Twin Trap (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Quilford]

HI PUNKS

VOTE: MINA

[Quilford]

Ill never let you have it! Nyahahaha

[Quilford]

Whos Jason?

Is it Bee pee sea??

[Quilford]

I also know nothing about any of you! Except Bbmolla! Hi bb

[Quilford]

Oh and a bit about ETL too

[Quilford]

Hey Mina what does your team say about me :3

[Quilford]

but tm is srs biz and we must act as such

I don't remember getting this memo D:

[Quilford]

VOTE: ETL

Being too knee-jerky

[Quilford]

However, you clearly didn't get the alignment you want, because you're lying scum for forgetting we were scum together in Marketplace.

Oh boo I did forget that!

However it may have something to do with the fact that

I lurked for half the game and let N do all the posting :s

[Quilford]

VOTE: ETL

Being too knee-jerky

What do you see that's knee-jerky in his posts?

A couple of questions/statements that seem a bit ill-thought-out.

[Quilford]

VOTE: ETL

Being too knee-jerky

What do you see that's knee-jerky in his posts?

A couple of questions/statements that seem a bit ill-thought-out.

Which ones?

First sentence of #23, #24, #28. Can you see why?

[Quilford]

Da ha! Now I'M the one asking the questions

[Quilford]

I could see it for the first bit of 23, but definitely not the others you cited.

Definitely not? How are you so sure? After all, Mara offers a good explanation in #30 as to why #28 doesn't really make much sense. Do you disagree?

[Quilford]

Re 24: "figure the other's alignment down the road" doesn't strike me as "immediately treating him as town"

[Quilford]

Do you think her being kneejerky is indicative of etlscum?

If so, why

I think it can be indicative of scum rushing out posts. Knee jerk wasn't the best word to use, I meant something more like responding to posts quickly and perhaps without a lot of thought.

[Quilford]

Quil, it wasn't the wording, or I would have said it was the wording. It was the tone and attitude towards him that I found odd.

Ah okay sure.

[Quilford]

ETL: Actually I think Alchemist was being a bit backhanded there to me. My response is that I did put a lot of thought into the right word to use but on balance realise I should have used multiple words instead.

[Quilford]

Anyway sleepy times! I have reads but HAH you aint gettin none of that yet folks

[Quilford]

ETL: Actually I think Alchemist was being a bit backhanded there to me. My response is that I did put a lot of thought into the right word to use but on balance realise I should have used multiple words instead.

I just couldn't resist the temptation tl be a smartass there. Lol

Yeah fair enough > _>

[Quilford]

:>

[Quilford]

Teehee! I like Mina's posts.

[Quilford]

I was but Android is updating and I need to use my phone to play some music to fall asleep to

[Quilford]

Alchemist why are you asking so many questions? Do you have any opinions? I wanna hear them

[Quilford]

I do as well, it's why I addressed a couple of questions to him, but I think it could be newbtownish to some extent.

[Quilford]

UNVOTE:

HRMMMM

[Quilford]

Mina why were you saying this game was easy?

[Quilford]

VOTE: Alchemist21

No reads. Not scumhunting.

[Quilford]

Mina I think we're in agreement about basically everything

[Quilford]

Me telling you my reads is not going to solve the problem of you not having any. Nevertheless, I basically did so in my most recent post.

[Quilford]

Unlike BBmolla, you've ostensibly read through the entire game.

[Quilford]

>:|

[Quilford]

Why?

[Quilford]

Alchemist, what do you make of the distinction I drew between you and BBmolla?

[Quilford]

Alchemist, what do you make of the distinction I drew between you and BBmolla?

It was a fair answer. I can see someone not holding them to the same expectations if there's reason to believe they haven't read the thread.

I still think you were sheeping Mina when you voted me though.

I think you can see my read on you reverse across the course of #89, #134, #135 and finally #148 if that helps.

[Quilford]

I'm not going to produce a reads list. But I will talk you through anything you're unsure about in my posting.

[Quilford]

Ask away!

[Quilford]

Regfan is wrong and we both know it, Mina. You know I would be a ball of catatonic gibbering nervousness as scum right now.

Nevertheless I will tell you more about my reads sometime soon, but it's 3 am and I have no idea why I'm awake so not now.

Alchemist is becoming increasingly desperate, his accusation to BBmolla of 'vote parking' and his attempts to bring other people's meta on him prove it. What matters is that he has not produced any read or gone through any process of scumhunting that was not in reaction to someone calling him scum. Anyone can lash out at their attackers when they feel their life is on the line, but only town can convincingly display their thought process as they pick through pieces of people's posts to try and figure out who scum is, and Alchemist has been doing none of that.

[Quilford]

You clearly don't know what scumhunting is. Scumhunting =/= posting reads lists.

Your assumption that I sheeped Mina rests on no solid evidence but on the presupposition that I'm scum, which itself is what you're trying to prove by arguing that I sheeped Mina. In fact, if you looked inside my Team PT you would see that at 8:59.17 am, a full hour before Mina made her reads post in thread, I posted a reads list basically the same as Mina's bar the position of two names.

This is the same thing as what you're doing when you accused BBmolla of looking like scum parking his vote. There's nothing to say that BBmolla isn't just town who is convinced of your alignment. You're just assuming he's scum and then using that to frame his actions as scummy, instead of any inherent scumminess in them. This is precisely how scum fake scumhunting, and you are doing it right now.

[Quilford]

You saw people start to scumread me and decided to hop on that wagon. You've been opportunistic, and you expect us to have some blind faith that you're Town?

Again, what you are doing is assuming that I am scum, and describing my behaviour 'in light' of that fact.

I can equally say that the fact that I hopped on your wagon after other people did is (1) not relevant, since I arrived at the conclusion that you were scum independently; (2) except in the sense that I was bolstered to vote for you by the fact that other people who I thought were town were now scumreading you.

Neither of us can prove either version of events. But you're the one using your version of events to argue that I'm scum, which is the thing you're supposing in the first place to build your version of events. It's embedded in the very language you used: 'decided to hop on', 'being opportunistic'.

[Quilford]

So Alchemist, define 'scumhunting' please.

[Quilford]

And you would charge me with not doing that?

[Quilford]

Similarly. I wonder if anyone else agrees with you that I haven't been scumhunting given your definition.

[Quilford]

Quilford, as a fair warning I don't think you're going to get anything productive by continuing to argue with Alchemist at this point. I think the case has been made, and turning this into a back-and-forth might start to bog up the thread. Remember the adage about not convincing scum that they're scum?

YES, MOOOOM

[Quilford]

I think it's really weird that BPC is assigning his own reasons for

my

read.

Can you explain this?

I think I understand what was going on here, if you want me to explain.

[Quilford]

Actually, purple names indicate confirmed town

[Quilford]

So what's his case then?

[Quilford]

:I

Regfan can take a long walk off a short pier as far as I'm concerned. I invite you to show him some of my lurkaderp scum meta. What's his main point against me?

[Quilford]

Actually, considering that Regfan has been scum with me in no less than 3 games, all of which I flaked massively in, I'm quite interested as to how meta apparently doesn't factor into his read on me at all.

[Quilford]

That should be 'Regfan has been in no less than 3 games with me as scum'

[Quilford]

Okay, why are you so antsy to get it out of me right now, particularly since you seem to be townreading me? (As a teaser, he did say the "gibbering nervous wreck" post felt like exaggerating how bad it was. And said that you being engaged "wasn't a towntell" when I brought it up, and he only had old meta of you.)

I don't like being scumread as town, it makes me feel bad. (This is partly why I can't let go of Alchemist. The other part is because he is

obviously scum

)

Calling myself a "gibbering nervous wreck" was partly meant to be humour (but apparently nobody knows what that is any more) but it is also close to how I feel every time I click submit on a post that I know, as scum, is full of terrifyingly bad faux-scumhunting that I would lynch myself in a hot second for. Just because I somehow manage to survive in some of my scum games doesn't mean they're not absolutely nervewracking for me.

[Quilford]

(I think those weren't his exact words, but please stop talking to me, because I have to work.)

We're not through until all your doubts are disappeared, Mina!

[Quilford]

asdfasdgsdf';sldgklsahafsdfj

FINE

I'll post my thoughts on other people. But I won't like it! In Team Mafia 2012 I had Captain Ajax (Trojan Horse) scum

dead-to-rights

Day 1 (MoI called my posts "BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE" and "damn strong points", proudest moment ever), I tunneled the fuck out of him (check my ISO) and nobody cared, and then he flipped scum after we lynched him Day 1. I am getting such strong deja vu and I really wish people would just see things my way for once.

[Quilford]

I don't like when people think I'm scum when I'm actually town. It makes me very antsy, as Mina put it.

[Quilford]

Overall, I like BPC's posts so far. He seems to be considering everything and trying to understand the players and the game thoroughly to form an opinion. I'd say he and Patrick are my top 2 Town reads.

Guys, how is this not ACME Generically Fake Town Read for Scum Player

[Quilford]

All my senses are screaming at me that they've never seen someone scummier than you in my life and have been doing so for almost 48 hours now so yes, I am starting to fray a little.

[Quilford]

Impatience

[Quilford]

I do. Doesn't mean I'm not impatient though

[Quilford]

Hey isn't it funny how you seem to care so much about meta except when its on your top scumread who everyone else has said never plays like this as scum

[Quilford]

@Quilford, Except you are obviously aware of your own meta, and have argued it multiple times. It's dead null.

Just because someone's aware of their own meta doesn't mean it suddenly isn't applicable, lol

[Quilford]

Who isn't aware of their own meta???

[Quilford]

That's at Alchemist. No PEdit came up.

[Quilford]

I find it hilarious that you are attempting to discuss my meta without even having read it yourself.

[Quilford]

You have literally simplified my scum meta into two words—without even looking at it—and then attempted to look at my play this game in the most convoluted way so that it fits those two words.

[Quilford]

Hold on. I'm going to have a snack and a cup of tea, then I'll talk about non-Alchemist players, and then we can drop the whole 'omg Quils only focusing on Alchemist' schtick

[Quilford]

Right.

Mina is definitely my strongest townread. Early on, she noticed that BPC, despite having made a couple of fairly incisive points (I particularly liked the olive branch comment in #20 and the point about Mara's post being the type to draw attention to itself in #56), wasn't actually drawing any conclusions from them. In fact some of what he was saying had a kind of 'defusing' effect: all of his points in posts #56, #71 and #72, for example, kind of counterweight any scumpoints with townpoints. The points taken individually aren't bad—sometimes things just are alignment-inconclusive!—but because they made up the bulk of what he was saying at the time, it seemed that he was just being generally wishy-washy.

Now, I didn't notice that BPC was being cumulatively pretty fence-sitty until Mina pointed it out in #74 and #79. When I read those posts by Mina and had a second look at BPC, I was kind of thrilled to notice that there was this entire angle on BPC's posting that I had completely missed. So I started to lean pretty heavily towards Mina-town from that point forward.

My read on Mina was further strengthened when she posted nearly exactly the same reads in #144 as I had in my team's PT an hour earlier. I was pretty certain then that we were on similar wavelengths, and that accordingly she was more likely to be town.

The other town thing is the frequency and naturalness of how she posts her teammates' reads in-thread and compares them with her own. I really just think that, had she drawn scum, it would not be possible for her teammates to sustain this for so long.

I would like Regfan's case on me, though, just so I can confirm it exists.

[Quilford]

just so I can confirm it exists.

And isn't terrible.

[Quilford]

HOLLA MOLLA

Hey you know how everyone seems to have that person where they are like 'muuh I can never read this person'?

You are that person for me. And I've never said anything because I have too much pride. BUT ILL TRY TO READ YOU ANYWAY but not until I talk about other people first.

[Quilford]

Everyone thinks you're pretty easy to read! Except me. ;-;

[Quilford]

Okay so there's no googly eyes moment like I had with Mina with anyone else who I think is town.

But I do like Patrick, because he was the first to bring up Alchemist. Until then I was kind of iffy about Al, because Al was asking too many questions and responding to people's thoughts rather than having any original ones of his own, but I also thought he hadn't spent a lot of time on the site (he's definitely the least experienced player here) #55 was too cheeky for newbscum, and he could just be newbtown. So I had kind of filed him under 'look into later' in my head.

But when Patrick brought up #121, I was like 'maybe I should take a closer look'. Then I realised that Al had posted

literally no reads

, almost all of his posts were part of trivial back-and-forths with people, and that he had done no digging after people's motivations of his own.

So I credit Patrick with putting me onto my first substantial scumread. I also like his meta-awareness about how Day 1 lynches tend to pan out in #311, because I find it very very relatable.

I am given slight pause by how easily he dismissed a lot of the early game in #121, and I'm unconvinced by his read on serra, but on the whole I think he's likely to be Town and at the very least isn't somewhere we should be going with today's lynch.

[Quilford]

As I've mentioned above, BBmolla is firmly in the 'AAARGH' pile because on the one hand his blend of total nonchalance and utter self-conciousness strikes me as very town (I think it reminds me of me a little). Hilariously, though, I really don't like his reads, they seem pretty shallow and surface-level (I think #246 is the

worst

reason to think Alchemist is scum, I don't see what BB is seeing at all in #183), but how detailed can you get when you're only using max 3 sentences per post?? Which is how BB tends to roll independent of alignment if I remember correctly. In conclusion, asfhasjkfhaskldjh and I want you to go further into your read on ETL please.

I lean town on ETL because I think #49 and #52 contained a neat little flash of insight ("Everyones town until I find a reason for them being scum" seems very unusual to me too), and I like her response to BBmolla in #370. However I feel like her posting has changed since her 3-day absence and it weirds me out a bit.

Marangal I am just flat-out not sure about. I really disagree with her reasons for thinking Alchemist is town and I think they are in conflict with the fundamental conceit of 'uninformed majority vs informed minority' (I really, really don't think refusing to push another wagon is something an uninformed townie would do), but she has explained them convincingly enough. I wish she would talk more about her scumreads, they don't strike me as particularly strongly-held.

[Quilford]

BPC is also null, as I've already said I didn't like his early fencesitting. I also hate hate hated when he said Mina was 'blatantly not caring about reads' in #114, it seemed like hilariously over-the-top rhetoric in the way that scum are sometimes prone to (Mina also took issue with it, which is another reason I forgot to mention why I like her for town). But aside from his 40 hr absence a little back, he has been pretty engaged.

I have no idea whatsoever about serra. Like, none. I get town vibes and scum vibes off things but it's all gut. I should probably do some meta.

[Quilford]

I was starting to waver a teeny bit on Alchemist because he actually posted some reasoning for me being scum that wasn't 'uuuuh he's not scumhunting' without any further elaboration. But no, fuck that. His reasoning for his reads is still abysmal, there's just more of it now. I think most of my worry here comes from the fact that he's actually at L-1 now. In TM2012 I started to waver on Captain Ajax when he was really close to being lynched (until he made an awful fakeclaim), and he was scum, and I'm scared I'm going to lose my nerve here too, despite Al being my biggest scumread by miles.

Gah.

[Quilford]

Anyway thanks in advance for all the townreads guys

[Quilford]

his vote on Alchemist after saying he might be newbtown, even though nothing much happened in between

What happened in between was that I actually ISO'd him, as I mentioned above.

[Quilford]

Whoops.

[Quilford]

Expect revenge

[Quilford]

[Quilford]

ya etl for probs town

[Quilford]

It could also be the sure sign of a hopeless scum player with only one partner who can't afford to fail to start a counterwagon

[Quilford]

Hey Alchemist. Can you or any of your team buddies provide some actual close analysis? You're all very good at making sweeping generalisations about what a player is saying or doing, but you constantly fail to provide any evidence in the form of a player's words and actions in specific posts.

[Quilford]

Hey Alchemist. Can you or any of your team buddies provide some actual close analysis? You're all very good at making sweeping generalisations about what a player is saying or doing, but you constantly fail to provide any evidence in the form of a player's words and actions in specific posts.

Alchemist please actually do this with one of your reads, or explain why you can't.

[Quilford]

I want some analysis from you, because I'm scumreading you, not Titus, and Titus is from memory fairly accomplished at scum and therefore better at faking scumhunting as an informed minority.

[Quilford]

Yes, I should have used 'and', not 'or'. However I am inclined to dismiss the analysis not because it's coming from your teammate but because it's coming from someone more accomplished as scum who just happens to be your teammate. It's like how you might find one player of a hydra easier to read than another.

[Quilford]

Yes it does, because I don't think you are town, and I'm the one who asked you to provide some close analysis in the first place. If Titus is good at faking close analysis as scum and you are not, obviously I want you to post the analysis.

[Quilford]

If I were scum in your place, and the guy scumreading me had the impressive think-tank of Titus, ABR, and BBT behind him, I'd probably be shitting my pants too.

I'm shitting myself laughing right now. Does that count?

[Quilford]

Mina shhhh don't disturb Al while he's shifting the goalposts.

[Quilford]

Apparently its now not that I'm not scumhunting, but that Titus thinks "Quil only provided content in response to tearing down my reasoning. She says it's not good content but general feel-good buddying."

Whatever that means

[Quilford]

You'll get my personal analysis of you. Titus is just giving the analysis on Molla.

I'm sure Molla would also prefer you analysing him.

[Quilford]

MINA I wasn't kidding when I said I wanted the Regfan case. Please post it, ta.

[Quilford]

HAHAHAH Oh my GOD guys.

Did Alchemist just post a list of summaries of posts in BBmolla's ISO without actually quoting any of BB's actual words at all? Can someone say information instead of analysis?

[Quilford]

#467 is TEXTBOOK scum and I will now officially start looking for hat recipes

[Quilford]

I don't think you even deserve regfan's case since you have no interest in my teammates' opinion.

As previously stated, I want the Regfan case just so I can confirm it exists, not because I care what it says.

[Quilford]

There are cited post numbers that you can go look up yourself. I assure you my analysis of you will have direct quotes.

whoooooosh

[Quilford]

Say I'm lynched today. I flip Town. Who do you go for next?

I'll pass, thanks.

[Quilford]

Your first sentence flatly contradicts your second and fourth quotes of me, and that is just the first hole in a very ramshackle case.

[Quilford]

You are still not scumhunting. Your case is basically you characterising the general thrust of groups of posts I have made. At no point do you actually delve into anything that resembles a detailed analysis of the language I'm using. There are no little things that ping your scumdar or gut one way or the other. Even in the posts you like there is no examination of why they feel genuine, or whether you agree with specific reads. Your entire case consists of a few applications of 'Here, Quilford does X. I do/don't like this.' That is not how town plays the game. It is how scum plays the game, because they're given everyone's alignments, so they don't have any reasoning behind why player X is alignment Y because either the mod told them or the mod told them something else and they're deliberately lying.

[Quilford]

Miiiiina every time you forget to post the Regfan case, Catbug gets angrierrrr

[Quilford]

Oh wait you posted it

[Quilford]

Ok cool, thanks for posting

[Quilford]

Hi Regfan! I look forward to our next Sydmeet (: (: (:

[Quilford]

Prod dodge. Will talk soon.

[Quilford]

What the fuck just happened?

[Quilford]

MARANGAL.

Your ENTIRE case for Alchemist being town isn't that he's SCUMHUNTING CONVINCINGLY or SOUNDING GENUINE or SHOWING LOGICAL AND COMPLEX THOUGHT PROCESSES

it's that he can't be scum because HE IS PLAYING TOO POORLY TO BE SCUM

THATS THE SHITTIEST WIFOM REASON EVER, ESPECIALLY WHEN ALCHEMIST HAS A SCUM META TOTALLING TWO GAMES, AND YOU KNOW IT

SOMEONE

HAMMER

ALCHEMIST.

[Quilford]

And Mara

Seriously.

Even if you think Alchemist is town (and I've been wavering of late, just because he's so unimaginably scummy to me that maybe my brain has just snapped somehow; he is literally the source of my strongest scumread in maybe 3 years, or even more), you can at least acknowledge that with so much of the game scumreading him to some extent, and your own reasons for him being town being so weak and wifomy, he is a fantastic lynch for today.

[Quilford]

I thought I had, but was confusing her with TheWayItEnds.

Why does she ask?

[Quilford]

her rep for good VCA and setup spec as Town

VCA is trash. Setup spec is trash, but even if you wanted to argue that, this is an Open setup. Given the quality of her case on BBmolla, which consisted purely of summaries of his posting, I'm quite comfortable not paying her any mind.

[Quilford]

Mina

[Quilford]

Hey ETL, planning on providing literally any reasoning for all the reads you just stated?

[Quilford]

Patrick being in first position makes me less inclined to think he's scum

?????????

[Quilford]

MINA

MINA HOLD ME

I'M SO UNSURE

[Quilford]

HOW DID EVERYONE GET SO SCUMMY IN THE PAST 7 PAGES

[Quilford]

IS IT THAT NOBODY'S REALLY PUTTING ANY EFFORT INTO THIS GAME BECAUSE IT'S THE SMALLEST ONE

[Quilford]

Where did the BBmolla read come from?

Why did you think Alchemist was town from his early posts

Okay wait hold up what the fuck

[Quilford]

Oh that was serra you're referring to the early posts of.

Okay. Where did the BBmolla read come from?

Why would Patrick being first on the wagon have any bearing on his alignment?

What are your team's reasons for literally any of the reads you've said they hold?

[Quilford]

I had the opposite impression--since tmost people look really, really town now? I still think scum are in {Alchemist, serra, ETL, BPC} (and ETL and BPC have a few town notes). I'm just trying to pin down a reason to strongly townread ONE of them.

But *holds you*

I have tiny doubts blooming about BBmolla and Patrick too ;-;

[Quilford]

I need Quilford

Quilford come

please

I'm here bb

please do something super town

please please please

can you update me on your Alchemist read?

[Quilford]

w/ reasons

[Quilford]

Mina you've played with Patrick before yeah?

What convinces you he's town?

[Quilford]

The fake hammer and subsequent posts from him about it were pretty damn town.

Okay sure, but why? What makes you so sure it wasn't a scum fake hammer? Just give me a few reasons why the fake hammer was town. I want to believe.

Why would Patrick being first on the wagon have any bearing on his alignment?

It's a persistent wagon. It's been on the entire fucking day. You think a partner is going to vote park on their buddy ... the whole fucking day.. when there are and have been other viable options at other points in the game? I don't think so. I just don't think so. Explain why you think it has no bearing.

Okay.

(1) you've changed your wording. Originally you said it was the fact that Patrick was first on the wagon that made him less likely to be scum. Now it's not that he's been first on the wagon, but the fact that he's been on the wagon for a very long time. My vote has been on Alchemist a mere 6 hours less than Patrick's. Does that make me less likely to be scum?

(2) You said "if alch were lynched and flipped town" you would look at me and Serra as opposed to Patrick. But your words above suggest that Patrick is less likely to be scum in the case of an Alchemist scum flip ("partner is going to voe park on their buddy"),

not

in the case of an Alchemist town flip. Reconcile this disparity.

[Quilford]

...

Mina do you understand the objections I'm raising in the second half of #743?

[Quilford]

I don't even understand what you are misunderstanding here. Patrick is first on the wagon. I'm literally looking just at the damn wagon. The vote count from Zor's ISO. I even said so, and fucking quoted it. These are not different things. I don't think a buddy would be the first to vote their partner and stay on it to near lynch like that. What the fuck is your misunderstanding? Where is the "disparity"?

I'm not misunderstanding anything. Read #743 again.

[Quilford]

Mina come here and tell me I'm making sense in #743

[Quilford]

UNVOTE:

To prevent any frustration-related hammers.

This does not give the Alchemist wagon permission to fall apart. Don't do that.

[Quilford]

ETL I have no plans for voting you right now. What I want is for you to reword #755 so it actually makes grammatical sense and is actually comprehensible. You have shown you are capable of forming complete sentences in #756 so go back and try again in #755. Thanks.

[Quilford]

How the fuck are they separate thoughts if you connect them by saying 'So if'?

Jesus christ.

[Quilford]

How the fuck are they separate thoughts if you connect them by saying 'So if'?

Jesus christ.

because i dont spend my time wondering how my fucking posts sound! i just fucking post what i think.

Yeah? Well it would be nice if you could inject a little bit of clarity so that others can make sense of your thoughts.

[Quilford]

Quilford, I agree with ETL that this has nothing to do with her alignment anymore.

I agree with you. But ETL, don't get pissy with me. Mina noticed the ambiguity as well, so you were not being crystal clear. Try not posting things that are potentially contradictory, and I won't get distracted by them.

[Quilford]

Right.

I need certainty here before anything else.

VOTE: Alchemist21

[Quilford]

It wasn't misunderstanding of your posts. You contradicted yourself, and now you're complaining about me getting suspicious because you don't think you should have to check your posts to see if they make sense before you post them

[Quilford]

How the fuck are they separate thoughts if you connect them by saying 'So if'?

Jesus christ.

It wasn't misunderstanding of your posts. You contradicted yourself, and now you're complaining about me getting suspicious because you don't think you should have to check your posts to see if they make sense before you post them

you think i should check my posts before i post them....?

and it WAS your misunderstanding. it was not a contradiction. this is how it looks to me.

It IS a contradiction.

You say they're SEPARATE thoughts, but they're connected with the words "so if", which necessarily mean that ONE IS A CONDITION OF THE OTHER.

[Quilford]

THE SO IF WAS TO A PREVIOUS SENTENCE

WHICH ONE?

[Quilford]

like.. it;s a fucking precedint statement, not conclusionary.

SEMANTICS

It is semantics. But you know what? That's how you fucking catch scum who are tripping up on their own words. You can go look at everything I said to Alchemist and you will see that my #1 tactic for catching scum is to delve into the ACTUAL WORDS they're using and NAIL DOWN what they mean when they say things, because that's the best path to clearly see when they're faking their scumhunting. So don't get irritated with me. I'm not fucking deliberately misunderstanding your posts. Jesus christ.

[Quilford]

Mina saw the ambiguity, not just me. Therefore it was there.

Enjoy the last word in this argument. Honestly.

[Quilford]

UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH

ZORASTER

[Quilford]

Oh yes. I do have an important question.

Who was here and watching in real time as the BBmolla fakehammer went down?

[Quilford]

Bahhhhh I really still don't like BB's reasoning for voting Al. But Reck thinks he's town. And I'm willing to believe that maybe the fakehammer played out really town in real time. It just looks so obviously fake to me in real time (wasn't there a vote count on the same page?) that I'm unwilling to really trust anything that came of it.

Anyway, we obviously need content from serra and BPC.

[Quilford]

No, that's fine.

@Zor: deadline?

[Quilford]

Tell them they're dreaming.

I have laryngitis guys! Ain't that just swell

[Quilford]

The upside is that I basically have the week off to sit at home and do nothing, so I can unfuck my reads.

[Quilford]

Shos said quil unvoted to prevent frustration hammers and hammered later on the same page.

Yes. I wanted a response from ETL, she was threatening to hammer out of frustration, so I unvoted. Then she answered me, so I hammered (because Mina had voted in the meantime).

[Quilford]

BB, does shos find Mina scummy?
Mina, I'll get to your questions in a bit

[Quilford]

Quilford, re: this, do you believe ETL's explanation for where she put Patrick in her list was scummy?

Sorry, I don't understand. What does #784 have to do with ETL's explanation for where she put Patrick in her list? (And what list is this again?)

And can you explain why you were having niggles on Molla and Patrick (but not me) here?

I was looking at my Alchemist wagonmates. I had already said that I really wasn't convinced by BBmolla's reasoning for voting Alchemist. And I was suspicious that Patrick had stopped explaining the reasons for his read on Alchemist, even as I found more things that looked scummy in Al's posting. Yes I know he's scum, but the 'case' he posted on me and the one Titus wrote on Molla are just terrible PBPA post summaries. The only thing he did was take a look at Al's meta. Like I said though, just niggles.

[Quilford]

Apart from that, any chump could yell about his posts and call them bad.

Yes, it wouldn't make them town though. I was just expecting perhaps a greater level of incisiveness from you. Considering you admitted that if you 'only had the second half of his iso he wouldn't be that suspicious', I thought that perhaps you would be looking for particularly substantive reasons by which to convince yourself to stay on the wagon.

[Quilford]

I don't particularly like the way Espy switches from talking directly to people to talking in general at everyone here.

Why don't you like it?

[Quilford]

Given that Mina had just accused BPC of 'posting a lot like scum', what more support do you envision ETL needing as scum before beginning to push BPC?

[Quilford]

Quilford, has your team contributed any thoughts this game beyond Reck saying BBmolla is obvtown?

No haha we are so lazy

I think I'm the most contributory of us 4, and that's not saying much

[Quilford]

Not a super big fan of the Johnny lynch, especially not until BPC gives us something.

[Quilford]

They aren't reading the game, but then Reck popped in and said that BBmolla was town and nothing else? When was this?

I asked Reck to look at molla overnight.

[Quilford]

My vote ain't anywhere.

I am in full on waiting mode, yeah. I want stuff from BPC.

[Quilford]

Not a super big fan of the Johnny lynch, especially not until BPC gives us something.

Can you explain why (to the first part, not the last part)?

I like his assertive responses to my questions.

[Quilford]

I might be just talking to talk. But Quilford:

1) Can you elaborate on "assertive responses to your question"? Not sure I see what you mean.

He was very forthright in response to me in #826 and #828. Strikes me as town. I think scum would've been more weaselly.

2) Re: the thing about semantics which I can't quote on my phone, my point was at the moment you MADE that post, did you find ETL scummy for the semantics disagreement there? If so, why? Or were you just rhapsodizing on scumhunting techniques? Zar found that post noteworthy, but I don't want to say why until you answer.

>__> When you say 'that post', which one are you referring to? #784? If so, no, I was explaining my scumhunting approach. ETL thought I was deliberately misunderstanding her when I wasn't, I chase ambiguities in what people say because I think scum often like to hide behind them.

And I'm willing to believe that maybe the fakehammer played out really town in real time. It just looks so obviously fake to me in real time (wasn't there a vote count on the same page?) that I'm unwilling to really trust anything that came of it.

It was fairly obvious to anyone paying attention that it was fake, but why are you unwilling to trust anything that came after it? Most of that clusterfuckery isn't even about the fake hammer anymore.

Because when fakehammers are obviously fake, it becomes much harder to tell whether disbelieving reactions are genuine or not? So there's not much point to them? I don't understand.

Shos said quil unvoted to prevent frustration hammers and hammered later on the same page.

Yes. I wanted a response from ETL, she was threatening to hammer out of frustration, so I unvoted. Then she answered me, so I hammered (because Mina had voted in the meantime).

I feel like you skipped part of BB's issue here. There was time left in the day and players had said they'd like to make catch-up posts. Why not wait for that at all?

I really wanted an Alchemist lynch. I know, selfish.

6) Quilford, why did Reck only comment on BBmolla, anyway? I'd have thought he'd naturally develop reads on non-Molla players from reading closely enough to come to a conclusion about anyone's alignment. (Sorry to bombard you with questions, but you need to be strongly town before I can switch back into overconfident mode.)

Because I asked him to specifically comment on BBmolla, as I mentioned in #873, because as I've said previously I struggle to read him?

Reck has not being reading this game closely, or if he has he sure hasn't been saying anything about it. When I asked him to take a look at BBmolla, I'm pretty sure it was the first time he'd looked at anyone in the game since RVS ended.

[Quilford]

You know what's funny?

I dislike JF's catchup because it had like no questions.
But I also dislike BPC's catchup because it was nothing but questions.

[Quilford]

hay meenz :3

[Quilford]

Shos said quil unvoted to prevent frustration hammers and hammered later on the same page.

Yes. I wanted a response from ETL, she was threatening to hammer out of frustration, so I unvoted. Then she answered me, so I hammered (because Mina had voted in the meantime).

I feel like you skipped part of BB's issue here. There was time left in the day and players had said they'd like to make catch-up posts. Why not wait for that at all?

BPC, I'm assuming you're referring to yourself (and maybe serra) when you say 'players' in the quote above. I can't find anyone else who mentioned intending to make a catch-up post or something similar.

So I reckon you're being disingenous, because at the end of the day you said

I'm fine with the hammer, I can respond to things tomorrow, I don't think anything I had to say was super pertinent.

And to Mina, who thought she had hammered, you said

I did want to catch up, but im probs busy until tonight or tomorrow and won't be able to get a proper catch up in, so it's okay. This is also about my rate of play in any game :P

So it appears you were okay with the hammer despite not being caught-up and despite having wanted to make a catch up post. But now you're going after me for not having waited?

VOTE: BPC
asplain pls

[Quilford]

Shos said quil unvoted to prevent frustration hammers and hammered later on the same page.

Yes. I wanted a response from ETL, she was threatening to hammer out of frustration, so I unvoted. Then she answered me, so I hammered (because Mina had voted in the meantime).

I feel like you skipped part of BB's issue here. There was time left in the day and players had said they'd like to make catch-up posts. Why not wait for that at all?

BPC, I'm assuming you're referring to yourself (and maybe serra) when you say 'players' in the quote above. I can't find anyone else who mentioned intending to make a catch-up post or something similar.

So I reckon you're being disingenous, because at the end of the day you said

I'm fine with the hammer, I can respond to things tomorrow, I don't think anything I had to say was super pertinent.

And to Mina, who thought she had hammered, you said

I did want to catch up, but im probs busy until tonight or tomorrow and won't be able to get a proper catch up in, so it's okay. This is also about my rate of play in any game :P

So it appears you were okay with the hammer despite not being caught-up and despite having wanted to make a catch up post. But now you're going after me for not having waited?

VOTE: BPC
asplain pls

I didn't like your response to BBmolla's stuff. I wanted to see more from you on the matter.

As for me not really giving a shit about the hammer yesterday, I didn't, that doesn't mean there might be something to pick up from other player's action around it.

BPC, this is a massive dodge and we both know it. You asked me why I hammered, saying that "players had said they'd like to make catch-up posts" and that you want to know why I didn't wait for them. I've pointed out that you and serra were the only two people who had indicated that they wanted to make such a post, that at the time you were fine with the hammer, you said that what you were going to say probably wasn't super pertinent and could wait for Day 2. You didn't express any concern for serrapaladin at the time. Your original question was therefore disingenuous and hypocritical and seems like an opportunistic scum thing to post.

[Quilford]

Because when fakehammers are obviously fake, it becomes much harder to tell whether disbelieving reactions are genuine or not? So there's not much point to them? I don't understand.

Its obvious that a ton of stuff happened at the end of the day that had nothing to do with the fakehammer

Yeah... the obvious fakeness of the fakehammer obviously only means that the reactions to the fakehammer should be discarded, not the reactions to Mara's claim or anything else.

I see now that you have gotten confused when I said "I'm unwilling to really trust anything that came of [the fakehammer]" earlier. You misread it as "anything that came after [the fakehammer]".

- most of it stemmed from Mara's ridiculous claim. Do you think bbmolla looks like scum in that episode?

No. But I don't get a strong townread off it either.

[Quilford]

Johnny for town imo

[Quilford]

Really? I liked #953.

[Quilford]

Omg you guys SleepyKrew is reading through this game

[Quilford]

If we're going to mislynch me, I'd rather it be today than in LYLO. tia

[Quilford]

Hey Patrick, 732 came at a time when I was reassessing the Alchemist wagon and didn't like BBmolla's reasons for being on it at all, and didn't like the fact that you hadn't talked about your read on Alchemist in depth for some time. Literally that entire page is me beginning to doubt the Al wagon.

[Quilford]

Also, therein lies the problem with BBmolla, which is that I get really suspicious of people who can't see him as anything but town because of the fakehammer:

Why not look at his actual fucking scumhunting, which is the number one alignment indicative thing in the entirety of mafia? Because it hasn't been very fucking good. Go back, look at his reasons for scumreading Alchemist, and tell me they even begin to approach good.

I have found various aspects of BB's play town, which is why I have him at null. But people (Patrick, ETL) who are just saying blah blah emotion blah fakehammer need to look a little bit closer, for Christ's sake. Your lack of nuance in your read on him really concerns me, which is precisely not what I want, because it's destroying my previously held townreads on you and, I think, making me think Johnny is townier than he actually is.

[Quilford]

like forcing me to reinforce a read beyond what it is and then acting like having a read in that manner after doing so is some kind of tell is really something else.

I don't care. The fact that BBmolla's scumhunting isn't factoring into your read is really fucking weird.

[Quilford]

;-; bee pee sea

[Quilford]

But luckily, there's a period of time where N is V/LA and Quilford is locked out of the hydra.

Noooooooooo don't remind meeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Quilford]

Omg you linked it! MINAAAAA

[Quilford]

I read that ISO and I think I have polio now

[Quilford]

By a long long way, my best scum game on site was in Equinox's game Mafia on the Metro. Looking back, I still have no idea how I did it, but I think 90% of it was that I wasn't scum with anyone I was terrified of letting down, and there was nobody in the game who could read me like a book. (Well, until I fell apart at the end.)

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=51559

In the interests of full disclosure I was nominated for a Scummy for my scumgame with DGB and someone else in Otters vs Tigers vs Sharks Mafia (modded by Amrun I think?) but that was ages ago, and the game was (ironically) eaten by tigers (it was recovered and put in a zip file somewhere), however my play there was really nothing special and I would have been lynched if anyone was smart enough to realise all the people who suspected me were being systematically eradicated via nightkill.

[Quilford]

I just noticed BB and I share all the same colours in our avatars.

o_____O

[Quilford]

Where's your head Quil?

Oh yeah, I'm not answering this right now (or any other questions) because it's 5:50 am and I only woke up coz I needed to pee.

GOODNIGHT

[Quilford]

(I just realized I kind of want to townread Quilford for being adorable.)

yeah this is a giant part of my worry

*blush*

im so cute

[Quilford]

go to bed

:3 bossy!

[Quilford]

Quil name the scumteam, go!

BPC and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and

[Quilford]

idk

[Quilford]

Quil name the scumteam, go!

@Patrick: I don't think the emotion should be dismissed—it's a big part of my read on him—but I think his poor scumhunting should heavily weigh against it, and I don't understand how it doesn't for you. His read on Alchemist was very poorly reasoned, as I've gone into before.

CES, ya face amuses me

[Quilford]

ETL, do you usually employ VCA in your games?

[Quilford]

ETL, do you usually employ VCA in your games?

yes... doesn't everyone?

no, because generally people realise it's shite almost immediately????

[Quilford]

Mina i think she's town but wrong about many things.

[Quilford]

Usually I get suspicious of people after they're wrong about enough things over a long period of time, but I think ETL is town

[Quilford]

CES sums it up rather niftily here

VCA has always just been the fallacious reasoning of taking a reasonable position such as "there is an average amount of scum on this wagon", combining that with information from the flips, then resolutely ignore the fact that this new information changes how reasonable your original position and pretend it's still likely to be true. E.g. if you're playing a newbie and everybody on a certain wagon but player A flipped town, then player A isn't 69% likely to be scum; the fact that everybody else flipped town is very strong evidence in favour of the fact that that wagon might've actually been all town.

so never again, please? thanks.

[Quilford]

well ok i'm being too harsh. vca is very infrequently useful, it's just that your vca post was so bad i was wondering if you were scum

[Quilford]

Ok so then Quil unvoted because he thought I would hammer... not sure if that was for show or what.

Intent to hammer

Seriously, what the fucking fuck.

[Quilford]

So Mina voted to put him back at L-1, and quil then hammered. This makes me think quil/mina tbh. Kind of like.. that was kind of weird. I mean, I get the unvote, in that situation. It could come from either, but Mina voting to place him back at L-1 is weird. *note to self to go look at that bit again*

Yeah, maybe if you did go look at that bit again, you would have found that Mina didn't actually vote to place him back at L-1, she voted to hammer (but didn't realise she was no longer the hammer vote)

And part of why I waited so long to hammer was because I thought you wanted to catch up now.

*headdesk*

[Quilford]

I reckon BPC slot is scum. His posts keep looking worse and worse in hindsight, especially his reaction to Marangal outing herself, and his suspicions of Alchemist are really poorly formed but conveniently never come under any close scrutiny because he never actually votes for Al (oh look, another reason why a wagon might stall other than both scum being on it, looollll)

[Quilford]

Why did you say "why I waited so long to hammer" then :I

[Quilford]

You are such a mooch Mina I've brought this up twice before

[Quilford]

Also, why does everyone in the game have teammates who suspect Quilford?

Its coz their teammates are bad. even urs

[Quilford]

Urrrrghhhh

[Quilford]

I want to break my phone.

I am tracker, lynch pat NOW

Alright. Mara. First, this was just not an okay move. But you've been told that 20 times by now. By focusing on your primary lynch target, you're being kinda selfish. One thing I take into any game is knowing that my reads are not end all be all, I don't think any one's can be. Some more respected than others, but anyways, by claiming this you're assuming a town read on you will automatically get your reads trusted. What you should realize is that, that's not something that's just gonna happen. There needs to be good reason for a lynch target, no matter if your alignment is known or not. I am not convinced at all by your argument on Patrick right now.

Can you please take the time and run through with me what your exact case is here? I want to understand your logic.

snoooort worst post ever

[Quilford]

dat patronising

[Quilford]

Ok, you can go look at all the other ways in which I invalidated your analysis xx

[Quilford]

(Psst try reading next time)

[Quilford]

Looooooooooool

Maybe you can read the posts that literally fucking followed it you idiot

[Quilford]

And maybe if you were paying more attention to the game instead of just having a shitfit whenever anybody criticises you, you might realise that saying I was 'leaning on your team mates to back you up' makes literally no sense

[Quilford]

Great, continue being an utterly useless player who apparently cannot do the #1 most basic thing required of you to do in Mafia and actually read and comprehend people's posts

[Quilford]

But seriously, I don't want to be mean, but it seems like you're not reading my posts or paying attention at ALL, ETL.

Why didn't you vote Mina when she said this ETL? Was it because she said she didn't want to be mean?

[Quilford]

shit lots of pages.

sorry for absence

(it has been site wide).

was overwhelmed at work

but finished deadline last night/today so I'm back. catching up.

This is being cut short due to emergency project. Will return in a few hours after the bosses leave.

Prod received. I'm here. sorry. I should have declared V/LA. I've been sick with strep and

out of work (where I do all my posting).

going back to work tomorrow.

pedit: mina... :igmeou:

i'm at work. i've been busy practically this whole game.

i'm doing the best i can but asking people to repeat shit is nothing fucking new. i'm here and you can work with me my way or not.

I'm going back to work now.

Wake the hell up Mina.

Why don't you save us all the fucking bother and just replace out?

[Quilford]

Great, continue being an utterly useless player who apparently cannot do the #1 most basic thing required of you to do in Mafia and actually read and comprehend people's posts

This is completely unproductive.

I mean, don't you think ETL is town, Quilford? Why have you been arguing with her for two pages, anyway?

I don't give a fuck. I'm so tired of her fucking approaching my posts from the laziest, most bad-faith angle imaginable and then dodging all the criticisms that she's obviously not bothering to fucking read people's posts in full before screaming a defensive response into the reply box by complaining that she's at work and is doing the best she can

Quilford, now you're just being an ass.

(And I think the confusion is that ETL thought CES was on your team, and didn't realize you were quoting an MD thread? Am I right? *peacemaker*)

Yes, that is the fucking confusion. And you know how it arose? Because ETL didn't bother to fucking read my post at all, didn't bother to click through the quote link, and didn't bother to fucking check whether CES was on my team at all (and in fact, Patrick has mentioned that CES is on HIS team before) before smashing out an angry defensive response.

[Quilford]

God, I am SO, SO done with this game. See you all in 48 hours

[Quilford]

Wait what the crap, the deadline is in 2 days?