NY214: Project Pinecone (Game over! Town wins!)

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VOTE: No Lynch

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Inferno wins first notable goodpost award (87)

VOTE: davesz

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huge tangents of twisted logic

a bit of a stretch no?

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also given gamestate analysing little things or essentially anything is par for the course so I'm not quite understanding that critique

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VRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR-

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I thought about elbirn but maybe he is just picking a fight

dave post there feels kinda lame and safe

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directed @@@TW

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I think inferno flails by now if they're scum

I don't feel like entertaining elbrin's schtick as scum. Will entertain an inferno tunnel as scum.

I'll read the worst trolling as the wagon grows on them as town for now

Don't understand this post (inferno there?) (what does the 2nd sentence mean?) (tw trolling as the wagon grows on them?)

Agreed. In my onion I think the first reaction test (elbirn) is fine but the second one (rask) a bit LAMIST especially considering he never really followed up on it other than his read on inferno.
VOTE: rask

I could understand a straight scumread but scumreading something like this too-town when I don't see how it'd come off towny makes me feel you read it knowing I'm town
saying I haven't really followed it up is kind of overly obtuse as well given the timeframe (very soon) but I also don't get it since even at that point I commented on davesz, inferno and maybe a bit on elbirn?

Profii hesitating on AI judgments as stated though claiming it's his style so ehhh unless contradicted. Ironically closest thing to a judgement is calling 255 out as political (non-committal) but also he's soft on how ai that is heh

Gustavo is kinda just wrong wrt self vote or d1 nl relating to wincon (though that's assuming a complete straight take on both and not RVS and whatnot other factors) but 164 reads as though he genuinely does believe in what he's saying. as opposed to scum pushing something they actually know is BS for an agenda, and also gustavo is easily new enough for that take to be plausible. logically right or logically wrong doesnt really mean much unless the agenda looks malicious

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Hitalt have I played with your main btw

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I'm going to advertise how I've correctly scum read duckling very quickly at least one time.

So far, I've been okay with him.

He'll be obvtown by the end of day 1 if he's town, and I think he is

Actually kinda like this from brass regardless of duck
What little I know from games I've read supports this as likely true (the he should get obvtown if town part, I think it's too soon to actually judge though) and my experience is most scum don't feel comfortable straight vouching for their partner like this even if duck turns out scum

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@Rask

- why did you try to suggest my observation about Inferno was a criticism when it was an attempt to see if others would vouch for what looked like a deliberate play style and see who responded?

Huge tangents of twisted logic does read critical, though there admittedly there is the distinction of saying the logic is bad and making any AI judgment based on it.
Questioning for meta is valid but the phrasing there read a bit exaggerated so I wondered if maybe part of that may have been asked to discredit or make him look bad.

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Dramonic posting strikes me as very cagey here
Has to go into more why the progression by inferno is fake given I don't think anyone else sees ingame agrees (gustavo having had problem with inferno on something entirely different)

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Actually elbirn kinda did though he dropped it

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VOTE: skygazer
flub wagon is okay but kinda whatever
Sky I think is closest here to pushing an agenda given the conclusions don't make sense to me and feel forced

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No I get that sometimes (difficulty to parse)
It was in referring to 328 but I remembered your spoiler posting on inferno

As a side note I probably should have joined a geriatric or something, have to get used to this pace here (also the number of names to keep track of)

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You think sky's read given on my entrance is genuine?

otherwise I can maybe see flub but gustavo looks like red herring/VI imo (as opposed to superflailing)

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Tight lipped
Aside from on inferno I don't know much of what you're thinking this game (okay it's early)
and there I kinda want to know more of what your read is now after his exchange (I have to try to guess at your meaning in 222, I mean the implication is you don't like it)

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@Mod declaring VLA until saturday

Moving friday and have a ton of things I have to wrap up (have really awful tendancy to procrastinate doing necessary things as well so I feel as I kinda have to self impose this)
Will still check in and should be fine again saturday/sunday and from then on

V/LA acknowledged.

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prodge

ultra super quick skim suggests sky isn't that big a deal
taly if I have to guess is scumread via the similar reason people actually didnt like him in the popularity contest where people thought his super happy tone was insincere and he was a fake person
flub I could see being scum, game complaints and frustration feel fake, talking about dave interaction reads super storytellingy and kind of a ridiculous narrative (stretch)
andrius eh kinda dont like him but huge catchup beyond what anyoned consider necessary realistically more likely town effort. somewhat too many "we'll see how this goes" things though kinda wishy washy

VOTE: flubb

isod just these from vc, gotta run but I also remember really liking inferno and brass here too if that helps

thankfully this deadline is enough ill be free monday tuesday to dive back into this

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Have some time for this this afternoon please don't prod me

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Andrius can you summarize your scumread on me in one or two sentences please.

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I kinda just want to sheep MoI this game

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Hitalt I'm wondering how specifically you come to the conclusion scum jumped on sky wagon with you if he's town

Can you explain exactly why and how exactly you'd learn from a sky lynch given afaik you said it's good even if that's the case?

Granted even if true 1 scum in a group of 3 people after a mislynch is still actually kind of awful (random is almost as good afaik) so I don't understand talking about it like it'd be potentially worth a mislynch to even get that information

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ironically enough hitalt might potentially be partially a flub cw though

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Taly if you have time, can you summarize the select few reads this game what you feel the most strongly about in one post with an under 200 word count and no quotes. It would help me a lot, I have ADHD or something.

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Flub what you think about hitalt here and the wagons being you vs him?
Dramonic how do you read taly's catchup?

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WRT the worst / hitalt their game (sharing) does back up why duck would respect hitalt, he lockscummed him super early on. dont see this kind of reaction-style bait play there though it seems more just straight up metaing and tonal
interestingly hitalt hasn't made a hard judgment on duck yet though but seems to scumread him via association?

Hitalt can you explain specifically why sky is probably scum btw?
Also maybe more on dramonic overall now though I did get you said you scumread 110

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I think hitalt is probably a bad lynch at least d1
I'd even let him pick lynch if he makes a solid case, at worst he would ideally be checked if possible rather than lynched

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@HWS can you go into your scumreads? Also what's your take on flubber wagon?

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ATM I think there's two very different games here depending on if flub is scum or town. Ideally sort him either way first though I'd rather do so first hand, vote on dave feels like a really big stretch with how he built up a very specific expectation for what davesz should've done there, and post to chickadee reads more pushing technicalities than a thought

From what I've read so far I'm not townreading any of Taly, HWS, xyzzy or chickadee (though her read on flub isn't SonS) here for what it's worth

Sky and andrius notably seemed to scumread flubber but joined the hitalt wagon which I'd want expanded on a bit. hitalt negative association with both plus to TW probably safe to call FTR
which reminds me TW I'm curious if you could go into your flub read a bit

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Hitalt can you explain specifically why sky is probably scum btw?

Also maybe more on dramonic overall now though I did get you said you scumread 110

I actually explained this somewhat later by saying:

A very stock answer/quote thrown in an attempt to look townie.
Such a basic thing to ask "then why aren't you voting?"
But it reveals, in fact, that dramonic didn't really read what was said, and went for the appearances instead.

That's what I referring to, I saw that though it was early and he posted a lot since so I'd wonder if you have more thoughts since. I didn't like his tone earlier but his response seemed legit and his dave read seems like it had some thought? (granted I wasn't there to experience full context)

I want to know why you are so strongly scumread sky and dramonic so I can judge for myself. If you have strong scumreads I think you should easily be able to go into a bit of detail as to why or make a convincing argument that isn't association based. Even if it's tonal you can go into those just a bit.

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Though noted dramonic also counts towards the people who were going to vote flub and went to hitalt group

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Yeah I didn't realise it at first because of all the associations and grouping stuff but I don't think he ever went into where his initial sky scumread comes from to begin with.

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@Flubber 2 things

547 can you explain how exactly that expectation on dave wrt your interaction makes sense?
Dave is an analytical guy -> dave agrees with my concern about naked votes -> if he was town he would and/or should start a discussion to try to change everyones voting habits here
Going from the first two to the latter is a huge leap for me, most people would agree it's protown but unless someone does it all the time idk how you can say the lack of it is really indicative
also when in context he essentially said he'd do it if he had time so doesn't seem realistic

548 I don't like because it's more like shading chickadee than giving a stance on her. What does 1 strike against her like actually even mean

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100% willing to compromise here towards deadline because even if they're town, lynching them devours scum of a nice slot to divert attention to them.

Also not a fan of this. It's not even saying lynching him is fine because even if town he's playing anti-town (a reasonable stance) it's saying lynching him is fine even if town because other people would keep getting their attention diverted (thought process doesnt read town)

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I kinda just want to sheep MoI this game

I want to ask … why? You don’t strike me as someone who likes logical / wallpost players like me.

I won't but I would as a fallback
From what I've read you're more or less the main player driving the game forward I think

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There have been a few slots (namely Sky and dramonic), who have started more as gutreads/hunches/whatever but once you turn that interrogation-style lamp towards their faces, they start to make more and more mistakes with their trajectory..

You still haven't answered me though
Okay so they have tons of mistakes in their trajectory and you scumread them based on a mountain of evidence

How is it so hard to go into detail

and make a convincing argument then?

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@MoI his play actually was really impressive in sharing is caring though, his reads were amazing, just he didn't work well with others.
he correctly scumread TW scum d1 and backed up really well but couldn't get him lynched, but even then compromise lynched other scum but then of course it looks like you tried to defend scum even if you were pushing another scum the whole time

What I don't get is there he still explained himself fairly well but here is more like a black box.

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otoh COUGH how dare you scumread me i will policy you you should just assume assume im always town COUGH

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but probably not actually

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Can you detail the difference between the two? Diverting attention to yourself as town is anti town

Because it's less about him then and more about everyone else. It's less saying he'd be an okay lynch if town because he's playing antitown, not working with people or pushing scum agenda, and more like saying he'd be an okay lynch if town because so many OTHER people are paying him attention and scum are taking advantage of it. That's
a) more a concern you can do something about
b) seems justified as done for the sake of others and not so much to help you
and I feel like lynching someone because they're distracting people can be used to justify like any lazy lynch ever or lynching always the easiest consensus scumread.

Basically anyone who'd lynch partially on policy is still doing it primarily on scumread but then mostly because it would help themselves to have it cleared up and not deal with the play, the angle that it'd be like for the common good and protown as it'd help clear up other peoples reads feels more of a scum way of looking at the game.

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I do want taly to summarise his scumread (ideally in one post without quotes for readability)
He does sound like in 640 he was almost prepared to scumread you ahead of time for the dave vote which is kind of weird
though he's right in that your read on him is inconsistent with dave meta given you expect dave to be proactive given his lurk tendencies

if I have a concern with taly its actually how extremely self conscious he feels here rather than progression though

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His priority seemed to be questioning you there though, but even then he asked if you could be more specific and partially acknowledged your point
idk how agreeing there is some truth to it necessitates him @ing everyone to explain votes better as a public service announcement when he didn't seem to care half as much about it as you

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Mmm I thought taly was mostly wagoned as taly though seems it was already there from dave apart from elbirn

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probably have to meta flubber as due diligence here

@Skygazer want readlist from you, also response to flubber answers you said you were waiting for

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@Mod

can we get an updated VC

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I kinda like flubber pursuing taly with some fire though there is a specific scumtype that enjoys arguing and 1v1 exchanges as scum I'd want to doublecheck. I really want taly to just make a post without any quotes in it and going in depth on his gamestate for a few sentences because tracking reads through his posts is actually pretty difficult
Flubber VS Taly and Hitalt as other leading but sort of a separate thing altogether is a really interesting and somewhat bizarro gamestate FTR given there's usually more connection between the two different things (hitalt and sky are almost isolated from most other game events)

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Mmm deadline's sooner than I thought

@Hitalt

do you have like any thoughts at all on like flub wagon today?
Also I really don't get it, how you see your scumreads being lynched if you don't even case them.
You're defending yourself but not really actually pushing or pressuring much, I'm not sure what you're reasonably expecting is going to happen as things are going or repeating you think x should be lynched will do anything

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Ok am I the only one still waiting for hitalt to like substantiate his uberstrong scumreads
I guess dramonic scum from early post and now pr thing
Skygazer scum still can't find anything why in the iso to that read

but once you turn that interrogation-style lamp towards their faces, they start to make more and more mistakes with their trajectory..

why is it so hard to go into some details or specifics here. I feel like it should be easiest thing in the world

blows my mind people are even talking pretty much everything else about hitalt other than being interested in this (except for MoI I guess)

Hitalt are you missing all the prompts to do this or are just choosing not to?

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except dramonic pr thing is wrong because in context it would refer to scum pr

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writing an extremely barebones one or two sentences why dram or sky is scum should literally take 1 minute if you feel that strongly on the read
the fact that it's like pulling teeth to get substance or specifics on your strongest reads when you keep speaking to there being a mountain of evidence and people should sheep you doesnt make any sense to me

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IDK what's going on this game
I feel like most people I townread earlier starting lurking and push on like gutreads and using loose associations
I need logic and cases and things I can follow

dramonic is like one of the few people I think I can actually somewhat follow why their voting
dramonic scumreads HA afaik because hit spent his time on like baseless speculation and self defense instead of having any substance to his scumreads and I think that's actually just true.

case against dramonic seems to be his judgments are too easy or exaggerated and so trying to put a scum agenda onto everything

small element I agree with is when dramonic says things like duck is gaining scumpoints it is easy to just say things like that. in context though duck defending hit based on their game isn't really right either though given hit was actually backing up his points and reads in that game
dramonic idk because since if the slots hes been going hard on are even partially scum hes actually been super protown and they're more or less what im looking at too. flipside if not the case I think he doesn't have to be doing what's he's doing putting himself out there either (unless cwing flub)

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VOTE: The worst
I think TW defending the fuck out of hitalt and glossing over literally everything there is bad regardless of hitalts alignment. though I have extra concern is TW potentially whiteknighting a hitalt town and duck feeling justified defending as such on the basis of knowing he's town and like dismissing hitalt scum and hitalt wagon out of hand.
I read that game they played and hitalt here really isnt very similar to hitalt there, hitalt there actually went into detail when pressed on his scumreads and made convincing meta+tonal arguments
when I read that game it did blindside me a bit how strong hitalt were there and I did think ok hitalt should get some space in 814, but getting back into this game its even more clear how much nothing hes doing here in comparison and if anything expectation should be higher (though it's tempting strong meta judgment on that 1 game sample size not necessarily reliable either though)

Also I feel like he's kinda complacent here. impression is he's pointing things out but not actually scumhunting

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inb4 "why not vote hitalt"

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If dram was trying to point out PRs then that's really bad. I'm not seeing why people are assuming he means scum power role? The post is rather unclear in that regard (at least to me).

its a response to 943, first sentence, I missed it at first too

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I want at least stances out on that first (there's another thing) even if deadline makes me to compromise
The problem is calling it vanity before anyone else even responded dismisses the seriousness and makes it more ignorable
TBH as a sidepoint I don't even think game should even ever be locked into specific wagons as such unless literally <24h deadline and I actually don't feel that good about current gamestate (though partially because I was busy and missed most earlyday so I still don't feel a solid grasp yet)
though I'm not used to large normals where maybe it's different story and people can't (or maybe just don't) ever flashwagon anything near EOD

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Need VC about now, though gist of it looks like HA and dramonic are lead wagons and flub kind of third, potentially actually no longer viable with deadline.
I'd definitely lynch HA or flub over dramonic here FTR.

Reads like some of what dramonic is getting wagoned over is for saying hit was PR when he was actually talking about scum PR and people either read or don't care when pointed out (bad sign on any wagon imo)
Also from where I'm at dramonic's push on hitalt is more than justified but people are scumreading him for it. Unless it's more the format or how he does it but yeah.

I really don't like hitalt treating what his main interest should be in explaining into his scumreads like

as if it's work he has to do and has been putting off (I think town should want to do it

and viewing it like a pain in the butt is more likely of a scum pov).

Rather his focus has almost entirely giving townreads in a reactive (logic around wagon on him) sense, going into them instead of scumreads and mostly appealing to not be lynched. Problem is I've seen this approach from scum trying to save themselves, it's more a super heavy diplomatic focus. I think town tend more to try to convince people of where their actually coming from or delineate their scum reads such that if they do get lynched you can tell people to follow or judge them on their own merit, less about survival and more about getting the points across for the greater wincon. Scumreading on like 948 suggests he isn't even paying attention to dramonic and reading his posts in context, if you do you can't walk away saying that's what dramonic actually said there, but then not commenting since that was pointed out either. A distinction is I can understand missing it from most people but hitalt should have read the exchange to give a hard scumread judgment based on it and should've followed it in general as something from his top scumreads. My feeling is hitalt just gave hard scumreads on sky and dramonic

but hasn't actually really been following what they've been doing this game any more than in the loosest sense possible.

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VOTE: HitAlt
L-3, 4 or 2 I think. Need VC but definitely it's l-1 or hammer.
Inferno unvoted to go to dram so wagon is not as big as I thought earlier.

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*definitely it's not

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Impression is 1042 response to profii is saying it's bad, though maybe he was just talking in general

I actually townread you but I think hit's probably scum and dramonic sees similar as me

Actually have to go now so I can't really read ISOs but can you post what you think the "smoking gun" is on dramonic for you

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@MOD (Or Aristo) please VC

I'm probably phoneposting rest of day

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can we just lynch hitalt

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VOTE: The worst

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actually TW probably doesn't try to seriously lynch pr as scum if dram town

HA claim actually somewhat believable in retrospect, thought he was saying "oh I'll be nightkilled" as an "I'm a player who always does" kind of defense but can see it as softing
Explains uber defensive focus and really heavy pushing/casing complacency to some extent (don't need flip so much if you can investigate I guess)

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Taly HA feels kind of like a scum exchange though

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flubbers probably the only still viable wagon given deadline though I'd find a TW or Taly flip infinitely more interesting

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HA are you boonskiies?

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my impression of andrius is like he's sitting on top of a castle looking at the game from a mile away if that makes any sense. He gives actually good analysis and takes opinions that sound emotionally strong but at the same time I feel like maybe he's kind of hollow inside and isnt actually that invested though
He's been hard agreeing with everything I say but I haven't really townread him since early, especially if you're town here. though at the same time he hasn't actually done anything scummy and probably unfair to act on essentially baseless tonal paranoia if it might just be nothing

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Hey Boon-Why do you like to hammer L-1's?

I really get a lot of reads from hammering at L-1. I figure if people get to L-1, people are willing to lynch them anyway, so in the end it won't be too bad. A lot of my playstyle comes from analysis on vote counts, and looking at their reactions partners up with it well. I usually look into the reactions at around Day 3 to help further my reads. I mainly only hammer L-1's on Day 1 or 2. Plus, I realize when I don't do crazy stuff like that, I'm a first contender to get night killed Night 1, and that's really the worst thing for me. I don't like being seen as a threat to scum until around Day 3, and I have a good case on them because their reactions to my cases also help me read them.

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Though everything said flubber has just been hard lurking since the wagon on him went away so it actually might have been the right one all along
He's posted elsewhere

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VOTE: flubber

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Taly you're more a really big blur with tons of thick interactions going out connecting to most of the game so I'd find your flip fascinating
If I scumread-scumread you, you would know about it. though atm as a minor thing I feel like you grandstand a lot which rubs me the wrong way. But on review flub losing his bite when the pressure went away means he probably is just scum here (scum countercase to relieve pressure, town countercase there as scumhunting. now that the pressure is gone so his energy so...)
though it's hard to get a grasp on you either way because you play kinda alien to what I'm used to and stuff suggests that parts kinda standard

Incidentally if you keep posting like 1217 I'd absolutely love it because I have a way easier time following that than connections from quotewalls to quotewalls and getting distracted by the gifs

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Duncecap for me I guess.

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Actually really duncecap would be lynching hitalt (probably town in retro) instead of vt flub

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TFW you thought he was trying to hardgrab towncred by doing the obviously protown thing by not lynching claimed pr day 1.

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I got a banana as well.

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VOTE: chickadee

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Mmm I was speculating hitalt as probably blocked scum kill FTR since he claimed an investigative. My impression is brass was kinda just spamming/fluff latter half of yesterday so feels weird him claiming such but guess in retrospect he was pushing dram so maybe scum thought he was towny via hiddenknowledge or targeted on read/thread basis?

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FTR asking who's in favour potentially outs the vig as the vig if in favour would probably just claim.
I like it however.

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You being protected implies that you think you were targeted to be shot, so can you walk me through your thought process here?

Taly hit claimed investigative, I know because I was going to lynch him otherwise.

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I want hitalt thing to happen.
Vig claim in exchange for guilty is worth.

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VOTE: xyyzzy

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Well that's kind of lame. You know vig had to have shot dramonic here and therefore not you though right?

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FTR the recent townreads on me are shallow because I haven't even seen how against dramonic wagon I was mentioned.
So sideglance at Taly andrius maybe ausuka.

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if vig is SK they're probably not claiming ftr.

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Brass probably not scum in either case

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You can have the banana I got if you want, it's still gift wrapped.

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I think xyzxyz might be scum he commented on hit and flub not dram. But he had opportunities to like in 1086 (at the end where he responded to taly)

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I was going to say "I'll give you my banana" but it sounded a little weird

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(Go down the path hitalt)

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Wait duck you aren't scum are you?

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Duck

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Very funny.

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I think I understand what's been going on here, unfortunately that means it's all a red herring though.

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Cause you're hot then you're cold
You're yes then you're no
You're in then you're out
You're up then you're down
You're wrong when it's right
It's black and it's white
We fight, we break up
We kiss, we make up

You don't really want to stay, no
But you don't really want to go-o

You're hot then you're cold
You're yes then you're no
You're in then you're out
You're up then you're down

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I think I understand what's been going on here, unfortunately that means it's all a red herring though.

can you throw us a bone?

It would involve outing you though.

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Realtalk

I think xyzxyz might be scum he commented on hit and flub not dram. But he had opportunities to like in 1086 (at the end where he responded to taly)

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Actually hmm
I thought banana was fruit vendor thingo at first but it is kind of weird me and andy both got one.
In which case either multitargeting vendor if possible or a role that actually did something just gave that message on top (kind of like loud modifier hitalt brought up).

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I guess for the flavour.

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TW why do you townread taly you said you had reasons.

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It's a weird thing but game is almost running out of scumcandidates.

I'm taken by chick venge claim, my understanding is scum wouldn't claim it because it would make her an eventual lynch if game ever got to a bad state?(for venge)

@@@Anyone Does TW deserve benefit of the doubt here?

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TW why do you townread taly you said you had reasons.

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Why later

Duck who do you think is scum

You have more townreads than me and I think I have too much

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maybe profii?

I feel like he wasted most of yesterday talking about what happened in rvs

[Raskolnikov]

Who is below your null line.

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Rask

, am I still a big blur in this game now?

IDK
I feel like you're way more into making friends than enemies
You have so many townreads and like. scumread TW but put him in the sort later pile and you give sus reasons thecaveats
I'm only very wary with scumreading you because regardless of the rest your AtE/ frustration reads somewhat real (not a spot I like to be however)
You're someone I'd put aside in a game but in a game where I might already be townreading too many and like people like andrius chickadee who I thought might be scum are now IDK-probably-not and a lot of people are vouched for in some capacity it's messy
To some extent it's more efficient to look at what might probably be easier to sort out though at least in time efficiency

If TW has something good I want him to say it because why not, but that's even about as much about him as it is you

[Raskolnikov]

Someone speak to venge usual play.
I played a lot but usually stay away from themes/opens and my very vague memory is like someone like vedith keeping it secret so they can shoot the person they were in a 1v1 with the whole game (then shoots town and loses naturally).

[Raskolnikov]

What do you want to discuss with venge usual play?

What happens to vengeclaims?
Consequently does it make any sense for scum to claim?

[Raskolnikov]

Do you really think MoI would hardclaim an inno on scumpartner andrius here

[Raskolnikov]

Jesus christ what a shitshow

[Raskolnikov]

Does anyone counterclaim TW as shooting dramonic

I saw this as possible when I thought of it because TW wanted to lynch dram regardless of claim and hard fought for it against resistance until he was like "oh. okay fine." and dropped it altogether which I thought was maybe fishy but if he could just shoot the guy makes sense.

[Raskolnikov]

This setup is some boonskiies memey shit

[Raskolnikov]

Hitalt I'm more thinking of what the fruit vendors mean
Logically a role as such wouldn't be reliable because of the scum JK? (and people don't always claim fruit I guess)
Would there even be more roleblock in addition to scum partial JK?
Because if there was that potential to maybe false guilty via roleblock then the power isn't as strong as it would initially seem

[Raskolnikov]

I don't mean a roleish CC to TW (dangerous in a large idk not familiar enough to judge) but rather if someone directly claims dramonic shot that he does.

[Raskolnikov]

Actually loyal fruit vendor is useless now because anyone can claim to get fruit...

[Raskolnikov]

Nvm it isn't because target is unaware so that's not possible.
Tomorrow we have a receive fruit rolecall. If it's the wrong people or if it's 3 people or if it's 1 person...

[Raskolnikov]

What does the (or lack thereof) confirmation message signify
@Hitalt Brassherald

[Raskolnikov]

Activated BP you just send the mod an activate message the night you want to use it usually.
IDK what this confirmation message supposedly is and what it would mean, it's possible hitalt was using bad phrasing or something and just asking TW if he knew he succeeded in his action/kill?

That role pm thing is unreliable as I think many games just do that.

[Raskolnikov]

I highly doubt "action received" or lack of such is ever an indicator of anything actually in a game but is more supposed to be an administrative semi out-of-the-game thing to help prevent mod error.

[Raskolnikov]

I don't even think a mechanic like that would even be normal although this game is already surprisingly wacky.

[Raskolnikov]

There's a way to do it by the book
If anyone counterclaims dramonic kill, as they should if they did then TW is just scum who tried to kill someone else but failed (the scum's killing action and not the killing scum dramonic action) and got forced into this claim.
If not then TW if confirmed vig or SK.
In that case maybe leash him idk. I think his read into kill of dramonic is kinda more town vig than SK. Maybe at some point try to give him a banana.

[Raskolnikov]

There's potentially what if anything caused andrius' claimed "thing with chickadee" PM as a loose thread but I think that's everything.

[Raskolnikov]

I think we have to wagon the more nullscum quiet folks who could have a dram association now.
There has to be scum in the claims by now obviously but there has to be scum outside them as well and I think that's probably the better focus right now.

[Raskolnikov]

Ausuka why did you choose to target me?

[Raskolnikov]

Visitor is a role
It's like a silent fruit vendor if that makes sense, visits but no effect on target.
Kinda just there to throw false positives on like tracker kinds of things but sometimes gets modified to like weak visitor to actually do something

[Raskolnikov]

---

D2 claims

MagnaofIllusion - claim loyal fruit vendor with inno on andrius
Ausuka - claim loyal fruit vendor with inno on raskolnikov
brassherald - claim activateable bp that actived n1
the worst - claim vig with dramonic shot
HitAlt - claim idk some kind of invest, gets notified of killing action attempts. received loud
Chickadee - claim vengeful town
Inferno390 - claim town visitor, visited dramonic n1

Andrius - ? receive something about chickadee, banana inno(?)
Raskolnikov - ? receive banana inno
Elbirn, Skygazer, xyzzy, HeWhoSwims, Taly, Profii

Also in game/Loose ends
-andrius chickadee thing said received
-hitalt loud said received

OP says WRT mafia action plus kill

As per Normal rules, you may not use a role-based ability in the same night as a factional ability (including factional kill) unless your role PM specifically permits you.

Unfortunately this is slightly open ended but I think this probably is just referring to stuff like modifiers like strongman or ninja rather than like any usual mafia PR to act on same night as kill.
Dramonic role PM for example could not act+kill. TBH it's very possible dramonic was chosen to kill as his role couldn't function n1 but if not would look for goon or something.

Also anyone with verified action could not have killed. Right now ausuka fmpov, and probably MoI (unless gambiting with scumpartner andy but sounds utterly absurd). brass and inferno claimed action lastnight too but no way to verify so. TW as a special case, no one CC'd dram kill afaik. Not really any conclusions from this at least now and also given dram could very possibly just have been sent.

[Raskolnikov]

Also, just to tinfoil these fruit vendors completely: What if one is a loyal fruit vendor for town and the other is a disloyal fruit vendor for the scum team?

Probably the case if one scum.
Though if it's disloyal that's some WIFOM all right. MoI could have andrius just fake receiving a banana then you see MoI flip disloyal. Still weird though.

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: elbirn
Possible xyzzy was cw to dram here.

also maybe minor but

This posting is worthless just be hammered already

This is kinda lolscum message to flub too imo. (scum sometimes like to justify a lynch this way as the person's own fault and as a play thing over read)

I liked elbirn's earlier devil may care attitude but he seems to fit dram moreso than someone like HWS.

[Raskolnikov]

I'm confirming Chickadee for now and the 'thing' was Pine's decided flavor which I decided to use as a lead. No bearing on the game. We're good.

Can you clarify
Did you receive information that makes you believe chickadee is town or are you speculating.

[Raskolnikov]

Mmm I want people to talk to scumhunting and not solely on PR things here despite all the things there.
Comment on my xyzzy and elbirn posts.

[Raskolnikov]

Again to reiterate, I think it's highly likely there are scum both in the claims and not in the claims, but given as some claims can potentially get sorted out in time or some PRs may sort themselves out (and e.g. that PR pool is likely where scum NK) I want to focus on the off group.

[Raskolnikov]

pedit: Boooooring. Elbirn's done little, really. Flashwagon was complete garbage. xyzzy is eh for me. Honestly I'm already in the 'Playing the POE game' mindset so.

What do you suggest?

[Raskolnikov]

Although that was previous to brassherald claiming BP and saying he was likely to have been shot n1 IIRC.

[Raskolnikov]

No one has counterclaimed the dramonic kill so.
Also unfortunately I realised it is possible, if unlikely, that hitalt may actually be mafia trying to lynch who they think is SK (Idk).
Then again brassherald mostly hard fluff posted and people scumread him so it is a little odd he would be targeted in general IMO.

[Raskolnikov]

Actually, scratch that, hitalt-dramonic doesn't seem that plausible of an association.

[Raskolnikov]

I'm not sure.
Part of me wants to lynch the likely SK (TW).
Part of me wonders if he's scum just claiming the scumkill as his personal kill to avoid the HitAlt fiasco. That's unlikely though as who would expect some Detective thing as scum.

Yeah I don't think scum could (or ever would) kill one of their own members in dramonic.

[Raskolnikov]

As an out of game aside Taly the longer you post the less impact it has, be concise direct and to the point. Unless you're dropping like an eddie cane monster case wall on one person.

[Raskolnikov]

Of course, the real case on elbirn is that he claimed scum in rvs.

[Raskolnikov]

As I'm now conf I believe it is time to start asserting my authority, peasants.

Naturally I declare elbirn wagon go forward as first decree.

Brassherald if you will, kindly highlight in your ISO where you softed PR and tried to bait NK as you have testified.

I appoint TW as metameister with a treatise on inferno and profii his priority.

I appoint taly as grand VCA chancellor with every third pagetop as a mandated bulletin.

I appoint skygazer as court artist and requisition a painting of the worst striking down dramonic in bird on bird combat pending any counter claim. Failure will have you sent to the dungeon and replaced by chickadee.

That is all for now.

[Raskolnikov]

<_<
Ok just tell me who you think hitalt main is.

[Raskolnikov]

confession: i kinda want rask to be the king of the real world rn

appreciate the sentiment my good Sir Ducky Snuggleworth

[Raskolnikov]

I think reading around where dramonic wagon got started and stopped is probably the most important thing.

My thoughts so far are that dram and inferno would be kind of be just crazy. though maybe maybe just on the off chance metacheck scumrange inferno/dramscum on associations (clear barring a history of coordinating such things)

as an aside Andrius read on dramonic reads more of a copout than an actual read, granted his fruit vouched by MoI but

Taly leading progression on dramonic looks OK and unvoting flubber when he did while dramonic gained momentum to then later vote him is a pretty harsh turn. But I'm at least somewhat tinfoily wrt if dram wouldn't at least put 1 scum in his hardpushes to distance either by this point (lump one in why not). The vote itself I still feel as it did at the time as a bit over the top ("DELETED DELETED DELETED") and unfortunately thats a scumtheatre tendency, though as a reaction to being hardlocked as scum based on predecessor as kind of BS to experience maybe.

After 1106 Duck essentially solo sparked the return of the dram wagon to claim there which is a huge impact play. Chickadee notable switch from xy back to flub there fishy as blatantly kinda reactionary.

HA interactions decent but unfortunately is kind of odd they briefly switched to xyzzy wagon when they did imo given dram read was one of their confscums, but given reason as self preservation plausible as PR.
Weaker joins as HWS Ausuka harder to call given low ISO substance regarding him

Elbirn kind of indirectly discredited dramonic as lynchbaity and blanket discontent with all wagons is a somewhat less conspicuous stance than jumping on a main one and mislynching (assume xyzzy flipped and town, you don't even know what it counterwagoned).

Of stronger push-dram interactions I think at most 1 of (Taly, HA, inferno, TW) would be a bus/distance, e.g. at minimum 3/4 of said group is town.

Overall I don't think scum even interacted with dram or dram wagon all that much, the bulk of it occurred in a brief time window and most of those actively involved read town, I think most of scum ignored it or pushed elsewhere rather than really even comment.

[Raskolnikov]

Spoiler:

>__> If you find yourself really bored I'd so love a cute little Sir Ducky Snugglesworth with a cape and uhh idk helmet with a feather

[Raskolnikov]

Mmm you probably aren't scum taly.

Actually, scum should be demotivated as heck right now, their kill failed and they got killed overnight.
Unfortunately points to less activates ATM. Always a pain in the butt to pursue scum in such a situation, however.

[Raskolnikov]

I want to reiterate that Skygazer's amazing.

[Raskolnikov]

This is the point of the game where I want the playerlist to get on my level and then I'm afraid that I'm posting too much and drowning out the thread.

No feel free you have license to post.
Where is elbirn at right now?

[Raskolnikov]

HWS and chickadee stop wrt the claim thing, who do you guys think is scum?

Chickadee I'm particularly wondering where you're coming from because you scumread TW for being "really against the dramonic wagon" so I want you to go into that a bit if possible, respond to at the duck part of my 1766 and also how you feel about him claiming to you know vig dramonic. How does he feel off?

[Raskolnikov]

I'm feeling pretty good this morning so today can be a holiday for the court.

[Raskolnikov]

A (Inferno390, Taly, HitAlt, the worst) - Reasonably thick interactions with dramonic
B (Ausuka, HeWhoSwims, brassherald) - Low content reads/votes on dram
C (Elbirn, Skygazer, Chickadee, Profii, brassherald) - Xyzzy wagoners
D (MagnaofIllusion, Andrius, xyzzy) - Geriatric/Other

If xyzzy is just lynchbait and was a scum CW to dram and if MoI town then third group xyzzy wagoners is prime scumcity. C >> B imo with maybe either just 1 or even 0 in A in that case.
Brassherald interestingly I include in 2, had dram voted but went off to xyzzy when dram got steam, to later go back to dram post claim given role madness when lynch was very unlikely (so this is possibly what MoI would be hinting at)

If I'm wrong do correct, there are a lot of people in the game (too many)

[Raskolnikov]

The lurk out the wagon until people get bored strats...

[Raskolnikov]

nah not actually that reliable to read into but fuck

[Raskolnikov]

Ausuka why did you choose to target me btw?

[Raskolnikov]

2 loyal fruit vendor claims is so intriguing
Dramonics role logically would shut down the usefulness fairly hard
Granted now there really shouldn't be any more scum RB power though I wouldn't put a JOAT with maybe a track past it (potentially dangerous as could false inno).
Of andrius MoI ausuka I scumread mostly andrius actually but realistically if there's scum it's probably 1 of MoI Ausuka and not a MoI-Andy gambit
But even if MoI might fit the bill for his lynch preferences d1 his posts read fairly convincing as to him trying to gamesolve I think
Has anyone here played with scum MoI ftr?

[Raskolnikov]

In game like this a scum fruit vendor can just be scum fruit vendor, brassherald could just be actually scum BP, and whatever hitalt is could even be scum detective
it's hard to put anything into perspective unless or until maybe a day 4 or 5 massclaim where you can at least have some clue from normal balance guidelines
but until then I guess play is all there is, kills maybe indicate something given they kind of have to be in PRs as powerful as leaving that power is, and maybe maybe if lucky something will conflict with something else at some point

Normally I'd be familiar enough already with some folks to give me a head start
and then hardcore blindmeta until I got a decisive judgment on one or two people that the rest more or less falls into place, but it takes way too long to do nowadays and in a large the whole approach is probably prohibitive while the slot count is as high as it is
As an alternative ideally I'd have people I townread enough who then have other reads on other people they have a track record or reading or just high enough proficiency in general to rely on
But I suppose every game can't have a math/elli/etc or similar to do the heavy lifting
If anyone has a really strong read mostly townwards on someone they are familiar with with some decent level of insight they can offer beyond what's directly present in this game I really do want to hear it (possibly I missed such a thing too in which case just refer me to the post number), even taking townreads and cementing them further is probably useful atm

[Raskolnikov]

Brass was potentially shot and survived via BP though I really think he wasn't great yesterday so idk why he'd be targeted.
Now that I remember, if a fruit vendor is scum it doesn't mean that their target is town, because scum fruit vendor could just visit no one and partner could claim the fruit. Then you see disloyal in the flip and the scum gets "conftowned".
So MoI/Andy could actually be a long con in that way unfortunately (if that was the plan though it was probably planned or set up early as d1 however and not a desperation reaction of today to dram dying)
Lovers I don't think should really matter if lynching scum should lynch scum and no nk gives breathing room anyways. But chickadee claims to not know so if lovers she'd be denying or hiding it I guess.
If venge if a policy lynch approaching late that's a suicidal claim to begin with though so bizarre from chick, last time I played with chick she crumbed her role too so idk.

Mechanics spec is one thing though, stances or reads on play please.

[Raskolnikov]

UNVOTE:
no rush day enderino

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: profii
That kind of shading manipulative AF btw

Also you're applying an expectation from Taly onto other people. You can't blanket apply strong conviction to everyone based on taly (and then tell people how to act based on it) that's shallow at best

[Raskolnikov]

Referring to 1910

[Raskolnikov]

But also in general there's 11 days left
In no hurry to rush things along here
Give every man a proper trial and all that

[Raskolnikov]

Actually I might have misread what profii said
I thought he was talking to duck

[Raskolnikov]

Phone reading sucks btw

[Raskolnikov]

Yeah profii I figured out why you feel gross here
Youre talking mostly about taly and the wagon instead of elbirn

[Raskolnikov]

@Mod

can you prod elbirn please

[Raskolnikov]

I’ll look over this at work assuming a hammer doesn’t come along

To be fair looks legit enough, I just want to look carefully at if some of that is actually AI - eg activity - are we playing lynch all lurkers here? Etc

My gut is telling me that this wagon is too easy, however we’ve just had the first bottler in TW there and I don’t think we need to be patronised with the big font and L-1 warning- if you are so assured in your case then why are you so bothered about a lol hammer


In fact I’m going to put that to the test -

VOTE: Elbirn

That’s L-1 again, let’s have an intent if someone wants it but don’t lol hammer, there is obviously a plethora of PR in this game so it may be foolish

profii we have to talk about this progression
are you doubting the wagon and stuff around it and at the same time thinking ehhhhhh yeah l-1 why not

[Raskolnikov]

I’ll look over this at work assuming a hammer doesn’t come along

To be fair looks legit enough, I just want to look carefully at if some of that is actually AI - eg activity - are we playing lynch all lurkers here? Etc

I mean the implication, if I'm reading right, and I think I am, is you haven't yet read the case at this point.
Is this right? Did you skim?
If you aren't sure about the case, and you aren't sure about the wagonomics or how fast it formed and no CW and such, then what made you comfortable or give you confidence in elbirnscum to begin with
Because you say like you want the lynch fairly quick too and no CW either

I'm not trying to make you look bad or "get you", I really have trouble understanding any of this thought process
please clarify if you can

[Raskolnikov]

*Because you say it like you want the lynch fairly quick too and don't want any CW either

[Raskolnikov]

Yeah that's like what I said my dude.

[Raskolnikov]

You're making me feel less unique and insightful

[Raskolnikov]

Yeah I'm not a fan

I think detective pinning suffers if public as scum will just send someone else?
I would refrain from locking an elbirn-profii association so early, maybe in a week I come to that anyways but not so early

[Raskolnikov]

idk why its so common to hard partner spec prehammer anyways
either youre right and you make scum feel a lot less happy about bussing or youre wrong and just annoying a town
you want scum to feel safe bussing and like theyll get towncred... and then you jump on them

[Raskolnikov]

3) Scum would NOT want players to catch up on the game if they see a lynch about to happen, usually. Regardless of the alignment of the person. It benefits scum when town has less to work on in a game.

This is crucial above most else here

Right now there are too many slots that haven't yet seriously weighed in and advancing the gamestate is essentially giving them a pass
It's a real pain analyzing people vs people when a large subset just don't/didn't have a stance or committed to anything, and an early end gives enough plausible deniability for it (if someone doesn't have stances by the end of x more days however, by that point you can say with more confidence that they probably had a chance and just didn't want or care to). Different stances are comparable but something to nothing is almost impossible to get anything out of and at most you can maybe ask someone what they would have done afterthefact but that's essentially useless.

At this point I really want to at minimum see both elbirn's response to today and especially profii answer to 1948 1952 before even thinking of moving on
Although there is an element in that today may be my last courtesy of fruit that makes me want to do today a bit more exhaustively than I might be inclined to otherwise

[Raskolnikov]

I could be wrong about the bussing, but I don't really know what else scum would do given the gamestate

I kind of feel like I'm one of the only people making cases here.

It's essentially true and another reason to let things simmer a bit
I want to hear for example what comes out of MoI eventually

I'm also not super confident myself either (when I'm supersure it's fairly obvious), though I think elbirn more likely flips scum than not I have better judgement if I really get a better "sample size" and opportunity to really engage or QandA them
and that's generally a function a time

[Raskolnikov]

Guys if a fruit vendor claim is scum they're probably just scum fruit vendor.

If someone's (informed) there's a fruit vendor and based on that decides to also claim fruit vendor when they're not that's a really bad claim, because if they die their scum buddies who claimed to receive fruit die for being liars, and also they can't "give fruit" to anyone else so it's just a terrible claim to begin with. If a fruit vendor claim is scum they're just a scum fruit vendor.

[Raskolnikov]

If scum have disloyal fruit vendor that itself more or less probably makes them wonder if town have loyal fruit vendor

Or actually maybe it doesn't have an effect because scum may be inclined to out and use that claim anyways regardless of whether they think there's a town FV or not (IDK). Maybe knowing there's a town FV actually makes scum feel less safe claiming because maybe town FV CCs? This referring to MoI thought process if scum, ausuka otoh as having seen that before outing himself is essentially irrelevant WRT informed or not because he knew anyways obviously.

I guess if scum have stock fruit vendor then being informed of loyal fruit vendor is a thing that helps them. Seems weird though and counter-intuitive to have that though (idk I'd think something like informed would probably be used somewhat tastefully, but that kind of would just shuts down from town FV creativity of play and fake/modify claim shenanigans) (continuing with this line of spec feels like probably a waste of time)

[Raskolnikov]

Spoiler:

Four more roles/modifiers are being added to the whitelist:

Roles:

Hider:

target a player. You will be protected from kills, but if that player dies, you will also die. This version is essentially the inverse of babysitter, and is what will be considered the normal version of hider. if you want the most common variant of hider, use a weak hider. The variant which causes the hider to be targeted by all abilities that target the person they hide behind, and other variants, are not normal.

Modifiers:

Any-nights-specific:

you may only use your non-factional abilities on the specified nights. For instance, the following are all now whitelisted:

• Night 1 and 3 cop
  
• Night 2+ vigilante
  
• Night 1-4 jailkeeper
  
• Night 1 and even-night neapolitan

etc. This subsumes some already-whitelisted modifiers, particularly even/odd-night and night-specific. It also subsumes novice. You're free to call these versions of the roles by their common names (e.g., novice vigilante instead of night 2+ vigilante), but the more general versions are also whitelisted.

Informed

: You know (some information about the setup). This information may be related to the setup, or to other players. It must be objective and accurate. For instance, an informed townie (or informed mafia) could be given any of the following:

• You know that this setup has 10 town members and 3 mafia members.
  
• You know that there is a rolecop in this game.
  
• You know that there is a mafia rolecop in this game.
  
• You know that (player) is a tracker.
  
• You know that (player) is a town doctor.
  
• You know that (player) is town. NOTE: if something like this is used, it must be non-random what player-slot is referred to. For example, if an informed townie is told that someone is town, it should be part of the setup specification that the player they are told is town is a randomly chosen vanilla townie, rather than a completely randomly chosen town player. Or it should be part of the setup specification that they are told that a specific power role is town.

Activated:

You may choose each night whether your passive ability will be in play or not. E.g., activated bulletproof, activated ascetic.

The opening post will be updated with a note for this.

Actually it's more likely than it first appears.
That post has anynightspecific and Activated, which if brassherald is truthing he has an activated role (again he may be scum BP as well), though even if he was lying he'd probably have some thing that brought activated to his attention in this game in the first place.
If Pine added anynight and added activated based on probably this post, it's fairly reasonable that he might have tried to work in informed somehow too while he was at it. But even then I think the spirit of that role is traditionally more of a town thing, mafia are pretty informed by default, and giving mafia informed free setup info onto one of the town PRs would IMO just be kinda lame tbh.

[Raskolnikov]

my bad I'm just thinking out loud for the most part
I have a bad tendency to get lost in setup spec and waste time running down every little possibility

[Raskolnikov]

Last time I was in a large I was scum and did 500 posts (20 pages) of setup spec in the scum pt
we had a frame ability and ended up framing the town's check every night through correctly guessing
good times

[Raskolnikov]

n1 was a freebie though

[Raskolnikov]

I'm not particularly satisifed with xyzzy or HWS content yet either
(Taly why do you bold names)

[Raskolnikov]

I feel like I should be used to it by now but every so often reading I'm just like huh and get distracted by it over the content kind of like how when you become aware of your breathing, but that's probably on me

MOI is oddnight so coordinating this probably isn't an issue but just in case I'll fruit vend in the bottom half of the playerlist.

If he's oddnight you should only limit your targets same nights ftr, but pointless to do so e.g. n2

[Raskolnikov]

Carpet bombing's always fun.
If you think TW is probably SK do you think the odds of one of brass or hit being scum BP or scum detective are possibly worth consideration?

[Raskolnikov]

“I’m going to kill everyone who suspects me”

I mean, you gotta respect that in a person

[Raskolnikov]

Tell me why there is a great chance of scum in {Taly/Elbirn} in 3 sentences or less, then give me which one you suspect more, profii.

I want to get a succinct statement.

Strong echo this
Profii you're talking about literally everything except for why you think slots are themselves likely scum or town

[Raskolnikov]

That's fair. However, historically, I feel I've either been really with it, or really not with it. And my grasp on this game is not good, because it's moving too fast for me. So I largely do not trust most of my reads.

@@@MOI so who among the carpet bombing you think is highest ++> scum % flip

[Raskolnikov]

I'm roughly at Elbirn ?= Profii > Xyzzy > HeWho > Sky in that last grouping

Profii again please talk about your progression 1948
your response doesn't address my actual concerns

How do you think there's scum in taly/elbirn and don't feel like straightening it out but just eeeeeeh lets lynch elbirn and if town I guess sus taly
I really want to know how you're comfortable going along with taly as so whilst scumreading him

[Raskolnikov]

dude that's like the most common read
you're like taking not-being-universally-townread worse than I take actually being wagoned

[Raskolnikov]

Are you talking about profii or MoI with that? I think profii's stance on you is kinda weird and he might be scum for it anyways

[Raskolnikov]

lynch profii for profit I guess

[Raskolnikov]

This game is boring until massclaim or such time as there's more info to sort out the PR claims

[Raskolnikov]

idk she doesn't feel super scummy
maybe kind of boring or uncontroversial

[Raskolnikov]

which I guess can imply scum but ehh
kind of weak thing to go off

[Raskolnikov]

which I guess can imply scum but ehh
kind of weak thing to go off

Referring to 2184 not to TW post

[Raskolnikov]

Tell me about a profii lynch/scum? I know I've neglected an ISO there, and will get to that, but I'm feeling a little demotivated and half the people I actually want to engage with right now haven't posted today.

His stance around you+elbirnslot is just bizarre in a scummy way
I don't see town just like whatever sure I'll just vote up l-1 with my scumread taly there's probably scum in the pair and I have huge misgivings about this wagon but yeeeah
I'd think if anything you'd want then more time and info to try to sort out a conflict like that but he was against people wanting to take the day slow and didnt want people to cw until people did and then it was good people cw'd
progression from "good solid case, elbirn probably flipping scum" to elbirn slot probably town is hard to believe given elbirn didnt do anything and I don't think your case that he liked on elbirnslot changed either so IDK what changed

[Raskolnikov]

could lynch a50 here
that vt claim is kind of awful

[Raskolnikov]

you smart
you loyal

[Raskolnikov]

@Mod

V/La this weekend fyi

[Raskolnikov]

Hey can we lynch some scumfucks
where are my VCs at

[Raskolnikov]

VCburgermeister-Taly please

[Raskolnikov]

I think hitalt replace out probably town btw

[Raskolnikov]

Let's get to night so I can die and start my next siteflake already