Mini Normal 2298 - Game Over!

[Merlyn]

Hello! Trying to catch up as quickly as possible.

[Merlyn]

Looks like pages 1-4 are RVS and having fun only, plus this:

I hope Cephrir won't get jealous of StD and i, we're such good friends in this game.

Awfully neighborly of you

i hope this isn't the worst crumb of all time

I mean, I thought that too, but why the hell did you point it out?


Game seems to start with firebringers 105.

[Merlyn]

Marquis is clearly playing seriously by [post]111[/[post], which is just a vote with no explanation yet- but for some reason a bunch of posts happen and no one asks why, or tries to get serious with him. I see there are some dead townies in there, but I’m wondering if there was also scum trying to prolong the silly fun times.

[Merlyn]

WBWOP:

Marquis is clearly playing seriously by 111, which is just a vote with no explanation yet- but for some reason a bunch of posts happen and no one asks why, or tries to get serious with him. I see there are some dead townies in there, but I’m wondering if there was also scum trying to prolong the silly fun times.

[Merlyn]

Hmm ok.
Wagon analyzis sounds a bit like magic to me but i guess i’ll take your word for it.
So what do you think the wagon on Brian is formed of? Mostly town? Scum?

At times it does feel like magic and at times like you have been trying to find patterns in fruit pips.

But at this stage its to often to early to be able to tell the wagon composition esp on that first wagon of day one. With most games you could only see once players started to flip. The 4 votes on brain all landed with an hour of the game starting with it quickly dropping back down to 3 after the 4th.

There really isn't a wagon on Brian- all the votes were RVS. Bob could be clever scum throwing in a distraction with all the 'probabilities of the first real wagon' stuff but to me it just sounds like new-ish town. Keeping an eye on NorwegianboyEE for potentially keeping that discussion going knowing it would just distract from scumhunting.

[Merlyn]

i mean because it was super obvious and it doesn't really matter if scum know about neighbors

How so?

[Merlyn]

it just struck me that actually there's only one person yet to post. for some reason i expected there to still be a few others who hadn't.

i genuinely think the thread as it is now is almost entirely barren of AI content, barring personality reads of people's humor, on which i'm mostly too informed to speculate.

i expect this game to be painful.

I think they meant uninformed but this otherwise this is really true. Kind of a shame to see several people who flipped town distracting from real hunting by talking about chat gpt for 2 pages.

I'm going to make a note here about who was actively trying to play by page 10:

Elpis
Ethel
cephir
marquis
bob (?)

[Merlyn]

i mean because it was super obvious and it doesn't really matter if scum know about neighbors

How so?

...what do you think scum are going to do with the information that there are neighbors

I would think that they'd use the information to kill a power role.

[Merlyn]

BTW if this constant posting is too much, someone let me know and I'll just write it all in a google doc and do one big post.

[Merlyn]

Now it got boring.
Who wants to vote a slot that hasn't really showed their 100% yet.
VOTE: Save the Dragons

I kind of feel that Scum!Norwegian wouldn't have broken up the tvt of NSG and Firebringer arguing right there?

[Merlyn]

bob3141 im gonna eventually expect u to say something with ur long posts.
U put in a lot of words but not actually anything really saying anything about what is going on in the game that is discerning anything alignment wise. Just general talk that holds no water to solving. If you got nothing to say its fine to not say it but ur empty air posting and its kind of annoying because its not even a funny shit post.

I’ve thought this so far, too.

I'm here I think scum have done a p good job at demoralizing town/me thru noise
I don't realistically think I or any replacement is going to go back and trawl thru day 1 for analysis on changing dynamics or w.e

Hello!

[Merlyn]

I mean I'm aware I'm being a stick in the mud but I do think scum appreciate being able to hop in with random talk the past 12 pages like most of town have been. I guess scum could coast like NSG but don't think anything about this demoralizes scum

Yup, that’s my thinking too, I think scum has no problem prolonging the randomness and funniness of the game so far.

HE ALWAYS HAMMERS EVERYTHING UNVOTE NOW

Okay, that’s pretty darn town.

What a wild situation! Two now conf town almost threw a hammer to a now conf scum. I’ll be honest, I’d be scumreading NSG/Brian right then if I’d been in game.

No free outs. You have to suffer like the rest of us.

Y’all

[Merlyn]

i mean because it was super obvious and it doesn't really matter if scum know about neighbors

How so?

...what do you think scum are going to do with the information that there are neighbors

I would think that they'd use the information to kill a power role.

neighbor is not a power role

Help a new kid out, why not?

[Merlyn]

So my slot essentially caused the D1 mislim, sucks to be me

Ppl on the Enchant wagon that aren't conf town: Cephrir, Elpis, NorwegianboyEE. I think there has to be scum there. The idea that it was an all-town wagon is too much for me.

Okay, have to take a break but will start again tomorrow

[Merlyn]

Okay, just one more thing: I think that MT was the kill instead of FB because FB was reading a wolf as town and they were a strong voice.

[Merlyn]

People who were on the NSG wagon that are not conf town
Ceph
Norwee

Pple on the bpp/MT wagon that are not conf town
Ceph
Marquis
Elpis

This is very pretty and definitely makes me want to vote you a lot less. That doesn't make it non-zero, but I'm impressed and I don't really think a scum slot would townread literally everyone while they're one of the biggest wagons. That'd be maybe bad I think?

Why are you saying this like you were on the BBP wagon bc you read them scummy?

Swap votes now bc u trust me to explain later anyway
source: trust me

Hmm....well you ARE the most townread person here I feel like.

VOTE: Ballpoint Pen

This is basically a joke vote.

[Merlyn]

Ppl on ethel wagon that aren’t conf town:

Andante
Norwee

Ok i'm about to drive like 6 hours so I won't be active for a bit, but can people post why they're voting Ethel? They seem very towny to me and I want to know the source of the wagon

I think this is an example of scum coming out strong for someone they know will flip town, so they can look towny too.

Ppl on enchant wagon (frmerly nsg) not confirm town
Elpis

980- Norwegian votes ethel as NM wagon heats up

So we lost two power roles which obviously sucks ass, and I genuinely really wanted to see more from MT, so I'm actually pretty upset about that. I wish enchant had given a better entrance so we would've voted someone else instead of rolling more into that one.

This feels like a manufactured excuse to be on that wagon to me.

I got the same impression last game, and it was kind of upsetting? I feel like social games like this encourage pointing out any tiny little thing and being overconfident about it, and I dislike that.

Huh, actually this is my favorite part of mafia

you're CONFIDENT ceph isn't scum? I can't recall a single past game he has played like this, idk, he was fine till d2 here, d2 I'm just like "what are you doing?" cause it feels like he's gonna use this "I feel defeated" mindset as an excuse to not do much here. I don't get your high confidence in this, especially after you were just on the enchant wagon. was that a high confidence scum read?

Good questions

[Merlyn]

feels like gimli is over exaggerating how bad he fucked up to seem more townie in 1199.
like theres town beating themselves up. And then theres performance beating urself up
and that feels performative to me

Yeah, me too, I’m genuinely shocked I’m town

having andante and ethel as maybe the only two people i currently trust is rough given the former's insistence on murdering the latter

Whether you’re scum or not you are genuinely delightful


Elpis post 1328: I think this is a great readslist for scum to have. Pretty much everyone is town or null, and there’s so much hedging there. and I the way that NM is phrased is good to show later that you were ‘onto’ scum even though its not enough to start a wagon

The andante fighting afterwards seems like a great distraction, too, andante even tries to start a wagon on NM and the arguing just kinds of washes over it…

I think elpis hammered NM when it was clear things were headed that way, great to have a scumbuddy do this

norwee simply has no reads, it's a bunch of just being around and interacting and going nowhere with it

That's disingenuous. I very clearly have reads even if i don't post a neat stacked reads list.

I feel like I can point to a lot more posts where you say you’re bored with the game than reads from you

It seems like such a weird kill because I don't think he had a lot of big takes on anyone? I would argue that it could be a StD kill but that seems incredibly weak considering anyone could look at that and be like "hmmm he suspected StD and then died". I'm trying to figure out what to gather from it.

It’s good for scum to take out such a strong tr by most if not all people. Its actually more surprising he wasnt the N1 kill.

Ppl on brian wagon not conf town
Cep Elpis Norwee

[Merlyn]

I have a readslist, but I don't want to share it if we're no eliming- I'm hoping that one of two people I just can't see being partners will end up biting it.

I support a no elim- we're in dire straights here, and one less person to pick from benefits town.

VOTE: no elimination

[Merlyn]

People who were on the NSG wagon that are not conf town
Ceph
Norwee

Pple on the bpp/MT wagon that are not conf town
Ceph
Marquis
Elpis

This is very pretty and definitely makes me want to vote you a lot less. That doesn't make it non-zero, but I'm impressed and I don't really think a scum slot would townread literally everyone while they're one of the biggest wagons. That'd be maybe bad I think?

Why are you saying this like you were on the BBP wagon bc you read them scummy?

Swap votes now bc u trust me to explain later anyway
source: trust me

Hmm....well you ARE the most townread person here I feel like.

VOTE: Ballpoint Pen

This is basically a joke vote.

I wouldn't call it a joke vote necessarily? At the time I heavily townread Marquis, (as did others), and to an extent thought they felt trustworthy. I should also add that a lot of my earlier posts in this were not **excellent** in rationale, as I was actively in the process of moving and had my attention shifted.

All totally possible, and very reasonable explanations that could be true! But they'd be easy to hide behind too as scum.

[Merlyn]

I'm a little confused about each of these assessments. I townread ethel because I just thought her posts felt like they came from town. Like, sure, I can see the argument you want to make here, but I genuinely just wanted to know what people saw when I didn't.

As for the Enchant thing, they entered with hostility and I never vibe well with that sort of thing. I tend to let emotion take the reins sometimes when that occurs and it's a definite flaw in my logical processing.

And with cephrir-- We're just very close friends, I just would be surprised if I was reading him wrong. I've made a couple posts regarding why specifically I think, but generally I just think I know where he's coming from.

That's interesting to hear you say, because you don't strike me as an emotional player *at all*. You're very friendly, very laid back, and very reasonable. But letting emotion take the reins? I don't see that, even in your responses to me you're very calm.

I also think it's a bit of a stretch to say that Enchant entered with hostility. They actually entered with a joke, and this has been a very jokey game.

I did see that you and Ceph are real life friends, and I can see that being a thing town!you would think. And for that matter I think Ceph is thinking it about you. But I'm just thinking that in a game where two people literally have to deceive to win, if one of you got a red PM you'd have no choice but to try to fool the other.

[Merlyn]

Well, ok then.
Can we nolim yet or are we waiting for something else?

Why the rush? What do we gain by hurrying again through another day?

[Merlyn]

I wanted more from Marquis before going in to night tbh,
I'm currently conflicted on the Gimli slot, I was SRing Gimli a lot, and now Merlyn is like, kinda good but like I'm unsure lol cause the amount of effort is like "woah..." scum that's like "tr me!!!"?? or town that's like "I gotta fix this slot"
I'm so lost on where scum is.
Hey Merlyn, what are your thoughts on Marquis at this point?

Yeah, I mean my slot is super sus, everyone town should be suspecting the hell out of it. I wish we were in a position where I could just solve it offering myself up and taking me off the board, but we're not so I have to try and help town somehow.

So, here's what bugs me about Marquis- he managed to not be on any wagon that resulted in a lim. Not even the good one with NM. I'm worried this is a tell that they are very good at staying out of the limelight. But I haven't found anything overtly scummy in his posts.

Anyway I'm pretty sure scum is Norwegian and Ceph/STD. Going to finally try and find those series of posts from D1 that made me sure
I have like no idea what happened D2 and D3 tbh I knew day started but I was putting off catching up until I felt a bit better and then they just ended fast
Idk what the motivation was for that

I know you have shingles (sorry, I've heard it's rough!), but I would really love to hear where you were going with this and if you thoughts are the same or not considering STD was town.

[Merlyn]

right?! When normally it's such a townread from me when someone lurks in the background!

[Merlyn]

right?! When normally it's such a townread from me when someone lurks in the background!

I appreciate that even in this alignment scrying tense time, you two have made me giggle.

I mostly see marquis's lack of engagement as some kind of low attention span/ sick struggles thing exclusively, but I would find it exceptionally amusing if it was all intentional.

Yeah I would too, I basically trust no one while playing. But yeah I don't think Marquis is faking shingles.

[Merlyn]

I was going to suggest the klick idea too, and I'll sheep cephrir.

I'm on my phone rn so I can't link the thread easily but here viewtopic.php?t=90488

[Merlyn]

No, seriously, let's do the klick strategy. Cephrir, elpis, , are you in?

[Merlyn]

Yes I think it's the best way forward if we have a townread we feel confident about

I don't have a read like that right now but maybe I can get there with some review

I'm effectively VLA until tuesday

You're my choice for townread to sheep

[Merlyn]

Also we should probably all claim

Yeah, I agree, there's nothing to lose at this point. I'm VT

[Merlyn]

I did see that you and Ceph are real life friends, and I can see that being a thing town!you would think.

And for that matter I think Ceph is thinking it about you

. But I'm just thinking that in a game where two people literally have to deceive to win, if one of you got a red PM you'd have no choice but to try to fool the other.

When I said this to Elpis, I meant I felt that you were town, thinking you had a pretty good read on them because you're friends irl.

[Merlyn]

Oh no pressure

lol. I don't know a better alternative. I don't think Andante or myself could be the most town read. Marquis is being replaced. And I think Elpis is scum. So, it's you buddy!

[Merlyn]

No, seriously, let's do the klick strategy. Cephrir, elpis, , are you in?

I will trust Cephy's judgement, if that is the best route to town victory, but I am nervous about it.

I mean, you seem really dubious, but I notice you're not using this time to show an alternative and build a case against someone.

[Merlyn]

I don't care if yall want to do this "klick thing" or whatever, but I'm voting who I want, I hate how we just started the day and merlyn/elpis are basically like "let's give ceph our votes!!" and that's that... like yall?? more concerned about tossing your vote to someone else than voicing your actual reads?

Yes I understand that, but I hate how they were both like “yeah! ceph has my vote!!” and like, that was that… no concern whatsoever here??? like obviously I’ll listen to who people want to vote/not vote whoever I want right now.. but I hate this idea of throwing hands up like “not my problem!!!” like, if we’re right today, we literally still have tomorrow, and if this is just “we voted scum out cause ceph said so” we have nothing to go on tomorrow

If only there was a a thread explaining the 'klick' thing that you could read called and someone linked for you, they might have answered some of these questions!

Let me give you a small spoiler from it: the people most likely to squirm at this are scum. I think that Elpis knows that, which is why he agreed but registered great reluctance. And now here you are.

If you are town, Andante, you could at least learn what the idea you plan to shoot down is instead of starting to shout about WHY WOULD ANYONE GIVE UP THEIR VOTES. Like, the thread is called 'When to give up your vote'.

like, sorry not sorry yall, I'm losing interest in this real fast, I know I'm town, I was pretty set on ethel, they flipped town, I was pretty set on a gimli/marquis team yesterday, I'm alive now, so I know that ain't right, unless it is and scum wants me to second guess it, ahhhh

I genuinely don't feel like doing anything till Marquis 2.0 shows up

This kind of stuff does not give me confidence I should walk away from the idea because you don't like it, you know?

[Merlyn]

Cephrir- my read was town before the claim, and I don't see any reason to think he's scum faking a claim now. Like, what would scum gain from that claim? The only crumb I noticed was the 'doggy' one and I knew you meant to do something with Andante but yeah....if Andante is scum they didn't bite. Too smart, or is actually town?
My single issue with Cephrir was a very early post he made where I thought it was weird he was calling attention to a breadcrumb- I thought you were never supposed to do that. But I do get the explanation that since neighbors don't know their alignment (which I also didn't know till I was told), it wouldn't make a difference. With that cleared he was my only clear choice for town. Some of it is a gut thing- I feel like I read genuine frustration in his posts. When I realized how many wagons leading to town kills he was on, I had to decide if he was the boldest scum out there, or if he was genuinely scum hunting in all the wrong places. I started thinking that it would make sense for him to be so frustrated and also to keep missing if there was someone obvious he was accidentally blind to. And that made me start focusing on Elpis, bc a real life friend could make a great blind spot.

Elpis- I think Elpis has done a masterful job of being active, seeming to be a big contributor throughout the game...but when I started looking for what those contributions are I noticed some things.

Ppl on the Enchant wagon that aren't conf town: Cephrir, Elpis, NorwegianboyEE. I think there has to be scum there. The idea that it was an all-town wagon is too much for me.

Well, I still think this.

Ppl on enchant wagon (frmerly nsg) not confirm town
Elpis

So, if Elpis isn't scum, that was an all-town wagon.

I'm going to point to 187 for more of my thoughts about Elpis, including their response and what I thought of it.
I'm fascinated that Elpis describes themselves as a very emotional person, too- they have no reason to lie about this, and I assume Cephrir could confirm. Because the posting style here is very measured, very calm. This would make sense to me as a new scum, the first time I was scum I thought and rethought and triple thought everything I said.
Their responses today only help me be confident that I'm onto something. This sudden suspecting of Cephrir the second Cephrir shows doubt? Reluctantly agreeing to give up a vote but not making a case elsewhere? Scum has to be somewhere and I think it's Elpis.
I'll post this wall of text before going on to Andante and Marquis

[Merlyn]

damn, the link above should be 1871. Please also see 1872.

[Merlyn]

So, this part makes me nervous, because I'm not as confident in these reads, but here's what I think:

Andante- I think they're town. The thing that stands out for me is how much they tried to slow the disaster of the of brian lim. Also, Andante has been right to question the people she questions (I can link to these if someone asks, but there's MANY), regardless of if they are town- she is good at pointing out play that is bad for town and pushing people on their crappy decisions. I also noted that Andante was the first to try and start a wagon on NM and others (yeah, including Elpis) kind of talked over her.

Marquis- this is what makes me nervous. Bc if Andante and Cephrir are my townreads, this makes Marquis scum. I have read their meager 65 posts three times at this point, there's nothing there. I don't think someone would fake shingles or anything, but things were slim even before that. I wish I felt more confident about this but I don't know how. I do have some ideas of how I think a replacement might come in if the slot is scum vs if they're town, so we'll see.

[Merlyn]

so then merlyn/gimli would be town, but why would town!gimli like instantly yeet brian??

Yeah I'm having trouble with gimli's hammer d3 too

It was crappy townplay, there's just no getting around it. I don't know what was going on with my predecessor tbh. I kind of think he may have dipped out of embarrassment.

[Merlyn]

So I read this, and I'm like, so you think I'm scum for hating the idea if closing my eyes and giving away my vote? like, hello nice to meet you, I'm andante.. someone who changes her vote every 2 seconds on day 1..

I think you're probably town and that's what irritating me about you blowing off the idea.

yeah I skimmed the klick thread, legit don't see how you and elpis going "ceph has my vote!!" then leaving ever helps town here? I'd rather have a sit down conversation and say why I agree/disagree with what's happening

Okay, so the theory here is that if town is in must lim or lose situation and there's not strong consensus about who scum is, town can band together and let one person who is the most believed town vote. Why? Because you at least know that they're not going to intentionally mislead town like scum will. Even better if someone agrees and backs out- only scum really have motivation for doing that. And if they go along with it, they're forced to vote even if we catch their partner. And that is how it helps a desperate town that that doesn't already have a good idea of where to go. But it's useless if we all don't agree.

But anyways your next posts feel like you know I flip town, and I'm not sure I love this feeling of "ANDANTE MAF!! But like, she town" that's the vibe I get from these posts, so makes me wonder if you thought I was an easy pocket, which is why I didn't die last night...

I'm no genius, but I'm not stupid enough to make back-to-back posts where I forgot that I called your scum in one. Also, who the hell would think you were an easy pocket???

[Merlyn]

I have a readslist, but I don't want to share it if we're no eliming- I'm hoping that one of two people I just can't see being partners will end up biting it.

I support a no elim- we're in dire straights here, and one less person to pick from benefits town.

VOTE: no elimination

This post, Can I hear more on these 2 people?

Yeah, I can't see Elpis and Cephrir being partners.

[Merlyn]

It would tell me who was definitely town, and then I'd have a better clue to what I think about the survivor.

[Merlyn]

My thinking was if elpis died then I was looking at this game completely wrong and I would have suspected you more as someone who had been fooling elpis. And if you died I would have rethought my position on elpis because that would have been a poor choice for him, since you've been a supporter.

[Merlyn]

I think you're probably town and that's what irritating me about you blowing off the idea.

I mean, I'm not exactly blowing it off, I'm just not comfortable in this game going "I am 100% confident X is town" I was 100% confident ethel was scum, 100% confident scum in neighbors, we see how that turned out, so like, sorry not sorry?? not sure what's confusing about why I hate the idea of "here have my vote" "ok byeee I don't care to make reads any more!!"

Okay, so the theory here is that if town is in must lim or lose situation and there's not strong consensus about who scum is, town can band together and let one person who is the most believed town vote. Why? Because you at least know that they're not going to intentionally mislead town like scum will. Even better if someone agrees and backs out- only scum really have motivation for doing that. And if they go along with it, they're forced to vote even if we catch their partner. And that is how it helps a desperate town that that doesn't already have a good idea of where to go. But it's useless if we all don't agree.

I mean, you're saying you want me to follow in yours and elpis's footsteps? "Ok ceph! you have my vote! this is all on you! byeeee" yeah no. dude, if we're right here, we still have to do this all over again tomorrow. if we all go "hey ceph, pick!" he picks right, then we're in this situation tomorrow with dead!ceph and no information to go off of since we all sheeped. sorry not sorry, I hate the idea. never have I done it in my 11 years of mafia, and I don't plan to start now

annnnd that's all I say on this klick method stuff, it's just this massive waste of time to talk about it

Yeah, if you're out, then it really is so I'll stop arguing for it.

[Merlyn]

I have a readslist, but I don't want to share it if we're no eliming- I'm hoping that one of two people I just can't see being partners will end up biting it.

I support a no elim- we're in dire straights here, and one less person to pick from benefits town.

VOTE: no elimination

This post, Can I hear more on these 2 people?

Yeah, I can't see Elpis and Cephrir being partners.

what? this feels like a really odd read, what about them made you think that?
also the whole "if we're no limming" like, what? it was 6 alive, we had no clue whatsoever, in what world would we lim there? we were waiting for Marquis to do something...

cause we sped through the past 2 lims... cough cough... your slot

Yup, I know, I know

What do you mean, you're confused about why I said 'IF' we're no eliming? When I said that, I was the second vote for it! It definitely didn't seem like some done deal at that point.

[Merlyn]

My thinking was if elpis died then I was looking at this game completely wrong and I would have suspected you more as someone who had been fooling elpis. And if you died I would have rethought my position on elpis because that would have been a poor choice for him, since you've been a supporter.

I still don't understand this thought process lol, you definitely made it seem like you had this solid plan going on

Like, a magical scum-busting plan that revolved around whether Cephrir or Elpis died? Yeah, I must have left that in one of my other games. I thought it would help me in my decision making process, and it would have, but that's all.

[Merlyn]

I wonder if there's any merit to trying to solve the whole game at once here

I hate doing that (preflipping) but perhaps it makes sense in the situation

Doesn't really work as well if one scum is marquis but

I mean, I feel like that makes the most sense, like, confident in a team here. but yeah MArquis slot makes that not really work. and like deadline for the day is just counting down as we wait for this replacement??

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I'm over this game, not gonna lie yall, I almost just went "yolo" and voted this marquis slot earlier, but was like, no... wait for this replacement.... this game is frustrating beyond belief

I honestly find this part the most exciting though, like when there's a chance to pull it back from the brink?

[Merlyn]

idk, people saying "if we no lim" feels like hinting towards "I'm ok if we lim!!" which will encourage people like me to go "yeah!!! let's do it!!!" and make me ignore all logic and yeah

You are not on to something here, it was really just a statement. I promise you did not catch me being scum with the word 'if' lol.

Merlyn, if we limmed yesterday, who would you have been good with limming?

Elpis. How about you?

[Merlyn]

Sorry, that's a bummer. Okay, what's your case against Marquis? You actually played with him and I didn't really get a chance to. Even with a replacement, we probably won't get much play time with them so the most we'll all have to go on is probably still Marquis' posts.

[Merlyn]

You are not on to something here, it was really just a statement. I promise you did not catch me being scum with the word 'if' lol.

mhmm we shall see XD plus if I say it now, looks so much cooler if true, then post game I go "TOLD YALL!!!" hahahaha

Elpis. How about you?

I would've yeeted Marquis I think lol. ooh so elpis is your strongest sr? except it's really not feeling like that to me lol

Fair enough lol

Really? Because I'm pretty sure most of my posts are related to them in some way. who did you think was my strongest scumread?

[Merlyn]

I just don't get why we can't talk out reads here, see where people feel best about going, and go from there? like, it's essentially the same thing as this "1 person calls the shots" method yall seem to love, except here everyone is giving input... but again, 1/5 of the players are non existent right now..

yo, who's stopping you? I literally just asked for your read on Marquis.

[Merlyn]

Really? Because I'm pretty sure most of my posts are related to them in some way. who did you think was my strongest scumread?

mehh feels like you've just been talking about everyone, like "gotta leave my options open!!" I haven't felt you going in any one way particularly

I bet that if I go back and count 'em up, your feelings will not equal fact

[Merlyn]

also, idk how valid this is, but NM might have been helpful, the "scum talk about how scummy their slot is when they replace in" thing he tried to use on me, Merlyn has like talked nonstop about how scummy Gimli was, even the "probably repped out from embarrassment" like, Gimli was V/LA before repping out, probably didn't have time to deal with the SRs going his way, idk, that's a common theme I've been... not loving here, the "Gimli was scummy!!! but I'm town!!" like, am I just supposed to ignore the entirety of this slot? Gimli is the reason Brian instantly died, that day was maybe 12 hours.. I can't recall anything else from Gimli would have to reread, but I'm kinda back to thinking about all this "my slot was scummy you should sr me" and like, from the moment you repped in it was like "HERE IS MAXIMUM EFFORT" and today is all "I HAVE CONFIDENCE IN THIS STRAT" like, you say elpis is your top SR, you know Ceph TRs Elpis, and you give Ceph your vote???

Are you saying...you're taking advice from the confirmed scum on how to hunt his fellow scum? Follow your own logic here for a second. You're saying that you're town, and NM was wrong to try and use the 'scum talk about how scummy their slot is when they replace in'. You, however, will be right to try and use the same argument against me.

It would be insane for me not not acknowledge how bad gimli made our slot look. Every time I have acknowledged it is because someone was commenting on it and I don't know how ignoring it makes me look more town.

I'm here to play, I think it's fun, I put in maximum effort in every game I do. The idea that I would be more tr by you if I had come in and been a little quieter doesn't sound true to me. Gimil looked bad, so with that lens you're viewing everything I say tainted by that. That's why you're trying to argue with me about what the word 'if' meant when I said it.

[Merlyn]

Hey @MOD? Is the day still ending in 4 days? Or is there a pause for the replacement?

[Merlyn]

Days
- 14 day deadlines.

There's no way we have a 4 day deadline right now

The last votecount I can find is page 75 pagetop, and I think maybe the timer is from the previous day?

[Merlyn]

based on how merlyn has been playing, I don't think I believe Merlyn genuinely thought this was the "most recent vc" like, you trying to rush us into voting??

This is the funniest thing anyone said about me on the forum so far- my evil plan to TRICK THREE PEOPLE FOR FOUR REAL LIFE DAYS to rush a vote. What could have gone wrong, how did you see through this?!

[Merlyn]

Feel free to keep building a case against me/my slot, that's what the game is about. I'm not ignoring you, but I don't think there's anything I can say that will make you change your mind if you decide I'm scum, so I don't know that there's much point filling another page or two responding to them like I did yesterday.

[Merlyn]

oh damn, congrats on graduating!! Good luck on the finals

[Merlyn]

From what I have been able to read in the last few pages I have some suspicions of Merlyn who seems to be more invested in defensive posting than solving or replying to Andante, which I think is behavior that a mafia player who needs to only survive and not solve correctly would engage in. This is a shallow read and I may change my mind after reading more but I feel obligated to provide at least something to kick the game back into action so… let’s do this after I am home!!

I do want to respond to this: All of town is in a need to survive situation, because we lose the game with one more mislim. Normally my responses to Andante's pushes would be to just ask her to vote me and be done with it, but I can't in this situation.

[Merlyn]

Here's a summary of my perspective, which is still up-to-date:

Spoiler: wall o'quotes

Cephrir- my read was town before the claim, and I don't see any reason to think he's scum faking a claim now. Like, what would scum gain from that claim? The only crumb I noticed was the 'doggy' one and I knew you meant to do something with Andante but yeah....if Andante is scum they didn't bite. Too smart, or is actually town?
My single issue with Cephrir was a very early post he made where I thought it was weird he was calling attention to a breadcrumb- I thought you were never supposed to do that. But I do get the explanation that since neighbors don't know their alignment (which I also didn't know till I was told), it wouldn't make a difference. With that cleared he was my only clear choice for town. Some of it is a gut thing- I feel like I read genuine frustration in his posts. When I realized how many wagons leading to town kills he was on, I had to decide if he was the boldest scum out there, or if he was genuinely scum hunting in all the wrong places. I started thinking that it would make sense for him to be so frustrated and also to keep missing if there was someone obvious he was accidentally blind to. And that made me start focusing on Elpis, bc a real life friend could make a great blind spot.

Elpis- I think Elpis has done a masterful job of being active, seeming to be a big contributor throughout the game...but when I started looking for what those contributions are I noticed some things.

Ppl on the Enchant wagon that aren't conf town: Cephrir, Elpis, NorwegianboyEE. I think there has to be scum there. The idea that it was an all-town wagon is too much for me.

Well, I still think this.

Ppl on enchant wagon (frmerly nsg) not confirm town
Elpis

So, if Elpis isn't scum, that was an all-town wagon.
I'm going to point to 187 for more of my thoughts about Elpis, including their response and what I thought of it.
I'm fascinated that Elpis describes themselves as a very emotional person, too- they have no reason to lie about this, and I assume Cephrir could confirm. Because the posting style here is very measured, very calm. This would make sense to me as a new scum, the first time I was scum I thought and rethought and triple thought everything I said.
Their responses today only help me be confident that I'm onto something. This sudden suspecting of Cephrir the second Cephrir shows doubt? Reluctantly agreeing to give up a vote but not making a case elsewhere? Scum has to be somewhere and I think it's Elpis.
I'll post this wall of text before going on to Andante and Marquis

damn, the link above should be 1871. Please also see 1872.

So, this part makes me nervous, because I'm not as confident in these reads, but here's what I think:

Andante- I think they're town. The thing that stands out for me is how much they tried to slow the disaster of the of brian lim. Also, Andante has been right to question the people she questions (I can link to these if someone asks, but there's MANY), regardless of if they are town- she is good at pointing out play that is bad for town and pushing people on their crappy decisions. I also noted that Andante was the first to try and start a wagon on NM and others (yeah, including Elpis) kind of talked over her.

Marquis- this is what makes me nervous. Bc if Andante and Cephrir are my townreads, this makes Marquis scum. I have read their meager 65 posts three times at this point, there's nothing there. I don't think someone would fake shingles or anything, but things were slim even before that. I wish I felt more confident about this but I don't know how. I do have some ideas of how I think a replacement might come in if the slot is scum vs if they're town, so we'll see.

[Merlyn]

From what I have been able to read in the last few pages I have some suspicions of Merlyn who seems to be more invested in defensive posting than solving or replying to Andante, which I think is behavior that a mafia player who needs to only survive and not solve correctly would engage in. This is a shallow read and I may change my mind after reading more but I feel obligated to provide at least something to kick the game back into action so… let’s do this after I am home!!

I do want to respond to this: All of town is in a need to survive situation, because we lose the game with one more mislim. Normally my responses to Andante's pushes would be to just ask her to vote me and be done with it, but I can't in this situation.

Hello again!

Yes, the town is in a survival position but they do not have the luxury to merely avoid elimination; they must eliminate correctly, and that mandates some amount of solving that the mafia does not need to do.

The post that made me curious to this was Andante's 2018 which, if I understand, is a point I feel might have gotten a town-you to reply to with more than you did: you wanted to give someone your vote but also were unsure of the vote. It's a worrisome dissonance, to not care to that degree. Or I suppose I would feel uncomfortable giving away my vote without absolute certainty in this situation? You chose to reply with 2019 and 2020 though. And from experience (which I have, but no one gets to know where it is from yet!) playing this way is often mafia's choice, as it's easier to snark than it is to logically rebut.

I'm not being snarky in 2020? I mean, 2019 is snark city but 2020 is completely serious.

I'm pretty new, so my experience in forum mafia is small, but so far for me snark is NAI. You're hinting you're an alt of a bigger account here though, so maybe I'm wrong. If you do think this is an indicator ('playing this way is often mafia's choice'), I'm curious that you brought up Andante's 2018 without comment given that it's, uh, a little snarky too.

[Merlyn]

Assuming Cephrir is not a mafia and Elpis is, it means that Elpis decided to slot their teammates together at the lower rungs, but just out of reach.

What other teammate are you referring to? We only know NM was scum.

[Merlyn]

Assuming Cephrir is not a mafia and Elpis is, it means that Elpis decided to slot their teammates together at the lower rungs, but just out of reach.

What other teammate are you referring to? We only know NM was scum.

I think they're pointing out that everyone else currently alive (aside from cephy) was middle-low on that list

Hey Elpis, you've said the Marquis slot has seemed scummy to you- could let them answer questions themselves?

[Merlyn]

To be fair, I think every post Andante ever makes has some snark hidden away in it

LOL yeah she has some snark power. I think this is the most times I've ever typed snark in a 24 hour period

[Merlyn]

Merlyn, the issue isn’t the snark!! It’s that it was snark alone! Andante’s 2020 was a question that I think warranted some amount of sincerity as an answer!! Because it is weird to suspect someone but also want to hand over your vote to them, given the amount of trust that should require in Elo.

But you didn’t respond with much more with defensiveness which as I said is a lot easier than it is to do so logically!

And even now it feels like you’re getting caught up on little details, which I am unsure if that is town behavior or not!!

Hmmm, I kind of feel like you're attempting to trap me in a 'damned if I do, damned if I don't' situation. I have to either allow you to say inconsistencies or be outright wrong, or I can respond and be 'caught up in the little details'.

Andante's 2019 is a question that was

already asked

(did I think Cephrir was scum) and I

already answered with sincerity

(I did not, and I'd said as much BEFORE the mislim). She is quoting a post I made in my first few hours in the game when I had only read to D1 where I didn't even call him scum and trying to use it to 'prove' otherwise.

I still like an answer to my question in 2038 please. And if you could let us know when you've caught up, I have some other questions too.

[Merlyn]

I am meant to take from all the exclamation points that you're shouting? Because it kind of seems like you're shouting.

[Merlyn]

@MOD- I will be V/LA from 5/7 to 5/9

- work trip to Boston, so I should still be able to check in every day, just not as often.

[Merlyn]

I also have a bit of an issue when it comes to Mafia, and life in general, where I am just bad at saying things people don't want to hear-- like claiming scum at people or such. People also tend to get really dramatic sometimes and exaggerate my claims, which is frustrating and makes me not want to make them.

I've been thinking about this for a bit, and I just wanted you to know that if it's me you suspect, it's okay to come after me and I won't take it personally. You're either doing your job as town or pretending to do the job as scum lol. I don't want to be mean to you or make you not have a fun game- you actually seem like a really nice person who I just happen to think got a red PM is all.

One of the biggest reasons you're on my radar is kind of because I haven't really seen you come after anybody. Scum!Elpis would be doing a good job sort of staying below everyone's radar- maybe catching a little suspicion here or there, but never enough to be someone's number one suspect.

[Merlyn]

I find it! Rather comforting to type like this, but if it is annoying I will try to stop!

Nope, now that I know you're not yelling it doesn't bother me.

The thing is, though, this is how Andante plays regardless of alignment (you don't have to take my word for it, read/skim some of her other games) . Any scumcase you make on her gamestyle isn't going to be a compelling one to me.

the fact that I think that his play this game would venture into absurdity if he was a mafia for the amount of mafia-siding he would have had to do with his pushes

This is a good point, and I think something similar- I noticed it when I started making notes of who was on what wagon.

I currently feel as if Elpis has not pushed much, if any, of an agenda this game and interfaced with Norwee in a way that made me feel as if they would not choose to kill him

Can you give me a concrete example of this? I'm asking because I have a very different take on that.

Just making sure-- the takeaway here is that norwe was killed because scum was under the impression that they would not be able to get them voted out?

That's not my takeaway. I've brought this before, but Cephrir was the one who should have been killed last night- he was much for widely townread than Norwee. Norwee should have been a good choice for scum to leave on the board. So, why did Cephrir live? (Obviously he could have lived bc he's scum, but that's not my belief) I think it's because someone he town reads is scum, so they thought he'd be a better choice to take to endgame. That is possibly Andante, but I've already said why I think it's Elpis. (oh, side note: I know Andante said she wasn't gonna vote Norwee no matter what, but if that's why he lived that's a bold choice- Andante is very changeable).

I just went and re-read the whole Ethel thing again- how is this not a kerfluffle over nothing? Andante didn't like that Ethel was voting her when Ethel read her as null. For some reason several people really focused on one the other part of the sentence ('she said she found you neither scummy NOR TOWN'!) and that was never really the point, Andante was questioning why place a vote on a null read. Also, Elpis, if you didn't understand it, I couldn't find where you asked Andante a question (but I fully admit I might have missed it) about it- I did see you post twice about how it was leaning town with you

As for the rest of what's going on...last time I played with Andante they came in swinging hard and being heavily defensive like they are now, and that time they were not just a town, but a power role. This reminds me a lot of that currently, so I am inclined to think that Andante is town, at least for the moment.

I think bbp is more likely scum than the other wagons

loved andante's entrances posts, don't really like her ethel push but like, I got it. you rep in you're highly suspected you get jumpy, I totally buy that was a real genuine and towny response from andante.

I don't think anything nsg did was scum indicative

I kinda hate firebringer and cephrir's treatment of the slot. of course I'm strong townreading firebringer but more on the fence with ceph.

I agree with most of this aside from the last part, though while what NSG has done hasn't been scummy, what she HASN'T done is. She's not really contributing to anything at all.

[Merlyn]

1262 is kind of an interesting post in light of our current knowledge that gimli/elpis/marquis was absolutely not 3 townies and in fact was imo probably two scum

1328
-this gimli townread seems... really really flimsy, no?
-remarkably certain about NM, but i guess they haven't seen him before
-this marquis townread (1330) also seems really flimsy. if you forgot your scumbuddy on purpose, props

atp ive concluded that andante is town and i'm just trying to find the team in the remaining places it can be

LOL what a post- oh, Gimli. I hope we get to talk about our slot together someday.

As far as I can tell Elpis got some shit for this post, but the general consensus was that it was okay bc they were new. It would be AMAZING if that was some sort of scumslip (forgetting Marquis), but...yeah. Even I don't think it is.

[Merlyn]

I don't really have a lot of motivation for this, sorry!!

This is going to be seen as a scumclaim, or that I have given up, but if the person I think is town does not agree with me on my scumread, I guess I default to voting the other one (Merlyn). Which will be seen as bussing. This is not very fun!! I am going to vote Merlyn sometime within the next day unless there is a case built on Elpis, but as it is I don't think that I can get there by myself after reading their iso!

I don't even know what to say to bs like this. I did build a case on Elpis, which you've ignored. If you were always going to default to sheeping Cephrir I don't know why you bothered to form your own opinions.

[Merlyn]

Huh, how am I ATE?

[Merlyn]

You, Miss, stole that pagetop.

[Merlyn]

I guess I can try to produce thoughts another human could understand

Or

I could wait and see if the votes cross 2 2 and then I can do whatever I want with no accountability

That seems super dangerous because if a single town votes the wrong person that's an instant loss, right?

We're essentially already in the super dangerous situation: if town places a vote and is wrong, game over. Scum either show up and vote or switch their votes, kaboom.

It's no more dangerous than the situation were already in but yes

The situation I am anticipating is one where you and peregrine vote for merlyn while merlyn and andante vote for peregrine

If that does not end the game, I will know for fact what I already believe to be true-- that the scum are andante/merlyn, you/peregrine or merlyn/peregrine

Cephrir, are you planning on waiting to see how the rest of the votes go, then?

[Merlyn]

ok but, merlyn is confirmed scum right now. like, there is no way for merlyn to be town unless the scum team is exactly you and me based on the votes. do you see that?

This is very clever. I love it tbh


VOTE: Elpis.

[Merlyn]

Beautiful end game Andante and Elpis! Great game all three of you!! I was only here part of the game, but it was so much fun.

Thanks Cat Scratch, A+ modding!

[Merlyn]

I can't wait to see that scum PT

[Merlyn]

You know what though, Cephrir, I don't know if would have landed on Andante in the endgame even if we had gotten Elpis. I was leaning towards Peregrine

[Merlyn]

Elpis! You are great, and I hope we get to play together again!!

P-Edit: I think you played it beautifully, perfect answers really!

[Merlyn]

Elpis! You are great, and I hope we get to play together again!!

P-Edit: I think you played it beautifully, perfect answers really!

Aww, thank you, I really appreciate it! It's been really funky because I've only done two games now and both have been on scum side-- I genuine think playing town is gonna be incredibly difficult and I will be lost, haha

Hahahaha, I was scum in my first and town in my second and I did complain that it was so much harder without the answer sheet lmao! But seriously, JUST DO WHAT YOU DID HERE. You'll do great

[Merlyn]

I definitely panicked at the marquis and gimli replacements lol, I was like "ELPIS... WE'RE DOOMED" merlyn, peregrine, yall did great!! definitely tough to rep in at the end like that

Andante, you were a force to be reckoned with!! Your gameplay as scum or town is exactly the same, that's incredible.

[Merlyn]

Good game!!

Peregrine, if only we had learned to trust one another

Are you gonna tell us your other identity, BTW?