Newbie 1920: North America [Endgame]

[Persivul]

It takes two to tango

Just noticed most of you have done an RVS vote and I feel like I probably should too.

VOTE: Sekaedy

VOTE: TheASC

People I won't vote rn: Skellen, TheASC
People I will vote: teacher, GrandWazoo

VOTE: teacher

VOTE: Sekaedy

Did I say anything about moving votes?

[scum reading]

NSS. Since I'm the SECOND vote, that means there was ONE vote before I got on. That means that I didn't hop on to a wagon.

And don't joke with me. I don't like you.

I like you a lot though

[Zeito]

@ those scum reading scum reading (couldnt resist), I get why, but I also see alot of town motivation for his actions. Regardless, in my view it is better to leave him alive spewing across the thread during day 2, because if scum he provides more associatives. Even if you think he is scum, I might hunt for his partner on this low-information day.

I’m a tad busy rn (I’ll get on soon and hopefully start actually picking apart the 3 pages of stuff (omg)) but the main reason I don’t want a lynch on scum reading today is because I sill think they’re giving us a lot of our activity, they’ve been helpful for generating reads on other players as well as themself, so I think they’re helpful for town right now. They won’t be if they’re a scum pr though, so if the players on them do have a strong read and are confident of it I think that’s fine. I would prefer a different lynch for today though.

[Persivul]

I would prefer a different lynch for today though.

Who?

[Skellen]

After I mentioned the "letting off the hook so easily" he followed up with a question for teacher. If a town would clear someone as not mafia, why would they keep interrogating them at someone's request, if not because they felt they were being scum read.

I don't think that this could be scum-indicative. Persivul said in #123 that he isn't concerned about teacher as much as before, but still concerned. I see no reason why he shouldn't have kept questioning teacher just because his suspicion on him has been declined a bit. If something at this point was strange then it was vote switch to Sekaedy.

[scum reading]

After I mentioned the "letting off the hook so easily" he followed up with a question for teacher. If a town would clear someone as not mafia, why would they keep interrogating them at someone's request, if not because they felt they were being scum read.

I don't think that this could be scum-indicative. Persivul said in #123 that he isn't concerned about teacher as much as before, but still concerned. I see no reason why he shouldn't have kept questioning teacher just because his suspicion on him has been declined a bit. If something at this point was strange then it was vote switch to Sekaedy.

Who do you want to lynch?

[northsidegal]

VC 1.03

votes

[2] TheASC

:

teacher 249, Persivul 268

[1] scum reading

:

GrandWazoo 184

[1] teacher

:

Zeito 36

[1] Zeito

:

Sekaedy 41

[1] Persivul

:

scum reading 227

[3] Not Voting

:

Skellen 175, TheASC 198, chennisden 199

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

The Day 1 deadline is in

: (expired on 2019-03-12 17:37:59)

Mod Notes

:

[Skellen]

I have no time to check other player's games.

Talk to me a little bit more about this. You are playing a similar meta, but less involved than our last game. I just havent felt your drive as much, even though your questions and comments still feel on point. Whats going on?

Regarding the part you quoted: To be fair I always focus only on the on-going game as I have a very small time window to invest here. Thus I lack the time to read other player's meta, at most I do read other games in between my games.

Your observation for this current game is spot on. It's a mix of irl issues and that I feel kind of disjointed as I feel I am more busy with catching up this game. I was already writing my cases on chennis and GW just to ditch the drafts as new posts came in from them that changed my mind regarding them (although in chennis less than in GW's case). If you are interested I can roughly paraphrase them tomorrow, but they aren't interesting as they are invalid at this point.

I still want to take a look at SR's, chennis' and again GW's as some other ISOs but I can't finish that today. I like your approach with the "emergency" lynch as ASC's return was really lackluster. As I am afraid I might be able to look into thread at night again I will wait what nsg is going to say regarding the deadline and the replacement before deciding where to place my vote, I don't really like having the Sekaedy slot as lynch option with absolutely zero informations or moving towards ending the day before anything new comes in regarding this slot.

[Skellen]

Who do you want to lynch?

Kind of implied in my former post, I am fine with ASC or chennis if it comes to the lurker slots. Persivul would be a no for me. I am particularly rereading you and GW to come to a conclusion regarding this case although I am right now leaning on teacher's view in this matter.

[Skellen]

Sekaedy idk I'll wait till someone fills that slot...

That was poorly phrased by me. I meant that Persivul also switched with his vote to Sekaedy as SR after him. But I got your answer.

It wasn't just what he did, but when he did it - i.e. straight out of the gate.

Ah sorry, now I see it, I thought you meant his chennis vote after his teacher clash, I almost forgot that he already did it far earlier while also voting. Point for you, that looks indeed strange. Have to reread the context though.

[scum reading]

I will still be trying to game solve although I don't feel like it anymore. But here's what I came up with.

PoE : Town {Scum reading, teacher, wazoo, chennisden, persivul, skellen, zeito}

With that, it leaves ASC and Sekaedy as scum

I could replace ASC with chennisden, not sure how I feel on that slot yet. If town wants to lead a lynch on ASC, I'll vote accordingly. A second lynch, imo, would be sekaedy. Reason being every single town had a chance to look as town. I do justify Wazoo and persivul's push on me, I just think there's a misunderstanding and I may be bothering with my game play. I got that. Skelleden is providing content, although being a bit lurky, I don't mind that. Teacher is town, most probably, because of his posts and his votes. I liked his vote on chennisden and now his read on ASC might be justified, asc comes here and there and posts something but he didn't give any solid reads. I am reluctant to vote ASC still, but I will if we come to a consensus, besides, it will help with my PoE and everyone else's I think.

VOTE: ASC

Let me know what you guys think..

[GrandWazoo]

Things I don't get:

`) The argument that we should keep an erratic wolfy player around just because he's active. Sure, he may provoke useful intel/associations but it's a real sorting challenge due to the low signal-noise ratio. If it's early in the day, fine, but DL is fast approaching and I hatehatehate being in a position of compromise lynch. Happens a lot and rarely good for town. Also I am working Monday and will only be present sporadically and on phone.

2) The ASCwagon. My gut says this is a newb who is overwhelmed, can't decide what to do or how to do it. Hardly a town asset, but I don't think this warrants lynching. Change my mind if I'm off base here.

[scum reading]

If you can make a case against me that is not based on my game play, that would be great. I do believe you have a good reason for voting me because you aren’t used to my game play and you don’t like it, but I haven’t seen a case other than me switching votes in order to gain intel. I don’t pick on your game style, I’d appreciate if you didn’t pick on mine.

[scum reading]

I do believe you’re town, but after I responded to your case, you are still on me? What else do you want me to do? Why should I be lynched for being erratic? Let me be, how does that affect you in any way? I am the reason discussions were generated, I wasn’t the distraction. I’m just asking you to accept my game play as it is, I accepted teacher’s. As a town we have to cooperate, I didn’t push a lynch on teacher because of his way of townreading, I backed off and let him be. I feel attacked, this isn’t about clues anymore, there’s no reason to be on me, yet you still are. I responded to your case made on me and you neglected the response and you’re still pushing, how more reasonable do I have to be, how do you want me to confirm myself? You’re making a case against the player and not his actions anymore.

[GrandWazoo]

How about making the case that ASC is scum and not lynchbait. What would we learn from that lynch?

[scum reading]

It helps with PoE. Every mislynch gives information. If he’s not scum, then the next lynch would be sekaedy. For me, not a single active poster came off as scummy, at least not up to this point, so from my point of view, we just go for another lurker and lynch from that pool. One of ASC and Sekaedy has to be scum 100%.

[scum reading]

Oh, I read your question wrong, my bad. Well, if she flips scum, then we got a scum, so that’s good for town, we just continue scum hunting. If ASC came off as scum though, I’d look into a VCA and choose who I want to pressure from there. Her scum flip wouldn’t scream out “x is obvious scum if asc is scum”.

[scum reading]

The people scum reading ASC right now are my town reads, so I’d be surprised if this was a town flip.

[Rweyda7]

In

[scum reading]

In

Are you sekaedy’s replacement?

[GrandWazoo]

Oh, I read your question wrong, my bad. Well, if she flips scum, then we got a scum, so that’s good for town, we just continue scum hunting. If ASC came off as scum though, I’d look into a VCA and choose who I want to pressure from there. Her scum flip wouldn’t scream out “x is obvious scum if asc is scum”.

I'm asking you (and others on his wagon) why ASC is scum, as opposed to newbtown/lynchbait, and a good lynch as opposed to a compromise lynch. Looking through his ISO isn't this just as likely? His 27 strikes me as a townie who's somewhat baffled by his wagon but still OK with the discussion it generated. Isn't this what you're looking for from town?

[GrandWazoo]

Also why you townread ASC in 228 but scumread and voted him in 285, with ASC not having posted in between?

[Zeito]

Regarding scum reading (the player):
First off I think there's a line between wagon hopping and changing your reads, one is scummy and one is towny, but I'm leaning the latter on SR because it feels like they did it knowing they could be sr'd for it #165 (and then later shifts onto Persivul).

It’s not shady, I’m just a really indecisive person and I like to be as transparent as possible. I advocated for you not getting lynched in my first posts as well, I still stand by it, but regardless of the flip, I think this is the most beneficial lynch at the moment. Sorry, chennis

I think being indecisive is fair. I think we disagree on how far chennis would be helpful as an info-lynch if they flip town, though.

Also, I saw they asked to be hammered at some point. I do not know how to read defeatism.

However, scum reading has been putting townreads on players fairly unnecessarily, #182 highlights my thoughts on this, I would like you to provide some reasoning with these if possible, even just 'gutread'.

Regarding chennis:

It’s not shady, I’m just a really indecisive person and I like to be as transparent as possible. I advocated for you not getting lynched in my first posts as well, I still stand by it, but regardless of the flip, I think this is the most beneficial lynch at the moment. Sorry, chennis

VOTE: scum reading

Advocating policy is something scum does.

Finding and lynching scum is something town does.

Like I said before, I had originally voted teacher after they voted chennis because it felt like chennis was an easy push. However, I'm starting to scumread chennis more and more.
#165
"Scumreading seems like he wants to prevent my mislynch, but then he switches to voting me very fast. / Shady shady" You do this immediately after, townreading scum reading in #163 without much reasoning to do so, and then voting him after one post. Was your original townread just that frail?
You did give reasoning, however - "Advocating policy is something scum does." But I do feel he has a point, chennis would be an easy lynch in the later stages of the game. It comes off more to me as if he was just thinking it through more.
I'm inclined to vote chennisden, I think. I'll review at the bottom of my post.

Regarding GW:

@GW:
To begin with I usually have troubles with reading erratic players like SR. What indicates town in his case is his effort as he is aggressively lashing out in any directions to get a grip on other players. Although it bothers me that he tried twice to after the guy who hasn't even been in the thread for 2-3 days and is now finally getting replaced. In case of his interaction with teacher for me the most important post #152 is where he explains his motivation. I can sympathize with that attitude, because in my first game with teacher I had the very same mindset with instantly jumping at teacher at the first opening to get a better impression of his personality, even although definitely not that aggressive as SR does. Also I am doubting if scum!SR would have been that bold to provoke such a 1v1 with a player like teacher on Day 1 considering the attention it caused.

It's that very erratic style of play that's striking me as anti-town. Wagon-hopping betrays a lack of conviction, at best. Directing investigative roles 77 out of the gate. "Pushing" a player that isn't here, as you said. Saying the chennisden wagon is would be a waste of time 158 then doing an instant 180 and voting them 162. Declaring "pressure vote" on Persival without actually voting. Voting me 149 for still being in RVS after I'd explicitly stated it was now a real vote 108. As for the 1v1 with teacher, I see both sides making a big deal over trivial matters. No problem with this in principle, since it often gives the other players insights into the two players' alignments. But in this case I didn't come away with any better idea on how to sort them. I don't know if his push on teacher was "bold" or just distracting.

Chennisden has redeemed himself somewhat so

VOTE: SR

Sorry if you've already responded to this, I'm reading through and typing these out as I go. How has chennisden redeemed themself?

My problem isn't with your activity, SR, but in the nature thereof. Bandwagon-hopping and "swinging at random" IS distracting, hence anti-town. As is your push on teacher, based on a single post (which was itself about the ASCwagon over a single post) It would be like me jumping on teacher over the RVS opening-tip analogy. Trivial points like this don't merit pushes unless you show they're part of a larger scum agenda.

As Persivul says, orchestrating wagons for "pressure" is futile. If you think someone's scum, just vote them and say why. Now nobody will feel pressured by your vote because the target knows it's not a serious wagon and you'll be voting someone else in a page or two.

GW has continually cited SRs posts as distracting, but it seems they weren't that distracting (since you obtained a scumread off of them). I'm assuming I'm being pedantic and you meant more like "they meant to be distracting" but I have to agree that there wasn't much to distract from - scum doesn't tend to distract town with themself, at least not from the games I've played.
I do feel GW is justified in reading SRs votes as wagon hopping, he does change his reads a little quickly, and they seem a little unstable. He has mentioned his votes are like this however (whether you trust self pmeta like that or not) and like I said before, he has recognised that wagon-hopping is scummy yet seems to continue to do so to push for reads.

Regarding Persivul

I think he's made some strong points and shows effort to scumhunt, although many of them do seem to be metas. I'm fairly unsure of this slot, but I don't think it's the lynch for today.

A lynch on me would actually give zero information.

Why is that?

Last time I heard that argument, it was from scum. Just sayin'...[/quote]

Meta reads like this make it seem like you have reasoning to be scumreading something but without making you show us that reasoning. In this particular case, I do agree it feels a little scummy to argue that, but I would like you to show us more of what you're thinking, basically.


I'm sure there's a limit to the length of a post that y'all can take and it's 4am so I'm going to continue looking at this tomorrow. I will quickly summarise where I'll put my vote for now though, and where I would be willing to shift it to.

VOTE: chennisden

See "regarding chennisden" above. A lynch on TheASC would be fine too, but I have a stronger scumread on chennis right now, as well as the belief that if he were to flip town he would give more info than town!asc lynch.
I would also be happy with a lynch on GrandWazoo (see above).

I would prefer not to lynch Sekaedy, Skellen, teacher, or Persivul today. To me Skellen is bleeding town right now, I've commented on Persivul above, Sekaedy is inactive, and I no longer have a strong scumread on teacher.

As for a lynch on SR... possibly. I also wrote some thoughts about him above, and although it may look like I'm defending them, I mostly just want to distinguish between being indecisive and wagon-hopping. Whether or not I would feel comfortable voting SR I'm not completely sure about, so maybe they would be my fourth option to lynch today. Like I said, I'll post more tomorrow and hopefully we can reach a decent lynch.

[Zeito]

It’s not shady, I’m just a really indecisive person and I like to be as transparent as possible. I advocated for you not getting lynched in my first posts as well, I still stand by it, but regardless of the flip, I think this is the most beneficial lynch at the moment. Sorry, chennis

VOTE: scum reading

Advocating policy is something scum does.

Finding and lynching scum is something town does.

Lynching chennisden day one gives zero information, trust me, he’s one of those players. He’s so suspicious that he would be a safe vote for mafs to jump on his wagon and lynch him and people won’t suspect a thing because he’s that suspicious. That’s why I’d go for someone else

Scumreading seems like he wants to prevent my mislynch, but then he switches to voting me very fast.

Shady shady

His point is quite valid though.

So basically, the reason that I’m not advocating for a chennis lynch is because he plays scum EXACTLY as he plays town, he is extra suspicious, lurking (like he is right now) and so I’d rather have an investigative on them because there’s legit no way to read this dude

We might not have an investigative (jk/doc) and a person like that shouldn’t survive til lylo. Jus sayin.

Trying to work on that - I'm a newish player so I have a couple kinks in my gameplay to figure out as town.

And also I might be an easy mislynch during D1 but keep in mind I'm also an easy mislynch during LyLo

If you're gonna lynch me, do it when it has least bad impact and reveals the most information

@GW:
To begin with I usually have troubles with reading erratic players like SR. What indicates town in his case is his effort as he is aggressively lashing out in any directions to get a grip on other players. Although it bothers me that he tried twice to after the guy who hasn't even been in the thread for 2-3 days and is now finally getting replaced. In case of his interaction with teacher for me the most important post #152 is where he explains his motivation. I can sympathize with that attitude, because in my first game with teacher I had the very same mindset with instantly jumping at teacher at the first opening to get a better impression of his personality, even although definitely not that aggressive as SR does. Also I am doubting if scum!SR would have been that bold to provoke such a 1v1 with a player like teacher on Day 1 considering the attention it caused.

It's that very erratic style of play that's striking me as anti-town. Wagon-hopping betrays a lack of conviction, at best. Directing investigative roles 77 out of the gate. "Pushing" a player that isn't here, as you said. Saying the chennisden wagon is would be a waste of time 158 then doing an instant 180 and voting them 162. Declaring "pressure vote" on Persival without actually voting. Voting me 149 for still being in RVS after I'd explicitly stated it was now a real vote 108. As for the 1v1 with teacher, I see both sides making a big deal over trivial matters. No problem with this in principle, since it often gives the other players insights into the two players' alignments. But in this case I didn't come away with any better idea on how to sort them. I don't know if his push on teacher was "bold" or just distracting.

Chennisden has redeemed himself somewhat so

VOTE: SR

My problem isn't with your activity, SR, but in the nature thereof. Bandwagon-hopping and "swinging at random" IS distracting, hence anti-town. As is your push on teacher, based on a single post (which was itself about the ASCwagon over a single post) It would be like me jumping on teacher over the RVS opening-tip analogy. Trivial points like this don't merit pushes unless you show they're part of a larger scum agenda.

As Persivul says, orchestrating wagons for "pressure" is futile. If you think someone's scum, just vote them and say why. Now nobody will feel pressured by your vote because the target knows it's not a serious wagon and you'll be voting someone else in a page or two.

A lynch on me would actually give zero information.

Why is that?

Last time I heard that argument, it was from scum. Just sayin'...

I should probably have separated these out a little.

[Zeito]

Ugh, I didn't mean to requote those. Apologies for filling up y'alls' screens so much.