Newbie 2055: City Lights [game over!]

[FBJim]

hi, if i am posting between 6AM/3PM PST, i am posting instead of working, please don't call my boss

first game of this, actually. anyway, VOTE: team rocket queen, might as well poke some SEs to see how you're "supposed" to respond at this stage

[FBJim]

flow trap, i'd like to hear a bit about why you shouldn't be voted. bad reasons are fine with me, it's page 2 and multiple players haven't posted.

[FBJim]

as in, why you specifically shouldn't be voted for, in general.

[FBJim]

Because I'm a PR

well, fair is fair, i did ask for a bad reason

UNVOTE: team rocket queen - things are getting less random

[FBJim]

FBJim, I think, you are not a totally new player. And it is good that you are not hiding it.

i'm new, but i'm also the type who kind of likes to dive into documentation/wikis.


VOTE: Vasex- D1 pressure seems normal, asking approval and complementing another player on a page 1 vote seems less normal.

[FBJim]

i actually saw "that" game as part of reading newbie games, it was a pretty decent example of things not to do

[FBJim]

i actually saw "that" game as part of reading newbie games, it was a pretty decent example of things not to do

Which one? I think 3 different games just got mentioned

this one, i think? as far as games taking a nosedive to toxic goes - viewtopic.php?f=50&t=84470


fake edit) oh, guess not, just heard the mention of several bans going on and the game being a general disaster

[FBJim]

Empty post per moderator request (ip verification)

[FBJim]

flow trap, i'd like to hear a bit about why you shouldn't be voted. bad reasons are fine with me, it's page 2 and multiple players haven't posted.

What type of answer were you looking for?

any answer at all, at this stage. still getting a feel of what to look for, and i hadn't seen their prior game(s) day 1 yet

[FBJim]

i don't think any conclusions on Vasex will go further until a response, but I did find the early interaction with Ydrasse interesting. it could definitely be a "he'd have *US* killed/he'd have us *KILLED*" thing of not quite knowing which side is which, but i'm not sure about positive friendly game-related interactions like that in a stage where my impression is that town should be skeptical

that and questioning if i was really a new player, which isn't relevant to finding mafia

[FBJim]

player context matters, but i don't see the point of notably questioning it. unlike calling someone strong mafia, there's really no response other than just contradiction.

also not sure about your assumption that at least one of your voters is scum.

[FBJim]

FBJim, are you sure that I'm mafia scum?

no. that's not what a day 1 vote or even wagon implies.

I didn't say that all mafia is definetely there. I believe that one of them can be there. This is talking about nothing. We can talk the whole game about 1/9 chance of having the definite role. So what? Not to hang anybody? This is not about the Math, though it can be useful sometimes here.

Honestly I'd better search for mafia firstly among not much talkative persons, but in the same time I don't like FBJim arguments about me.

your argument read to me like "Well, since I'm town, one of the three people voting for me must be scum" which- even if the first part is true, the second part doesn't follow from that.


i do agree that there are people who haven't posted much yet, but it's the (literal) first day.

[FBJim]

UNVOTE:

[FBJim]

other than "what is flow trap's deal"?

Ydrasse's posting but relative non-activity is more concerning to me than the non-posters right now, if i'm not being too paranoid about the page or so of off-topic stuff on P3 when semi-serious discussion was already occurring among other players

selfishly i'm also curious about HUB's scum-read on me. if we want to know more, probably could put the thumbscrews to both of us.

[FBJim]

what's behind your townread on vasex, by the way? responses bothered me at the moment but i'm finding them relatively easy to read as legitimately upset.

[FBJim]

what's behind your townread on vasex, by the way? responses bothered me at the moment but i'm finding them relatively easy to read as legitimately upset.

also, is there anyone that you townread right now? it looks like you've been casting doubt on players thus far.

Vasex and trq. trq for pushing in productive ways. Vasex because I think his reactions were genuine.

do you think i am intentionally trying to derail things away from mafia, or that i am unable to post believable content if i am scum?

nah. i do think you haven't stuck your head out much so far.

[FBJim]

you get more points if the av is weeb-y

[FBJim]

Dodging questions is seen as quite scummy where I come from.

Last game I had a PR read on something which caused me to dodge questions, please do not proceed with this

not to snitch, but you were also advised after that last game that having more dialogue with players on the early days would have helped

and you're your own dude and don't have to follow advice, but do you have anything we can work with?

[FBJim]

Komrade, how will you hunt the scum if you are not using your vote?

^

don't know if you're the type to respond to this kind of pressure with how loose you've been, but

VOTE: flow trap

chips on the table

[FBJim]

disagree komrade, evaluating your level of experience is part of getting a sense of you as a player and is very townie

yeah. took the first page interactions a little too seriously and jumped to trying to fit everything past that to a narrative. that said, i townread his reactions to that, so it wasn't a total waste. (part of why i backed off)

[FBJim]

for thematic content here is my favorite piece of russian music

[FBJim]

i don't think any conclusions on Vasex will go further until a response, but I did find the early interaction with Ydrasse interesting. it could definitely be a "he'd have *US* killed/he'd have us *KILLED*" thing of not quite knowing which side is which, but i'm not sure about positive friendly game-related interactions like that in a stage where my impression is that town should be skeptical

that and questioning if i was really a new player, which isn't relevant to finding mafia

could you elaborate more on what you meant by this? I don't understand the hed have us killed thing.

oh it's a movie quote from "the conversation" which has a plot hinging on whether someone on tape is saying "he'd have us KILLED" or "he'd have US killed".

[FBJim]

to elaborate i think I was misinterpreting early interactions because it's early and i had little to go off

[FBJim]

in addition to seeing town from his angry replies, one other reason i backed off Vasex was that the argument was getting into logical/technical games which i didn't think would be valuable to anyone. this was partially my fault.

i don't think any of flowtrap's posts joining in were factually/logically wrong but i don't think this is really a game about pointing out logical flaws bc either side can make those especially when pressed. since that's one of the few times flow trap's been less loose id like to hear their thoughts on Vasex more

[FBJim]

nil/soft town on floo. posts so far have been constructive and i go soft town on the tone, but the low activity level isn't making it easier to draw any conclusions.

i guess low activity on day one could be suspicious, but i dont think lurking enough to get publicly prodded is a good scum move since it specifically draws attention to the lurking, defeating the point of it.

[FBJim]

@vasex

day 1 distancing (hostile activity toward scumpartner, either fighting or forming an early wagon) seems well known from wiki/skimming various concluded newbie games.

also think youre reading too much into my non-interaction with a player who has barely posted.


right now, town reads for me are
you (decent)
trq (decent/strong)
kittytacky(decent, though tone based)
fairyprincess69(decent, though tone based)
floo(soft/nil)

the rest I'm unsure about. HUB and Ydrasse don't make much sense to me as a pair because it'd look super bad if i got the hook, flipped green and they both were pressing on me on day 1. Don't really have scum vibes right now on HUB anyway. Flow Trap is a total cypher and explicitly playing anti-town.



incidentally if floo ends up kicked for prod, does your opinion change?

[FBJim]

wow floo posted and ruined my question smh


seconded on awaiting catchup from him

[FBJim]

other than floo trap (who barely counts as a "read" because they're not even hiding blatantly playing sus), strongest wolf vibe. combination of post/content ratio and 136/137 felt performative. only game-related posts were when i mentioned her lack of content/investigation posts too.

[FBJim]

that's regarding ydrasse, since my reply got bumped to a new page

[FBJim]

Yeah Vasex is like fakeclaim mason level town to me I think lol

(totally just looking for context, what does "fakeclaim mason level town" mean)


also i'm sad that i misinterpreted Datisi's post and thought he was going to sub in for ahri, since that would make two players with avs based on mafia/werewolf-based VN games

218

You need to see through flow trap's style. An independent-minded player who makes unpredictable plays sometimes works against the town's interests but also works against the Mafia's interests.

see your point, i just though that mafia like having a high uncertainty level, so playing to just confuse everyone is more in their favor

[FBJim]

happier about floo. especially explanation of flow trap, even if i disagree with it for now.

most important is that floo's views on flow trap and kittytacky are points of view i wouldn't have thought of myself and that's like super important for team reasoning

[FBJim]

going to unvote flow trap for a few reasons. first, i don't actually want them hammered because "hammer bc they're doing blatant wacky shit" would make it a borderline policy elim, and also because at this point they're doing their own thing and idk if even e-1 would actually pressure them into changing.


i mentioned ydrasse being my strongest wolf read earlier. apart from post/content level, the aggressive response to me, i don't like. going aggressive as town makes sense if you're just mad about being scumread as town, or if you want to establish dominance to lead town discussions but she did that and then went back to not really posting.

UNVOTE: flow trap
VOTE: ydrasse

[FBJim]

@flow trap Idk why I used quotation marks other than it felt right prose-wise.

for weeby context, other than wiki and reading past newbie games, my experience is basically from a werewolf-based visual novel where it was said that no-eliminate D1 was the best move, which i don't think anyone thinks here. so the whole concept of RVS was like "what are players even supposed to do here " for a bit

[FBJim]

what's behind your townread on vasex, by the way? responses bothered me at the moment but i'm finding them relatively easy to read as legitimately upset.

yuo read vasex as upset? that's a strange takeaway. their response was a bit OMGUSSY but not overly emotional in my estimation. why can't this be upset scum, anyway?

if not emotional, it felt like it fit a town player getting scum-read. hard to answer the second question because it really is mostly tone read, not just that confrontation but general tone since then. if he got accurately scumread that early i think he'd change up his activity level or tone and i haven't seen either of that.

[FBJim]

noting that jim now townreads vasex on 140 despite saying "their responses bothered me" on 133. i find 133 suspicious in its own right, and the 180° is pretty glaring. gut theory is jim is backing down on this vasex push only because HUB townreads vasex. i think mafia are likely to defer to the town leaders.

i mishandled the confrontation with Vasex to begin with by taking it to weird rhetorical/logical game stuff that wasn't helpful in retrospect.

mentioned earlier that i didn't really get the rhythm of RVS so there was a bit of "god i gotta scumread *someone * going on"

tldr i decided i had overreacted /lost confidence in the initial read of buddy times w/ another poster on page 1 votes in the first place

[FBJim]

i think he was wrong there. but this isn't really a logical fallacies game because anyone can make mistakes. and i think "omg im getting wagonned, someone involved must be scum" isn't that unreasonable, even if it's not necessarily logically sound


also outside the game i react poorly to "ah ah logical fallacy" debating styles which probably bled through there.

[FBJim]

also outside the game i react poorly to "ah ah logical fallacy" debating styles which probably bled through there.

Ah ah, FBJim poisoning the well against accusations of logical fallacies! Gottem!

having dealt with the types of people who argue that way irl i literally felt kind of dirty doing the whole "well actually logically speaking" thing

[FBJim]

it felt more intense and heated at the time especially as one of the involved parties

[FBJim]

Vasex was just like Idk how to even express this, "wrong in the right way?" like not the kind of mistakes someone with perfect knowledge of player alignments would make.

if it's fake it seemed like a hard ass thing to fake

[FBJim]

up I think but like flow trap said i think i may be naturally inclined to responding positively to that that posting style which is a personal liability i want to keep in mind

trying to put that aside it's genuine attempts to engage and nothing suspicious for me even when deliberately trying to be skeptical

[FBJim]

the strongest townread i have on flow trap is entirely personal but it's based on him giving me a piece of advice that struck me as a) true and b) the kind of thing you wouldn't want to give out as scum

specifically telling me that their impression of me was that i was biased towards "serious" posting styles which is true - i think as scum the last thing you'd want to give out is that kind of information because it makes much more sense to keep that kind of thing to yourself - "how to manipulate a townie" is maybe one of the most valuable reads scumplayers can have

of course this is also somewhat self-serving on their part bc they hardly have a serious posting style, and/or it could be trying to seed doubt in my mind about players like kitty/HUB, but it just makes much more sense as a townpost

[FBJim]

Vasex was just like Idk how to even express this, "wrong in the right way?" like not the kind of mistakes someone with perfect knowledge of player alignments would make.

if it's fake it seemed like a hard ass thing to fake

I miss some things in your conversation. Could you please clarify you thoughts here. Especially what means the right way here?

hard to articulate but

scum are the players with perfect knowledge of player alignments unlike townies and since town has imperfect knowledge logical mistakes are understandable

reason i backed off my push on you was cuz even though i thought you were wrong, you were wrong in a way that feels like townie thought process of not knowing who the wolves are

[FBJim]

thing is i had already unvoted him. and i didn't really have any sort of strong read on him at the time because of how much of a cypher his post style makes him. like blatantly suspicious but not even hiding it even under wagon pressure which i really dont know how to read without getting into WIFOM loops in my head

its also the type of info where it doesn't look suspicious if he *doesn't* share it, like conspicuous absence

get the point though. why is this game worse than therapy when it comes to uncomfortable self-introspection about biases and my capability to be manipulated smh

[FBJim]

I am in anime boy bloc. Lone wolf. SK softclaim


@floo partially yes, but mostly because i have actually not played a game before and the concept of RVS was kind of weird since most of the (ok fictional) stuff I read involved either night start or no-hang D1

[FBJim]

<- the format this game was from btw was basically open follow-the-cop with the balancing being no-flip and coroner (faction only) meaning there was a better chance of wolves usurping the cop role

i was actually kind of surprised to find that no-flip-plus-coroner was like an extremely unpopular setup (I think the wiki calls it borderline bastard!)

[FBJim]

is this an end-day push @vasex @hub

i don't agree with wagoning if it is. flow trap is practically the default anti-town/disruptive hang if it gets close to deadline anyway, and it's not halftime yet. arguing with FT is just going to make reading/solving more difficult.

[FBJim]

ty ydrasse

i am lonely in anime boy bloc but i think the hub/vasex putting wagon pressure on other players was the right idea before the disruption. just not today because i got zero (0) hours of sleep last night and my iq has dropped about 25%

[FBJim]

i mentioned ydrasse being my strongest wolf read earlier. apart from post/content level, the aggressive response to me, i don't like. going aggressive as town makes sense if you're just mad about being scumread as town, or if you want to establish dominance to lead town discussions but she did that and then went back to not really posting.

UNVOTE: flow trap
VOTE: ydrasse

was she really aggressive, though? seemed like she just wanted to explore your thought process a little bit.

second half of this is what stuck out to me, almost interpreting an SR as an insult

do you think i am intentionally trying to derail things away from mafia, or that i am unable to post believable content if i am scum?

activity level was backed up by another player as NAI via meta and i'll defer to people who've played with her before

UNVOTE: ydrasse
VOTE: KittyTacky
gut - flow trap is the obvious SR but feels like a default hang that could be done at any time.

last post is also moving it from gut "suspect the least scrutinized player" to suspicious

I feel if both flow trap and floo are mafia then floo might be sussing me because I pushed on their buddy.

However:
A) I don't want to "no u" vote.
B) I feel in forum mafia where there is less immediate emotion I doubt scums are impulsive enough to do that.

Thus floo is a null-leaning-slightly-scummy read for me. They're difficult to read but not as much as flow trap. Also Ydrasse is indeed quite aggressive.

I'm somewhat sussing flow myself. Just because flow made a "joke" and then I missed it... doesn't clear us as scumbuddies. I don't know why and can't really explain why but it seems very

odd

to me that flow would say something major like that with no clear evidence.

And as HUB said, flow seemed like they were white-knighting floo. Which is also quite sus.

I'm sorry if I'm wrong, this should be E-1. This is my first forum mafia game too that I didn't flak out of due to IRL reasons. Ughhhh.

VOTE: flow trap

don't like E-1ing someone with this much equivocation. feels like a bad mix of caution and soft aggression. e-1 is an aggressive action especially with 5 days to deadline. making an aggressive action while publicly equivocating (saying you suspect someone else but don't want to OMGUS vote/E-1ing someone you're "somewhat sussing", "i'm sorry if i'm wrong/this is my first game ugh"/"it seems very

odd

" ) - just looks like wanting the move to seem less aggressive than it actually is

[FBJim]

@trq - before hammer decision can you expand on your hmmmm toward KT


want that out there before end of day

[FBJim]

e-1 is aggressive and i didn't like the equivocation to it. *especially* because flow trap is a likely elim if placed at e-1 because *gestures at like the last 10 pages*

[FBJim]

e-1 is aggressive and i didn't like the equivocation to it. *especially* because flow trap is a likely elim if placed at e-1 because *gestures at like the last 10 pages*

yeah but also 'force claim to not have to solve flow trap slot another way' seems fine to me

yeah. i just don't see that in that specific e-1 post though

FT refusal to claim (other than a bizarre "unvote or i claim" which ???) and you've stated intent to hammer. not to put you on the spot but you're the best hope for a KT counter so i'll leave the trigger decision to you.

[FBJim]

pretty much every slot has had some sort of negative/shading interaction with flow trap, i really don't think they're partnered with anyone, and their playing almost identically to their town meta from last game

FT is throwing up so much dust that i don't even know if deducing partnerships or lack thereof from their posting is possible. well i'm pretty sure HUB isn't their partner at least lmao

i am not happy right now bc i halfway am between not wanting to end early with a bait elim that my gut tells me flips green, and idk if i'm galaxy-braining myself into ignoring FT's actions because of that

i still dont like the e-1 post by KT which is my most justified read for a countervote/wagon personally. if you have the appetite to join in or any suggestions im open


@flow trap idk if this is just you or if it's part of some grand strategy of trying to make your meta unreadable but

Play to win -

this particular game, not some future one

, and keep it fun!

in other words if this is some attempt to obscure your meta and make yourself hard to read or just some grand gambit, please don't freaking do that!!!!

[FBJim]

not good enough. nothing in 495 demonstrates intent to force a claim. that post is e-1 with the stated rationale of "somewhat sussing flow trap" but "don't know why and can't really explain why, but it seems very odd"-

though maybe kittytacky e-1 is fine if kittytacky is just thinking force claim tos style, hammer or move on

Yup this is it. Maybe it's a mindset difference but where I come from... Not claiming when pushed by half the town is extremely sus.

but now it's "extremely sus". this is not to mention that you were hesitant to E-2 them earlier. this is also not to mention that their refusal to claim when pushed by half the town (not including your push of their PR earlier) happened *after* your vote

[FBJim]

it is extremely suspicious. what i'm saying is that it can't possibly be the rationale for KT's vote.

[FBJim]

please get on anime boy wagon. we have the guy from promare here.

[FBJim]

I respect you using animeboy status for your wagon tho

ty ty

the handwringing is actually why i react so badly to that post. like i said earlier e-1 is aggressive which is fine. what i don't like is the mixture of that and the equivocal language in that post.

like, the first half of 495 even hints that it was a choice between floo and flow trap and he didn't want to OMGUS floo.

if you think i'm overreacting let me know. this is the biggest reason i do not want a FT hammer as it stands (i have another reason, but it is an extremely stupid, gut-based one).

[FBJim]

early shift tomorrow so off to bed. ty for the response, i'll sleep on it a bit

[FBJim]

this may be total galaxy brain but the demand of "retract your vote and i'll reveal" is so bizarre and senseless (what's to stop you from just re-voting again?) that i don't even know if it qualifies as scummy


formal request to replace "WIFOM" with "galaxy brain"

[FBJim]

not good enough. nothing in 495 demonstrates intent to force a claim. that post is e-1 with the stated rationale of "somewhat sussing flow trap" but "don't know why and can't really explain why, but it seems very odd"-

though maybe kittytacky e-1 is fine if kittytacky is just thinking force claim tos style, hammer or move on

Yup this is it. Maybe it's a mindset difference but where I come from... Not claiming when pushed by half the town is extremely sus.

but now it's "extremely sus". this is not to mention that you were hesitant to E-2 them earlier. this is also not to mention that their refusal to claim when pushed by half the town (not including your push of their PR earlier) happened *after* your vote

I said I tried to force him to claim before my E-1 so your point is moot.

That wasn't half the town earlier, that was mainly just you.

[FBJim]

vasex seems like a pseudowagon really, i dont see much serious argument lately about him being scum, flow trap was on the block when their vote went down on him, and TRQ was on intent-to-hammer to FT for a while.

i am still on KT unless the alternative will be no-hang. i do want to hear FP because along with me, she was one of the players who explicitly spoke against hammer

reiterating that KT's e-1 vote post (not the e-1 vote itself, the post surrounding it) is my most serious read of the game so far. i find that one post much more suspicious than flow trap's *gestures vaguely*. the big reason posts like that and the following "sorry i didn't know being wishy-washy was scummy" post stuck out - i think mafia are far more concerned with how their actions look to other players than town.

that combined with the rationale inconsistency and the explanation for the vote not making much sense to me. any of those things in isolation, sure. i dont like those things combined.

[FBJim]

No I meant you refusing to claim later after the fact. Now that's sus.

Becuase it was a joke

A bad one. Doing all this, waiting this long, only to claim VT? Hmmmmmmmm...

Also what TRQ said. An informed town is much, much better than an uninformed town.

vasex seems like a pseudowagon really, i dont see much serious argument lately about him being scum, flow trap was on the block when their vote went down on him, and TRQ was on intent-to-hammer to FT for a while.

i am still on KT unless the alternative will be no-hang. i do want to hear FP because along with me, she was one of the players who explicitly spoke against hammer

reiterating that KT's e-1 vote post (not the e-1 vote itself, the post surrounding it) is my most serious read of the game so far. i find that one post much more suspicious than flow trap's *gestures vaguely*. the big reason posts like that and the following "sorry i didn't know being wishy-washy was scummy" post stuck out - i think mafia are far more concerned with how their actions look to other players than town.

that combined with the rationale inconsistency and the explanation for the vote not making much sense to me. any of those things in isolation, sure. i dont like those things combined.

Now I'm just curious. Why would townies not care what town thinks of them?

mafia cares much more about avoiding being scumread than town cares about being incorrectly scumread. even a day 1 miselim gives town some info to take to day 2, while there's zero upside for mafia if they get elimmed day 1. hence me not liking your vote post for being almost apologetic. especially because e-1 is an aggressive action.

[FBJim]

[FBJim]

hate to join the v/la club but add me to the "gotta reread and get my head back into the game" pile. more a semi-prodge but it'll be tomorrow at the latest

[FBJim]

well TRQ/BM definitely isn't S/S which is nice


im going to loosely agree w/ BM on one point - the flow trap wagon bothered me a lot because a) there was little reason to do it because meta suggested it was flow trap's style, and b) it felt like a borderline policy elim which is not good. like yes getting the game state readable is better but there was a much easier way to do it, which was to not constantly respond and react to FT's posts which is kind of what HUB did - constantly arguing with FT and then pushing a borderline policy elim based on "ft just argues and obfuscates all the time" is a big time problem

i'm going through ISO and its honestly difficult to form a case about floo that isnt entirely based on activity level. that's not a *bad* reason but he's not a compelling elim option yet.

i will hold on E-1 for KT because i don't want a hammer threat with an "important" player still in v/la.

if HUB-KT is the likely team (for me) its because they have the most scummy *actions* right now. KT's weird E-1 has already been mentioned as has HUB's hard miselim push. the problem is that it puts both scum on the miselim wagon, and puts *both* of them in a really visible position in the miselim. KT as the e-1 and HUB as the one pushing it the hardest. this is why i want to wait for HUB to return - at the risk of overthinking it, i dont think *both* mafia would stick their necks out for a D1 miselim which is a likely result anyway.

[FBJim]

i don't understand the idea that KT would be a policy hang. this is maybe just a terminology disagreement but as far as the votes yesterday go, KT was far more suspicious than HUB in my view. not that HUB isn't suspicious but day 1 forcing a late VT claim isn't *explicitly* anti-town even if it was a miselim.

there still are things i don't like about HUB's activity -- forcing a wagon on a player playing to his meta (ok, one game i could find, but even that was at least showing they weren't acting "weird" by their standards), and the fact that it was at least partially responsible for the behavior that got FT policy hanged (there's no reason you *had* to respond to everything FT said).

it's like, yes, i can see how the behavior FT got hanged for was "suspicious" but i don't like how this behavior was egged on by people. like a scum entrapment thing. especially because like, even *i* could tell that's how FT would likely respond to pressure, and if i could tell, there's a very good chance other people could tell.

VOTE: KittyTacky


//



i want to go to the final count

• flow trap [5]:
  Ydrasse
  , Happy Unbirthday Boon, Vasex,
  KittyTacky
  , team rocket queen [HAMMER]
  
• Vasex [1]: floo
  
• KittyTacky [1]: FBJim
  
  
• Not voting [2]: fairyprincess69 (Battle Mage),
  flow trap

reads -
BM - 1/3 town. this is actually more based on FP's slot than anything else (especially them pushing back when i was close to tunneling ydrasse, who's obviously confirmed town) though i appreciate taking over the game with people VLA. also if D1 miselim was because of policy/votebait, i wouldn't stay on No Vote if i was scum - just seems like an inherently "notable" thing to do that has no real upside (admittedly this could be cuz of them dropping out in the first place).

nothing is a done deal but KT seems like a likely d2 hang and i already voted - assuming him for a sec (and leaving aside Battle Mage which I mentioned above) leaves one of

HUB
Vasex
TRQ
floo
me



HUB: (1/2 scum) the big logorrhea mess which led to FT's mishang was HUB/KT's doing - HUB for the actual hard push posting, and KT for the e-1. KT's vote was more *inherently* suspicious as i suspected earlier but i still consider HUB among the "worst" there- when someone just mass posts, i can absolutely see a tactic of constantly prodding them, pushing each response and then calling for a rope because all the posts are making the gamestate too confusing.


Vasex: (1/3 scum) calling for activity level/lurking ropes when you've got one of the highest activity levels is a bit self-serving though i actually kind of like it. feels more like "i'm town and townies should be acting like me" than anything calculated.

that said, calling for activity level ropes when you've got one of the highest activity levels might just be simple self-serving CYA, *especially* past day 1. their FT vote also didn't stick out, and i mean this in a *bad* way. one of the biggest problems i have with the KT-HUB pairing is that it would put both of them in a semi-exposed position for a fairly elim-bait wagon which seemed risky. one player as the e-1 vote and one as a sheep vote makes a lot more sense than one player as the e-1 and one as the hard pusher. out of all the FT votes theirs was by far the most sheep-y.

TRQ: (1/2 town) holding for prod. i think their hammer was at worst NAI, though, and *hesitating* on the hammer (and not in a way that struck me as fake) made me feel better. also find it hard to match them up with another scum candidate in a way that makes sense to me.

floo: (1/3 town): activity level/lurking, eh. like the FT vote, hanging based on that feels like a fallback option when we don't have better ideas. also agree that if they are town, they'd be the most likely counterwagon candidate.

me: (???): well, if it were me, for miselim-ing a e-1 bait player, i think two scum on the wagon makes more sense than one-on one-off, since the elim-bait status makes justifying any vote theoretically easier. but hey.

it's a little strange because in isolation i consider HUB a better candidate but Vasex/KT as a more likely pairing. this is entirely based on my probably bad intuition of likely voting behaviors and i absolutely need to review the thread/interactions more.

[FBJim]

think of a needle where 0 is nil and +/- 1 is confirmed either way. felt more right than rating out of 10 points or w/e

[FBJim]

like i said it's a little weird because i consider TRQ less town than you in isolation but i think you/KT is a better pairing. the big reason being that with FT both as a likely option with no real counterwagon forming, *and* with FT claiming VT, i don't see two scum players putting themselves on the line to force the wagon through *that* hard.

[FBJim]

also a confession: if i am posting less now it is because Persona 5 Strikers released

[FBJim]

that's e-1, with no claim and an active prod i want a hammer hold here.

[FBJim]

guess it's fine, HUB wants more time, floo wanted to question more people, and TRQ is prodded. up to them.


i suppose scum-KT could selfhammer as a discussion shutdown but i don't think that's a good idea. i'm *still* going to request a hold because that's two players (HUB and floo) who i gather want more information.

[FBJim]

me: (???): well, if it were me, for miselim-ing a e-1 bait player, i think two scum on the wagon makes more sense than one-on one-off, since the elim-bait status makes justifying any vote theoretically easier. but hey.

Like, Jim arguing a both-on world is actually a polar opposite of my feels. I feel like flow trap was so scummy in how they handled the response to pressure that scum could have been very content to just let flow trap die to an all town wagon. So I very much felt like I've felt towniness from Jim when interacting with them in real time, but today Jim is basically arguing an opposite world as the one I'm imagining.

Basically I would like some time to sort this out in my mind, because if Jim is town then arguing different worlds could be problematic in a world where we're both town.

well, "more sense", not the only thing that makes sense. intuition isn't perfect.

[FBJim]

the thing about FP (battle mage's slot), and i may be weighing this too heavily is that FP argued against me pushing against what i thought was suspicious posting from Ydrasse who has flipped town. i mean sure that's possibly towncred gaining and/or pocketing but it wasn't as if there was a serious wagon on ydrasse other than me, but i don't know about arguing against two town miselims as scum (FP was also against the FT wagon)

[FBJim]

the other interesting thing: FP argued that i let Vasex off the hook too easily early on day 1. i seriously doubt there's a Vasex/BM world - if town backs down in an argument against scum partner there's no way you try to get them to reconsider

[FBJim]

just going through some cases

assuming KT flips red

KT+Vasex - maybe. i dont know how much to weigh that neither are experienced. both FT votes smelled a bit - KT's has been stated forever, Vasex is more debatable. i think it's definitely possible for both to be on the wagon, especially vasex would have a relatively easy time justifying his vote.
KT+HUB - both were very visible in the miselim wagon which i consider a point againt - that said, maybe KT's post was a noobscum attempt to pass the vote off as legitimate. that's really my most serious problem here - i still think it's not likely (not impossible) for both scum partners to be in relatively exposed positions in the vote. HUB's defense of its vote isn't really helping me out here - i actually prefer Vasex's bloodthirstiness here and frankly given the eagerness for blood HUB was showing i'd expect a "it was the scummiest player and i pushed the elim, eff off" explanation to any pressure about the vote. might be projecting but there's a personality shift i don't like. i'd call this my most viable team
KT+Battle Mage - i don't think this slot is scum for the reasons in 1054/1055. independent of that both were relatively quiet but FP's posts came off as genuine attempts to get me to engage with my thinking, and not in a FUD second-guess way.
KT+trq - mmmmmmmaybe? hammer vote i consider NAI but i don't want to discount that the wagon was unlikely to go through without that vote since fp and i were opposed. this is one i'd have to look over older interactions to draw any reliable conclusions
KT+floo - same as above re: more research necessary

[FBJim]

UNVOTE: KittyTacky

i do not want a hammer at this stage. HUB wants time to sort stuff out tomorrow and i'm inclined to hear it out

[FBJim]

for the record absolutely none of KT's posts in the last few pages have changed my mind about wanting them to be eliminated. just not yet.

[FBJim]

if trq's explanation is that it's busy until tomorrow i want to test it out. and i think this wagon goes through regardless. it's more for my sake than anything, it's a loose end I don't want to leave hanging

[FBJim]

KT's e-1 posts are a bunch of FUD is what i don't like. just feels like tossing out names and seeing what sticks. and none of the defenses i've seen of that vote actually hit my point, which is that it was an aggressive move on a miselim wagon *that was worded to try to make it seem non-aggressive*


and really i consider the post quoted in 629 and 631 a borderline slip.

[FBJim]

then again, i'm the only one voting kitty right?

i'm back on in a bit. didn't want the hammer before HUB got the extra day it wanted for reads/ISO analysis.