Mini 1446, Generic Mafia (Game Over)

[Infinity 324]

Hi guys, this is Infinity, I'll probably be posting a lot more than IFM

Reads:

Fegelein - null (Did scummy things, but had a relaxed attitude to being voted)
Bacde - town (Much more relaxed playstyle than in Mini 1433)
Horus - scum (Strong gut read, and many things he did were scummy)
T S O - leaning scum (Terrible reaction to being voted, but he brought up some good points and has scummy people on his wagon, but is an newb and isn't scumhunting)
Palmar - town (brought up very good points early on, gut read)
beastcharizard - null (Is acting really weirdly this game, I don't know that it's related to alignment)
Human Destroyer - town
roflcopter - town
Zhero - scum (Lurkish, opportunistic reads)

With that, I'll VOTE: Horus. Palmar, who do you think is scum?

[Infinity 324]

Did any of you know CES's meta?

I didn't really like that CES hammer by Horus since his reaction to his wagon gave me town vibes. If others disagree on this, though, I won't hold it against him. He's still my top scum read.

[Infinity 324]

^^ That's what I was going to do too. More info about who is aligned with who this afternoon

[Infinity 324]

HD townread is mostly PoE. Also the one game I saw him scum he was

really

scummy. Also what I've done so far could have easily come from scum, just saying.

[Infinity 324]

Why doesn't anyone agree with my Horus gutread The points you're making are good, just I'm 80-85% sure Horus is scum (my gut reads tend to be really good). I'll move my vote if its necessary for a lynch.

[Infinity 324]

Reread the thread. Zhero is town. The people who I think are aligned/not aligned:

Aligned:
Horus & Fegelein
Ankiamus & Fegelein
roflcopter & Bacde

Not aligned:
Horus & Palmar
HD & Horus
Horus & Zhero
beastcharizard & Horus
Ankiamus & TSO

Feel free to ask me to explain any of this. (It has to wait until morning though)

Iso on ankiamus and implications of these will also come in the morning.

[Infinity 324]

Yes, that part I mainly got from Ankiamus, who felt like he was trying to find reasons to vote fegel. He's still A gut town read though, so I'm hesitant to vote him now. Basically, I just read through and took notes and didn't have time to analyze it. Explanations:

Zhero - town: 212 in particular was really anti-opportunistic and anti-OMGUS. He also brought up a good point about the CES wagon and I can see how everything he posts could be written from a town mindset. Also gut.

Horus - fegelein: 82 felt like it was trying to dismiss the Horus wagon as an RVS-ish wagon, and moving on, which everyone kinda went along with

Bacde - palmar (idk how I missed this): Basically 61.

Rofl - Bacde: Gut based on the exchange where Rolf convinced Bacde to vote CES, however only really relevant if it's scum-scum, which it isn't.

Horus - palmar: Normally when two scum are on an equal level of scumminess, they either bus or buddy each other. Horus had his vote on Palmar, but palmar had a town read on Horus, making me feel like one is town.

HD - Horus: second paragraph in 177

Horus - zhero: Similar to Horus/palmar, Horus voted zhero but zhero had a townread on Horus.

Beastcharizard - Horus: Horus gave bc a townread without explanation, which is unusual for what I've seen from Horus so far. It seems like buddying to me. (Also I didn't find that post particularly towny) Here is Horus's post.

On my phone & don't have time, I'll finish later.

[Infinity 324]

Infinity, I did jump onto the Horus wagon at the very beginning and then changed later due to better evidence. Horus's post isn't all that well made I will agree with you there but putting us together based on a single post is a little obscure if you ask me. Perhaps you are trying to come in and take any slight scum tells that IFM had done and sweep them under the rug with your super aggressive approach. While that may not be the case it is still a large possibility. Also, I know opinions can change but at first you said Horus and I were not aligned and then you switched to that we were. That is weird to me.

I still hold that you are not aligned. I think Horus was trying to win over your support by calling you town. Scum often give town reads with very little reasoning to try to "buddy" townies like that.

I still think fegel is scum, just I believe my gut scum read on Horus more.

[Infinity 324]

I gave a good reason for why zhero is town, why do people think he's scum.

[Infinity 324]

Sorry, what are condradictory about them?

[Infinity 324]

Um...I don't really remember why I said ankiamus and tso were not aligned. Sorry. Keep in mind that this:

Horus - palmar: Normally when two scum are on an equal level of scumminess, they either bus or buddy each other. Horus had his vote on Palmar, but palmar had a town read on Horus, making me feel like one is town.

HD - Horus: second paragraph in 177

Horus - zhero: Similar to Horus/palmar, Horus voted zhero but zhero had a townread on Horus.

Beastcharizard - Horus: Horus gave bc a townread without explanation, which is unusual for what I've seen from Horus so far. It seems like buddying to me. (Also I didn't find that post particularly towny) Here is Horus's post.

was about people who are

not

aligned.

I'll check out the zhero case, but I

really

do not think he's scum.

[Infinity 324]

There's no wonder Hoopla died then. I have to agree with you on TSO and Zhero.

I feel more confident putting my vote on Zhero though, he kept trying to reinforce the point that I was scum, when it was Ankamius doing all the talking. It came across as backseat enforcing.

UNVOTE: Beast
VOTE: Zhero

I really dislike this logic. You assume the scum are idiots. You can try to push wagons on people you think are scum even if someone else comes up with the arguments, and scum are not more/less likely to just follow their partners. Also (this applies to HD's logic too) I thought Zhero actually brought up a good point about CES lynch. Why else is zhero scum?

[Infinity 324]

Also in a way the above quoted post is OMGUS.

[Infinity 324]

Infinity, why so flip-floppity? I thought I was a null read, now I'm your second highest scum read?

Yes, but I reread the thread, and I feel like ankiamus's attack on you was a bus, and early on you were trying to dismiss horus's wagon and move on, when the wagon actually had good reasoning. Also, PoE kicked in, because I changed my read on zhero to town. Keep in mind that there are only two scum left, and you and horus are the only people I have a scumread on.

[Infinity 324]

And then there's the good old CES town/Zhero scum CES scum/Zhero town tell. He flipped town, didn't he?

Yes, but would you vote for someone if you didn't think the people on the wagon believed in their scumread of him?

I'm going to place a vote after I re-read.

Yes, and please reread this post in particular and tell me zhero is scum. He's just so anti-opportunistic, so anti-OMGUS in that post that it really only makes sense if he's town.

TSO's really being opportunistic at the moment, stating he'll jump on the largest wagon today, while also jumping on the largest wagon yesterday that wasn't him

to save his bacon.

Spoiler alert: Most people think the largest wagon is scum. You, rofl, and bacde were also on the largest wagon yesterday. Also he gave an explanation for the bolded which makes sense imo.

TSO could still be scum, though. Sorry for all the spamming and disorganized thoughts.

[Infinity 324]

It would make sense for TSO to be the 3P who shot ankiamus.

[Infinity 324]

Hey, has anyone played with fegel-scum before? If so, is he good at dealing with pressure?

[Infinity 324]

It would make sense for TSO to be the 3P who shot ankiamus.

yeah if he feels like getting himself murdered

What do you mean?

[Infinity 324]

And I know SK hunting is a scumtell. I don't care. If I have an opinion, I think it would be anti-town not to voice it. (I don't agree with the tell if you're not actually pushing a lynch)

[Infinity 324]

And I know SK hunting is a scumtell. I don't care. If I have an opinion, I think it would be anti-town not to voice it. (I don't agree with the tell if you're not actually pushing a lynch)

its that on top of how it doesn't even look like you believe in your reads

you made a lot of connection cases and then your vote isn't even based on that

it feels to me like you are trying to plant seeds of confusion and doubt while simultaneously trying to fit in by voting somewhere that doesn't make sense based on your reads

What the heck? All my reads right now support a fegelein/horus team. Horus is my stronger scumread. Therefore, I'm voting horus.

so many associative tells in Ankamius's ISO; killing scum-Ankamius is basically suicide.

TSO needs death either way, I just don't think he's the third party you're saying he is.

Which are you talking about? Because I can't see any.

[Infinity 324]

Also, SK-TSO wouldn't know that ankiamus was scum.

[Infinity 324]

All my reads right now support a fegelein/horus team.

This should say "all my alignment reads"

[Infinity 324]

*vote remains on me*

[Infinity 324]

Do you think there are associative tells between ankiamus and TSO?

[Infinity 324]

I'll get you a medal for your RVS vote right after I laugh at you for pretending it's actually a valid in-game interaction which constitutes voting.
Your second point is admittedly valid, but it's all you've got. There were multiple wagons going on around you at that time yet you chose to hop in CES's, for one post where you felt he "was slapping things on?" If I was voting, I'd have a more concrete reason than that.

I like some of this logic here. HD's "stuff I said earlier" was nothing more than a side note, and he didn't say that but instead defended it with one relevant and one irrelevant (calling a wagon boring is not a scumtell) post. The post in question was weird. That said, I don't think that post was necessarily scummy, or that HD needed much reasoning since it was "sheeping rofl". And he isn't aligned with horus. So I don't really wanna lynch HD. But I feel like this is a towny post, so I don't want to lynch TSO either.

tl;dr Still lynch Horus and Fegelein.

[Infinity 324]

Ok, I read fegel's meta. He's a lot closer to his towngame. (Bacde you can vote me for not believing in my reads, but meta+gut > 1 associative tell imo). Let me reread iso's, but first I'll rule out certain possibilities:

Zhero-scum
Bacde-scum
Horus-town
HD-scum

[Infinity 324]

beastcharizard - Weird. I can't really read this person. I'd like Horus to explain this.

Fegelein - town

Palmar - town-ish? He seems to not take many positions.

roflcopter - townish, but seems to push hard for the lynches of two townies. Pushed really hard for a CES lynch, then pushes for a zhero lynch no matter what CES flips. Almost like he/she is trying to set up mislynches. Is rofl good at faking town playstyle?

TSO - probtown.

beastcharizard, why couldn't you just place a vote down and unvote later here? Palmar, is there town motivation for being worried about voting history?

@fegel I read your scum game and a mini where you died N1.

------

I'm going to actually make a case on Horus sometime.

[Infinity 324]

Thank you bacde

One point I want to make about Horus is that he said at the end of D1 that they'd look into zhero if CES was town, and ankiamus if he was scum. However,

ankiamus and zhero were doing the exact same thing: defending CES.

And CES just *happened* to be town, and ankiamus just *happened* to be scum. How do you like the zhero wagon now, huh?

[Infinity 324]

Zhero was doing exactly that, though. Look at this post.

[Infinity 324]

I see your point there, but his 333

did

come off as a defense to me (and also had attacks on others btw). I'll believe for the moment that you saw what Zhero and Ankiamus were doing as different.

Why didn't you give any explanation on your beastcharizard townread?

[Infinity 324]

I don't see how anyone can read zhero as scum, but they still do. I don't think you should assume everyone has the same read on him as you do. The only reason I mention this is because I think you'd know better and that you're just trying to avoid making up BS in order to buddy beastcharizard. Personally I had beast as null-leaning-scum before your unexplained town read on him, which is another reason I thought you saying that was weird. Did anyone else get town vibes from that post?

[Infinity 324]

Horus case

Post 42:

This felt really fabricated to me. What exactly was intriguing about it? Why didn't you either look back to see what was scummy or just trust fegelein? Were you afraid of being called out for BS reasoning or for being a sheep?

Following posts sound a lot like "why is there a wagon on me based on things I can't defend myself against" which is scummy because townies shouldn't have to defend themselves.

Zhero's #98 felt somewhat opportunistic, piggybacking on roflcopter's questioning of Fegelein without really adding anything substantive (the implied slip was a serious stretch in my opinion). Something about the timing of that post, in the midst of Zhero's otherwise near-absent activity level, seems a little too fortuitous.

I really don't like this. I agree that Zhero's reasoning was a stretch, but his post really had no relationship to rofl's questioning of fegel. Also, changing reads in the middle of the post is weird, especially when the read in question is the next-biggest wagon.

I don't like this post because horus misrep's what TSO is doing in that post. Horus accuses TSO of "fighting for a null read" but TSO was really pointing out how it's weird that bacde put him as scum when bacde couldn't find any specific reason to call him scum, when I don't think it has been clarified that it was a reaction test. He also accuses TSO of "deflecting" by prodding lurkers and asking a question, when those statements had nothing to do with the attack on him.

As I said, the beastcharizard thing is really weird if I'm not the only one who didn't think he was obvtown.

Also if zhero is town the point about this post still stands.

Plus there's my gut which is usually good at finding scum especially when I'm not playing. (I had a scumread on horus before I replaced in)

[Infinity 324]

No, I was intrigued because Fegelein was claiming he'd drawn a strong read out of RVS when I hadn't yet, so I wanted to know what he saw that I was missing. I think that was pretty self-evident, but apparently not since this keeps coming up.

Except he didn't claim to have a strong read, he just thought palmar was the scummiest. They're different things.

What post are you referencing here? I remember pointing out that the reasoning behind the wagon on me was clever because I couldn't defend myself against it, but the point wasn't to whine but rather to suggest there were likely Scum behind the wagon. Again, I think that was pretty clear at the time, but maybe you're referencing a different post?

I was referencing multiple posts, that and posts where you asked people to explain it when it was pretty evidently gut. Gut is a viable reason to start a wagon in RVS imo.

It may have been "weird" (though I don't think it was, since I explained why my read changed in that very post), but how is it scummy?

Weird from a town mindset, therefore probably coming from scum. You explain why you changed your read, but I thought it was bad reasoning since zhero's post didn't have anything to do with rofl's questioning of fegel and I don't think he was in any way "piggybacking" on what rofl was doing.

Pretty sure he was fighting for a null-read, and he did look like he was deflecting - trying to change the subject by pointing out inactivity.

Nope.

Again, weird is not scummy, and again, I've explained why I thought he was Town.

In this instance, I think weird

is

scummy, and it looks like buddying to me when people normally explain their reads but one random time they don't.

[Infinity 324]

Palmar, TSO is probtown. Join the horus wagon please.

Horus, do you hold that you've done nothing scummy all game?

[Infinity 324]

Yeah fegel here is the case on Horus. Here are the responses to horus's responses.

TSO, what do you think of the Horus wagon? What do you think of my case on zhero-town?

[Infinity 324]

Tired of illogical wagons? Introducing the all-new...Horus wagon! With the official Bacde™ Seal of Approval, you'll never have to sheep newbs again! With an official case brought to you by our very own Infinity 324, it is guaranteed to be 100% more effective than the Zhero wagon! If you're scum looking for town credit, Horus is the wagon for you. You're guaranteed to get two (2) days' worth of town credit! But hurry! There are only three more spots left! And the offer ends soon, on May 22, 2013 at 6:25 am EST! So don't wait! Join the Horus wagon now!

[Infinity 324]

Bacde, who is horus's scumpartner?

[Infinity 324]

Can you please give reasons for TSO being scum? Because I think it's horus.

[Infinity 324]

Hey HD did your read on TSO change overnight? Is it because of ankiamus and TSO?

[Infinity 324]

Because of ankiamus and CES* lol

[Infinity 324]

Or it could be that ank just wanted to seem "reasonable" while still disagreeing with the largest wagon so he put his vote on the 2nd largest wagon. Makes sense if you ask me since TSO was probably not gonna get lynched at that point.

[Infinity 324]

Basically, I don't think it was a coincidence that ankiamus's vote was on the second largest wagon

[Infinity 324]

Except it would be suspicious for ank to have his vote on anything but the second largest wagon

So it makes sense whether TSO is town or scum

But TSO could have been lynched today...

hmm I'll have to think about this

[Infinity 324]

Oh wait that was after zhero's 333

So ank could have voted TSO thinking to gain towncred from being the on the second largest wagon, planning to lynch zhero the next day

It makes perfect sense regardless of TSO's alignment

[Infinity 324]

Also look through his ISO

Doesn't his aggressive play give you townvibes?

[Infinity 324]

True. What do you think of 489?

[Infinity 324]

the goal is to look like you were going for a scum lynch instead of a town lynch.

This

But ankiamus was planning to get zhero lynched instead

And make sure TSO doesn't flip

[Infinity 324]

no that defeats the purpose of joining the tso wagon

The purpose is to try to make it look like you're trying to get someone else lynched

When really CES was going to get lynched no mater what

[Infinity 324]

Except he didn't claim to have a strong read, he just thought palmar was the scummiest. They're different things.

Are we really going to get sucked into a debate over how strong his read was? It was strong enough to warrant a vote.

Ok

But if you could undstand fegel's reasoning, why couldn't you read the thread and find it yourself?

Gut is a viable reason to vote in RVS, but I don't think it was gut, and I don't think we were in RVS anymore.

I meant early in the game, not RVS. And it was gut, "feels fake" is pretty much gut.

So we disagree.

Ok

I'll leave this to others to decide whether this was bad reasoning

Yep.

Ok

Again, I'll leave this to everyone else

I thought it was evident - apparently you didn't see it the way I did, but I explained it when you asked. If you're calling me Scum for this I assume you think BeastCharizard is Scum, too? Do you have independent scumreads on him, because he still looks obv-town to me. I'd like to hear this.

Nope, I had a null-leaning-scum read on bc before your unexplained town read on him, but he seems townier with you-scum because scum often give unexplained townreads on townies to try to earn their support.

I'm not 100% on HD being town either

But at one point Horus forgot HD had a vote on him so Horus-scum -> HD-town.

[Infinity 324]

I know, but lazy.

Also Infinity dude is almost certainly town so he looks like a cool guy to sheep

I mean, I am a newb, but Bacde is pretty obv town too

...I hope I can be scum sometime so people can say I'm obv town then too

[Infinity 324]

Do you not think this post looks like buddying? I mean it's possible they're on a team, but I think Horus would have explained a townread on his scum buddy.

[Infinity 324]

^^ True. Also Horus was the one to hammer, so

More vote on Horus!!!

[Infinity 324]

Wait horus's hammer was 3 posts after that and mentioned nothing about CES in between

MOAR VOTES

[Infinity 324]

3 posts after, meaning Horus only posted 2 things in between.

[Infinity 324]

Thank you Rofl

Two more votes!

[Infinity 324]

Yea so to summarize the Horus case he's scum because of misrep'ing, ingenuous actions to avoid making up BS and hammering his townread CES.

[Infinity 324]

Bacde, I feel like absta in Mini 1433

[Infinity 324]

fun fact: he did the same thing with his tso vote, go look

No, he had a scum read on TSO after tso's "scummy" posts

you're not absta until you fakeclaim cop with a guilty on me and I have no counter because the only reason I know you are fakeclaiming is my scum knowledge

seriously, that play took balls

Lol

I mean the Zdenek/xegarus part.

[Infinity 324]

Yeah

That just means he's suffering from a severe case of confirmation virus

It's going around like an epidemic

Don't worry, me and Bacde will figure it out

[Infinity 324]

confirmation bias* lol

[Infinity 324]

Oh wait

Horus actually explained why he hammered

But that's mainly because of all the self-meta

Which is bad logic, but not necessarily a towntell

Horus is still 85-90% scum

[Infinity 324]

Wait...repost

Horus actually explained why he hammered

but that's only because CES used self-meta

self-meta is bad logic, but not a scumtell

so it's a bad reason to hammer

so horus is still scum

[Infinity 324]

Wait nonono

Horus didn't claim

Wut if he's like the doc

[Infinity 324]

If horus flips town fegel I'm going to kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiilllllll you

but horus won't flip town

so it's all good

[Infinity 324]

I know

it's just you hammered without a claim

but I guess it makes sense if you didn't think he could be a PR

[Infinity 324]

I once read a game where scum hammered an unclaimed cop and got away with it

[Infinity 324]

Lol bacde you're in every game

So horus...whatcha gonna flip?

[Infinity 324]

Yay I feel so proud of myself On my first game at mafiascum, on the first day I replaced in I switched the wagon from town to scum

Here's how I view the situation now.

Confirmed town: Me, Bacde
Strong town reads: Zhero, Fegelein
Town reads: Palmar
Weak town reads: rofl, TSO
Scum: beastcharizard

VOTE: beastcharizard

The only reason I hesitate is that I think Horus would have either explained a townread on his scum buddy, or wouldn't have had a townread at all, but I don't trust my aligned tells anymore.

@fegel Thanks for hammering, those scum defenses always make me so paranoid. But if I'm not paranoid then I start to catch confirmation bias. So thanks. And I think there's a vig not a 3P since no one died last night, meaning it's probably 1-shot. But there could be a doc so idk.

[Infinity 324]

Also in terms of setup spec do people think odd/even night (I forget which) watcher/neighborizer/1-shot vig/vt's vs. goon/goon/jailkeeper seems balanced? Should there be another 1-shot town PR? Or do you think it's more likely to have some type of protective role and an SK?

P-edit: Neighborizer can choose someone, and can talk to that person at night for the rest of the game.

[Infinity 324]

^^ lol

I feel like I already am

since I read so many games

Anyway yeah, 2nd neighbor should claim

[Infinity 324]

Agree that the neighbor should claim.

Infinity, why the Palmar town read?

Gut, logical thinking, early on the horus wagon. Not really seeing the bus vote there. Now that I think about it, though, I'd be willing to lynch Palmar over TSO; he really doesn't look like noobscum to me.

[Infinity 324]

How am I scum exactly?

I would like that question to be answered by both Feg and Infinity.

Personally I believe that either Feg or Infinity are the actual scum. The hammer on Fegs part could be part of the mafias plan to clean Feg and for him to slide into an easy victory. Infinity who has said I was not paired with Horus since he started playing is now saying I am paired with Horus. It just stinks of an opportunity to get me lynched which means that he is not lynched.

vjiwheihkgbuih

This is terrible logic. I agree fegel could be scum because of my alignment tells, but that means he would have

hammered his only scumbuddy D2.

Who do you know that would be bold enough to do that as scum? For that reason, I don't trust my alignment tells and I am instead going with process of elimination/gut to conclude that you are the last scum. (This issue was addressed in my first post of the day look harder please)

[Infinity 324]

alignment tells -> aligned tells

[Infinity 324]

TSO is town. Read his ISO and tell me that's noob scum.

Scum is in {palmar, Rofl, beast}.

Should we just massclaim? If there's an SK they will just claim vig and the info about whether there's a doc will help us determine if there's a vig or an SK.

[Infinity 324]

I would like to point out that i did have a vote on Horus at the very beginning. You are probably just going to say that it is busing or whatever but it wasn't since I believe i gave good logic for the vote.

Bussing can have good logic.

Another thing you are going to claim is that I am 1 of 2 people who had not voted before the hammer went down and that I had promised to post soon but didn't before the hammer fell. Me not voting makes it seem like I was just trying to by time so that I didn't have to vote Horus. This is false.

Ok

Why didn't you put a vote down in these posts? Couldn't you vote but just unvote later if necessary?

His reads change as fast as day changes into night and night to day. He has yet to settle on whom he thinks is allied with whom or whom he thinks is really scum and not scum.

Um

I changed my reads based on PoE

And I'm ignoring aligned tells for now because that means fegel would be scum which I refuse to believe

This is to put some pressure, probably not a lot since I need 2 more votes until I am gone, on him. Add to this my logic of how he is potentially scummy.

Uhh...how am I expected to respond to this if I know it's a pressure vote? I mean, if I know it isn't intended to lynch how do you expect me to react as scum?

I'm getting a weird feeling that beast is town. I'll iso him in the morning.

[Infinity 324]

Ok I iso'd beast+ank+horus and beast is town. It doesn't really click into place with beast scum, whereas with beast town it does.

Roflcopter has used bad logic throughout the game. The way he wanted to lynch zhero regardless of CES's alignment looks like setting up mislynches.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Roflcopter

red toads

beastcharizard, you think fegel is scum. But fegel has been exposed to large amounts of pressure throughout the game and dealt with them in a towny way. Do you see fegel as a person that would be bold enough to hammer his only scumbuddy D2?

[Infinity 324]

Also, does anyone else think that when Horus knew he was gonna be lynched, he set up a Beast mislynch by saying Beast was "obv-town?"

This

If rofl and palmar are town, we'll consider lynching fegel.

[Infinity 324]

Beast still remains the best lynch. Just because Horus called Beast obv-Town doesn't make him not scum. In fact, that's a WIFOM defence of Beast's actions, which is therefore a paradox, therefore equalling a null tell.

But that's what it felt like to me. ISO beast+ank+horus please

[Infinity 324]

Not vig

Roflcopter has used bad logic throughout the game.

hey look a bold statement with absolutely no supporting evidence

Red toads = reaction test

I thought I actually had evidence to support it

I don't like this CES case and here's why: It makes no sense that you're calling out CES for the naked vote when he could have just been reacting to TSO's overreaction. I don't think it's scummy to appeal to scumhunting and not scumhunt if you're only using it as a towntell. The other linked post is a reasonable argument. Ad homs also aren't scummy.

Also your response is weird since you imply I'm scummy but don't say it.

Do you still think zhero is scum?

[Infinity 324]

@Mod There are only 2 people not voting.

TSO, who do you think is scum?

rofl's above post looks really lazy & towny, especially since he ignored my entire argument.

@rofl Why did your read on zhero change? Is it because of horus? My case?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: palmar

[Infinity 324]

Fegel, I'd like links to beast's meta.

[Infinity 324]

Ok I iso'd Horus+Palmar+ank and I can't read palmar. He's been really weird this game, going from really wall-posty and explaining to really lazy. He could be trying to buddy me. Palmar, why specifically am I town?

Next up is fegel+horus+ank.

I feel like one of {fegelein, beastcharizard} are scum because meta/gut says fegel is town but beast is scum, but fegel is aligned with ank/horus while beast is not.

[Infinity 324]

A fegel+ank+horus team has things going for it, like fegel backing up horus's potential buddying of beast, but it doesn't

exactly

click into place. Hmm...this makes me more confident that either fegelein or beastcharizard is scum. I want those links, fegel.

Palmar or fegelein could be disinterested in the game because two of their scumbuddies are dead. Fegel appears suddenly reinterested, maybe because he has a chance of winning? I dunno, food for thought.

I'd be really surprised if scum was someone other than fegelein, beastcharizard, or palmar. I'm keeping my vote where it is until I get beast meta from fegel.

[Infinity 324]

Bleh

Bacde could be really good at faking different playstyles. Maybe he's just normally different as SK than as scum. I don't think rofl-scum would do this; I think he's town anyway.

Can games have both even- and odd-night watchers?

Oh well, if palmar is town we lynch rofl. Bacde should claim anyway.

GG all, thanks rofl, thanks to mod for an awesome setup

[Infinity 324]

Someone just hammer; let's get this over with.

[Infinity 324]

Town:
Even-night watcher
Odd-night watcher
Neighborizer
VT's

Bulletproof SK

Mafia:
Jailkeeper
Goon
Goon

There's probably another PR in there somewere. Let's massclaim first bacde then everyone else in no particular order (since we're all conftown) before we lynch tomorrow.

PEdit: Wut

If bacde is telling the truth, that means rofl is scum and palmar is town.

Town wins anyway, but idk whether to believe bacde

hmm....

[Infinity 324]

I don't see a reason for bacde to be lying

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Roflcopter

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sorry for having to be snippy with you infinity i've just been waiting for palmar or bacde to claim something i knew was a lie, i worked it all out in my empty neighborhood thread

Scumslip!

How did you know that palmar and bacde were scum?

[Infinity 324]

Summary of night actions

N1:
Maf kill Hoopla
Bacde kills ank
Palmar tracks bacde

N2:
Bacde kills me
Palmar protects me
Maf kill HD

[Infinity 324]

At that point I was convinced there was a 1-shot vig

But what I still don't understand is rofl-scum motivation for fakeclaiming at this point

PEdit: Ok so palmar visited bacde and HD died. Therefore palmar is mafia and bacde is an SK? What I'm asking is how did you know before palmar's claim

And sorry for not checking hoopla's role

[Infinity 324]

Bacde could just be messing with us now

But I want to know how you had it all figured about before any claims

And that really didn't make sense as a scum claim, but

I'm confused

UNVOTE:

PEdit: Claim fegel

VOTE: palmar

Also playing as though you're town is a bad idea as SK because once all the scum are dead they start looking for you...

...I think

I'm just really confused right now

PEdit2: @TSO Town wins, we're just trying to figure this situation out

[Infinity 324]

Makes sense fegel

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Bacde for lying

@rofl Bacde loses no matter what, but he must be lying I guess

PEdit: @Mod what happens if doc and bodyguard protect the same target which is targeted with a kill? Does the bodyguard die?

I don't know what BF is but I am a VT.

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[Infinity 324]

Umm ya I think rofl is town more than palmar so my vote stays on bacde

Wait rofl you still haven't explained how you knew bacde & palmar were scum before palmar claimed

[Infinity 324]

Yeah true...why didn't you claim vig bacde?

[Infinity 324]

@Mod

He hasn't claimed BF.

This is what I meant

[Infinity 324]

I'm guessing roflcopter risked guessing I was SK after he saw the JOAT track

But town autowins if they know scum is in {You, Palmar, Rofl} which is what happens when he claims watcher

[Infinity 324]

Mod, answer this

@Mod what happens if doc and bodyguard protect the same target which is targeted with a kill? Does the bodyguard die?

[Infinity 324]

BF - Bulletproof.

Silly acronym. Why don't you say BP?

I dunno why you think I'm lying--everything fits except for roflcopter

Because I have a stronger townread on rofl than on palmar

i didn't *know* until palm claimed something at odds with my watch info. it could have been a doc on bacde. but i reasoned this all out in the neighbor at which you can read post game.

Wait, but I thought this meant you knew beforehand?

PEdit: Palmar is confirmed scum; bacde didn't target me since fegel would have died.

[Infinity 324]

Since we know bacde is lying there's no reason to believe palmar over rofl. He isn't confirmed scum but there is little reason for bacde to lie about targeting me if rofl is scum anyway. And there's still the question of why rofl would claim as scum. So palmar is the remaining mafia.

@TSO I'm VT not BP.

[Infinity 324]

There's seriously no way that Palmar could have known that I killed ank except w/ a track so

Maybe there's 2 scum PR's. 1-shot tracker/jailkeeper/goon vs. SK vs. BG/odd-night tracker/even-night watcher/VT's seems really maf sided tho. SOMEONE HELP ME WHAT IS GOING ON

[Infinity 324]

We should massclaim by tomorrow

I have

Palmar - JoaT
rofl - even-night watcher
Fegelein - BG
Me - VT
TSO - VT
Bacde - SK
Zhero - ??
beast - ??

I guess that's just zhero and beast then

The reason I want you to claim is if you're both VT's either this setup is really maf sided, palmar is town or he's a really lucky guesser.

[Infinity 324]

Is there a reason rofl-scum fakeclaimed watcher and reduced the scum pile to 3 people with only him left?

[Infinity 324]

Oh wait, this

(also palmar could successfully claim that bacde visited ank because he knew bacde was sk as soon as the kill on him didn't go through)

Bacde could have been doc protected, but a successful guess seems more likely now.

[Infinity 324]

Lynch palmar? There is absolutely zero reason for Rofl to fakeclaim at this point; it's an autoloss for scum.

[Infinity 324]

I died

[Infinity 324]

lol yes

Palmar turned out to be really hard to read because of different playstyle I guess. I kinda slapped a townread on him due to logical thinking

only reason horus wagon died d1 was because of people looking at small things instead of the big picture

nice job rofl

ank being shot n1 was really bad for maf

[Infinity 324]

I guess my gut instinct reads were the best lmao.

My gut reads are always the best to the point where my job is often not to find who's scum, but to convince town they're scum

[Infinity 324]

Make sure you're constantly being active, giving reads, pressuring scumreads, etc. that way you find scum faster. A favorite way that I like to gain experience without actually playing is reading games.