open 894: near vanilla (game over)

[T3]

VOTE: JupiterXV

You know what you did.

[T3]

VOTE: Bellaphant

[T3]

Is it bad to already have a sr?

[T3]

Is it bad to already have a sr?

bella?

Yeah. I mean, I guess I could explain why but it’s pretty obvious.

[T3]

may i inquire why you scumread bella?

"Is it bad to already have a tr" indicates to me that Bella has a degree of self-consciousness and feels the need to ask permission from the thread to express her thoughts.

[T3]

Oh yeah? I'm actually getting slight scum pings from T3

Go on.

Is it bad to already have a sr?

may i inquire why you scumread bella?

"Is it bad to already have a tr" indicates to me that Bella has a degree of self-consciousness and feels the need to ask permission from the thread to express her thoughts.

I feel like the spirit behind the "is it bad to already have a SR?" is very slightly um
polemical? accusatory for the sake of stating a hot take?

It reads slightly forced

It was a little forced - I wanted to start discussion.

[T3]

I'd find it less scummy if they'd asked me who, or why, or... anything but draw a conclusion based on something nai for me

Am I supposed to know your meta? I’ve played with you maybe twice before.

[T3]

Let me put it this way: In a vacuum, statements like “Is it bad to have a tr this early” are >rand scummy. Obviously there are factors that may affect said vacuum, but as a general rule, your statement is more likely to come from scum. Also, I’d be willing to bet that the townread you, if town, have, isn’t particularly deep and is just a general meta/viberead. I

could

but I guess I didn’t really feel the need to. Does that make sense?

[T3]

I’d be willing to bet that the townread you, if town, have, isn’t particularly deep and is just a general meta/viberead.

The caveat here is that I only took the fact that Bella’s read is likely not deep into full consideration when I was making this above post. So, if you really wanted to reach for a read on me, you could say that I have a lack of townie inquisitiveness because I didn’t ask you who your townread is. However, I think I have adequately explained why I immediately came to the conclusion that your post was weakly scummy.

[T3]

T3 is probably town.

Curious to hear why you think so

Trying to jumpstart discussion in RVS, even if on a fairly reachy basis, feels fairly townie to me. In general I think scum are more likely to wait for other people to start pushing wagons rather than try to jumpstart one themselves. I also think the reachiness of it is actually +town since I feel like scum would probably be angling for a good first impression here.

I appreciate the reply! I think I disagree with most of this though lol

As both alignments I usually try to reach to start discussion. You modded that Estonia Micro Normal - I believe the one in which I figured out that ceejay and Eira were Masons, in which I was scum and did the same.

[T3]

T3 is probably town.

Curious to hear why you think so

Trying to jumpstart discussion in RVS, even if on a fairly reachy basis, feels fairly townie to me. In general I think scum are more likely to wait for other people to start pushing wagons rather than try to jumpstart one themselves. I also think the reachiness of it is actually +town since I feel like scum would probably be angling for a good first impression here.

I appreciate the reply! I think I disagree with most of this though lol

As both alignments I usually try to reach to start discussion. You modded that Estonia Micro Normal - I believe the one in which I figured out that ceejay and Eira were Masons, in which I was scum and did the same.

Excuse me

Sir
You just called my magnum opus "Estonia Micro Normal"
I really want that to be intentional

Oh wait, it was Southern France, the Estonia one was a newbie that fferyllt modded lol

[T3]

Aisa

Why is T3's 15 bad vs no comment on Bella's 13?

I don't want to answer for Aisa but I think that because my statement in 15 was intended to play on Bella's statement in 13, my 15 could appear to be more abrasive, in a sense.

[T3]

My feeling is that Bella's lack of disclosure on the tr itself after being challenged reads as scum. Initial post could be an attempt on getting a foot in first with an easy read to present with towny appearance, coupled with the openness of Bella's #41 leaving ambiguity in the conversation from T3's #26.

What differentiates Bella from being town and having a genuine read on someone and then being playful in 41 from Bella being scum and having a fake read on someone?

[T3]

disagree! i haven't been able to fully play a game in a while so i might be wrong on this, but i don't think self-consciousness is inherently scummy but tbf i don't know what general scum meta on this site is & how bella plays in specific. i mean i tend to be pretty self-conscious regardless of my alignment due to overthinking a lot of things, and i know some other people who are more self-conscious as town and more confident as scum. i think people who are more unfamilliar with scum positions tend to be more self-conscious, and those who are more familiar tend to be less self-conscious, actually. and since bella's been on this site a while, i'd assume they've played scum roles a number of times.
this is actually rather anecdotal but i have fun in scum positions but i've only played a non-town role maybe... three times? and so i'm absolutely incredibly VERY self-conscious of what i'm posting and very aware of every minute detail, more than i would be as town
anyways

As I said before: In a vacuum that post is objectively more likely to come from scum than town, but there are factors such as personality and experience that may affect that vacuum. Also, I wanted to start discussion. If I go ahead and say that "this post from Bella is completely NAI" then there's nothing to discuss, is there!

that being said, i'll pose a question. if bella was new to the site do you think this post of hers would be more or less scummy?

If Bella was new to the site then that post would definitely be more scummy.

Why did you ask this question?

[T3]

i think what's AI is why they're starting a wagon, like trying to figure out the reason / motivation behind it

Would the motivation for me starting a wagon not be that the game's discussion starts rolling? It doesn't seem like you're interpreting OWER's post correctly.

[T3]

Yeah that's true, I'm not even sure what I thought Jupiter was saying.

[T3]

But I guess it's basically impossible to tell whether someone trying to start early discussion is doing it from a place to look town or scum, unless they're being super LAMIST. I don't know if I'm right. I don't think this matters anyways.

[T3]

If Bella was new to the site then that post would definitely be more scummy.

Why did you ask this question?

wondering if you would see it differently if the person posting it was different in some manner, i think, if that makes sense. kinda hard to explain but your take on bella seems more like of a... sort of, more theory-based scumread? like less on what bella did and more like "this post is traditionally very _ or _"
what do you feel about bella now? still scum? or nah

Null, maybe. a little scummy

[T3]

UNVOTE: Kurtapika

Im new to the game so struggling to get involved, but whilst weak my initial suspicions would be for T3.

I’ve found his posts to be the most defensive. Particularly 39.

I also don’t like 63. I don’t like that he answered for Asia, whilst saying not to answer for her. Asia has been prodding slightly at T3 and I’m conscious whether answering for her was almost doing her a favour to get her off his back. Almost a ‘look im on your side’.

This read could be completely off, but I’d be curious to know peoples thoughts.

In 39 I wasn't being defensive because in what I was responding to, there wasn't anything for me to be defensive about. My tone in that post was rather calling Bella slightly absurd for assuming that I knew her personality, given that I have never played with her before.


In 63, I

guess

what you're saying could be true. I suppose the best response I have is that people usually just don't do things like that.

[T3]

that being said, i'll pose a question. if bella was new to the site do you think this post of hers would be more or less scummy?

If Bella was new to the site then that post would definitely be more scummy.

Why?

Just statistically.

[T3]

It isnt, just skimmed them. So it’s a joke? Or not?

Lol it's just a joke.

[T3]

In 63, I

guess

what you're saying could be true. I suppose the best response I have is that people usually just don't do things like that.

Wouldn't the best response be that you, specifically, would not do things like that? Is the behavior that Project mentioned something you might consider if you were scum?

I suppose so? Firstly, I don’t think that a post like I made would have the effect that Project says that scum would desire. Secondly, I don’t think that I’ve ever seen scum actually do something similar to get that effect. However, I’m speaking from my subjective experience.

[T3]

reading now
disliking t3,, doesn’t read “forced”, reads “planned” with the “>rand scummy”, don’t think that’s the case,, would like to see proof if we wanna go there, I’m petty
project, to me, reads newbtown)
ower towny too, seems believable

that being said, i'll pose a question. if bella was new to the site do you think this post of hers would be more or less scummy?

If Bella was new to the site then that post would definitely be more scummy.

Why?

Just statistically.

nahhh xD

VOTE: t3

Instead of randomly checking my phone 30 times for 2-minute periods with my attention split between 3 games, I’m instead playing this game by looking at it for 30-minute periods on my computer in which I can actually think about stuff. If my posts sound unnatural and forced, it’s because they are.

[T3]

Actually I might be misunderstanding your post but wdym by “planned?” Would that imply I’m scum with Bella?

[T3]

V/LA 36 hours

Don't have the time right now.

[T3]

“reads planned” meaning: posts read “planned”, i.e: will make this push, and if asked reasoning, I’ll say this
angle itself feels untrue (scum more likely to say said phrase), imo at least,, phrase doesn’t help scum + no stats/evidence
would not think of t3s content on my own (as town), without intent

Does it matter whether the angle itself is true? I don't think you're correctly representing my post. I guess it was a little planned

[T3]

t3 are you caught up?

Not at all. I just saw a notification and responded to Nono.

[T3]

Titus town?

[T3]

Actually I shouldn't shamelessly prodge I should just

extend v/la till saturday evening

[T3]

Cross my heart, I will be useful then

[T3]

WHAT'S UP

I am ready to catch up and become a mafia weapon

[T3]

Spoiler: Some stuff up to page 10

UNVOTE: Kurtapika

Im new to the game so struggling to get involved, but whilst weak my initial suspicions would be for T3.

I’ve found his posts to be the most defensive. Particularly 39.

I also don’t like 63. I don’t like that he answered for Asia, whilst saying not to answer for her. Asia has been prodding slightly at T3 and I’m conscious whether answering for her was almost doing her a favour to get her off his back. Almost a ‘look im on your side’.

This read could be completely off, but I’d be curious to know peoples thoughts.

I feel Kurtapika is awkward and distant.

Don't like how Titus responded to Project here when Project didn't mention Kurpitaka at all, feels like she's trying to convince him.

Mainly vibes tbh, it's page one.

I can't argue with vibes but I'm a little surprised your vibe-o-meter picked up on that post and not the several other jokes on that page

Weird shade

VOTE: t3

Why is T3 scum fypov?

I am voting T3 because aside from their initial light push on Bellaphant, there isn't much content in his 24 or so posts.

I feel that T3's primary motivation in this game thus far has been to get people to town read him rather than to find scum or even genuinely push the game forward.

• I dislike that T3 immediately undercuts the strength of his push on Bellaphant with 38 and calling it "weakly scummy" in 45.
  
• Aside from that one read, T3 hasn't put forth a single other stance or thought about the game in terms of people's alignments.
  
• Instead, his posts consist entirely of questions (that haven't gone anywhere yet) or explain-y self-defense posts.

For these reasons it feels like T3's start to the game has been more performative than not and I would think town!T3 would have outed some more reads by this point in the game with how clearly active he's been.

That's fair-ish? In my recent scumgames I've been pushing players a lot more than I used to, in my last scumgame I directed 3 mislims. As town I say I'd probably provide more passive commentary - in fact did you not literally just mod Secrets of the Anukat Topaz, where all I did the entire game was provide passive commentary aside from the fact that I pushed camel.

was reading this post and i went. wow :O this is exactly what i THOUGHT but i couldn't put it into words and here it is!!! i don't townread t3 much but this is kind of what i meant by talking about motivation and whatnot earlier. t3 wants to start talking because they: (choose one or the other) feel pressure to solve as town / feel pressure to be townread as scum. they push bella because they: think this post from bella is a bit off / want to make an opportunistic push
okay this doesn't make sense but i guess what the slashes indicate are that these are different motivations for town/scum respectively. i guess what i'm trying to articulate that there's two different worlds (and while there may be many more reasons!) and to me i think both make sense! it's just that i think i sliightly? favor the town world over the scum world in likeliness.
i don't think the push is articulated well. i now understand that maybe bella's "oh i have a townread!" post doesn't do much to start discussion and can thus be seen as scummy, but t3's push at the time seemed a tad bit reachy even if they seemed genuine about it. i think that scum t3 is likely, but town t3 is more likely because imho scum has no reason to be going around and picking fights, especially not when the game has just started. if i were in t3's position (assuming town bella scum t3) i would've just not posted that at all LOL. sure, t3 could've done all of that just to get a roundabout town read but honestly wifom is lame occam's razor for the win and what is simplest is that (at least in theory) scum wants to be present but not contentious, they want to be townread and i don't think scum t3 goes into this knowing it will get them widely scumread.
sorry this is a bit sheepy i think but wow reading that post was kind of like. in the nicest way possible it's kinda like a gateway drug i read it and i was like. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT IVE BEEN THHINKING. gently mindmelds(correct word??? idk) at you

Jupiter is town 100% for this, I would be very surprised if this is in their scumrange at all.

I think T3 is capable of sparking discussion much more concretely and usefully as town which is why his claim of wanting to spark discussion reads as performative to me

Again, did you not just mod Secrets of the Aunkat Topaz?

Eh, I just really dislike the directions of their posts: it's very negative and feels quite agenda driven.

Negative is just a personality trait of his I'd say, I'm not seeing the agenda driven part but I remember in Backup6 I scumread town!Dannflor mainly because I thought that there was no way he actually believed the stuff he was saying.

honestly it's pretty interesting considering how you view them as performative- could you explain more on that point? i think their straightforwardness reads as a bit more genuine to me imo. the lack of content is actually a bit of a red flag that i hadn't exactly noticed, though i suppose it could be excused by the fact that people have generally been pushing them for a handful of pages and maybe this is to be expected?

it can mostly be distilled to the fact that T3's espoused motivation for his opening posts was to "spark discussion," presumably to get the game going and find scum

basically all of his posts after that point was focused on self defense or other contentless questioning

I think T3 is capable of sparking discussion much more concretely and usefully as town which is why his claim of wanting to spark discussion reads as performative to me

I like this case and I'd be interested to see what T3 has to say about it
Alternatively if replying directly to Dann's case is boring I'd be interested in T3's reads so far

VOTE: T3 why not

At that time I was thinking about a scumread on Black and a scumread on Aisa. I didn't have any townreads, although Ower was kinda lean town. I'm townreading Ower a bit more now after my mindmeld with him in 211. Titus is also scummy

[T3]

To say a bit more about my logic behind the vote:

that being said, i'll pose a question. if bella was new to the site do you think this post of hers would be more or less scummy?

If Bella was new to the site then that post would definitely be more scummy.

Why?

Just statistically.

Thinking back on it this post felt a bit like it could be shutting down discussion. I remember not liking it at the time, for whatever reason I didn't call it out back then

How would that be shutting down discussion when it was completely irrelevant to the game at that point???

[T3]

T3's posting so far, on the other hand, actively feels like something that could come from scum

Terrible justification and opportunism VOTE: Aisa

[T3]

To say a bit more about my logic behind the vote:

that being said, i'll pose a question. if bella was new to the site do you think this post of hers would be more or less scummy?

If Bella was new to the site then that post would definitely be more scummy.

Why?

Just statistically.

Thinking back on it this post felt a bit like it could be shutting down discussion. I remember not liking it at the time, for whatever reason I didn't call it out back then

To elaborate on why this post from Aisa doesn't make sense: the context of my post where I said "just statistically" was Jupiter asking me a question about whether Bella being new or not new to the site would make that post more scummy or not. It was a question about mafia theory and it had no relevance to the actual game at hand. There would be no scum motivation whatsoever to shut down discussion about the question because the truthfulness of my answer would have no bearing whatsoever on the game, and I think that should be pretty obvious. Aisa feels the need to justify a vote on me that is just her sheeping the consensus, and her justification for voting is completely made-up.

[T3]

My preferred lim for today is Skygazer but to be frank with a little less than 3 days left I don't think I could convince people to get on that wagon.

I'm not fully caught up yet but would you mind summarizing your case on Skygazer?

[T3]

My main issue with T3 is that it felt like he had solving energy until he got wagoned and then he went V/LA for 5 days. It's very possible he was just busy but I can't help but be paranoid that it might have been an attempt to deflate the pressure. I don't really like his posting from over the weekend and I just get the vibe that he's trying to start any counterwagon possible with the attack on Aisa and then asking OWER to explain his Skygazer read in 923. If I were town in T3's shoes I would be trying a lot harder here

i finished a game not too long ago where T3 and i were scum together and i don't remember him doing this; he seemed quite comfy as scum. but i'm not sure how much pressure he had on him.

In the past as both alignments when I've gotten significant pressure I've just ghosted - the reason why I ghosted after being pushed by Dannflor in the first place was because i was genuinely busy IRL.

[T3]

viewtopic.php?t=91199&user_select%5B%5D=35441
viewtopic.php?p=13778433&f=83&t=90942&u ... #p13778433
These were my past 2 scumgames before Booneytoonz, when I was legitimately pushed in both of those games I just completely ghosted.

Re:above: Fair - fwiw, in Open 835 I had fight the urge not to ghost.

The notion that I ghosted because of Dannflor's early push is bad though, because in Booneytoonz I was pushed by Gamma and Gimli and easily weathered the pressure.

[T3]

"you're scum because you voted me" like he's doing with Aisa.

I don't think I'm doing that? I've explained my reasoning and I'm not sure what's wrong with said reasoning.

[T3]

Re:above: Fair - fwiw, in Open 835 I had fight the urge not to ghost.

If you are town can you fight that urge and start doing stuff?

How caught up are you and what do your reads look like?

I'm on page 31

{Black, Dannflor}
{Knott, shaddow, Jupiter}
{Nono, OWER}
{Kurta, Sky, Bella} ------- NULL
{Titus}
{Project}
{Aisa}

[T3]

why is black your top town read?

I really liked her vote in 512 and especially that it wasn't LAMIST. I initially thought that a large number of Black's reads were weird and agenda-y but when I looked at Backup6 I didn't get that sense at all.

[T3]

why is black your top town read?

I really liked her vote in 512 and especially that it wasn't LAMIST. I initially thought that a large number of Black's reads were weird and agenda-y but when I looked at Backup6 I didn't get that sense at all.

That's it? One vote that doesn't feel LAMIST and a meta read?

More specifically I found it towny because it came after 506. The two scum motivations for voting shaddow in 512 that I can think of would be that either you want to pocket Dannflor, or shaddow is town and you want an excuse to vote him. The first motivation is possible, but I think if you were scum you would have been more LAMIST there as it is possible, if not probable, that Dannflor won't understand or think about the fact that his 506 could have been the catalyst for your shaddow vote. The second motivation is also possible, but if you were thinking about voting shaddow, you could have voted him before Dannflor made 506. In other words, to vote shaddow, you wouldn't have needed Dannflor's approval in the first place.

[T3]

Of course, I could be completely wrong that you voted shaddow in 512 because of Dannflor's 506, but that's my best inference.

[T3]

My preferred lim for today is Skygazer but to be frank with a little less than 3 days left I don't think I could convince people to get on that wagon.

I'm not fully caught up yet but would you mind summarizing your case on Skygazer?

His reaction to Project and others push felt like scum caught for the wrong reasons, his defenses mostly stemming from appeals to ridicule, overly simplifying the others points, and WIFOM-y self-meta.

Going back to your original case in 706 I find this very interesting.

The way you go about it feels as though you find the arguments both absurd but also are genuinely concerned about them, which is where I derive the "caught for wrong reasons" conclusion from.

Because when Elements scumread Skygazer for her reads being fake, she responded with this:

Do you have any actual scum reads?

lol. you are an actual scum read but nice discredit

VOTE: sky

aw i feel like i haven't been voted in at least 100 pages

streak broken

[T3]

Skygazer was scum in the above game btw, this was Booneytoonz.

[T3]

VOTE: Skygazer

Really not liking this push right after she admitted that it's easy for her to come up with scumreads as scum

skygazer does nothing: oh my god shes not doing anything!!

skygazer starts doing stuff in reaction to being attacked for doing nothing: oh my god she's making up reads!!

Stuff like this from Skygazer in this game definitely has something of an echo to Booneytoonz

[T3]

i will have it be known that i don't really wanna vote sky today unless someone manages to convince me

Why?

[T3]

i will have it be known that i don't really wanna vote sky today unless someone manages to convince me

Why?

just don't think she's scum

Vibes? Gut? What?

[T3]

T3, why are you scumreading me?

I noticed that you hyperfocused on Kurtapika earlier and rarely, if ever provided much commentary or reads on other players. Another thing I noticed was that you aren't doing VCA and that your reads are 'muted,' in a sense. You have your theory about me/Kurta/Black but you're only really going out and pushing Kurta. It seems very different to MBOS 13 when you were absolutely convinced that Norwee/Dwlee/me were scum - you really pushed us hard and you had more substantial reasoning than you do for me/Kurta/Black:
Subject: mini theme 2229: MBOS 13 schweppes' pulpy potions daya 5

The three of them are locktowning each other based on spacious reasoning. They don't interact organically.

[citation needed]

-Retti

For example,

NorwegianboyEE: The three of us aren't locktowning each other.
Also NorwegianboyEE: My PoE includes none of them. Titus is there though.

T3: We aren't hard defending each other.
Also T3: Puts me as lock scum for my reads.

Previously,

NorwegianboyEE: Dwlee, your read on Titus has no reason just tunneling.
Dwlee: So what?
NorwegianboyEE: That's ok you'll see Titus as town.

Later:

NoweiganboyEE: It's Titus and Fairy Circle.

---

This is scum trying to chain us and/or vig me.

Your play here also differs from what I most recently saw of you in Secrets of the Anukat Topaz, in that game you, again, had very strong scumreads and awkwardly pushed those scumreads in a scummy way such that you eventually got voted out. As Dannflor remarked on earlier, your tone definitely feels slightly more relaxed here compared to your tone in Secrets of the Anukat Topaz, which came across to me as extremely wooden. This is a pretty weak point because when I spectated Datisi's University I found your tone as scum to transcend into an entirely different dimension of wooden.

I also strongly disliked your progression here:

I also believe kurtapika is largely a town driven wagon

Which makes the non existence of a counter wagon pretty weird

The nearest we’ve come is skygazer

T3 has been vla and the third won't use their limited cache to create a counter. They've played passively with their vote to try and get a counter going to no avail.

VOTE: T3

Between these two posts, the only thing that changed was Aisa saying that Kurta is town and OWER voting me. While you did say that Kurta not having English as a first language makes you think that he is townier, that doesn't address the bulk of your argument against Kurta so I don't buy that you unvoted because of a changed read. I also don't buy that you could have unvoted because the day was ending and the consensus was on me. At that point, there were still 48 hours left in the day, and while the momentum was on me, Kurta was the bigger wagon.

[T3]

VOTE: Titus

I feel better about Titus than Skygazer actually.

[T3]

That case is extremely weak-sauce and I think the T3/Black partner theory gains more merit by the post.

This makes no sense. If Black and I were partners we both could have gotten away with voting Skygazer and no one would have batted an eye. If I'm scum, why do I push Titus? And why does my partner, Black, feel the need to sheep my case on Titus when again, she could have just voted Skygazer and been done with it?

[T3]

This only works in a world where the team is exactly T3/Black/Skygazer and we desperately need to get the pressure off one of us.

[T3]

I've seen Titus have reads exactly like this as town, though, so your meta case is weaksauce

I'm saying that I've seen her have weird reads about partnerships as town before, but in those games she substantially pushed those partnerships but in this game she isn't.

[T3]

Speaking of 915, the logic here doesn't really track. You're willing to sheep Titus on T3 but she's pushing him based mainly on associations with Kurta, but in this post you say Kurta is probably a mislim?

I specifically said I was sheeping Titus

AND

Dannflor in that post. You're blatantly misrepping me now.

Yes, Titus and Dannflor. This means that there were at least some parts of her case on me that you agreed with. However, she only ever claims that I'm scum because I'm partnered with Kurta. You yourself in that same post said that "Kurta is probably just a mislim." So this doesn't track at all.

[T3]

Like, why are you saying "I'm sheeping Titus and Dannflor" when in reality you're only actually sheeping Dannflor

[T3]

She's not willing to reconsider her read at all or even solve outside of the read.

Titus being stubborn feels exactly like how it was when I played with her the two other times I did so. Granted both of those times were 3 years ago, so perhaps my meta is a bit out of date. But Titus's post ring to me more like tunneled/confident town rather than agenda-pushing maf.

Speaking of 915, the logic here doesn't really track. You're willing to sheep Titus on T3 but she's pushing him based mainly on associations with Kurta, but in this post you say Kurta is probably a mislim?

I specifically said I was sheeping Titus

AND

Dannflor in that post. You're blatantly misrepping me now.

Yes, Titus and Dannflor. This means that there were at least some parts of her case on me that you agreed with. However, she only ever claims that I'm scum because I'm partnered with Kurta. You yourself in that same post said that "Kurta is probably just a mislim." So this doesn't track at all.

Titus has clearly stated she thinks your scummy isolated from Kurtapika in 737 and 739. I said I was comfortable sheeping both Titus and Dann because they both were scumreading you and the momentum was clearly switching gears to start voting you instead of Kurtapika, a move I thought was wise given what both Dannflor and myself observed about the gamestate.

Sure, but she also provides no reasoning.

[T3]

Hmm. I think there's partner equity in Titus/OWER. OWER barely mentioned her at all before the wagon formed on her. The same goes for Titus --> OWER. They had one interaction with 140/152 that could have easily been staged

I thought so too but I'm not quite sure, mainly because I don't know if OWER would treat Titus that way in the whole sheep thing recently.

[T3]

Hmm. I think there's partner equity in Titus/OWER. OWER barely mentioned her at all before the wagon formed on her. The same goes for Titus --> OWER. They had one interaction with 140/152 that could have easily been staged

I thought so too but I'm not quite sure, mainly because I don't know if OWER would treat Titus that way in the whole sheep thing recently.

What do you mean?

I can't help but think of Mini Normal 2316 that just ended where OWER forgot to give reads on his scum buddy Shea until someone called him out on it. Then suddenly he was like "oh yeah Shea is town"

Tbh, working through the logic right now I don't quite know why. Maybe I'll be able to answer better tomorrow when I've had more than 3 hours of sleep. Your observation about Mini Normal 2316 is interesting though

[T3]

That case is extremely weak-sauce and I think the T3/Black partner theory gains more merit by the post.

This makes no sense. If Black and I were partners we both could have gotten away with voting Skygazer and no one would have batted an eye. If I'm scum, why do I push Titus? And why does my partner, Black, feel the need to sheep my case on Titus when again, she could have just voted Skygazer and been done with it?

I don't know why, because I can't see inside your heads. All I know is that the way your case on Titus is extremely weak, and feels disingenuous, like you're making up reasons to scumread a player that is popularly TR'd (or at least not considered suspicious by the majority), and that Black's sudden sheeping of you after expressing that "T3 makes the most sense here" on the literal page before this one is incredibly suspicious.

Most of all, I think if either you or Black were town here you'd simply ask me what I disagreed with in the case, and try to sell me on a Titus wagon further. Instead, Black asks a loaded question and you dance around with WIFOM-y "Why would I do this" questions. It doesn't feel like either of you are actually trying to engage me genuinely and you're instead simply trying to divert pressure.

I am most definitely trying to engage with you genuinely! If anything you're being disingenuous and not engaging properly given that you don't provide reasons why you disagree with my case, you just make a blanket statement that it's weak and bad. Am I supposed to read your mind? The notion that neither of us asked you why you disagreed with the case is a complete misrep too - Black asked you why you think Titus is town. Sure, that question is a bit loaded, but is it not basically the same as Black asking you why you disagree with our case?

[T3]

Wasn't the shift all the way back at post 800???

[T3]

The random suggestion that me and OutWorldER are scum is weird.

I find it a little weird too but I don't see why scum!Black does this at all. What is scum!Black's endgame here? Pocketing me?

[T3]

The random suggestion that me and OutWorldER are scum is weird.

I find it a little weird too but I don't see why scum!Black does this at all. What is scum!Black's endgame here? Pocketing me?

How is it weird if you said you thought it could be them too?

Never mind, for some reason I hallucinated you calling OWER/Titus a pair earlier than you actually did

[T3]

I hardclaim VT

VOTE: Skygazer

[T3]

I'm not even sure if Titus is scum at this point. Maybe I'm confbiased but she probably is

[T3]

Sorry I got busy. I probably still would have been limmed had I not got busy because I can't seem to go a single fucking game as town without being run up but w/e

[T3]

I hardclaim VT

VOTE: Skygazer

I'm not even sure if Titus is scum at this point. Maybe I'm confbiased but she probably is

If you think Titus is scum, why the vote on Sky instead?

Biggest wagon I guess. Maybe not the biggest but I'm more likely to stay alive voting Skygazer

[T3]

I will note however that T3 and Black largely haven't voted next to each other which is consistent with my usual VCA theory.

Have I not been inactive the entire game, and then when I voted you Black also voted you? How does this make any sense?

[T3]

What the fuck

[T3]

wtf was the point of at that titus stuff????

[T3]

It was a bus I guess??

[T3]

What the fuck

don't like this reaction all that much

ok

[T3]

ffs

[T3]

they just give off a salty vibe to me

Yeah I am salty because I was pocketed

[T3]

yeah and like... my reaction to the hammer was not "what the fuck" but rather "fuck yeah!!!"

Yeah and you wanted Black limmed I didn't I guess??? Whatever

[T3]

That's very interesting. I must reconsider Skygazer but my solve is likely right.

Overconfident tunnelers gonna overconfidently tunnel

[T3]

VOTE: Skygazer

[T3]

reskimmed T3's iso, and he doesn't seem at all worried about persuading Black that he's town, even after Black started pushing him. He did try to defend himself from other people SRing him, but the way he was acting with Black makes me think he wasn't at all worried about her read on him. so that further solidifies T3 as scum in my mind.

Oh come on. I defended myself from Aisa because she had an abjectly terrible and scummy argument and I defended myself from OWER for similar reasons. I defended myself from Black when I needed to:

"you're scum because you voted me" like he's doing with Aisa.

I don't think I'm doing that? I've explained my reasoning and I'm not sure what's wrong with said reasoning.

I suppose my tone might come off here as not entirely concerned with Black’s argument but that was because, I don’t know. I guess like, deep down I knew she had a somewhat valid point about me OMGUSing Aisa or at least I kind of knew that I was going for her harder than I should have due to annoyance at being wagoned.

[T3]

VOTE: Skygazer

are you scumreading me now? your reasoning yesterday was just survivalism, so is that still the case? or did something change?

Your case yesterday was incredibly bad faith and same today

[T3]

reskimmed T3's iso, and he doesn't seem at all worried about persuading Black that he's town, even after Black started pushing him. He did try to defend himself from other people SRing him, but the way he was acting with Black makes me think he wasn't at all worried about her read on him. so that further solidifies T3 as scum in my mind.

Oh come on. I defended myself from Aisa because she had an abjectly terrible and scummy argument and I defended myself from OWER for similar reasons. I defended myself from Black when I needed to:

"you're scum because you voted me" like he's doing with Aisa.

I don't think I'm doing that? I've explained my reasoning and I'm not sure what's wrong with said reasoning.

I suppose my tone might come off here as not entirely concerned with Black’s argument but that was because, I don’t know. I guess like, deep down I knew she had a somewhat valid point about me OMGUSing Aisa or at least I kind of knew that I was going for her harder than I should have due to annoyance at being wagoned.

The other time Black scumread me and explained her reasoning for it was because of subjective meta knowledge - she said that I am “more calculating” as town. How the hell am I supposed to respond to that???

[T3]

just not liking what I saw from T 3, and to be frank an outside edge to Sky...

You mean you like Skygazer's case? Why?

[T3]

VOTE: Skygazer

are you scumreading me now? your reasoning yesterday was just survivalism, so is that still the case? or did something change?

Your case yesterday was incredibly bad faith and same today

what is bad faith about it

Let me put it this way: I was 'salty' but you haven't differentiated my tone between "annoyed town" and "annoyed town." I was pretty annoyed that my strongest townread had just claimed scum and I dislike how you're construing my annoyance to mean that I'm scum, when there is an alternative, equally likely explanation.

[T3]

T3 was on the chopping block and both him and Black tried to setup a counter-wagon on Titus. Don't see a reason for Black to get off T3 if he's a mislim, and the sudden shift in reads suggest she was getting ready to bus but switched to try and counter momentum on the T3 wagon. Unless she was just trying to get Titus speed-limmed so she didn't have to deal with the NKA of night-killing her? "I'll deathtunnel Titus if T3 flips Town" feels like scum setting up a chain mislim. But why try to get Titus limmed off T3's case if you were setting up to lim Titus tommorow off a T3 mislim? Occam's Razor probably just says T3 is scum here.

I was sort of on the chopping block but was the momentum not on Skygazer at that point??? If the whole Titus push hadn't happened then if I'm scum we both could have just voted Skygazer and the day would have fizzled out there in all likelihood. As I said before, your theory about pushing the momentum off me on works when the team is me/Black/Skygazer.

[T3]

actually i want to try voting here for today

VOTE: Bellaphant

I reread her ISO during the night but she's still sitting at dead null for me.

[T3]

just not liking what I saw from T 3, and to be frank an outside edge to Sky...

You mean you like Skygazer's case? Why?

Where have you seriously challenged anyone?

Did I not, like, challenge Titus? And then Skygazer? It's a bit difficult to not be 'reactive' when my entire presence in the game has centered around me being the main wagon.

[T3]

actually i want to try voting here for today

VOTE: Bellaphant

camel's probably town, he has an 'anxiety' to use his vote which comes from town more often than not. Compared to Secrets of the Anukat Topaz this is like night and day.

[T3]

actually i want to try voting here for today

VOTE: Bellaphant

why?

black flip

i didn't iso black but i think i remember bellaphant like not deciding their read on black

which would've been like normal but the e-1 looks so bad to me

I'd expect a more thought-out and expansive case from scum!camel.

[T3]

VOTE: Skygazer

are you scumreading me now? your reasoning yesterday was just survivalism, so is that still the case? or did something change?

Your case yesterday was incredibly bad faith and same today

what is bad faith about it

Let me put it this way: I was 'salty' but you haven't differentiated my tone between "annoyed town" and "annoyed town." I was pretty annoyed that my strongest townread had just claimed scum and I dislike how you're construing my annoyance to mean that I'm scum, when there is an alternative, equally likely explanation.

i mean the severity of the reaction plays into it for me too. i feel like when i'm wrong i just go "oh whoops" and move on quickly because a W is a W. i think your reaction seems more appropriate as a "my team is in a really bad spot" reaction over a "i misread someone." i understand that town can get annoyed, but your annoyance here does not look town.

i also think that you think that i'm just the easiest counterwagon to push through, which is why you tossed out a blanket statement like "bad faith" rather than any actual points. you were open about the fact that you weren't scumreading me yesterday, and today the only thing tangible you've had against me was that you don't like my arguments against you because you think i should be reading your annoyance differently. so you're giving not-solving/defeated-scum vibes to me.

Fair? I suppose it was more that my Black read was a very strong read and I really felt like she was 'on my side' when she pushed Titus along with me. Plus as town, I rarely survive past Day 2 - in all my 30-ish VT games on site I have not survived to Elo in a single one - I genuinely just have never had the experience of a hard hard TR flipping scum while I'm still alive.

they just give off a salty vibe to me

Really? You've been calling me strong to hard scum since the end of the day because "muh vibes" - I just do not see how that can be strong enough to form that kind of read. And sure, you supported your read with interactions but these are just a post-hoc justifications for your reads that ignores many many other pretty clearly unpartnered interactions that Black and I had yesterday. Stuff like this:

reskimmed T3's iso, and he doesn't seem at all worried about persuading Black that he's town, even after Black started pushing him. He did try to defend himself from other people SRing him, but the way he was acting with Black makes me think he wasn't at all worried about her read on him. so that further solidifies T3 as scum in my mind.

doesn't consider the actual reasons for why I responded to Black in the way that I did.

[T3]

I was actually just looking at page 40 and I do have to say that T3's interactions with Black there are not a good look on him imo

If I was scum with Black we could have just voted Skygazer and we would have had a pretty good shot at saving me from the chopping block.

[T3]

T3, why can't you be scum with K? Is K town?

Am I town?

I genuinely do not think I have said a word about Kurta the entire game so honestly I see why someone might think I'm scum with him. I'm leaning town on him, during the night when I went through and looked at the receipts in 4 or 5 of his posts (nearly) everything checked out and was logical. I normally have much greater success with reading players like him by tracking their reads over a long period of time. On the surface I thought that he could be scum with Black but then I looked at the actual reasons for why he townread Black and they were basically the exact same reasons why I townread Black, just with different posts as our receipts.

In post 166, Black wrote:
Ok. Any thoughts on my vote on you? Do you think there was a reason behind it or did you read 157 as me not having one?
I assumed to glean my reaction to it, to be blunt. More specifically, the reason it gave me the impression from town from you as opposed to scum was that you hadn't provided your reason upfront, and I doubt that scum calculating their actions would make the obviously contradicting move of switching to my wagon like that while giving a tentative sounding excuse, when it could easily be pointed at later as potential sheeping. It feels like there was a towny thought process behind it, like as if you reread my posts and felt something from them that made you change your mind, but hadn't been able to put into words yet. So essentially you were placing your vote on me to try and sense out further what could be causing that vibe.

Yesterday I was scumreading you a lot but if I'm being honest my scumread was a bit overblown and reactive to your vote. Gut says you're town but I dislike how yesterday you didn't aggressively push the solve you had, I would expect you to do more if you were town. I might review your meta later and how you read people because in every game I think your reads are completely disingenuous, but I have noticed differences in certain games. The actual content of your read on me/Black/Kurta is very similar to MBOS 13 but the way you're pushing your solve is completely different and yesterday it didn't feel to me like you actually believed it.

[T3]

Yesterday I was scumreading you a lot but if I'm being honest my scumread was a bit overblown and reactive to your vote. Gut says you're town but I dislike how yesterday you didn't aggressively push the solve you had, I would expect you to do more if you were town.

I might review your meta later

and how you read people because in every game I think your reads are completely disingenuous, but I have noticed differences in certain games. The actual content of your read on me/Black/Kurta is very similar to MBOS 13 but the way you're pushing your solve is completely different and yesterday it didn't feel to me like you actually believed it.

why later, why not now?

It's the first night of Chanukkah lol

[T3]

summing it up as vibes is not that accurate anymore. i wouldn't feel this strongly if it was a vibe read. i've given enough reasoning that discounting it as "vibes" feels disingenuous

I'm not saying your read is vibes

now

, but yesterday you were strongly scumreading me for vibes.

[T3]

Chag Hanukkah Sameach

Chag Sameach!

[T3]

summing it up as vibes is not that accurate anymore. i wouldn't feel this strongly if it was a vibe read. i've given enough reasoning that discounting it as "vibes" feels disingenuous

I'm not saying your read is vibes

now

, but yesterday you were strongly scumreading me for vibes.

strongly is a stretch, this is what i had to say yesterday:

Spoiler:

What the fuck

don't like this reaction all that much

yeah and like... my reaction to the hammer was not "what the fuck" but rather "fuck yeah!!!"

so another thing i'm getting at is that T3's reaction seems kind of too salty to come from town. but I could be wrong

not just the wtf, but T3's other posts immediately after too

they just give off a salty vibe to me

Yeah, I guess so actually. Idk.

[T3]

Why the hell would I submit the kill if I was scum

[T3]

So suppose you, do you look for scum? Of course. Then who is the towniest scum?

You are jk. Ebwop

ok, I do need to read ahead... if I was JK last night I would have targeted T3 or Shaddow

Then your vote should be on T3 or Shadow logically. That's the no nightkill explanation.

logically speaking yes. but then there is gut, where is your gut telling you to go

T3 needs to be limmed. That's my gut. I see no world where T3 wasn't jailed because I expect the jailor went through the same process as it is clear and simple.

Titus you fucking suck

[T3]

If I am scum here then I WILL LITERALLY JUST HAVE MY PARTNER SUBMIT THE KILL TO AVOID GETTING BLOCKED BY THE JAILKEEPER. Yeah, Titus, no shit, I'm the obvious Jailkeeper target!!!

God you're so tunneled just like every single game I play with you

[T3]

I genuinely do not think I have seen you be right about more than 1 scum in any game ever

[T3]

So suppose you, do you look for scum? Of course. Then who is the towniest scum?

You are jk. Ebwop

ok, I do need to read ahead... if I was JK last night I would have targeted T3 or Shaddow

Then your vote should be on T3 or Shadow logically. That's the no nightkill explanation.

logically speaking yes. but then there is gut, where is your gut telling you to go

T3 needs to be limmed. That's my gut. I see no world where T3 wasn't jailed because I expect the jailor went through the same process as it is clear and simple.

Titus you fucking suck

We don't have to be mean...

I mean what I'm saying

My reads are shit but I don't just GET A SOLVE ON DAY 1 AND THEN PUSH THAT SOLVE IN THE FACE OF ALL RATIONAL EVIDENCE. In MBOS 13 you said that Norwee and I and someone else or whoever was scum for all of day 1 because GUT and VIBES. And because we were SPACIOUSLY TOWNREADING EACH OTHER or some other bullshit. You insisted and insisted and insisted until everyone got tired of your crap and limmed day 1. Then when the game ended and I was THE ONLY SCUM in your solve yousaid some bullshit like "wow i had 1 person in my solve right!!!!" For fuck's sake, do you have any self-awareness???!! I know I'm shit I know my reads are shit I know people look down on me as a player but I know that and I try to fix that!


you act like you were sent from the mafia gods to present your solve and when someone proves your evidence wrong you either double down but make no sense or you abandon your shitty evidence and move on to move shitty evidence.

whatever.

[T3]

oh or in secrets of the anukat topaz you acted like you were the mafia savant AND YOU HAD ALL 3 SCUM IN YOUR TOWNPILE

O WISE TITUS

please bestow upon us your wisdom

[T3]

I genuinely do not think I have seen you be right about more than 1 scum in any game ever

you can just, wait for her response yknow

I'll spell it out for you

titus said that Kurta is scum because "uhhhh ummmm gut"

and now she's spent the entire game making stupid justifications for that gutread

If you do a find on t3 in k's ISO you find zero substantial comments there. A bit of preflip but yeah.

like let's look at this,right we're at post 544

Kurta had made ONE post before i went on v/la. ONE.

[T3]

1400 begs for your reply. Am I wrong on it? Where?

i'll respond to this when i'm not feeling pissy and i've slept. Whatever.

[T3]

VOTE: Bella

sky probably engaged with me in good faith, I guess. Probably not. I'll think about it

Titus absolutely did not engage with me in good faith but I can't expect that from someone who is only concerned with her own ego. Maybe I'll respond to 1400. Part of me wants to ignore all of her posts for the rest of the day and solve on my own. Every time I see a Titus post scumreading me it just makes me more and more pissy and it takes up my mental space and I constantly ruminate about it when reading through the thread and the scumreads on me are all I can focus on and then I have slanted reads towards everyone else

[T3]

T3,

I wanted to be wrong on you when I jailed you. Maybe I am. Even if I am, a town!you guarantees that the doctor got a successful save. That still makes you the best mechanical lim. We wouldn't have a slot in elo that had a staunchly similar wagon to the flipped scum and has bad associations with Black.

I selected you because I wanted to prove my theory wrong. It is still possible camel is scum instead of you as Black doesn't have enough interactions there. However, in this setup, I feel the towniest scum should go for the kill to avoid a jailkeeper.

In my mind, you are universally townier than K. You'd go for the kill in a T3 and K scumteam. Is it a bit of wifom. Sure. But I was praying for evidence to be wrong. If a kill had gone through last night, it would be evidence to suggest my theory was wrong. Who'd send a lurker that was almost replaced to do a scum kill? That would be unlikely. So I'd tear apart the VCs looking for a difference.

When I saw that no kill, I tried to hurry people to make it as painless as possible while not leading people too harshly. Was I insane to jail you? The answers were a resounding no.

That leaves me backed into a corner. My deductions suggest you should flip, the VCs suggest you're scum, the PoE suggests you're one of the few viable suspects left.

I feel a certain amount of empathy for you being stacked with this much evidence against you. That's why I want you to challenge me. That's because, if you are town, you have no problem telling me precisely where I am wrong.

I didn't write that wall in post 1400 on the early Black posting for my own ego. I wrote it because I feel a kinship with Black. I see myself in her, which I am well aware it can lead to a blind spot.

The bad behaviors you see come from when I feel ignored. When the scum treat me like a human being and town don't, it's easy to get the two backwards and tunnel on town who think I'm an idiot for not seeing things their way.

I will likely be in this game for a long time, and that includes having better listening skills. If you are town, I want to hear from you as much as I can.

It would be disingenuous to say you weren't the best lim by VCA, by Black's flips and by strategy though.

Yeah no shit Titus, when I read in the night I knew you were Jailkeeper from 21.
Ffs.

[T3]

The only world in which Titus actually has a guilty on me is if I both somehow don’t know that she is Jailkeeper and my partner is exactly Kurta.

[T3]

The only world in which Titus actually has a guilty on me is if I both somehow don’t know that she is Jailkeeper and my partner is exactly Kurta.

?? did you spot a crumb yesterday?

No, last night.

[T3]

The only world in which Titus actually has a guilty on me is if I both somehow don’t know that she is Jailkeeper and my partner is exactly Kurta.

?? did you spot a crumb yesterday?

No, last night.

then why is that the only world?

"last night" as in "when I was reading ISO's during Night 1"

[T3]

This means there's about a 33% chance T3 is scum because Titus jailkept him. Maybe you think it's unlikely that T3 was the nightkill target (fair enough) - that's still a 50-50 split between "T3 is scum" and "the Doctor saved someone last night".

What I've been trying to say for a while is that

if I'm scum, I don't have to be the person carrying out the kill

[T3]

alternatively, T3 could have made the kill because the other partner was so townie that there was a possibility of them being jailkept for protection

My partner would have to be Dannflor or maybe OWER in this case

[T3]

While it's possible T3 is town, a doctor knows another player is town as there's no way scum kill T3.

i agree that flipping T3 is optimal because yeah that clears someone to the doctor if we're wrong, it'd be better to get that clear now than to wait (since waiting increases the chances of the doc dying)

So, what? We flip me, I flip town, and now the Doctor has a clear who they can't out?

[T3]

why do you think bella is scum, t3

or are you just lending a vote to camel

Both. Bella hasn't solved at all the entire game and she needs more pressure. Plus I think I'll get better reads if I'm engaged in places that are not Skygazer/Titus.

[T3]

Bella hasn't solved at all the entire game

Actually that's not true, she definitely did not solve when I was actually active in the thread and during my big catchup I barely even noticed her posts. Her ISO is also extremely forgettable.

[T3]

Plus I think I'll get better reads if I'm engaged in places that are not Skygazer/Titus.

To elaborate on this, 10 pages ago or so I was thinking that Knott is town because I felt that he was looking at my posts in 'good faith.' But then I asked myself "is he

really

engaging with my posts in good faith. Or am I just townreading him because he's townreading me."

[T3]

If Skygazer is town then I think I want to look at people who aren't solving here and aren't too invested in the wagons here

[T3]

Plus I think I'll get better reads if I'm engaged in places that are not Skygazer/Titus.

To elaborate on this, 10 pages ago or so I was thinking that Knott is town because I felt that he was looking at my posts in 'good faith.' But then I asked myself "is he

really

engaging with my posts in good faith. Or am I just townreading him because he's townreading me."

here are my posts where I mention you or interact with you, I'm not sure they fulfil your statement to be frank. They are mixed because that is how I am reading you, mixed.

Spoiler:

this to you directly

you are just not vibing mate. Where have you seriously challenged anyone? Your posts are generally reactive and somewhat off key.. For example your response to Black's self hammer. Where do you you fit in limming scum? Honestly you really need to convince me you are actually huntingother than masquerading as town

this to you when you are complaining in thread

woo is me.. then give us something that counts

this trying to get a grip with you and how you were playing.

44 Outworld pushing a TR on T3 based on the premise that trying to jump start discussion is more a town thing to do. But couldn’t the same be said for scum, especially a player who knows how to play scum? Not sure we should take that as a way to read people. And T3 backs that up in 48.

this in support of what I saw you doing.

I think T3 was having a giraffe (laugh) with Bella’s comment. Just my humble opinion, which he bears out in 63.

this because you told me that a post you had made was a joke.

85 thanks T3..

this because I genuinely felt a town vibe from you at the time

So far I read Aisa and T3 as probably town in all honesty.

This trying to get some information from Dann on a post he made about you

All of his posts? you've played with T3 before?

this because that is what I was reading at start of D2

ok.... so my thoughts are T3/shaddow or project....


just not liking what I saw from T 3, and to be frank an outside edge to Sky...

but ok there is the whole town inter fighting, first things first, I've been calling Black all day 1. that is a deep deep bus if I even had the notion to do it. So I think we need to look at T3, Shaddow, Project and to a lesser extent Sky.

self explainatory

VOTE: T3

this trying to work out the relationship that existed between you and Black

In fact had T3 been Black's partner and she was looking for cred, to hammer him and he flipped scum would have given her at least one more day, probably more. But what if T3 flips green, then where would she stand? Do you think she could argue her way out? The fact she was so quick to claim intent to hammer T3 would suggest a bus to gain time? or would it? for me I believe it was a potential bus. Look at the interaction between Black,T3 and Kurt? in a small way also Project. She doesn't go hard on any on them . She gives Kurt a lot of attention but is that WIFOM? She spends a lot of time protecting Project and on occasion Kurt, but not T3.

and this is where I am now.

And T3 sounds like an upset townie, very much so

This in particular

but after his outburst I am not so sure.

and this

And T3 sounds like an upset townie, very much so,

and this

VOTE: Sky

I don't know.. just something is pinging me

[T3]

Plus I think I'll get better reads if I'm engaged in places that are not Skygazer/Titus.

To elaborate on this, 10 pages ago or so I was thinking that Knott is town because I felt that he was looking at my posts in 'good faith.' But then I asked myself "is he

really

engaging with my posts in good faith. Or am I just townreading him because he's townreading me."

here are my posts where I mention you or interact with you, I'm not sure they fulfil your statement to be frank. They are mixed because that is how I am reading you, mixed.

Spoiler:

this to you directly

you are just not vibing mate. Where have you seriously challenged anyone? Your posts are generally reactive and somewhat off key.. For example your response to Black's self hammer. Where do you you fit in limming scum? Honestly you really need to convince me you are actually huntingother than masquerading as town

this to you when you are complaining in thread

woo is me.. then give us something that counts

this trying to get a grip with you and how you were playing.

44 Outworld pushing a TR on T3 based on the premise that trying to jump start discussion is more a town thing to do. But couldn’t the same be said for scum, especially a player who knows how to play scum? Not sure we should take that as a way to read people. And T3 backs that up in 48.

this in support of what I saw you doing.

I think T3 was having a giraffe (laugh) with Bella’s comment. Just my humble opinion, which he bears out in 63.

this because you told me that a post you had made was a joke.

85 thanks T3..

this because I genuinely felt a town vibe from you at the time

So far I read Aisa and T3 as probably town in all honesty.

This trying to get some information from Dann on a post he made about you

All of his posts? you've played with T3 before?

this because that is what I was reading at start of D2

ok.... so my thoughts are T3/shaddow or project....


just not liking what I saw from T 3, and to be frank an outside edge to Sky...

but ok there is the whole town inter fighting, first things first, I've been calling Black all day 1. that is a deep deep bus if I even had the notion to do it. So I think we need to look at T3, Shaddow, Project and to a lesser extent Sky.

self explainatory

VOTE: T3

this trying to work out the relationship that existed between you and Black

In fact had T3 been Black's partner and she was looking for cred, to hammer him and he flipped scum would have given her at least one more day, probably more. But what if T3 flips green, then where would she stand? Do you think she could argue her way out? The fact she was so quick to claim intent to hammer T3 would suggest a bus to gain time? or would it? for me I believe it was a potential bus. Look at the interaction between Black,T3 and Kurt? in a small way also Project. She doesn't go hard on any on them . She gives Kurt a lot of attention but is that WIFOM? She spends a lot of time protecting Project and on occasion Kurt, but not T3.

and this is where I am now.

And T3 sounds like an upset townie, very much so

This in particular

but after his outburst I am not so sure.

and this

And T3 sounds like an upset townie, very much so,

and this

VOTE: Sky

I don't know.. just something is pinging me

FWIW I am lean townreading you for your Black interactions though. And as I think about it, idk if the above post would be in your scumrange.

[T3]

Here's where I'm at with this game right now.

Bellaphant

- There's a lot of light shading and encouraging of Black scum reads throughout Bellaphant's ISO that I struggle to see coming from a buddy. Stuff like 564 that encourages a scum read on Black but doesn't take credit for a push on Black would be pretty weird bussing from a buddy. There's also 817 that openly hedges while leaning towards shade on Black. I feel like there would either be less shade in a hedgey read or it would be an outright bus from a buddy. This sort of "discredit your partner" thing isn't all that common or intuitive.

There's also a good amount of back-and-forth between Bella and Black about Black's meta and how well Bella knows Black's meta. It's not impossible to fake but the discussion is pretty lengthy and reads pretty naturally.

Then there's Bella putting Black to E-1. Yes, I suppose there is a universe where Bella intentionally put Bella at E-1 knowing it was actually the hammer, and then Black pretended to self-hammer all to give Bella town cred. But I think the simpler answer is that Bella didn't double check what Black was at because they aren't partnered. This point also goes for Jupiter, by the way.

JupiterXV

- Jupiter is just a shining radiant beacon of towniness. There's the E-2 thing. There's Black trying to pocket me while simultaneously goad me into scumreading Jupiter in 477. There's Jupiter's tonally genuine reaction to the Black self-hammer. I'm not going to spend a lot of time explaining this one because I think it's fairly widely agreed upon. Jupiter is just town.

Titus

- I had more stuff on this but with the JK claim it's all moot. But also I think Black's end of day push onto Titus never comes from scum/scum.

Afrayed Knott

- I would be very impressed if Afrayed Knott / Black was scum theatre. I'm not saying this because they were vanity voting each other for much of the day, but because of the back and forth they had and Black's genuine frustration at being meta read (see: scum read for the wrong reasons) and accusing Afrayed Knott of having a hot garbage read. Afrayed thinks he finds a "scum slip" in Black's posting. Black asks Afrayed for his other scum games on site. From Afrayed's side, it reads like someone who genuinely thinks they've found scum. From Black's side, it reads like someone OMGUSing who is also trying to look the best they can off of Afrayed's push. Black also initially calls Afrayed but doesn't vote there because "vanity wagons," which I think is kind of unintuitive for scum. When you're bussing as scum you usually want to make your scum read look as strong as possible just because that's what feels best when you know the alignment of your partner. This doesn't happen which makes me think Black vs. Afrayed was SvT.

shaddowez

- I really just tonally town read this guy. I think his responses to me shading/scum reading him day 1 were pretty towny. I also believe his trajectory of starting to scum read Black before the wagon appeared on her by first questioning me about my Black read and then later following my lead onto the wagon. I also think Skygazer makes a good point about his entrance to the day! shaddowez generally this game has kinda seemed off in his own world trying to solve the game, and I think that speaks of someone who isn't really trying to get town read but someone who wants to find scum.

OutWorldER

- I would, again, be extremely impressed if OutWorldER's interactions with Black on Page 40 were S/S. The constant appeals by Black to OutWorldER to consider what happens if one of Black/T3 were to flip town reads like Black appealing to a townie. I think this is also a mostly consensus read so I won't spend a ton of time on it.

Lim Pool

T3
Kurtapika
ProjEctRy
camelCasedSnivy Nono
Aisa
Skygazer

That leaves the above names as the lim pool.

I tonally town read both camelCasedSnivy and T3. I understand people want to kill T3. I think T3's reactions have been genuinely very towny. I also think the way Black played around Titus vs. T3 at the end of Day 1 looks a lot more like scum playing around a TvT than anything else.

Kurtapika, idk I think his posts are vaguely towny and I've come around to the perspective that Black might have been TMIing him as town.

ProjEctRy I think reads uninformed and I think Black's read on Projectry was probably a pocket.

That leaves Aisa and Skygazer as my solve and the most likely two scum candidates in my eyes.

I revisited Aisa today and I actually don't think any of her interactions with Black are clearing. Today, she doesn't seem super interested in solving the scum team? She's just kind of posting hedgey posts about T3 and not much else. I also feel much of her D1 posting in retrospect was about the appearance of solving rather than actually finding scum.

Skygazer... Maybe this is unfair but I feel they would be reconsidering the T3 read more as town. I feel like they are playing up how much they think it's going to flip scum so that when it flips town they look uninformed. But the constant interjections of "if T3 flips town (IT 100% WON'T)" feels very unnatural to me.

I also think the way Black played around Skygazer's wagon reads like SvS, and I think Skygazer called out Black for not voting her specifically because Skygazer had an informed perspective that it looked bad! I think a lot of things make sense if we had competing SvS wagons at the end of Day 1.

In conclusion, never touch any of the green names in this post. If we go through the lim pool we probably win. I personally won't support a T3 elimination because I independently town read him. But I understand the mechanical incentives for several players. I would prefer to eliminate Aisa or Skygazer here.

VOTE: Aisa

Re:shaddowez: I think that just randomly going off and solving the game is a playstyle choice more than anything else? For some players it’s towny but that’s just meta.

[T3]

Here's where I'm at with this game right now.

Bellaphant

- There's a lot of light shading and encouraging of Black scum reads throughout Bellaphant's ISO that I struggle to see coming from a buddy. Stuff like 564 that encourages a scum read on Black but doesn't take credit for a push on Black would be pretty weird bussing from a buddy. There's also 817 that openly hedges while leaning towards shade on Black. I feel like there would either be less shade in a hedgey read or it would be an outright bus from a buddy. This sort of "discredit your partner" thing isn't all that common or intuitive.

There's also a good amount of back-and-forth between Bella and Black about Black's meta and how well Bella knows Black's meta. It's not impossible to fake but the discussion is pretty lengthy and reads pretty naturally.

Then there's Bella putting Black to E-1. Yes, I suppose there is a universe where Bella intentionally put Bella at E-1 knowing it was actually the hammer, and then Black pretended to self-hammer all to give Bella town cred. But I think the simpler answer is that Bella didn't double check what Black was at because they aren't partnered. This point also goes for Jupiter, by the way.

JupiterXV

- Jupiter is just a shining radiant beacon of towniness. There's the E-2 thing. There's Black trying to pocket me while simultaneously goad me into scumreading Jupiter in 477. There's Jupiter's tonally genuine reaction to the Black self-hammer. I'm not going to spend a lot of time explaining this one because I think it's fairly widely agreed upon. Jupiter is just town.

Titus

- I had more stuff on this but with the JK claim it's all moot. But also I think Black's end of day push onto Titus never comes from scum/scum.

Afrayed Knott

- I would be very impressed if Afrayed Knott / Black was scum theatre. I'm not saying this because they were vanity voting each other for much of the day, but because of the back and forth they had and Black's genuine frustration at being meta read (see: scum read for the wrong reasons) and accusing Afrayed Knott of having a hot garbage read. Afrayed thinks he finds a "scum slip" in Black's posting. Black asks Afrayed for his other scum games on site. From Afrayed's side, it reads like someone who genuinely thinks they've found scum. From Black's side, it reads like someone OMGUSing who is also trying to look the best they can off of Afrayed's push. Black also initially calls Afrayed but doesn't vote there because "vanity wagons," which I think is kind of unintuitive for scum. When you're bussing as scum you usually want to make your scum read look as strong as possible just because that's what feels best when you know the alignment of your partner. This doesn't happen which makes me think Black vs. Afrayed was SvT.

shaddowez

- I really just tonally town read this guy. I think his responses to me shading/scum reading him day 1 were pretty towny. I also believe his trajectory of starting to scum read Black before the wagon appeared on her by first questioning me about my Black read and then later following my lead onto the wagon. I also think Skygazer makes a good point about his entrance to the day! shaddowez generally this game has kinda seemed off in his own world trying to solve the game, and I think that speaks of someone who isn't really trying to get town read but someone who wants to find scum.

OutWorldER

- I would, again, be extremely impressed if OutWorldER's interactions with Black on Page 40 were S/S. The constant appeals by Black to OutWorldER to consider what happens if one of Black/T3 were to flip town reads like Black appealing to a townie. I think this is also a mostly consensus read so I won't spend a ton of time on it.

Lim Pool

T3
Kurtapika
ProjEctRy
camelCasedSnivy Nono
Aisa
Skygazer

That leaves the above names as the lim pool.

I tonally town read both camelCasedSnivy and T3. I understand people want to kill T3. I think T3's reactions have been genuinely very towny. I also think the way Black played around Titus vs. T3 at the end of Day 1 looks a lot more like scum playing around a TvT than anything else.

Kurtapika, idk I think his posts are vaguely towny and I've come around to the perspective that Black might have been TMIing him as town.

ProjEctRy I think reads uninformed and I think Black's read on Projectry was probably a pocket.

That leaves Aisa and Skygazer as my solve and the most likely two scum candidates in my eyes.

I revisited Aisa today and I actually don't think any of her interactions with Black are clearing. Today, she doesn't seem super interested in solving the scum team? She's just kind of posting hedgey posts about T3 and not much else. I also feel much of her D1 posting in retrospect was about the appearance of solving rather than actually finding scum.

Skygazer... Maybe this is unfair but I feel they would be reconsidering the T3 read more as town. I feel like they are playing up how much they think it's going to flip scum so that when it flips town they look uninformed. But the constant interjections of "if T3 flips town (IT 100% WON'T)" feels very unnatural to me.

I also think the way Black played around Skygazer's wagon reads like SvS, and I think Skygazer called out Black for not voting her specifically because Skygazer had an informed perspective that it looked bad! I think a lot of things make sense if we had competing SvS wagons at the end of Day 1.

In conclusion, never touch any of the green names in this post. If we go through the lim pool we probably win. I personally won't support a T3 elimination because I independently town read him. But I understand the mechanical incentives for several players. I would prefer to eliminate Aisa or Skygazer here.

VOTE: Aisa

Re:shaddowez: I think that just randomly going off and solving the game is a playstyle choice more than anything else? For some players it’s towny but that’s just meta.

IIRC I also noticed his progression on Black and found it a little towny, but after Black flipped scum I’m scared of townreading players for genuine thought processes. I guess it just depends on what shaddow’s scumrange is, but he hasn’t played any scumgames recently so it’s hard.

[T3]

I’m starting to think that Skygazer is town here tbh

[T3]

OWER is 100% town, I took a cursory glance at his meta during the night and the contrast was like night and day, plus his interactions with Black spew him as town.

[T3]

snivy is probably town too. He doesn’t feel agenda-y and clearly wants to do something to change the gamestate and use his vote, it’s nothing like what I saw from scum!him in Secrets of the Anukat Topaz.

[T3]

anyways we're eliminating between me and T3 today so get your vote back on me or vote T3 please and thank you

is this a thunderdome?

Yeah, and a bad one at that.

[T3]

I still do not see how flipping me if I'm town actually helps

[T3]

From your POV, if I flip town, then what? A doctor has a clear, who in all likelihood is someone who we're all townreading already?

The mech against me only works if I am the one to submit the kill. Ignoring the fact that I already knew that Titus was Jailkeeper, I will only submit the kill if either my partner is so towny that they would be jailed, or so scummy that they would be jailed. In the former scenario, my only possible partners are Dannflor, OWER, and maybe Jupiter although I don't think that scum would see him as competent enough to kill. In the latter scenario, my only possible partner is Kurta.

The only people who have actually gone ahead and expressed why they scumread me for reasons other than mech are Titus and Skygazer. I don't hate Skygazer's case but Titus' case is clearly rooted in confirmation bias.

[T3]

anyway I've got Dominion night tonight so I'll be gone until tomorrow

Unrelated but I just added you as a friend on d.g I'm argtr

[T3]

If Skygazer is town then I think I want to look at people who aren't solving here and aren't too invested in the wagons here

Adding on to this, I don't think scum want to change the gamestate all that much here if we're both town

[T3]

Actually I don't know if this is true. If Skygazer is town then scum will not be pushing her hard and scum can push me hard and not get blamed when I flip town?

Maybe I want to look at people who don't have a position on Skygazer actually

[T3]

I still do not see how flipping me if I'm town actually helps

If?

Yes, I was speaking from your point of view, as I made clear in the following posts

[T3]

Do not reflexively lim Skygazer after I flip, I'm fairly sure she's town

[T3]

snivy is also town

actually i want to try voting here for today

VOTE: Bellaphant

I find it hard to believe that this post comes from scum!snivy

[T3]

snivy is also town

actually i want to try voting here for today

VOTE: Bellaphant

I find it hard to believe that this post comes from scum!snivy

It seems like an unremarkable post? Why do you think that wouldn't come from scum!snivy?

When he pushed players in the scumgame I played with him there was so much more of an agenda, here he just voted Bella to see what would happen (and was not LAMIST) about it.

What do you think is scummy about T3

he has a lot of posts for not trying to scumhunt at all

why did yall dissolve the alisae wagon

if alisae is scum i think all the slots that ignored them are also scum

ok but dont you agree prism is a juicier vote

then dont

lets settle this 1v1 tommorow

This is camel as scum and I see a pretty strong contrast already

[T3]

Will you explain your Skygazer read too T3?

I'm still pretty conflicted but earlier I was scumreading Skygazer because I thought that her reasons for scumreading me were done with an agenda and in bad faith but I realized that I was being biased because she was scumreading me... like honestly when I look back, her reasons for scumreading me are definitely scummy more often than not but my scumread on her isn't as conclusive as I initially thought. I especially liked her exchange with Dannflor and that pushed me from "null-to-lean-scum" on her to "null-to-lean-town"

[T3]

VOTE: skygazer

Skygazer is still in my PoE but that's more because I townread others more conclusively than I do her.

Kurta is probably scum but he's not here

VOTE: shaddowez maybe???

[T3]

Why is Kurta probably scum

PoE mostly

[T3]

This might be a little angle-shooty but he visited the site after daystart and has since ghosted which I could see being scum who rage-quitted

[T3]

UNVOTE:

T3, I’m not sure what to think. I have a thought that you are scum playing a very good save, and then I have strong doubt that that might not be the case. Maybe I’m being influenced by what you are saying or even what others are saying. I’m not sure. But there is a niggle in my head on who might actually be scum in amongst some of my town reads. I have Sky as an outside bet to be scum and not sure about Aisa, Bella or Snivy. Shaddow though remains as a scum read to me as does Project, again if I’m truthful that’s more down to consideration of who seems more town than others and those I feel are actively hunting.

Same here about how my scumreads are informed by who seems more town than the others. At least I found it a bit weird how shaddow hedges on me and completely ignores Skygazer, but I don't have much analysis on Project.

[T3]

I really dislike Bella's play today but I like Dannflor's townread of her and the receipts check out.

[T3]

I tried to engage the people who were voting me, Including T3 and got tumbleweed back

You did?

[T3]

Camel said they were voting me because I got voted day one, and didn't respond to further follow up, I am unclear why T3 is voting me apart from he seems pretty set that I'm 'not playing '.

I wanted to go somewhere that was not Skygazer to gauge reactions and help me sort people better

[T3]

VOTE: Aisa

Not Comfortable with the T3 vote, ok it’s billed as the best mechanical but I’m thinking this is better.

Why Aisa and not shaddow?

[T3]

I've found Aisa's recent posting to be pretty towny

[T3]

Or maybe you said that and I left it. Either way, I find frayed's question a big weird.

Do you think it makes him scummy?

[T3]

But also I just can’t shake the feeling Skygazer is overblowing her push on T3

I thought she was too but I also don't think that makes her scum at all

[T3]

- limpoop for me is between kurta, project, aisa, and maybe ccs havent seen much from thst slot

Thoughts on Bella and shaddow?

[T3]

tsk tsk

[T3]

[T3]

It was hammer
I was town

[T3]

honestly what if Dannflor is scum

[T3]

honestly what if Dannflor is scum

It'll be like pisskop in 244 that you modded :/

Dann has a crazy scumrange tbh

Look at his ISO in this game viewtopic.php?t=91436

[T3]

i'm still holding out for T3 trolling personally

I wish

[T3]

what a game

[T3]

Jupiter you did great!

All of the scumteam’s woes in this game can be directly traced back to me suggesting that Black and I push Titus together

[T3]

Jupiter you did great!

All of the scumteam’s woes in this game can be directly traced back to me suggesting that Black and I push Titus together

TRUE

Jupiter honestly I feel like

we

lost this game for

you

If it wasn't for our dumb move I think we could have won. You did your best to try and salvage it though!

yeah haha

Ngl if we hadn’t done that then we could’ve limmed Skygazer and killed Dannflor and then I’d probably get limmed but we’d have a 35% chance of winning or so