Jigsaw's Revenge - Game Over

[Drixx]

Hello all you lovely people. So I'm in a hood, and our dear mod declined to give us a roster of who is in there.

[Drixx]

Hello all you lovely people. So I'm in a hood, and our dear mod declined to give us a roster of who is in there.

I find it unusual that nobody has commented on this post.

I'm in a daychat PT too. There are at least 3 other players in it.

There are 21 players total, 16 town and 5 same-side scum.

Let's make some assumptions.

There are two neighborhoods or more, each with at least 4 players.

Nobody picked up on Drixx's post, because they don't want to out themselves as in his Private Topic or in a PT at all. If people weren't in a hood, they would be more interested in Drixx who claimed he was in one. Nothing in the setup said anything about PTs, except that daychat is active for all of them. So we have to assume everyone is in one.

Now what bothers me is the player count. Why 21 players and not 20? With 20 players, you can have 4-player or 5-player PTs with an even distribution.

21 can only be divided by 7. So are there 3 PTs, with 7 players each? If so, in my PT, 3 players have stayed on the sidelines so far, with 4 including myself announcing our presence, and in another PT, we know of Drixx.

What are possible distributions of scum in the PTs in 3 7-player PTs? 2-2-1, 2-3-0, or 5-0-0. The first one is the most likely (60%), the second one unlikely (30%), and the third option highly improbable (10%).

Therefore, if my assumption is correct that we're all in a PT, and that we all have scum in our PT, it's not safe to post our insights in the PTs as scum have daytalk and can share information, keeping the town out of the loop on content and slowing down scumhunting.

There's another possibility, however:

There could be a masons.

In this case, 21 players could break down like this:
3 masons in their hood
18 players remaining, 3 hoods with 6 players each

So here's what I'm thinking:
1) It's not safe to massclaim our PTs
2) It's safe for someone to claim not to be in a PT, although they might be lying about it and we don't have the means to verify.
3) If you're in a PT, you should announce your presence to the PT participants. Otherwise, you are damaging town cohesion and would therefore most likely be scum.
4) As the game progresses, if we clean out 2 scum from a single PT, it's probable that the remaining are town.

We're gonna get back to this in a bit ... but I just wanted to say that reading this post gave me the same vibe as watching someone solve a difficult Sudoko, while explaining the reasoning all the way through.

If you don't know that particular mental pleasure yet, let me introduce you:

[Drixx]

Hello all you lovely people. So I'm in a hood, and our dear mod declined to give us a roster of who is in there.

I find it unusual that nobody has commented on this post.

I'm in a daychat PT too. There are at least 3 other players in it.

There are 21 players total, 16 town and 5 same-side scum.

Let's make some assumptions.

There are two neighborhoods or more, each with at least 4 players.

Nobody picked up on Drixx's post, because they don't want to out themselves as in his Private Topic or in a PT at all. If people weren't in a hood, they would be more interested in Drixx who claimed he was in one. Nothing in the setup said anything about PTs, except that daychat is active for all of them. So we have to assume everyone is in one.

Now what bothers me is the player count. Why 21 players and not 20? With 20 players, you can have 4-player or 5-player PTs with an even distribution.

21 can only be divided by 7. So are there 3 PTs, with 7 players each? If so, in my PT, 3 players have stayed on the sidelines so far, with 4 including myself announcing our presence, and in another PT, we know of Drixx.

What are possible distributions of scum in the PTs in 3 7-player PTs? 2-2-1, 2-3-0, or 5-0-0. The first one is the most likely (60%), the second one unlikely (30%), and the third option highly improbable (10%).

Therefore, if my assumption is correct that we're all in a PT, and that we all have scum in our PT, it's not safe to post our insights in the PTs as scum have daytalk and can share information, keeping the town out of the loop on content and slowing down scumhunting.

There's another possibility, however:

There could be a masons.

In this case, 21 players could break down like this:
3 masons in their hood
18 players remaining, 3 hoods with 6 players each

So here's what I'm thinking:
1) It's not safe to massclaim our PTs
2) It's safe for someone to claim not to be in a PT, although they might be lying about it and we don't have the means to verify.
3) If you're in a PT, you should announce your presence to the PT participants. Otherwise, you are damaging town cohesion and would therefore most likely be scum.
4) As the game progresses, if we clean out 2 scum from a single PT, it's probable that the remaining are town.

What about membership in multiple? What do you think of the possibility of one being an unknown masonry? (Do we throw that out entirely because of the flavor? Jigsaw is always watching in the films right? I only saw the first one).

Has anyone in this game played with Morning Tweet before? I'm not really liking the vibes I'm getting from her, but I don't if that's normal.

Post #165 is a clear attempt at budding someone that appears to be a town leader going into the game, but her posts become most problematic when you get to Post #174.

"But what if it's

, like,

one of those doors"

When speaking out loud, people naturally add in filled words such as "like" or "um" to fill space because they are uncomfortable with silence while they are thinking. Making a post with the word "like" as Morning Tweet did here is not natural, it's a deliberate decision. The only possible motivation I can imagine for that decision is to appear more trustworthy/relateable. There's no reason for town to make that decision and for that reason, I VOTE: Morning Tweet.

Not liking this by momo at all. Stream of consciousness posts are so common in forum mafia as to be ubiquitous. I don't know how anyone could possibly type that "reasoning" with a straight face.

Has anyone in this game played with Morning Tweet before? I'm not really liking the vibes I'm getting from her, but I don't if that's normal.

Post #165 is a clear attempt at budding someone that appears to be a town leader going into the game, but her posts become most problematic when you get to Post #174.

"But what if it's

, like,

one of those doors"

When speaking out loud, people naturally add in filled words such as "like" or "um" to fill space because they are uncomfortable with silence while they are thinking. Making a post with the word "like" as Morning Tweet did here is not natural, it's a deliberate decision. The only possible motivation I can imagine for that decision is to appear more trustworthy/relateable. There's no reason for town to make that decision and for that reason, I .

I dig it VOTE: Morning Tweet

And then Battle Mage comes riding in here with this awful follow on. That deserves a vote imo:

VOTE: Battle Mage

I carefully yet bravely head through the door.

As you pass through the doorway, your worst fears are confirmed. You see Pine, momo, Morning Tweet, Elsa Jay, Gamma Emerald, VaultDweller, Vecna, Hectic, iDanyboy, GeorgeBailey, Drixx, davesaz, farside, Battle Mage, BBmolla, GuiltyLion, pisskop, Albert B. Rampage, Almost50, xtoxm, and Blake Belladonna, all inside at the edge of the room as well. The room is enormous and stretches off into the distance in a seeming labyrinth of bizarre machines, dripping pipes and rusting walls. Amidst the group, disturbing weapons lay about, including guns, knives, pipes, and other seemingly alien objects. As well, tools of investigation and healing can be seen.

It seems the madman who placed the tape intends to realize the game of Mafia in full. No longer will votes and posts make a difference. Now, you must all fight for your lives. A large timer lies above, slowly counting down. Another tape recorder lies at in front of you, unplayed. Do you play it?

I pick up a gun and try to shoot

Battle Mage

with it. If that doesn't do anything, I'll snag a tool of investigation in the follow on chaos erupting from my attempted kill shot.

Gamma Emerald
GeorgeBailey
GuiltyLion
momo
pisskop
Xtoxm
---
Elsa Jay
Almost50

For my own reference later.

Hi Hectic. Can you plz explain this partial ordered list? Just a sentence on each would be great. Don't just quote your later post at me because that list is different, and I want to know why you felt the need to post THIS one here in the thread, when if it was really for your own notes you could have put it in a PT or some other place for notes.

Gamma Emerald
GeorgeBailey
GuiltyLion
momo
pisskop
Xtoxm
---
Elsa Jay
Almost50

For my own reference later.

Great idea. This one is for my reference later...

Pine
momo
Morning Tweet
Elsa Jay
Gamma Emerald
VaultDweller
Vecna
Hectic
iDanyboy
GeorgeBailey
Drixx
davesaz
farside
Battle Mage
BBmolla
GuiltyLion
pisskop
Albert B. Rampage
Almost50
xtoxm
Blake Belladonna
Game Over

And here comes strike two from Battle Mage. An even worse blank ordered list, and done (again) as a response to someone else doing it first. This is really bad "monkey see/monkey do" play.

I'm in a PT with

Pine
momo - attack on the bat is so weird it's town, but depends on meta
Morning Tweet - maybe towny but might just be tone
Elsa Jay - awkward entrance, Bambi could be scum
Gamma Emerald - our savior and the protagonist of this story
VaultDweller
Vecna
iDanyboy - probably town
GeorgeBailey - GeorgeBailey
Drixx
davesaz - bit off
farside
Battle Mage - who knows with this guy
BBmolla
GuiltyLion - i will sheep GeorgeBailey
pisskop - natural and healthy
Albert B. Rampage - i reserve judgement for now
Almost50 - disliked joke response to my question, pointing out "crumb"
xtoxm - okay push on farside
Blake Belladonna - Hello.

To be very clear ... this is what I don't want you to point at. Explain the original list as asked Hectic. Thanks.

[Drixx]

at this stage we may as well just claim who is in what hood. can designated hood champions please list the people they think are in their hoods and someone can keep a tally.

Vetoed.

[Drixx]

Why are wagoning battle mage?

I can explain the drixx one - it's cause he thought I posted a legit reads list with myself ranked somewhere in the middle.

See it's interesting ... it's very difficult for scum to avoid taking swipes like this. Dishonest is dishonest though, and you got VOTED by me for doing something else. The fact that you want people to think differently is telling. It's like you want them to overlook the actual thing that made me vote you. You actually read Momo's #184 and then quoted it and decided it was

sound

reasoning to vote for someone.

Yeah, Drixx not looking at the front page whether it was just a copy of the playerlist is kinda.....yikes

Vecna gets scum points for trying to help momo sell that bullshit.

Yeah, Drixx not looking at the front page whether it was just a copy of the playerlist is kinda.....yikes

Ninja'd me here on my last post but this completely.

And oh look ... momo

ALSO

wants to perpetuate a lie.

[Drixx]

Cast a net, catch some fish.

[Drixx]

EBWOP: Vecna gets scum points for helping BATTLE MAGE sell his bullshit. Momo was involved but not the direct purveyor of said stinky load. He also tried to sell it to you though. Unless you like carts full of bullshit, maybe you should wonder why those three are trying to sell you one.

[Drixx]

EBWOP: Vecna gets scum points for helping BATTLE MAGE sell his bullshit. Momo was involved but not the direct purveyor of said stinky load. He also tried to sell it to you though. Unless you like carts full of bullshit, maybe you should wonder why those three are trying to sell you one.

What?

Someone posts a readslist.

Battle mage OBVIOUSLY ridicules said person by copying the player list in reaction

You come and try to paint it as scummy what battle mage does, and then attack the people that point out you just did a whoosh?

VOTE: Drixx

And Vecna pulls a KM and pretends to misunderstand and scum read for his failure to understand. I haven't exactly laid down any dissertations yet. Short easy to digest posts. Vecna already got called for helping reinforce the bullshit claim that I voted BM for the reads list, which I already pointed out was a BS misrep and what does Vecna do? He nitpicks a post that I did an EBWOP for because I typed "momo" instead of "Battlemage" and tries to pretend he actually believes I made a temporal order mistake and ... then proceeds to try to sell you all the bullshit claim, again, that my vote came as a result of one thing when it clearly happened in response to something else.

So ... who benefits from obfuscating really clear things in mafia games?

I'm like 99.9% of the way to swapping my vote to Vecna at this point. Either too lazy to actually read short posts or scum. There's literally no other possibility space now.

[Drixx]

How many players are in your PT?

Don't know ... we didn't get a roster. Seven players and the mod have posted so far.

[Drixx]

I love all the shade on my day one pushes. Since I changed up how I'm doing day one, I've had a 100% success rate on finding scum on day one. Fite me scum!

[Drixx]

momo's reasoning on morning tweet is weak and battle mage looks bad for jumping on it so quickly

We have a winner! Vecna seems to have succeeded in getting people to ignore it, but my vote went on BM for that bullshit jump on. The comment about the "reads list" was in relation to it being "someone else posted a "reads list" so I'll post a "reads list" too!" play. Monky see/Monky do is bad pretty much always.

Please note that hectic has dodged the fuck out of the game since I asked for his actual reads list to get some explanation. Meanwhile Vecna has been on a crusade to misrep and cherry pick me into looking absurd.

I've seen that playbook in action before.

VOTE: Vecna <--- that can eat rope. Had plenty of chance to re-read simple posts and adjust to reality. At this point has to be intentionally doing it and there's nothing at all useful about play like that. That shit needs to get flushed.


P-Edit: Hood is up to 8 players now.

[Drixx]

I find myself disagreeing with most of what Rampage is saying in the latter stages. My town read on him is dwindling.

Why does you disagreeing with him mean that he's scum?

[Drixx]

Corollary question: why would someone saying something you agree with make them town?

[Drixx]

Ive only asked you to clarify one thing Drixx:

Did you, or did you not REALIZE that battle mage copied the player list as a joke and represented it as his reads list to mock the person doing it before him.

Because you called it strike two as to why he is scummy.

Re-read my post: I called the behavior of posting it in copy-cat style scummy. Like ... the entire emphasis of my comment towards it was on the "monkey see/monkey do" aspect. You can clearly understand my thinking if you take a few moments to read what I typed and think about what produces that content.

[Drixx]

And know that if you ignore this again and talk over it, I will instantly day vig you

Go for it Wyatt. Then you eat rope tomorrow. I'm happy with a 1-for-1 trade.

[Drixx]

It seemed like a clear joke to me, yet you ignored the joke aspect and thought it was scummy because he was copying someone.

If you missed the part that it was a joke, thats fine, just admit that shit and dont blow this crap up like its something big.

My focus was on the follow on nature of what BM was doing at the time. First he followed on to some horrendous logic and plopped a vote down. Then he copied Hectic.

He got my vote for supposedly "buying" the logic that stream of consciousness posting is scummy. He got quoted and mentioned again to point out the pattern.

There's literally nothing more to it.

[Drixx]

I carefully yet bravely head through the door.

As you pass through the doorway, your worst fears are confirmed. You see Pine, momo, Morning Tweet, Elsa Jay, Gamma Emerald, VaultDweller, Vecna, Hectic, iDanyboy, GeorgeBailey, Drixx, davesaz, farside, Battle Mage, BBmolla, GuiltyLion, pisskop, Albert B. Rampage, Almost50, xtoxm, and Blake Belladonna, all inside at the edge of the room as well. The room is enormous and stretches off into the distance in a seeming labyrinth of bizarre machines, dripping pipes and rusting walls. Amidst the group, disturbing weapons lay about, including guns, knives, pipes, and other seemingly alien objects. As well, tools of investigation and healing can be seen.

It seems the madman who placed the tape intends to realize the game of Mafia in full. No longer will votes and posts make a difference. Now, you must all fight for your lives. A large timer lies above, slowly counting down. Another tape recorder lies at in front of you, unplayed. Do you play it?

I pick up a gun and try to shoot

Battle Mage

with it. If that doesn't do anything, I'll snag a tool of investigation in the follow on chaos erupting from my attempted kill shot.

What happened to this? @Mod?

I assumed since the mod came back since then that it did nothing and the flavor text was just to tell us that CYOA is done for the day. We have to kill someone first, and that will be via lynch presumably.

[Drixx]

I still dont understand your logic, and I dont see why youre not willing to see how other people found it weird how you worded that point and are so aggressive about it.

So what you're saying is that your motivation here is to try and declare "gotcha!" while ignoring everything else. The ONLY thing you see is that someone apparently missed a joke, and that's all you want to talk about?

Get the fuck outta here.

[Drixx]

I am caught up.

BBMolla is town.
Hectic is town.
GeorgeBailey is town.
farside is town.
Battle Mage is town.
Almost50 is town.

Xtoxm is likely town, although I will need more to lock this in like the above.
GuiltyLion can be town for right now. I place a low confidence on this read and believe I will have better luck refining this read over time.
Vecna is likely town.
momo is likely town.
VaultDweller is likely town.

Pine, Morning Tweet, Albert B. Rampage, davesaz, pisskop, and iDanyboy are slots I feel unsure about in one direction or another.

Elsa Jay is a scumread, albeit one I place no confidence in. I would likely only wagon this as a compromise.
Gamma Emerald is a scumread, albeit this is a gut read.

Drixx is scum.

VOTE: Drixx

You decided to point out that your GE read is a "gut" read, which implies the ones you didn't label that way have reasoning. Please provide said reasoning. For me especially.

This should be good.

[Drixx]

It's not acceptable to attack someone IRL Vecna. It's especially bad to refer to them as "cuckoo". Cut that shit out.

[Drixx]

That's pretty tame. I got yelled at once for saying someone was psycho but that's just my language. English evolved in weird ways.

Self censoring sucks.

Attacking someone's mental state is not ever "tame". I'm generally fairly anti-PC as a rule, but I am pretty firmly against personal attacks in mafia. They don't advance the game. They only make it toxic. Please don't defend toxic.

[Drixx]

Off to work.

[Drixx]

Attacking someone's mental state is not ever "tame". I'm generally fairly anti-PC as a rule, but I am pretty firmly against personal attacks in mafia. They don't advance the game. They only make it toxic. Please don't defend toxic.

There are a whole bunch of terms for

behavior

which is out of proportion to the threat. A comment on behavior is not a comment about the individual personally. A lot of them are synonyms for "irrational". Interpreting those as comments about mental state is a problem with the receiver, it is not a problem with the sender. I don't buy this for a second as being a real reaction. If it is a real reaction you don't belong on this site at all.

When you talk about it being "real" do you mean the idea that I'm personally offended? Of course I'm not. It generally takes a pretty significant amount of shittery to actually get to me personally. But there are many people who don't play on this site anymore who I really enjoyed playing with, and they don't play here because people were allowed to take a swing at them personally, and if ever they spoke up, people piled on and told them to grow a thicker skin.

So ... as a general rule, I point it out and ask people to do better. When I notice it. Which is much more likely (but not universally) to be when it's aimed at me.

So ... it's real in the sense that I'd prefer people confine attacks to the substance of rhetoric and play ... but it's not "real" in that I'm not feeling like I need to question my sanity because Vecna called me crazy.


Also ... got FINALLY sent home with my equipment for work from home. Hooray.

[Drixx]

It's not acceptable to attack someone IRL Vecna. It's especially bad to refer to them as "cuckoo". Cut that shit out.

Describing your reaction to me as "going cookoo" has nothing to do with your IRL.

to throw in some more buzzwords, why all the misrep boo?

"going cuckoo" is colloquial for saying someone is crazy, right?

[Drixx]

Anyways, maybe im just being distracted by the wrong thing here.

@Drixx; this is my reasoning. As town id expect you to try and at least get me to respond to your actual case and discuss that with me. Easy enough to try and move past the one detail that was flawed. In hindsight, in your later posts there was some of that and im actually going to try and engage with that now.

However, this whole interaction has given me a whiff of what might also be going on: Namely, you as scum being aware you just got slapped on the finger for actual good reasoning, and you wanting to obfuscate and distract from that because you give more weight to my little gotcha than it ever should have. Noone cared about it, but you did quite a bit. Now, maybe this was just because youre town and we missed eachothers meanings.....but you keep on going with making things worse for some reason. I dont get it why you would as town?

Go look at Wake's 50 player game that didn't get finished. Someone behaved nearly identical to how you were behaving towards me there. They were scum. I was not. I'm not scum here either. The people who know me well already weighed in with town reads for a reason.

And that's day one play from me because of how I game solve. I'm going to push people on things that don't make rational sense and judge them based upon how they RESPOND to the push.

Sadly you came in and had the poor response, which has let BM and Hectic (the two people I wanted responses from) basically skate away without responding. Both have been back and neither engaged.

[Drixx]

farside - why am I your 2nd strongest scum read?

[Drixx]

Well I went back over your first argument drixx, and I see where youre coming from.

I must admit I did a very surface level pass on Momo's post and ill agree with you the contents are actually laughable, especially since the "like" referenced was in a roleplaying post (and my comment stating liking Momo for town based on that post was crap). oops

To add some more thoughts; I dont know if scum actually do come up with a line of attack like that or if its just town trying to be a smartass and copy some out there theory they saw before that makes no sense.

Whether that makes battle mage scum for sheeping and voting on tweet straight away? Could be, but im not very convinced that is the case, since clearly I also just flew right over that post.

I should probably go and form my own opinion on this shit

Ok, I think the current way Vecna is defending himself seems Townie. Scum wouldn't really admit their mistake here, and would more likely die on their hill.

I think Pine is probably the most I want to see pushed right now. I don't think I trust the members on the IDany wagon, and I don't think Elsa is honestly that scummy.

VOTE: Pine

In general I feel like mistake admission is a personality thing more than an alignment thing.

Also I kinda pointed out that the last person to go all over the top "you're scummy and bad and should die IRL" on me about a day 1 push followed by me clamping down when the reaction was bad ... was scum.

Need to mull it over.

[Drixx]

Also my hood has died basically. Nobody in there seems motivated to talk at all.

When someone questioned the die off, another someone told them to scum hunt in the main thread.

Of those two responses to the hood going dry ... I feel like the "don't use it, just scum hunt in the main thread" response is maybe questionable. Thoughts?

[Drixx]

@Drixx, speaking of, you never answered my question, unless I missed it.

Vecna and momo hard defending battle mage like that is interesting. I can't see two teammates defending him so early in the game, unless he has a very powerful role. Though it could be that vecna is town and scum!momo jumped on vecna's defense of battle mage. Not sure what to think of the whole thing, but there's a good chance there's scum in it, probably either Drixx or Battle Mage/momo.

@Drixx, what are your thoughts on this? Do you think all 3 are scum? What are your thoughts on momo?

VOTE: Drixx

For ignoring me.

Like ... I already gave thoughts on all three. And then I've interacted more with Vecna since AND commented that BM took the opportunity of Vecna's smokescreen to avoid responding to me. What more you want?

[Drixx]

Context counts. Literally everyone who bothered to respond about BM was throwing a town read on him. Not really feeling trying to push someone through a wall of town reads. Not sure what he's done that warrants ANY read, but that's something to look at as the game progresses a bit further.

[Drixx]

Like ... my "read" on him consisted of questioning how on earth he thought "they used the word "like" in their post" was a good reason to vote someone. That's not much to go on. It was meant to get a response from BM but didn't.

[Drixx]

I am caught up.

BBMolla is town.
Hectic is town.
GeorgeBailey is town.
farside is town.
Battle Mage is town.
Almost50 is town.

Xtoxm is likely town, although I will need more to lock this in like the above.
GuiltyLion can be town for right now. I place a low confidence on this read and believe I will have better luck refining this read over time.
Vecna is likely town.
momo is likely town.
VaultDweller is likely town.

Pine, Morning Tweet, Albert B. Rampage, davesaz, pisskop, and iDanyboy are slots I feel unsure about in one direction or another.

Elsa Jay is a scumread, albeit one I place no confidence in. I would likely only wagon this as a compromise.
Gamma Emerald is a scumread, albeit this is a gut read.

Drixx is scum.

VOTE: Drixx

You decided to point out that your GE read is a "gut" read, which implies the ones you didn't label that way have reasoning. Please provide said reasoning. For me especially.

This should be good.

Your push onto Battle Mage initially was fine, but the way you stretched it into a multi-page monstrosity over something that draws the eye as something that isn't particularly noteworthy isn't genuine. Based on this combined with Albert B. Rampage's reads and the way you've been treating him this game, I do not see this as a town approach to the game.

Go look at Wake's 50 player that was called off recently. You can find it by looking in my profile. Look at my interaction with KM. Then decide whether that's genuine or not.

[Drixx]

ABR mostly gets a pass from me for the first couple days in a game. This is from bitter experience of what happens if we're both town and I pick up a false positive on him. He gets re-evaluated every couple days real time, more often if something prompts it, and if and when I have a case that I think is strong enough to be worth the inevitable clash in the game that will come of it, then I'll post it.

We all have the people we just would rather not go down those roads with unless we're certain. If you say you don't, you either have very little experience with this or you're lying.

[Drixx]

I am caught up.

BBMolla is town.
Hectic is town.
GeorgeBailey is town.
farside is town.
Battle Mage is town.
Almost50 is town.

Xtoxm is likely town, although I will need more to lock this in like the above.
GuiltyLion can be town for right now. I place a low confidence on this read and believe I will have better luck refining this read over time.
Vecna is likely town.
momo is likely town.
VaultDweller is likely town.

Pine, Morning Tweet, Albert B. Rampage, davesaz, pisskop, and iDanyboy are slots I feel unsure about in one direction or another.

Elsa Jay is a scumread, albeit one I place no confidence in. I would likely only wagon this as a compromise.
Gamma Emerald is a scumread, albeit this is a gut read.

Drixx is scum.

VOTE: Drixx

You decided to point out that your GE read is a "gut" read, which implies the ones you didn't label that way have reasoning. Please provide said reasoning. For me especially.

This should be good.

Your push onto Battle Mage initially was fine, but the way you stretched it into a multi-page monstrosity over something that draws the eye as something that isn't particularly noteworthy isn't genuine. Based on this combined with Albert B. Rampage's reads and the way you've been treating him this game, I do not see this as a town approach to the game.

Go look at Wake's 50 player that was called off recently. You can find it by looking in my profile. Look at my interaction with KM. Then decide whether that's genuine or not.

What is your precise conclusion with this post?

Your premise is that I wouldn't genuinely have gone back and forth with Vecna the way I did. I'm pointing you to literally the most recent game where I did precisely the same thing with a similar starting point ... and caught scum (although they got killed at night because they waged a relentless campaign of shitting on me the rest of day one).

So your premise fails, at least when applied to me in particular.

Update your priors.

[Drixx]

That is not the type of answer I was looking for, though I understand the confusion.

What is the precise conclusion you are expecting me to reach?

-Blake

Just reassess. If you have some other reason to think I'm scum, then rock on with your bad self. If it was solely feeling that I was making a show and wasn't actually genuinely pushing ... then you have strong evidence to contradict your thinking.

I'll evaluate the rest of the answers you gave after I sleep. Was a draining shift tonight.

[Drixx]

I don’t think I - nope, I didn’t stutter.

I was just surprised.

So fun fact I looked at the game Drixx referenced and he did fight with a player that was scum. He voted and kept his vote on that player and from what I saw he did say a player was scum helping there buddy (I didn't see if the player was that players buddy) but all that said there are differences.
Most important was the case on Venca was built on something that didn't occur and Drixx hasn't really followed up pushing the scum read with anything really valid.
So it didn't change my view on Drixx in this game.

*looks at time left in day for game*

I can wait.

It's

almost

as if Drixx were a real live human being who changes over time, and he realized that how he went about things in that instance wasn't ideal and so he adjusted.

I mean ... that's one hypothesis anyway.

[Drixx]

@BB - no idea who you are. I generally don't go trying to work out who is an alt of whom unless someone is paying me the unpleasant kind of personal attention.

As far as it goes ... I've got what feels like a weak role this game, so if I was going to eat early rope to prove to some people that I'm way more nuanced than they give me credit for ... seems like an okay time to do it.

Someone (GL?) said that I play self centric. I thought about that for a bit. I suppose it's obviously true, so the question is why and whether that's good or bad. FFT.

[Drixx]

I got a townread on Pine out of the last few pages

a few people are asking about BM case - I feel his engagement with a lot of early game content was super light and perhaps it's due to his V/LA but he seemed to stop being involved as soon as the actual game picked up - this is a patten I see from scum often. At the time of me voting him I believed two of the other main bandwagons (Vecna and myself) were bad wagons, and I had just re-evaluated on danyBoy (the other, other wagon, which I had been pushing), so the BM votes felt to me like the best chance to follow along and find scum.

Funny enough Drixx is one of those slots for me that he was referring to as "you don't like going down that road unless you're sure", I def agree he's been overdramatic and making things more about himself than they actually are or need to be, but that's my experience of how he plays regardless of alignment, and I don't know if anything I've seen has felt like it moved the needle on him being more likely to be scum. It does feel weird that he's avoiding the BM wagon especially after I reversed my read on him, but I almost feel scum!Drixx would see it as easy to hop onto a town!BM by this point and not take that route, so either they're scum together or Drixx is townie for that.

MT bleeding town for me by this point. I'd also join a davesaz wagon.
p-edit: let's do it

VOTE: davesaz

Lion, youre a champ at putting quite a few of my feelings into words.

Im really waffling on Drixx. On the one hand, his response to me was very surface level bad. But Drixx is not a surface level player, and I could also see town act frustrated when others only react to the part of your wagon that did have a hole in it and ignore the rest (the rest that was pretty small though). If he really felt we were torpedoing his questioning of BM, then why not just tell us to fuck off and continue it? Portraying me as scummy instead and going on that crusade is still a bit weird. Its also how I caught his hydra in civ Mafia, although there his reaction was a lot more aggressive and over the top still.

Dave for me feels different, like (dont get triggered momo), every game I play with him these days. So different from 1-2+ years ago. I really do not think I can read him at all.

Xtomx is also really going down-down-down on my readslist. I thought this was gonna be a game where I could townread him, but there really was zero followup with substance.

Just nit picking here but... didn't I play solo in Civ mafia, and only for like ... part of day one? My brain says that I went into that game coming off SU2, and I got put onto a scum team with Mastina, which I tried to make work but given how the end of SU2 went, I felt like it was bad for me to stay in the game. So I replaced out.

So umm... maybe link me what you're talking about?

[Drixx]

Why the Hectic townreads?

seconded

[Drixx]

I got a townread on Pine out of the last few pages

a few people are asking about BM case - I feel his engagement with a lot of early game content was super light and perhaps it's due to his V/LA but he seemed to stop being involved as soon as the actual game picked up - this is a patten I see from scum often. At the time of me voting him I believed two of the other main bandwagons (Vecna and myself) were bad wagons, and I had just re-evaluated on danyBoy (the other, other wagon, which I had been pushing), so the BM votes felt to me like the best chance to follow along and find scum.

Funny enough Drixx is one of those slots for me that he was referring to as "you don't like going down that road unless you're sure", I def agree he's been overdramatic and making things more about himself than they actually are or need to be, but that's my experience of how he plays regardless of alignment, and I don't know if anything I've seen has felt like it moved the needle on him being more likely to be scum. It does feel weird that he's avoiding the BM wagon especially after I reversed my read on him, but I almost feel scum!Drixx would see it as easy to hop onto a town!BM by this point and not take that route, so either they're scum together or Drixx is townie for that.

MT bleeding town for me by this point. I'd also join a davesaz wagon.
p-edit: let's do it

VOTE: davesaz

Lion, youre a champ at putting quite a few of my feelings into words.

Im really waffling on Drixx. On the one hand, his response to me was very surface level bad. But Drixx is not a surface level player, and I could also see town act frustrated when others only react to the part of your wagon that did have a hole in it and ignore the rest (the rest that was pretty small though). If he really felt we were torpedoing his questioning of BM, then why not just tell us to fuck off and continue it? Portraying me as scummy instead and going on that crusade is still a bit weird. Its also how I caught his hydra in civ Mafia, although there his reaction was a lot more aggressive and over the top still.

Dave for me feels different, like (dont get triggered momo), every game I play with him these days. So different from 1-2+ years ago. I really do not think I can read him at all.

Xtomx is also really going down-down-down on my readslist. I thought this was gonna be a game where I could townread him, but there really was zero followup with substance.

Just nit picking here but... didn't I play solo in Civ mafia, and only for like ... part of day one? My brain says that I went into that game coming off SU2, and I got put onto a scum team with Mastina, which I tried to make work but given how the end of SU2 went, I felt like it was bad for me to stay in the game. So I replaced out.

So umm... maybe link me what you're talking about?

It was the day1a discussion about what wonder to build for the game

I mean ... I replaced out super early and my slot never got lynched. I guess you hang your hat where you can but if you 'caught' me, why didn't you get me lynched?

[Drixx]

I don’t think I - nope, I didn’t stutter.

I was just surprised.

So fun fact I looked at the game Drixx referenced and he did fight with a player that was scum. He voted and kept his vote on that player and from what I saw he did say a player was scum helping there buddy (I didn't see if the player was that players buddy) but all that said there are differences.
Most important was the case on Venca was built on something that didn't occur and Drixx hasn't really followed up pushing the scum read with anything really valid.
So it didn't change my view on Drixx in this game.

*looks at time left in day for game*

I can wait.

It's

almost

as if Drixx were a real live human being who changes over time, and he realized that how he went about things in that instance wasn't ideal and so he adjusted.

I mean ... that's one hypothesis anyway.

So you bring up the same to show similarities about fighting but anything else is saying you changed.

Lovely.

I would suggest that I made far less of a fuss this game, and I have been way less aggressive.

But you know ... over generalizations are awesome too.

[Drixx]

What is your thoughts on ABR's reason for town reading you?

I don't townread EJ.

Sorry your right. You didn't want to for her for voting GL, even though it wasn't because of a scum read.
That make less sense logic to me.

@Drixx: I'm not going to have a quote war on the subject. Simply put you stopped once players called it scummy and since then you have been defending the reason because of that game.

I mean ... think what you want. Your scum equity keeps rising as you continue to try and insist that !reality is reality though. I'm not nearly invested enough to think I'm going to endgame, so there's going to come a time when I flip.

Consider this my dying request, whenever I die:

Remember farside (who has a lengthy history with me and I think respects my ability to employ rationalism to solve mafia games) insisted on putting an irrational line of argument.

I don't see any reason to take it further than that. I'm incredibly unlikely to eat rope today, and you know that. So ... humor me and pretend you believe I'm town and talk to me about some things that caught your interest that you think I would benefit from taking a look at. Engage me with some convo about the actual game instead of whether or not it's plausible that town!Drixx (who recently came back to site) is experimenting with different day 1 things, because his day 1 play has always been awful.

Like ... you're not gonna get me roped today, so if you

really

think I'm scum, engage and see if you can get me to go on the record about lots of things.

Like ... that's how to play the game. Don't fall to the meme lords.

~D

P.S. - I genuinely love being in games with you, and I hope you know that my affection is genuine, even when I'm frustrating you.

[Drixx]

Like ... ask Cerb. You're one of our top-x favorite people.

[Drixx]

Vecna wasn’t in that game unless it was an alt, so I don’t know what he’s talking about. I usually regard neighborhoods with thinly-veiled contempt and largely ignore them - much as I’m doing with both of the hoods I’m in this game.

Both, eh? Have you posted in both?

[Drixx]

Spoiler:

What is your thoughts on ABR's reason for town reading you?

I don't townread EJ.

Sorry your right. You didn't want to for her for voting GL, even though it wasn't because of a scum read.
That make less sense logic to me.

@Drixx: I'm not going to have a quote war on the subject. Simply put you stopped once players called it scummy and since then you have been defending the reason because of that game.

I mean ... think what you want. Your scum equity keeps rising as you continue to try and insist that !reality is reality though. I'm not nearly invested enough to think I'm going to endgame, so there's going to come a time when I flip.

Consider this my dying request, whenever I die:

Remember farside (who has a lengthy history with me and I think respects my ability to employ rationalism to solve mafia games) insisted on putting an irrational line of argument.

I don't see any reason to take it further than that. I'm incredibly unlikely to eat rope today, and you know that. So ... humor me and pretend you believe I'm town and talk to me about some things that caught your interest that you think I would benefit from taking a look at. Engage me with some convo about the actual game instead of whether or not it's plausible that town!Drixx (who recently came back to site) is experimenting with different day 1 things, because his day 1 play has always been awful.

Like ... you're not gonna get me roped today, so if you

really

think I'm scum, engage and see if you can get me to go on the record about lots of things.

Like ... that's how to play the game. Don't fall to the meme lords.

~D

P.S. - I genuinely love being in games with you, and I hope you know that my affection is genuine, even when I'm frustrating you.

@drixx: i am a bit frustrated with you. You went on a tangent, dropped your read on bm to attack venca and at this point i have no clue whom your scum reads are.
I personally would love the bm wagon to get back on.

VOTE: bm

I actually feel like my original reason for voting BM is still valid. It's just that a large enough group of active people showed up to express a town read. Too many to assume it's scum white knighting. And BM got a pass from responding to me apparently. (As did Hectic).

[Drixx]

I'd like a bit more than that. You took the time to separate out specific people. Just the things that produced their spot as townie or scummie would be useful. Thx.

[Drixx]

This looks a lot like ABR trying to rescue Drixx.

Answer my question.

[Drixx]

A) What question
B) Probably not worth my time

You claimed to be in multiple hoods, which makes you unique as far as we know.

HAVE YOU POSTED IN BOTH OF THEM?

[Drixx]

@BB - no idea who you are. I generally don't go trying to work out who is an alt of whom unless someone is paying me the unpleasant kind of personal attention.

Blake Belladonna is an open Ankamius/Alyssa the Lamb alt.

So ... apparently blank votes are bad, right?

Also ... hi Ank.

[Drixx]

Just doing a flyby. Got kind of sick at the end of my Friday night work shift and just been resting. I've got a few pages to catch up on, which I'll do during tonight's work shift.

Also ... got some pretty big RL stuff the next 4-5 days.

@Mod: V/LA until 5/1/2020 please

[Drixx]

I'm gonna just give a little bit of /side-eye to Cakez and then carry on under the assumption that there must be a metric shit ton I'm missing from the my game theory atm.

Someone from my hood asked that we not do anything dramatic in the game until they can post, so I'll just sit over here and wait for them.

[Drixx]

STILL waiting for GE to show up and spill his guts.

[Drixx]

Can we lynch Battle Mage? I'm getting super duper scum vibes there.

[Drixx]

The only thing to say on this, is I am convinced ABR is scum. ABR seems to think I'm town, although did also crumb that I was Jigsaw (not sure why).

This dual approach is actually a scumtell and ABR’s actions recently add to this particular issue

The fact ABR didn’t even seem to think to push BM until Drixx initiated the idea is super awful. It also, despite my initial shocked response, probably indicates Drixx being Town.

I'm really getting serious scum vibes out of BM, specifically today.

And for ABR, getting ragey is a town tell. Or at least it was a few years ago.

[Drixx]

The personal attacks and angry posting are highlights of ABR's town play from what I remember.

[Drixx]

I think BM’s case on ABR is good. Now him trying to get any lynch through doesn’t help that. I don’t for what possible reason he is getting so angry at BM. Him not addressing BM’s case and just attacking him instead of the argument. I think BM and ABR have very similar play styles and to see ABR get so angry at a miss lynch doesn’t add up. You will miss lynch as town and I’m sure ABR has so why is he so mad at BM for?

Setup speculation and flavor speculation aren't a case. BM's posting today is a story. It doesn't have any rational basis. In some posited world where ABR were scum, BM is essentially a blind squirrel.

[Drixx]

BTW I never get angry as scum, so it's ridiculous to me to take a 13 year meta, of me never losing my cool when I'm scum, and with that proven track record, people still think I can be scum here because "maybe on his 200th game he will do something different". It's clownish.

Gamma and Dany are lurkscum all the way to day 3 where they are more active to try to mislynch, they have done nothing town for the entire game.

Buddy that’s known as a trust tell. Not saying this means anything for your appearance, just stating the facts.

No it's not. If he had said "I always do X as Y, but never as Z" that's a trust tell. To violate the rule the player has to assert that they take a specific action only as a specific alignment, and then try and leverage that for gain.

This actually fails as a trust tell example for multiple reasons but I think that's the easiest one to spot.

[Drixx]

The SAW franchise is all about subverting expectations. iDanny's claim actually makes me more inclined to think he might be scum.

BM's play here is setting of alarm bells of another player on site and what they did at last year's MU championships in our game (I was representing my home site). I could never quite make a logical case against them the whole game, but I kept coming back to them as scum. And they were.

That doesn't prove anything this game, of course, but "gut" is just another way of saying "My brain is trying to tell me something I didn't catch".

[Drixx]

I am more inclined to buy Dany's claim given what Gamma is saying about him stating that Jigsaw was in the hood. I don't think scum is likely to have the foresight to plant that seed ahead of time in order to make his claim more believable.

I mean ... I think you're short selling scum GL. At least ... any time I'm scum or I'm scum with Cerb in hydra, we're actively planting seeds right from the start for anything we can think of that might bear fruit along role or flavor lines.

[Drixx]

Vecna is also outside hoods, but I instinctively believe his claim. Although if VaultDweller hasn't already confirmed it, can someone please get him to do so? Just to verify that his flavour also includes something about looking for his son.

There is no mention of a son in my role, but I mean, if someones going to clear me as town, who am I to second guess them?

I think Vecna also mentioned that I didn't know about him

And just like that ...

[Drixx]

Vecna is also outside hoods, but I instinctively believe his claim. Although if VaultDweller hasn't already confirmed it, can someone please get him to do so? Just to verify that his flavour also includes something about looking for his son.

There is no mention of a son in my role, but I mean, if someones going to clear me as town, who am I to second guess them?

I think Vecna also mentioned that I didn't know about him

And just like that ...

Cmon, give us some more than this simple rub n tug

If youre going to be suspicious about me, at least do it properly

You just aren't that dense. VaultDweller can't clear you. That

could

mean that you are a one way IC clear for him when you die. Or it could mean you are scum and you have a cool fake claim that you're taking advantage of.

It's interesting that YOU decided to bite on my post. It was much more meant to be aimed at VD who somehow apparently didn't take 10 seconds to think through the implications. But then YOU are the one who felt a prick and had to respond?

[Drixx]

You're either:

1.) Making a supreme logical fallacy in ascribing motive to my play style. There's nearly 20 years of games between here and my home site that back up the fact that I play as much as I have time for. I don't super frequently join a game and then lack for time (generally when I'm busy I don't sign up: see my long absence prior to a couple months ago for example)... but activity and engagement are never AI for me.

OR

2.) Scum intentionally trying to make me look sinister.


The point still remains that I was more interested in why VD seemed to just take it at face value. I wasn't even really attempting to engage you and yet you've gotten yourself pretty worked up.

[Drixx]

Again you make assumptions you shouldn't. Skimming the thread because I don't have time to read deeply isn't really "reading the thread" for me.

So like ... by all means see if you can drive a mislynch on me, but you'll pay for it.

[Drixx]

I can confirm I am not just a neighbor.

It's hilarious that people are taking Vecna's claim at face value. There's totally no way in a Saw themed game that the bad guys could possibly have a role that ICs a townie. Also no way that it could be scum "clearing" scum. Totally not worth even thinking about, fo sho.

[Drixx]

The thing is ... there wasn't any reason for the claim to happen when it did ... which is why I actually took a little time to think about it.

[Drixx]

The thing is ... there wasn't any reason for the claim to happen when it did ... which is why I actually took a little time to think about it.

As for my reveal, my role is literally that im someone's son. Apparently ive disappeared, ran away from home or something, and my dad is most likely being a badass and searching for me. Not sure if that role flavour has any relation to game mechanics or if its just fluff, but I bet its probably reflected in my dads PM in some way.

I know that Vaultdweller is my dad. His name is Eric Matthews, and my role pm confirms him as town to me. It also states he does not know my identity.

I wanted to keep this hidden for as long as possible, especially after it appeared Vaultdweller was taking the lurking approach and was unlikely to be killed early. I figured if I were to die, my role pm would still make him an IC (confirmed by mod in pm). If both of us were to survive to endgame it would significantly increase our chances of winning.

I know this might not townclear me in any way, but it should at least inform your decisions going forward.

I wanted to claim it yesterday after all the trap stuff and people killing eachother left and right to avoid someone accidentally killing a town IC, but then the day was suddenly over.

Vecna seems to have claimed it as a reaction to the way night one went. Could see it coming from scum, but this strongly clears Vault for me.

If it's Vecna's scum fakeclaim, it does make sense that he'd have to claim it early cause if he claimed it after Vault died we'd probably be pretty annoyed and suspicious

but for the same reasoning it makes sense coming from Vecna town. His whole role purpose is to clear Vault and stop him from being lynched or killed by us in a game

I'm hoping to actually read a little more thorough during my shift tonight. I'm mentally considering what you're saying.

I honestly wasn't even /that/ sus of Vecna but more how at face value that VD seemed to respond ... but then Vecna came after me. Seemed like a pretty strong reaction to some posts that weren't even really aimed at him.

[Drixx]

I decline Eddie Cane. I haven't had time to read probably 1500 of the posts in this game yet. If you want to be a little less shotgun and little more sniper rifle with a request, I'll try to oblige.

Interested in the scumtell you say you saw with ABR.

[Drixx]

VOTE: Drixx

I think this is where I want to be

I'll just leave this here for posterity.

[Drixx]

Like ... I have no EV right now. My role only does anything if I get popped into a trap WITH someone else.

That does offer a little bit of insight into what's going on with the traps though. I have a role which is basically a VT unless I get pulled into a trap with someone else. I haven't been put in any traps. That seems like fairly decent evidence that the scum are determining who to put into traps.

[Drixx]

if you want people to stop scumreading you, do stuff worth townreading?

Just sitting there indignant is doing nothing to help your case buddy

Yeah we're just past the point where the effort is worth it. Sorry to be so blunt. I could spend all night reading and make all sorts of notes and I'm still on the list of people the scum hope to mislynch. If I'm eating a lynch then I'd rather do it while there's a chance it doesn't end the game in a scum win.

[Drixx]

if you want people to stop scumreading you, do stuff worth townreading?

Just sitting there indignant is doing nothing to help your case buddy

Yeah we're just past the point where the effort is worth it. Sorry to be so blunt. I could spend all night reading and make all sorts of notes and I'm still on the list of people the scum hope to mislynch. If I'm eating a lynch then I'd rather do it while there's a chance it doesn't end the game in a scum win.

you arent the only person im considering voting for. im voting you in the hopes that either you're scum, or the lynch pressure makes you want to contribute and show you're town

you passed on even giving a readslist. What am I supposed to think? Also even if you're town and get mislynched, we can look back at your input in a new townie light

You apparently missed the part where I said use a sniper rifle instead of a shotgun. In other words: ask for a specific person instead of all people.

[Drixx]

BM appears to be trying to drive the game but doesn't appear to actually be applying much rational thought to it. Literally the entirety of BM's "pushes" have been wildly speculative.

[Drixx]

if you want people to stop scumreading you, do stuff worth townreading?

Just sitting there indignant is doing nothing to help your case buddy

Yeah we're just past the point where the effort is worth it. Sorry to be so blunt. I could spend all night reading and make all sorts of notes and I'm still on the list of people the scum hope to mislynch. If I'm eating a lynch then I'd rather do it while there's a chance it doesn't end the game in a scum win.

why must you always play like this Drixx

why

I don't always play like this, but when I do it's because I'm busy and people have silly expectations.

[Drixx]

if you want people to stop scumreading you, do stuff worth townreading?

Just sitting there indignant is doing nothing to help your case buddy

Yeah we're just past the point where the effort is worth it. Sorry to be so blunt. I could spend all night reading and make all sorts of notes and I'm still on the list of people the scum hope to mislynch. If I'm eating a lynch then I'd rather do it while there's a chance it doesn't end the game in a scum win.

why must you always play like this Drixx

why

I don't always play like this, but when I do it's because I'm busy and people have silly expectations.

When we last played, we hard pushed each other for a long time, as both town. You had a very high time commitment to that game. Sure that was like 2 years ago and you may have a different schedule now, but I don't understand how asking for your reads or for you to loosely follow a game you signed up for is a silly expectation. If you want sniper questions instead of shotgun questions, then why not just sure the reads you want to and/or have any substance on? I don't get it.

My time availability changed after the game started sadly. Sometimes that happens. Work stuff.

It's not like I haven't posted things that occurred to me ... it's that loud voices dismissed those things and want to push the idea that I'm doing literally nothing. I never do literally nothing.

[Drixx]

Been a rough couple days. What did I miss?

[Drixx]

VOTE: Drixx

And just like that, I move to the BM theory of ABR is scum. Defends and plays nice with me all game. Then naked votes me. Hrm.

[Drixx]

Someone from my hood asked that we not do anything dramatic in the game until they can post, so I'll just sit over here and wait for them.

did this ever happen?

Yes. It was a let down.

[Drixx]

One day until the day ends.

VOTE: Albert B. Rampage

[Drixx]

So apologies to town for checking out. When I came back from my V/LA during night two and saw what happened and then BM started gaslighting the game, I just wasn't into that. While I was away, this site seems to have been infected by a disease of memes and shitposting, and it's definitely not an improvement.