Newbie 1248 (GAME OVER)

[Axxle]

VOTE: LordChronos for hating the RQS.

I haven't played long enough to know if RQS is a valuable scumhunting tool or not, but at least for a newbie game I think it's valuable in that it makes everyone feel like they're coming into the game contributing. It helps new players feel less lost.

I like that Seacore is coming right out the gate telling us what an IC is and he is going to be doing. In my first game I was terribly confused as to what my IC was supposed to do.

1) I am at PDT (UTC - 7). @Hyperion, are you sure you're not in EDT instead of EST?
2) I found the RVS to be very strange in my first game. I didn't start the game (I was replaced in) so I didn't experience it so I had trouble seeing how it helps. If anything it felt like it allowed scum to get an easy early vote in with the pretext of it being random. Getting votes on someone bears a lot more weight when it isn't random.
3) I think creating a metagame environment where players Lynch Liars and Lurkers is a good way to discourage that behavior by players. It shouldn't be a hard and fast rule that we can't see past, but as a rule of thumb it's a good idea.

[Axxle]

I think the basics of scumhunting are: Get everyone to talk. Keep them talking. Hopefully you get the scum to slip up, maybe even catching them in a lie. Of course you have to take into consideration bad town players and things like that. In my previous game there was a lot of talk about "Gut tells" that people had, basically initial feelings about players even without much evidence to back it up. Those help too since many times scum tend to behave differently when giving them than town. All in all getting people to talk seems to be key.

[Axxle]

And in that light, where are you crabbyman66? Where are you Mortontfrh? Game's started!

[Axxle]

Thank you! I will read both articles when I can (which might be now)

[Axxle]

@Arinna: with all due respect the policy worked incredibly well my first game here (he literally posted four times), resulting in a perfect town win. To be fair it wasn't just because he was lurking, the few times he did talk he seemed to test the waters and then rehash everyone's opinions as his own. And we were in a rush to lynch someone that we all agreed on. Hmm... well, I guess I don't have a lot of evidence to back that argument. I'll revise to: Lurking is a scumtell for me, be active and give us more information. Even if you are new, you can still try to contribute. Don't be afraid to make mistakes since we can learn from them.

I wish I had that article when I started a Mafia game in another forum entirely. It seems that RVS is just as damaging to us as I thought. I'll exercise my right to not be part of it UNVOTE:

See you all tomorrow, probably.

[Axxle]

That is patently false LC. You may think that an RVS isn't helpful, and I'd agree with you, but to say it doesn't exist as a concept is wrong. As an SE please try and be clear about when you're giving your opinion.

Also, it's a weekend , so let's not get worked up about some players not posting.

I think he's saying there's not an official RVStage with an ending time then suddenly mafia becomes serious.

Vote Seacore

for either skimming or being deliberately obtuse.

I don't like that LC said "There is

no such thing

as the RVS." That

is

a lie, one that can be confusing to new players. If he said something like "The Random Voting Stage is..." and then proceeded to the rest of that post that would be better. It was probably just a mistake made out of hatred for the RVS but don't attack someone for thinking it's misleading when it

is

misleading. I don't think LordChronos meant anything bad by it, but VOTE: wombat for attacking someone for being "obtuse" while himself not trying to understand.

Also just fyi:

for voting you can use the

[vot

e][/vote] tags instead of bold.

(Do you mind if I use blue for things like this, Seacore?)

[Axxle]

^ OK you kinda lost me with that last post Axxle, could you possibly rephrase the sentence about misleading please?

BAHAHAHAHAHA! That was a joke right?

[Axxle]

If not: I assume you mean this sentence? "It was probably just a mistake made out of hatred for the RVS but don't attack someone for thinking it's misleading when it is misleading" What I mean is: Seacore thought LordChronos was being misleading and attacked him for it. Wombat felt like Seacore wasn't understanding something very simple in LordChronos's post and attacked him for it. I also think LordChronos wasn't being completely clear, and could very well see how someone could feel mislead by it. I think wombat should have been able to see that too, even if he wasn't confused himself.

[Axxle]

Ah, replace all references to wombat from he to she in my post. Failed to check info for that, sorry wombat.

Arinna strikes me as one of those people with strong convictions fast and early, grabbing at every bit of evidence she can. And that's good. Especially at these early stages. I think she'll sound as convinced at every stage of the game, whether or not she is able to change those ideas of who's town or not remains to be seen.

[Axxle]

What the heck man. It

is

called the random voting stage: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=RVS. No matter where you put the emphasis, it's still wrong.

Is it too strong of a defense of her? Maybe. I was just giving a gut read based on how she reminds me of other people I've played with on and off this forum.

[Axxle]

Also, I've never seen mafia give a town read on a partner right off the bat like that.

[Axxle]

And that's why I said it's confusing.

[Axxle]

@Arinna: I've explained some of my views regarding their situation but this is a more objective view: Lord Chronos said something ambiguous, but did not think it was ambiguous. Seacore called him out on it. Wombat also didn't think LC was being ambiguous and called Seacore out on seeing something where there is nothing. Maybe this is all genuine. But I don't think so. I think Seacore's reaction is perfectly fine before LC explained himself. I think LC believed he was being clear. I think wombat is, ah, hmm... Well... at the time I thought it was obvious that LC was being ambiguous but since LC's explanation I can see how wombat would have thought it was understandable at first glance.

UNVOTE: wombat

@LC: I don't see how defending a previous opinion can preclude you from having a new opinion. (This is with regards to Arinna changing her opinion of you)

Speaking of lurkers, crabbyman and Mortontfrh haven't spoken up yet even though they logged in yesterday evening when things were beginning to get interesting.

Actually... wow. Looking back makes Seacore look scummy where I didn't see it before. Did anyone else notice he put the second vote on LC soon after Morton's RVS vote on LC?

Seacore: What is your opinion of Arinna?

[Axxle]

LC. I really don't want to make a big deal out of this but it seems like you want to. You were ambiguous. The definition of ambiguity is lack of clarity. That both myself and Seacore misinterpreted what you said means it wasn't clear. That's all I'm trying to say. I am not saying that you did so maliciously, and yet you keep lumping me in with Seacore saying that I am.

[Axxle]

I'm so bad at Day 1...

Even after reading over everything multiple times, nothing really strikes me as odd.

That... strikes me as odd. Everyone else already seems to have some opinion on what's happened. Go with what Hyperion suggests.

[Axxle]

Actually... wow. Looking back makes Seacore look scummy where I didn't see it before. Did anyone else notice he put the second vote on LC soon after Morton's RVS vote on LC?

Seacore: What is your opinion of Arinna?

VOTE: Seacore
You were here in the afternoon and I get no response. What gives?

[Axxle]

I'm at work, I don't get much of a chance to type, but I try to stay in touch with the game so I read. I also often read by phone but like to avoid typing on it.

I also had the duty of closing off the game I was running, so that took the small amount of time I had. I'll get to you.

I have mixed feelings on Arinna. There is something that she's doing that is pinning my scumdar, but I want to ISO to make sure that I'm not misreading an over-eager newbie which is to be expected. So I'll get to you later.

... still waiting...

[Axxle]

Going to be on V/LA until the 6th at the earliest to deal with some real life crap, sorry guys.

No worries, thanks for letting us know.

[Axxle]

I'm at work, I don't get much of a chance to type, but I try to stay in touch with the game so I read. I also often read by phone but like to avoid typing on it.

I also had the duty of closing off the game I was running, so that took the small amount of time I had. I'll get to you.

I have mixed feelings on Arinna. There is something that she's doing that is pinning my scumdar, but I want to ISO to make sure that I'm not misreading an over-eager newbie which is to be expected. So I'll get to you later.

... still waiting...

Dude, cut it out, seriously. And I don't just mean for me or this game. People have real lives. They also live in different timezones. I'm in Australia and I work during the day and then look after my daughter until my wife gets home. Then I get some PC time and I can play.
If days passed, and if I had posted here without answering or if I had posted in other games without posting here, then you can get uppity, but until then, just be patient.

Ok, sure. But SAY THAT. Say you might be a while. Your previous post strongly implied that you were just about to read the ISO and would respond in a reasonable amount of time.

Also, we're only a few pages in. Do you really need to look at ISOs? I would think it'd be a lot easier and more helpful to just reread the thread.

[Axxle]

OK, so Axxle is starting to be ridiculous attacking Seacore. Is he just doing that because Seacore said Wombat was town because newbscum wouldn't attack the IC, and Axxle wants him to say Axxle looks town for the same reason?

That would be silly for him think I'm town for attacking him after he made a post like that. I'm pressuring him for a few reasons. Many (not all) of his previous posts had been terse. Because some had been lengthy I knew that I should be able to get more out of him. I also did get a scummy vibe (after the fact) from him reading way too much into LC's post about RVS, which also created the first second vote on someone.

Sorry I'm too pushy Seacore, I'm used to another forum where I get incredibly prompt responses from people in just one mafia game.

@Arinna: The only reason I think LC is scummy is that he's misrepresenting my stance on his post regarding RVS.

I got what I wanted out of Seacore, well a little more than what I wanted because of all the flak, but I'm going to move on.

VOTE: crabbyman66

you're not going to be able to be that meek and lurky crabbyman. Speak now, or... eh, just respond to something. What about Arinna's queston: "Axxle, Hyperion, Mortontfrh, Balnazzar, what do you think about this theoretical discussion that has been going on? (To clarify, I am not asking you about the RVS, but what has been going on between Chronos, Wombat and Seacore, and its implications, if any.)"

... wait... Why did you leave out crabbyman, Arinna?

[Axxle]

That would be silly for him think I'm town for attacking him after he made a post like that. I'm pressuring him for a few reasons. Many (not all) of his previous posts had been terse. Because some had been lengthy I knew that I should be able to get more out of him. I also did get a scummy vibe (after the fact) from him reading way too much into LC's post about RVS, which also created the first second vote on someone.

I'm not questioning your attack on his vote, it did look kind of scummy. But you started being ridicuously pushy and slightly obnoxious trying to get him to answer. You definately seemed like you were trying to pick a fight with him, and this happened maybe 4 hours after Seacore declared Wombat town for picking a fight with the IC. It seems very staged and oppurtunistic.

What I meant was I have no illusions that I'll look town by attacking him. If he said "Axxle is town. No newbie scum picks a fight with the IC" I would have been very surprised and confused. I also obviously didn't mean to come across as scum for doing so either.

Pre-edit: Well. Do I really come across as attacking easy targets? I feel like I've attacked or questioned most at some point this game. I never really expected anyone to go along with me, I'm just trying to get responses out of people and give responses as appropriate. If you take that to be over defensive that how do you even expect to get a response out of anyone? And since when is pressure bad? I mean really.

To be specific:

Next up is...
Axxle:
Post 13 Intro post, a vote for LC because LC doesnt like RQS, but then he goes on to say he doesnt know if RQS is helpful in scum hunting, it just helps newbs feel like they are contributing. The problem with that is that it isnt really contributing, its all a discussion of game mechanics, which is a really easy place for scum to hide and look busy.

Well, I didn't know game mechanic discussions was a thing that benefited mafia before LC's link.

Post 20 is game mechanics, and very obvious game mechanics, "getting everyone to talk is the way to find scum" good job, you get a gold star for common sense skills.

what? there are noobs/idiots that don't know even this. I'm not a good enough mafia player to know the intricacies yet.

Post 21 Is him pressuring inactive players,

on page 1

, he goes after easy targets.

Ok, so? What's wrong with pressuring people? There wasn't a lot happening page 1...

Post 28 is him defending his lynch policy (granted I agree with his policy, but so far he hasn't done really anyhting of substance pertaining to the current game). Unvotes deciding to not be part of RVS

Arinna voted for me because of my lynching policy. I felt the need to defend myself. I also hadn't finished that article yet. Point?

Post 38 wishy washy on LC's RVS comment (I dont like this, but it was probably just this...) The vote on Wombat seems OK to me though. He rephrases part of this post in post 41 per my request.

I thought it was pretty direct. Although seeing this does make me realize where LC was coming from when he posted later.

44 is a defense of Arinna (I know someone already commented on it, but it did seem rather strong this early, especially when he has no prior game experience with Arinna.)

Yeah, yeah. You don't want my townreads? Fine. It turned out to be very spot on though.

46 and 47 is an overdefensive (IMO, or course) reaction to LC's vote on him.

LC thought he was being incredibly clear. Two people said he wasn't. It's therefore obvious he wasn't clear. I also don't think I defended myself so much as addressed that issue.

61 The first part can be rather wishy washy in places like this: "I thought it was obvious that LC was being ambiguous but since LC's explanation I can see how wombat would have thought it was understandable at first glance."

I was wrong about LC and wombat's intentions? Ok? I can be wrong.

Pressures lurkers again

Why isn't anyone else pressuring lurkers? Is there something I just don't get?

, and says Seacore looks scumy, then comes his "dude why aren't you answering me stuff "

I gave my reasons for it, that maybe he saw what LC and wombat saw and posted that anyway to throw people like me off.

He aslo tries to almost pick a fight with LC in Post 64 Also, this comes after Seacore says attacking a experienced player isn't newbscummy.

Again I apologize for that. I'm used to getting very prompt responses where being ignored usually means that players are scared to answer.

Pressure crabby again, goes for easy target

He isn't doing anything. Is it so wrong to kick him into action?

And then comes his "why aren't you answering my tirade, which I have already expressed my opinions on.

Sorry. I want to keep the game moving.

Then pressure + votes for Crabby, again an easy target.

"He isn't doing anything. Is it so wrong to kick him into action?"

[Axxle]

Starting in the order on the vote tally chart thing. First up is...
Crabby:
Obv not a lot to go on,
Post 26 and Post 27 are his check in post and him aknowledging the article that LC posted. Nothing there.
His only other post is Post 65 where he said he had nothing to comment on, I told him that if nothing stood out to him then he should answer some of the questions that have been asked by a couple of players. He didn't, and hasn't posted since, and I checked, and he hasn't posted anywhere else either, and hasnt signed on since then (you can check that here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/memberlist.p ... le&u=19019 ) So he isnt lurking, he just isnt playing.
Overall: Basically nothing to go on, but its a long way till deadline, so I expect him to post ALOT to make up for this in the future.

How is this pressure different than the pressure I was giving him? Also: I didn't notice he hadn't signed in recently.

[Axxle]

Arinna
Asks questions to get game rolling
Some stuff about the use of RQS, it is easy for scum to hide in that type of stuff.
Seems very long winded like in Post 19 Overexplanation and overdefensiveness can sometimes be scummy, but only if you bring meta into the argument, and I don't know Arinna's meta.
I still don't like Post 25 for the same reasons I stated before (If you want to know them, see Post 35)
Don't like the first part of Post 50 She admits to voting for someone just because she disagrees with them. Won't defend my scumbuddy accusation b/c of WIFOM. I don't necessarily think that can be used as an excuse. And her town read on LC slides back to null after she is subject to opposition (not necessarily a bad thing as long as her explanation makes sense).
Post 52 seems good, except that she did miss LC's thoughts on my case on her. Other than that, she does give a reason defending her read change on LC (I have yet to check if her reason is right but... ).
Post 62 is a defense of her actions. she says she voted for Axle because she disagreed with him (still not a good reason). Some stuff about the use of votes (game mechanics, an easy way for scum to look busy). And again, her defense on her read shift on LC.
Says her read change on LC was not as good, because her reasoning was off (she thought he posted a lot of theory, but realises he didn't) it seems kind of meh.
Post 80 seems wishy washy "I hadn't considered it... its possible... I'm not completely sure etc." <---paraphrase

Yeah, my strong townread isn't as strong anymore.

Also, it feels like this is a ton of IIoA.

[Axxle]

"Information instead of analysis" It's supposed to be a scumtell, but I'm not very convinced of that.

[Axxle]

Axxle,

1. Please don't fall into the trap of using buzz words and acronyms. They're not as helpful as they are dangerous. I'm not just talking about the words themselves, mind you, I'm talking about the concepts. Using them as scum tells without understanding them properly is not good.

2. What Hyperion is doing isn't IIOA. He's stating what he's seen of a player, stated his interpretation of that and then given a final read based on the above info. That is the definition of analysis.

Sure, my bad.

Also: I'll give my reads in a few hours or so.

[Axxle]

I thought I'd have more time but I'll just got through them quickly:

crabbyman66

- Null, sounded like he was genuinely interested to know how to play town. I like this quote though: "I'm in favor of voting for lurkers to spur a bit more activity"

wombat99

- Don't like the vote on Seacore just because he didn't read as much into LC's post. Not really sure what post #60 is all about, maybe something got lost? Slight mafia.

Arinna

- Asks some good questions, something about her tactics are very understandable to me. Moderate town.

Balnazzar

- N/A

Hyperion

- Lots to look through, I'll be quick: I get a town read off him. He feels like the most down to earth and critical. Most content by far.

LordChronos

- The only thing he's really been involved in is that misunderstanding fiasco. This is my strongest scum read (although still weak) for refusing to accept being wrong and painting me and Seacore as the bad guys.

Mortontfrh

(0) - Null.

Seacore

- I get a decent town read from Seacore. LC was being vague, whatever I ended up saying to take that back later. He also seems to be looking at all the evidence every time he posts something of substance.

[Axxle]

What I've seen people do in the past is say something like "Intent to hammer" and wait a day or so for people to raise objections or not, and then hammer.

[Axxle]

I think I am just going to vote lord chaos for not posting in the thread for awhile (and some other things). His reason for not posting was that he was doing his finals, but it sounds fishy becuase I would think that his school would be out by now

/vote lord chaos

Many schools on the quarter system are still in session.

[Axxle]

*quarter system near me

[Axxle]

Have you read through the entire thread? What are your thoughts on player's actions as opposed to inactions?

[Axxle]

TownAxxle: Hi everybody! I'm the doctor! Don't lynch me
Seacore's supposed scum buddy: No! I'm the doctor! Lynch him
-Axxle is lynched-
-Axxle flips town doctor-
-Seacore's supposed scum buddy dies Day 2-

Alternatively:
MafiaAxxle: Hi everybody! I'm the doctor! Don't lynch me
TownieA: No! I'm the doctor! Lynch him
-Axxle is lynched-
-Axxle flips mafia-
-TownieA is NK'd-

Don't counterclaim if you don't have to. I'd say some roles like doctor are almost better not claiming at all.

[Axxle]

Ah, that was the point I was trying to make.

[Axxle]

I'm not discouraging Hyperion from pressuring crabbyman, Hyperion called my pressure on crabbyman scummy and then proceeded to pressure crabbyman. I found that inconsistent.

I agree with many of your other reads, except I don't have that gut read on Arinna so I consider her more town than you do, and wombat has turned into just a newbie null to me. That hammer question could have also been asked by scum so they know how to vote without looking suspicious.

Overall though I don't really like your reasons for things sometimes (esp. in regards to me and Seacore) but disagreement doesn't necessarily mean your scummy.

PEdit: It is strange that Seacore insists on being the one to clear them. He should have at least included the SE's on that. It feels like he's trying to use his authority to direct the entire town (although thanks for keeping your blue and black text somewhat separate).

[Axxle]

I'll try to login in the morning, but I have a full conference day so I may not be able to check back until Friday.

[Axxle]

UNVOTE: crabbyman

[Axxle]

Ok, thinking crabby is scum for being noob and disappearing doesnt make sense

A dichotomy of me and Hyperion being town and mafia doesnt make sense either, hyperion is indisputably reading heavily town.

Considering vla as scum is bad.

Thank you.

I don't see Arinna defending me nearly as much as you say, although I agree that she's tending town


I'm wary of you. Your opinions are odd and your perception of facts incorrect. I really don't know whether to attribute that to newbie or scummy. For now

FOS: kalbim

[Axxle]

There were a lot of other problems with Kalbim's post, SoraAdvent. You're coming off as too defensive (therefore slightly scummy). I agree with your conclusion though. I also second Hyperion's motion.

No worries Hyperion, I'm getting used to the speed of the game and a day doesn't feel that long anymore.

Just to get a little meta: I asked in my first game but just wanted to verify: Replacements are a more Null tell, correct? I had assumed that Vanilla Town is more likely to replace out (as the more boring role) but I was told that's not the case.

PEdit: I see wombat has posted, I'll respond in a sec.

[Axxle]

Don't really know what to say, I feel like I've said my thoughts about some of this previously.

Re: Kablim. His second post seems rushed, I attribute that to panic for being called out on his off the wall first post. And I think scum is more likely to panic in that situation than town.

[Axxle]

In a rush but I'll address Arinna's question:

I think that it's possible he didn't want to back down since he knows he at least has wombat's support and maybe others too and wanted to create disinformation and make me and/or Seacore primary targets. I would not be surprised by a LC/wombat scumteam. That said, Kalbim has a much stronger scumread at the moment.

[Axxle]

Hopefully the straws I'm grasping at have scum written on it. (I'm actually not familiar with the term)

[Axxle]

Well, I should claim I guess. I am

Vanilla Town

. I'm sorry for looking scummy, just trying to play.

[Axxle]

I really wanted to get more information out of today, but if everyone's willing to end Day 1 so early:

Vote: kalbim

[Axxle]

I'd prefer we lynch scum, but at least you can use my death for analysis of what people said today.

[Axxle]

@mod: I voted for kalbim in post #184

OK, so I know that people have said we should wait before we lynch so they can get more info, but no one is posting. I'm giving it a few hours, and then I'm switching to Axxle, because waiting around not doing anything isn't going to help.

Not that I want to look a gift horse in the mouth, but what made you change your mind about dropping this hammer? If it wasn't just a mistake it solidifies my belief that you are town since mafia wouldn't really have a reason to do so.

[Axxle]

Well great job you guys. I dropped the ball in the beginning, but tried to salvage it. My earlier partner didn't help, and the weakest town members being replaced by obvtown really killed any chance of anything.