Large Normal 212: Korts' Geriatrics - Game Over @1831

[Kison]

/confirm

[Kison]

VOTE: Old Man

Look at that avatar and try to tell me it's not scum.

[Kison]

I'm with Pine that the wagon on Eddie over the confirmation thing is silly.

Don't like Axel's Pine vote or post 67. Looks like he's trying way too hard to explain it away.

UNVOTE: Old Man
VOTE: Axelrod

Sup. Who else besides Pine & Eddie do you not like?

[Kison]

VOTE: Old Man

Look at that avatar and try to tell me it's not scum.

I strongly agree with this reasoning, this avatar is indeed scum. Kison is town for this.

VOTE: Old Man

On a more serious note, I genuinely am liking this post; there are a few reasons why I picked this avatar, one of which was to garner reactions and as a sort of social experiment to hypothesize if it would result in a policy lynch, or, at the least, a couple of RVS votes. And, those votes would more likely than not come from town, under the theory that scum would not blatantly vote for another player with such obviously flimsy reasoning, in order to keep up some facade of self-preservation.

I see, I see.

UNVOTE: Axelrod
VOTE: Old Man

How do you like this one?

[Kison]

I don't get the Old Man srs, its clearly a gimmick alt look at his fuckin name lmao. I guarantee someone in this game knows who it is and told him to sign up, because the signups were quick asf and what are the odds someone who hasn't been here in so long doesn't remember his PW and checks the site right for the geriatric signups and moreover picks the name "Old Man". His angleshooting with the avi feels genuine though I think its bunk. His catchup and pushes align well and they feel genuine too. Someone finally acknowledges whats happening in 110, and I don't think scum does that.

I don't think it says much one way or another whether he was invited, saw the game by chance, or knew the game was coming up & deliberately made an alt. Avatar gimmick seemed slimy & schmoozey. If it was an off the cuff, brief remark, I'd probably agree with you. His chamber push was pretty over the top & didn't seem genuine to me.

I think he's funny though.

VOTE: Old Man

Look at that avatar and try to tell me it's not scum.

I strongly agree with this reasoning, this avatar is indeed scum. Kison is town for this.

VOTE: Old Man

On a more serious note, I genuinely am liking this post; there are a few reasons why I picked this avatar, one of which was to garner reactions and as a sort of social experiment to hypothesize if it would result in a policy lynch, or, at the least, a couple of RVS votes. And, those votes would more likely than not come from town, under the theory that scum would not blatantly vote for another player with such obviously flimsy reasoning, in order to keep up some facade of self-preservation.

I see, I see.

UNVOTE: Axelrod
VOTE: Old Man

How do you like this one?

We're past the point for jokes like that. Move forward, not backward.

Show me the way forward, Messiah & maybe I'll move. But you gotta do a better job than you did with Tywin because I ain't seein' it.

[Kison]

Kison's reaction

- Is the only opinion you have really that it's "silly"? No more details than that? Nothing on the people on the wagon?

Umm, not really. Most of the wagon came on the first page of the game. I don't really have much to say about the first five votes.

Chamber's is the only vote that looks a little sketchy since it was the sixth, a naked vote & came later. Even so, it's pretty uninteresting to me. He acknowledges later it's entirely meta based. He'd gotten on Axel for similar reasons to me. His spar with Old Man is more interesting than the six Eddie votes.

My biggest takeaway from it is what I've already said: Axel, who didn't actually join the wagon but sorta kinda condoned it & threw his vote in with Pine instead. It really did read as "I don't want to be #7 on this thing."

I kinda want to just flashwagon Kison and see what happens when he has to do something other than coast.

I'm ramping up slowly & taking this in managable chunks so I don't burn out. I ain't making this game a painful chore. If ya'll stopped compulsively submitting epic novel-sized posts every time you checked in, it'd certainly help.

But a flash wagon could be very enlightening!

[Kison]

My biggest takeaway from it is what I've already said: Axel, who didn't actually join the wagon but sorta kinda condoned it & threw his vote in with Pine instead. It really did read as "I don't want to be #7 on this thing."

But alignment-wise, how do you interpret not wanting to be #7 on that thing? To me, that seems to make sense for any permutation of alignments, but this post gives me the impression you have a specific takeaway you're drawing from it.

Sure, that's fair to say. Considering the vote would have put Eddie at L-1 on page 3, it would make sense not to place it.

What I don't like is the level of effort he goes into explaining his disdain for Eddie if he's not intending to vote. He spends more time talking about it than Pine. He's "almost ready to actually believe that" Eddie confirmed in the scum PT, but also says "it's thin."

Anyway I'll give this game a proper read tomorrow.

[Kison]

Spent the past 3 hours reading this game slowly instead of skimming and only made it to page 7 . Lots of people were entirely forgettable. Will finish & reread again coming from another angle.

For now, Old Man is still where I want my vote. Just about everything about his play rubs looks off since his... grand debut...
- Calling me town for my RVS vote of him is nutso. He spent an paragraph explaining it like it was some grand revelation.
- Then voting Chamber when his vote was basically identical to mine. His entire spat with chamber makes him look pretty bad actually.
- Big bad posts, lots of fluff. Why bring up the topic of alts & write a novel on it when it's not really relevant anymore? MoI's post #

140

reflects closely what I thought of it when I saw it.

Just about the only thing I agree with him on is not liking the Eddie wagon.

Axel's later posts look better. Nothing particular stood out other than those 2 early posts where he votes Pine. However, one thing I don't like is despite a high level of content, he seems pretty reluctant to take strong stances. There's Pine/Eddie & "chamber is a bit dodgy" in response to my earlier question. Has anything changed here?

Firebringer's walls stood out & leave a lot to be desired.

Firebringer:

Who besides MoI do you think is scum?? Your read on him is cRaZeE IMO. I made it through your posts. Somehow. I still have no idea where you stand on pretty much anything else except wanting a Pine town block. And you like Chamber. I don't think you're trying.

I'm sleepy.

[Kison]

Echoing Pine, no point lynching Old Man today if we'll see whether his claim is legit tomorrow. I'm also skeptical of it.

UNVOTE: Old Man
VOTE: Firebringer

I've got a rope with your name on it, boi. Tell me who the scum are. Besides MoI.

I would also like to see KMD commit to a vote. You've not had one placed since Eddie.

Well, you are not likely to get "strong" stances from me on D1, at least as it concerns people's alignments. The most I usually feel is "okay" or "suspicious" about someone. It's actually a pet peeve of mine when people act positive about votes they have no business being positive about. We know almost nothing. Once there have been a few flips I tend to get more confident.

I don't expect certainty & of course there's not a ton to go on. But I mean "strong" in a relative sense here & I'd expect some people to stand out a lot more than others. The last time I asked, the only person you had much to say anything about is Chamber. Has anyone else stood out to you?

Kison, is PyP the last game you played?

It is! The last game I played before that was a Team Mafia game by Vi in 2012.

[Kison]

KISON: I like your vote on me and I approve it with all he fire I got. Which is like three fire stars. I think your vote on me is strangely accusing me of same thing your guilty of in other word not trying, but I concede that I am also not trying very hard because this game isn’t extremely engaging to me. I’ll try to get into mindset of it being that way but it will take time. Keep the vote up maybe I’ll do something

I certainly wasn't trying until I read the game two days ago. Every time I open this game I immediately want to dust off the XBox. But your wall posts looked like fake effort & your reads... well, the like two that you have... don't add up.

Right now gonna sheep Eddie even though he is pushing soma slot I think is Town.

Do you have that much faith in Eddie's scumhunting abilities??

Come on, now. Your post gave me nothing new. Give me your top picks for scum, even if it's off the cuff.

But KMD gets my vote for yet another post that avoids him directly addressing Eddie’s reasoning for voting him and whether it is valid or not and the side of for the “Dog Ate My Homework”.

VOTE: KMD

Similarly, would join this wagon. KMD, seriously. Why are you still not voting after all this time? Even with the post you lost & subsequent halfway catchup reread, I'd expect you to at least be able to summarize your thought process & vote.

Hito:

Tywin has not really pinged my scumdar at all this entire game, so I'm trying to figure out what you're going after here. Is this accurate?
- Post 99 seems fabricated / fake.
- Fencesitting on Pine/Eddie, low post:content ratio, maybe they're probably scum together.
- Going after the Eddie voters while having Eddie as a null read.

Tywin:

Your post 255 doesn't tell me much about how you view Axel/PJ's play since your prior post. It seems like a lazy carryover from before. So:
- You went after Axel for similar reasons to me. I'm curious to see if there's anything since your

post 99

about his play that reinforces your decision to include him in your scum pool.
- Same question but regarding PJ.

People I want to review individually off the top of my head: Insanity, PJ, Axelrod.

[Kison]

Tywin's latest post is pretty awful. First, because he still isn't doing any kind of analysis and is simply engaging in the exact same narrow argument & ignoring everything else in the game, including where I directly address him. This was his "catch up" post so I would expect him to be talking about more. This suggests to me he's not really trying to figure anything out despite the appearance of effort. He's just digging into the same Hito and Axel argument and that's it.

Secondly, and I think more importantly, what Hito pointed out about his inconsistent read on Eddie read is true. In the first two paragraphs, he makes it seem like he's 100% certain the Eddie wagon is scum-driven and that this nearly 100% of the time happens against a town player. In other words, he's pretty damn bullish on the idea of Eddie being town.

I maintain that stance still, and because the fact that both got wagons first, going as far as L1 or L2 almost immediately makes me assume it was scum driven 100%.

...and what I've seen in nearly every single game aside from a very small minority is that the first wagon or two is almost always on town. If the wagon is a bullshit case, it's almost 100% on town. I assume this in every single game, because it's a simple fact.

When it comes to attacking Hito, he's not nearly as bullish:

Its possible Eddie is your scum buddie too based on how you both ignored him in favor of Pine, but that's only if you flip scum first.

If you vote one of them, I think it should be based on their responses, not the confirmation thing, and in that situation, Eddie looks scummier of the two. He didn't even join the game until later, while Pine looked pretty upfront about the situation from the start. You TR Eddie though and went after Pine (along with Axel mostly) almost 100%, rather than also look at Eddie at all.

Magma: looks like you're asking me why I don't SR Eddie, not because of the wagon, but because his responses were bad? Well, I agree with you. He did look fairly scummy at the start, although he did start playing after. I just see the wagon on him and Pine as being scummier based on what specific players did with it, plus what they are still trying to do with it. I see both wagons as being scum driven, although if one of them were scum, my guess is it would be Eddie. That's based on pairing Axel/Hito going after only Pine. Notice that Axel and Hito ignored Eddie entirely and went hard after Pine instead, although their reasoning should've also fit Eddie just as much. Both failed to confirm in the thread, so why give one a pass and not the other?

This is very inconsistent, in the exact same post.

UNVOTE: Firebringer
VOTE: Tywin Lannister

I know there's more on this page & some people asked me questions but this caught my attention & now it's late as hell. I'll address other stuff tomorrow. For now, I want to hear more from Tywin. I want to see him address the inconsistency above & talk about other players in the game beyond this little back and forth. I'd also like to see him talk more about PJ & Axel, particularly their play since post 99. They're in his scum list but he's not said anything new about them since very early in the game.

[Kison]

Explain your read on the chamber vote better.

My vote & Chamber's on Old Man were practically the same. The only difference is I joked about Old Man's avatar looking scummy. He came up with the BS about town reading me yet went after Chamber's because his vote was blank. Inconsistent & he read way too much into something trivial.

Kison, what specifically about firebringer's posts doesn't add up?

When I took the time to read the game thoroughly, his posts stood out & looked like fake effort. He had very few actual opinions on the game. The only strong read that I could pick out was scum on MoI which I don't see at all. This could be his playstyle. I don't know. I wanted to get more out of him mainly.

i don't like the tywin wagon

Definitely curious to see what you don't like about it.

i could go for a lynch on hitogoroshi or Tywin if this day gets too long and we compromise between the two.

Don’t really like either of their postings up till now and don’t think I will get any quality read either since I don’t really want to read any of their posts either.

What don't you like about their posting? How can you not like it if you aren't even reading them?

Kison why is ur vote not on muah

I could move back. You're not my favorite pick for the day though. My vote in part was to motivate you in the event you're just super lazy, unmotivated town but I don't think it did much to help. Anyway, Tywin is a better lynch.

Looking forward to seeing where KMD's vote lands. Less eager to join his wagon for the moment.

[Kison]

Then there's a sequence where he, for lack of better words, "sucks up" to MoI a bit.

MoI - No? You're fantastic when scum, so I don't thoroughly trust my TR of you. Take that as the compliment it is intended.

It also deserves to be said that I *want* you to be Town. We universally work well together when we're on the same side.

Hey Old Man.

Be less smug and condescending. If you're so out of touch you don't have any idea who Magna is, you definitely need to fuck off of your high horse.

And proceeds to sheep MoI with a vote for Old Man after. None of that feels particularly Townie to me either.

This seems pretty weak to me. I don't see those posts as sucking up, or at least, I don't think scum-Pine would be foolish enough to think he could manipulate town-MoI that way. Why do you think his vote was sheeping?

I'd like to know what you think about Firebringer's posting as well.

[Kison]

Axel:

You ducking me???

Congrats Pine!

Then there's a sequence where he, for lack of better words, "sucks up" to MoI a bit.

MoI - No? You're fantastic when scum, so I don't thoroughly trust my TR of you. Take that as the compliment it is intended.

It also deserves to be said that I *want* you to be Town. We universally work well together when we're on the same side.

Hey Old Man.

Be less smug and condescending. If you're so out of touch you don't have any idea who Magna is, you definitely need to fuck off of your high horse.

And proceeds to sheep MoI with a vote for Old Man after. None of that feels particularly Townie to me either.

This seems pretty weak to me. I don't see those posts as sucking up, or at least, I don't think scum-Pine would be foolish enough to think he could manipulate town-MoI that way. Why do you think his vote was sheeping?

I'd like to know what you think about Firebringer's posting as well.

[Kison]

I'm still very happy with my Tywin vote. Him flaking out makes me feel even better about it. I see Firebringer has some votes on him now. I'd consider switching back but I'm happier where I am for the time being. None of the other wagons particularly interest me right now.

Having trouble seeing the PetroleumJelly scum reads. Someone mentioned earlier they scum read him because he's throwing out a lot of questions. I quickly looked at some of his other games and it seems to be pretty standard for his play style. Someone else mentioned they didn't like his vote #5 on Eddie. Is that it?

rofl: Could you at least quickly explain why you don't like the Tywin wagon? Is it the people on it? What do you think about his posts in the game so far?

[snip]
This is very inconsistent, in the exact same post.

UNVOTE: Firebringer
VOTE: Tywin Lannister

Could you please explain how tywin couldn't hold all of those positions at the same time? It think he can without contradiction. doesn't mean they are all right, just that he is consistent.

It's an inconsistency of his mindset. I think Hito said it better than me: look at the extremity of his language. In the first half where he's defending his decision to go after the Eddie wagon voters, he's acting like there's little to no chance of Eddie being scum. He even uses the term "100%" twice. But when it comes to justifying his read on Hito being scum, that extreme confidence no longer is there. That's fishy to me & sounds like the foundation for his Eddie read isn't really genuine.

It's too bad he flaked out because I was looking forward to his followup.

[Kison]

I'm still very happy with my Tywin vote. Him flaking out makes me feel even better about it. I see Firebringer has some votes on him now. I'd consider switching back but I'm happier where I am for the time being. None of the other wagons particularly interest me right now.

I think I’m his solo vote right now re Fire FYI.

Why do you think Twyin flaking is aligment indicative?

True. I guess I saw you asking Eddie to join & mis-remembered that as a second vote. Either way, my statement stands!

For Tywin, could be confirmation bias, but each of his posts looked harder to explain away. Easiest way out is just to flake. However, after thinking about it a bit more I'm less inclined to think the flaking means much. (1) Game

is

painful to keep up with. (2) Looks like he hasn't posted in his other games either. Very possible he just site flaked altogether. (3) Also just saw Eddie say he got prodded in his other game when he got prodded here the first time, so there's that as well.

Having trouble seeing the PetroleumJelly scum reads. Someone mentioned earlier they scum read him because he's throwing out a lot of questions. I quickly looked at some of his other games and it seems to be pretty standard for his play style. Someone else mentioned they didn't like his vote #5 on Eddie. Is that it?

his questions are generally just shit though, and about half his content this game is asking me bad questions while voteparking me.

Alright. I think I see you, KMD & Firebringer all scum reading him. Making it a self-imposed homework assignment to read through his posts next. Nothing really stood out to me on my read through the game.

I'm also a bit underwhelmed with Lycan's catchup post.

rofl: plz don't flake out I was looking forward to playing with you & why's the Tywin wagon bad???

[Kison]

I'll be on a train to New York this afternoon so can focus on this game. Read about half of PJ's posts & so far not seeing the scum reads. Also sad that he replaced out & that we haven't gotten any rofl ownage yet.

[Kison]

i think tywin is town.

I'm still curious to see why you think Tywin is town. Is it the people who pushed him or something about how he's played?

I'll read what you said about Axel more thoroughly when I have time. Which may not be until early next week. Like I get what you're saying about the "talking points" but I want to compare this to how he's played in other games.

Finished PJ's posts. Still don't really get the scum reads on him. Main takeaway from it is all is with how he replaced out it seems really unlikely he & Eddie are scum together.

[Kison]

Here & reading up now. Realistically, I don't see myself voting anyone besides Axel or staying on Lycan at this point. I like the composition of the Axel wagon better but feel better about Lycan being scum, so going to focus on Axel in catching up.

[Kison]

Sorry for not being around more. Any accusation of me "flying under the radar" is fully deserved as every time I've tried to spend more than 5 minutes on this game this past week I have been pulled away.

Anyway. I'm still deciding whether I want to move to Axel. At this point I am leaning towards yes. I think he's one of the better lynches for the day & I am skeeved out by my company on the Lycan wagon. I know we're getting close to deadline but a few things that popped up while I've looked over this the past several days:

So, this is just my biggest concern about Magna, who I have a lot of respect for as a player, and it's that he's been kind of pushing some weak cases, and some of his reads just seem off to me.

Which weak cases do you think Magna is pushing? Which reads seem off to you? Did any of this bother you before he decided to vote you?

MoI:

My main reluctance in switching is MoI going from "I will not vote Axel today" to doing just that. Magna, I don't get an overwhelming sense of confidence in you scum reading Axel in

638

, but rather less confident in your town read from earlier in the game & semi reluctantly moving in order to consolidate votes. Would you say this is accurate? How would you line him up against Lycan/Tywin? Lastly, I see you played with Axel in Clash of Kings: would you say his scum hunting here differs from that game, where he was town?

[Kison]

Here & reading up now. Realistically, I don't see myself voting anyone besides Axel or staying on Lycan at this point. I like the composition of the Axel wagon better but feel better about Lycan being scum, so going to focus on Axel in catching up.

Found rofl's buddy ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Look man Rofl & I are bros but we ain't buddies.

Please elaborate? Who do you think is skeevy?

You, KMD & Old Man are three people I've had an off vibe towards while reading the game. I can't say the same of those voting Axel, with the exception of Magna's sudden turnaround I mentioned in my previous post. Couple that with Axel's wagon being more resistant & I find myself questioning the wisdom of remaining on this train.

[Kison]

hito and kison i swear you guys are giving me the biggest case of blue balls just switch wagons already

I'm here for you baby.

UNVOTE: Lycanfire
VOTE: Axelrod

Will switch back if need be to avoid a no lynch.

Magna: I saw that Axel had slid down in your reads but it seemed minor, so it was still a little surprising to see you vote him after your earlier comment. I get that he's not your top pick & that the deadline is looming, though.

[Kison]

VOTE: insanity018

Happy to park my vote here for now.

[Kison]

How would you rank your current scum reads, Insanity?

[Kison]

I'll give Old Man a little bit longer to post before switching over. But yeah, if he does not confirm that claim he is the clear lynch for the day.

How would you rank your current scum reads, Insanity?

What happened to our promised workhorsing guy?

Look man, laziness is a way of life.

Of every player's posting in the game, I felt that Kison is the player that I should be most mind melding with. He hasn't posted a lot, but he seemed to have a strong focus on pressuring rofl in relation to the Tywin read/wagon 367 441 495 567 609. This is something that I have focused a lot on as well.

Now, roflcoptor has still not provided any meaningful explanation on anything to do with his read of Tywin. Yet, for Kison, this hasn't translated into a scumread of rofl.

I actually wasn't pressuring Rofl. I've played with him before so I know he's very loose. Tywin was my best idea for scum on day 1. I wanted to see if he saw something that could change my mind. He didn't do a very good job.

I don't have much reason to suspect rofl is scum right now but I'm definitely paranoid he could be because I really don't want him to be.

Later, Kison moves onto a wagon being cheerled by Rofl (Axel wagon) and implies he has no issues with rofl (776).

Very accurate.

Instead, Kison now finds me skeevy or off.

I've actually felt this way since my first reread. I don't have anything tangible to point at, it's more your tone than anything. I'll read you in isolation at some point to see if I can draw anything specific.

[Kison]

UNVOTE: insanity018
VOTE: Old Man

I like that you changed your avatar to reflect the fake claim that you just retracted. Plz give me more town cred for pointing this out.

[Kison]

UNVOTE: Old Man

I could definitely see both being scum. I think both town is pretty unlikely. I also think Old Man scum & Lycan town is unlikely - it would require a similar role or downright guessing.

If we want to resolve this today, lynching Lycan is the better move, but I am going to think it over a bit more.

Old Man, your explanation for fake claiming yesterday is loonyville. You said you did it because (1) You didn't want to get roleblocked and (2) You wanted to survive the day. You were at just four votes and not in any real danger of being lynched when you claimed. And what led you to believe you had a particularly great chance of being roleblocked. So great that it warranted lying and likely being lynched the next day by failing to hit scum with your supposed role?

I'm trying to understand why you would play your role this way as town and am having a hard time seeing it.

[Kison]

Sure, it would make sense to ask rofl for an explanation once or twice to see if he could change your mind.

But after rofl is clearly not willing to give an explanation, why continue to keep asking for an explanation, if you didn't find rofl suspicious at all?

Meant to respond to this yesterday:

Rofl was basically not playing the game, so I kept asking. Once he started playing & still didn't answer is when I figured he was just vibing & had no tangible reason.

Why? Because I wanted an answer. For the reason I stated before. I'm not sure what's weird about this.

[Kison]

so what i am saying is that if old man is a gunsmith there is likely to be ar red herring in the setup, other than the pgo. thus, a half cop that mirrors the half gunsmith is elegant and ticks the red herring box making it the kind of excellent design i would expect from my dawg korts.

That's actually a good point & makes me think the Old Man-town/Lycan-scum scenario makes less sense. They could still both be scum & gambitting.

I'm wondering if our best move is to let this play out and get more info over the coming days. It's what I'm leaning towards right now.

Old Man:

still want you to explain to me why you thought you had such a great chance of being roleblocked that fake claiming would be a stellar move.

Did you expect that eventually rofl would give a sufficient answer?

Maybe. It's why I asked.

[Kison]

YO! Still alive.

So in summary your posts today look to me like scum pretending to scum-hunt with soft questioning and little follow-through when players don’t respond to your questions.

I'd say this is how I felt when I reread the first 12 pages of the game.

Insanity

: Why should I not vote you again & who should I go after instead? Is the MoI / Rofl dream team a lie? Are they scum running a mislynch train on you? Come on, instill a want in me.

That sketchy old man baby guy thing should be coming back from his V/LA today & he's got some things to answer for.

[Kison]

Old Man:

still want you to explain to me why you thought you had such a great chance of being roleblocked that fake claiming would be a stellar move.

I could not tolerate the risk that I get nightkilled or get roleblocked, being likely the sole investigative and thus the most powerful role in the game (under the assumption that Lycan is scum). Also, I believe in my stellar scumhunting abilities to be able to lock-down a scum with a single use of my ability the next day, giving me the obvious town status that would rival that of a confirmed-town Innocent Child.

So what made you decide to claim

when

you did?

Look at Eddie Cane's math. The odds of Lycan being scum are 3/15, three times more than if he was a "Cop" (and this assumes there is even a cop in this game). What else could he have claimed after being guiltied by my result? It is the only viable move that scum can do.

I get it. Scum would make that claim. It doesn't guarantee he's scum, though. I agree that (1) his play is scummy as hell and (2) the odds of you getting a guilty on town(if you're not lying) seem pretty unlikely. However, mechanically his role

does

make sense to exist in the game & I'm also a paranoid person. I'd rather wait it out another day & see if we get more information from this shitshow than risk lynching what could be a legit & powerful town role. Tell me why this isn't a good idea.

Eddie: I'm gonna have to side with everyone else on the math thing. I get what you're trying to say. But like others have pointed out you're looking at this without considering mechanics.

Insanity: You disappoint.

Obviously

I'm going to vote whoever I like. Don't deflect this back on me. I'm not scared of your vote & weak-sauce coming after me & I've already been over why I think you may be scum. Yeah, it's gut & it's loose. I don't care as long as I'm right. But I could be wrong & part of me is paranoid that MoI & Rofl are scum toying with my heart because I'm only not fully into this game. If you're town, I don't want to be lynching you. So persuade me away. We have time here. You're doing a bad job so far.

Congrats on the good stuff IRL though.

[Kison]

@Mod, please replace me

For various reasons, I feel completely unmotivated to keep playing this game and have decided to quit playing mafia (again).

I hope you change your mind.

[Kison]

Tammy, please don't replace out. I appreciate the effort you're putting into the game, especially since I have been slacking hardcore. Don't let a little bit of snark & sideline critics chase you away - the different personalities are what make the game fun.

I plan to take a look at the Insanity game you posted tonight.

[Kison]

Alright, so. I really don't have time to spend hours wading through 50 pages, so I am just going to spit out whatever comes to mind on everyone in the game in hopes of getting things moving.

I'm willing to leave the Old Man / Lycanfire thing alone for at least one day. Not at all okay with just writing the slots off as town.

Rofl, Magna, & Tammy I feel reasonably okay with right now. I liked Ginngie's slot when it was PJ & it was one I had actually read through pretty thoroughly.

Pine & Eddie Cane are in the "meh" category, but I can't point out anything off the top of my head that screams scum.

This leaves Insanity, Firebringer & CooLDoG & Axelrod. I honestly kind of regretted switching to Axel yesterday. I was out & about on the day of the deadline, and only able to skim, but saw his last ditch effort to avoid being lynched. While not impossible for scum to do, I think in his shoes I would have been way more likely to just have given up. Read more as genuinely pissed at being mislynched. Okay with him living another day.

So the three I am eying at this particular moment:

Insanity: I don't really see the huge difference in the other game that Tammy was talking about. The replace out doesn't say much to me one way or another. Was on the KMD train. Would be okay with lynching.
Firebringer: I see basically nothing town about he's played & slot has been completely useless all game. Hammer on Firebringer, no mention of him prior.
CooLDog: Honestly I feel pretty similar about this slot, but at least he had some level of decent activity for a while. His KMD vote looked sort of forced.

VOTE: insanity018

Could move. Next thing I intend to do is look at everyone on the KMD wagon to see if anything slimy sticks out.

[Kison]

I'll spend some time on this game tonight, looking at the KMD wagon next. I was going to say we just lynch one of the flaking slots at this point, but it looks like that will resolve itself.

[Kison]

Thanks for replacing in, Momrangal. Super disappointed that so many people would flake out like this. On the upside, I'm glad it is the Insanity slot that got modkilled so far.

I'm here and reading up on the KMD wagon like I had planned to do on Friday, so should have more to say in a little bit.

[Kison]

Alright, I probably need to do this again but after isolating everyone who voted KMD, CooLDog, Firebringer, Pine & Ginngie are the four I like the least. CooLDog's was probably the slimiest hop on the wagon. Eddie & MoI were pretty consistent in going after KMD all day. Tammy kind of went back and forth but I think made sense ultimately.

VOTE: CooLDoG

Aside from being a crap slot in general, his vote on KMD was just lazy. Goes from null read & "let him catch up" to suddenly finding his iso terrible when he jumps on the wagon.

Probably will have questions for other KMD voters tomorrow. Also going to see who was around but decided to sit on the sidelines, because a wagon forming that quickly, I wouldn't expect all scum to just pile on.

[Kison]

Of course it looks weird when you quote it like that.

Rofl I will take a look at that but I dunno, I'm not feeling the whole Axel scum thing like I was before!

[Kison]

Sup OTM & Ray. Thanks for helping to revitalize the game!

Twyin / Lycan's I think is much more likely to be alignment indicative given the way both flaked.

What about Tywin's flake looked scummy to you? I thought the same thing initially but it looks like he legit just completely siteflaked.

I think Kison is bussing.

You gonna leave us all hanging on the details of this theory?

Looks like he thought KMD town Lycan scum.

Is this a prevailing thought? Does anyone agree lycan scum? Can someone summarize the Lucan case?

You need not look much further than Tywin's couple of posts to see why that slot is scummy. What little he played the game was super narrow wall posts of hogwash, mostly attacking Hito and justifying his early Eddie Cane town read & holding inconsistent views to do so.

I also think that, if there was an outstanding force that prevented the axle lynch from occurring, it isn't to much to point it out to me and ultimately help me get into a better mindset to the aura of this game

From memory it was mostly that there was a competing wagon on Twin/Lycan going. MoI also wasn't feeling the Axel wagon till later in the day. I don't recall anyone else explicitly opposing it but I could be forgetting someone.

I agree though, with whoever pointed out that Lycan & Axel both seemed pretty resistant while KMD went up in flames super quickly. That definitely has me worried.

UNVOTE: CooLDoG
VOTE: Pine

I'm cool with this wagon. Let's see where it goes. I thought Pine looked okay most of day 1 till he had to take his leave of absence, but I don't think he's giving the effort I'd expect from town. And I say that as town who has been pretty low effort all game. When I read his posts I don't get the idea that he is trying to figure out who the scum are. Not sure what to make of the soft claim. I don't know why he felt it was necessary to reveal all of this with what... you were at 3 votes? I'm not a mechanic junkie so I really don't know what it could be and honestly am not super interested by it either.

[Korts]

On why Tywin’s replace-out is a reasonable to be indicative of scum:

In a non-Open set-up a Town investigation role is pretty much the golden ticket to not being lynched, especially Day 1 unless you are playing in a game with really, really bad Town players. If you think this isn’t the case stop reading because your POV will never reconcile with mine. You can see evidence of the strength of an Investigation claim in OldMan’s continued survival today – even with his bad play and Day 1 IC fake-claim people generally are willing to let him live for at least a few days til his claim is busted or proves likely true.

So put yourself in Tywin’s shoes as hypothetical Town Even Night Cop on Day 1. He’s getting pressure and despite his attempts to explain his thoughts the pressure is not abating. Town Tywin knows regardless of how bad his play is he’s got his claim in his pocket. And as hypo-Town has to believe he will not get counterclaimed by scum because that is effectively a death sentence for one scum by Day 2 (setting aside the current potential conflict with OldMan’s claim which Day 1 was unknown).

Is it possible Tywin Town just decided the game wasn’t fun and flaked despite having a powerful Town role? Yes. Is it also possible that Tywin isn’t a Town Investigative role and felt flaking and getting a potential replacement halo for his slot was better served than trying to continue to fake hunting for scum in the face of pressure. There is enough reasonable scum motivation in the way Tywin’s flake developed that I am considering it as part of my overall read on that slot.

No replace out / flake is purely alignment indicative (and if it is that player should probably be banned for using Trust tells if it is Town indicative or quit playing Mafia if scum indicative). But the nature of Tywin’s flake given the subsequent claim by Lycan puts it as within the realm of reason.

I'd be more inclined to agree with you had his flake not been site-wide. It's hard to pin the replace out on this game going south when it wasn't limited to here.

Kison, if the difficulty of the two wagons worried you, why do you decide to go after pine, and not lycan who was the other person who had a hard time getting lynched?

I could be persuaded on Axel but I've been pretty back & forth on him all game. Last place I landed was regretting voting for him at end of yesterday with his last minute effort to avoid being lynched. I think there's a good case for him being scum, though, & he's doing that non-committal "not voting anyone for long periods of time" thing again.

For Lycan, by play alone I think that slot is the scummiest of anyone in the game right now. The impulsive side of me wants to lynch him now, but I can't see how it would be a good play in any way with the role he's claimed. We'll get more information by seeing what happens tonight.

Vote Count

(4) Pine - Momrangal, roflcopter, Kison, OnTheMark
(3) Lycanfire - Eddie Cane, Old Man, Ginngie
(1) Eddie Cane - Lycanfire
(1) Axelrod - MagnaofIllusion

not voting:

RayFrost, Axelrod, Pine

7 to lynch

Deadline is 6 PM EST on Friday the 29th of June.

[Kison]

I'd be more inclined to agree with you had his flake not been site-wide. It's hard to pin the replace out on this game going south when it wasn't limited to here.

Site-wide really only is relevant to the discussion IMO is if he replaced out of like 5 or 6 games simultaneously. What games did he replace / flake from Kison? Or was it a matter of him just not posting? If you did legwork to ascertain this I'd like to hear the details.

Why such a high number for it to be relevant?

No, he flaked. I looked at this a bit during day 1 because I initially read his replace-out as damning. When I said as much, Hito asked me why I thought it was alignment indicative and that's when I saw he had been in at least one other game and hadn't posted anywhere since May 5th. Didn't want to dwell on it too much because the one I saw was ongoing so it's grey area.

They're over now. He was in three: this game,

Mini 2004

(game ended in mod error 3 days after his last post) &

Maria's Anime Binge

.

[Kison]

Pine, that's a stellar case you've laid out there. You almost had me persuaded but I think I'm gonna have to hold off on joining you.

I hate to break it to you but you didn't prove your role. Anyone could toss out light breadcrumbs like that. The only way to prove that you actually have that role conclusively is for a power role to die first & you demonstrate you've gained their ability. And that doesn't even prove you're town.

Why you would choose to start revealing this when you did is baffling.

Sorry, Kison, I guess you answered that in part, but I don't see from your POV why Pine is a better vote

I don't know that he's better. These game days are incredibly long so I'm constantly feeling things out here since I don't know anything. We got to see Pine under some pressure. It wasn't very reassuring.

UNVOTE: Pine
VOTE: Axelrod

That's five by my count.

[Kison]

No, actually, he's not.

VOTE: LuckyOtter

I am a Tracker. Every night, not odd/even. I tracked LuckyOtter last night and he visited MoI.

I tracked Insanity Night 1. Didn't go anywhere.

[Kison]

We can take as long as we need to & talk about whatever we want to. As long as we lynch Otterscum today.

[Kison]

I dunno about mass claiming either to be honest.

Going to be rereading the wagons now that we finally have caught scum. First thing that strikes me is how much worse Rofl looks now. He pushed the Axel wagon perhaps harder than anyone else while the Tywin/Lycan wagon was a thing. He opposed Lycan lynch, would never say why. Today conveniently wants me lynched for pretty crap reasons, conveniently as Pine is lining up to go for me. The dream team may very well have been a lie as I worried all along. Keep an eye on this guy.

[Kison]

Otter probably did the kill because that slot has been on the chopping block ever since Hito started going after Tywin.

Since you're saying you think I'm scum with Otter, I assume you also think I'm lying about the tracking ability. We should be able to find a way to test my role again tonight.

[Korts]

I can understand people thinking this is a bus. It isn't. I don't understand OTM's conviction that it's the only scenario that makes sense.

What I can't fathom at all is Rofl thinking I am scum & Otter town. Voting me and citing MYLO indicates that he thinks I'm scum trying to seal a final mislynch to end the game. There's so much pointing to Otter as scum besides my result:
- Overall scummy play. If anyone can be bothered to reread anything. Just go back and read Tywin's back & forth with Hito. There's not much.
- Hito went after him, died.
- Old Man's result & the miraculously unlucky coincidence that it would hit an "even night cop" rather than scum.
- He's

not here trying to fight this

, while active elsewhere. Why? Because he's a lying little scumbag & coming up with BS is hard.

I can't see a world where Rofl is town and legitimately believes a scum-Kison / town-LuckyOtter scenario.

Vote Count

(2) LuckyOtter - Kison, Pine
(2) Kison - LuckyOtter, roflcopter

not voting:

Ginngie, Old Man, OnTheMark, Momrangal, Eddie Cane, RayFrost

6 to lynch

Deadline is 6 PM EST on Wednesday the 25th of July.

[Kison]

Did you even read my post? The post is about Rofl's mindset making no sense as town. That also answers your question.

[Kison]

Rotfl didn’t say he thought Otter was town. He said he thought it was mylo and was voting you. That doesn’t mean he thinks Otter is town, just you’re more likely scum.

He is free to try clarifying, but that is not how I read it. I'd argue that thinking I am more likely to be scum is a similarly baffling mindset.

[Kison]

I think we should finish the mass claim before doing anything. From Eddie's last post there are just two people left.

[Kison]

We can figure that out after.

[Kison]

After everyone claims.

[Kison]

Going off Eddie's

post 1584

, you & roflcopter are the only two left.

[Kison]

Alright. That's why I wanted the claims first.

I tracked roflcopter last night. He visited Old Man.

VOTE: rolfcopter

[Kison]

Mara, who did you target last night? That should be the last result we need.

It's possible that someone else roleblocked Old Man but I think it's way more likely that roflcopter is lying & did it. Everything he has done has been harmful to town.

[Kison]

Rofl I'm mostly upset that you broke my heart like this.

[Kison]

if anyone wants to think with their brain today, can you explain why that strongman is in the setup? could it have something to do with a town protective role existing?

Ginngie as town roleblocker would explain it just fine.

[Kison]

Yep. Sorry. Not sure why I keep thinking it was you.

[Kison]

I actually don't think my result on you is a hard guilty, but it's a huge mark against you. It would take a lot to convince me not to lynch you because of the result, your refusal to claim until I gave my result & your disastrous play all game. I'd say convince me not to lynch you, but I'm pretty sure you're just going to say I'm a scum tracker and continue being mediocre, which is exactly what I'd expect you to do as scum.

The only thing you're right about is everyone sucking.

[Kison]

Momrangal: who did you target?

[Kison]

RayFrost are you ever planning to make a meaningful contribution to the game? You have six posts in over a month, only one of which has anything useful. We need you to participate.

[Kison]

Alright. So I tracked Eddie last night and he didn't go anywhere. More interesting though is that I was not roleblocked. I got the exact same result as when I tracked Insanity on night 1.

This doesn't make much sense to me. With Pine as town, I would have expected Pine to be blocked and me killed, or vise versa. This means one of the following:
- There is no scum roleblocker & Old Man lied about being blocked.
- Eddie is scum blocker, Ginngie town blocked it.
- Scum blocked someone else. Ginngie is the only one who makes sense.

Ginngie:

Are you sure your block went through?
- Scum chose not to block or forgot.

Is there any other scenario that anyone can think of? It seems really weird that if there is actually a scum roleblocker that they'd both not block the town tracker and keep him alive. On the other hand, if they didn't have the blocking role, it would make perfect sense to kill Pine out of fear of him protecting me.

[Kison]

also mara is the rb claim not ginngie

dammit i keep doing that.

I'm running off the assumption that, if scum have an ability, they can't use said ability and kill.

So you think Old Man is lying, then? Because he said he was blocked the night MoI was killed. Either scum can both block & kill or he lied.

[Kison]

Korts:

Could we prod RayFrost?

I'm feeling similar about the roles, to be honest. Going into last night I suspected that one of claimed roles is probably lying. I guess it's possible scum have some kind of weird, limited roleblocker but I think it's unlikely. Which brings me back to finding it very odd that I was not blocked & paranoid that Old Man's whole role is a giant charade.

Thoughts on no lynching? If there are two scum left we should be able to afford one more loss & it could clear some of this up. If Momrangal is in fact town blocker we have a chance of stopping the kill as well, which could mean I get a result in if there's no scum blocker, or potentially blocked if there is, confirming its existence. It also would be Old Man's supposed investigation night. Have to think more on whether it's the right move but it's worth considering.

[Kison]

While I wouldn't be against lynching RayFrost, do you really have nothing to add about what we discussed last page?

[Kison]

Still waiting to hear from everyone except Eddie on no lynching. Old Man & Momrangal are you guys alive / paying attention?

RayFrost slot needs replacing. Absolutely nothing from that slot the entire game.

[Kison]

Since nobody else is playing the game...

Eddie: Do you have Old Man written off as town simply because of his investigation result?

[Kison]

Looks like we need prods on Momrangal & Old Man now too.

When i get home I’ll do a risk benefit analysis of the night actions

What did you conclude?

[Kison]

Assuming you're right on Old Man, who do you think is the most likely second scum?

[Kison]

It makes sense to me, but I'd like to think it through in some detail this weekend when I have a spare uninterrupted hour.

I'm also concerned with making the right lynch today, though, otherwise none of it matters. At this moment I'm leaning towards Old Man taking the rope, for a number of reasons.

[Kison]

mechanics: we lose if old man is town and we lynch him for "the plan", disregarding Mara being both town and successfully rbing. that goes without saying, but old man is a TR and I really don't love how quickly someone subbed into lylo and gave a crap case and the thread shifted completely. I concede its possible he's scum, especially due to him being still alive despite being a strongish PR that also is one of the few players not being horse shit (not that his play is great), and if we hit a partner and I'm still alive I'll consider it, but there's no chance I'm voting him today without something damn better than whats been stated. especially with my being stated as the partner. the suggestion entirely hedges on hitting scum today and I don't get why that's being treated like a given.

If you really want to test roles, I say we no lynch and have Mara roleblock Michael. We lose if they're both town, but somehow I doubt that's the case. Old Man can also act tonight, so if Michael's as confident as he says then we could have Old Man target him instead of Mara. This should satisfy his Old Man issues and satisfy my Michael issues. I'd rather Mara, but if people think Old Man / Eddie (or Ginngie or Kison) is a possibility das fine.

My position hasn't shifted that greatly. I have been super sketched out by Old Man ever since I wasn't blocked last night. I don't get what you see in his play that has you so confident he's town. The only thing he's done is out Lycanfire in what could have been a bus. He has otherwise been pretty non existent except his over the top day 1 play & IC claim. He doesn't look anything even close to clear to me.

But if you guys aren't willing to go for it, I'll settle for one of Momrangal & Michel. At least one, if not two, of those supposed power roles is lying scum. Which of them is much less clear.

[Kison]

Went back & forth on this all day and was going to hammer as well, for the record. Not confident this was the right move but it makes sense. Agree that Momrangal should target Michel if Old Man flips scum. Otherwise, I guess we pray Momrangal is town & blocks the kill.

[Kison]

Good game, everyone! I had fun despite the lethargy that hit mid game.

Old Man lying hurt us. That was a big factor in lynching roflcopter(believing he was role blocked) & then lynching Old Man himself.

Axelrod, you got done dirty. Sorry for my part in it!

Thanks for modding, Korts. See ya'll around.