NY 160B - Welcome to Castle Zar - TIME FOR FIREWORKS!

[DeasVail]

How I could not be recognised is beyond me.

Anyway, hi! Reading soon.

[DeasVail]

Vi:

Why did you think Arc was scum at 93?

I'm agreeing with Mehdi-scum. I think that contradictions can easily come from town, but I also believe that he considers contradiction a strong scumtell. The fact that he continues to deny that he contradicted himself (when I'd expect town to say something along the lines of "yeah, I contradicted myself, but I'm town, so whatever") is scummy.

Baby Spice:

Why didn't you provide your thoughts on Mehdi in 109?

I agree with Empire's townread on Arc, but his analysis in 112 looks more like a "look how town I am" thing than what a townie would actually think. Part of this I think is because it seems like he's trying too hard to find towntells in her posts. For example, I think his reasons for finding posts 7 and 8 town are not that significant. I was scum in the first 3-4 games of mafia I played and loved it. I could see scum knowing that Arc is town and deciding to have a townread on her (and seeing everything she does as a towntell) to say what Empire said though.

Empire:

Why do you think newcomers in particular would be less enthusiastic as scum?

So, I've read through (although skimmed towards the end). Right now I'm thinking my main scumreads will be Mehdi and Empire, although I still want to look over some things and clarify my reads.

[DeasVail]

Regarding Empire, it wasn't him overexplaining, but more finding a towntell in pretty much everything Arc said. I'm not as sure of my scumread now though.

Empire, around how many games have you played as scum (solo) and in which do you think you played best?

Mehdi, do you think we should policy lynch you? (referring to the lack of difference you claim between your town and scum games)

[DeasVail]

Why aren't you trying to convince people that Mehdi is town? (I'm assuming you think he is)

[DeasVail]

Ok fine, you win, you're town.

Can you explain this?

[DeasVail]

Oh and deas I think it's a dumb reason and would mean I get policy lynched every game when a person is readable without it.

But you said your town and scum games would look the same to anyone but you, so how are you readable?

[DeasVail]

No, but if you play the same as scum, then the reasons for me thinking you were town were invalid.

I think that how I consider scumtells and meta may be different from how you do, or at least how you seem to this game though.

[DeasVail]

I personally get confused whenever I try to meta anybody. I've seen it work for others though,

[DeasVail]

Why didn't you just link to Karma mafia instead of doing it this roundabout way?

[DeasVail]

I don't see why Mehdi would have refuted the question point the way he did unless as scum hoping for "he wouldn't use a game where he was scum to defend himself, surely!"

[DeasVail]

lets all thank mehdi for the roadmap to his scumbuddies, which i will wager are all located within the { }s i added to the above

I think you're making too many assumptions.

[DeasVail]

Has Mehdi claimed yet?

[DeasVail]

Ok, well I'd like a claim if people don't think it's a terrible idea.

[DeasVail]

I don't intend to hammer, but I still think a claim is a good idea.

[DeasVail]

When Mehdi flips scum, Vi needs scrutiny too.

Do you see this coming from a buddy?

I don't, although if Mehdi's town then it's scummy.

[DeasVail]

Scum with Mehdi would think 424 could be interpreted as knowing Mehdi is scum (and therefore being a scumbuddy) and would avoid it.

I could see scum with Mehdi-town pretending to think he's scum doing it though.

[DeasVail]

And yes, I'm ignoring Dayne after that awful false dilemma crap earlier.

What is your read on him?

[DeasVail]

DV, have you ever read or played with Vi scum?

I don't think so.

[DeasVail]

How hard does he bus usually? Because here he's kind of just... there on the Mehdi wagon.

[DeasVail]

Ugh.

[DeasVail]

MoI, why does it matter so much that you were quoted?

[DeasVail]

I'm thinking of hammering.

[DeasVail]

Why the rush?

[DeasVail]

I'm fine with the day ending myself, but there may be people who don't want it to end. I don't know, but I don't think it's a big deal really.

[DeasVail]

Is it really that bad?

PEdit: Oh.

[DeasVail]

Rofl, how has Mehdi being town affected your read of me?

Also, to you and SAD, why MoI-scum? I remember thinking he was town when I was reading.

[DeasVail]

Why are you reading him as town? My problem with moi is, as I said, how he didn't say anything meaningful concerning the mehdi wagon. He asked rofl to tell him why he was scum without fluffy language and talked to Arthur about Arthur thinking he was obvscum, but he didn't offer up his own opinions on what was a major portion of the conversation yesterday. He left his vote on empire the entire day, and though he attacked empire somewhat he looked more to be arguing for the sake of keeping busy but not pushing anything.

I'm going to try and update my reads properly tonight, but it was his attack on Empire for exactly what I was thinking and other things matched up with what I expect from him as town rather than scum.

[DeasVail]

MoI, what was your read on Mehdi yesterday?

MoI:

I'm very interested in his response to my question, but I like his read on Empire in 153 and well... posts like 171 are pretty much what I expect from MoI-town, whereas I think he's more likely to buddy and be 'nicer' as scum (this is from limited experience though).

~~

So... scumreads.

Snowstorm- His Mehdi-vote starts off as just a feeling , but he never really seems to be trying to consider his alignment. I think a lot of his questions are designed to incriminate rather than gain information from the answers. An exception to this is 321, but his next post is something that could be said regardless of what Mehdi's answer was (and I don't think his answer there was scummy), making the whole process seem really fake to me.

Another thing is that I get the impression of him being in "Lynch-Mehdi" mode and just being negative towards him in every way, which I think is likely from scum. Examples are 506 and his over-reaction to the claim in 510.

Snowstorm is my main scumread right now, but my others are:

Kingmaker- Mainly because of this:

Easy target? I could have hammered Mehdi there and move the game to a date that is more comfortable for me(after my exam, that is), but I didn't?

Baby Spice- Never really tries to stop a Mehdi lynch despite a strong enough townread to attack those who suspected him.

There are also a few others who are kind of scummy and kind of townish, and I'm still deciding what I think of them really, but I'm happy enough with where I'm at right now.

Vote: Snowstorm

[DeasVail]

Rofl, how has Mehdi being town affected your read of me?

Oh, and add MoI to this too.

[DeasVail]

Hmmm...

@DV:

If you thought SnowStorm's line of inquiry was scummy, why didn't you make any comment on it D1? I mean, you replaced in and presumably would have read the whole thread and noticed that then.

(Yes, this is me building up to a scumread on you!)

I had a townread on him Day 1. I read through ISOs again Day 2 (and Mehdi-town influenced this). Now I have a scumread on him.

It's pretty magical stuff.

But you probably know this and even if I was scum, I wouldn't be all like "Oh! You got me!" so what were you hoping to get from it?

[DeasVail]

I'm not seeing the problem at all...

[DeasVail]

Ok, so Empire, if you continue to suspect me with this reasoning, I will think you are scum.

Also, what do you think of Snowstorm?

[DeasVail]

Rofl, how has Mehdi being town affected your read of me?

Oh, and add MoI to this too.

[DeasVail]

Weeeeeee!

[DeasVail]

Rofl, do you have a good reason for ignoring me?

[DeasVail]

The reason for me-scum feels contrived.

[DeasVail]

Ok, this is ridiculous.

[DeasVail]

I think it's scummy, because it's the kind of reason that you could say regardless of Mehdi's alignment, and I think it's just mentioning something that you consider to be bad, and saying it's scummy without actually thinking about what it means alignment-wise.

I'm still not sure about you, however, because despite scum always suspecting me and this extra thing, your posting does generally seem townish and others have said you are like this as town.

My question was because of you going 'MoI and DV are scum with Mehdi!' and then the next day 'MoI and DV are scum anyway!' just seemed like you planned to have us as scumreads all along. The reason you had for me supported this, but as I said above, I'm still not sure about you. The MoI reason is fine and something I agree with (although I think he's town for other reasons), but I think he still needs to answer my question.

I haven't said any of this yet because it's not really saying anything and I'm still deciding on my read.

[DeasVail]

301 is an example, and although I like to ask incriminating questions sometimes, I get the impression that the purpose of the questions was not to read Mehdi, but to attack him.

Why did you put effort into understanding Mehdi if you knew you wouldn't move your vote?

[DeasVail]

So, I'm still thinking Snowstorm. Add to my earlier stuff his lack of comment on MoI (which I think town would be likely to do considering that he's the main wagon). And I remember thinking there was something else that was scummy that I wanted to wait to say, but I'm tired (get-togethers with ALL the relos are exhausting!) and I may just be imagining things, so when I'm more with it I'll get back to you maybe?

[DeasVail]

DV, I am confused. If you think rofl was lining up lynches (612), then why wouldn’t you immediately call him out on it instead of waiting for him to say as such and then react to it?

I don't know if I mean lining up lynches, it's more keeping convenient scumreads. If you mean the 'these people are scum with Mehdi' then I know he does that as town. And I wanted to see his answer to my question before calling him out, but it's not like it matters that much.

Also, with Snowstorm, I think that if you've got the time to post a lot, and you see that MoI is a big wagon, it would be natural to comment on it as town.

There's something I find interesting though, which I will say once more people have posted properly.

[DeasVail]

I just feel it's the kind of thing you could say regardless of Mehdi's alignment, and the reasoning itself just seems... I don't know. What I did makes sense to me and I don't really understand why people think otherwise.

I think it's scummy, but I think MoI is townish otherwise and I think Snowstorm is scummy otherwise. What I'm interested to know is why people are calling MoI scum primarily for the lack of comment on the Mehdi wagon, and thinking nothing of Snowstorm at all.

[DeasVail]

Well, he had three votes to everyone else having one when Snowstorm came in, and the bold is kind of attention-grabbing.

[DeasVail]

Also, SnowStorm, read on MoI/his slot. Go.

[DeasVail]

I still need to read things properly and I don't know how relevant this is, but I've seen DGB replace out as scum before when I replaced in and began to bus her. This replace out kind of seems genuine to me on first glance though, but I'll have more of a think about it.

[DeasVail]

Nacho!!

What do you think of DGB's replace out?

[DeasVail]

Actually, now that I think about it, here's another thing: I just read through your ISO and a lot of the rapid-fire, seemingly leading questions you ask Mehdi would seem to fall under DV's category of "attempting to elicit an incriminating a response." If that's the standard, why doesn't DV seem to consider applying it to you as well and focuses on Snow?

Eh, I have a townread on Tammy. It's not really the leading questions that are a problem by themselves (as I've realised I ask them too), but I believe his questions were more to look like he was scumhunting than anything else. I don't know if I'm explaining it right, or if I'm even right about it, but basically I feel his play was focused on lynching Mehdi and looking town and not

reading

Mehdi.

Nacho, why Baby Spice over SnowStorm? I'm thinking of voting for her now, but the fact that NO ONE is really considering SnowStorm at all, when there is really nothing townish about him makes me want to vote him more, although the reasoning for that is probably illogical.

[DeasVail]

Unvote: SnowStorm
Vote: Baby Spice

Mostly for what I've said before. The biggest thing is attacking everyone who suspected Mehdi, without really trying to stop his lynch, which I feel is natural for town to do if they had such a strong townread. Otherwise doesn't seem very town either.

[DeasVail]

I'd prefer a Nacho lynch over a Zach lynch, and I don't have a townread on him, but I think we'd be able to better read the slot with more time and I think Baby Spice is more scummy.

[DeasVail]

Wait rofl, am I scum with you too?

[DeasVail]

Empire, what do you think of Baby Spice?

[DeasVail]

A throwaway comment about how he doesn't like the attention on Baby Spice. (Which I am noticing now in light of her flip.)

Why do you think scum would say this about their buddy?

[DeasVail]

Where I'm at right now is that there are a number weak townreads that I need to have another look at before deciding my 'scumreads'. SnowStorm is not as scummy to me as he was, but is still not a strong townread.

[DeasVail]

SAD can be town for now.

SnowStorm is still kind of eh. I thought the fishy thing may have been a towntell, but I'm not as sure now. Zach's reasoning is alright too.

Konowa is kind of scummy actually.

Zach's kind of townish.

NS can be a decentish townread.

Preference for scum would probably be:

Konowa > SnowStorm > Zach > NS

If there's scum outside that, then I've got something wrong as I'm decently confident in the others. Not that I'd be too surprised though.

Vote: SnowStorm

because I'm just too cool.

[DeasVail]

DeasVail... thoughts on Empire?

He's probably the main townread I'm worried about, just because he hasn't really done much that I think scum wouldn't do. I do think he's town though mainly because of him being more pro-town at this stage than I'd expect from him as scum.

[DeasVail]

Empire, what was wrong with my justification for voting Baby Spice?

[DeasVail]

If we could not talk about the Vig/SK until we get a claim (if we do get one), that would be amazing.

[DeasVail]

Well I already gave a reason, but if you really want another, there's not much difference between you and Konowa for me and you already have a vote so...

But yeah, I'm really still deciding between you and Konowa for who I want to push today to be honest.

[DeasVail]

Well first off, I thought the timing was weird because you hadn't really expressed any suspicion of Baby before Nacho put down his vote. Secondly, while the point that Baby was white-knighting Mehdi for cred seemed valid, I thought it was a misrepresentation to say that she wasn't doing much to fight the lynch - I thought Baby was actively trying to fight it by presenting Johhog as a counter-wagon option. It was a dumb as hell wagon since I thought Johhog was very townie but it was there (and honestly, that situation added to the notion that Baby was possibly just an incompetent townie).

I think I said she was one of my scumreads at some point, but it shouldn't really matter. Also, that's not really what it felt like to me, because before I said anything (fairly late Day 1 after replacing in) I don't think she explained at all why she thought Mehdi was town, (which is what you'd do I think as town) and it just didn't seem like she was trying to get the town to lynch Johhog (even though she was attacking him), but maybe that wasn't valid, I don't know.

PEdit: It was getting close to deadline and obviously Snow wasn't getting lynched and she seemed like the best option then, as I wanted to hear more from Nacho.

[DeasVail]

Oh and I became less sure of my scumread on Snow too.

[DeasVail]

VOTE: Konowa

He's been invisible in this game. Yesterday he preferred lynching Zach or Nacho while he distanced himself from Baby Spice slightly. At the same time he avoided putting pressure on her. He also have a bunch of nice and sure town reads ready to show, predictably without any reasoning. What he's been saying all game is "You're town. You're town too. You're scum". And that's why you'll most likely fail to remember a single post made by this guy.

I agree with most of the first part, but the reads thing is not necessarily scummy.

[DeasVail]

Unvote: SnowStorm

Vote: Konowa

Why I think he's scum:

-222 and 223 are probably the main ones. In 222, he says that even though Arc is prob town, a vig shot would be good. I think this might have been where I got my earlier weak townread from, although I've forgotten so maybe not. But anyway, now I'm thinking that vigging someone who you have a townread on isn't very natural, whereas scum could probably think to say it with Arc not being very useful, but I think that if you're town with a townread, you probably don't want them dead?
And I still think the 'when' in 223 is off.

Apart from that, I'd say the biggest thing is the lack of Baby spice interaction and not really commenting on her after Nacho's vote.

[DeasVail]

Oh sorry, and Konowa is right.

422 and 423.

[DeasVail]

Regarding 422, that's exactly what I mean. If someone is prob town, wanting a policy shot doesn't make sense at all over someone you can't read or think is scum.

And when I'm scum, I have 'town' explanations for everything I say and do, so you explaining something is not going to make it less scummy.

I went through your ISO as I made the post and said things in the order that I saw/thought them.

And I had a weak townread on you yesterday, but I forget why.

[DeasVail]

Hmm, you're probably right about Empire saying it. I remembered that someone had and I found it scummy, if that's the case then I may have to rethink that, but it's not about scum having a super good reason to say it, but more that scum aren't so concerned with reading everyosone so don't value townreads as much as I feel town would, so would be more likely to say it because of Arc.

I'm not saying that policy shots are necessarily bad, but usually I'd expect it when someone can't be read because of lurking etc. or is caught out in some way.

PEdit: Ok

[DeasVail]

Unvote: Konowa

Vote: SnowStorm

I think I still have Konowa as a scumread, but I'm leaning more towards SnowStorm now that I'm not so sure of the policy vig thing, and also considering that he thought Empire suggested one and that he already explained his scummy post, both of which didn't happen as far as I know. I think this is at least a slight towntell because I think scum would be more likely to check their facts, particularly when under pressure, but a lot of the time I make something out of nothing, so I'll have to think about it.

[DeasVail]

Oh, and I forgot to say thanks Tammy.

Unrelated, I'm considering starting The Wire too hehe.

[DeasVail]

Um, I'll probably say my thoughts on the setup later.

Regarding Zach, I'm really not sure whether or not to support lynching him today. I kind of feel like Snow and Konowa are my two main scumreads with a big gap between them and Zach and then probably another gap between him and NS. (Note that a couple of my reads are more strongly not-mafia than not-scum so in the case of an SK they could be quite different)

And based on my experience with him, MoI is nicer as scum than he is as town, and a few of his Day 1 posts indicated not-nice MoI to me. Zach has also given me a weak town feel, but really there's not that much that's town about the slot compared to others, so I could see him as scum, but Konowa and Snow just seem more likely to me right now?

Although Tammy, is there anyone else here that is aware of Snow's tendency to kill you as scum?

[DeasVail]

Argh ok. I'll think on it.

[DeasVail]

Hmm yeah, it's only really one or two posts looking back, so maybe I'm wrong.

I just remember going from 'oh he seems kind of cool' in my first game where he was scum (I think he was one of the few not wanting to lynch me actually) to really not getting on with him in TM (but this was partly my problem too admittedly).

I still find the slot townish overall though, so would rather konowa/Snow, but maybe I'm ok with his lynch. Ugh, I don't know.

[DeasVail]

Eh partly should probably be at least partly, it could've been all my problem for all I know.

[DeasVail]

Aside from that first listing, he never mentions Arthur or DV again, which tells me he never read their ISO's, because even if he didn't suspect them as much as the other two, as town, he would have still read them to reassure himself. That's what town does.

I would like Zach's response to this in particular.

Although I don't necessarily agree with the post.

[DeasVail]

What are you reads on Arthur and myself?

[DeasVail]

Oh never mind, I misunderstood your post.

[DeasVail]

I think I'll read over things and make a decision tonight.

[DeasVail]

Tammy, these posts in succession are a big part of my SAD townread.

Vote: MoI

This is happening.

Btw this is from last night:

Town (S->W): Johhog, Tammy, Empire, SnowStorm, roflcopter,

Vi

,

ArcAngel9

, DeasVail

Scum (S->W): Baby Spice, Nobody Special, MagnaofIllusion, Konowa, Kingmaker

I feel like have Baby Spice where she is while voting MoI is very unlikely to come from scum. I was mainly thinking this with MoI-town, but if MoI is scum then that means he had 2 scum as his strongest scumreads, so that works too really.

[DeasVail]

I think even with MoI-town though, the post just attracts attention to the fact that he's not voting Baby Spice, which I think scum would avoid.

My first thought regardng Baby Spice is just to ignore it, especially since Mehdi was alive then I think, so it could've just been that in the not extremely likely case that it was a slip.

In other news, I'll say my preference for today's lynch is Snow.

[DeasVail]

But here's my problem, why have a gunsmith instead of a cop if there's not a serial killer?

I'd really much rather talk about this later if possible.

[DeasVail]

I remember him being an advocate of the whole "kill people who suspect me" view of NK's as scum

Uh what?

I actually really hate killing people who suspect me.

Also, I don't really know whether Nacho would be able to catch me as scum as he hasn't really been able to do so in the past, but we'll see some time I guess.

[DeasVail]

Well that was an accusation against me in La-La Land so you're probably not, but every kill had a strong reason behind it that was not them suspecting me, and I'm pretty sure I state in the QT that I don't like it.

In the past (although not recently) I've often been close to lynch as scum and been able to turn it around and at the very least delay my lynch. I just much rather killing people who think I'm town for possible townpoints than someone who thinks I'm scum unless I feel that I have to.

[DeasVail]

Has Zach claimed yet?

[DeasVail]

Not particularly surprised. I'm pretty sure this was my first game with him, and I didn't really think he was a great player to be honest. I don't feel I can really make a proper judgement based on one game though, and his read on MoI could have been correct.

[DeasVail]

I can hammer Zach, but would rather at least see if he can get here and claim. (and I'm around until deadline)

[DeasVail]

(Literally missing the Golden Globes for this game.)

Don't if you'd rather not. I'm sure with Tammy and I here, we'll make sure a lynch goes through.

[DeasVail]

My townreads on both of you, Johhog and SAD are more confident than they usually are for me in games, and this is generally agreed upon, so I don't think things are as bad as you guys feel they are, especially if the scum end up being in Konowa/Snow/Zach or something.

[DeasVail]

And yeah, sure.

[DeasVail]

Hmm, I'll reread too I guess.

[DeasVail]

Also, the kill is really strange imo, and I think it points slightly away from Konowa, and I'm less sure of Empire/Tammy, but I'll have to reread them and see.

Oh, and I'm town.

[DeasVail]

Vi has a reputation. With rofl, there was always the possibility that scum somehow knew he was a PR/gunsmith, but Johhog I don't really understand. I completely expected you or Tammy to be killed tbh, and you're

probably

still town, but I'm not sure.

And yeah, I wish I could convince you otherwise somehow?

[DeasVail]

And what sucks is that I can't just go completely insane and insist it's a towntell anymore because I did that in La-La Land.

[DeasVail]

Hmmmm...I have an idea but I'm not really sure if I should mention it.

Does it involve me not being lynched?

[DeasVail]

Oh.. er... ok. I guess I'll get back to you.

Tammy, why SAD?

[DeasVail]

Yeah, I think that's a good idea actually.

PEdit: I'm going to read through things later Konowa, but I can appeal to you too if you like.

[DeasVail]

Yeah, that's the thing though. You, Empire, SAD and Johhog were all widely considered town, so if you were all town, I'd expect it to be a case of who's the most threatening moreso than who's the least likely to be lynched (as you all would be from scum's case) and SAD and Johhog just haven't seemed to have as much influence as you and Empire have.

[DeasVail]

Hmm maybe, and it's possible that talking about it is useless anyway (although I'm pretty sure it's not), but since a massclaim's probably going to happen, we'll know soon.

[DeasVail]

How should we do the massclaim?

[DeasVail]

Either is fine with me.

[DeasVail]

VT

Konowa

[DeasVail]

I'm pretty sure Snow is not a SK.

[DeasVail]

Hmm, if I purposely did something that I would never do as scum (with the intention of looking town from it in mind), would that be really bad, or not?

[DeasVail]

Like what?

.

[DeasVail]

Ok, I don't think it's worth it.

Empire, I think you're probably right, but I'm still worried about one of my townreads being wrong and would really rather people could see me as town and not waste a lynch just in case.

Assume I am town for a moment. What do you suggest I do?

[DeasVail]

Well, when I'm being suspected for things like questioning my townreads on you/Tammy and interactions with scum then that's not a deficiency in my play and not something I can really help. (I don't know what else you've found scummy about me, but I don't think my play's been that bad this game anyway).

The only real way I can see of getting out of a lynch (apart from people just miraculously changing targets like in Mafiastuck) are by behaving as I would as scum (which has always worked with some degree of success in the past) and I guess what I was thinking of doing before comes close to this, but is quite different from how I've tried to get out of lynches as scum in the past so I don't know.

Basically, I think it's quite likely town will win whether I'm lynched or not, but I feel like I should at least somehow try to not be lynched and not just lazily accept it, unless people can just keep ISOing me until they have a townread on me or something.

[DeasVail]

I'm sorry.

Also I'd lean Konowa over NS because NS's jump from Baby Spice to Nacho (considering when he voted for Baby) was really strange for scum imo.

[DeasVail]

I think I'm only at L-2, but don't take my word for it.

[DeasVail]

Yeah, yeah, I get it.

[DeasVail]

NS is still more town than Konowa (and his recent post is not very good, but isn't really that scummy either).

Also don't like the "Konowa is playing like he did as town, not playing like he did as scum" towncase for him considering how town everyone else is (even NS).

[DeasVail]

Er.. NS?

PEdit: Well yes I agree, but if he's scum at this stage then he's completely screwed, so wouldn't he at least try to look town?

Although now I think he might just be trolling.

[DeasVail]

Vote: NS

Everyone get off my wagon and sheep me instead!

[DeasVail]

Eh, well if the decision's between me and NS then I wouldn't really mind if we quicklynched.

[DeasVail]

I really don't though.

Also, I'm surprisingly a little sad.

[DeasVail]

I think the Tammy vote and other recent stuff is quite possibly from scum. I think you could be scum too (and maybe even more likely than NS), but it seems no one else wants to vote for you right now.

[DeasVail]

I'm answering after NS.

[DeasVail]

If NS is town, then it makes no difference if I'm definitely getting lynched tomorrow, but nothing is really certain about tomorrow, so it's really just a choice between getting lynched today and not getting lynched today, and you know which option I'd prefer.

[DeasVail]

One can always hope.

And then it probably doesn't matter, but if you want the game to end quickly, then lynching me is not the way to do it.

[DeasVail]

Oh ok.

[DeasVail]

Ok, well all I have to say is that I don't agree with the townreads on Konowa really.

[DeasVail]

I think that it's most likely either you or NS.

People don't even usually listen to me when they think I'm town, so it's hardly worth it considering you're probably the lynch after NS & me anyway if you're scum.

[DeasVail]

Well it would seem my assassin was successful.

[DeasVail]

did you just claim scum dv?

Um not really no.

[DeasVail]

I'd still prefer Konowa over NS if anyone's interested in that by the way.

[DeasVail]

I haven't read into it like I normally would, and I always feel that it's hard to read NS, but he's generally felt like town to me here, and obviously the scumread on you isn't giving up like I thought it was and actually seems genuine now (and weird to come from him as scum).

The main thing that makes me question him as scum is still the vote for Nacho.

If you vote for a scumbuddy in that kind of situation, then I think that you'd commit yourself to their wagon. You're basically making the decision whether to bus them or not. So if you vote for them, you've decided to bus. I don't think there was anything really that made it a good idea for NS to suddenly not bus anymore, and if he had made the decision to bus, then switching back to Nacho is the kind of thing that from his perspective would attract more attention than supporting Nacho from the beginning would have done. I think as scum, it's much more awkward to vote for a scumbuddy in that kind of situation and then unvote.

I'm not sure of this, and everyone except konowa I feel is more than he is, but there's nothing this strong for me that indicates Konowa-town, and there are things I find scummy about Konowa that I've said. I don't think your case on NS is that bad, but none of it really feels that significant to me I guess.

PEdit: Ok, and I may be wrong, but nothing brought up for him being town has been very convincing to me.

[DeasVail]

I'm town. Someone is scum.

[DeasVail]

Tammy, I'm voting for NS because I don't see Konowa getting lynched at this stage. Also, I think being so blatant about trying not to be lynched is something I probably wouldn't do as scum honestly.

Also, I didn't mean to say your case was bad. Maybe you're right and I'm wrong (which could easily be the case), or maybe you have really good points which happen to be wrong in this case, they're just not the kind of things that make me think "Yes! NS is scum!"

[DeasVail]

Well it would seem my assassin was successful.

what the fuck is this post?

I thought it was funny that you didn't get to hammer me.

[DeasVail]

Unless you slept for 24 hours.

[DeasVail]

Empire, I think my earlier point is more relevant now that he's obviously not scum giving up.

Tammy, please don't listen too much to my response to your post, especially since it's only me. With Konowa, it was mainly his weird comment about Mehdi flipping scum and his lack of interaction with Baby Spice. There are townish things about him too, but he's the least town for me.

PEdit: Hmm maybe you're right then. I haven't played with NS-scum in a while, although I'm voting for NS anyway and it's not like I'm going to be able to decide between them.

Yeah, I don't really like that reason for town Konowa because it's what people have said about me when I've been scum before, and although it's possible to slip up a bit (as I feel I have done a bit recently as scum), I don't think it's

too

hard to replicate town play.

[DeasVail]

Um, I don't really know if I should say this, but I feel like it, so....

Empire, just vote NS (or Konowa if you suddenly want to). I'm town and you can trust that. I just feel like things would be so much easier if I could be seen as town.

And if this can't happen, which I'd totally understand, then probably make the decision sooner rather than later and don't beat yourself up too much over it, as the order doesn't

really

matter in the end.

[DeasVail]

You know, DeasFlail could be my new nickname.

[DeasVail]

Well I like it better than the other version.

[DeasVail]

Snow, I'm not sure what your point is, but 1013 and 1083 are not really posts I'd expect you to understand (they're related to history with NS).

And about the pushing serious suspects, would you listen to me if I did?

The answer is no, isn't it?

[DeasVail]

And I'm not going to be some ridiculous show-pony that works on a case on someone not because anyone will read it and consider it, but to possibly make people think I'm town (which is obviously not going to happen, especially when it's totally what I'd do as scum anyway)

[DeasVail]

NS, only reason for a gunsmith to be in the game is if Snow is town.

[DeasVail]

I think what SnowStorm is saying is that if you do somehow flip Town, you words postmortem would carry more weight. Presenting why you think I'm more likely to be scum than NS would help Town in the next Day phase.

lol

Empire, come on, this is probably from scum.

[DeasVail]

Eh, I assumed scum would have claimed doc, although I guess smart scum wouldn't.

If we lynch mafia and the game is still going, then he gets lynched straight away, but no point worrying about it now.

[DeasVail]

First, thinking that I'm going to be able to have any influence on later lynches considering how things have gone so far is a bit silly, but not necessarily

that

scummy.

Most importantly though, saying that me typing up a case on you would help the town, is not something that town would think, believe or say, but is the kind of thing scum trying to be town may do.

PEdit: Um... ok. What didn't I respond to?

[DeasVail]

I'm pretty sure I made new points in La-La Land (at least on you). And I think this latest post of yours is scummy as well. I still disagree with that, especially since the majority opinion is that it's definitely going to be NS and me lynched before you. And it just doesn't happen when I'm town. So many times I've been lynched/killed as town with scumreads that have survived to the end (and some I've actually explained fairly well), and I don't know if I'd even be able to say anything more than I've already said. And my main point is:

If you're town, you don't think that me ranting on about how you're scum will help the town. (Well it could put everyone off I guess, but I don't think that was your intention with the post)

And if I think something was scummy before, why would I not think it scummy now, especially when everyone else I find to be fairly town and even other aspects of your play are not scummy or townish?

[DeasVail]

You're still not distinguishing why I'm more likely to be scum than NS.

I'm pretty sure I have.

You are more scummy than he is.

[DeasVail]

I'm sorry.

Also I'd lean Konowa over NS because NS's jump from Baby Spice to Nacho (considering when he voted for Baby) was really strange for scum imo.

NS is still more town than Konowa (and his recent post is not very good, but isn't really that scummy either).

Also don't like the "Konowa is playing like he did as town, not playing like he did as scum" towncase for him considering how town everyone else is (even NS).

I haven't read into it like I normally would, and I always feel that it's hard to read NS, but he's generally felt like town to me here, and obviously the scumread on you isn't giving up like I thought it was and actually seems genuine now (and weird to come from him as scum).

The main thing that makes me question him as scum is still the vote for Nacho.

If you vote for a scumbuddy in that kind of situation, then I think that you'd commit yourself to their wagon. You're basically making the decision whether to bus them or not. So if you vote for them, you've decided to bus. I don't think there was anything really that made it a good idea for NS to suddenly not bus anymore, and if he had made the decision to bus, then switching back to Nacho is the kind of thing that from his perspective would attract more attention than supporting Nacho from the beginning would have done. I think as scum, it's much more awkward to vote for a scumbuddy in that kind of situation and then unvote.

I'm not sure of this, and everyone except konowa I feel is more than he is, but there's nothing this strong for me that indicates Konowa-town, and there are things I find scummy about Konowa that I've said. I don't think your case on NS is that bad, but none of it really feels that significant to me I guess.

PEdit: Ok, and I may be wrong, but nothing brought up for him being town has been very convincing to me.

Empire, I think my earlier point is more relevant now that he's obviously not scum giving up.

Tammy, please don't listen too much to my response to your post, especially since it's only me. With Konowa, it was mainly his weird comment about Mehdi flipping scum and his lack of interaction with Baby Spice. There are townish things about him too, but he's the least town for me.

PEdit: Hmm maybe you're right then. I haven't played with NS-scum in a while, although I'm voting for NS anyway and it's not like I'm going to be able to decide between them.

Yeah, I don't really like that reason for town Konowa because it's what people have said about me when I've been scum before, and although it's possible to slip up a bit (as I feel I have done a bit recently as scum), I don't think it's

too

hard to replicate town play.

I think what SnowStorm is saying is that if you do somehow flip Town, you words postmortem would carry more weight. Presenting why you think I'm more likely to be scum than NS would help Town in the next Day phase.

lol

Empire, come on, this is probably from scum.

[DeasVail]

I don't think Zach ever really looked like he wanted to lynch Konowa.

When it was me and him on Snow and Johhog on Konowa with me obviously able to vote for either, he could have easily just moved to konowa and told me to do so and then he would have had a better counterwagon if he was open to lynching him.

[DeasVail]

Oh, I don't think that was a scumslip.

[DeasVail]

I'm finding it very hard to decide between talking and not talking.

[DeasVail]

Well done guys! Sorry if I said anything mean to anyone, and sorry to my buddies for not playing too well.

But yeah, town played really well, and empire, you need to be more sure of yourself considering that you were right the whole time and kept saying you needed to reconsider things on Day 2 or 3 or something!

[DeasVail]

http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/y3huEzAWKzY

grats on making the right decision in the end tammy (and everyone else too)

[DeasVail]

And thanks for modding Zar. Loved the ending

[DeasVail]

I'm pretty sure one of my posts has the mafia QT.

[DeasVail]

Yeah, your reads were amazing.