Newbie 2099 | GTA San Andreas | Endgame

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm here and will read up as soon as I can.

UNVOTE:

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why is there only one wagon?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I am the worst at reading anything that occurs in the RVS as I can never get a good read on anything going on. Everyone is seeming sus at this point to me lol.

This feels town

VOTE: Rad

Your turn to feel some pressure buddy .

This feels scummy

From first two pages, Spartan/Rad unlikely to be scum/scum, I don't usually do pre-flip associatives but yeah, that one seems pretty straight forward. Fancy is probably scum, no?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Whooooosssshhhhh

(Appeasement followed by a statement without any actual reasoning)

Zzoooooommm

VOTE: Bulbazoor

This is bad from Spartan, feels like OMGUS. Wants to know why he is scum read without outright asking the question.

To me this sounds like you're already giving yourself an excuse not to scum hunt.

That's absolutely not what Bulb said?

He said he struggles to gain reads on D1 and you then interpreted that as 'I'm going to be useless and ineffective for all of D1.' Like, wtf?

Fancy is asking a lot of 'busy questions' that don't look for AI responses and his push on Bulb on bad.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Juice's posting on p4 is real good, I like that a lot.

Juice and Bulba towny

Spartan and Fancy scummy

[BlueBloodedToffee]

So let me get this straight juice.

Fancy is definitely scum. And he's scum with either elemk or bulba. So the best move is to vote one of his maybe scum partners?

I don't like this.

Fancy was scum based off of Elemk being scum, no? So it would make sense to vote for his stronger scum read first (that he has reasoning for) and then if he is correct, start pushing Fancy based on the associative?

I'm surprised this wasn't picked up and I'm also surprised that Bulba just agreed with it. Would be the second time Bulba has OMGUS'ed, I retract my town read on Bulba.

Juice is still town. Alwaysnever can probably be town, too. I liked his post regarding Fancy's reads on himself and Goldfish.

Bulba moves into null/scummy, along with Spartan and Rad.

Fancy is still scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm OK with throwing out reads without explanation.

What I'm not OK with is throwing out reads -> being queried on them -> and not having an explanation for those reads.

That strikes me as manufactured.

Juice clearly explained both reads though so what you're saying is just false.

I get a town vibe from you because of content but there's a lot of making stuff out of nothing.

There is also a lot of pointless question asking in an attempt to look busy. This is regarding Fancy to be clear.

Cat hasn't said anything to change my mind about her, town reads are very easy for scum to do, and she hasn't taken a stance on who is scum

That said I'm less certain about Juice, I've been feeling that way for a while but I didn't want to unvote and relieve pressure quite yet.
UNVOTE:

VOTE: Goldfish
Is better methinks.

Scum probably in {Cat/Spartan/Goldfish}

I actually like this from Fancy. I'm wondering whether I have a problem with their playstyle as opposed to them actually being scum but they've definitely misrepped people on a couple of occasions now.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Juice, my predecessor's reads have absolutely no bearing on my take of the game.

Two completely different people.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Page 7, good posting again from Juice and Alwaysnever.

168 from AN is particularly townie

Cat is possible scum bc of their attitude/tone as well, only this time it's actually founded in something bc I've played a lot with her before so I'm familiar with the playstyle as town and scum.

If this isn't explained in more detail in the coming pages, it needs explaining.

Well I did want to pressure you and at the same time I was annoyed that I was being voted as

I tend to have knee jerk reactions any time I am voted.

This feels like an excuse for any reaction that may come from being voted in the future, could be the first scum slip of the game? Hmm

Same for this, in what world is that a scum slip? It's a 'By the way, if people vote me I generally don't like it and tend to bite back.' That's completely NAI

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Spartan is sheeping Rad hella hard in this game as well. Spartan has also seen Rad being pocketed before and possibly thinks he is susceptible to it?

Something to keep an eye on.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Don't you think it is strange that you thought I was dishonest and voted me - but then changed your mind and flip to town read me.
And that is the only thing you've actually done all game - and yet Elmk think you are most town because of it.

First part of this post is good, I don't see where, or why, FP's read changed on Juice.

Second part is just false, FP has been doing plenty outside of their push on you.

Anyway we should be putting pressure on
Spartan
Cat
Goldfish

That's where the scum are hiding.

Talk about these scum reads? I see later in the page you change your mind on Spartan, but explain where you were at at this point anyway.

This strikes me as sus. In general, it's my understanding that a town pr would want to try to avoid pushing scum too hard. Reason being, if you catch scum early as a town pr, you're more likely to be the nk and can't use your ability. I'm not saying that means elemk is a town pr, but suggesting that he should play differently if he is a town pr reeks of scum fishing out a pr claim.

Do you fundamentally disagree with the concept of how a town pr should be playing here Juice?

Hmm, this is good posting. I didn't pick up on the potential role-fishing at all.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Just do clarify my position on Spartan

I'm as sure as I can be of my town reads on:
Elemk/Alwaysnever/Rad/Juice/Bulba

That only really leaves the other 3.

They've all done what I expect of scum in newbies - that is not commit on scum reads at all, and throw out some token town reads.

In my opinion scum have trouble manufacturing scum hunting as they know whatever they say is essentially bullshit, even wrong opinions about who the scum are show intent. I've seen very little real scum hunting intent from those 3.

Answered my question on the very next page, starting to think I am wrong about FP. This is a decent post.

I'd like to point you to some of my previous games on this site, and point out that I'm not entierly new to the game of mafia and I'm actually not bad at bullshitting scumreads, it's a lot easier to make content out of nothing as scum than it is to actually work out whether what people are saying is really suspicious or if it's their playstyle or random and NAI.

If I was scum I'd be posting a LOT more reads because I know that not voting/scumreading people early on gets me scumread.

This is a really bad post, self-meta is just the worst type of meta.

I have not had the time to read through everyone's posts, rather that just throwing something together I'd like to be able to give some proper game content, I need to go to bed soon for work, I am going to sit down when I get in tomorrow and go through everything properly.

Also just to clarify but will expand on tomorrow, the plan I referenced before is based on mine and Rads last game where I called out the mafia day 1, and even though I was getting scum read d1 I was the night kill, and because I was town I helped I fluency Rad to get the job done in remarkable fashion I must say.
So acording to the plan it was all a joke about scraping me from the day 1 vote because I will be the night kill the first night, which I had intended to play more into in a chaotic fun way but unfortunately havnt had the time im sorry, I do still intend to try and nail down the scum team before day 1 ends and we can see post game how that compares if I can get a 2 in 2.

Spartan referencing his first game with Rad shows that it's at least somewhat at the forefront of his thoughts for this game. This lines up with my previous thinking of Spartan possibly attempting to pocket Rad. Very interested in hearing Rad's opinion on this.

A quick meta scan doesn't track with this.
I found two scum games:
- viewtopic.php?f=51&t=89374 - Open 850: Democrabilities (Postgame)
- viewtopic.php?f=11&t=89376 - Mewbie 2094 -- GAME OVER

In the first one your first read that isn't town or null is like 400 posts in.
In the second one you replace out after about 200 posts but post no scum reads.

Now it looks like you have experience offsite so this isn't a comprehensive analysis of your meta, but it does contradict what you said - you have not shown a strong inclination to scumread people more as scum.

If I was scum I'd be posting a LOT more reads because I know that not voting/scumreading people early on gets me scumread.

Also this statement format: "If I really was bad, I wouldn't do x, y, z." I find to be a very common lie format.

I don't want to town read FP for 'effort' but I'm probably going to. I'm 180'ing on my FP read, they can be town and this is good posting again.

But like I'm not sold. She could still be town. She's not a pr.

Why would you say this?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm stopping here for now, got about 6 pages to go and want to let the thread breathe a little instead of just spamming.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

How does this single aspect move me into scummy? I agreed because from the way I read Juice's post it seemed like FP was his scumread and he voted for someone he didn't appear as certain on. I thought it was a valid question from Rad.

Because you did it twice, it doesn't necessarily make you scum, but it is enough for me to want to retract my town read.

Also when did I omgus for a second time BBT?

You OMGUS'ed when Rad voted for you at the start of the game and you did it again with regards to Juice.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

After Juice had been saying you could possibly be scum

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That post was more of me giving some slight townpoints to Rad than any sort of omgus.

Except you said he had a valid point which at the very least implies you agreed with the questioning of your 'town read.'

My problem with this is if you're town, you basically get some free town perspective reads from your slot's previous owner. I would absolutely take that into account. You disagree?

Also yoooo bbt replacement, I love it, and of course he comes out swinging too this is like copy paste nai bbt entrance with regards to style. Will start to consider the actual content though. You caught up yet bbt or still working through those last 6 pages?

Are you saying town's reads are infallible? I don't care what my predecessor said or did, it has no bearing on my play or my reads this game.

I still have the last 6 pages to read, wanted to try and get some real-time interactions in if I could.

More like he tried to incorrectly paint me as omgusing lmao.

No, just because you OMGUS'ed indirectly it doesn't mean it wasn't OMGUS. I would argue that it's actually scummier to do it this way as opposed to outright scum reading someone for scum reading you.

Hi BBt

I need Goldfish to weigh in before I can really continue with this game.

Yo Fancy, I said a lot about you and you've had no response. What's with that?

Bbt thoughts on goldfish? She is at E-1. Me and juice wanted to flip your slot but fancy has been reading it town. I guess I should just let you catch up but I'm curious to get some more thoughts here. Spartan has claimed intent to hammer which may still be in effect but goldfish is nowhere to be found.

I haven't liked Goldfish's posting from what I have seen so far. However, the fact there is no counter wagon whatsoever rings serious alarm bells. This is diluted slightly by Goldfish not being active, but meh, one wagon never looks good.

Nobody is hammering Goldfish before they get a chance to come in thread and respond. Least of all Spartan!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I probably don't have anything current as I still have the last 6 pages to read, are you not concerned with the current game state?

Also, from what I can see, there are a few low posters. Couple of things for this; it's very easy for scum to hide in the lurkers and not contribute much. On the flip side, it's also very easy for scum to control the gamestate (looking at you or Rad!)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If it's been days then he will get replaced and the person who replaces in will get a chance to respond.

You're not hammering because I don't like your play so far this game. In fact, someone should probably unvote to give the slot time and ensure no hammer.

Do you want a repeat of last game? The downside this time is that I can't kill you so just have to go for the elim

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That doesn't worry you?

I still haven't read the last 6 pages but I think it's safe to assume that there has been little to no attempt to push a counter wagon to Goldfish. If Goldfish is scum, why hasn't their partner attempted to save them?

Were they so bad that their buddy decided to throw them under the bus? I'm not sure, odds of scum winning after a D1 elim on them, especially in a micro set-up, are ridiculously low.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT I would really like to hear your updated thoughts on the game.

How about no?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I sure will.

Are you voting Goldfish solely from Fancy's case?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, but you didn't comment on any of these at the time, unless I am mistaken?

So just Fancy's case then?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Umm, how have you ruled out TvT Juice?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It would be pretty risky for the final scum to come to goldfish's defense at this stage. Besides maybe they are. I'm not necessarily accusing you, but I do think it's possible the scum buddy is another lurker like Cat or someone who's looking for credit or even you. Ive lynched scum on day 1 a few times in newbies and I can't ever recall their scum buddies attempting to mount a valiant defense I can post examples with time but I'm on my phone at the moment so not tonight.

I agree, at

this

stage. The wagon had to start forming at some point though and there is clearly no counter from the VC. So their buddy just left them to die?

I see your point regarding lurkers though and said lurkers certainly not having the thread presence to dissuade a wagon on their buddy. We do seem to have a few lurkers, too. Meh, I'll concede that point.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can you elboborate a little more on why Fancy and myself cannot be town/town?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Elaborate. Ffs.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

The more I read that post from Juice the more I dislike it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

By asking people to unvote?

That's quite the jump you've made!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Spartan

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Is obnoxious a synonym for scummy?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That sounds like a you problem.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

On a serious note, that's a really shitty post for you to make regardless of your alignment.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What about Day One means that Fancy and I cannot be town.

Link to specific things please.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I can vote for Goldfish if you all really want this Day to end.

I feel like there are things that need discussing though?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Although Goldfish is only E-2 right now so maybe not

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You don't think 2 people who are town can think the same things as each other?

What is wrong with the reasoning for town reading each other? If you think Fancy is scum, what is wrong with his reasoning for town reading my slot?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Like I said - I don't mind hammering GoldFish - but they won't flip mafia

What a deliciously scummy thing to say.

You should probably make a big effort to push elsewhere if you believe this.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That doesn't answer anything I said in that post?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Juice

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I think AlwaysNever is probably town and would appreciate your support in the form of a vote on Juice.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah, I mean that's one way to look at it.

I didn't like their play around Goldfish, I didn't see them pushing hard enough for an alternative to the Goldfish wagon either if they genuinely didn't want the elim.

I didn't like their 'only one of Fancy/BBT can be town' as well, that's lining up elims.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Did you miss my post explaining my reasons Juice?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That is not a response to what I said.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You should probably vote me then?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can you show me this big push you tried to counter the Fish wagon?

Can you also explain why both me and Fancy cannot be town?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That's what I thought.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What question?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You're 'why are you lying?' question?

If you think I'm lying, prove it?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You want me to prove a negative?

Haha

Onus is on you, my friend.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Meh.

I'm done with this conversation.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Cool.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I also think its very possible - that FP could be town.

This would coincide with your 'only one of FP/BBT can be town.'

Expected.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Still answered none of my questions.

Quoting posts that don't answer my questions still isn't an answer.

But you do you.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No, I wanted you to answer my questions and none of those posts answered my questions.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You don't think 2 people who are town can think the same things as each other?

What is wrong with the reasoning for town reading each other? If you think Fancy is scum, what is wrong with his reasoning for town reading my slot?

Let's start again.

Answer this post please.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, but you stopped scum reading him like 30 mins ago?

And that still doesn't answer my post.

I'm leaving it here and will let other players post and see what their thoughts are.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

How can I accept you are town when you're lining up elims?

Only one of BBT/Fancy can be town. I want to elim BBT! BBT was elimmed, he was

town

.

Oh shit, looks like I was wrong. Fancy must be scum then! Fancy was elimmed, he was

town

You see my problem?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah, your argument is that both myself and Fancy cannot be town.

So, let's say you eliminate (kill) me first - and I flip town. You then just turn around and say 'Oh no, I was wrong on BBT, it must be Fancy then because they cannot be town if BBT is.'

I am town reading Fancy and I of course know that I am town, therefore from my point of view, it looks like you're trying to line up two town eliminations.

Given you cannot explain how both Fancy and myself cannot be town together, I have no choice but to come to the conclusion that you are scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I see.

When and why did that change?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hahaha, of course you did.

My vote stays.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can you show me this big push you tried to counter the Fish wagon?

Can you also explain why both me and Fancy cannot be town?

Can you show me this big push you tried to counter the Fish wagon?

Can you also explain why both me and Fancy cannot be town?

Just read through all my posts.

This you reading over night?

Was that also you quoting a bunch of D1 posts from yourself showing why Fancy and myself cannot be town?

Your 'I reread the game overnight' is complete nonsense.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

]
Why is he probably town? You kidding me?

I'm absolutely not kidding you.

A better question is; why is he scum?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

At no point was he scum telling - but most people weren't listening to me.

Why didn't you push for an alternative?

I know you are town though - because you being scum makes no sense

Who do you think is scum atm Juice?

What do you think of it being Bulba and 1 of Cat, AlwaysNever, or BBT.

I feel like the 2 scum are in that pool of 4.

Alwaysnever is probably town

I was sure of Elemk's slot - and BBT is also looking sus. I don't see how this isn't the logical push today.

Smells like OMGUS

If we assume - that last night a killed was stopped. Mechanics wise for this site - do both mafia have to vote a kill for a kill to happen

Scum have to submit a kill. But you know this already

[BlueBloodedToffee]

And you are flipping my read on the slot

This is you town reading me before I started voting you at start of Day Two, no?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I see, my bad.

When did the read stop 'flipping'? When I voted you at start of D2?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I see.

And because FP is town then I have to be scum. That's the gist of it, right?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I see.

Can you explain the correlation between Fancy being town and me being scum?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can you expand on said behaviour?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I would like you to, yes.

I'm picking up what you're putting down but I need you to see the flaw in your logic and I'm trying to get you to explain it.

UNVOTE:

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Cat

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Town reads are boring.

Who is scum Bulba?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You haven't read my posts, have you?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That's a nice misrep.

Almost the entire conversation was about how Fancy and myself could not be town.

So I went back to the beginning, where you agree that these questions were not answered, to try and make my position clearer.

What exactly is your problem here?

You think the posts Juice quoted answered how Fancy and myself could not both be town? Because they didn't.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Juice is still town. Alwaysnever can probably be town, too. I liked his post regarding Fancy's reads on himself and Goldfish.

Page 7, good posting again from Juice and Alwaysnever.

168 from AN is particularly townie

Say what, Cat?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

also refusing when Juice asked BBT to prove that juice hadnt pushed for another wagon for reasons other than not wanting to obstruct town

You can't prove a negative. What a ridiculous statement that is.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yes the conversation largely about if you and Fancy could be T/T and i did cut out that but it wasnt related to what i was saying so i dont know how that misreps you
It was fine for you to want for those questions to be answered but you brushed aside Juice answering other questions, that is my problem
As for if Juice explained why not T/T there was this, which no did not answer the question, but I dont care very much about that discussion and they answered other questions you did ask

It was related to what you were quoting though.

My two main questions were; show me how you pushed for an alternate wagon and why can't Fancy and myself both be town. Do you disagree?

Neither of these questions were answered. Do you disagree?

You cant prove it but thats what your case around them is mostly based off of? Well you can rarely

prove

anything in mafia but surely you must have reasoning.

My case is mainly based around the two questions posted above. You can't prove something doesn't exist, the burden of proof is on the person saying it does exist.

Okay so you have expressed a townlean for AlwaysNever before, but when asked earlier you could have linked to these posts instead of deflecting. My point is that you not doing that felt like you were purposefully making stuff more muddled and stagnent.

Right, so your initial accusation of me not explaining a read is false. Further, can you show where I refused to explain my Always read because I can't find it?

Are you saying I am scum for not repeating something that can easily be found in my ISO?

VOTE: Cat

I sure will.

Are you voting Goldfish solely from

Fancy's

Rads case?

Rads case being that Im scum because lurking when your own slot was lurking earlier so if you are town that would show you that lurking does not mean scum.

I didn't say I was voting you for lurking, but nice try I guess?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hi Juice,

You're wrong about BBT so let's start from that premise, shall we?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I think people need to read Cat's attack on me again, look at how many false statements she makes and the poor reasoning for her scum read on me, and then come and vote Cat with me.

Spartan, my vote started on Cat just to try and gain a read. Felt like she was the player in the game that I didn't really have much of a handle on and wanted to do something about it. I didn't particularly think she was scum, for lurking or otherwise, but her attack on me and defence of Juice is really poor and now my vote is actually because I think she is scum.

In relation to your Bulba read, do you purely think he is scum because he hasn't answered a question? I notice you mentioned deflecting as well, do you think defensiveness is exclusively a scum trait?

Rad, what did you like about the reasoning exactly?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Ngl I expected to wake up and see a counter vote from scum!bbt on me. Maybe not scum here, heh

Spartan's thought on 1 scum being on cat right now seems reasonable, I just disagreed with which person was scum.

VOTE: Bulba

Why does it seem reasonable? Why only 1? Why not both? Or none? Explain more.

I am going to be frank here - if Bulba flips town, where do people stand after that?

I just vote Cat again because nothing changes.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Just for clarity, can you expand on what you mean by 'no steam'?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hi Juice,

You appear to still be scum reading me and you should probably stop that and help me elim Cat?

How about it?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You should reevaluate that town read.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Or at the very least explain it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Of course the game picks up when I'm not around. Caught up and posting some thoughts;

VOTE: BBT

Would love an explanation for this vote. Did you think I was scum before I started pushing you?

Spartan's probably town here. End of D1 I felt like his emotions towards BBT were sincere.

UNVOTE:

Cat wagon can wait.

Couple of things;

Why do sincere emotions = town? Why couldn't scum!Spartan have sincere emotions about me saying he can't hammer and bringing attention to it?

I like your unvote of Cat at E-1, not in terms of alleviating pressure on a slot I want to elim, but in terms of letting the thread breathe.

Unless you're scum with Cat, of course.

FP - can you please not vote Cat. I feel we are both seen as the two most obvious town reads - so you are just giving mafia an easier time by pushing on who I would consider the third most townie person

You said Cat was your biggest town read when I asked you to vote for them?

At least ask me shit

Engage me. Don't just go off of some BS case

This kind of posting is scummy. Like, you can't independently contribute to the game without other people engaging you first. Shows a lack of genuine game-solving.

Well, I know you want me to say bbt, bulba, Spartan. And that's probably my order anyway, but bbt and bulba are more equals than ordered there. This isn't bbt's scum game from my experience with him but he's still doing questionable shit that I don't love. I read a previous game of his recently and had him as my top town read all game only to find out when the game ended he was scum. I hard defended him in my first newbie and he was scum. He's doing nothing here that I expect scum bbt to do and I think his town play is just scummy in general. I leaned on that fact in my scum game against him.

Cat, BBT, Bulba are my POE.

Your read on me here is all over the place. Feels very fence-sitty. 'This isn't BBT's scum game', 'he's doing nothing that I expect scum!BBT to do' and 'his town play is scummy' all mixed in with a sprinkling of meta bullshit. Then I appear in your PoE, wtf?

For example - I would lynch BBT or Bulba.

If people change their scum reads after Day 2 - it will also rouse suspicion

You're supposed to change reads when new information is presented. Keeping reads static/stale is a classic scum tell.

1.) i think Cat is probably town (my initial read on the slot was colored a lot by BBT's sun on Cat & i townread BBT). i think their responses to being put under increasing pressure have been good.
as for that BBT/Cat interaction today (my initial reason for scumreading Cat) -- tbh i don't know how to read it. these long disagreements of people misrepresenting each other / not responding to questions (Fancy/Juice day one, BBT/Juice day two, BBT/Cat day two, Sparta/Bulb day two)... i realize i tend to read all of them as TvT. (@BBT -- why did you read Juice as town & Cat as scum today when, to me, from the outside, your disagreements with both of them feel the same.) i also don't think w!Cat puts themself on the line to defend t!Juice so intensely; if Juice is town & so widely townread, it's surely in the best interest for wolves to make Juice seem suspicious for end of day one.

Which responses do you feel were good? In our back and forth, they consistently misrepresented me,

agreed

with some of my points after I refuted them but

still

scum read me anyway. In what world is that town? I suggest you go back and reread.

Juice gave me reason to believe he was town and that's pretty much all I'll say on it. I initially voted Cat because I had no read on them and wanted to either apply pressure or force an interaction to try and help me (despite Cat repeatedly saying I was voting them for lurking which is flat out untrue). Our back and forth pretty much confirmed them as scum for me due to reasons previously stated and even more so with their OMGUS approach to me now.

I will probably never understand why exactly I am even a target for a lynch. But whatever. I need to cool my head instead of resorting ti calling you all fucking idiots.

This feels town and I get this feeling completely. The whole PoE thing is awful, provides great cover for scum who don't have to do much work because 'PoE'.

- Post 309 the "NAI" goldfish, they have clearly played many many games together, I can see scum cat here not wating to cinriminate herself to strongly by scum reading Goldfish but keeping the lynch open by not townread her.
-

No genuine scumreads all game, she's basically coasted and only effort posted when poked, classic

No interest in actually solving the game just saving her own skin.

- I've read some of town cat's games and I think she puts more effort into game solving when that's actually her win condition.
- Also process of elimination from town reads.

+1 @bold, good posting.

Time for my gambit - was I interested in who people scum read? Yes.

Did I think everyone would tell the truth? Not at all. I also knew - that with a lot of people town reading me, I had an advantage in making this play.

Four people put forward: Bulba/BBT.

One of you is 100% sheeping me, so I town read you. Which mean either - Spartan, Cat or Flower is second mafia and partnered with BBT.

And Bulba - I haven't scum read you for a while, but you were the perfect candidate for people to vote without any real reason to back it up. The fact that Cat has a large amount of votes - means that is quite possible that he is mafia, and my town read is flawed. But I am confident that at least one of Spartan, Cat or Flower will flip mafia.

My actual town reads: FP, Rad, Bulba

That was interesting, the whole PoE thing was awful but I kind of like it a little better now. Your town read for someone sheeping you is bad reasoning but whatever. Flower is also probably town, stronger town read here now that Flowers has replaced in.

You need to talk about that Rad town read, too.

Unrelated to my response here, there has been a lot of talk about pre-flip associatives and this is an awful way to scum hunt but a great way to further conf bias whatever read you're pushing as town. Anybody doing this needs to stop and evaluate their reads independently. After flips, then you start using associatives.

Juice - is cat the compromise vote to vote with your town block? Cause I feel like you should be voting bbt here, and I'd consider doing that with you, but fp hard vetoes it and all of us have cat as top pick. Is that your thinking?

Talk about why I'm scum?

Also vote Rad WTF.

You not voting is so scummy.

You're someone whose played a decent amount of mafia.
You have two suspects, and you're not voting either,

My thoughts now are that you don't want to commit to your scum buddy Cat and are hoping that the bulba or BBT wagons will take off.

You're fence sitting to save your partner and don't want to commit either way.

Convince me otherwise please.

More good posting

i'm feeling quite lost -- does anyone want to help me out...

for the record I'm fine with voting BBT today

when i came to the point in my reads where i had Bulb & BBT in my PoE i felt like i had a good grasp on the game & now i don't at all!! i like Bulb's responses to my posts. two of my top town reads townread him (Fancy & now, post-gambit, Juice). no one else has had a similarly positive reaction to Cat's posts today (day two). my PoE right now is just BBT which makes me pretty bad &, since i don't really have any scumreads & just PoE to work with, that makes me feel pretty bad!

Can you not do this? Thanks

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Where I'm at;

Town - FP, Juice, Flowers, Bulba
Null - Spartan (don't like this)
Scum: Cat, Rad

Fancy seems to read the game very similarly to me in almost every way, highly likely to be town. Had an early town read on AN and Flowers has enhanced that, specifically by being very fluid with their reads and reevaluating things (though I kind of wish you hadn't reversed your read on me!), Juice is town for reasons I think are anti-town to go into and I quite liked their gambit play. I think that's reasonably difficult to fake as scum. Bulb is town for emotion, which is a weird one for me as I don't usually include emotion for reads, but his constant questioning of why people scum read him comes across as genuine town frustration.

Spartan is kind of a back and forth read for me and I need to look more closely at him. I don't really have a read either way on him and it makes me uncomfortable because we're nearing D3. His recent misrep of my town read on AN/Flowers is pretty bad though.

Cat is scum for reasons previously stated. She only started scum reading me after I started trying to gain a read on her and pushed her. Her reasons for scum reading me were mainly refuted and yet the scum read continued anyway. That's agenda driven, not a genuine read and she seriously lacks in the game solving department. Has she had any serious interactions outside of interacting with me (which I had to engage btw).

Rad's positioning throughout D2 has been awful. Seems reluctant to commit, especially in terms of his read on me. Fancy had some really good posts in this regard, too and I don't think town!Rad would have many problems town reading me here. I do think scum!Rad knows my game well enough to manipulate though and he seems awfully ready to jump aboard a BBT wagon.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

This is a really, really bad idea.

Look at the composition of my wagon.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If someone can give me something to respond to as to why I'm scum as well, that would be fantastic.

Because I haven't seen much from anyone.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

We're not flipping to flower at all Juice

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't think town!Rad would have many problems town reading me here

I read over your 2098 and 2095 games recently. In 2098 I townlocked you as my highest town read and you were scum. In 2095 I leaned town and you did end up as town, but I had you right next to null there. And of course in our 2096 game I hard defended you much of the game and only turned on you because I decided to sheep dead town reads in a lucky gambit. I dunno where you're getting the idea that I'm capable of easily reading you but it's just not true.

If that's the case, and you do struggle to read me so badly, why haven't you engaged me?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'd prefer us both not to die.

Why are you assuming I'm more worried about them than myself?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It's not going to be me because I am town and it's really bad for town if you elim me.

You didn't answer my question either

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Like, look how Cat's read progressed on me. I understand there was time inbetween reads and Cat 'read' the game but I go from townie to scum in a heartbeat with no real reasoning why.

Cat needs to address this.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It comes almost straight after I vote Cat as well.

OMGUS much?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

16 hours till deadline

Why didn't you respond to me?

i can see BBT trying to pocket me after seeing how quickly i started moving Bulb into my townleans & then engaging in the thread & with me in a similar way if i let myself tinfoil) but those are not my only reasons.

Sorry, can you talk me through this?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Let's gooooo!

Also, I realise I am likely dead today but let's use time wisely first, yeah?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

How do you know I didn't try and you were protected?

I don't understand this flip in your read at all. It wouldn't be just you either, I was the counter wagon to Cat yesterday so it's natural that I get elimmed today.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Talk to me about Rad being town.

He has almost completely avoided engaging me in this game and it makes me uncomfortable

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Expand on it?

Show me why he is town because I don't see it. His play around the Cat/BBT wagons was hedgy and I think that's where I'm looking today.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If I had a Vig right now that's where I would shoot yeah

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I mean, I don't have a Vig, I'm just emphasising that that's where I'm most confident we'll find scum Today.

I doubt scum didn't kill either, for sure we're dealing with a Doc or JK. Doc would be a lot better in terms of reliability though

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Not it

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm sorry, what?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah, I think I have to be elimmed Today.

We have time to win this game and if I'm not elimmed today scum will keep me around until end game as the mislim for the win.

I'm pretty confident that Rad is scum but I'll need to reread the game to figure second. If Fancy is scum then it's GG because I don't think anyone catches them.

Juice/Spartan PRs. Fancy very likely town (I'll reread ISO just to check this) which leaves me with Rad, Bulba and Flowers.

It's just Rad and Bulba isn't it?

I tell you what Bulba, you scum read Rad and I scum read Rad, so how about we elim them?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Don't be scared, we can elim me the day after.

We both scum read Rad and that JK on Rad looks pretty convincing. Let's elim there first, shall we?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Don't be scared, we can elim me the day after.

We both scum read Rad and that JK on Rad looks pretty convincing. Let's elim there first, shall we?

What do you think of a elim between bulba and flowers and provided whichever we elim is red, juice jails Rad and we win right?

I can do Bulba but I'm not prepared to elim flowers before both Rad and Bulba.

Rad > Bulba > Flowers

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Rad

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Have you seen their posting?

AN was good enough for a lean town read, flowers had been really pro-town in everything they have done.

If that slot flips red, I quit Mafia.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Nothing wrong with some early votes, make people commit! I agree with no elim yet though

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You are hyper focused on me for no reason. Nobody else wants me out so thankfully you aren't getting your wish

Maybe I have information? aha

Ohhh shittttttttt.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I wish I could have GIF'd that.

But such is life.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

2vs2 is auto scum win I believe as they have achieved parity.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Maybe it was bbt and spartan and spartan is not PR.

Spartan not being PR is something I hadn't thought about.

That's interesting

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If that slot flips red, I quit Mafia.

Does this count if you are also mafia or is this just coming from if you are town? aha

Only if I am town of course! If I'm Mafia, I'll also quit Mafia. How about that?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Seriously though Spartan, PR and actions?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Spartan what is your actual role? Being the last person to claim PR - after everyone said noo. But then not outing what role, means that you aren't actually clear at all. And I shouldn't have outed myself

I'm town tracker so we have a mafia roleblocker - A2

Hmm, actions?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hahaha, I do like playing with my food.

Is 'No comment' a viable answer?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Rad, entertain me and talk about how Flower is scum please?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Nah, that ain't it. PoE is a favourite for scum.

You need to convince the rest of us.

Shoot your shot. I'll wait.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Spartan share your juicy info with us already

Said Rad, nervously...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Vote Count 1.05

————

GoldfishFromTheMoon (5)

: FancyPants, Bulbazoor, Rad, Juice, Spartan117

[ELIMINATION]

Spartan (1)

: BlueBloodedToffee

Not Voting (3): GoldfishFromTheMoon, AlwaysNever, Cat.Jpeg

With 9 alive, it's 5 to eliminate.

Deadline for Day 1 is August 14 at 9:00 PM GMT +8

Deadline Timer:

(expired on 2022-08-14 21:00:00)

Sorry for the absence. Busy work week.

Hey guys, I was off the Goldfish wagon so I must be town!

Is that how it works, Bulba?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Interestingly, Fancy has been on both wagons though, trying not to WIFOM myself on him.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If we get a red flip, I can do some VCA which will hopefully be of some help.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Interestingly, Fancy has been on both wagons though, trying not to WIFOM myself on him.

I think its too late for FP he is just town at this point, if hes scum gg

Yeah, I concur. I kind of just want the ego post, you know?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Bulba

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Bulba/Rad

I'm the best.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Makes sense with them both posting teams including each other but not going for each other as well

Also, if Bulba legit thought Spartan was faking, he would vote him, no? Actions not lining up with words

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You're saying he is faking a track on you - that would make him scum because you would know you are town. Logic says a vote would follow because Spartan would be confirmed scum to you.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why would I vote him? It is possible he is just testing me and really is PR. I have no idea what he is doing.

That's a good point in fairness.

Maybe Spartan isn't even a tracker and is just scum. That shit would be funny.

Funny if we caught him. Not funny if he was scum and won.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Crumbs?

I love crumbs!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Ohhh, a reaction test. Nice.

Bulba failed.

Bulba/Rad.

Easy

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can you take me out of your elim pool and put Rad in please?

PEdit - @Spartan

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: flower

Scum claim

[BlueBloodedToffee]

ohhhhhhhh ok i also don't understand jail keeper!!

JK blocks all actions

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Rad

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I can't get to everything I want to as I'm out at the min.

I don't particularly like it Spartan, but I'm reasonably confident that it's Bulba/Rad so as long as we go for one of those first, I'm happy.

Fancy, scum can multitask. Roleblocker can both block and kill at the same time

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Here is an interesting thought.

I'm pretty sure that it's Bulba/Rad and their posting today supports this theory. However, Bulba is happy enough to vote Rad, but despite Rad scum reading Bulba he simply won't vote there, instead choosing to push Flowers.

Bulba is roleblocker and Rad is goon?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

UNVOTE:

Just to stop any potential shenanigans

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Because I have town read Flowers to one extent or another for almost the entire game. I can, and will, reevaluate this read but I don't think now is the time to do so.

Plus, Bulba's approach to today and their interactions with Rad look like s/s. I think I read a lot of Bulba's tone as newb town when I probably shouldn't have, I've been reading people on emotion a lot lately and I really need to stop

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Makes sense with them both posting teams including each other but not going for each other as well.

Mostly this.

Bulba seemed to be scum reading Rad but was reluctant to vote there when pushed. I feel like Bulba need coercing into voting Rad which he really shouldn't have.

I plan on going back through the game to see if there is any more of this when I can get to my PC and have the time.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I should mention that it also works in the opposite way, Rad is scum reading Bulba/Flowers and is choosing to push Flowers.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I was coerced into voting rad? Okay bro. I legit said I wanted rad out today. I would 100 percent have targeted juice night 1 or 2 as a night kill. In what world does a rad nk make sense from my POV?

Yeah, you were.

If you guys want it made anymore clear: my theory is BBT is RBer

Are you, just, mirroring my arguments?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What in the world is that?

No other contributions Rad?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I can do Bulba

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Man, that's some heavy AtE. Almost made me town read you!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah Rad, vote him.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I wonder if Bulba has done this mirroring thing throughout the game or if it only just started Today.

Feel like I would have noticed it earlier in the game if it happened

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Oh wow

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Must...resist...urge...to...vote...scum

Playing...against...win...con...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You've never been the leading wagon and have barely even been a wagon itself during the entire game.

That's quite a stretch to say you have had no room to breathe.

The continued mirroring thing is fascinating, I really need to get to my PC so I can have a look at a few things.

I understand how you need to get Rad elimmed before yourself though, I really do.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No, I agree with your own reasoning completely.

I believe you're the RB'er and you, as you said you would, asked Rad to do the killing to protect yourself as RB'er. Rad got jail kept and prevented from killing someone.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Bingo ^^^

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No, it isn't.

If you're RB'er you are a much better elim.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Am I town or am I scum?

Your perspective keeps shifting it appears...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I see, thanks for clearing that up after saying there is no reasoning with town during your discussion with me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Scum!Fancy is incredibly hard to catch IMO, if he is scum then he just wins.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: flower
this game is a clusterfuck at this point.

I'm getting super tired of fighting this. In what world is Flowers scummier than both Rad and Bulba? Look at their read progression from Today, it's so natural and fluid.

The more I read BBT's post, the more it seems like a play by scum to then reference and be like "Oh I totally knew he was PR but I kept him alive". And they also didn't know the setup so maybe this roleblock took them by surprise.

Why say something like that unless you were planning to bring it up later to give yourself town credit?

I suppose this would be relevant if I myself brought it up. But I didn't. So it's not.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

As opposed to just killing the PR and depriving town?

Sure. That makes sense.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

There is WIFOM and then there is, as Fancy put it, gross negligence.

It would basically be against my wincon to not kill a PR.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That sounds exactly how this game is going to go.

Rad goes today, 100%.

After that, if I could kindly request scum kill me so that I don't push Fancy in ELo that would be fantastic, thanks!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm not sure why you would die ahead of Juice though?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Flowers

Rad tomorrow.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Also, if Fancy is scum his D1 play was pretty good.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Flower

Double hammer?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Sorry Fancy

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No reactions, town were really unlucky with a couple of things in this game, specifically mechanics.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Redactions*

[BlueBloodedToffee]

N2 Rad was jailkept and so he couldn't do the kill.

We (I?) actually thought that Juice was Cop and so we roleblocked randomly to try and stop Doc protecting Juice.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah, you were spot on Bulba. Really, really good reads, just lacked slightly in the persuasion aspect of play.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Thanks Fancy, much appreciated. Overall I think you played well and I think you're really good at obv towning, just the mechanics part that let you down really but again, your thought process was sound.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah I definitely lack in the persuasion aspect. I get too emotional too quickly. My apologies

It*s a learning process, I'm quite similar in that if I start being pushed/wagoned it really clouds my thoughts about the gamestate

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT - did great to turn around Elemk terrible start. Should of just stayed on my original read.
Shame about the self hammer - but it is what it is. Want to say sorry to Bulba for freaking out - they had cleared themselves by going to giving me hammer of them. But meh it is what it is.

If I had understoof how JK worked - I would never have softed

Thanks man.

Yeah, JK is a tricky one. It's a lot less straightforward than if you were a Doc.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Motherfucker tracked me!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Thanks for Modding HEM, single handedly keeping the Newbie Queue going, great job mate!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Done

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Both Rad and I have said no redactions so I'm sure HEM will open up soon