Open 857 | Frienemies | Postgame

[Something_Smart]

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[Something_Smart]

people who try to make andante happy are usually mafia

Andante specifically, or just people in general?

[Something_Smart]

I think she's particularly susceptible to it.

And most people are aware of this? But they're not aware of the fact that most people are aware of it?

Does it work on you too?

I wouldn't expect so, if anything I'm too inclined to townread people who are mean to me.

[Something_Smart]

Well your reasoning kinda depends on both of those being true. If it's common knowledge that Andante is susceptible to pocketing, then people would expect to be called out for it by others (even if not by Andante herself).

[Something_Smart]

lol this is a weird argument/conversation, like, what's the end goal here? we sort my alignment? I could've just told you, I'm town. ok easy. moving on!!!
Lets find some mafia!

It's to sort implosion. I feel like that was fairly clear?

[Something_Smart]

Neither, I'm just trying to understand your reasoning to see if I agree with it.

[Something_Smart]

Leaning town on this

Because of the concept (an RVS vote being retroactively made serious) or the phrasing?

[Something_Smart]

i love going from obvtown to obvscum in the span of a paragraph

Just Andante things

[Something_Smart]

main thing that annoys me is that baltar is pushing me for things i'm pretty sure he knows is false.

Does that make him necessarily scum if it's true? Why would he do that as town?

[Something_Smart]

s_s!! how townie am i right now?

You're pretty null I think? I don't feel like you've done anything out of your scumrange yet

[Something_Smart]

Asking that's probably +town, but only slightly, because if you're scum you'd know I'd say that.

[Something_Smart]

really? i'd expect you to call it +scum for asking you about your read of me when i know you can't read me for shit. why +town?

Because if I said anything you did was scum leaning, that could draw attention onto you, and I'd never have mentioned it otherwise; whereas if I said anything you did was town leaning, everyone would ignore it, because of course they would.

[Something_Smart]

None of that was in my mind when I said it, of course. But it felt right and I think this is why.

[Something_Smart]

Why is that a bad thing?

Well, negative attention, specifically.

[Something_Smart]

I never understand how people read S_S because he feels like he does nothing as both alignments fairly consistently to me

I'm always happy to look into things addressed to me, if you feel like hearing my thoughts on any particular thing would help sort me. Just bear in mind that the vaguer the question the vaguer the answer.

[Something_Smart]

On the contrary, I think he's appearing to rolefish while saying scum don't want to appear to rolefish.

[Something_Smart]

it should be self evident to him that he wants to be townread when he's mafia.

Yeah, and? His whole argument is that he doesn't expect to be townread for doing the thing, so he wouldn't do it as mafia. I don't see the issue.

[Something_Smart]

Yeah, smaller pool probably means it's not as good here. Oh well, nothing ventured/gained.

Speak for yourself, I gain lots without venturing anything.

[Something_Smart]

Why's it stupid?

[Something_Smart]

Because it is not easy to read you. You play a fairly selfish game in that sense where it is on other players to drag thoughts and motivations out of you instead of you just being transparent and using the one concrete tool we have (our vote) to take positions.

In my experience, that doesn't make it easier for people to read me. It just makes it easier for people to

think

they've read me. Especially since if I were to vote more liberally, it would be more of a reflection of random noise/sheeping than of how I actually feel.

[Something_Smart]

You not voting at all would imply you don't feel a thing if you're following that process through.

It means there's nobody low enough in my readlist to be comfortable saying I want to end the day and kill them. (And I don't think "pressure voting" produces positive results most of the time.)

I think you choose not to vote D1 because it is easier and I'm sure it helps obfuscate when you roll scum. I think it's lazy, but you can certainly play however you choose. Who am I to tell you different.

It's easier? Surely it's less strain on my fingers to type out a vote than it is to type all this. (And I don't know if you're directly claiming I deliberately tank my towngame to help my scumgame, but I definitely don't; I play to win each game.)

[Something_Smart]

On more interesting topics, do you think andante has been making good faith arguments this game?

From an ISO skim, her arguments look like they're probably in good faith to me. Was there a particular argument you feel like she can't/probably doesn't actually believe?

[Something_Smart]

@ss - this is very clearly not anywhere close to what I was saying, and I don't think if you're town you misread that badly. I think andante was skimming what I was saying to look for a point of defense, which is a fundamental misreading of the game.

She also claimed I asking her to case hutmeil when I asked a fairly straightforward question of if she had played with him before. Again, this is a case of bad faith arguing a defense that wasn't at all what was being said in the thread.

Those are just two off the top of my head.

Why is her reading ability correlated with her alignment? Or you think scum-Andante is like "I'm going to completely make shit up about Baltar, nobody will notice and I'll get to slightly better support a push that nobody will care about anyway!"

To me, bad faith implies that it wasn't just a mistake; in my experience Andante doesn't always read carefully and jumps to conclusions

a lot

so these kinds of mistakes are entirely to be expected.

[Something_Smart]

Sorry. I have no energy for playing games lately and it’s kind of left me here like well I joined so I have to play but I don’t spend a lot of time thinking about this.

Annoying to spoon feed me to get interaction etc but my heart really isn’t in it atm.

If you want something to look at, I would like a second opinion on the interaction starting here. Basically, Ari complains that I'm hard to read, and then I make several attempts to start a dialogue with her by interjecting in her conversation with Datisi (390 and 402), and she completely ignores me. It gave me the impression that she was just grandstanding and didn't really care about reading me.

[Something_Smart]

Do you think you're easy to read?

No.

Do you have an example of someone who successfully reads you correctly across multiple games?

Actually, I'm having a lot of trouble coming up with one. Koba maybe?

My scumgame tends to be inconsistent enough that I'm usually able to avoid letting any one person consistently catch me as scum.

[Something_Smart]

But that doesn't change the fact that you didn't seem to want to make an effort or even interact with me at all.

[Something_Smart]

Weird that you didn't think it was productive to respond to me when I was clearly trying to engage you but you thought 398, 399, and 401 were productive.

[Something_Smart]

so what do you actually want to talk to me about?

Nothing. I want to talk to Vulture about you.

[Something_Smart]

ok because you're complaining that I'm not engaging with you and I'm here to answer anything you want to ask me and you um don't seem to actually want to converse.

I mean, you didn't want to talk about my conversation points when they were relevant. What makes me think you'd want to talk about them now?

[Something_Smart]

because I'm literally asking you what you want to talk about?

Well, okay, let's talk about 394 then. I feel like I have a decent sense, as scum, of what things I shouldn't do because they'll attract primarily negative attention. And that sense is absent as town-- it almost never enters the equation. Probably because I have some amount of faith in the scumhunting skill of the people I'm playing with, that I assume that if I keep saying genuine things as town people will more often than not eventually read me town for it.

I can only speak for myself, but I would imagine that at least some other people are like this? It's hard to imagine not having that sense as scum, I guess I can imagine also having it as town but I'm sure many people don't.

So I think that it's a reasonable defense, or at least, the claim deserves to be looked at specifically rather than just dismissed in the abstract.

[Something_Smart]

Ari, and SS, what are yall's thoughts on VP's case on me?

It's an average case, which is to say, entirely uncompelling.

[Something_Smart]

what is the reason that *this* is something you chose to talk about, (i'm assuming) of all things?

I tried to talk to Ari about it before, and she ignored me, and then I complained that she ignored me, and she said she ignored me on purpose because she didn't want to talk about it, and then she asked me what I wanted to talk about.

[Something_Smart]

do you have opinions on what those posts mean with regard to vp baltar's alignment, or are you just trying to play devil's advocate?

I think it's a fairly solid argument, which is +town for him.

[Something_Smart]

I don't recall it.

[Something_Smart]

This is a semi-outed alt if not entirely.

Can you just entirely out it and spare us the homework, then?

[Something_Smart]

It’s Ydra. Every alt is Ydra you know this.

Oh hi. Usually you're more obvious

[Something_Smart]

i will be kind of sad if fireisredsir is red

they are not.

[Something_Smart]

That is a really worrying readlist.

[Something_Smart]

Why is it less inspired than George's? I feel like trying to get a wagon going is a pretty reasonable aim.

[Something_Smart]

i hate Something_Smart on page 10 i don't really get the point of the argument i don't see any solving from him just arguing

Get used to it lol

[Something_Smart]

at this point, people like me, with 200+ posts are not going to be a null read.

why is that? what if the towny and scummy things you've done roughly cancel out?

[Something_Smart]

s_s, do you have any thoughts(tm) on hutmel, fire, and penguin?

Not really interested in wagoning fire. I don't have much of a read on either of the other two, I don't think I've ever read PP confidently on D1.

[Something_Smart]

Sorry for being a lurksack

I'm not opposed to either of these wagons but I don't feel a particular draw to either one. I guess I should just VOTE: hutmeil to tie it up.

[Something_Smart]

I mean, uh... I'm super committed to the hutmeil wagon. We should definitely push them up and execute them without a claim.

[Something_Smart]

since when is that something that you even remotely care about?

having competing wagons? always? it's literally the best way to get info on D1

[Something_Smart]

this is funny because in the world where hut/peng are t/t and SS is scum then SS is trying to vote early so he doesn't get stuck hammering a townie when inevitably everyone votes and he's still there twiddling his thumbs on a fence because scum SS is deathly allergic of hammering townies.

In that situation I wouldn't have to vote at all. I know because I've been in it quite a bit. I can just continue to stall and someone else will eventually hammer.

[Something_Smart]

except that would make you look bad

Whereas this is making me look just fantastic, eh?

[Something_Smart]

This is, admittedly, a more recent mindset than I was thinking. But your argument is just terrible-- staying off the main wagons is never going to make me look bad unless one flips scum. Hell, I could probably vote a vanity as scum and be fine.

[Something_Smart]

What you expect to happen and what does happen is often not the same thing.

Sure, but I know that staying off the wagons wouldn't make me look bad because I've done it a million times.

[Something_Smart]

All right, bet.

UNVOTE:

Get the wagons to 6-6, and I'll make the decision.

[Something_Smart]

And like, insomuch as that discomfort thing is at all accurate (it is accurate, but not related to my motivation), it would point toward me being town, because I'd be a lot less comfortable if I actually don't know the answer and my team is counting on me to make the best choice, then if I did know and had to pick the best tactical decision.

[Something_Smart]

i do not remember a single time when you praised vca or did it?

Now that Invictus is over I can respond to this. I guess it's a much newer mindset than I thought, but I emphasized competing wagons quite a bit on D1 there. The worst D1 is when there's a single uncontested wagon on a low-activity player and it flips town.

[Something_Smart]

Nah, it totally makes sense, I've been there.

[Something_Smart]

the people who have been in invictus for longer than i have, does that game impact your read on fire here?

I have fire as solidly town here, I didn't really pay much attention to them in Invictus so it doesn't really move the needle for me.

[Something_Smart]

No, I like this. Let's try it.

VOTE: Mala

[Something_Smart]

What a zero-dimensional way to look at scumplay

[Something_Smart]

that was a joke but the fact that gamma felt liberated enough to do that makes me feel town vibes

Idk, in RC's uPick Gamma spammed for pages to make it the longest D1 ever. I think if she felt liberated enough to do that as scum she can make a single Twilight joke.

[Something_Smart]

-

I literally didn't say the thing you said you were afraid of people saying

[Something_Smart]

Is this to Andante?

Yes. If I don't indicate who a post is aimed at, it's almost always a response to the previous post.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Mala

[Something_Smart]

Isn't it just an Enchant thing?

[Something_Smart]

who would you like to yeet SS?

An...dante?

[Something_Smart]

SS why andante?

Both NK's have pushed her and I do not think scum figured out Gamma was mason

[Something_Smart]

s_s, do you have any other thoughts on this game

I have a bunch of vague things swirling around, I definitely do not feel like spilling them all out as that wouldn't be helpful. Is there something specific you want my thoughts on?

[Something_Smart]

okay, give me 2-3 strongest townreads? or anyone else you suspect besides andante?

Uh, I guess my townpool for the time being is {STD, Ari, implosion}? I townread fire early but they've kinda fallen off.

Take these with a grain of salt though, given the nature of the setup I think it's to our advantage to have a relatively narrow focus so I'm not hugely looking at the people who aren't in the spotlight.

[Something_Smart]

is the nka the only reason why you suspect andante?

Well, more than just NKA, two people had reasons to suspect her that are now confirmed to be in good faith.

But yes I don't pretend to have any clue how to read Andante directly.

[Something_Smart]

is there anyone that you suspect based on your own reads and reasoning?

No.

[Something_Smart]

C'mon, you should know better than that.

[Something_Smart]

It's not like scum have mystical divining abilities, they have the same information we do. What in Gamma's ISO indicates that he's a mason?

[Something_Smart]

it is much easier for scum to find masons bc for a vt, weird associatives could either be mason-indicative or scum-indicative.

If that's how they found Gamma, then they found two masons at the same time and chose to kill Gamma first, so his reads still would factor in.

Obviously don't say if you see any, but I don't see any interactions that read as particularly mason-y to me.

[Something_Smart]

the question in 2001 wasn't rhetorical, btw

now that we have a mason flip I am not really interested in talking about wagons, beyond the obvious observation that being on the PP wagon is +town.

[Something_Smart]

Ari bullied me into untying the wagons and then the hutmeil wagon didn't seriously threaten the PP one. The only person who voted when the wagons were somewhat close was STD, whom I townread, and that is part of the reason why.

[Something_Smart]

i'm rereading the game around that part and i think vp baltar is malding in the dead thread that we're not voting andante

No time like the present.

VOTE: Andante

[Something_Smart]

???

Yeah, I too am interested to hear where she goes with that.

[Something_Smart]

I am noting fire's recent actions as a potential FOS buddy, vote townie if they or Andante flip scum.

[Something_Smart]

Hell if I know.

[Something_Smart]

If I were scum I could have lied though

[Something_Smart]

you're free to explain to me why you're not scum this game if you want, though?

ask me again in a few game days

what do you think of enchant?

@s_s

mild town I guess? emotionality is usually a pretty decent town indicator for them, I have seen them fake it but it's pretty wooden and awkward.

[Something_Smart]

SS's push on me is like so weak and literally just like "heyy yall could join this" and he's not actually trying to push/case me, idk. would love more voices...

...do you want me to post "Both of the NK'd players scumread Andante" 50 times? or like what more are you looking for? I stated my case, I made my vote, there's nothing left to do.

You could make a counterargument. Gamma and VPB were not the most townread, nor the most talkative. (Well, VPB might have been the most talkative, but that doesn't inherently make one a threat to the scumteam.) They might have had higher odds of being masons, but what makes you say that?

[Something_Smart]

Right, let me make a counter argument for the dead people... I'm just not maf? that simple

That's... not a counterargument.

[Something_Smart]

S_S, do you still have no direct read on Andante's play?

Do you scumread anyone else on play?

Yes (I have no direct read), no (I do not scumread anyone else on play).

[Something_Smart]

like, why wouldn't I leave them alive? their pushes on me were going no where, I can just lean into that and flood the thread with the nonsense. pretty easy

How would you know that their pushes were going nowhere? Especially after an unexpected town flip, people might be looking to take a new direction that they previously weren't open to.

[Something_Smart]

Does that worry you, or is it pretty typical for you to not scumread anyone in the game on play by this point?

It's typical. Usually I will go the entire game without doing that.

[Something_Smart]

You already gave a counter in 2186, I'm asking you to expand on it.

[Something_Smart]

Datisi, how would you rate Ari's ability to read me compared to your own?

[Something_Smart]

Well, if you said yours was clearly better, I was going to object to that. If you said hers was clearly better, I was going to ask why you weren't trusting it over yours.

Since you did neither, there isn't much more to say. I don't inherently think that Ari's townread is worth more than yours, except insomuch as she seems more confident.

[Something_Smart]

1) you know the answer already. you're just trying to lead datisi towards the idea that ari's townread on you is worth more than his own read. proposing that idea on its own isn't shady, but doing this weird indirect innocent-sounding-but-very-leading question thing is, imo

2) you are aware of the meta that ari will use to read you and are capable of adjusting your play around that. you clearly indicated here that you know what your town and scumgames look like, and that you are carefully thinking about how you play in relation to your own meta

These are both wrong btw. I genuinely did not know how he would answer, nor do I know what the true answer is. And just because I know what my towngame looks like in broad strokes doesn't mean I can adapt to what individual players expect, especially ones like Ari who approach the game vastly differently from me. What that post shows is that I'm scared to make any adjustments to my scumplay because I never know who is going to catch on.

[Something_Smart]

Also, I don't see how your objections relate to my alignment. Why am I more likely to do an innocent-sounding-but-very-leading thing as scum? You think I didn't know it was (potentially) leading, or I thought Datisi wouldn't notice?

[Something_Smart]

i feel like the last few games, my read on you has not been great, so "i didn't know what he'd answer" feels weird but meh

I don't think Ari's read on me is that great either is the thing

[Something_Smart]

He *could* be town here, but I still question his motives for pushing me so ehhh not TRing him!!

Here's a question, how does my push on you here compare to my push on you in PYP? Not intended to be leading, I'm genuinely not sure how similar it is externally (obviously internally it was much different as it was a big show there) and I'm curious to hear what you think.

[Something_Smart]

i don't remember ari supposedly having a strong bop on you, if she even does, so what was that question actually supposed to accomplish?

I want to get a better understanding of why you're disagreeing with her read, since she seems pretty confident in it.

[Something_Smart]

I don't even remember you pushing me in PYP tbh, but here it's like the only thing you're actually doing, and it's a weak attempt at a push, it's not like "ANDANTE MAF!!" It's just like "ehh possibly maf" and you're like hoping someone else runs with the idea?

ANDANTE MAF!!

better?

[Something_Smart]

That number is dependent on a lot of factors that there's no reason to share. I have a high degree of confidence that you are the best person to kill today.

[Something_Smart]

No. I meant in general, not in this specific game.

[Something_Smart]

Seems like Datisi might, though? You should take that up with him.

[Something_Smart]

what? you said Ari's read on you wasn't great, what's the specific part that wasn't great?

I meant that Ari's read on me, in general, is not great.

[Something_Smart]

If Datisi isn’t mason he’s literally maf

Why is this?

[Something_Smart]

About what?

[Something_Smart]

How confident are you that she flips scum here?

I don't know exactly nor would I want to share exactly, but I would say not super high.

[Something_Smart]

he's like obviously a mason

Doesn't seem worth it for me to confirm or deny this at this juncture.

[Something_Smart]

having fun today reading old games where SS was scum and getting more and more confused why people seem to be underestimating his abilities here

I think that's the totally wrong way to look at it.

[Something_Smart]

what's the right way to look at it?

I have been trying my hardest to minimize information for scum in a way that makes me actively harder to read directly. This is a goal that, at best, provides no benefit as scum, in return for giving me far fewer ways to avoid getting executed once pressure is on me. And in basically every scumgame I play, pressure eventually turns toward me, usually around day 3 or 4. Aka now. So probably most of what I've posted I could post as scum, but the way that I'm playing is never going to work in my favor if I'm scum. Whereas it might if I'm town, even if I end up being pressured and forced to claim.

[Something_Smart]

honestly if hut and/or SS are masons. they literally couldn't be MORE anti town right now, so no, I don't freaking care

It's not the masons' responsibility to lead. It's the masons' responsibility to not die, and not make their partners obvious if they do.

Regardless of whether I'm mason or VT, I am never going to be leading.

[Something_Smart]

Like, if masons only care about not dying... and the plan is to do NOTHING to achieve that, like... how are the other town supposed to even find the freaking mafia if we have masons acting like mafia to blend in? yeah... real solid plan

That's not acting like mafia, though. I wouldn't be deliberately doing nothing as mafia, for instance. It's something you don't like, and you're conflating that with being scummy, but I don't see how you would think that would advance the scum wincon?

[Something_Smart]

i think 2672 is kind of faulty in thinking s_s would be open to get yeeted if he's a mason and his buddy ari got killed, because whoever counterclaimed him would have to have Very Good relations with both gamma and aristeia, and off the top of my head, it seems unlikely

I don't think that really matters much to the argument-- it's just that scum presumably wanted to kill a mason and scum might have thought Ari was masons with me, but of course if I'm scum I know she isn't, making her less likely to be a mason.

[Something_Smart]

Also, as my banner indicates, I am low-ish activity this week. But I will be around.

[Something_Smart]

i'd be interested in literally everyone other than enchant and fire having a comment on this, though.

How is this not just a blatant mason fish

[Something_Smart]

I mean you picked out a possible mason and asked all the other possible masons what their thoughts on him were

[Something_Smart]

I guess I should clarify that it wasn't necessarily intentional, but it will necessarily have the outcome of possibly mason fishing if everyone answers honestly.

[Something_Smart]

while you're here, who do you want to vote today?

Answer depends on the wagons, but ideally not a possible mason. Clearly scum do not have good Intel on the masons and a VT death tonight is fantastic.

[Something_Smart]

Well if a mason had a scumread they were confident enough in to out and force through, I would gladly go along, but I don't think we live in that world, so I would rather not increase the chances of losing a mason a lot in order to increase the chances of killing scum a little.

[Something_Smart]

this setup severely limits my ability to just throw out every thought that comes into my head and that is a challenge for me

You are spewed not mason so I think you can, just know that if you make a really good argument for why someone is/isn't mason the scum may correctly buy into it. But they may not, and it may help read you, so it could be worth it.

[Something_Smart]

i have a lot of things i wanna say about s_s's strategy here, but none of them are actually alignment-relevant and also i have to go back to work, but

i hate it

If you have an insight that you think will help me play in a pro-town way, I am open to hearing it. I'm doing this because it's a team game, and in general my most useful role on the town team is not to help form solid reads, it's to help use mechanics optimally. It is tricky in this game, but I still want to give it a try.

[Something_Smart]

i am fairly confident that i am better at hunting masons this game than whoever the scumteam is considering that ive been right on the flip of every nk so far and scum has also missed twice

On the flip side, if you can correctly identify the masons, then that makes you townier because a team with you might not have missed like that.

I don't think this gives anything away-- why did you think Ari was VT?

[Something_Smart]

i feel like we're gonna be lazing around until the deadline forces us to scramble

I will become fully free with a little more than a day left in the deadline, unfortunately.

Gonna reread Ari at some point to see who would have wanted her dead.

[Something_Smart]

Sorry. More later.

[Something_Smart]

Ugh.

I'd like to do some reading first, but I will.

[Something_Smart]

I've reread everything I want to. I would like to kill Datisi. However, that seems like it immediately loses us the game if Datisi is town.

[Something_Smart]

I guess it probably doesn't benefit us for me to explain my reasoning.

I would also be fine killing Looker, if that somehow materializes.

[Something_Smart]

Despite my best efforts, I have little faith that scum won't kill a mason tonight. And the limlo tomorrow without Datisi is going to suck.

I'm really sorry about my activity, by the way. In different circumstances I could have kept playing the game while V/LA but this situation really required some deep thought in order to do anything and I just couldn't provide it.

[Something_Smart]

Ok

VOTE: Datisi

[Something_Smart]

Well, I liked fire's attitude at the end of the day yesterday.

[Something_Smart]

On the surface I struggle to understand why scum-Looker antagonizes me the way they did. If the purpose was to make me look scummy to save Datisi they could have pushed on me far harder, and if the purpose was to bait me into doing something that seems actively bad for the scumteam unless they expect me to come in and hard defend Datisi (which Datisi would know I wouldn't do).

[Something_Smart]

i actually didn't like yours lol

What was wrong with it? I extended the day until I could do the reading I wanted, did so, reached a conclusion, discussed with some people, and decided on an action.

[Something_Smart]

Hmm.

Scum are now 4/4 killing on the Penguin wagon. This could just be a coincidence. But if Looker is scum it means that scum have been deadset on killing everyone on that wagon except for them.

[Something_Smart]

I guess if scum expected masons to be on that wagon, then it implies Looker is scummier because they were able to hit one on the second try, meaning maybe they had a smaller pool to pick from.

[Something_Smart]

from a mason perspective, there could be 2 or 1 mafia in the unclaimed. under an assumption that me/enchant are town, a datisi townflip means that the other 2 unclaimed are mafia and thus the game is easy.

this doesn't make sense, why would I be assuming you and enchant are town in this case?

[Something_Smart]

I don't think there's a point to continuing this unless the consensus is that I should claim.

[Something_Smart]

so you're making a case for why I'm most likely VT and also saying you're going to vote me? or what, what's my motivation to say that as scum?

[Something_Smart]

You can't think of any reason why VT-me might not want to show up and hammer town-Datisi with 0 discussion?

[Something_Smart]

So you think I should have been like "I'm VT and I'm afraid that Datisi and Looker are both town and Looker will instavote me tomorrow"? What in the world does

that

help?

[Something_Smart]

It would have been possible, yes. Also possible that Enchant is the town and votes me.

[Something_Smart]

How does a TownTisi immediately lose us the game?

Both Enchant and Looker seemed pretty eager to vote me. And it makes no sense for an Enchant/Looker team to do that if the Datisi mislim is right there. So one of them was probably town, and would probably just vote me in limlo without thinking.

[Something_Smart]

Yes it was VT indicative. I felt like the risk of losing the game due to townies tunneling me was important enough to slightly increase the chances of a mason dying.

There's another thing that I forgot to mention-- me spewing VT wouldn't actually increase the chances of a mason dying. Because of the pressure on me, if scum thought the masons were me/X, they'd always kill X. And after Looker turned on me, the only viable X's left in that equation were the real masons.

The only thing that might conceivably happen is Datisi flips scum, one mason dies, and I somehow manage to convince scum I'm the last mason. But given the pressure, I didn't think that was likely either (and that thought seems to have been correct).

My explanations yesterday were halfhearted because I was trying not to claim VT but now that 100% of living players have expressed suspicion of me there's no reason not to. This is, I think, the main reason why I felt okay saying that.

And another side note, in case this wasn't obvious-- "I need to reread" meant "I need to figure out who the masons are". I was pretty convinced Ari was mason because of how she pushed Enchant and seemed confident they weren't mason despite that being the most likely explanation for why they quickhammered someone who was softing mason.

[Something_Smart]

V/LA till Monday

[Something_Smart]

I mean if fire and Enchant want to stake the game on the other being town then I won't contradict it, especially if hutmeil agrees.

Doesn't seem like anyone feels like engaging on a meaningful level, so whatever. Scum killed the mason I might have had a chance at convincing.

[Something_Smart]

Not me, because I read my role PM?

I'm obviously not gung-ho on any particular person being scum to the point where an argument would at all convince people not to vote me.

What I want to debate is more, what the hell was I doing all game? I was trying to protect the masons at the cost of worsening reads on myself, but if I'm scum that just sounds like a lose-lose. Unless you don't think I actually protected the masons, but you apparently knew the masons when scum were still lost, so there was at least some effort made to mislead them. I think it's entirely possible scum thought Ari was masons with me.

[Something_Smart]

you have stated before a lack of faith in your own scumplay abilities and so this playstyle seems like a reasonable approach from that perspective. it protects you from getting eliminated early, it prevents you from having strong associatives bc you didn't really give many opinions throughout the game, and you may be able to guess who is mason or VT based on how they interact with your approach

I don't think it really provides any of these benefits-- most people didn't give a shit about not wagoning possible masons for most of the game. I have things that could associate me with or tie me to both scum members (and I certainly didn't hold back from interacting with Datisi once it was clear he wasn't mason), and my approach really just generates WIFOM wrt how people respond.

Especially starting yesterday. What exactly do you think my plan to win was? Like, I know I'm a passive scum player, but I play to my outs. Why would I spend the entire day promising a reread when I could have been appearing to do something that would either save Datisi or (more likely) make me look unaligned with him?

[Something_Smart]

you're saying if you were scum you "could have been appearing to do something" more than you actually did?

Basically, yeah. I had plenty of brief opportunities to post, certainly if I wanted to push a simplistic angle (something you already have to accept that if I'm scum I was willing to do this game, because of Andante) I could have at least stated the angle and placed a vote instead of just delaying.

I delayed because I wanted to figure out the masons before doing anything, and that required a semi-close read. If I'm scum I have a vested interest in finding out the masons, yes, but not until night. (Also, knowing I was not a mason, it was trivial to determine who they were after Ari flipped, so my partner could have just done it and told me.)

[Something_Smart]

This was a highly sarcastic post that I deleted and decided to rewrite non-sarcastically, because that's not really constructive right now.

It doesn't make any sense for a me/Dats team to bus like that. I begrudgingly admitted I wanted to kill Datisi only after he was E-1, and even then, I left a pretty big out that I had to wait for fire and implosion to shut down. That's not me looking to get towncred off a flip I know is red.

Furthermore, a me/Dats team wouldn't want Dats to die that day-- we would much rather it be me. The only reason I was shielded so long is because I technically could have been a mason, and we'd know that would run out. Once that did, I would have little chance of winning this very endgame that we find ourselves in. If we wanted to bus, I could have helped Datisi put together a much more convincing case on me-- including pointing out reasons why I was unlikely to actually be a mason and thus I didn't deserve to be shielded. I know Datisi pretty well, we're both pretty tactical thinkers, I think we could have set that up in a way that would be pretty convincing.

Not to mention, he's just a much stronger scum player than me, especially lategame. My scumgame pretty reliably falls apart around D3-4. His scumgame remains solid and he has a lot of strong wins to back it up (most notably the championship game on EM); he only died here due to PoE, because scum allowed the possible-mason shielding to happen.

The main thing that frustrates me here is that to believe I'm scum you have to assume that either (a) we didn't see D5 going this way, or (b) we couldn't have done anything differently to prevent D5 from going this way. All of my scum history points to (a) being false, and (b) is just really hard to swallow with how Datisi and I played D4. (And again, I was not completely MIA during that week. I just didn't want to interact with the game without close-reading to determine the masons. But if the game depended on me making anti-partnery interactions with Datisi before one of us died, or on me actively drawing suspicion so Datisi could bus me, I was more than capable of doing that.)

And one other note that I don't expect to help but I don't see why I shouldn't say it-- I am often read very unfavorably by people who don't know me, because they don't understand/like my playstyle. Whereas, people who know me better can sometimes falsely townread me for things that I can replicate as scum. Obviously scum had other agendas with NK's, but scum have consistently killed off people who know me and left me alive with only people who don't. That is not something I do deliberately. I would always kill hutmeil over implosion last night (and yes, I knew it was you two, no other team makes sense knowing that I am not a mason).

[Something_Smart]

Because I don't want the day to end?

[Something_Smart]

If you wanted to talk to me, you shouldn't have let me get hammered.

[Something_Smart]

I don't think his actions make sense with Looker either, which has me worried!

[Something_Smart]

But I guess it's not my problem anymore.

[Something_Smart]

GG.

Replacements have an unavoidable impact on the game; I've seen plenty of times where scum play around the current playerlist only to get screwed by a strong or unexpected player replacing in. And you can't play around all possible replacements.

In this case, you did in fact mess up my plan; I put Mala to E-1 intending to look like a mason quick-voting the mason soft, expecting that nobody in the game would jump on a quickhammer. It's a problem, but I'm not sure who the burden is on to solve it. Honestly, the answer may be the administration, by punishing replacing out more harshly. But it's a hard problem.

[Something_Smart]

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