Mini Normal 2334: trees (Day 5)

[Thomith]

VOTE: Rationalmadman

The name is already contradictory, just like medical license!

I don't really understand why people do this early in DP1s unless they will gang as 3 out of the 13 here at least. It is junk activity and can hurt Town a lot more than help.

I am replying to you as you chose me, yes, however this is a habit many develop in Mafia and especially in a setup with 13, which is not 'mini' in a real sense, all these equate to is hellos aimed at people to achieve nothing.

My username can refer to different contexts of rationality and madness but in Mafiascum context it refers to that I calculate a lot but seem crazy to others I am sure. It isn't a contradiction.

I agree that RVS votes don't usually mean a whole lot, but I don't think they necessarily hurt town.

The whole stage is honestly the same thing as you are suggesting, generating conversations until people start saying things that are substantial, allowing us to progress the phase of the game into something more meaningful.

I remember when I played before there was the whole RVS/RQS argument, and I did always prefer RQS, but it seems like the site seems to have settled more on RVS at this point.

[Thomith]

Anyways quick ice breaker time since the only person I've played with before is camelcasedsnivy

How familiar is everyone with the other players in the game?

What would you say your playstyle as town/scum is like?

I've played with Elements, Hu Tao, Kay, cCS, Dann (he is who made the quote in my sig ) and ming before.
I think I've played the most games with Hu Tao, with 5 completed games.

As town I tend to question people a lot to gauge their reactions, try to understand people's mindsets and figure out if I think this mindset is more likely from town!them or scum!them.
I tend to be a more PoE player, attempting to figure out who I think is town and work backwards, rather than figuring out who I necessarily suspect right away.

As scum, I tend to try and play similarly to how town!me played in previous games with people I recognise on the playerlist.
If there was something in a previous game that made somebody on the playerlist think I was probably town, I try to replicate it (this has gotten me caught before, so maybe it's not the best thing - somebody alt slipped, and knowing I played like a VI in a previous game I played, my tone shifted to being more erratic than how calculated I was before that, and I got executed because the shift in play was not subtle at all)

[Thomith]

What I'd do instead is say we keep talking and gang on people as 3 to 4 to pressure them. It can be me, it can be others. Nobody should react until 3 to 4 votes are on them in a setup this big, not on DP1.

Pressure is from votes to eliminate fundamentally (or night actions, sure).

All other pressure is an illusion.

Idk how the right way to talk is but voting and saying silly stuff only benefits scum, not town. Always.

Regarding the bolded, to confirm, do you believe that there is no other way to apply pressure other than voting?

[Thomith]

expecting the two of us to lead town to another perfect win ccs

Hmm.

Probably a joke, but I'm not too sure how much I'm liking this post.

[Thomith]

expecting the two of us to lead town to another perfect win ccs

Hmm.

Probably a joke, but I'm not too sure how much I'm liking this post.

why

It feels like it could be performative in some way.
Either "look at me I'm town" or if SaltiestCactus does flip scum, immediately buddying to cCS to make cCS look bad.

[Thomith]

VOTE: Elements

[Thomith]

let PRs do things, let mafia play in the dark guessing who to use their powers on, the gamble is Town gains more than Mafia does from the blind NP1 shots in the dark than any extended period DP1. It's true we may end up voting off mafia but at what cost of leaking reads based on who did or didn't say what?

Leak nothing, let DP2 reports and claims dictate how things flow. If a strong PR dies NP1 that's bad luck and frankly DP1 random bandwagons are as much luck too but reveal more to mafia regarding how others respond.

We are also starving ourselves of information by not fading somebody day 1.

Even if we don't flip scum today, when we hopefully have some people flipped red later in the day, noting how people have voted, what wagons formed, whether scum got wagoned day 1 and then a counterwagon formed to get heat off of them, all of this is information we don't get if we just opt to immediately not eliminate during the first day.

[Thomith]

VOTE: Elements

<3

Why did you vote Madman?

[Thomith]

VOTE: Elements

<3

Why did you vote Madman?

I disagree with basically everything he's said and then he vote no lim

Do you think what he is saying is scum motivated?

[Thomith]

VOTE: Elements

<3

Why did you vote Madman?

why did you vote me?

because I feel like your vote was opportunistic, due to the ease in which I feel a vote on Madman could be explained away due to them having a non standard belief, that I don't think is necessarily scum indicative.

[Thomith]

VOTE: DrNickRivera

I think if RationalMadman truly holds the (wrong) belief that not eliminating Day 1 is best, he’s likely going to have a similar entrance as either alignment.

Town reading him over it feels like you might have too much information

I feel like reading Madman either way (scum or town) based on their posts is strange tbh.
Either, TMI like you are suggesting on a potential town read, or opportunistic on a scum read.

[Thomith]

VOTE: Elements

<3

Why did you vote Madman?

why did you vote me?

because I feel like your vote was opportunistic, due to the ease in which I feel a vote on Madman could be explained away due to them having a non standard belief, that I don't think is necessarily scum indicative.

why do I need to be oppertunistic on day 2?

The vote just seems weird, I don't understand a strong enough read either way to scumread/townread the Madman slot enough to either vote or defend it based on what has happened.

[Thomith]

you've played with me before, do you not rememebr how much of a reactionary player I am?

I'm not sure that this confirms your alignment either way though?

[Thomith]

you've played with me before, do you not rememebr how much of a reactionary player I am?

I'm not sure that this confirms your alignment either way though?

It doesn't
so by your smae reasoning on questioning me voting Rational for nothing alignment indicative, have you not done the same thing by voting me?

Good Point.
UNVOTE:

[Thomith]

you've played with me before, do you not rememebr how much of a reactionary player I am?

I'm not sure that this confirms your alignment either way though?

It doesn't
so by your smae reasoning on questioning me voting Rational for nothing alignment indicative, have you not done the same thing by voting me?

Good Point.
UNVOTE:

I will say, scum are usually more worried about the optics of a vote

If there ever was a sketch unvote, I present exhibit A

Also, who is an alt? They allow that sort of thing around here??

If you find my unvote suspicious, why don't you pressure me, rather than just throw shade?

[Thomith]

you've played with me before, do you not rememebr how much of a reactionary player I am?

I'm not sure that this confirms your alignment either way though?

It doesn't
so by your smae reasoning on questioning me voting Rational for nothing alignment indicative, have you not done the same thing by voting me?

Good Point.
UNVOTE:

I will say, scum are usually more worried about the optics of a vote

If there ever was a sketch unvote, I present exhibit A

Also, who is an alt? They allow that sort of thing around here??

I don't understand why you jumped to this conclusion, rather than think about it just me admitting I could have been wrong?

[Thomith]

Dr Nick is town.

Could you explain any of these reads?

[Thomith]

It’s really odd to narrate your actions by saying “if I do this it would look like scum so I’m not going to”…why do you think that would make people townread you when that same logic could be given to the reason both town and scum wouldn’t do it - to look town.

Oh you mean why I won't vote Elements. It's not only that. I genuinely believe NoElim is best. elements as Scum will claim a PR when eventually voted. As real PR she will do the same. As Vanilla that's still a Townie. It's lose-lose, since it will force a PR to CC her if she is scum or have revealed a significant thing to scum if not.

There is very likely a roleblocker of sorts in a setup this big ('mini' is semantics this isn't a small game). There is huge reason to just NoElim and let's PRs do their thing with Mafia having toe guess so much.

Why would a PR CC in this scenario in a closed setup?

[Thomith]

We also can't be sure that any PR's we might have will be able to outright get any information, because of this being a closed setup.

[Thomith]

It’s really odd to narrate your actions by saying “if I do this it would look like scum so I’m not going to”…why do you think that would make people townread you when that same logic could be given to the reason both town and scum wouldn’t do it - to look town.

Oh you mean why I won't vote Elements. It's not only that. I genuinely believe NoElim is best. elements as Scum will claim a PR when eventually voted. As real PR she will do the same. As Vanilla that's still a Townie. It's lose-lose, since it will force a PR to CC her if she is scum or have revealed a significant thing to scum if not.

There is very likely a roleblocker of sorts in a setup this big ('mini' is semantics this isn't a small game). There is huge reason to just NoElim and let's PRs do their thing with Mafia having toe guess so much.

Why would a PR CC in this scenario in a closed setup?

If someone claims either your role or a very similar PR, this is a normal setup meaning neither bastard modding nor realistic similar roles should be considered valid by you and not CCing early is gamethrowing as later you'll not be believed unless you were somehow revealed or killed.

I would like to direct you to Mini 2321, where there was both a Town Neapolitan and Town Role Cop in the game, both very similar roles that we doubted would exist together and threw off all of our setup spec that wound up costing up the game.

[Thomith]

I am down to vote anyone that isn't Grovyle or Dann. If we're going to bandwagon, others lack Towntelling in my eyes.

I've changed my mind
Come VOTE: Thomith
Will help end the day

Why do you think it's a good idea to end the day quickly?

[Thomith]

I am down to vote anyone that isn't Grovyle or Dann. If we're going to bandwagon, others lack Towntelling in my eyes.

I've changed my mind
Come VOTE: Thomith
Will help end the day

Why do you think it's a good idea to end the day quickly?

Did you reply to the right person?

I already explained why if you mean me.

I replied to who I meant to.

[Thomith]

I feel like being able to analyse how wagons are formed or deformed during the day is more beneficial in the long run for us than speed no limming, where mafia get a kill, and town may also not use their PRs correctly, as they don't have anything to base their choices off of.

When we start getting flips, seeing how wagons formed and deformed does provide us information we can use to help solve the game.

[Thomith]

I won’t be voting Elements D1 unless something spectacularly scummy comes from her which I don’t anticipate.

just gimmi some time xx

I’d actually be really funny if you did something that pinged me so hard that I did a 180 like “get her outttt!!! I’ll drive the bus!!!!” lol

while you're here can i ask about your thought's on thomith?

Since you're insinuating your play in previous games should make it clear you're town here, can you explain how my play differs to how it usually does as town to make you suspect me?

[Thomith]

Outing role DP1 for no reason is antitown as fuck. Anyone who is not disgusted at that is just as bad unless they scumread it instead of assuming Town outed.

Oberbaalysing wagons is nonsense. Town unvote scum during DP1 wagons all the time and vice versa for joining wagons on Town. This is why later votes mean far more especially in clear this person vs that person dynamics. There, voting analysis begins to matter more.

Side note, very weird choice of words for Kayjayqueue to say driving a bus since that is solely used for one scum betraying a partner. Not sure what to even think of it as it is such a brutal slip it cannot be a real one.

Let's say we have 2 main wagons day 1.

Player A flips scum Day 3 in this example, and was a major wagon on Day 1.
Player A is almost executed, but near the end of the day, the wagon shifts onto Town Player B.

After Player A does end up flipping scum later, we now have that piece of information that we can analyse to see a) why this wagon flip happened and b) We have information of the main people that drove the wagon away from Scum Player A, and try and figure out why, potentially finding another scumbuddy in the process.

[Thomith]

Side note, very weird choice of words for Kayjayqueue to say driving a bus since that is solely used for one scum betraying a partner. Not sure what to even think of it as it is such a brutal slip it cannot be a real one.

If that is true, I honestly didn’t know the implication of that wording. I was just trying to make a joke. You could look through my other games and search that phrase, I’m fairly certain I’ve never encountered it. I’m still technically “new” so there are a few things I’m not completely familiar with when it comes to acronyms and keywords. If you’re going to scumread me for being uninformed on the lingo, okay, but it wasn’t a slip or whatever you’re insinuating.

https://epicmafia.fandom.com/wiki/Bus
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Bussing

So I thought bus and wagon (I think I’ve also used the word train) were interchangeable words to describe people getting in a vote. I honestly had no idea. Thank you for the links I feel pretty dumb at the moment and I don’t really understand why no one else has corrected me on this faux pas.

I'll be honest I outright didn't notice it.
I'm not sure how outdated these are but these may be useful too:
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... y:Glossary
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... reviations

[Thomith]

I can't see a 'town Awesomeming' attacking me with ridicule there rather than with exploring the very idea he said he'd prove wrong.

I also noticed that he was rapid to switch from saying I'm town to saying oops he's not a noob and isn't Town just like he tried to say the interaction with me and Kayjay is weird and then goes 'oh stop talking mafia theory you're wasting effort and it's annoying and it was the length of reply'. Absolutely nothing from Awesomeming seems Towny.

I am also less sure Nick Riviera is Town but what Nick Riviera does that I prefer is he never pretended to give a shit what I'm writing. There is a significant difference between that and pretending to read it later and combat it while failing to. Lazy town that don't want to read and like to ridicule is still townreadable it's to do with consistency. Awesomeming tries to appear friendly while trying to rile others up, pretends to defend others while laying the foundation to scumread them and then backs out of it when attacked. Everything about it is textbook scum behaviour, nothing about Awesomeming's series of activity this day phase reads as Town to me. I am either massively wrong or right on the money.

If you were massively wrong, how would this change your reads/the direction you'd look to go in?

[Thomith]

I wanna vote in Gibdo/Salty/Rational/Hu today
In no particular order

What changed from you wanting to vote me?

it's not really the initial vote but the trajectory afterwards

people called it like opportunistic but i think an actually opportunistic!scum vote would have invented some reason for Rational to be scum, elements fully admits that she isn't voting Rational because she necessarily thinks he's scum, at least not until later in the game

Hard disagree.

Throwing a vote on someone then reasoning it away as not a scumread means you're jumping on an easy vote (in this case), then explaining it in a way where you don't need to be accountable for scumreading a town player if they flip town.

This is a scum tell, not a town tell.

[Thomith]

This RationalMadman wagon stinks

[Thomith]

I wanna vote in Gibdo/Salty/Rational/Hu today
In no particular order

Why do you Townread awesomeming

Why do you assume that not scumread implies townread?

Do you think this assumption is AI from RationalMadman?

Also @RationalMadman do you prefer us to call you RationalMadman? Is Madman okay? Is RM okay? How would you prefer us to refer to you, since you implied you didn't like being referred to as Rational.

[Thomith]

Also @RationalMadman do you prefer us to call you RationalMadman? Is Madman okay? Is RM okay? How would you prefer us to refer to you, since you implied you didn't like being referred to as Rational.

I thought that was because I said "Radical" instead of "Rational"

Maybe. I was half asleep when I read that message the first time

[Thomith]

Acknowledging the wagon on me.

Just got home from work, let me eat, then ill set down and respond to everything.

I don't know why me claiming is being brought up, as I don't think I'm in range for a claim to be requested of me yet, but let me know if I'm wrong.

[Thomith]

I don't know why me claiming is being brought up, as I don't think I'm in range for a claim to be requested of me yet, but let me know if I'm wrong.

Rational is over reacting to everything as usual

I'm at E-3 right?

[Thomith]

Cool. I'm cooking, will be back to respond after.

[Thomith]

Cool. I'm cooking, will be back to respond after.

Wouldn't be so calm if I were you.

This is a game, I can take care of my real life needs first before sitting down and catching up on the game thread

[Thomith]

Spoiler: Long Post

Awesoming came in clarifying to default me to Town for advocating for no elimination. This was followed by clarifying that it's Towny because it's uninformed and a noob thing (implying both that he now has grounds to vote me later for being wrong and that he is calling me stupid/ignorant without directly attacking me while seeming to side with me).

After this, Awesoming suddenly realises I'm not new. So, why say that then? After realising I'm not new, he leaves it dismissed rather than directly engaging me and attacking my logic (which is infallible and can't be argued against, sorry to flex it but it's true and I think he realised this as he read it but left it for later).

In fact, the strangest aspect of all was awesoming having the time to still make some posts but not have the time to read my posts and attack my sound logic for the no-elimination. It is exactly the kind of 'haven't got time sorry' post that Scum that wants to get away with not directly engaging people after saying 'this person is kind of wrong that person is kind of scummy but I don't have time to fully explore, peace out' do during DP1s, laying the groundwork to lead on anyone convenient later and really having sided with 0 people while appearing to.

1. Your first paragraph is incoherent to me; what are you even trying to say?
2. I said that I realized that you weren't new because I realized that you weren't new. If I realized that fact, why wouldn't I post that I made a mistake when initially making the townread on you? I certainly want to clarify my position on you especially if I think my previous logic is wrong. I didn't attack your logic because your logic has been attacked already. By numerous people. And I didn't want to dwell on the argument because it was a waste of time.
3. I was very busy traveling (hence the helpful v/la tag next to my username) and only skimmed your posts; I skimmed the posts because I wanted to stay at least slightly in the loop when I have time to do so, but I didn't have time to fully read. I came in an engaged with the thread as well as I can. Would you have suggested that I simply don't post instead? In fact, my posts were highly theoretical (along the lines of "generally, these people are town") because I didn't know the specifics and I still had a way to contribute, and that was to post this kind of generality - before realizing that I had overlooked one part of the issue. It's funny that you characterized my posts as "haven't got time sorry" scumposting when I genuinely just did not have time

I both scumread you and you confronted me. I don't know why other people are passive, I am here to rip the Scum to pieces as they beg for mercy. That's how I approach Mafia. If other Townies get in the way of that they meet the same fierceness from me too. To temper this and avoid rule violations and stay calm is a combination most can't pull off so they either tone everything passive or try to play nice.

Streams of consciousness mockery of my high effort posts, which only Thomith is equalling effort of is not surprising Id then get stern or annoyed at you criticising both me and Kayjay and trying to frame us as scum.

I have probably the highest ratio of useful contributions Vs useless this game of any player here. You however said you'd read my posts and attack the logic later and never ever did.

As for the streams of consciousness remark, you aren't exactly wrong but I can't explain how other posts compare without insulting others. My posts tend to be productive if at times for nothing more than the chain events they set off in replies. If that is an issue for you, I couldn't care less and you can scumread me for being highly contributive in a way you don't like all you want. I have already explained why I scumread you anyway and am down to vote you off even.

1. Thank you for explaining your playstyle - something I never even asked for. I do not care that you have an aggressive playstyle that is not what I meant at all. I was referencing the way you are writing and articulating what you are saying, which is different than the way you are interacting with the thread.
2. What's the point of using the word "mockery"? I was not mocking; I was simply making an observation. Your posts come off to me as stream of consciousness. I said very clearly in my post "kinda meme" which means in no way was I intending to actually push that, so I do not see where you are coming from with the "trying to frame [you] as scum"
3. You most certainly do not have a high proportion of contribution. Most of your posts have been caught up with the annoying argument about no hang d1 and if you seriously think you're convincing anyone with any of your posts you're just wrong. It's funny that you think that your posts are contributive though. Furthermore, I never said that I'd attack your posts' logic so uhh.

You seem way too defensive over something that is not that serious. If you actually thought that me scumreading over

writing

style was something worth responding to so strongly (even bordering on OMGUS)- wow. Kind of furthers my point in my post saying "too small of a deal for that big of a conversation"

263, 265, 266 (ISO 64-66) are all more examples of overreaction on rational's part. The whole progression on me seems like trying to OMGUS without it actually seemingly like OMGUS.

I can't see a 'town Awesomeming' attacking me with ridicule there rather than with exploring the very idea he said he'd prove wrong.

I also noticed that he was rapid to switch from saying I'm town to saying oops he's not a noob and isn't Town just like he tried to say the interaction with me and Kayjay is weird and then goes 'oh stop talking mafia theory you're wasting effort and it's annoying and it was the length of reply'. Absolutely nothing from Awesomeming seems Towny.

I am also less sure Nick Riviera is Town but what Nick Riviera does that I prefer is he never pretended to give a shit what I'm writing. There is a significant difference between that and pretending to read it later and combat it while failing to. Lazy town that don't want to read and like to ridicule is still townreadable it's to do with consistency. Awesomeming tries to appear friendly while trying to rile others up, pretends to defend others while laying the foundation to scumread them and then backs out of it when attacked. Everything about it is textbook scum behaviour, nothing about Awesomeming's series of activity this day phase reads as Town to me. I am either massively wrong or right on the money.

1. Again, I never said I'd prove anything wrong.
2. Nice IIOA.
3. Literally give me quotes for any of these claims:
"tries to appear friendly while trying to rile others up"
"pretends to defend others while laying the foundation to scumread them"
"backs out of it when attacked"

TL;DR rational is pushing me on unfounded logic and false evidence, after overreacting and then OMGUSing to a meme-y scumread I had on him.

VOTE: Rational

I don't mind this vote, as the reasonings are explained, and it does seem as if there is more of an effort to sort, and not just a lazy way to vote someone who is voting/suspecting you.

i dont buy the reasons for elements being town here, feels like cope more than actual analysis (or straight up BS from certain people) - but awesomeming's post has made me consider an angle i had previously discarded(that i'm personally weak to) and uh kinda awkward but they have a point im giving rational too little credit and shortcutting my read on the basis that i should not respect them which I tend to do too often

VOTE: RationalMadman
lets see how he handles one of his townreads turning on him at the very least

To me, it's unclear if this vote was due to a scumread on the RationalMadman slot, or just made out of annoyance, which I dislike - this was followed by the below vote:

VOTE: rationalmadman

This naked vote after the wagon seemed to be beginning to grow gives me pause, especially as the RationalMadman slot seems to be a controversial slot, that regardless of alignment, I feel will very likely either draw scum in if the slot is town, as it's an easy way to fade a mislim without having to be accountable for an incorrect read.

If the slot is scum and is facing heat, there is still a decent chance that RationalMadman ends up getting executed, and upon flipping scum, would give easy towncred for any scum on the wagon, and with how polarising the slot was, I'm not sure how much information that execution would actually give us.

For this reason, votes that are either unexplained, or seem to be for reasons that aren't to do with suspecting him are the reasons why my gut reaction was to dislike this wagon.

This is the same reason I didn't particularly like Elements vote on the slot early on, especially since at the time of her vote, I don't think the slot had done anything particularly AI.

do you think I’m scared of you hu tao?

I'm not sure what the point of this post was?

VOTE: hu tao

I have too much respect for you to think you are making these posts as town

Could you ellaborate on this please? Why do you think Hu Tao's posts are scum indicative (or at the very least, not town indicative).

[Thomith]

actually on top of thomith taking saltiest's remark about me and him seriously I'm looking at his early interactions with elements and it does NOT look town motivated

VOTE: Thomith

Why do you think my early interactions with elements aren't town motivated?

VOTE: Thomith

Thomith can you tell me which votes on Rational you think “stink” and why?

Explained in my previous post, is this a "providing pressure to clarify something" vote, or are you scumreading me?

I think I've settled on you likely being town but I think Thomith might be whiteknighting you a bit too hard

gun to head I think the wagon on you is town driven right now

Again, I have explained my "whiteknighting" in my previous post, but let me know if you want any further clarity.

VOTE: Thomith

What changed from 457?

[Thomith]

actually on top of thomith taking saltiest's remark about me and him seriously

I'm looking at his early interactions with elements and it does NOT look town motivated

VOTE: Thomith

I genuinely don't know what you are referring to with the bolded statement.

[Thomith]

I'm not sure what the point of this post was?

hu tao said that she thought I was scum trying to get her out early because in previous games where she was town and I was scum I had been eliminated

which is like, factually true, but that also implies that I'm for some reason specifically afraid of hu tao "catching me," and I was dubious that hu tao would actually believe that

Gotcha, I missed 424 originally, this makes more sense.

[Thomith]

I am very confused as to what could prompt people to vote Thomith, tbh

Dann's vote on me I feel makes sense, since he had a genuine concern based on something I hadn't explained.

I want clarity on what cCS was saying in the post that he voted me in, before I'm able to really read that.

Same with Elements, but I want to see what she says before commenting there because I don't want to put words in her mouth.

[Thomith]

I'm concerned that there is a world where RationalMadman is actually scum, and if he does flip scum, his aggressive defense of me after I defended him earlier is an attempt to frame me later.

[Thomith]

Actually, thought about it some more......this is just scum trying to bully my read

VOTE: Thomith

Ping!
But also, am I still your biggest scumread?

[Thomith]

gun to head, do you have a read on Rational right now, Thomith?

Town.

My instinct says that scum likely don't draw this much attention to themselves this early. I understand this may be more of a playstyle thing, and this logic can be quite WIFOMy, but the fact that a lot of the early votes, or most recent wagon votes weren't necessarily due to scumreading Rational, and seemed more votes out of annoyance or general disagreement, I think this compounds into Rational being an easy wagon, which makes me inclined to think he is a scapegoat vote, so is more likely to be town.

[Thomith]

gun to head, do you have a read on Rational right now, Thomith?

Town.

My instinct says that scum likely don't draw this much attention to themselves this early. I understand this may be more of a playstyle thing, and this logic can be quite WIFOMy, but the fact that a lot of the early votes, or most recent wagon votes weren't necessarily due to scumreading Rational, and seemed more votes out of annoyance or general disagreement, I think this compounds into Rational being an easy wagon, which makes me inclined to think he is a scapegoat vote, so is more likely to be town.

On a separate note if you are Town, I am over 80% sure that one of dannflor, Elements or Snivy is scum. There was something totally out of where with how they just piled on you there. However, I believe ONLY one of the three is given how it went down.

I don't understand why of them suddenly voted you, seemed to be taking advantage of many outing suspicion on you (including me).

FWIW I don't think it's Dann.

[Thomith]

Anyone not voting salty can they tell me why salty could be town?

Haven't seen enough yet.
Seems like he is making an effort to solve in 409 and 410

[Thomith]

Anyone not voting salty can they tell me why salty could be town?

Haven't seen enough yet.
Seems like he is making an effort to solve in 409 and 410

Thoughts on gibdo?

Again, I feel like I need to see more before solidifying a read, but again, they seem to be attempting to solve and giving reasons for their reads.

I am more confident to say a tentative townread for now, while I'd say Salty is still Null.

[Thomith]

DrNick is maybe town

Why?

[Thomith]

VOTE: cCS
I think I dislike this vote on me the most.

[Thomith]

Based off of vibes I feel like Dann/Gibdo are either both town or both scum. Leaning town right now though I think.

[Thomith]

Why do you think my early interactions with elements aren't town motivated?

it seemed like you were trying to get a vote on elements for the sake of voting elements, not for actually scumhunting. take 225 for instance.

as for the first part of my post, i had played with saltiestcactus on another forum and for some reason you were trying to turn that into a read.

I genuinely don't remember doing this but I might be tripping.

[Thomith]

VOTE: Elements

<3

Why did you vote Madman?

VOTE: Elements

<3

Why did you vote Madman?

I disagree with basically everything he's said and then he vote no lim

Do you think what he is saying is scum motivated?

VOTE: Elements

<3

Why did you vote Madman?

why did you vote me?

because I feel like your vote was opportunistic, due to the ease in which I feel a vote on Madman could be explained away due to them having a non standard belief, that I don't think is necessarily scum indicative.

VOTE: Elements

<3

Why did you vote Madman?

why did you vote me?

because I feel like your vote was opportunistic, due to the ease in which I feel a vote on Madman could be explained away due to them having a non standard belief, that I don't think is necessarily scum indicative.

why do I need to be oppertunistic on day 2?

The vote just seems weird, I don't understand a strong enough read either way to scumread/townread the Madman slot enough to either vote or defend it based on what has happened.

I feel like these posts do show me trying to sort Elements and find out their reasons for their Madman vote that felt weird to me, so insinuating that I was not attempting to scumhunt, and was just voting Elements "just because" is false.

[Thomith]

expecting the two of us to lead town to another perfect win ccs

Hmm.

Probably a joke, but I'm not too sure how much I'm liking this post.

why

It feels like it could be performative in some way.
Either "look at me I'm town" or if SaltiestCactus does flip scum, immediately buddying to cCS to make cCS look bad.

Gotcha you were talking about this post.

A comment about one post seeming weird isn't trying to turn things into a read.
I still stand by this post coming off as weird/not understanding the point of it. On its own, it doesn't warrant a mead, but if later on there are further weird interactions, I felt it important to note.

[Thomith]

I'm concerned that there is a world where RationalMadman is actually scum, and if he does flip scum, his aggressive defense of me after I defended him earlier is an attempt to frame me later.

What bizarre phrasing.

Bizarre how?

[Thomith]

Ugh I’m feeling very off about one person that I usually always feel good about so I guess for now I’ll just listen to that gut feeling.

VOTE: Hu Tao

Since time has passed since this post now, do you still suspect Hu Tao? Why/Why Not?

VOTE: cCS
I think I dislike this vote on me the most.

also why exactly? I'm the only one who didn't wagon you for the sake of wagoning you

I'm biased but I believe you insinuating that I was not attempting to solve, when I feel like I have been, rubbed me the wrong way. The other votes were about disagreeing with my reasoning, or attempting to apply pressure, but I felt like your vote was for a reason I believed to be false.

I think this is scum camel. As town I remember him being different

Could you go into more details as to how?

VOTE: CCS

Why is CCS scum?

There is no use to delay the vote on awesomeming

Except to vote CCS, or Thomith, or Hu

Yes I have turned on Hu

Do you believe Me/CCS/Hu Tao could be scum together? Or do you just think there is a scum between us?

look rational if i was scum and wanted to get town read by you, believe me, i could

Yeah that’s what scares me most lol

What's your read on Dann?

I can get behind a KayJay vote if anyone wanted to start a wagon there

Why do you suspect Kay?

I think Kay has been basically going with the flow of the game. And being sus of whoever is being voted in the moment. I think that's why that leads to her scum list not really sounding good

I don't think that's true, as she openly opposed the wagon on me if I remember correctly?

p-edit: I'm not taking out the Kay questions because I'm lazy

[Thomith]

S

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H

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F

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VOTE: Black

Hi Not_Mafia

[Thomith]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Goofball

*poke*

[Thomith]

Hu's scumread on KJQ feels as fake as her scumread on Dann. I understand the concept of wanting to give a replacement a chance to salvage the slot but she disregarded her KJQ scumread so easily. It doesn't feel like a natural reaction to me

I was about to dispute this as a harsh read of the situation, as I didn't think Hu Tao strongly scumread Kay and just felt weird about her, and the unvote made sense if she did genuinely think she would feel more confident reading you later.

I reread the Kay vote though, and that didn't seem to be the case, that felt like a "I'm pretty sure you're scum" reason for a vote.
I think I'm inclined to agree with you because of that.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hu Tao

[Thomith]

FWIW as town or scum I think the Rational wagon is such an easy one for scum to jump onto, either for Town credit for bussing, or just an easy wagon without much accountability afterwards. I want to reread that wagon specifically at some point I think.

[Thomith]

VC 1.08

Thomith (4):

DrNickRiviera 114, camelCasedSnivy 475, Dannflor 477, Elements 483

RationalMadman (3):

Gibdo 292, awesomeming327 412, Grovyle in a Fedora 417

SaltiestCactus23 (1):

Hu Tao 241

Grovyle in a Fedora (1):

SaltiestCactus23 23

awesomeming327 (1):

RationalMadman 266

KayJayQueue (1):

DrippingGoofball 287

DrNickRiviera (1):

KayJayQueue 415

Not Voting:

Thomith 110

With 13 alive it takes 7 to eliminate.

Deadline:

(expired on 2024-04-17 20:15:00)

VC 1.08

RationalMadman (3):

Gibdo 292, awesomeming327 412, Grovyle in a Fedora 417

camelCasedSnivy (3):

Thomith 585, Dannflor 586, Elements 589

Thomith (2):

DrNickRiviera 114, camelCasedSnivy 475

SaltiestCactus23 (1):

Hu Tao 241

Grovyle in a Fedora (1):

SaltiestCactus23 23

awesomeming327 (1):

RationalMadman 266

KayJayQueue (1):

DrippingGoofball 287

DrNickRiviera (1):

KayJayQueue 415

Not Voting:

With 13 alive it takes 7 to eliminate.

Deadline:

(expired on 2024-04-17 20:15:00)

[Thomith]

FWIW as town or scum I think the Rational wagon is such an easy one for scum to jump onto, either for Town credit for bussing, or just an easy wagon without much accountability afterwards. I want to reread that wagon specifically at some point I think.

When was there a wagon on Rational?

Plus a fair few early game votes/unvotes from memory

[Thomith]

I think it's noteworthy that Gibdo seems reluctant to vote for Hu Tao but he apparently had no issue voting for Rational for relatively weak reasons. In 710 he says he's refraining from voting for Hu because he's not confident but I'm having a hard time believing he was confident in his Rational read

Not only is he reluctant to vote for Hu but now he is chainsaw defending her

I have thoughts but don't want to put words into Gibdo's mouth.

[Thomith]

Thomith where are your reads at currently

All over the place I'm struggling to get into this game.

I townread Dann.

I townread ming I think because their "OMGUS" suspicion on Rational did seem like he was trying to solve.

I think Rational may be town because of the amount of resistance he is receiving, but that could be a personality thing which makes me less sure.

I disliked Elements early but feel better about them more recently I think.

I dislike CCS and Nick.
Goofball needs to do more.

I think Dann/Gibdo are probably the same alignment based on how they interacted earlier in Day 1 (I'll find the post where I explained this before)

If Hu Tao is scum maybe Salty is town because of the early scum read Hu Tao had there?

[Thomith]

Based off of vibes I feel like Dann/Gibdo are either both town or both scum. Leaning town right now though I think.

I thought I explained this but I guess I didn't.
I feel like with how Dann explained playing with Gibdo before, and how Gibdo explained playing with Dann before, it felt like they gave quite significant and exact examples, where if one was scum and the other was town, maybe they try less to defend based on a meta read, to allow them to pivot more easily later, without it looking as weird.

[Thomith]

Yeah this wagon grew fast I'm scared.

[Thomith]

Yeah this wagon grew fast I'm scared.

What was your read on hu again?

I struggle to read Hu Tao, so she was sitting at null, but after reading Black/Danns reasoning for suspecting Hu Tao, and rereading the vote on Kay/Unvote on Black, I agreed that it looked suspicious, so this changed to a SL.

[Thomith]

I am getting a lot of town vibes from HT

HT is actually a direct Townread by me rn

I think this has partner equity with Hu if she flips scum. Something is bothering me about this correction, like he wanted to make sure everyone knew that it wasn't just town vibes, it's a firm townread, just in case he ever flips scum and people go looking for his partners in his hedgy reads

I also didn't like the way he had a mild heart attack when I joined the Hu wagon

As lothe as I am to do this, I think Rational would do that about a read on anyone. And similarly with the angst at your vote. Anyone getting to e-3 I get the feeling he would've reacted the same way

VOTE: Hu

If anything, Rational threw a bigger fit when I was at E-3

[Thomith]

The point being, I feel like if you think Rational/Hu have partner equity, you probably should look into the idea that myself/Rational potentially also do, Black.

[Thomith]

I will lead this Town to a surefire victory if you would all just follow me.

K
Hnmmm that's something scum would say.

Aren't you sheeping him?

I change my mind with new evidence, as everyone should.

What changed? Was it just this post?

[Thomith]

I'm so confused

[Thomith]

VOTE: awesomeming
Now have I done more than dgb?

Is this an actual read, or just proving a point?

[Thomith]

Won't be engaging with this gross troll any longer

Have you caught up with the game yet?
What are your other reads besides Hu Tao? (If you've mentioned these before let me know and I'll check your ISO for them)

[Thomith]

is it crazy to want to town read DGB for 838

DGB just feels so like, in her own world

I don't see how being in your own world is AI?

[Thomith]

like I think scum are very intentional about how they are positioning around RationalMadman and DGB doesn’t feel like that

This makes sense.

I feel like it might also be a fair assumption that scum are also potentially varied on their position on RationalMadman as well?

[Thomith]

I quickly skimmed through a RM game just in case where he was scum and yeah he is different here.

you found one that wasn't a replace in?
I had a look and he's different in every game on this site

He replaced into the one I read

Did you look at the town games? They're just as different

They were also years ago.

I feel like my play as town and scum is wildly different to when I last played in 2011/2012.

[Thomith]

Elements as scum benefits massively from extending DP getting PR reads and even ending up with town voted off. Don't be naive.

Elements is not the only person that argued for DP to be extended.
It's what usually happens on this site, so even if you disagree with that stance, which is fair enough, I don't believe it is AI, as pretty much everyone here is used to that style of gameplay as either alignment.

[Thomith]

I have to say I dislike the absolute crap out of Thomith changing to quiet bystander during this despite being super active beforehand. It's like he's enjoying the heat off of his back and being town Vs town as scum.

I am unsure who precisely the third is in that though but Black becomes more likely than Elements in that case.

I was busy irl a lot of yesterday.

[Thomith]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: awesomeming

let's see where this goes.

[Thomith]

Thomith...ActionDan...Awesomeming

1 ultractive overcompensater, 2 lurkers barely trying ..

Hmm.

Thoughts on camel?

I think Town. The reason is that Snivy's wagon and the whole situation seemed like Scum were happy letting it stay that way. The similar thing happened with yours.

Do you believe that all wagons that get to E-2 or E-3 are likely scum motivated/scum letting the wagon happen?

[Thomith]

im ok with flipping awesome as its not the worst poe flip that also resolves the most annoying slot in the game although id rather go hu tao first

He could just be town thats wrong if awesoming is town?
If awesoming is scum then I could probably see this, but otherwise I'm not sure how this solves Madmans slot as well as definitively as you are suggesting.

[Thomith]

Hu Tao (4): Dannflor 606, Grovyle in a Fedora 736,

Black 792, Thomith 869

awesomeming327 (2):

RationalMadman 266, DrippingGoofball 594

We can just lim black and thomith and win.

You'd be wrong, since I'm not scum.

[Thomith]

We lost a neighborizer, well that sucks.

Prediction: awesoming was bus'ed by both their buddies. That slot was more useful as a source of town cred than alive.

I don't understand this assumption?

[Thomith]

I know I said I wanted ActionDan Nick or elements, however I am willing to sucmread Thomith.

Thomith's voting pattern dp1 does seem like scum that first tried to divert away from awesomeming and caved in when Black voted.

I voted before Black did.

[Thomith]

VC 1.FINAL

awesomeming327 (7):

RationalMadman 266, DrippingGoofball 594, Dannflor 1153,

Thomith 1156, Black 1159,

Gibdo 1223, Elements 1261

[Elimination!]

Dannflor (3):

camelCasedSnivy 1001, Hu Tao 1026, DrNickRiviera 1030

Hu Tao (1):

Grovyle in a Fedora 736

RationalMadman (1):

awesomeming327 412

Not Voting:

ActionDan 1012

With 13 alive it takes 7 to eliminate.

Deadline:

(expired on 2024-04-17 20:15:00)

I voted before Black.

I feel like there is a world where the Dann wagon was the counter wagon to save potential scum!Hu Tao.

Dann then being the only other wagon with considerable speed over ming is also probably significant so its probably worth seeing how these wagons formed.

[Thomith]

I know I said I wanted ActionDan Nick or elements, however I am willing to sucmread Thomith.

Thomith's voting pattern dp1 does seem like scum that first tried to divert away from awesomeming and caved in when Black voted.

Can you explain this in more detail? What votes seemed that way? Especially as part of this claim is outright incorrect.

[Thomith]

Elements - unsure
DrippingGoofball - ???
DrNickRiviera - town
RationalMadman - town
Grovyle in a Fedora - idk
Hu Tao - Hu Taown
Black - leaning town
SaltiestCactus23 - scummy
Thomith - unsure I think I want to lean town
camelCasedSnivy - scummy
Dannflor - scum

awesomeming327 - towny

Gibdo - leaning towny

Hu townreads ming here. And not just a lean

Thomith...ActionDan...Awesomeming

1 ultractive overcompensater, 2 lurkers barely trying ..

Hmm.

Thoughts on camel?

It feels like she could be trying to get Rational off of ming here

After this ming starts to get run up and Hu only posts once the entire time:

I agree with Black that awesomeming’s attitude doesn’t really match up with his professed reads

I also think the reaction to his sudden growing wagon is a little too cool

Dannflor doing anything to stay alive today

And then she comes into the day saying she was going to hammer awesome? Her townread?

2 things:

1. I was gonna quick hammer awesome at e-1 but wasn't here. (No one will believe this but it needs to be said)

2. Dann, now that you're in dead thread and see that I'm town, can you agree see why I said I'm scared of trying to read you. Cause i really did think you were scum this game cause what I pointed out.

Could this not just be tunelled Hu Taown?

[Thomith]

I know I said I wanted ActionDan Nick or elements, however I am willing to sucmread Thomith.

Thomith's voting pattern dp1 does seem like scum that first tried to divert away from awesomeming

and caved in when Black voted.

I voted before Black did.

Yeah I messed up there. I think it was Goofball quoting a different vote earlier that got me confused. I knew it was you and Black who voted after Damn and got confused who went first as during the NP I was focusing more on earlier stuff.

I'd still like you to explain the bolded if possible please.

[Thomith]

I know I said I wanted ActionDan Nick or elements, however I am willing to sucmread Thomith.

Thomith's voting pattern dp1 does seem like scum that first tried to divert away from awesomeming

and caved in when Black voted.

I voted before Black did.

Yeah I messed up there. I think it was Goofball quoting a different vote earlier that got me confused. I knew it was you and Black who voted after Damn and got confused who went first as during the NP I was focusing more on earlier stuff.

I'd still like you to explain the bolded if possible please.

As I said, lay out your votes DP1 and justify why you're hunting down CCS and going quiet as Hu Tao Vs Dann, capitalising on it until later, when clearly you scumread awesomeming the whole time if you'd suddenly switch from HT to him.

This assumes you're Town, the part where I say you clearly scumread awesomeming.

I didn't scumread awesomeming, I was sheeping two townreads in you/dann because at that point on the day I was otherwise unsure.

[Thomith]

I know I said I wanted ActionDan Nick or elements, however I am willing to sucmread Thomith.

Thomith's voting pattern dp1 does seem like scum that first tried to divert away from awesomeming

and caved in when Black voted.

I voted before Black did.

Yeah I messed up there. I think it was Goofball quoting a different vote earlier that got me confused. I knew it was you and Black who voted after Damn and got confused who went first as during the NP I was focusing more on earlier stuff.

I'd still like you to explain the bolded if possible please.

As I said, lay out your votes DP1 and justify why you're hunting down CCS and going quiet as Hu Tao Vs Dann, capitalising on it until later, when clearly you scumread awesomeming the whole time if you'd suddenly switch from HT to him.

Must've missed where you said that, my bad.

Hu Tao vs Dann I was mainly quiet because I believe that was the point of the day phase where I was busy irl - ill fact check this though.

Did I not justify my CCS vote when I made it?

I'll go through my ISO later today/tomorrow and rejustify things when I get the chance.

[Thomith]

I know I said I wanted ActionDan Nick or elements, however I am willing to sucmread Thomith.

Thomith's voting pattern dp1 does seem like scum that first tried to divert away from awesomeming

and caved in when Black voted.

I voted before Black did.

Yeah I messed up there. I think it was Goofball quoting a different vote earlier that got me confused. I knew it was you and Black who voted after Damn and got confused who went first as during the NP I was focusing more on earlier stuff.

I'd still like you to explain the bolded if possible please.

As I said, lay out your votes DP1 and justify why you're hunting down CCS and going quiet as Hu Tao Vs Dann, capitalising on it until later, when clearly you scumread awesomeming the whole time if you'd suddenly switch from HT to him.

Must've missed where you said that, my bad.

Hu Tao vs Dann I was mainly quiet because I believe that was the point of the day phase where I was busy irl - ill fact check this though.

Did I not justify my CCS vote when I made it?

I'll go through my ISO later today/tomorrow and rejustify things when I get the chance.

I said this during DP1 to you, when realising you went quiet during the HT Vs Dann thing

Ohh right, when you said it was weird I'd gone inactive?

That genuinely was because I got busy irl around that time frame, but obviously I have no way to prove that/you have no reason to believe me

[Thomith]

@Rational - here were my votes Day 1

VOTE: Elements

I believe I explained this at the time, I felt as if votes on you (Rational), assuming you are town, would have a chance of there having scum within those votes attempting to vote for an easy target due to the polarising nature of your gameplay, while not outright having to explain a read on you either way, being able to justify a vote without really incriminating themselves.
Elements jump on you early gave those vibes for me (however, she later explained things and I moved away from this).

VOTE: cCS
I think I dislike this vote on me the most.

From my POV, I am town. Therefore, I have reason to believe that scum are likely on my wagon in some capacity to push a mislim. In my mind, of the people that did vote me, I felt CCS seemed to be voting me in a way that made me feel as if he was not really trying to solve the game? It was mainly vibes, but his vote on my wagon felt the most weird to me.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Goofball

*poke*

I voted Goofball because they weren't doing much.

Hu's scumread on KJQ feels as fake as her scumread on Dann. I understand the concept of wanting to give a replacement a chance to salvage the slot but she disregarded her KJQ scumread so easily. It doesn't feel like a natural reaction to me

I was about to dispute this as a harsh read of the situation, as I didn't think Hu Tao strongly scumread Kay and just felt weird about her, and the unvote made sense if she did genuinely think she would feel more confident reading you later.

I reread the Kay vote though, and that didn't seem to be the case, that felt like a "I'm pretty sure you're scum" reason for a vote.
I think I'm inclined to agree with you because of that.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hu Tao

I believe this was durinng the Hu Tao vs. Dann part of Day 1, where I had been pretty strongly townreading Dann for most of Day 1, and I do also feel as if I justified my vote on Hu Tao in this post.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: awesomeming

let's see where this goes.

As mentioned, at this point in time I decided to sheep two town reads, in you/dann, as I was not sure what direction I was really going at this point of the day.

[Thomith]

I'd prefer not to feed into an argument that I don't feel is alignment indicative. I don't think it's a good use of time.

[Thomith]

I'd prefer not to feed into an argument that I don't feel is alignment indicative. I don't think it's a good use of time.

Only Scum wants me voted off here, Town doesn't unless unskilled and easily swayed.

If I get voted off it's perfect for Scum as the highest towncred player is long gone, leaving Town in chaos as they wasted an elimination.

I'd agree more if this argument felt entirely game related, but it genuinely doesn't seem that way, at least to me. It feels more born of frustration than anything.

[Thomith]

I'd prefer not to feed into an argument that I don't feel is alignment indicative. I don't think it's a good use of time.

Only Scum wants me voted off here, Town doesn't unless unskilled and easily swayed.

If I get voted off it's perfect for Scum as the highest towncred player is long gone, leaving Town in chaos as they wasted an elimination.

I'd agree more if this argument felt entirely game related, but it genuinely doesn't seem that way, at least to me. It feels more born of frustration than anything.

Read it with zero emotions and it becomes obvious if it's true or false.

I feel like the votes on you were made because of emotions though, so I'm not sure what ignoring that fact achieves?

[Thomith]

atp i wanna say DrNick thomith and gibido are my most confident townreads and then as an extension actiondan if im not being a coward and directly under that is RM and black

actually swap actiondan and black

Kinda the same, outside of Thomith being a confident town read......and Black wouldn't be too confident about as well

Do you have a guilty on Rational?

[Thomith]

i mean ill say it, i strongly think RM is a PR and mafia should 100% kill that slot

wink wink theres a free grovyle PR read

and if its not PR then its scum simple as that

problem solved

Fine, I role copped him and he is a JOAT

DO YOUR WORST SCUM!!!

You have helped Scum narrow down PRs massively by what you just did (unless you are Scum obviously). I am struggling to not violate the insult rule at this point. I'm not replying to you anymore.

Looking at the wiki page I'm pretty sure JOATs aren't possible in simple normals.

[Thomith]

I am tired of pretending i know how to play mafia can you just case it

cases are for nerds

I literally play dnd

omg same!

[Thomith]

I am tired of pretending i know how to play mafia can you just case it

cases are for nerds

I literally play dnd

At least you don't play league or valorant

Hey! I'm also a League and Valorant enjoyer!

[Thomith]

V/LA between 26th-29th April Inclusive

[Thomith]

Anyway don't touch that one DGB, Gibdo off limits

Such weird movement around Gibdo....yet I don't know if I agree more with elements or Dan here

Like I feel like the hooded claim is very convenient......but is also very easily counter claimed, so would scum take that chance?

Can you explain why you think this claim is convenient?

[Thomith]

oh good...

[Thomith]

I'm on Page 20 and I'm tired

Scum is Thomith and probably one of {Black, ActionDan, Gibdo}

I'll try and find out more tomorrow

Out of these maybe I'd vote thomith

Why do you think I'm scum?

[Thomith]

Thomith where are your reads at currently

All over the place I'm struggling to get into this game.

I townread Dann.

I townread ming I think because their "OMGUS" suspicion on Rational did seem like he was trying to solve.

I think Rational may be town because of the amount of resistance he is receiving, but that could be a personality thing which makes me less sure.

I disliked Elements early but feel better about them more recently I think.

I dislike CCS and Nick.
Goofball needs to do more.

I think Dann/Gibdo are probably the same alignment based on how they interacted earlier in Day 1 (I'll find the post where I explained this before)

If Hu Tao is scum maybe Salty is town because of the early scum read Hu Tao had there?

I just find everything Thom says so removed from any indication that he genuinely believes it
These thoughts feel like they were generated upon Black asking for them

I do this as either alignment - When asked for reads I go through my current thoughts and produce the reads I currently have.
They weren't "generated" or made up, I was just prompted for my thoughts so provided them at that point.

[Thomith]

Last 2 scum feels like it's in groyvle, elements, Thom.

Why do you think it's between us?

[Thomith]

I think the expressed CCS vote reasoning is quite lazy as well and boils down to 'lurking is scummy for CCS', and 'interactions with awesomeming are bad', both of which are flawed

Could you point out where CCS lurking was mentioned as the reason why CCS was getting voted?
I feel like this was mentioned as a bad reason by someone else before, but I don't remember this being a reason for the votes.

[Thomith]

I'm happy to talk to anyone who is interested in talking to me instead of about or around me

This is what I've noticed this player list does. They just talk about someone and then run them up

I'm scum. Remember? Why do you care so much? Or is this for more of your scum soliloquy

Grovyle is trying to question you rather than just run you up, and you immediately shut them down?

[Thomith]

I'm happy to talk to anyone who is interested in talking to me instead of about or around me

This is what I've noticed this player list does. They just talk about someone and then run them up

I'm scum. Remember? Why do you care so much? Or is this for more of your scum soliloquy

Grovyle is trying to question you rather than just run you up, and you immediately shut them down?

Cause I think they are scum

Is that not extremely hypocritical?

[Thomith]

I'm happy to talk to anyone who is interested in talking to me instead of about or around me

This is what I've noticed this player list does. They just talk about someone and then run them up

I'm scum. Remember? Why do you care so much? Or is this for more of your scum soliloquy

Grovyle is trying to question you rather than just run you up, and you immediately shut them down?

ok to be fair I did try to run them up earlier, its more klick's incredulous defense with little reasoning had me change tact.

Sure, but Klick is complaining about this, then refusing to acknowledge my responses to their case on me, then Hu Tao also complains about this but shuts you down immediately when you try to do the complete opposite.

I'm trying to figure out of this is real frustrated town or not.

[Thomith]

Thom can you link a scum game of yours

I can but it'll be super old since I don't have a completed one since I came back to the site

[Thomith]

If you still think it will be useful I will

[Thomith]

VOTE: Black

Why the swap?

[Thomith]

If I were a vigilante. I'd shoot in Elements/thom/grovyle/goofball

Hypothetically speaking of course

What an interesting thought.

Is your team afraid of taking an arrow from the vig?

Yes. We are literally shaking and crying right now.

This interaction feels like a weird bus.

[Thomith]

Like giving a vig pool isn't weird, but the "are you trying to avoid a vig?" "Yes we are shaking and crying" feels so off?