you'd like to discuss the relative scumminess of it, however, then sure, let's step up to the plate.

[Sando]

Um. What if UD and Sando really are ignorant of the fact that mafia can't kill? I glossed over those posts and thought them NAI, because they could go either way.

Neither of us were ignorant of it, we both assumed it due to the role PMs not mentioning it, and we both missed the actual statement in the mechanics part that is totally clear.

[Sando]

True or false? The only time you would possibly read the mafia role PM and not the Werewolf PM is if you rolled Mafia.

True. I guess given your vote I can now assume you're actually talking scuminess and you've decided to step up to the plate?

So my assumption that mafia do not have an NK was based on reading their role PM and not seeing the NK, AND reading the werewolf one and seeing it mentioned. What about that says to you that I only read one of the role PMs?

[Sando]

+1 I try and not read anything except my alignment unless I have like...responsibilities.

Duckling should be aware that I read all the role PMs based on prior gameplay with me that I know he's seen The conclusive statement that mafia don't have a NK is not in the role PMs, it's in the opening mechanics post, which I didn't read thoroughly enough evidently.

[Sando]

OK, serious read.. duckling is town

So far I've pegged 3 townies with some degree of confidence: Pintu, MWNN & tw

Next..

Can you tell the rest of the class why you're reading those three town?

I have my reasoning in a zip file. Let me unzip and get back to you.

I'm putting AP as town for today, but I disagree with his blanket townreads on MWNN and tw, duckling especially.

[Sando]

Why was there any confusion then? Like any did you need to ask the question?

So what I'm taking out of this is you're running a line of questioning here without actually reading the thread, correct?

Here's what happened:
UD asks whether we've got confirmation mafia have no kill or if we're all just assuming it
Sando says "well I assumed it cause mafia role PM doesn't have it, but werewolf does"
Draynth then says "you guys are idiots, it's written really clearly"
Sando acknowledges his stupidity

That's what you're pushing against here... I never asked a question throughout, so I don't know what you're on about there.

[Sando]

=> I do find it weird that sando is defending/speaking for ud and is saying things like 'we both ...' (162 and 253)

I'm not defending UD, I'm attacking MWNN's defective line of questioning. He's running a line without taking the time to understand the context or even read what happened. Town have no motivation to do that, so it's either lazy town play or it's scum-play. He's also making a habit of asking questions that are clearly designed to scumhunt someone (me in this case) yet are followed by a swift retreat when the reasoning behind them is questioned:

Spoiler:

You could be different factional scum.

I doubt it but it's possible

Seems reasonable, except:

So you're saying one of us might be scum pretending not to know that we don't have NK, and the other person might be a werewolf who does have an NK, also pretending they don't know scum don't have an NK...

Also we both did it by assuming that scum don't have an NK and missed the statement in the mechanics part.

It just makes no sense.

How have you determined that the Werewolves are not scum, Sando?

Scum is anyone anti-town in my book.

MWNN then ignores the logical fallacy that I'm pointing out and narrows in on the word "scum".

But honestly, what do you hope to achieve with this line of questioning? You think wolves are going to be parochial about their alignment and deny their "scumminess" or something?

I ask again, what does he actually think about this is scummy, what's the scum motivation?

This just all went over my head. I'm going to stop talking to you now, this conversation is boring and confusing after I asked you to explain one use of a term.

I don't think it's a gambit to have anyone pretend not to know that they have no factional kill, I was just pointing out your flaw with the reasoning that "two scum wouldn't both do the same thing" is that there are two scum factions who may independently decide to do the same thing. That's it.

Please just speak like a normal human being from now on rather than someone who swallowed a goddamned dictionary and is trying to show off.

He backs way the hell back from the line of questioning and any suggestion of scum motivation. Also no-one pretended not to know about the factional kills, so him saying this tells me he hasn't actually read the interaction between me and UD that is the basis for all of this.

Ok, so we're not talking scuminess? Cause I took your questioning to be "this could be scum I caught over 'ere", or am I wrong there?

I pursue, cause I want him to explicitly state whether the line of questioning is scumhunting or just clarification.

I was not implying scumminess, I was asking for clarification.

Again, backs way the hell away from implying scumminess. He then votes me with no further reasoning a few ISO posts later.

There is a clear pattern here, ask a vague leading question that implies scumminess, when challenged on that, obfuscate and back away whilst denying they were ever actually trying to imply scumminess.

[Sando]

Which is it?

I'm a) leaning 60/40 badtown/scum, and b) typically have atrocious D1 scumreads (my townreads are pretty good though). Only scum are

motivated

to act in the way he has, but I'd say it's fairly good scumplay and quite a subtle art, so it's more likely to be a townie being silly imo. Then again never played with him, there's certainly people I'd 100% think this was scum from, but I don't know his play at all so I can't judge it very well yet.

what's your read on me btw?

Slight town-lean, not today's lynch. I'm curious about your style and have thoughts on it, but I'd like to see how it evolves (or remains unchanged) over the course of a day or two before making a judgement there.

(aside, nice use of 'parochial' )

Glad someone appreciated it

[Sando]

What I understand you to be saying: 'Only scum are motivated to behave the way he does, but such behavior is *such* good scumplay that like most people aren't that good at scum so it's more likely that he's just bad town instead'?

Like .... why isn't he good scum behaving in this fashion that you believe to be scum motivated? I don't super understand the conclusion that he's just bad town instead of good scum tbh.

There's a reason I italicised "motivation". Scum are motivated to do what he's doing, but town can do it inadvertently. Any in-game scumhunting (ie not meta) is deducing where Hanlon's Razor applies. I'm not sure why you think this is in any way a surprise or comparable to what MWNN is doing? I've pointed out what he's doing with careful consideration for the context, and I'm not pushing vague leading questions towards MWNN in any way. The idea that he's wavering on the scumminess is an indicator of his backing away from confrontation whilst continuing to throw shade, which is scummy, not the wavering itself. I'm confronting him head on and calling it out, not calling him scum doesn't change that fact.

Why do I think it's more likely to be town and not scum? It's early D1, which for scum means he picked me out as a target, and if he's done any read of my games (which you would if you're targeting a mislynch candidate) then he'd realise I'm going to react this way, which is drawing a hell of a lot of attention to him. It's also a technique that I used to use as town to (badly) trap people and get them lynched. If I'm using Occam's Razor (why are these guys obsessed with razors?) then just being town is a more convincing argument to me right now.

Now, it also looks to me like you're hedging from engaging with my actual post and skirting round the edges to call into question the entire argument whilst only addressing a very small fraction of the argument. Is my argument laid out against MWNN flawed and my conclusion further worrying you? Or is the argument valid and you're just confused how I got all that right and still won't call him scummy?

[Sando]

I think Sando is on to something here.

VOTE: MWNN

Please note that i am okay with the short forms of names as a vote but not an abbreviation. This is a bit confusing.

Sweet as CJ, now you get to vote for The Man.

[Sando]

=> I think that MWNN hasn't been totally understanding your posts and that he's responding to what he thinks you said, not what you actually said, and when he couldn't parse your argument he just ended the convo. I don't think that's inherently AI. I don't really have a read on him from that convo.

=> I think that you're ascribing scummy motivation to his half of the convo and framing it as being scummy, and then come to the conclusion that it's more likely than not bad town which doesn't totally match up to me.

=> The reason why I'm having a problem with this at all is that you seem to be trying to undermine his vote on you: you're describing his motivations in his half of the convo of being scummy/disingenuous. Like this seems to be a really really long-winded way of going about calling his read/vote on you bad.

a) I'm saying he didn't even read the first interaction that started this with UD, which was not hard to understand. He doesn't need to have a dictionary next to him for that post, and given it's literally what kicked this off, reading it isn't unreasonable no?

b) And again, you're just throwing shade without addressing my question, is what I'm saying somehow incorrect?

c) I mean, it is? Do you think his original read is good/bad or is this purely about my reaction? I've outlined exactly why I think it's town instead of scum, address that instead of just putting meaningless drivel out there to look busy.

Unless you actually want to address my points, about his posting being bad, scumhunting and Hanlons razor, my actual reasoning for it being town instead of scum...then this is a totally pointless conversation.

You're also literally doing what you're accusing me of doing, waffling around about what I'm doing and calling my read bad and not actually ascribing scumminess to it.

VOTE: skitter30

Happy now duckling?

[Sando]

that's a bit better

think I already owe a reread tho

Totes. I'm reading AP and CJ town, but I'm super struggling to find anyone else town and I'm reaching for any more. This has not been an easy flowing D1 for me.

[Sando]

I've never been able to form a read on N_M, how are you scumreading him?

I feel like he's always a POE pick for me.

I have a way of reading him that I am not disclosing (because if I do then I'd have absolutely no way of reading him anymore)

Basically he has not town told for me here, but has yet to scum tell for real.

QFT but him avoiding telling one way or the other is slightly scum indicative

So both of you (AP+duckling) are confident you can read him but you currently don't have enough info?

[Sando]

So both of you (AP+duckling) are confident you can read him but you currently don't have enough info?

Yes.

Copy that. Confident of a D2 read?

For anyone new to NM, he's gonna lolhammer anyone put to L-1, it's fairly amusing despite the predictability.

[Sando]

Like I get all of this. I understand why you're telling me you've come to the conclusion of bad town and why his posting is bad, and this isn't what I have a problem with. What I don't get is why you're initial post looks like a scumcase and is framing his half of the convo in a bad/scummy light when your actual argument is that he isn't scum. Or why that post was made at all if you weren't trying to scumcase him. And now that I think about it, how it was even a response to the original question that I asked: why you were speaking for UD.

I'm not waffling: I'm telling you that I think that you were scummy in how you presented your read on MWNN because it looks like you're trying to frame him in a scummy light when you aren't actually calling him scum. Like it looks to me more about trying to discredit MWNN in an attempt to distract from his vote on you / his line of questioning than actually explaining a read on him. And I find it really weird that you didn't have a problem with ceejay voting there becuase of you when you *weren't* scumcasing him.

So you're saying:
a) You understand my reasoning for bad town vs scum
b) You find it scummy that I made a case and didn't call him scum

...so you're saying I made a big deal about someone and then avoided calling him scum, as scum? Like...why? What would I be gaining there as scum? CJ picked up my case and ran with it and instead of realising I had a good mislynch target (well as scum I'd know he's at least not my faction and presumably CJ isn't buddying me as my scumpartner THAT closely), I decided to wind that back and say "nah, more likely to be town". C'mon, where's the logical scum-play here? What am I, as scum, hoping to achieve here?

I'm not waffling: I'm telling you that I think that you were scummy in how you presented your read on MWNN because it looks like you're trying to frame him in a scummy light when you aren't actually calling him scum.

You're literally doing this to me. You're not making your scumread on me clear, anyone reading our interaction in the last few pages would see that before this latest post you've never outright said I'm scummy. Lot's of "it's almost like" and "my problem is" and "feels like", without coming out and actually giving a scumpinion. And you're not voting me (or anyone, so it's not like you find someone else scummier). By your own logic, you're acting scummy here.

[Sando]

I don't know why you didn't hop on, or why you didn't cultivate the wagon by proceeding to scumread MWNN when I asked. I also don't know why you didn't protest when someone else started a wagon on someone you're bad-town-reading because of a case you wrote.

Rofl, ok, so you can't actually explain a motivation for why I'd do what I'm doing as scum, but you're pretty sure I'm scum...nice scumhunting there...

Also, my very next post after CJs vote was explaining to you that I thought it was most likely town...gee I'm soooooo sorry I didn't directly call out CJ there. I could have done exactly what you've just done, claim "forgetfulness" and drop my vote on him post CJ, instead I responded to you about how I think it's more likely town than not.

[Sando]

For everyone else, this doesn't strike me as TvT here, thoughts as outsiders?

[Sando]

And like, you still haven't protested the fact that ceejay's voting someone you think is more likely town than not based on a case that you wrote.

Why on earth would I protest it? CJ took what I posted and drew a different conclusion than me, so what? I'm clearly not very sure on my own conclusion, I said 60/40, which also just happens to be pretty much the ratio of town to scum (this was an accident, 60/40 was picked to show I'm really not sure).

I think you just weren't particularly planning on committing to a read either way cuz that wasn't the motivation of the post; you weren't trying to explain a read but rather discredit MWNN despite 'more likely than not' townreading him.

I'm STILL not committing. What about "60/40" is committing? It's the ratio we started with, it's specifically NOT committing. He also just recently didn't make my townlist (which is very short), why on earth are you trying to paint me out to be TRing him? I was putting it out there to draw attention to it for others to compare with their experiences, things like "yeah I've played with him before, he's normally a really logical guy with committed questioning" or "nah man, that's just how he is".

Why aren't you protesting CJs vote? What do you think of it given you think he's sheeping scum?

[Sando]

Oh, it's skitter 1v1ing Sando, that will take some time. Is there someone here who I can chat with?

Duckling should be awake if you don't want to chat to a 1v1er

[Sando]

I can talk to you. What do you think about the worst's case on Espeonage

Weak, and the interaction is why I'm not TRing duckling.

I also did not like Espe's posts, but for different reasons than duckling has posted. It also doesn't strike me as TvT, but then nothing this game has so...

[Sando]

You flaking aussies come here and talk to me! If you leave me alone you'll regret... You better run, you better take cover

Your dedication to this is a source of inspiration to me

[Sando]

But in a world where you had to chose a side and in one side is duckling and in the other is Espeonage, who would you chose? This is for academic purposes, since I don't think duckling vs Esp is not TvT, I'm still trying to sort that out

If I had to shoot between those two I'd shoot duckling based on him not playing to the town-meta I have of him.

Plus duck is tasty.

[Sando]

I need your word about Draynth too. I'm biased because my last finished game is with scum!Draynth on it and I don't know how town!Draynth plays. From someone who hasn't played with Draynth, what are your thoughts on him?

Never played with him, but he strikes me as a scummy lurker. His post about me and UD being scum was ill-considered and he hasn't responded to criticism of that. The lack of content gives me a lack of insight obviously, but twas him bringing up this whole thing about me and UD not reading the role PMs and opening post, so for him to subsequently stay quiet strikes me as scum setting something up for townies to kill themselves over.

[Sando]

I need your word about Draynth too. I'm biased because my last finished game is with scum!Draynth on it and I don't know how town!Draynth plays. From someone who hasn't played with Draynth, what are your thoughts on him?

Never played with him, but he strikes me as a scummy lurker. His post about me and UD being scum was ill-considered and he hasn't responded to criticism of that. The lack of content gives me a lack of insight obviously, but twas him bringing up this whole thing about me and UD not reading the role PMs and opening post, so for him to subsequently stay quiet strikes me as scum setting something up for townies to kill themselves over.

Yes yes this is exactly what I see coming from him. I'll give him a pass since this time it really could be IRL business but FoS on him definetely

I honestly thought his initial observation (it was him that prompted me to look into the opening post more closely and find the explicit statement about NKs) was a joke, and I responded accordingly I thought. He then found me and UD scummy, which as I said, makes not so much of the senses.

It's caused a bit of a shitstorm, and as town in said shitstorm it says to me it's not a very scummy shitstorm (I'd say no more than a single scum in here), and the original creator of the shitstorm has nothing further to say on it...

[Sando]

Hmmm I disagree with two things you're saying here: 1. Yeah, if you thought it was a joke and then he said you and UD both were scummy because of this, it makes no sense; but if it wasn't a joke, it's a consistent read on both of you. But being consistent is NAI at this point of the game, and not making sense is NAI too at this state; 2. Saying that HE caused the shitstorm is a little convenient coming from you, since you and UD talking about the scum could easily be scum faking a townslip (I personally don't think this is the case, but it could be).

Don't think you're disagreeing with me on (1), it was merely an observation from me, I don't draw and scumclusions about the joke part.

I'm not trying to take the focus away from me/MWNN/Skitter and my role in it, I'd like more attention on it tbh, but his post was the impetus for what happened. Sure if I go kiss his GF he's got a right to be angry, but it's a bit weird if he says "oi that's not cool mate" and then wanders off while he lets others deal with me.

Not saying I'm not kissing his GF, but it's weird that he's made a feeble "oi mate, not cool" and then left others to fight his battles.

[Sando]

Not saying I'm not kissing his GF, but it's weird that he's made a feeble "oi mate, not cool" and then left others to fight his battles.

I also think our metaphor is getting thin at this point

[Sando]

Basically I'm saying that if he misinterpreted your post that badly I'm surprised that you didn't like correct his line of thinking at any point, and that it's an indicator that you're fine with it being read as a scumcase.

I think ceejay is slightly scummy in general (the one post of NM's that I liked was him voting ceejay after a post that pinged me). I however think that him sheeping you is more on you since your post looks like it was a scumcase when it apparently wasn't meant to be read that way, and you never clarified that.

I posted my case, he voted the next post, he posted something unrelated the post after, then you posted asking me about scumread, and I posted the 60/40 the post after that.

You're talking about a total span of 5 posts, it's not like I ignored this for days like you're making out. The very next post of mine after his vote, and only 3 posts after total, I posted that I personally wasn't going in on the scumread. And yes, I felt at the time and I still feel, fine with him concluding scum from it. Just because I didn't directly point to CJ and say "hey mate, I disagree with you" is what this is all about? Seriously?

Seems like you're slowly coming around to the idea that I posted a case and and now trying to slink off while town carries my bags? If so, read that last page with me and Pintu regarding Draynth and give thoughts please.

[Sando]

And he's busy in real life, and you're framing that as him causing a shitstorm and then lurking in order to let town tear itself up in the fallout.

I feel like you're ascribing scummy motivation (ie staying quiet after scumreading you/ud) to something completely NAI (ie being busy irl)

Top notch effort ignoring our actual discussion about this, read the bit about kissing the blokes GF.

[Sando]

Seems like you're slowly coming around to the idea that I posted a case and and now trying to slink off while town carries my bags?

I don't know what you mean by this

That you're muddling your way through desperately trying to find a scum-motivation for my actions...and that you're getting close to something that I've just accused Draynth of. Namely, the idea that you drop some bait about someone's scumminess and slink away while townies fight over it and kill themselves in the process.

a) get your own scumcase!
b) given you're accusing me of what I'm accusing Draynth of, what do you think? Who's been more effective at this scumploy?





_{a is a joke}

[Sando]

Sando - dependent on flip, but null

I mean yeah, your read of me is probably gonna be decided if/when I flip

No more seriously, whose flip am I dependent on, or don't want to tell me in-case I kill em? Also how you treating flip stuff in a multiball? This is my first so genuinely interested in how you're approaching it?

[Sando]

back to the draynth thing, I think that you're framing something NAI as being scummy.

So Pintu explicitly stated agreement with me and was clearly fishing for that sort of answer, so he already had it in mind. And UD has reiterated some of my points and some of yours. Why exactly do you think it's me that's scummy and why do you seem to hold the view that someone should be incredibly definitive with their D1 scumreads?

[Sando]

'Haven't played with Draynth'
'This is how I think he plays based on the 5 posts so far, and am subsequently scumreading him for'
Are you kidding me
You say the post was ill-considered, of course it was? I said it was my very initial impressions based on a skim.
Also, why does it being ill-considered lead you to believe I'm scum?
It also feels super bad to be scumread for "staying quiet to let townies kill each other" when in reality I was just busy, as I said.

No I'm not kidding you, why would I?

I'm asked for a read on you, I give it. I also said

The lack of content gives me a lack of insight obviously

I'm pretty clearly saying I don't really have much insight into you.

I'm not acting on it, I haven't voted you, pushed you, done anything. It's not a strong read because there's not much there and it's obviously going to evolve. You also called me scummy for my 4th post in the game so...

[Sando]

Except what you have done is consistently passively throw shade on me for the whole situation.
I acknowledge you're not hardcore tunnelling me and that you admitting a lack of experience playing with me may affect your read but what you're doing feels wrong as town.
Anyway, what do you think of TYR?
Do you think it's worth pushing at all or am I wasting my time?

Consistently? I didn't mention you until I was asked and after that only cause skitter wanted to pursue me for it. What about it feels wrong? Factually wrong?

Not a lot tbh, I found the duckling vote reasonable however the reasoning was...odd, I have no idea what he's on about. I like the pressure on duckling though.

The lack of response to persistent pressure is both troubling and annoying. He's got thoughts on my current scumread that I'd like to hear, and yeah his other statements need an answer. I'm comfortable with the vote from you and I certainly hope you're not wasting your time, and yeah I'm happy to join you later if it remains persistent.

[Sando]

Uhhh what is LAL?

Lynch All Lurkers

[Sando]

wrt ud - I mean, I'm not psychic? I can't call someone out for an argument they made before they made the argument

wrt bolded - I don't know what that means or where you think I'm doing that

Yet you seem to want me to psychically know what Pintu's thoughts were...

Bolded - You think my thoughts on Draynth are a "framing", well Pintu has expressed the exact same thoughts and UD has confirmed some of them, and refuted others. What are your thoughts on the "framing" given Pintu thinks exactly the same? What are your thoughts on the "framing" now that UD has made his statement about it?

[Sando]

Pin and ud have meta reasons for associating draynth lurking with draynth being scummy. You explicitly said your read wasn't meta-based, but that you think him lurking is scummy, and my point is that being busy irl isn't AI.

It's almost like scum could

*gasp*

lie...

[Sando]

A few things skitter is posting are looking townier

I wanted to led it ride for a day or so to see how she responded, but yeah I'm tending to agree. The desperate attempt to read everything I do as scummy strikes me as townie, plus she's run this well beyond what a scum would see as viable I think.

UNVOTE:

[Sando]

a) i don't think I'm being 'desperate'

It's a decent descriptor. You're reading literally every interaction I have with people as scummy, that's not how scum act, they generally act townie most of the time and then veer off into scum territory as subtly as they can. It's also too much work and risky for scum typically to try to paint a persons every actions as scummy, they're going to look at a few interactions and hone in on those.

This tells me you're town making a bad read, but then I obviously know it's a bad read and no-one else does, so I'm really just explaining why I think you're most likely town.

[Sando]

You flip red and all your reads become 'poof' meaningless, just like that.

What?
a) association isn't a thing anymore?
b) this is multiball...

I think Espe's theorising about multiball says he's werewolf, who are likely to play like normal scum imo. Directing town away from "normal" scumhunting is not helping town and has not been clarified.

VOTE: Espeonage

Duckling you're still looking non-town to me, so Ima guess you're Mafia, that's a bad duckling!

[Sando]

Sando, pushing the you don't scumhunt normally is how I bussed last jungle republic and is in fact how you play multiball, so sit your arse down and get in your lane.

What you're gonna find is that appeals to authority aren't gonna have a great effect on me...back to your valiant efforts to get duckling lynched though, I can appreciate that at least.

[Sando]

I don't understand what you mean by this. Why is theorizing about multiball specifically werewolf indicative? Why is it even scum indicative in a generic-scum sense?

Theorising itself is not, but:
a) he's not backing up his theory, he's just saying "I've played jungle before, this is how you do it", hence my Appeal to Authority statement.
b) I think it's werewolf because they're the "traditional" scum in this game. They've got a NK, they don't have to worry about being NK'd and they've got a PR they need to deal with. They have some extra thoughts on their mind, like needing to get scum numbers lower (I think this is how end-game works from my reading), but overall they can probably play a formal normal scumgame, which I'm positing that you can therefore normally scumhunt. Espe is saying that you can't normal scumhunt (which I disagree with) and that's saying to town that they shouldn't do something that should in theory be just as effective against one-scumfaction, wolves. Hence via that old logic-centre in mah brain, most likely wolf.

[Sando]

b) I don't really agree that scum play a normal scumgame in multiball- both factions can legitimately look for scum (and thus can naturally do behaviors that are normally associated with town). As such, it's hard to scumhunt normally because scum can do townie behaviors. And wolves' night actions aren't entirely analogous to those of scum in singleball because they don't know the alignment of the nk - they can choose to try to shoot for scum instead of shooting a townie.

I'm not saying you don't need to change up your approach, I'm saying it's throwing the baby out with the bathwater to throw out all normal scumhunting.

[Sando]

I mean, I agree, but that's why I'm saying I don't think that the things you're calling out esp for are specifically werewolf indicative.

p-edit: @sando

Werewolf to me are the closest to normal scum, with some advantages and disadvantages, namely only NK and numbers respectively. I think mafia win if they're equal numbers to wolves in end-game? So wolves losing one player means they need to lynch/kill all the scum to win, tough ask, but they may need to play even more conservatively scum to get it done. Mafia need to play a very different game to standard, not only can they scumhunt, they HAVE to, and they also can't be super townie lest the wolves "accidentally" shoot them, they have a fine line to walk.

I think town need to change their style more to deal with mafia. Or in other words, traditional scumhunting is, whilst being less effective overall, more likely to catch wolves than mafia.

[Sando]

Anyone a fan of the Elli tell? Because Draynth is posting elsewhere and not in this game.

I find it vaguely scummy, but I've certainly seen town do it as well. When scum don't have daychat it's less of a tell imo, since with daychat they tend to converse in their scumthread before commenting in the game.

[Sando]

Hey, look at the time, it is some point.

It's high noo...wait, wrong cowboy.

[Sando]

Are you going to explain the vote though?

yeah probably at some point.

Is this "reasons" or just lazy/can't be bothered?

[Sando]

Ok I'm confused. Have I completely misread the last page or so here?

Is UD saying that they're voting me for "reasons" but don't want to say them? There's nothing for him to look for, anyone claiming to know my scum meta vs town meta is kidding themselves, I haven't had scum in a completed game since coming back, and this is currently my only ongoing I'm alive in.

Is UD saying that they voted for Skitter for "reasons" but when pressed about constantly voting people for "reasons" defends the skitter one by saying their "reasons" are no longer valid and they don't scumread them? Cause that doesn't answer the question of why UD is currently just constantly using "reasons".

[Sando]

My skitter reasons were as you put it "reasons" which I have changed my mind about.

My reasons about you... as you pointed out... have nothing to do with your meta

You've changed your mind yeah, but have you ever actually articulated those "reasons" about skitter?

You pointed that out about me? Where?

Are you always this cryptic/vague?

[Sando]

My skitter reasons were as you put it "reasons" which I have changed my mind about.

My reasons about you... as you pointed out... have nothing to do with your meta

You've changed your mind yeah, but have you ever actually articulated those "reasons" about skitter?

You pointed that out about me? Where?

Are you always this cryptic/vague?

I never said I pointed out my reasons.

What the actual fuck...

[Sando]

please re read the post where I said "as you pointed out..."

Yeah ok...

Is UD saying that they voted for Skitter for "reasons" but when pressed about constantly voting people for "reasons" defends the skitter one by saying their "reasons" are no longer valid and they don't scumread them?

Cause that doesn't answer the question of why UD is currently just constantly using "reasons".

See the bold part, this whole thing from you makes zero of the senses.

[Sando]

I enjoy compliments.

Your new avatar is gorgeous

[Sando]

Aww shucks, this is my good angle.

Ducks looking right are scummy, amirite?!

[Sando]

I'm getting some, "I've been caught but y'all shouldn't have caugth me because of OTHER PEOPLE" vibes from UD rn.

in what world are you reading me in any form as a "caught?"
which am I?
an idiotic WW or stupid Mafia?

Why would either of those factions as me (or anyone for that matter) act in this way?

I honestly don't know or care which one you are. But I'll take this as confirmation that you are one.

And because obfuscation, confusion, and lack of information are core pillars of how scum gets advantages over town.

As much as I agree with the backwards duckling, why did he start this? Or do you think he didn't expect this response and is scrambling?

[Sando]

Bonus here is that you can potentially get cred for being right. Not that it matters because multiball.

He's not, but still, none of the matters.

Do you know enough about UD to know whether he'd read into players like me that he hasn't seen before, reading my previous games etc?

[Sando]

So the issue I'm having is that either:

UD wasn't expecting this response and is scrambling - scummy

UD looked at my history and was expecting the response and decided to pick a fight with someone who wasn't going to tunnel them D1 (it's not my style) - scummy

I'm really wary of a situation where we've painted a guy into being scummy no matter what on D1, and I'm not really sure what to make of it all.

[Sando]

I literally can't think of a reason to intentionally withhold this

Meta is the only reasonable reason, which he (I?) have stated that it isn't.

[Sando]

But if it's a site rule issue you can indicate that you can't go into it further on fear of death. Like you kinda have to.

Site rule? Mentioning other games would be the only other one? This is the only game I'm currently alive in and he's not in my dead game, so I'm not sure what site rule could prevent it.

Pretty sure he's just claiming bored-townie at this point.

[Sando]

SANDO REALLY, BUT FRICKING REALLY MAY NEED ROPE

Not only that, if I compare to Open 720 and comprove that he's off, I'll be asking for some explanations to some players here that played there as well and didn't say anything about him

Rofl, out of CJ, NM, Pintu and Duckling, the person who flaked out wants to accuse me of being different from there?

Where's that "proof", game going too fast for you to post it?

Your analysis of wolf-game is flat out wrong by the way.

While we're on the topic (and this might help you realise the error of your ways Fumuki) of 720, I'm putting it out there now: Do not CC as seer, especially D1. Scum and Wolf optimal strategy is going to nearly always be claim seer, if you're the seer, let them claim and just quietly go about your business. If you die, we shall avenge you, promise.

[Sando]

and hi the worst, Sando, Pintu and Espeonage! How are you guys?

Hi, I'm good, how's things with you?

[Sando]

Now I would if possible like some explanations of why it's wrong, and why you've been so focused with the wolves strategy Sando, it's not the first time you mention it.

While we're on the topic (and this might help you realise the error of your ways Fumuki) of 720, I'm putting it out there now: Do not CC as seer, especially D1. Scum and Wolf optimal strategy is going to nearly always be claim seer, if you're the seer, let them claim and just quietly go about your business. If you die, we shall avenge you, promise.

Heh...what has it to do with 720 Sando?

And I know that counterclaiming isn't a very good idea here, however I suggest that the seer leave us some crumbs of their night targets or we'll be fucked.

Rofl, so you haven't read 720 then? The entire game hinged on me gamesolving D3 by telling the tracker not to CC. You might want to read it before you meta read me based off that.

Crumbing D1 is fairly pointless.

How can you not work out what I'm getting at? I worry about your powers of deduction: Wolves want to kill seer more than scum.

[Sando]

Why are you being so aggressive...I really don't remember you being like this...plus, it's kind of a scumtell to be so personally aggressive with another player in hope of discrediting them.

Two people were asked to tone it down for being too aggressive in discrediting people in 720...one of them was your slot, the other was me. Ask Pintu, it was him and Alonzo I believe that were upset at the aggressiveness being shown, and I even made a case on Alonzo for buddying up to terrible-town...by articulating quite clearly why said town was terrible. You clearly haven't read much if any of 720, yet you're making a meta case against me based on it.

No, I didn't mean to crumb in d1 .-., just the results if someone is cleared or not of being wolf.

Again, you haven't read 720 if you think my "don't crumb" was out of nowhere, since there was speculation that Duckling was NKd as the detective due to crumbing / soft-claiming D1. It wasn't true in the end, but there was a LOT of speculation in game about it.

Anyway...ah...only the Wolves want to kill the seer I think? I mean, as long as the seer is alive there's the chance of a Wolf being guilted and lynched .-.

Why would ever Mafia want to kill the seer?

The thing is that you see to be thinking about Wolf strategies but not of town or mafia strategies.

Now you're just saying that you haven't read THIS game. In 494 I describe the ways wolves are normal scum, in 521 I describe mafia and wolf differences.

You're right, mafia won't fakeclaim seer, that was me getting ahead of myself. As I said though: "wolves want to kill the seer", which is in direct contradiction to your "wolves want to kill scum first".

[Sando]

@Fumuki what do you think of Sando not knowing earlier that Mafia doesn't have nightkill?

Wat?

[Sando]

if Sandi is town/maf Fumuki is town/woofer

This is the only reasonable conclusion, yes.

[Sando]

Ooooh tell me. Is Fumuki wolf?

He's describing sub-optimal wolf play which would equal wolf. But then he seems terribly worried about the NKs coming at Mafia and understands Mafia's play here very well...

[Sando]

TW, we need to heavily disagree here. Sando didn't notice until a minute ago that Mafia has no reason to want to out the Seer. Do you think if he's scum here he would be thinking only about the other team and not what he himself should do?

It makes no sense duckling. There's some probability of him being mafia, but if Sando is scum, he's very likely flipping wolf here.

Yo TW, have your fun with Fumi, but it's just occurred to me: Why are people so concerned about which scumfaction the person is? Town are the least likely to care about what faction someone is other than that they're scum, at least while seer is alive and well.

[Sando]

1. Sando, I said to Quick tune down about insulting you as far as I remember. But let's drop the meta thing until I come back with some conclusions after reading again 720. It's not only me saying that you're kind of off here.

You've said 2-3 times that I need rope and are voting me, purely off a meta read that you now refuse to back up with evidence and want to back away from it by claiming "others agree"?

Nope nope nope, it's go time.

VOTE: Fumuki

[Sando]

Ooooh tell me. Is Fumuki wolf?

He's describing sub-optimal wolf play which would equal wolf. But then he seems terribly worried about the NKs coming at Mafia and understands Mafia's play here very well...

Oh you mean he's giving town terrible wolf hunting advice to help them fail? That it?

Well he's saying wolves should be killing mafia overnight, ignoring that while that's true, their actual top priority is the seer. This could be obfuscation of what wolves are actually trying to accomplish and could also play into tomorrow's "hey why'd wolves kill xyz?", but I haven't fully thought that through you.

But then there's other reasons for him being mafia instead, but given your last I'll stop.

[Sando]

Am I meant to reply to this? o.0

No just keep it in mind, you and others, Fumu's gone a bit nutso over there, I'll deal with it.

[Sando]

PLUS, WHY ARE YOU SAYING THAT TOWN SHOULDN'T CARE ABOUT WHAT FACTION THEY LYNCH?

So we lynch scum, who's gonna care more about which faction we hit within scum, the faction that ain't scum, or one of the scum factions?

Like...this one is pretty clear cut here.

[Sando]

WEREWOLVES, KILL, MAFIA, FIRST.

THERE'S NO ARGUING ABOUT IT. IF THEY KILL TOWN IT'S A MAFIA WIN FOR SURE.

SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEER

[Sando]

Let's say that this is the optimal play to werewolves. WHY DID YOU SAY THAT? IT'S THE UNIQUE TOWN POWER ROLE, DON'T MAKE THEM GO AFTER HIM.

Rofl, yeah I'm sure it hasn't occurred to wolves to NK the PR...

720 peeps, Fumu would like to make this about who's more different between here and 720, I humbly submit...it aint me.

[Sando]

Ooooh tell me. Is Fumuki wolf?

He's describing sub-optimal wolf play which would equal wolf. But then he seems terribly worried about the NKs coming at Mafia and understands Mafia's play here very well...

Oh you mean he's giving town terrible wolf hunting advice to help them fail? That it?

Sorry I can't not talk about wolf, but I can stop talking about the NK cause that's just stupid talk.

The actual part about this that we should be looking for between wolves and scum is avoidance of lynches. I won't say why but it should be reasonably obvious, but wolves are currently petrified of being lynched, and I'd say a D1 wolf lynch results in an almost guaranteed wolf loss. For that reason I'm not convinced Fumu is wolf, it's too out there and too aggressive for a faction that loses so much from a lynch.

[Sando]

MWNN are you ww or mafia?
Fumuki are you ww or mafia?
Sando are you ww or mafia?

Opposite of what Fumu says

[Sando]

Omg guys, Sando doesn't get this game. I swear that he doesn't.

I think given experience, asking people to trust you that I'm bad at understand how game mechanics are going to play out is probably not going to go well for you...

[Sando]

I don't care who the werewolves are killing first, I need to lynch mafia and werewolves, and I have no way of telling which scum are which during Day 1, so, can we stop talking about who kills whom first?

Fumu just ignored this from MWNN btw. He'd like you to believe that I'm scum because I think town are the least caring faction about which scum-faction gets lynched...but here we have another player expressing basically that sentiment.

[Sando]

OMG, I'VE HAD A REALIZATION

ACTUALLY SANDO CAN BE MAFIA

He's trying to make wolves kill town and hunt the Seer when that benefits more mafia than anything.

Yeah, that's some mafia motivation.

But I slipped before about the seer interaction with Mafia, fake non-mafia slip? Just remember to rationalise everything here, you'll get there.

UNVOTE:

Fumu def aint wolf, pretty sure this is the epitome of TvT, so I'll move on.

TW, I'm disappointed in you.

VOTE: the worst

[Sando]

It's interesting because my future wife will be 30 for 4 more days, so she will turn 31 during our honeymoon and I have a month and 4 days of 30 being married.

By pure chance, I am exactly 2 months younger than my fiancee.

This is like a school math problem

Congrats though

[Sando]

seer only gets ww/not ww results right?

Truth, but I slipped first, get your own slip!

[Sando]

Thanks for everyone attention. Now I'm going to meme and stop try-harding.

You're keeping up admirably this game, well done!

[Sando]

In a way if we lynch ww and seer gets a guilty we could leash the surviving wolf right? Rather than quick lynching

I

think

we'd be better off just taking advantage of having more lynches? Same outcome but actually completely "town" controlled.

[Sando]

I still think you're a wolf but that sarcasm is good

I mean if I'm scum I'm either Mafia or Wolf. If my play makes no sense as wolf I'm probably Mafia, and vice versa. If my play makes no sense as either I'm probably neither. Ignoring part of my play so you can slot me into a scumslot is poor play, no matter how you choose to cut it.

Your play makes zero sense as wolf, but it still makes sense as Mafia. From the way this has gone down I'm fairly strongly leaning town, but that's gut rather than logic and well...read post-game 720 if you want insight into that about me.

[Sando]

In a way if we lynch ww and seer gets a guilty we could leash the surviving wolf right? Rather than quick lynching

I

think

we'd be better off just taking advantage of having more lynches? Same outcome but actually completely "town" controlled.

Sando, that's wrong.

If the 2 werewolves drop dead, it becomes a nightless game practically and town have 100% control of the lynchs. Town has an advantage in nightless games because the town powerhouses can't eat the NK.

Mafia is the one that benefits more by leaving the Werewolves alive because LATER they need to hunt the Seer and that's basically killing townies while Mafia coast.

Are you just misunderstanding or desperate to "prove" me wrong? Me and you are agreeing with each other that both WWs should be dead. By both WWs being dead we get more lynches, which I'm saying is better than leaving the WW "leashed".

[Sando]

I'm saying that Werewolf need to shoot Mafia and you say that I'm probably more Mafia than Wolf?

Yep.

It's going nowhere so let's just "scumhunt" then

Sando, who are your main suspects?

Well I'm voting one...the other is Espe, who you should look at if you're so intent on game-theory.

You're also really, really intent on showing that you don't understand 720.

Why did you come in here with such a strong meta-read when you clearly haven't actually read it?

I've stated many times, during and post-game there, that I would prefer to townhunt than scumhunt, I'm better at it and I find it more effective. It's tough here in multiball but I'm working through that I hope.

[Sando]

I'll make a case explaining it later. You can have changed in the later days but I don't remember you being exactly like this.

Plus, I'm not even scum reading you sole for the meta thing anymore, a great deal is for what you said back there

There's a couple of things I can see you misunderstanding and thinking of my play,

but the key point is the strength of your scumread here

, not the fact that you had it. Your first two real posts were calling for my rope, and then voting me, all before I'd woken up for the day. I'm attacking your read of 720 since to have that strong a view I'd expect more than the tiny part of D1 that you were actually there for and assumed you'd have to have read 720 to come to that strong conclusion.

You could think my interactions with TW are markedly different - they are, why do you think I'm suspecting him? You should look into us and decide which of us, or is it both of us, that are causing that change in interaction.
You could think I'm more "aggressive" - but you'd have to ignore that I spent basically the entire game calling a town-player a moron, to the point of telling them I'll never play with them again in any context.
You could think I'm posting less - check post-game, I've said I regret that and it was a specific gambit from me to catch scum and I felt it failed, reasonable to assume I wouldn't continue doing it.

So yeah, at a passing glance there's plenty for you to pick up on as different between 720 and here. But the strength of your meta-read indicates more than a passing read of 720.

[Sando]

Also, if you would like to know how to tell that I am obv town, despite my lack of focus, I have been actually interested in the game, and that's Town Indicative for me. Which is why I'm surprised the worst implied he'd be willing to lynch me despite knowing that it's me and I'm like Creature level easy to read.

I'm interested in this, TW can't reasonably feel what he's just written about me above, but he's struck me as someone who wouldn't make that sort of statement in bad faith just to scumwin. But that's based on gut feel about the guy, I've only experienced town TW.

[Sando]

Which bit do you think was said in bad faith?
I don't do bad faith if I can avoid it (spoiler: I can avoid it)

That we lost chemistry, I mean it flowed on into our next (ongoing) game and I specifically encouraged you to sign up to this very game. Don't see how that happens and you think our chemistry faded.

[Sando]

You could think my interactions with TW are markedly different - they are, why do you think I'm suspecting him? You should look into us and decide which of us, or is it both of us, that are causing that change in interaction.

You could think I'm more "aggressive" - but you'd have to ignore that I spent basically the entire game calling a town-player a moron

, to the point of telling them I'll never play with them again in any context.

Okay, I'll look at TW vs Sando but that "town-player" that you bad mouthed wasn't Quick was?

If It was it doesn't really matter to me to be honest. A lot of people get mad at Quick, the difference is that you've been passive-aggressive while interacting with almost everyone here.

Yeah Quick, not sure why it being a typical person for people to get angry at takes away from the fact that I'm perfectly capable of getting aggressive at people as town. I'm passive aggressive with everyone, I'm a sarcastic asshole with occasional bursts of levity.

[Sando]

pedit: sorry should have elaborated. we started as t/t jammin' in 720--by eod1 we weren't jamming as hard and I had a few stronger townreads. Lost out t/t chemistry.

Well I mean at some point we had to get serious and lynch

town

someone. FTR I think I was the main person TRing you EOD and that never wavered, and whilst lowest on my TRs that was probably a good spot for you to be as PR.

[Sando]

Basically everyone trying to say that WW and mafia are different is bad.

Probably scum, but also hella bad.

You do you Espe, but given you've claimed bad-town, I don't think many people are gonna listen to ya.

[Sando]

Was that not you? Shit, was it the uglyduck? There's too many ducks.

[Sando]

Shit, it was, UD 564 was what I was thinking of.

[Sando]

Is this you pointing out there is a seer or calling them a seer?

I'm pointing out there's a seer and that WW probably care about that.

on one hand you have a point to the extent that we should lynch "any skum" over "any town", but again, obviously we would prefer to lynch WW over Mafia.

Obviously town care, but if it's scum town care a whole lot less about which scum than the scumfactions do.

[Sando]

"Wolves want to kill seer more than scum." My interpretation was "WW want to kill the Seer. WW also want to kill Scum. But WW want the Seer more than they want Scum". Fumuki got "WW want to kill the Seer, and so does Scum, but WW want it more".

Obviously the difference is huge, as the Mafia don't want the Seer gone as a priority, so I would have been much more inclined to go with my interpretation if Sando ever corrected Fumuki there. I was surprised that he didn't, and while I don't think Sando is in fact a WW myself (Why would a WW think aloud in the main thread about his plans?) I now clearly see Fumuki has a point (i.e. NOT overdoing it).

What are you getting at here? This is super confusingly written.

Fumuki thinks WW should target: Mafia>Seer>Town
Sando

thought

seer was a threat to both Mafia and WW, Fumu corrected me.
Sando thinks WW should target: Seer>Mafia>Town

At no point did my thoughts on WW target change. Is that first quote from me? Cause if so, Fumu got interpretation right there, not you. I was wrong about seer role PM.

I think me and Fumuki understand each other here (correct me if I'm wrong Fumu), even if we disagree...and yeah I've "corrected" (disagreed would be a better term) Fumuki on this a lot.

[Sando]

--> @sando, 529: I'm a little bit confused about this given that you've previously characterized him as a scummy lurker? Like you're now saying that posting elsewhere isn't really inherently scummy?

Because I didn't say it wasn't scummy, I said it was "vaguely" scummy.

Saying "I'm scum!" - 10/10 for scumminess.
QL without waiting for claim in PR game - 7/10 for scumminess
Posting elsewhere in day-chat game - 5/10 for scumminess
Posting elsewhere in non-day-chat game - 3/10 for scumminess

Now just watch about 5 people say "I'm scum", just watch!!

[Sando]

hmmmm how much do I really want to vote espe here

Why you wouldn't? Do you disagree with the points raised against him?

And who do you want to vote instead?

He's not sure whether to bus or not in multiball.

What's the VC?

[Sando]

So L-1 effectively.

[Sando]

Who are you referring to? You're quoting me but I think telling Fumu not to judge on one game?

[Sando]

It too was because the Werewolves had bad reads (and were again hunting the fricking Seer), killing a lot of the town. And when Werewolves suck, we need to try lynching them before they hurt town too much. Either that or focus in lynching Mafia as long as the Seer is alive.

You seem to think the NK makes the wolves some sort of gods and this is their game to lose. Even in the absolute best case for them where they get a Mafia lynched today and kill the seer overnight, it's 2 vs 8 and they still need to overcome some anti-win conditions.

[Sando]

Now can we go on with the game? @Sando and @Fumuki get over it

I'm just killing time until Skitter catches up or UD actually explains "reasons" on me, I don't particularly care at this point.

[Sando]

If you're killing time let's jam. Anything you want to talk about? I liked our earlier interactions, and as I said before, now that 720 is finished, I think I'm talking with town!Sando

Sure, I feel like Espe's view on WW/Mafia hunting has moved. It was "lol you can't regular scumhunt" and is now "lol idiots you can't tell between Scum and WW". To me this feels like trying to get away from previous (bad) theory and now trying to look like the reasonable person.

Thoughts? Am I being paranoid?

[Sando]

lynching scum *in general* isn't nearly as easy as you're making it out to be and just saying 'we're going to lynch wolves today and tomorrow' like isn't going to make that happen and I'll be happy to just lynch not-town.

You had me up till here, but 7 v 5 is significantly better odds than town normally get D1, I think blind luck here is better lynch percentage than regular games where they actually scumhunt?

[Sando]

Mmmm I actually think there's a conection between those two posts and it is that Espe's frustrated about the gamestate at this point. I feel the same way, so he's trying to cut the conversation. He went in an aggresive manner about the topic, and I believe that he did that not because he really thinks people (aka Fumuki) are stupid, but because he wants to discourage people of talking about said topic. That is pretty consistent.

Ok but I don't really think his original comments were directed at Fumu, in fact he wasn't in the game at that point, but I can see it, next one:

TW seems off this game compared to 720, less jocular, deflecting rather than engaging, that sort of thing. I mean it could be PR vs not PR, but I would expect the opposite in terms of playstyle movement if that were the case.

[Sando]

How come people are saying that there's "no way" to differentiate Mafia and WW?

Because a lot of that analysis is going to be NK analysis, which hasn't happened yet.

[Sando]

What I don't like about Duckling this game is his voting sequence: some of them seems to be rushed and without explanation, even when people is suspecting him, like trying to deviate attention quickly to another wagon.

From a personal POV it honestly feels like he's ignoring my vote/comments on him due to knowing I don't really trust my D1 scumreads (I've said it often enough in his presence), and so he can safely ignore me today. Hence my comments to you now. But that could well be me just being a wanker and overstating my own stature.

[Sando]

I think we can sort other people before him.

What's your read on skitter, now that you're not 1v1ing her?

I'm comfy with that.

I've felt sandwiched by skitter tbh, where pretty much anything I do is going to get twisted as scummy. I think that's bad town, but again, probably because I toot my own horn a bit much. It's a strategy that won't work on me to get my mislynched, so I'm sticking with town. I don't think the above "oh geez we're STILL talking about this" comes from scum either.

AP, skitter, and Fumu are townie to me
Pintu, CJ, MWNN are my list of townie enough to not be today's lynch.
Espe, TW in my lynchlist with UD bringing up the rear there

[Sando]

someone sum up the war of the wall posts for me?

No change

[Sando]

What's not so great is that our reads are not matching: don't really care about scumreads, but your townreads are weird: why AP and Fumu?

My townreads at this moment are Sando, skitter, UD and myself, so hit me up to see who wants to be which Beatle (I know I know, but someone has to be Ringo). MWNN is Brian Epstein and I'm looking for our George Martin. It's pretty obvious that the Seer will be Ravi Shankar when confirmed.

APs posts seems generally townie, maybe only deserves "not todays lynched", but yeah...not todays lynch

Fumu due to our 1v1, feels like Quick tbh, but def feels TvT. I'd say almost 100% not wolf due to sheer audacity though.

Why UD in townteam?!

[Sando]

Wolves are the ones most prone to trying to sound townish as hell to not get lynched or investigated by the Seer.

You don't show townish as hell, you sound anti-wolf, there's a big difference, which I'm trying to articulate there.

[Sando]

My problem with AP is that in our last game it seemed like he didn't care that much, and he was town there. I agree that his posts have been townie, but I don't know, he's pretty unsortable to me, seems like he can't be metaread at all. I really want to townread tho, our group would be a lot more shagadelic baby!

I mean do you want him in the lynchlist or are we arguing about null->town here?

[Sando]

Oh no no no never in the lynchlist. I'm just trying to sort out who could be my sixth Pokémon as the last slot is always the trickiest because you already have like good coverage of a lot of types both in effectiveness and in resistances, but that sixth Pokémon could change it all.

I mean always remember there's actually not that many town here, so we can't get normal numbers going. Sheeping him might not be the best regardless, he's made some incorrect reads on gamestate, but I'm happy with just excluding from lynch list and looking elsewhere.

[Sando]

I meant I'm a bad wagon >:

I want to lynch a duck though, and you think both other ducks are townie...

[Sando]

do not

Wait which one can I

help you bus

lynch?

[Sando]

Sando, are you sticking with TW wagon or are you switching to Espeonage, Ceejay or another one which you'll mostly need to create from the begin?

I think CJ is a bad lynch today, I can get behind any of the ducks.

[Sando]

what the fuck

Oh I see, someone else who is anti-logic, this is gonna be

such

a fun game

[Sando]

Are you going to push TW or case UD?

I've been on TW and discussed with Pintu extensively. We're getting associatives on UD out the wazoo, so I'm not yet concerned there. Also the longer UD goes without actually contributing the happier I feel about lynching him, another day or two is fine and I don't feel the need to muddy that water right now.

Also based on activity, this game picks up in my afternoons into evenings, so 6 hours from now each day, trying to force something RIGHT NAOW is just an exercise in frustration I'm not keen to do to myself right now.

[Sando]

i'm not "anti-logic" dude. being logical doesn't magically make you not a wolf though. this:
I mean if I'm scum I'm either Mafia or Wolf. If my play makes no sense as wolf I'm probably Mafia, and vice versa. If my play makes no sense as either I'm probably neither. Ignoring part of my play so you can slot me into a scumslot is poor play, no matter how you choose to cut it.

is awkward wolfposting. it has nothing to do with whether you're right or wrong.

Never actually said I wasn't wolf specifically...said that person should consider wolf-motive and mafia-motive and whether it makes sense for me to be wolf...

Read the context and it might make sense, but Fumu had said "zomg Sando has gotta be Mafia, he's scummy and this makes no sense as wolf!" and also said "zomg Sando has gotta be Wolf, he's scummy and this only makes sense as Wolf!"...see how I might put those together and say "uhhh, might wanna check your theory there"?

[Sando]

So Espe is in L-2 (practically L-1 counting that NM will probably hammer if it comes to that)
TW is in L-5
Ceejay is in L-4

Sando has some vote as well I think.

I'm on TW atm but yeah I'll vote Espe later today if NMs wasn't the hammer.

And no NM, if it wasn't the hammer, I'm not voting after you remove it just to give you the hammer, you can't have all the fun.

[Sando]

VOTE: skitter

gl gl gl building a wagon on that

You and Ruby are honestly kind of wasting your votes

Can you not? It's Day1 and people should feel free to give their own reads. Arbitrarily closing down peoples options outside of their control is not helping and is merely going to annoy them. Given you spent the first 24-48 hours of your time in the game vainly calling for my lynch, methinks those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones just yet.

[Sando]

But yeah I'm retracting, I still like more a CJ lynch, but Fumuki is definetely a good slot to consider as scum in this game. And specifically Mafia since he slipped he's not Wolf.

VOTE: ceejayvinibobini

CJ feels like 720 tbh.

[Sando]

yo

why are you voting the ducky

and why aren't you voting skitter

Cause there's like 5 of them, and they're multiplying!

But more seriously, because this doesn't feel like his town game.

Skitter is bad-town imo, but that was off interactions with me, she's gone quiet recently I can see why you feel the way you do. I don't think it's a good D1 lynch though still.

[Sando]

But yeah I'm retracting, I still like more a CJ lynch, but Fumuki is definetely a good slot to consider as scum in this game. And specifically Mafia since he slipped he's not Wolf.

VOTE: ceejayvinibobini

CJ feels like 720 tbh.

Back that up, 'cause I don't feel it

Nope, feel free to push ahead, but I'm sitting on gut+"reasons" for today.

[Sando]

i can just tell you right now that skitter's not bad town normally

people said kokichi was "bad town" in 2005

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, because some other people thought someone was bad town and they were scum that means this read is probably wrong?

I just lost a game due to a bad town that I was calling bad town from early D1... the read can certainly be valid.

[Sando]

you are saying your read on someone is "oh that person's probably not scum, just bad town", and i'm telling you that in that person's towngames normally, they are not bad town. that should tell you something.

Sure, it does. I'm also telling you that my bad-town reads are fairly accurate, that should tell you something.

[Sando]

To everyone else: let's play some Nash Equilibrium! lynch town!CJ vs lynch town!skitter vs lynch scum!CJ vs lynch scum!skitter.

Personally I'd like CJ alive tomorrow and make that call then, but then I haven't played with skitter before so I'm not getting much of value from that slot anyway. If it honestly came down to those two I'd lynch skitter, but I'd rather lynch within TW/Espe

[Sando]

To be honest you would need some other allies like Sando voting for Espeonage as well if you don't want your lynch to go through

No seriously, can we stop with this sort of post. It might be true, but I think we'd all rather the person make their argument without you pre-influencing peoples reading of it by painting it as self-preservation.

[Sando]

is it bad that without any idea of his multiball scumrange I am like nearly 90% sure MWNN is town?

I mean I'm 90% sure about a lot of things...it's just that I'm wrong a lot

[Sando]

Hold on going to act scummy now to avoid a NK...

No no no, wolves want to shoot scum...


Ok ok ok, I'm sorry, I'll stop!

[Sando]

Ima hitting the sack and out most of tomorrow I think. TW aint happening, next best thing:

VOTE: Espeonage

[Sando]

I hope that when we get closer to the deadline Ceejay and skitter realize that the best thing is to vote for Espeonage or else they are the ones probably getting quicklynched, and If it comes to that dead end I'll rather hammer/vote one of them than let a day without lynch in slots that I'm not town reading yet go through.

Fumu if you don't stop this I'm calling for a policy lynch on you.

STOP TELLING PEOPLE TO SELF-PRESERVATION VOTE.

You're utterly destroying associative reads and pre-colouring peoples votes. It's blatantly anti-town and hurting peoples ability to scumhunt. FFS stop it. You're also blatantly wrong about a lot of it, 48 hours ago you were laughing at the idea that Skitter would be todays lynch and now you're telling her that she needs to preservation vote. Just...stop it. People know how the game works, they know someone is getting lynched and if it's not them it needs to be someone else. Let them flounder to avoid a lynch or blithely ignore it, that's information we NEED as town and can read into, and you're destroying it.

[Sando]

I flatly refuse to believe we had 0 scumfucks on this wagon.

There's 5 scumfucks and 4 unconfirmed off the lynch, by definition there was at least one on there.

Was Pintu the only "UD is only this disinterested as town" person yesterday? It was a really non-informative town-meta read from Pintu coming through, can't find anyone else who was dead-set against UD though.

Yeah still think you're scummer-duck, but then I don't tunnel early game (anymore).

[Sando]

So as much as it surprised me.... I have enough respect to see how ww!AP makes such a good shot!

Stop trying to humble brag duckling, it's unbecoming.

[Sando]

Actually if we don't lynch AP maybe you're not dead tonight? Wolves can't kill you without confirming you and your result so AP gets auto-lynched once you die.

I think I love you just for this post.

Sando/uglyduck have interesting associatives from early game (especially wrt the 'do mafia have nks' bit)

This makes me love you less.

Was it the red gem saying D1 that skitter being bad town equals scum? Cause this^ is bad town.

[Sando]

a) actually I rethought the top bit. I think that tw gets killed tonight irregardless of whether ap gets lynched today. AP's pretty much a dead man walking imo at this point, and not killing tw tonight doesn't really change that, so they aren't really incentivized to keep him alive.

I mean I'm willing to talk about the general notion of leashing him on the condition that tw stays alive tonight and that he's auto-lynched tomorrow if tw dies, but like, I don't really think wolves are particularly incentivized to go along with that plan so I'm probably not willing to risk it.

b) the fact that you keep on trying to point me away from the ud/sando associatives kinda makes me think that there might be something there

c) I don't particularly consider ruby red qualified to meta me.

a) Yeah he will almost definitely die tonight, especially after a Mafia kill last night, but meh, it's still better to lynch elsewhere imo.

b) the fact that you don't address the issue with it from yesterday makes me think that I'm right and you're bad at this

c) I never said he was, I had this discussion with him late D1, I'm inviting him to comment further on it if he'd like

[Sando]

can someone please tell me specifically who "Fuggo" is?

Fuggo = f***ing ugly, and you're "UglyDuck", so yeah it's you.

[Sando]

a) and the benefits to lynching elsewhere today are ... ?

b) I don't know what issue you're referring to? Can you link me or something cuz idk what you're talking abt

c) you were trying to make the argument that that post makes me look like bad town, and that according to ruby when it looks like I"m bad town I'm scum. I'm just pointing out that I don't think his opinion is particularly relevant here given that I don't think he has that meta on me.

And the benefits to lynching AP today are? My point is that sure, it probably makes literally no difference, there's a very slim chance we get some benefit tomorrow if we lynch elsewhere. 95% sure TW aint lying, him dying overnight will happen either way, removing that 5% doubt. 95% sure TW dies overnight, he 100% dies overnight if we confirm him by lynching AP. By far and away the most likely scenario is AP is WW and TW dies overnight, but there's a few percentages here and there that not lynching AP today could provide us an edge with.

I mean we're gonna be in this position tomorrow, why rush to lynch AP now?

b) Sando 169 has my original mocking of the idea that we're on the same team running the exact same gambit, along with my mocking the idea that we're both scum but different factions. I for some reason though the factions were "scum" and "WW" at that point, hence my first point, which looks silly from me.

c) I mean I also had the conversation with him yesterday where I said my bad-town reads were something I tended to trust and he had a go at me for not understanding meta reads. I'm merely pointing it out to him for him to add to the list of evidence. His theory is you're scum, mine is town. Theories should take account of all available evidence, I'm merely adding to that list, not changing my read, although I'm asking ruby to re-evaluate and get back to me, albeit without specifically saying that.

[Sando]

So TW is the Seer, no CC, with a crumbed claim and crumbed guilty...

Remind me why there are votes on him?

Piggy was the only TW voter today? He's on UD now, although probably actually not due to nomenclature.

[Sando]

because there's a guilty on him? If there's no benefit to delaying I don't see why we don't just lynch him? Like if AP isn't lynched today I still think that TW almost always gets killed here -> I think the wolves will find it more beneficial to just let AP go than to let TW have another night to get a result.

That reminds me - hard-bussing maybe wolf indicative? Not sure.

There's 2 wolves, if there's a 1% chance we're wrong and TW lives tonight, why isn't that better than 0%? If this were the last wolf, sure, we remove NKs, but we have to hunt for his buddy today or tomorrow, what's the difference other a feeling of a job well done letting TW catch a wolf for us?

Right, and my response to that at that time was that I found it more odd/concerning that you were answering for uglyduck there and that your explanation included him. I pointed this out a few times and you never really responded to that.

I mean what do you want me to say? We were accused of being scumbuddies because we said practically the same thing, and in defending myself from that I talked about both of us, because the accusation was about both of us... I was specifically attacking the idea that we're scumbuddies together, why would I not talk about the other person?

[Sando]

So TW is the Seer, no CC, with a crumbed claim and crumbed guilty...

Remind me why there are votes on him?

I claimed guilty on AP and he's throwing a tantrum
NM then voted me too

ez wolfteam

I haven't thought this through myself, but why do you think AP+WW (NM?) killed Pintu?

[Sando]

I posted to that effect, you even misunderstood and called me out on humble bragging!! :'(

Lol, but that was fairly generic "Pintu is a good scum/seer target" rather than a reason AP or his buddy would specifically want them dead. Or do we feel the need to seer-hunt and mafia-hunt, that they can't afford to direct their kills to help them hide?

[Sando]

or they might have scumread him they're both good scumhunters

Why not actually scumhunt him yesterday and get the cred for it?

[Sando]

bruh

why are we having this convo even AP is factually mod confkrmsd scum I'm just saying that kill is in his scope

Because he has a partner, and you die tonight no matter what, so that gives us no info, so theorising about who AP is connected to and why the partner+AP might want Pintu dead is about all we got going for us atm in that hunt.

How can you agree with me that we need to hunt the partner and simultaneously think that all I care about is proving AP guilty?

[Sando]

Not_Mafia or u I think but prolly NM

What I was kinda round about getting at before was I think piggy sees the soft-claim and shoots you N1.

[Sando]

I have a big weekend so might not be around till Sunday afternoon, ask duckling when that is if timezones are an issue.

[Sando]

i can see the "there's a chance that tw doesn't die and then we get more seer results" thing but i would rthare just fucking lynch scum every day

sooner we end wolves sooner the game goes nightless

Lynch AP today - tomorrow we have no info on buddy
Lynch someone else today - we lynch with no info on buddy

How does the order change the speed at which we kill wolves?

Also, duckling wants to leash the WW, make an agreement that if we can hit the buddy today then AP shoots someone else overnight.

[Sando]

AP is selling a lemon. It's too good a deal for town except for two things: He'll 100% shoot TW tonight, and it'd be ballsy for AP to nominate his WW partner, so fuggo is mafia/town.

Best outcome for town at this point is WWs dead end of tomorrow...we should lynch someone with at least a chance of being WW, that aint fuggo imo.

[Sando]

yea na lynching mafia today is optimal

You mean "more fun" or "optimal"? Cause...yeah nah, that word doesn't mean what you think it means.

[Sando]

but we have a guaranteed wolf lynch for later days >:

getting the non-AP WW today is unequivocally the optimal play. Unlikely and thus potentially makes other plays more viable, but our 100% best outcome is to get a WW today. Getting directed away from a WW lynch hurts town, which is what fugly is.

[Sando]

VOTE: not_mafia

Imo it's piggy. AP was conspicuous in "we should wait for a flip but I can totes read NM" and is flatly refusing to shoot NM. My worry is that I firmly believe AP plans to kill the baby duck tonight, so I don't really see a reason for the hard out defiance about NM, especially given the offer was to said baby duck who was always likely to choose a piggy.

He's also voted both baby duck and AP since the claim has come up, without any input into this whole discussion.

[Sando]

and of course. there is this fun fact. Some one recently finally pointed something out that I could not myself given the situation. The only upside to not lynching AP is to have a chance to lynch the other WW. So either someone needs to come up with a really good call on that, or literally I think the play would be to (and I already know how this is gonna sound)... but the play is to remove "conf!Mafia" and "conf!Town" and lynch in that pool. which, as they will kill TW tonight either way... is probably the best play.

Why couldn't you point it out? All I pointed out is that lynching the non-wolf person is a bad idea right now. That's something that benefits both town and mafia, and it's not like I feel people should TR me for saying it, I'd say it as both Mafia and Town.

I feel like we're deep enough into the AP train to say this: Mafia want AP lynched today. That guarantees they're safe from todays lynch and with TW dying overnight they're safe from the overnight kill, and they're left with one WW to lynch before they're safe from NKs.

The fact that you, fuggo, are worried about how it'll look to speculate on something yet also pushing the Mafia play, says to me you're very likely Mafia here.

That said, I'm happy to look elsewhere than NM for the other WW today.

[Sando]

Fumuki, ruby red, sando: tw would probably have been dreaded last night

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for last night, but if you're considering me as WW still then your powers of deduction need serious work.

Honestly I tend to see ruby's point by now.

[Sando]

tbh i just want to hammer ap right now but i know the ducky wants to do some weird plan that i don't think actually works

@ducky am i hammering or nah

Is NM an option for you today or nah?

I'm pretty happy to hit skitter today after the last few pages too if that helps. I'm pretty convinced UD is a bad lynch today for town, reasonably likely to be Mafia but only a 1%er on WW, and town giving up any shot of getting WW today is bad for us.

[Sando]

If it isn't AP I want it to be one of {UD/Sando/Pine/NM}.

zzzz

VOTE: Skitter30

[Sando]

Skitter30 and Ruby and Pine

+Sandizzle

Pretty sure all I'm good for is single handedly losing the game D1 apparently

[Sando]

still love u tho
also answer my question!!!

Mafia is most likely on the AP wagon, we've achieved a lot of sorting today regardless, it's just that people won't actually think about this logically yet.

I mean me winning the game for town wasn't what was holding us back in 720, that was the easy bit...but I don't appear to have the same "quality" of players here so yeah we can get a town win out of this

[Sando]

if I call someone obvious town don't lynch them >:

Who's obv-town that you think I'm gonna lynch?

One thing you can't accuse me of is being good at leading a lynch anyway, so you probably don't need to stress about me there

[Sando]

I think that UD is almost for sure some flavor of scum, but never with AP, so that points to mafia.

Why have you been pushing for UD to die today then?

[Sando]

If it isn't AP I want it to be one of {UD/Sando/Pine/NM}.

Because of this.

You're floundering here. AP is a pointless lynch since we have all the information on him and you've acknowledged here that you at least have a passing understanding of that.

I've been pointing out for a few IRL days now that lynching UD is bad since he's highly unlikely to be the WW, and you agree he's unlikely to be WW yet still list him as a prime non-AP lynch. This shows lack of understanding of why that matters, since it's bad for town to lynch someone we're very sure isn't WW since we then give up any possibility of having the wolves dead EOD tomorrow.

You're throwing shade at AP, and I'm starting to think it's distancing, whilst also going along with his anti-town plan without acknowledging that fact.

[Sando]

I list a pool of four people, so again, why are you acting like I'm specifically pushing UD when I didn't specify which one I preferred.

Yes I'm specifically positing that you're wolf here.

Another person listed as me, and following logic I'm also clearly not wolf here. So that's 50% right there that you think we should potentially lynch if AP isn't the option who are very unlikely to flip wolf, as anyone looking at this with any degree of reasoning would conclude. That's a bad outcome for town.

You're not using reasoning based on the information before you. It's either townie refusing to adjust their thinking, or it's scum looking to take advantage of the situation. Due to the refusal of you to even acknowledge that lynching people who are basically conf!not-wolf is a bad idea for town here is telling me it's scum motivated rather than town.

[Sando]

Scum is on AP wagon 100% of the time. Coinflippy whether they bus or not but like hey mafia literally HAVE to be on it.

What's the wolf-partner do with the AP wagon you think?

[Sando]

Gimme a current VC? kinda vomiting thoughts as I have them as I have until Arc next appears to finish this

You hammered, was at L-1 top of page 63 and only person to vote since then was me and you, and I wasn't on the AP wagon.

AP - , ceejayvinoya, Fumuki, UglyDuck, Pine, Not_Mafia (L-1)

[Sando]

Fumuki>Fugglez>CJV for mafia on wagon

I would normally poo poo 2xMafia on a wagon but with a guilty on a different faction that lynching means they're safe from both todays lynch and tonights kill...yeah I'd believe they're both on there.

Still flopping around on what a wolf does.

[Sando]

mint

I apologise for not purguing this word from my vocabulary pls insert "lit" in its place

Mint as bro

[Sando]

CAPSFUMUKI IS BACK

Sorry AP you know if I had the say I'd run with your insane plans every time.

This feels like I'm playing with Quick again...and now you're leaving me

Honestly hope, for my sanity, that Fumuki is scum here.

[Sando]

AND YOU DARE TO CALL PEOPLE TRYING TO LYNCH CONFIRMED SCUM, SCUMMY.

The fact that you think Mafia would hesitate for one fucking second to lynch confirmed WW today is possibly the stupidest thing I've heard all year...and I've heard a lot of stupid things.

[Sando]

I have no problem being lynched tomorrow

You're not tomorrow's lynch, so congrats.

[Sando]

Yes he is

You're taking Fumu to endgame this time aren't you?

[Sando]

Fuggo is lockscum

So?

[Sando]

Nah, multiball

[Sando]

There's a single wolf alive and we're going with the person that the dead wolf thought was yesterdays best lynch?

VOTE: Skitter30

[Sando]

Ok, again, explain why you think I'm the wolf here. Like, how does my behavior actually match up with what you think wolves would have been doing throughout the game?

Given that every player has done something that doesn't really make sense as AP partner we have to give credit to that person and we can't explain all actions as being wolf motivated. So we have to look at the preponderance of evidence.

The evidence against you is your play around APs claim yesterday. You didn't join the AP wagon which would be either thoughtful town or wolf, since town+mafia are going to want confirmed wolf killed. That leaves this particular tell as pointing towards you, Ruby and myself. I know I'm not scum, and I think I'm particularly anti-wolf, and between you and Ruby I think Ruby expressed a better grasp of the dynamics yesterday, indicating it's more likely thoughtful town from them.

There's other indicators that also apply to others, but I'd like more people to post before I muddy those waters.

You're right though, early(er) pressure on AP is not WW indicative, but I'm also aware that distancing exists in this game.

[Sando]

What happened to the capslock bandit?

[Sando]

does literally no one other than the cow want to comment on my idea like literally at all?

Oh right, terrible idea. You're not wolf and both mafia and town are motivated to hunt for wolf right now. By abrogating your responsibility all you're doing is harming towns ability to mafia-hunt using your associations, hence CJ is correct that it's more like to come from scum.

[Sando]

The most charitable way I can view you misrepping me like this is that you literally haven't been reading the game ... but you haven't displayed ignorance like this about the gamestate before, which makes it kinda hard to believe that this is what's happening here.

I've found the 'dumb or scum' tell works fairly decently on players that don't seem dumb in a general sense tbh.

Aaaaaand yet you follow this by voting the person arguably least likely to be the last wolf alive...

[Sando]

I am also allowing town to use me as a tool. While the idea may harm the ability to skum hunt that is not all it does. Also you are being bias on the basis that i am mafia. I know i am town therefore the idea has much more meeit to me. A thought to be considered honestly in regards to upsides Vs downsides.

No, I'd rather see how you interact with others and get info about that in the event of your flip that we can use to lynch Mafia, rather than just having an extra vote that "town" can use.

[Sando]

I'm kinda ambivalent wrt voting ud or sando, but ud has a vote on him so I'll vote there for now. I strongly believe that there are associatives between the two of them.

So you go for the person that is also pretty much confirmed not-wolf...this is why I'm not believing that you're understanding town. We want to kill wolf today, it's 100% the best option for town, and you're flailing around going for the most anti-wolf people in the game...

Still wanna know what happened to the capslock bandit.

[Sando]

Like you're saying that I'm scummy because I'm not voting someone who makes sense as a wolf because a wolf lynch is today's best lynch - yet you literally can't explain how the person you're voting makes sense as a wolf. Does that not seem a wee bit hypocritical or nonsensical to you?

I explained why it makes sense for you to be wolf, and you explained why it makes sense for you not to be wolf. They're not mutually exclusive, EVERYONE in the game both makes sense and doesn't make sense as wolf to certain extent.

Good to know that if I'm ever in a game with you that if I vote my partner then you'll never ever ever ever consider me as their scumpartner. Top notch play there...

[Sando]

This is a blatant lie and the basis of your reasoning for why I'm a wolf.

Oh ffs, seriously? I'm talking post AP-offer, not pre. They're different parts of the game and conflating the two is just stupid, stop it.

[Sando]

im interacting with you calling out a player that doesn't interact a lot on this point.

VOTE: vote: sando

I mean that's one way to avoid voting your partner, sure.

[Sando]

How the fuck is being offwagon *after* his offer (when nearly everyone accepted that he was getting lynched that day at that point) more relevant than being on his wagon *before* the guilty was outed?

Wolf gives plan that appears relatively pro-town (but isn't)

Mafia

- shit yeah, lynch the confirmed wolf, no-one can have a problem with us doing that, and then we know for sure that we won't be the NK, let's do it!

Unthinking town

- shit yeah, lynch the confirmed wolf

Thinking town

- uhhh, that's a bad plan, let's lynch the other wolf now and maybe some good stuff happens, otherwise we're no worse off

Wolf

- uhhhh...wait can I follow my partners stated plan? Wait should I bus? Wait should I do what the thinking town are saying?

Then you follow that by today insisting on lynching people who can basically only possibly be Mafia if they're scum, despite acknowledging that lynching wolf is by far and away best strategy for town.

[Sando]

The guy jumps off because "Duck wants to drag out the day", after saying this:

because there's a guilty on him? If there's no benefit to delaying I don't see why we don't just lynch him? Like if AP isn't lynched today I still think that TW almost always gets killed here -> I think the wolves will find it more beneficial to just let AP go than to let TW have another night to get a result.

It's in direct conflict with me, who was in vehement agreement with the Duckling in at least the sense that we look elsewhere of AP.

Skitter SCREAMED lack of understanding about the situation, followed by leaving a wagon with poor reasoning.

You (CJ), me, NM and apparently Skitter all should know Ducklings PR game given we recently played one with him. A) It didn't match his PR game from 720 at least, even his D1 softclaim was significantly lighter touch than that game and B) why does only Skitter get credit? Hell NM very recently killed Duckling as PR...does that confirm him as not-wolf to you here?

[Sando]

@Sando skitter isn't wolf. You do understand that skitter knows how the worst plays as pr? If skitter is wolf, the worst would probably be dead at night 1.

I also literally pushed this point with Duckling yesterday, specifically in reference to NM given he'd recently killed it, but yeah Duckling himself refused to give non-wolf cred to people for not killing him.