Mini 2331 - Touhou UPick: Anonymous Edition (Game Over)

[Yuuka Kazami]

I’m going to solve in the interim but I can also hold a conversation with you.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Aya what do you need from me for you to narrow your pool from Yuuka, Kagerou, Kaguya, Reisen. To that minus me?

You had already asked me to show that I’m town, but I don’t really think I succeeded there.

I am aware of what Koushi said at the end of the day phase. They were wrong and, well, yeah I’m sure you realize what happened there.

For those at home that might have missed what happened yesterday.

I said I blew my spell card N1.
Marisa either did not read those posts, reaction tested and was going to withdraw or alter the wording later, or they didn’t read their role/ forgoteither due to illness or something else.

They did not communicate that they had a vote multiplier before popping it, which scared both town and scum(or scum had a delayed rxn if team is kage/Reisen). They crashed due to illness and so couldn’t clarify that they had not made a mistake to force an elimination through.

Due to the time component it was rushed though, whether it actually made sense to assume Marisa made a mistake due to illness is hard to know from town or scum standpoint.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Yes, I understood that, that’s part of the reason I voted with you.

[Yuuka Kazami]

So I have 2 pieces of information, kind of. Kaguya targeted themselves last night. Doesn’t make them not!scum it just makes them not the one performing nightkills.

This also means either scum can’t roleblock anymore OR kaguya is the roleblocker and blocked themselves.

I haven’t looked back on the claims list but I think it can be narrowed down since multiple spell cards can’t be used the same night. Actives can be used with spell cards though.

Mech mommy tell me what it means.

Kaguya did you target yourself?

[Yuuka Kazami]

Additional question Reissn, did you pop your ability for player to force them to target themselves?
Because you should have popped it given it was melo and no one claimed a killing role.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Oh, I see Reisen made you target yourself. So either they did the kill, they’re lying and you did the kill or kagerou did the kill.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Okay can we agree that no townie should be voting on a wagon without me today?

That’s fine. I make my own solves in melo/elo, but it’s an ego thing not a “I must have this go my way no matter what” thing just because I wanna give a solve before winning/losing to be accountable to myself

[Yuuka Kazami]

I am telling you that you don't get to decide who dies today. I do.

Got it. Thank you.
Yeah, that’s fine.
Good luck.

I will be adjacent trying to figure the game out after work. I will avoid trying to influence you in that respect.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Glad to see your WIM is intact.
I’m not even sure how I’m supposed to ask you or differentiate between: you came up with what would save you.

At work with constant interruptions so I can’t really engage right now.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Well that was poorly worded.

I meant how you construed the Marisa Lim served you well. If someone took an opportunity handed to them, it was pretty much you.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Well that was poorly worded.

I meant how you construed the Marisa Lim served you well. If someone took an opportunity handed to them, it was pretty much you.

No I mean think about it: if it's Reisen/Kagerou then you admitting to not be roleblocked immediately turns the game into a TvT 1v1. At that point looking like you're going slow is where you wanna be, especially if scum had multiple blocks and blocked the spellcard.

Don’t get it.
Killing Marisa there due to player error when Marisa was either voting you or Reisen benefits you.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Don’t get it.
Killing Marisa there due to player error when Marisa was either voting you or Reisen benefits you.

Either people are bloodthirsty and the lim goes through fast without scum intervention in which case being off wagon is where you want to be

or people aren't bloodthirsty in which case you can't insta-force a lim through and being on wagon just looks bad

Blood thirstiness is not the gradient of choice in terms of figuring out who is scum.
Yes, there is some level of maneuvering/niche occupying.

But the level of risk taken in being in either of those positions isn’t paralyzing. For most scum.
Which returns me to the underlying point, it would have been risky to lead the wagon. But Marisa’s power changed the math there.

[Yuuka Kazami]

And just like that Aya has gone from 50/50 to 66% chance of hitting scum.

Is it even possible to win here if Reisen is town. I don’t know if they can show they’re town tbh.

Reisen, sup?

[Yuuka Kazami]

5815 i disagree with. Kagerou can be scum, but not really for those posts. It’s too subtle to really tell. You say it’s a strong tone but to me, it’s barely a whisper, if that.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Lurking out day 2 with zero attempt to solve is also where I'd expect scum to be wrt Sanae

Job stuff. Whether they’d have played this way as town while having job stuff as opposed to scum stuff is only a meta thing and I’d be hard pressed even for players I’m familiar with to bet right on that.

[Yuuka Kazami]

The justification of the shot is hard for me. I don’t have much experience with scum vigs. To me the tone was a little wonky, they neither came off as super defensive nor did it seem, like they did anything with the shot.

I might be projecting but usually my reads change/twist based on a shot because you try to justify a miss. Or go with a shot that, at least, gives you high information.

Tenshi wasn’t really that.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Hypothetical:

Reisen: if you’re town the scum team is exactly Kagerou/Kaguya. If you look into it you may be able to put the pieces together. I can’t because I’m not you.

Kaguya: if you’re town the scum team is exactly kagerou/Kaguya. Why are you going after Kagerou first?

Kagerou: if you’re town the scum team is exactly Kaguya/Reisen. If you can, I hope that clicks for you.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Sigh, Kagerou/reisen.

[Yuuka Kazami]

I do find the unlikeliest team to be Kagerou/Kaguya.

One small thing is mech spec complaining being kind of a weird push on your scum partner.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Okay here is my base thought right now.

I never wanna kill Yuuka.

I always think Reisen is scum.

And I'm deciding wherher I want to murder Kaguya or Kagerou, or if I just cop out and murder the caught scum and let y'all decide what to do about that tomorrow.

lol

{Yuuka}
{Reisen}
{Kagerou}

is around where I'm at. Wanna go for the ego play and kill Kagerou here?

Points please. No this isn’t a scum brag thing or a wink thing. I just want levels of confidence.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Hypothetical:

Reisen: if you’re town the scum team is exactly Kagerou/Kaguya. If you look into it you may be able to put the pieces together. I can’t because I’m not you.

Kaguya: if you’re town the scum team is exactly kagerou/Kaguya. Why are you going after Kagerou first?

Kagerou: if you’re town the scum team is exactly Kaguya/Reisen. If you can, I hope that clicks for you.

The fact I can fit with any team, you included, seems intentional, no?

I can look into kagerou, don’t think you have to sell me that hard on kaguya. Even if you’re scum one of them is as well. I can do this.

Again I think day 1 is when I felt most grounded in this game, so it mostly comes down to do I think scum was playing around the wagons because they were all on town or was larva shifting to save kagerou.

Intentional how?

[Yuuka Kazami]

If you’re town, Reisen is literally scum.
So.

5832: that was at the beginning of their job trouble though. They’re going to, at least explain themselves if they can. About their shot.

[Yuuka Kazami]

I’m not going to be selling anyone on anything this day phase Reisen

[Yuuka Kazami]

This is we need to hit scum time, not we need to do what’s best for Kaguya time.

A genuine look at Reisen is necessary here.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Why must I work to live. I wanna Iso Reisen.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Well my votes slaved. So technically it does not matter. But I’d really appreciate a look at Reisen.

[Yuuka Kazami]

I’ve never seen anyone ever do what Kagerou did this day phase.

If there’s one thing that is going to result in a town loss Kage, I mean besides hitting the other town, it’s being completely absent today and then posting in a dead zone at the end.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Is scum by PoE a thing in melo.
I guess low key I do that but to me the idea of PoE in melo is scary. And it just makes it hard to figure out if you’re afraid of interacting/casing them in case they mess up or they as the remaining town turn against you.

Ah, while very self aware. I think the idea of a Yuuka/kagerou. And Yuuka/Kaguya scum team don’t make sense. Just given how much we’ve talked to each other and the interactions therein.

Which leaves Yuuka/Reisen as Reisen helpfully pointed out. So that begs the question of why I’m specifically asking you two to look at Reisen. When that serves scum me just fine to just let you not do that.

Ah. Interruptions. Love em’

[Yuuka Kazami]

Ah.
Shit.

[Yuuka Kazami]

I said why I thought Dai was town in a bunch of different posts.

In terms of the nk, yeah sure.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Reading more but adhd might kick in. I’ve got yuuka, ichirin, tenshi, Marisa, sanae in my town kinda pile and kagerou/dai in my ew pile.

I think Sanae's reads are fake because Kagerou is my only townread so far

This might be the only read that’s made me smile. Town sticker.

I just don't find many reasons to vote for Koishi, and also feel like they will step up soon (or like, i hope, i'd be able to reconsider if things stay like they are)

175 has also reached straight for my tiny little sensitive heart i'll admit, and i feel like it's a very real thought to have (basically maybe it's not very justified, but it rings true and goes against what Scum!Koishi would be immediatly enclined to do)

No thoughts I want to share about this right now is just like to keep this post in my pocket for a rainy day.

of Clown, Yuuka, and Koishi, i think Koishi looks the worst by a large margin

and deserves more votes for their transgressions

Go a little deeper on this because I think from koichi and ichirins interactions, koichi has a clear mindset behind their posting and it tracks pretty well.

I still buy ichirin can be town. But the flash wagon is perfectly fine and if I was active around the time I probably would have voted there too.

Reisen can you elaborate on your 'ew' pile? Our reads seem to align in that regard but i want to know why you feel that way

They aren’t going to be for the same reasons cuz I’m super selfish and the world revolves around me but.

I thought kagerou putting me in their town core off just my ascetic claim was super weird. Marisa piggybacked on but I get their mindset because I’m also predisposed to town reading lighthearted jokey slots especially early in games. So reads genuine.

Kagerous read felt more like my name was thrown in there for the out of the box factor, because that’s just what townies do.

Dai felt more upset that I was being considered townie for doing nothing and I could see that as more scum frustration. So could I can see multiple worlds there.

I don’t think they are together.

Also I’ll add that I’ve lightened up on the kagerou read solely because of koishi who has shot up to one of my stronger townreads.

I had a pet theory that kagerou was OVERLY familiar with koishi, suggesting they were in a pt together.

I quoted the post but it seemed Fmpov that kagerou had a bead on who koishi was and that would have to come from more correspondence than was in the thread because I don’t think they had much interaction before that point?


But I’m at the point where I feel strongly that koishi is town and I’m just chasing ghosts there.

Not game advancing but I really like the dynamic of Yuuka being fine with murdering everyone and Marisa is the polar opposite. Made me giggle.

I’ll reread sanae, I remember something they posted and just going yup that’s town.

But I don’t even remember what that was or anything else they’ve said.

No one else replace or my hydra dissonance hate is going to max out and there’s only one a yas on these accounts!

VOTE: Kaguya

I usually scumread all ascetic claims but I think with the anon setup I’m pretty pleased with slots claiming it here. Roles may not be alignment indicative but slots being proactive in making night actions more easily navigable by town is appreciated I’m sure.

We also aren’t going to do the condescending language. Just so we are at a mutual understanding.

We also aren’t going to do the condescending language. Just so we are at a mutual understanding.

Yeah I was going to sleep but I didn't want to leave this out there so.


I apologize. My frustrations boiled over and I apologize. The condescending language is recalled, but not my objections.

I thought I had a pretty good winning lotto ticket but then it blew away in the wind.

It’s fine, it’s done. There will be more scum hunting, probably.

Liking Koishi on page 9 and Aya's roleplaying has already pocketed me

I have reason to believe Dai is town

Yeah I was hoping something deeper than the reads you dropped.

But I was more curious why koishi and aya got at least a brief reasoning but dai didnt.

great job Kagerou you're both admitting and not admitting in the same line, you idiot

Proud of you.

If I had a horse, I’d bet it on Marisa being town and that this statement will in no way come back to bite me in any way.

Kagerou is not kaguya…kagerou is not kaguya…

If it’s based on old koishi I get it. The read switches around the rep in are interesting but not in a “scum are playing around it” kind of way.

I am gonna largely pretend that that last Sanae and Aya exchange does not exist, because engaging with it feels icky, but

I'm saying that if Ichirin was scum she came out and chose violence.

I have seen this voiced a couple times (it may have been Aya both times, but I *think* it was actually someone else the first time, but I have not looked back).

But like... my interpretation of Ichirin's response was the exact opposite. Her response did feel like it was designed to appease her voters, but it just back fired.

She immediately went and found a New and Novel thing to be suspicious of, and double and tripled down on it (to a silly degree imo), when the main accusation was that there was no sign of solving from her, and it felt like she was avoiding questioning her voters - like her goal was just to change our minds.

It was not until Yuuka kept being so aggressive that she started to snap back at one of her voters.

Anyway, focusing on Ichirin I find myself agreeing with the clown. Koichi might have been on to something and I brushed that half of the conversation aside.

But I didn’t like how little interest ichirin showed in pursuing their voters till yuuka bit in. Eternity being a teammate makes sense to me and brings it all in together. I didn’t really see them calling out eternity as alignment indicative in the moment, just a weird way to look at the game. I see the theater potential though.

Yeah I gave it a little bit of rope for similar reasons Aya but it’s still going to lead me wherever it leads to.

Also yeah I think a break from the conversation would do all of you a little good.

I like the reporter bit, maybe the one off commentary isn’t a good format for the game though.

The news is modernizing.

I was reading along last night but had 0 energy to post so.

@Eternity, the long and short is that I don’t like your interaction with the ichirin scuffle, it came off as intentionally positional, you also have slight partner equity, and I didn’t like your interactions with the previous koichi.

But, new koichi is also playing intentionally positionally. So I can see at least one of you, ichirin, koichi being scum. I’m like 95 percent sure I know who new koichi is and I’m trying to separate the player from the slot but I don’t think that’s going to work for me. So even if I think they are scum there is a slim slim chance they get limmed in the near future.

If they are town I want them on my side, so I’d feel better sorting in you/ichirin first and figuring it out from there.

Also feel like koichi can sniff out who I am off this post but that’s fine I guess.

Nothing popped out to me. I’m sure last night was more impactful for the players that could interact with each other real time though, so that’s nice.

I did see someone make a comment about the game state being slow and scum being content with its direction and that did ring some alarms.

That’s the type of indirect truth statements scum like to pull out for some town credit at some point. I don’t know who said it but side eye.

Going to get back to this. Their day one play is a lot more interesting than I remember.

Oops.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Why did Reisen drop off after day one?
They acknowledge they did.
But no reason given(?).

[Yuuka Kazami]

If Kagerou is the townie then I'm not finding her anyways this game, so I'm not gonna optimize for that world

Why not? You can be wrong, can’t you?
One of the few town points I have for Kagerou town(this one) is that they have not tried to please me.

Another is that they’ve been near aggressively discrediting themselves. You come off as competent. They do not. It’s almost to the point of parody though. So it just gives me a head ache.
I don’t understand why scum them would a. Not read. B. Not talk to their partner first about basic facts of the game before taking action. C. Fake not reading the game. D. Completely lose the plot on basic melo play. They must realize that it is an awful idea to get an unexplained message and act on it in melo right?

Yet they didn’t make an excuse or say it was a reaction test. It’s just so, fucking weird.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Is scum by PoE a thing in melo.
I guess low key I do that but to me the idea of PoE in melo is scary. And it just makes it hard to figure out if you’re afraid of interacting/casing them in case they mess up or they as the remaining town turn against you.

Like metaphor time: you gotta treat it like watching a chess engine sack their queen for a hidden checkmate in 17. It's not a "human" move, in most cases sacking your queen (not sorting Reisen in ELO) is suboptimal, but in this specific case it's more optimal for me specifically because I know I'm town.

It's very specifically a playstyle divergence. You've slaved your vote to Aya so the only thing you can really do is solve, I'm openly deciding to get Aya to vote in a way that maximizes town winrate and as a result this kind of stuff is gonna happen

The only difference to slave voting and not slave voting here is that I haven’t been threatening people not to vote before I do. Nor have I tried to get people to cross vote who I suspect or start getting them on that path.

Aya did that first part first.
I would actually not consider that a play style divergence given I’ve been posting with that reasoning since I think 2 day phases ago. It ties in to the whole “I’m not going to let myself be killed like Sanae did”
Albeit I still don’t think they did. But you know, they could’ve fought harder is I guess was their point.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Oh, that’s funny they might've added themselves and their scum partner in the list and then said there was only one scum in it.

[Yuuka Kazami]

First Kagerou seemed to enjoy claiming scum in thread. They did it a few times.

[Yuuka Kazami]

That’s cheeky I didn’t consider that.

/: \: |::::

[Yuuka Kazami]

385 kinda sucks in retrospect.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Why are you looking at Kagerou first Reisen?

[Yuuka Kazami]

So, you’re saying that you’re looking at who you’re town reading for reasons to change your mind?

[Yuuka Kazami]

Or the opposite.
Loopy.

Why would you not feel bad about voting Kaguya?

[Yuuka Kazami]

Why are you looking at Kagerou first Reisen?

Cuz I could easily vote kaguya and not feel that bad about it. Also kinda think kagerou is just town. So I guess I’m looking for a reason to townread you via kagerou in a way? If I’m wrong that’s where I’m wrong so that’s where my focus is.

I’m less worried about your read of me than I probably should be. Tbh.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Okay, so you’re checking to make sure it’s not kagerou/Kaguya(?).

[Yuuka Kazami]

I am checking for that world too tbh Yuuka.

Initial post got lost. : X.

Generally it’s a possibility. On the surface I don’t really see it, because just as a rule of thumb it makes more sense for Kaguya to try to kill Kagerou here and now. I see Reisen:Kaguya as most likely in terms of scum pairings. While I struggle to see Kagerou as paired with anyone.

I guess kagerou is heading my way? Maybe, I’m not sure if they meant to say it, but they heavily implied they wouldn’t post much today and would try in elo. Which, solo, would not be an option for them.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Though this would still point to whoever Marisa scumread being scum, which would be Yuuka/Reisen?

It was you/Reisen.

I was third.
I think.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Kaguya, if you're town, there's something that should give you pause on me. Dai had a mound of evidence against them (even though Dai was town). Why would scum!me shoot my main suspect with one elimination to go effectively ruining my credibility?

You talk a lot about strategic moves and that one doesn't make sense.

It also doesn't make sense not to resort Riesen here.

I'm agreeing with Yuuka as of now, but far from locked in. Yuuka/Riesen can also be a thing. Tbh, I can see Reisen with anyone.

Already sunk your credibility tbh.
But yes, it did undercut you.
I’m not sure if that was a benefit or not.
I didn’t benefit from it simply because I’m town.
It did benefit Kaguya though.
But the scum team also held out on killing Koushi/Aya for awhile.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Dai had a mound of evidence against them (even though Dai was town). Why would scum!me shoot my main suspect with one elimination to go effectively ruining my credibility?

I townread Dai pretty heavily, what was even the case there? Actually probably doesn't matter compared to how likely Dai was to getting limmed. I'm phoneposting rn, what were the Dai stances before the shot?

Dai fmpov had none and all the dead suspected Dai so maybe I'm not the best judge. I didn't hear a single reason to townread Dai.

I think Dai was killed to frame me tbh rather than Dai's reads.

To be fair, if you don’t read the thread you will not hear any arguments, period.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Kagerou can you case the Yuuka/Reisen world?

Yuuka why isn't Kagerou/Reisen a thing?

Reisen why am I scum?

It can be a thing. I just don’t see any positioning that really favors that interpretation in the game.

You’re not at risk. My shot is slaved. You’re only at risk if Aya thinks you’re scum, not if I do.

Right now, I’m stuck in repeatedly considering whether “I’m surprised Marisa is still alive, after claiming multi-voter/whatever”.

I forgot exactly what you said. But it just feels wrong to me.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Kaguya, if you're town, there's something that should give you pause on me. Dai had a mound of evidence against them (even though Dai was town). Why would scum!me shoot my main suspect with one elimination to go effectively ruining my credibility?

You talk a lot about strategic moves and that one doesn't make sense.

It also doesn't make sense not to resort Riesen here.

I'm agreeing with Yuuka as of now, but far from locked in. Yuuka/Riesen can also be a thing. Tbh, I can see Reisen with anyone.

What are you even agreeing with me about?

[Yuuka Kazami]

Oh I'm actually a viable lim today here.

Annoying cause in that case winning is only easy if Kagerou is town

How is that easy? It’s the second hardest win for you by a town you country mile.

[Yuuka Kazami]

That’s a problem for tomorrow you.

[Yuuka Kazami]

- Anti-fishing town indicative

When the anti-fishing is anti-fishing their own role no not really

Not to mention it’s just an easy town point thing. Caution preaching is something I do as either alignment and it’s fairly simple to do.
1. Spot town or scum saying something careless or something that might give the scum team an advantage.
2. Admonish them.
3. Profit.

[Yuuka Kazami]

idk why we're even entertaining Marisa when she's claiming a block spellcard and quadvotered at 7p

This does indeed bother me a lot. + your 180 read on Reisen because yes their theme interferes with people, but not like

that

you know?

Reisen needs to be scum if you’re town.
But that brings me back to, why’d they misread Reisen, like *that?* You know?

[Yuuka Kazami]

I really am going to harp on you for not looking at Reisen. It’s not the kind of thing I want to see in a melo situation because it just looks like you’re partners with them.

You know that Kagerou doesn’t look like partners with you, you brought it up yourself that it was unlikely.

So why mess up like this unless it’s just that you’re aiming straight for the goal post.

(I realize I am being annoying, sorry).

[Yuuka Kazami]

And before you say I am aiming for the goal post: the *town* goal post .

I want you to consider what would get in the way of the last town member finding you. It’s pretty much Reisen.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Sitting at Kaguya = Reisen > Kagerou.


I have to figure this out. /:

[Yuuka Kazami]

Speaking of hindsight. Has Reisen commented much on the thematic elements this game?

[Yuuka Kazami]

I’ll check, but asking first. I have work this morning. Thankfully only for an hour or two.

[Yuuka Kazami]

I’m not sure how to interpret Reisen’s am I dead? Post. I see that Marisa voted them then popped their ability so I get where they’re coming from. From that angle

I’m not sure if that’s the natural town response to that, since a town’s person usually would throw suspicion somewhere if they weren’t sure or struggle in some manner, perhaps with a read’s list or something. I think there may be an angle of possible relief and vague amusement in their fingers crossed post. But that’s reading into them, when it’s just not really there.

Someone said she was quadvoter, I checked the vc and it said 4 votes to kill so I just thought I was dead. I don’t think it needs to be said to kill Marisa after I flip. Which clears you if they had flipped scum but. We’re here instead.

Nah. You’re scum for this post I think.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Shit, why didn’t you immediately suspect Reisen of trying to bring you down with them when they said they made you self-target?

In addition, you seemed to want to kill Reisen first at the beginning of the day then shifted to Kagerou, why?

[Yuuka Kazami]

I wanna look at if it makes sense for Dai to have been shot N2

Dai getting shot would validate the Yuuka scum + lying about spellcards/actives world, otherwise I think I want to vote Reisen here

[Yuuka Kazami]

Shit, why didn’t you immediately suspect Reisen of trying to bring you down with them when they said they made you self-target?

I don't get how this'd be bringing me down?

In addition, you seemed to want to kill Reisen first at the beginning of the day then shifted to Kagerou, why?

This never happened? I've been pretty clear about wanting to kill Kagerou today

It associates you with them and they would know your abilities while there’s always a small chance of things backfiring if they use their ability on someone they don’t 100% know the abilities of.

[Yuuka Kazami]

It associates you with them and they would know your abilities while there’s always a small chance of things backfiring if they use their ability on someone they don’t 100% know the abilities of.

I literally fullclaimed after a supposed red check (The Dai coming back thing), if you think people continue to fakeclaim there we play some very different games

I meant if you’re scum partners you won’t contradict them.

Yeah, I read your later reasoning. But why wasn’t that your reasoning coming into the day rather than your reasoning after saying you wanted to vote Reisen? Why was there a change, had you just not thought about who you wanted to fight off yet?

[Yuuka Kazami]

Honestly, at the current pace winning a 1v1 with kagerou would also be trivial.

I’m trying to say this and I want to say this again. I really, really, really want you to case Reisen and tell me why they’re scum or hell, I’ll take a revelation and Reisen is town and I’m scum with Kagerou over this.

[Yuuka Kazami]

It’s fucking unacceptable to me that “Reisen’s iso is fine, but not as fine as yours so they’re scum” in melo.

I’m sorry. I know it’s obnoxious. But it’s not something I can easily move past.

[Yuuka Kazami]

*speechless*
Oh come on. They have 230 posts and a “tee hee I thought I was dead” comment.

Not to mention it’s weird that they’re probably the biggest actual touhou fan here and they’ve barely touched on the flavor.

[Yuuka Kazami]

They’re probably a touhou fan.
That’s all I got.

[Yuuka Kazami]

They’re probably a touhou fan.
That’s all I got.

I didn't pick up on that from her ISO so I'd prefer the posts you saw there

Can’t. Reasoning is behind the screen.

[Yuuka Kazami]

*speechless*
Oh come on. They have 230 posts and a “tee hee I thought I was dead” comment.

Most of those posts were D1 where town was completely disfunctional, D2 onwards it's a ghosttown activity-wise

Yes. But why does a dysfunctional town make it harder to sort them from those early posts?

[Yuuka Kazami]

Kagerou are you saying that the proper play yesterday was to leash Marisa yesterday?
Is that really the correct one without the value of hindsight? Our negotiating position is largely, “if you don’t kill who Koshi/Aya says today or let it play out how we want you to” we’ll kill you tommorrow.

But What about a sacrifice play or the Marisa scum team had a shot(or some ability like it) or Marisa just goofed as scum because they were sick and forgot to push it through?

In retrospect, yes. I should have realized, that the wagon went through too easily, more people than usual were present and could push it through.

Marisa probably even sick would not have popped it and then forgot to vote immediately. There was a lack of tension there.

But not claiming it before hand was…sigh.
And, of course saying they had an objective guilty on me was also sigh.

I dunno. From my perspective there wasn’t a very high chance they were town faking a guilty on me and I didn’t think they were bluffing with that pop of an ability plus misreading their own ability, I know that people have had trouble interpreting their abilities, but that one in their role pm was pretty explicitly worded. It wasn’t easily missed.
So, very weird.

Oh well.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Ngl, I find it brilliant play in a town Reisen world for Kaguya to play this way.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Honestly, at the current pace winning a 1v1 with kagerou would also be trivial.

Sitting at Kaguya = Reisen > Kagerou.


I have to figure this out. /:

It's not clear to you, but I seem to have a genuinely bad time reacting to Kagerou's posts. Most of what they post sets me off. If they spam tomorrow with this level of content today. Then likely they will end up being my vote out of sheer exasperation.

If they're inactive tomorrow you can convince me, I'm slow to persuade but I am persuadable. It's unusual though. All you really have to do to beat me as town in elo is keep me occupied talking to you instead of trying to solve. It works fairly well. Even when I'm on guard against it.

@Kagerou, don't know if you missed it, but Aya dictates who dies today. Do not vote anyone until they vote. Unless you're scum, in which case, please vote someone right now. It's a really good idea.

[Yuuka Kazami]

I realize that Kagerou is capital W weird. Normally this would be a very easy decision based on how they entered this day phase and the end of last day phase.

[Yuuka Kazami]

How does Kagerou talk about optimal play last day phase and then come into this day phase voting me out the gate.

How.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Their wording implies that they would have tried to to leash Marisa if given the chance, but when they posted they didn't discourage anyone going after Marisa or take the reins in regards to Marisa's play that day phase, they were just like, "Oh wow that's interesting, excuse me everyone I'll just be over here, figuring out what my role does!"

[Yuuka Kazami]

How does Kagerou talk about optimal play last day phase and then come into this day phase voting me out the gate.

How.

I can be logical and forget things at the same time. Logic is only as good as the input, which is why I welcome being checked.

What does forgetting have to do with an unexplained guilty in melo?
Even if I had said nothing about my passive that claims scum on visit, it's still the wrong play in every situation with the current information available to you.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Yuuka this isn’t working I’m just townreading kagerou more.

Alas.

[Yuuka Kazami]

I'm not voting and I'll be out this weekend.

My order (from scum to town)

Riesen



Kaguya

Yuuka

Why am I on the bottom of your list now?

[Yuuka Kazami]

Their wording implies that they would have tried to to leash Marisa if given the chance, but when they posted they didn't discourage anyone going after Marisa or take the reins in regards to Marisa's play that day phase, they were just like, "Oh wow that's interesting, excuse me everyone I'll just be over here, figuring out what my role does!"

I had zero expectation of a speedlim.

I wanted to understand myself before even having an opinion.

Bleh.
Kaguya was out there posting about how, for a limited time only killing Marisa was half off, get it while supplies last.


You probably understand the concept of sale/marketing psychology. Or whatever it’s called.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Yuuka this isn’t working I’m just townreading kagerou more.

Alas.

Ah, melo. And also snark down.

I’m scum reading you.
Everyone is.
Why is everyone wrong?

[Yuuka Kazami]

Yeah, I thought you'd say that.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Nobody thinks you're scum partners with Aya.

[Yuuka Kazami]

I’m scumread by everyone but I could be partners with anyone…even aya! I’m biased but that should suggest that I don’t have a side playing for me to live.

Kaguya is pretty much, as you say, playing positionally, they do not wish to kill you this day phase.
They also, refuse to directly scum read you. You're a PoE and you appear to be staying there for them.
This does not seem to have done them any favors in terms of your suspicion of them.

[Yuuka Kazami]

So I think, in general my reads this game have been very accurate. Which normally would be a pretty big threat for scum. But I’m aware of my game presence via game absence and that makes it really easy to discredit or just talk over me. My reads or statements just don’t have that sticking power.

Normally, scum have bigger fish to fry immediately with koshi/Aya clearing themselves after the first day. Your presence and reads is not likely to tip the needle in terms of choice of nk compared to playing around Koishi/Aya.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Kaguya/You.

But this is unique to me. In that I would not let Kaguya back out of their town read of me.
I think Kaguya might be easier than you, simply because I tend to come off as to aggressive/arm twisty and I wouldn't consider myself super persuasive in the context of getting someone to reconsider. I also get fed up pretty quick.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Oh, to note, I always try to force the two players remaining to cross vote in elo, and would be trying to force my top two scum reads to cross vote in melo in other circumstances. I already said this, but saying it again. Not that, it's especially important to say.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Hard to know from their perspective, in reality, just based on your posts this day phase, I'd say I'd be easier to convince than you. This is mainly because while I've been kind of panic posting about topics or issues in their play that concern me, you've just kind of been silo'd up and saying, essentially, "yep, Kaguya looks like scum to me"
There's not much room to argue with that. I'm engaging in a way you aren't they asked you 3 times to case them before you responded.
Like, what is scum Kaguya going to do with that?

[Yuuka Kazami]

Reisen, why haven't you commented on the thematic elements/roles this game much?
You're a touhou fan, right?

[Yuuka Kazami]

@Kagerou:
1. Delegating responsibility to stop a wagon is, in those circumstances, largely indistinguishable from "I could have totally stopped them, but, as scum, why would I interrupt the town when they're making a mistake? oh, role so shiny"
2. Please respond to why forgetting my role made your play more logical in a melo situation.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Nobody thinks you're scum partners with Aya.

Town….town partners.

There are 3 town alive.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Nobody thinks you're town partners with Aya either. :3

[Yuuka Kazami]

Reisen, why haven't you commented on the thematic elements/roles this game much?
You're a touhou fan, right?

Nope, I’m aware of touhou, never played. But I’ve seen reisen before in a show. That’s where my knowledge ends.

Oh.
Opps. Ah well.

[Yuuka Kazami]

What was the point you were trying to make by asking me that question?
What did you think I'd say?

[Yuuka Kazami]

Specifics, please. Not generalities. What were you, precisely, trying to get at?

[Yuuka Kazami]

No.
You get a guilty result with no explanation in melo, you do not vote guilty.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Even more specifically if you’re the other townie think they need to get into your head vs a lim option that’s relatively easy to push through. Barring a paranoia vote scenario.

Between you and Kagerou, which do you think is an easier lim to push through

[Yuuka Kazami]

@Kagerou:
1. Delegating responsibility to stop a wagon is, in those circumstances, largely indistinguishable from "I could have totally stopped them, but, as scum, why would I interrupt the town when they're making a mistake? oh, role so shiny"
2. Please respond to why forgetting my role made your play more logical in a melo situation.

1. You can't stop a freight train you don't expect to come.
2. If you forget you notify each visitor is scum, then you see guilty, vote guilty.

Your positioning and reasoning yesterday and the one you took this day is the purest kind of contradiction.

Caution and optimal play in a lower stakes game state to non-optimal play and recklessness in a higher stakes game state.
You just didn't see it coming with Kaguya when they were rushing the elimination through with basic marketing techniques.
and your excuse for not intervening is the equivalent of saying you need to use the restroom during a pivotal moment.

No. I don't think so.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Reisen, why haven't you commented on the thematic elements/roles this game much?
You're a touhou fan, right?

Nope, I’m aware of touhou, never played. But I’ve seen reisen before in a show. That’s where my knowledge ends.

Didn't you have to list out multiple touhou characters when signing up?

[Yuuka Kazami]

You guess?

[Yuuka Kazami]

Pretty sure I’m obligated to kill you for trespassing.

[Yuuka Kazami]

2. If you forget you notify each visitor is scum, then you see guilty, vote guilty.

What did burglary give you from Yuuka

Sunflower

Huh, I wonder if that means if someone visits you I get a result.

Another mechanism I suppose.
Or maybe it’s your own flower you can give to others to watch them.

Did they say what it did? Or just “here’s a flower?”

[Yuuka Kazami]

Well, it kind of doesn’t matter, it’s too late for all that.

Heh, unless you’re town and the scum team night kills you for no reason.

[Yuuka Kazami]

I’ve begun swinging back to a Reisen/Kagerou team.

Yesterday is really hard to look past for Kaguya. In a lower stakes state I’d probably kill them just because they keep leading in the wrong direction.

Hell, maybe I should.

But Kagerou’s play yesterday and today is just unfortunate if they’re town.

It still doesn’t make sense why they’d vote me in melo. Kaguya called it a dumb tell, but the advantage is so nebulous that I almost gave Kaguya a scum point for saying it.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Ah, nevermind. It kind of clicks for scum to see something unusual going on there and see an excuse to vote town in elo with some momentum behind it.

Doesn’t explain why their partner didn’t say anything. Or maybe they’re more aware and they just decided to go all in on the sloppiness.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Yeah, I just can’t explain it in a good way
All I know is that the “I forgot” is unlikely to be true. Without something else being included such as “I had a weird day, I was half asleep, I don’t think through things on a consistent basis, it’s a me thing, or a mood thing”

[Yuuka Kazami]

The recent push against Reisen and the incredulity they’re being town read, isn’t really coming up elsewhere. They don’t *sound* like they think they deserve to be scum read for their play.

But when they talked to Reisen they implied they should’ve been. Albeit I’m not clear on exactly what they thought Reisen should be scum reading them for

[Yuuka Kazami]

They = Kagerou.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Hello, hello.
Good luck.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Wrote another post, deleted post.
Not game advancing

Are You three done solving(Kagerou, Kaguya, Reisen?).

[Yuuka Kazami]

Might as well try, we’re not in control of the schedule today.

[Yuuka Kazami]

The next question for me is which player is the most likely to be scum.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Do any of you 3 have any tells or AI reasons that are reliable for reading others that players have tripped this game?

Please provide the reason and name the name, if it’s not reliable don’t list it.

Or, you know, don’t do this and ignore me. That’s fine also.

[Yuuka Kazami]

I’ve begun swinging back to a Reisen/Kagerou team.

Yesterday is really hard to look past for Kaguya. In a lower stakes state I’d probably kill them just because they keep leading in the wrong direction.

Hell, maybe I should.

But Kagerou’s play yesterday and today is just unfortunate if they’re town.

It still doesn’t make sense why they’d vote me in melo. Kaguya called it a dumb tell, but the advantage is so nebulous that I almost gave Kaguya a scum point for saying it.

@Kagerou, where I’m at right now.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Sure, I misconstrued you there, I think.

[Yuuka Kazami]

N1: Used contagious watcher spell card on Clown Piece, missed because they commuted. Was visited by Tenshi and provided a buff that allows me to use my self watch twice on the same day (which is, sadly, useless).
N2: Self watched: visited by Clown Piece.
N3: Can't do anything. Marisa states they role-blocked me and I would be notified unless I was scum. However, their ability does not notify the player if they have used up their spell card. I had made multiple previous posts letting people know my ability failed and I think 1-2 posts that stated it was a spell card and I had full claimed before then and made it clear that I had 1 spell card, 1 active, 1 passive and that was it.
N4: Self watch: Visited by Kagerou who says they received a sunflower through Burglery they have not told me what it does.

Abilities:
1. Spell card: Contagious watcher - Target a player, if they are visited that day I am notified that they were visited in addition that player is informed they have a flower (I can choose what type of flower it is, the default is a sunflower, I did not specify the type of flower I wanted it to be when I used the ability), the players that visited them also get a flower and are watched the next day and this can spread again if they're visited.
2. Active: Self-watch, non-consecutive.
3. Anyone that visits me receives a message that says I'm scum.

[Yuuka Kazami]

One fish, two fish, three fish, four fish.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Oh, it's red fish, blue fish.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Yuuka you around to talk

Work -> Meeting until 3:30 -> Dentist -> Turning in a paper due tonight.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Can try, but will be spotty, what did you want to talk about?

[Yuuka Kazami]

6058 is a valid point.

I was pretty discouraged when I noticed that Larvae seemed to be making similar posts for different players.
For example, I associate scum buddies with lukewarm interactions and soft balls. But I noticed they threw soft balls to town.
They would shade and then backpedal in the same post on two different players and it kind of made me realize that they were pretty aware of how associations would look and made samey posts to avoid that. This is why I like 6058 because it doesn't touch on associations in terms of interaction patterns so much as from a scum game plan and that game plan gets a little ruined with bussing a partner day 1. They did not seem very half-hearted with the Kagerou push.

[Yuuka Kazami]

2420: is very much a point. I'm not sure how well they're able to emulate a town mindset, they've done some slips like that before, in this case, I see what you're saying, that they're complaining that they don't feel like they can push them, because from an informed point of view they think their claims are stronger than they actually are, albeit, I think Kagerou's claim had a better chance of having town let it ride than Ichirin's.

But Ichrin wasn't really townie in their claim, rather, this wasn't a popular point of view, while Kagerou's was.

I'm not sure how much I want to weigh Larvae possibly slipping the truth: that they're frustrated because of their own defeatism about people's claims miscalculating the verifiability and vulnerability of each player. It could be a free mistake that dooms the scum team.

Or not.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Okay. My new reads are Kagerou town Reisen scum.

If I still trust my gut on Yuuka town that makes Kaguya scum.

I am far more confident in Reisen scum than Kaguya scum but I worry if I kill Reisen today Kagerou will die tomorrow. I am utterly convinced Kagerou is town. Beyond all doubt.

You can simply tell me to kill Kaguya and I'll do that next day phase.
With a Reisen scum flip it becomes closer for Kaguya in my mind.

[Yuuka Kazami]

I’m saying I associate Reisen scum more closely with you than Kagerou scum.

So if Reisen flips scum then I think you’re more likely to be scum.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Yep!

[Yuuka Kazami]

Yep!

That feels wrong but I don't have time to figure out why

It really doesn’t if you’ve been paying any attention to my posts this day phase. lol

[Yuuka Kazami]

To be clear: if Reisen flips scum you spent all day trying to kill someone who I don’t know is scum instead of someone that I now know is scum.
If Kagerou flips scum you spent the majority of today bussing your partner.

Which one seems more likely?

[Yuuka Kazami]

I tried to tell you that it would be a problem if you did not try to read Reisen this day phase.

So yeah, if they flip scum. You’re going to have to live with that choice.

If not, congrats on your win! You played well.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Aya’s pointing out those Larvae reads tipped the balance some. They really do have a point and I’m not sure Larvae has the guts to make that “I’m frustrated” post as a red herring. It seems more likely they weren’t thinking than that they were willing to risk their position intentionally in case they flipped later.

I still can’t handle Kagerou and how they’ve played this day phase not to mention their seeming, inconsistency or unwillingness to engage in a topic for more than a post or two before seemingly pretending it doesn’t exist anymore.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Reisen. Scum.

Kaguya = Kagerou.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Yeah, you do you.

[Yuuka Kazami]

You gunna engage the substance of those associative posts or only barely touch the edge of the wings on them?

[Yuuka Kazami]

Like your play towards the second half of the phase feels positional (If Kagerou flips then you get to kill Reisen with me, if Reisen flips you get to kill me with Kagerou) and I wanna check if I'm going crazy or not

It’s called algorithimic play and it’s not a difficult concept to grasp.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Wait, what.

No. If Reisen flips town I don’t get to kill either of you. Game’s over.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Yes, because I don’t wanna die and lose the game which 100% happens today or tomorrow if I die.

You’ve used this perspective yourself. I didn’t challenge you much on it because I understood the perspective.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Aya also has a reeval of me in the works. So it’s entirely possible I don’t end up in this position tomorrow.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Huh?

[Yuuka Kazami]

Yes, that's my playstyle, you found it.

[Yuuka Kazami]

The only alignment I know for sure is my own, so it's the safest bet.
It goes me
1. Me.
2. Empirical town.
3. Wibbly-wobbly people in a wibbly-wobbly world.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Could people stop trying to force me to make decisions on hard stuff.
I'm constantly changing my mind and dithering because I've been doing that the whole game. New information makes me recontextualize stuff. I didn't think Larvae had any solid associative leads, now Aya found some that don't seem too bad. so I'm weighing that.

[Yuuka Kazami]

You'll notice that if I had made up my mind, I wouldn't have changed my mind.
From Dai scum to dai town.
From you scum, to you town, to you scum, to you town, to you scum.
From kagerou town to kagerou scum to kagerou town to kagerou scum to kagerou weird.
From Reisen town, to Reisen scum.

It's weird.

[Yuuka Kazami]

yeah my job is significantly harder than both of yours because i gotta split you all into 2 groups of townies and not townies.

Y'all know you're town and I'm town so you only gotta find 1 more.

This is true, yes.

[Yuuka Kazami]

I'm pretty ashamed I'm having as much trouble as I am when I'm staring at 3 players with two scum in them.

[Yuuka Kazami]

RIGHT NOW, RIGHT THIS SECOND IN THIS SINGLE MOMENT IN TIME,
I THINK, KAGUYA MUST BE THE TOWN BECAUSE UNLIKE REISEN, THEY IMMEDIATELY GET THE OMGUS MICROSCOPE OUT WHEN THEIR POSITION GETS WORSE BASED ON WHAT SOMEONE SAYS ABOUT THEM TO SEE IF IT'S SCUM DOING IT.

I HATE KAGEROU'S POSITIONING SO MUCH THIS AND LAST DAY PHASE THAT IT ALMOST FORCES ME TO EXCLUDE ALL OTHER CONSIDERATIONS EVEN AS I REALIZE SOMETHING REALLY STRANGE IS GOING ON THERE.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Yes, it was Kaguya scum/Reisen scum then.
In this singular moment in time it's Kaguya town, but I can easily be wrong here. You have the wim to do this.
You have a cookie in one hand and a closed fist in the other. It's skinner box basics.

[Yuuka Kazami]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_c ... chamber%20

[Yuuka Kazami]

Huh?

I've been pretty clear that my solve is Kagerou/Reisen, my open positionalness is based on maximizing the likelyhood that this solve goes through

You don't have a set in stone townie, your positionalness is based on maximizing the chances that Yuuka doesn't go through

fist/Pushing back/La re'sistance

Cookie.

[Yuuka Kazami]

I did, but I'll answer it again.
My problem is that Reisen had material, but you didn't want to engage in past play but only wanted to engage in the moment.
There is material to work with, it was a choice.
Kagerou, in their way, pushed at Reisen, but you haven't.
Your and Reisen's reads have been relatively static, My and Kagerou's have not (this day phase) been.

I know what you're trying to say,

"If Reisen is always scum here, doesn't that mean I should always be in their scum team with them? Why are you still holding out on Kagerou scum, when it's clear you associate Reisen with me"

Like, there's a reason it's that way and it has to do with fog of war, uncertainty, algorithmic play, risk of play, scum strategy etc.
But it also has to do with my preoccupation with Kagerou's play today and yesterday.

Today they entered and made a misplay if they're town. Their "I see scum, I vote scum in Melo, with an unexplained guilty" does not align with their relatively solid reasoning (albeit that was risky as hell) in regards to how to handle Marisa, they say they have logic in and logic out. But Their logic about yesterday versus their logic of today does not follow their play does not follow their logic of today.

They also don't really address questions directed at them in a satisfactory manner, nor do they respond specifically. Not to mention they replaced into this game and yet have provided the bare minimum of activity.

In addition, they flipped their read of me from scum yesterday to town today after starting out by voting me without solidifying the reasoning involved giving them room to maneuver or hell even letting their reasoning be examined.

When I tried to list out why each player could be scum,
I realized that I had a long ass list of Kagerou question marks and suspicions, while you and Reisen had a relatively modest profile.

This actually made me double take because I get worried that if I have *too many reasons* they're just careless town, but enough about my predilection to fence sit to counteract my tunneling.

Do you understand what I am saying Kaguya?

[Yuuka Kazami]

I also have a test-type reasoning, I'm told that the first time you put something together on a test it's usually the right answer, if you change it, it's usually wrong.
Last game day when going over my notes I realized that a Reisen/Kaguya scum team made sense. When I was thinking about vulnerabilities based on where each player was positioned.

So that kind of bothers me too.

While I think VC is important to creating context in terms of risk to Kagerou yesterday, I'm not sure it's the end all be all when social sentiment works just as well, there's also simply that each player is going to have a different interpretation of how vulnerable each particular player is.

[Yuuka Kazami]

This is because a kagerou/Kaguya scum team probably doesn’t exist. Which leaves Reisen as always being scum.

[Yuuka Kazami]

They are not my strongest individual scum read, they are merely the most likely to be scum. Because a Kaguya/Kagerou team doesn’t make much sense to me.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Like my issue here is specifically that you had Reisen listed as your TOP scumread while having a mountain of reasons to scumread Kagerou because it just reads like a Reisen bus

Are you certain this is an issue. You’re focused on a nuanced as hell read, in a land of a bunch of reads and posts I’ve made. It feels like you’re wasting your own time.

[Yuuka Kazami]

To be clear, I’d have killed Reisen if Aya wasn’t here. After freaking out for a long, long time.
Instead I spent it also freaking out, but I spent it freaking out on everyone.

This is because, counter to your concern that your best chance of winning is if Kagerou dies today, I feel like my best chance of winning is to have both of you spam at each other and hopefully be able to tell the difference.

[Yuuka Kazami]

You’re not bussing her.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Are you saying my reasons for scum reading Reisen are inadequate. I would like to remind you that of the three of us, mine could pretty obviously be the front runner with yours being PoE after a mistaken mech clear, and the current Kagerou barely providing a reason. At all.

[Yuuka Kazami]

You’re not bussing her.

Yeah and I'm town so what's your point

You’re not bussing her, and you really really should be.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Nope.

[Yuuka Kazami]

I can’t remember a single reason this day phase. They’ve given for a read.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Work interruption can’t ignore.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Has Kagerou dropped reasonings for her other reads yet I legit forgot

Actually no we're both getting sidetracked from the meat of the argument. It's not about the quality of your Reisen read compared to Kagerou or mines Reisen read. It's about the quality of your Reisen read compared to the quality of your Kagerou read

LMK if this goes anywhere.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Rn though, I just think it’s contrived.

[Yuuka Kazami]

It just occurred to me that Kaguya has had 4 mechanical mispeculations this game.

1. They thought Marisa's order of their abilities made them scum for deviating from everyone else.
2. They thought Reisen could not be scum because they couldn't break spell cards.
3. They thought Marisa was scum due to how they used their ability.
4. They thought Sanae was scum for their abilities, before changing their mind and becoming neutral.
5. they thought I was a PGO and scum. Before changing their mind for a non-mechanical reason. That wasn't really properly explained, rather, to my satisfaction it wasn't.

To be fair, they were correct on Dai and pretty much was at least half the reason I changed my mind (the other was Dai themselves due to how they responded to my incredulity that they had no real down side to their resurrection after implying they did)

On the otherhand, my reads early game were perfect and had no flaws. I mean, just look at them.
Did I have a single fucking scum in my scum reads D1?
Pretty sure I didn't.
And had 2 scum in my town reads.

So like. At least Kaguya put themselves out there. In contrast to Kagerou and Reisen ~_~

[Yuuka Kazami]

Pay no attention to how I said there were 4 speculations, when, in fact, there were 5.

Another thing that just bothered me about Kaguya, albeit they called it being side tracked is that, essentially, they really haven't looked at how each player is bussing Reisen, because, as they say, from their perspective one scum is bussing Reisen, they only got around to it now and are pushing me while giving Kagerou a pass and also not really commenting much on what Reisen is doing.

I do have a sick sinking feeling I'm just swiping at the other town because, that's just the natural thing that happens when the other two players don't post much.

[Yuuka Kazami]

May we both eventually find each other if we're both town. *prayer*

[Yuuka Kazami]

Page top.

[Yuuka Kazami]

I am waiting for Kagerou to make an appearance as they did say they would be here later tonight.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Is it that something is wrong. Or is it that you need to change your mind on my alignment because suddenly it's not such a good idea to be town reading me anymore when I seem willing to vote you in elo.

[Yuuka Kazami]

It's a mystery.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Yuuka if you're town I unironically think it might be optimal for the both of us to stop posting until Reisen and Kagerou get back to playing this game

Freezing my read of you at a low point is bold of you. Are you sure we cannot find each other just by talking forever and ever?
Because I have faith I can just find you if I just keep on keeping on.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Like this isn't working for me at least, I need to talk to the other two to get a baseline

Fair.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Are you saying I'll change my mind forever, or are you going to do a deep dive and try to figure out where I changed my mind in each particular instance?

[Yuuka Kazami]

No kagerou it seems,
bummer.

[Yuuka Kazami]

It's a skill thing, depends how good the town are at finding the town and how good the scum are at hiding it after that discussion + how easy it is to convince town to vote wrong.

From a pure numbers pov, 60% town voice, is worse than 100% town making the choice.

[Yuuka Kazami]

My initial opinion on it was “no” and that it took gall to say it, which continued to add to my weirdness pile. Also, I don’t want to just pounce on them all the time for being weird. I don’t think it would be constructive. Rather it just feels like I’m being mean for the sake of it, even calling them weird over and over is rude and a discredit, it’s shorthand for “player thinks differently than I do, harder to get a handle on them given posts and reasoning”

You can safely ignore this post and just focus on the one above.

[Yuuka Kazami]

It's a skill thing, depends how good the town are at finding the town and how good the scum are at hiding it after that discussion + how easy it is to convince town to vote wrong.

From a pure numbers pov, 60% town voice, is worse than 100% town making the choice.

... It's still 100% town making the choice, just with more data.

Ah, I see what you mean.
I have no objections to Aya dictating who cross votes. It’s just safer.

I am upset Kagerou that you and Reisen have barely posted this day phase, and you continue to ignore questions pointed your way in melo.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Sort of obvious,
Town voting anyone is cutting the chances of a successful scum kill. Compared to a confirmed town telling two unknowns to vote each other. In fact, if I’m excluded one of the cross votes always lands on scum.

Tis rational, though, I didn’t say anything because I forgot. Derp.

[Yuuka Kazami]

The input thing I’m more iffy on.
But only because input is vague. If you just mean, like, two players vote each other and then the 1v1 produces “output” sure.

Everyone taking turns whispering into Aya’s ear as an input in response to the 1v1 output I’m more iffy on.

[Yuuka Kazami]

As for whether that would have happened naturally, no.
I’d have just voted whoever Aya tells me to and when they tell me to.

[Yuuka Kazami]

It's a skill thing, depends how good the town are at finding the town and how good the scum are at hiding it after that discussion + how easy it is to convince town to vote wrong.

From a pure numbers pov, 60% town voice, is worse than 100% town making the choice.

... It's still 100% town making the choice, just with more data.

While there are a lot of questions hanging, I need you to explain your read flip on me and answer Kaguya’s questions.

[Yuuka Kazami]

….
Sigh.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Well don't keep us hanging

But that’s the best part. Usually the next post the player makes points the finger at me and I get all stressed out.

[Yuuka Kazami]

it's worth having a replacement of Reisen come in and have Kagerou come in too tbh. we're frozen for the mo

yeah, I know. Just having fun.

[Yuuka Kazami]

This is a lot spicy. But I’m okay with accelerationism.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Dai who's passive do you think Mafrisa would disable over yours N1?

Playerlist:

1. Tenshi Hinanawi -

   Tenshi Hinanawi
   
   
2. Aya Shameimaru -
   Aya Shameimaru
   • Wind Sign "Wind God's Fan" [Spellcard/Night] Deflector, resolves first
     
   • [Spellcard] Make all PTs found with PT Cop ability public
     
   • [Active/Night] PT Cop
     
   • [Passive] Invisible to action investigatives
3. Yuuka Kazami -
   Yuuka Kazami
   • [Spellcard] Unknown, used N1 on Clownpiece
     
   • [Spellcard] Unknown
     
   • [Active/Night] Self-watch
     
   • [Passive] Notifies anyone visiting her that she's part of the scum team
4. Kaguya Houraisan -
   Wakasagihime
   • [Spellcard/Night] - Effects targetting me resolve as if Strongwilled, get 3 fish total when combined with singing
     
   • [Spellcard/Night] - Doctor a single person per two fish
     
   • [Active/Night] - Sing to get 1 fish (Resolves before my spellcards)
     
   • [Passive] - Invisible to action investigatives
     
   • [Passive] - In a hood with Daiyousei
5. Kagerou Imaizumi -
   Marisa Kirisame
   • Love Sign "Master Spark" [Spellcard/Night] Juggernaut, can't be recharged
     
   • Magic Sign "Stardust Reverie" [Spellcard] Enter a hood, if it's temporary make it permanent
     
   • Burglary [Active/Night] Flavor Cop with extra effects
     
   • [Passive] Mod Confirmed to be
     Marisa Kirisame
6. Koishi Komeiji -
   Youmu Konpaku
   • [Spellcard/Night] Change Compulsive Fixed Bodyguard target, both Koishi and new target are bulletproof for the night, informed if anyone attacked Koishi or new target
     
   • [Spellcard] Unknown
     
   • [Active/Night] Compulsive Fixed Bodyguard, target gets Strongwilled if Koishi dies at night
     
   • [Passive] Immune to Day Abilities, including vote multipliers
7. Eternity Larva -

   Seiran
   
   
8. Ichirin Kumoi -

   Medicine Melancholy
   
   
9. Daiyousei -
   Daiyousei
   • [Spellcard] Unknown, used it to check Yuuka/Reisen/Koishi d1
     
   • [Spellcard] Unknown
     
   • [Active/Night] Redirect all actions targeting her to her target, if her target dies she dies
     
   • [Passive] Come back to life after dying
     
   • Misty Lake Resident [Passive] In a Hood with Kaguya Houraisan
10. Marisa Kirisame -
    Remilia Scarlet
    /
    Flandre Scarlet
    • [Spellcard] Unknown
      
    • [Spellcard] Unknown
      
    • [Active] Unknown
      
    • [Passive] Unknown
      
    • Scarlet Devil Mansion [Passive] You are in a neighborhood with Sanae Kochiya
11. Clownpiece -

    Toyosatomimi no Miko
    
    
12. Reisen Udongein Inaba - Unknown, Lunarian
    • [Spellcard] Semi-protective
      
    • [Spellcard] Offset an action by a phase
      
    • [Active] Shut down PT
      
    • [Passive] Ascetic
      
    • [Passive] In a neighborhood with Eternity Larva at night
13. Sanae Kochiya -

    Patchouli Knowledge

Known scum abilities:

• Spellcard Blocker - Used on Sanae N1
  
• Passive ability disabler - Used on Kagerou N1 and Kaguya N2

Tenshi doable
Aya claimed Stealthy so not really an important passive
Yuuka claimed Super Miller so not really an important passive
Kaguya doable
Kagerou had the flavor reveal so not really an important passive since it already happened
Koishi claimed Immune to Day Abilities so only needed if scum had day abilities that they needed to use on Koishi (and since she was getting shot this can be ruled out)
Larva was scum
Ichirin was dead
Dai doable
Marisa is Marisa
Clownpiece doable
Reisen claimed Ascetic so can't passive disable
Sanae doable maybe? would depend on what she claimed in the hood

That leaves the list as Tenshi/Kaguya/Dai/Clownpiece/Sanae for people who'd be getting disabled

[Yuuka Kazami]

N1: Used contagious watcher spell card on Clown Piece, missed because they commuted. Was visited by Tenshi and provided a buff that allows me to use my self watch twice on the same day (which is, sadly, useless).
N2: Self watched: visited by Clown Piece.
N3: Can't do anything. Marisa states they role-blocked me and I would be notified unless I was scum. However, their ability does not notify the player if they have used up their spell card. I had made multiple previous posts letting people know my ability failed and I think 1-2 posts that stated it was a spell card and I had full claimed before then and made it clear that I had 1 spell card, 1 active, 1 passive and that was it.
N4: Self watch: Visited by Kagerou who says they received a sunflower through Burglery they have not told me what it does.

Abilities:
1. Spell card: Contagious watcher - Target a player, if they are visited that day I am notified that they were visited in addition that player is informed they have a flower (I can choose what type of flower it is, the default is a sunflower, I did not specify the type of flower I wanted it to be when I used the ability), the players that visited them also get a flower and are watched the next day and this can spread again if they're visited.
2. Active: Self-watch, non-consecutive.
3. Anyone that visits me receives a message that says I'm scum.

[Yuuka Kazami]

I'm Wakasagihime

• [Spellcard/Night] - Effects targetting me resolve as if Strongwilled, get 3 fish total when combined with singing
  
• [Spellcard/Night] - Doctor a single person per two fish
  
• [Active/Night] - Sing to get 1 fish (Resolves before my spellcards)
  
• [Passive] - Invisible to action investigatives
  
• [Passive] - In a hood with Daiyousei

[Yuuka Kazami]

You can fill in the blanks with flips from the mod.

If you wanna know what happened last day phase get a warm cup of cocoa and a blanket and I’ll regale you with the tale that can be summarized as :reading is technology.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Aya is just confirmed town because the day would have been over awhile ago if they weren’t lol.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Well, Reisen and Kagerou haven’t led any wagons. And at least one of those player’s is scum.

So you are at maximum half right Reisen.

Whether it’s Kaguya actively controlling the eliminations or the scum team really was just out of sight of mind is difficult to know for sure without, you know, the game ending.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Finally, someone quotes my posts.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Well, Reisen and Kagerou haven’t led any wagons. And at least one of those player’s is scum.

So you are at maximum half right Reisen.

Whether it’s Kaguya actively controlling the eliminations or the scum team really was just out of sight of mind is difficult to know for sure without, you know, the game ending.

Well that's speaking from your POV but I have no knowledge of your alignment at all, so it's not like I can do anything with a statement like this.

So’s speculation on how scum approached the game.i can’t do anything with that. Unless you sell it. And you didn’t, but took time to disagree with it, probably because it suits your position.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Like, it was just an opinion, why put an opinion out there and why that particular one when you’ve got reading to do.

[Yuuka Kazami]

I wasn't expecting to even recognize anyone but it just sort of happened and it's going to be coloring my read because I think they're an extremely capable scum player.

That’s interesting since if you play mafia much on this site you’re probably going to notice some distinctive posting.

I’m surprised you could figure out who Kaguya was given they kept it all to mech speculation and no one, on this website, does it quite that way to knowledge. Maybe they dropped a catch phrase or something very common to them that I missed.

This feels unnatural.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Yes. Kagerou can still be town in that world. Because I’m scum. And I think it wouldn’t be *too* far-fetched for a Reisen/me team to exist (no this isn’t tongue and cheek and some kind of hint, this is hypothetical world)

In terms of omgus.
Eh. Already think reisen is scum and they’re creating a town read that is either obviously wrong from my pov or they’re scum. I still read what they had to say about Kagerou because unlike you they actually cased a player that it doesn’t benefit them to case.

[Yuuka Kazami]

I wasn't expecting to even recognize anyone but it just sort of happened and it's going to be coloring my read because I think they're an extremely capable scum player.

If you know my main you'd also know I'm very obviously in my townrange and outside my scumrange

There aren’t a lot of players I associate with town and scum ranges. That are also willing to keep the mech gimmick going even to their detriment, usually because they have a very limited range and lack the self-discipline *to* keep that up.

Also, ‘very good scum player’ with player you think correctly meta read you and ‘I’m out of my scum range’ doth not compute.

[Yuuka Kazami]

If Kagerou lurks to deadline and/or doesn't get replaced I might literally scream

Nth

[Yuuka Kazami]

I also find that sort of meta spec in an anon game while very fitting(because I do it to) to be along the same lines of creating a problem in search of no solution.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Are you certain they even correctly identified you.
All they said is that you’re a good scum player. That’s not very specific, but you’re running the extra 20 miles with the ball here.

[Yuuka Kazami]

Aight.

[Yuuka Kazami]

You weren’t expecting to get main read after 800 posts? By a replace in?

[Yuuka Kazami]

Unnatural meaning that your focus is in the wrong place compared to what I’d expect a player’s attention to be directed to.

A hero complex and dropping an opinion about how the scum team got here before even reading the game or how we got here is *unnatural*