Twin Trap (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Mina]

Quilford, now you're just being an ass.

(And I think the confusion is that ETL thought CES was on your team, and didn't realize you were quoting an MD thread? Am I right? *peacemaker*)

[Mina]

ETL:

1) Can you give the meta of you being scumread as town in a small game?
2) Did you put scum tokens into this game?

Molla, do you suspect ETL?

[Mina]

I'm here right now. Ask away.

[Mina]

Nope (I was at work and I'm lazy), but Zar and Regfan did! Regfan's online and can probably answer your question.

[Mina]

If you don't have a serious one, tell me so I can stop refreshing this thread and go to sleep. <_< And also tell me what was the point of this exercise.

[Mina]

No, I'm obviously planning to never read them at all. Is this a serious question, in which you're seriously attempting to portray this as a scumtell? (Even assuming that I hadn't got home at close to midnight.)

p-edit: actually, there's a reason I said my team asked for it. Just curious--is the little backhanded implication that it's oh-so-suspicious that I haven't read her games intentional? Because if it is, it seems like you're missing an epiphany that should be very, very obvious here.

[Mina]

Regfan reads ETL as town for her tone and attitude in

this

game right now, but not at all because of the meta. He finds her really different in those games, since her reads are better reasoned and easier to follow. There, she went through the thought process behind reads shifts, rather than doing random 180s like she does on serra.

Zar said earlier that he thought she was playing similarly to one of the games (where she was lynched--it involved Antihero somehow, and I'll get back to you on the specific game later).

[Mina]

Now what was your purpose for asking me this in real time, and what useful information were you expecting to get from that?

[Mina]

Fair enough.

I'm talking to you with Regfan-coloured glasses right now, so I'm being a bit harsh.

[Mina]

I actually was asking people about their reads on ETL for a very specific reason. If anything, I think she's had a few towntells recently (although the story of my life with ETL this game seems to be cycling between "That post is so town! She'd never fake that!" and "That post is so scum! She could have definitely faked all the town stuff earlier!"). I'm still waffling between BPC and JF right now.

[Mina]

The thing is, I'm not really comfortable with JF and BPC, the only two lynch targets with even the slightest bit of momentum behind them, being both scum, particularly given that was what happened on D1 (and given there was almost no BPC suspicion yesterday, before he became lynchable). And I can see little things in their defence. As a result, I've been spending the bulk of my time trying to be 100% sure of the players I think are town and sorting people on the fringes so I can feel better about my picture of the game.

p-edit: What was the point of that question? (Not really, but Quilford wanted answers, so...sure?)

[Mina]

That was to JF, and by the way, what do you think of ETL?

(Quilford, don't you think there'd be a very specific reason why I wouldn't say more than it's a very specific reason?)

[Mina]

I'm going to bed, but plz translate, Molla.

JF, did you see any tells from ETL that indicate towniness? Which particular tells indicate scumminess rather than just confusing you (forgive me if you've mentioned some in your catchup).

[Mina]

Oh, "they" = my teammates. They both have you as town but have grown unsure lately. (Regfan agreed with what I pointed out about blaming your read of me on Patrick, and Zar had you as really really town but lost confidence in it--he didn't like your JF unvote, I think, although it seemed to be for partnership-related reasons?). Zar didn't seem to have very much confidence, though (since he mislynched you in Westeros 107).

[Mina]

I thought this was a Quilford-style "PROVE TO ME YOUR TEAM'S READS EXIST" question, not just wanting to hear nice things about yourself!

Okay, bedtime, because I feel like I'm just posting fluff at this point, anyway.

[Mina]

Not counterclaiming. Wait for everyone to check in before we talk about alternatives.

[Mina]

Shush, wait for everyone to post first.

[Mina]

...was that in reaction to Patrick's most recent post?

(This is a serious, non-snarky question.)

Off the top of my head, it would mean ETL jumped on Patrick after Mara did as senseless distancing, knowing it was safe since people wouldn't follow her on the vote. It's...weird, but some people do shit like that as scum, and would fit with her dropping her Patrick suspicions completely today. I don't remember anything else for or against them being partners, because I wasn't looking out for it.

[Mina]

I have a sinking feeling of dread at the pit of my stomach right now.

[Mina]

Not willing to risk a counter claim right now

...

If you don't give a clear answer in your next post, we're autolynching you.

Also:

JF, did you see any tells from ETL that indicate towniness? Which particular tells indicate scumminess rather than just confusing you (forgive me if you've mentioned some in your catchup).

Can't think if any right now, too late and lazy to think about it. Ask me again tomorrow

It's tomorrow.

(I'm going back to sleep. Urghhhhh. I'll see if my sanity is restored in the morning. Quilford, which two games?)

[Mina]

Why did those links made you feel good about Patrick? I clicked on the 2014 UK link first (not knowing the other link was the Scumdon game), and skimmed thinking that was going to be the

town

game until I got to the end. AAAAAAAH! Where did I get the impression I can read Patrick? ;____________________;

(I'll put as a disclaimer that Regfan also thinks that there are differences--maybe I'm just really awful at Mafia, because I didn't notice any of the stuff he did upon my skim--and that Fenchurch's ETL read is not faked, but I'd like to hear what you come up with as well.)

Quilford, you should go to bed and set your alarm for like a few hours before the lynch. I'll be around at deadline, so we can wait for you to come back before ending it. But if Johnny doesn't clarify his claim before the deadline, we lynch Johnny. That shit won't stand.

[Mina]

Also, in more TRUST NO ONE news:

BBmolla in a similar situation as scum.

[Mina]

Apparently, it hasn't been taken.

*where I'd dramatically vote you if ETL still hadn't checked in*

There were like 3-4 people who could get away with softclaims and maybe be believed. You're not one of them. You don't get to give yourself ANY wiggle room to come out and go, "Hey, guys, I'm totally the real watcher" in LYLO.

[Mina]

Claim.

[Mina]

But why did you say the whole thing about "not willing to risk a counterclaim" in the first place as a VT?

(And Molla, I didn't WANT to lynch you today, but somehow, every post you make is worse and worse! So if you're actually town, please be readable and town, kthx.)

[Mina]

Where's your head at Mina?

That I want to cry.

And I hated JF's not-counterclaim (although he didn't go anywhere with it, so...uh), but I can't even be sure of my motives because I'm thrilled for any excuse to believe at least one of my suspicions was right.

Also, I think you have a very real chance of being scum right now.

[Mina]

I'm actually awful at Mafia, and I'm murdering Empire for dragging me into this.

[Mina]

Sorry, I was in the shower (and before that lying in bed so I wouldn't have to think of this game)!

THE TOWN IS IN GREAT HANDS.

I also need to go to my grandmother's soon. I hope my phone won't die on me, but I'll bring my charger just in case.

[Mina]

Also, I think you have a very real chance of being scum right now.

I'm not some kind of unreadable machine.

It's not just "well, HE COULD BE SCUM, NO ONE KNOWS!"

I'm aware this sounds extremely crazy, and I should probably preface this (mostly for the sake of Quilford's sanity) by saying I have the support of...um, exactly zero members of my team on this right now. Which I probably shouldn't admit since this dilutes all the pressure, but still, FUCK MY TEAMMATES, THEY SMELL BAD. But saying this out loud probably doesn't hurt. I feel as though every step of the way, you've been the voice of "let's not think about this alternate theory, let's stick to the track even when things don't perfectly fit." And your posts are very reasonable, but have been kind of milquetoast in tone today, and generally don't say anything too controversial or far from the beaten track. And I'm worried, because I recognize that in my own scum play to an extent, in that I can fake having "good" (meaning saying the same stuff other people are seeing, regardless of accuracy) reads, but often, the lynch options are all weaker players who show flashes of towniness, and I won't entertain the option of the "generic" protown player being scum. "Boy, uh, this game is really hard! Oh, well. Let's just vote this easy target anyway. I'm sure he's definitely scum!" In particular, the most recent post I asked Molla about gave me those vibes really, really strongly. The opinions on it were all pretty conventional, and I can't pin anything concrete on it, but felt almost like you were glossing over the reasoning and just going immediately back to the conventional suspects.

I'm not sure who can be Johnny's partner, because literally everyone attacks him at some point, and now he and ETL are at each other's throats way too hard now. I just feel like it's a repeat of Alch, but I have no courage to vote anyone else, so...blah. I want to crawl under a rock.

I also don't like how your opinions on BPC and on BBmolla sort of followed the crowd and you backed away from pretty strong town reads on them (e.g., it feels like you downplayed how much you liked BPC on D1 when the tide turned against him on D2--yes, I know his D2 posting was pretty scummy). The thing is, I know I personally could fake stuff like annoyance at a town player claiming tracker really easily. 311 which we loved I realized is mostly related to emotions experienced as town in

different

games. And it's not all that hard for a competent scum player to fake convincing scum reads on players everyone else suspects.

Patrick, what other reads does Fenchurch have this game?

[Mina]

I'm a sucker for etls "lynch me" stuff cause I'm in the same place

I was waiting for one person to point this out...

...except it doesn't actually make any sense coming from your position in the game, especially since you know it's a null tell for you.

Why the fuck wouldn't you care, especially if 1) your top suspect is the alternate lynch, and 2) you think Quilford has a chance of being scum, meaning lynching you loses the game?

[Mina]

I should probably concede I'm not doing the best job of focusing my attention where it's most urgently needed this game right now.

[Mina]

What time is it for you in Australia, Quilford? (I thought she'd logged in from the future and was confused.)

[Mina]

Last visited:
Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:00 pm

OHHHH.

ETL, IF YOU DON'T SHOW UP BEFORE DEADLINE, WE'RE LYNCHING YOU.

[Mina]

...so I'm basically the decider if ETL actually checks in.

FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU

[Mina]

Okay, um, I ISO'd Molla and Patrick together. They don't interact much, except for Molla raging at ETL for joining Patrick's wagon. Patrick's thought process does look really town at points of D1. So I'm only KIND of having a breakdown, not COMPLETLEY having one.

Didn't ISO ETL/Johnny, because I'm late, but Molla probably works better as a partner to serra/Johnny, except Johnny's side about attacking his play and not wanting him in LYLO feels more opportunistic scum attacking town than scumbuddy distancing. Molla and ETL seem to be at each other's throats a lot.

I haven't picked up on any of those little tells I did with BPC, sadly.

I should have left for my grandmother's over an hour ago. Fuck. So this post is kind of incoherent.

Where is Brian Skies, anyway?

Patrick, what's CES's read on Molla, given he correctly suspected him in Westeros 108? Did Fenchurch mention Quilford at all?

[Mina]

Oh, Zar thinks Molla has triggered his scumtell (well, it might be more of a Westeros scumtell). But also, the "lynch me" shtick is null--see Scummies.

(Okay, you kind of answered the Quilford question earlier.)

I think I'd vote Johnny if it weren't for ETL being MIA.

[Mina]

NEITHER DO I.

Shush, Quilford, don't spoil it for when we endgame them.

[Mina]

Heading on the metro so won't have phone access for like ten minutes. I just came to a realization about ETL's role if she's town, though.

Molla, why did you switch to her when you thought she was town?

[Mina]

I'm not sure if I should reveal it! Let's see if she checks in first.

[Mina]

Fiiiiiine.

That I don't see a watcher going, "You should lynch me! Just do it! I don't want to be a distraction in LYLO."

(Granted, I wouldn't see a tracker spontaneously claiming, either...)

[Mina]

I mean, ask CES about the game where he quickhammered a cop who'd softclaimed VT earlier, so anything's possible...

(Pretty pissed off at ETL if she's town right now even if she's a VT for not checking in, since it might be what costs us the game.)

I wish Molla didn't look so scummy right now.

Can someone who can ISO tell me whether Molla/JF or Molla/ETL is more likely?

[Mina]

Was the concern about lynching Johnny without an ETL check-in that ETL might then claim watcher tomorrow?

ETL apparently being online but not posting doesn't look good, though I'm not sure what the benefit would be as scum, given that she could use her vote to try and save herself.

Yep, and it's also bad because we need to know 100% that Brian is the watcher, and she didn't react to his claim.

[Mina]

ETL GOES BELOW MARA ON MY LIST IF SHE'S THE WATCHER. UGH

p-edit: mind meld!

[Mina]

Ugh, is there any way someone would appear online by ACCIDENT? (E.g., I'm pretty much always logged into my account, although I show up as hidden.)

[Mina]

I'm sorry. I know everyone wants to kill me right now.

[Mina]

VOTE: JohnnyFarrar

Have to go rejoin my family. I'll try to come back if I need to change, but no promises.

[Mina]

That might have been really stupid.

Argh, random thought: why does JF keep calling ETL Esp? Would scumbuddies fuck up each other's names?

[Mina]

...oh.

I thought he was confusing her with Espeonage or something.

[Mina]

And now ETL shows up on the online list. What the actual fuck

...okay, I'm a fucking moron.

Well, I'm pretty sure it's Molla-ETL if it's not JF.

[Mina]

This is what happen when I go with my gut instead of hard evidence.

[Mina]

HEY, ETL, GET IN HERE IF YOU'RE TOWN BEFORE THE THREADLOCK.

BS: ...uh, it's probably pretty middle of the road, tbh.

But my team is based on finding ETL and Molla scummy and Quil/Patrick (yep, I've regained sanity) town.

[Mina]

ETL, are you the watcher? And why weren't you here until after the lynch?

[Mina]

(In case you missed it, someone claimed watcher.)

[Mina]

So you saw Brian's claim, but didn't say anything at the time since you thought it was obvious?

[Mina]

V/LA until Saturday

I'm ridiculously swamped, and it's now become chronologically impossible to finish even 10% of what I need to do in time because I wasted my days off. So...if you see me posting in this game, please tell me to stop and

hide in my closet

do shit instead. I should probably have said V/LA for like a week, to be honest.

[Mina]

AAARGH, DON'T TEMPT ME.

[Mina]

<V/LA breaking>

However, that does tell me that his partner is definitely on the wagon.

Why can't it be BBmolla? (He was on your wagon by the end.)

Also, what will it take for me to convince you that Quilford is town? (I'm not sure it's necessary to sway you in order to win the game, but it's worth a try if it means this will be over more quickly and with fewer arguments.)

p-edit: Actually, ETL, it was the opposite: we were GOING to lynch you because you hadn't claimed (better you be lynched and flip watcher, damning Brian Skies, than you not show up and counterclaim Brian Skies and LYLO).

</V/LA breaking>

[Mina]

Do you have a strong reason for believing the scum would be on JF's wagon in particular (other than Quilford being scum)? I'd thought that was your point.

Also, can you summarize why your teammates think Quilford is scum?

p-edit: It's backwards. Once we figured out you weren't the watcher if town, we realized we could just lynch whichever of you or Johnny was scummier regardless of whether you checked in. Because even if we mislynched JF, no one would believe a counterclaim from you the next day.

[Mina]

p-edit: I suppose it could be. I'm having a hard time feeling that over quil.

Do you still have a townread on Molla?

[Mina]

...

...

...

...

...okay, sure?

VOTE: BBmolla

[Mina]

Hey Mina, is your BBmolla vote a team-sponsored thing? I'm interested to know what they're saying.

That's also where they've been leaning, but I took the initiative to vote on my own when I saw that latest stream of posting.

It's not that anyone who suspects Quilford is scum. (If you ignore his play and look solely at his interactions with JF/serra, there's a decent case for it.) It's that Molla sounded like a robot while doing it, fell into his Serious Case Maker scum meta, and has a really unnatural 180 that I don't buy and seems based on "I need a second mislynch that I can only get while ETL is alive to win." (Not to mention the similarity to Marketplace is really stretchy.)

[Mina]

(I'd be lying if I said I had no uncertainty upon a second look, though.)

[Mina]

I have no idea whatsoever about serra. Like, none. I get town vibes and scum vibes off things but it's all gut. I should probably do some meta.

Can you elaborate on the town and scum vibes you were feeling? At this point, I think serra was pretty scummy. And did you ever do the aforementioned meta?

Also, I assume your team hasn't weighed in on this game at all since your post at the beginning of D2?

[Mina]

Do you remember which games? (I mean, the one game I saw of his had a DRAMATIC difference, so.)

[Mina]

I'm mostly curious to know why they haven't weighed in again on BBmolla.

[Mina]

(Okay, I changed my mind, this game is really hard, and we're going to lose! ;___________;)

[Mina]

Mina stop judging my team's terrible attempts at collaboration and get back here

I'm working, and supposed to be V/LA!

Ask Reck what he thinks of Molla now. Why didn't you check with him earlier when he can supposedly read BBmolla?

(Sorry, Patrick!)

[Mina]

Quilford, have you been buddying me? Be honest.

[Mina]

Is BB town for a reason beyond the Quil vote, ETL?

[Mina]

Quilford, ETL is now being more protown than you.

[Mina]

I'm at work right now. I want to reread for interactions--there's stuff in Molla's recent posting that felt like scum AtEs, but a few posts that hit town notes, . Had some paranoia of Quilford for stuff I'd admittedly find scummy from a competent scum player, acknowledge that it's probably not rational (and I also thought he was obvtown for his end of D2 posts--my paranoia is also because my past self would be screaming at me for voting BBmolla now). Did some stuff, and gave up on finishing other stuff. This is just a really, really awkward time to be playing Mafia right now, since for the next three weeks, I'm working 6/7 days with no weekend off and also dealing with houseguests requiring attention.

[Mina]

Well, I'm in a state of complete paralysis right now.

ETL, something I've been thinking about: why didn't you put any scum tokens into this game? Given you seem to 1) think your scum game is the best thing on Earth, 2) much, much prefer being scum to town.

[Mina]

To be brutally honest, part of it is because your posts have been pretty bad today (combined with flashes of towniness from ETL/Molla).

[Mina]

I just reread the BBmolla exchange, and now I changed my mind on it sounding like scum flailing and I don't think anyone is scum. Help.

[Mina]

1623 and 1624 in particular make pretty solid points.

[Mina]

I'm sorry, but I'm at work right now, getting absolutely nothing done because I'm awful, and I shouldn't even be ON mafiascum. That's why all I had to say about Quilford was a one-liner. The super-short version is that it's a combination of some of the teammate interaction stuff not fully adding up, posts with ETL that felt more like a pissing contest and deliberately antagonizing her, and I guess being kind of rigid/objective rather than fluid/organic in the kinds of things he finds scummy (which is sort of what Regfan didn't like about Quilford's attack on Alchemist early D1, although last I checked he was townreading Quilford). I just can't communicate very effectively right now.

And I haven't reread D2 at all (yes, my impression then was the same, that he was REALLY obviously town--also agree that the "meandering" between JF and ETL looked very natural). I'm just kind of terrified I'm underestimating Quilford.

(The partnership stuff I mostly agree with, but I don't want to go too in-depth now so I'll wait until I've actually reread.)

[Mina]

Speaking of which:

ETL, something I've been thinking about: why didn't you put any scum tokens into this game? Given you seem to 1) think your scum game is the best thing on Earth, 2) much, much prefer being scum to town.

[Mina]

And also, they're weirdly self-contradictory?

Molla says that as scum he would've jumped straight into the next mislynch, and not sat around and twiddled his thumbs. But in fact that's

exactly what he did

, voting for me after just 30 hours in the day on a case you yourself thought was opportunistic-looking and exemplified his scum meta??

But that was D3, not the day after a mislynch. And I do think scum are less likely to fake those kinds of subtle behavioural tells in their overall pattern of behaviour. They concentrate more on making individual posts look townie.

(For Patrick's benefit, I'll say Regfan told me he thought some of JF's comments re: Molla didn't look like partners at all, and he's leaning toward ETL because of her flip-flop on serra, but I don't have more details because of timezones and my being at work or out all the time these past couple of weeks.)

[Mina]

(By which I mean, I'll elaborate when I know which posts he means.)

[Mina]

Right, me asking after whether your teammates have actually been legitimately scumhunting and trying to figure out the game instead of telling you who you should pretend they want you to push is me just trying to justify a vote on you.

I don't think they are even reading the game, man! I get snippets of "I think X" and that's about it. None of us have had the time or energy to look after each other's games. Like, it's not just this game... go look in any of the other ones. The one exception might be Anti/TTH, who are siblings, and communicate daily. But even that is a guess on my part. I haven't read any of the other games beyond ISOs to try to be less of a shmuck team mate. That's all anyone else has been able to do.

If I could quote the fucking PT, I would. But I can't. So either people believe the truth or they don't. There is literally nothing more I can do about it.

I think I don't know on you or BB. And I like trusting my team on quil because his shit looks town on the surface but my team is screaming scum. Anti/TTH/Sthar are a force to be reckoned with and I trust them implicitly.

AIOHiohsdiphzoiHIUHISPHRPIY

You trust them implicitly, and they were screaming that he's scum, and you're using them as an appeal to lynch Quilford...but they're just giving one-liner opinions that you don't value?

I've completely given on following up on inconsistent stuff like this, because I know that no matter what, I'm going to get an answer that hits the right notes of ARGH EMOTION RAGE but that makes no coherent sense, and my brain will just shut down trying to determine whether you're scum or are just one of those people who play Mafia with tarot cards

And ETL, can you claim your team's token distribution?

[Mina]

Just because I don't post everything I'm thinking doesn't mean it isn't happening. Like, there are some things I like to keep to myself so I can see how people react when they think I'm town reading them.

Give 2-3 examples of when you've done this this game. Now the cat is out of the bag.

p-edit: are you willing to claim the player/game, since that seems suboptimal? And I have no problem revealing we went three town for Empire, two town for Regfan (the optimal play for a team with Empire and Regfan on it).

Also, WTF, I MEAN, I ALSO WANT YOUR TEAM'S READS, SINCE THEY APPARENTLY ARE SUPER-CONVINCED OF QUILFORD'S GUILT. I know that you've given your own reasons for lynching Quilford. They're screaming that he's scum, but never gave a single reason for why? And have apparently been screaming that he's scum very, very quietly, since they're inactive?

[Mina]

Yes, and she also said earlier that she wouldn't do it unless Mina or Patrick or BBmolla asked for them, so...here's me confirming I also want to know they exist.

[Mina]

mina please. none of this matters. just lynch me. we have one more mislynch to spare.

You realize that if you're town, then it's a LYLO between Molla, Quilford, and me/Patrick, both of whom suspect Molla more than Quilford, right? Do you believe that what you're doing right now helps your win condition, and is your request sincere? (I guess the same question could go to BBmolla.) It's very, very tempting for me to give up on any attempt to scumhunt you and just mindlessly give you what you claim to want, just because of how frustrating it is to get five tons of self-pitying AtE in response to even the slightest softball question.

...Quilford, please don't hate me, but I only set my V/LA to end today because I'm only working an evening shift for once. And I can't write a massive post (short answer is that I might be at ETL>Molla>>>>>>you, but wanted to reread and be really sure about you and also want to see if Molla does ANYTHING AT ALL) before I reread the game for partnerships. And I can't reread the game before I update the newbie queue (which involves reviewing ICs and dealing with stuff that could take awhile). And...I edited out a long list of shit I have to do, because I don't want to rely on excuses, but...just believe me, telling me I should be posting more won't make a difference. I'm very, very conscious that I should be, and am already under a lot of stress because of mafiascum-related commitments (as well as other commitments, some of which aren't bad or are my own fault).

[Mina]

If you have quick questions before sleeping, I'm around, though. :/

[Mina]

What changed your mind on Quilford, BB?

[Mina]

I'm sure there are others, but...

help me help you, what other questions did I miss?

What changed your mind on Quilford, BB?

<_<

[Mina]

I mean this:

I think we're all town and mod is fucking with us.

Gg wp zor

The implicit message seems to be you think Quilford is also town now? You seemed pretty confident on his alignment being Mafia earlier today.

[Mina]

"my scumgame beats yours"

Uhhhhhhhh...do you see the issue with this statement?

Also, please don't spampost. Please. Please.

Please

don't spampost.

[Mina]

@MS: I read it as a scumslip ("you're going down because I'm so good at scum!"), but in retrospect, that's a bit TOO blatant.

[Mina]

Okay, that exchange was awful to read, and I don't think it helped reassure me on either MS or Quilford because of the nitpickiness (although I REALLY liked MS's entry and was on the verge of unvoting, but my burden of proof is lower for unvotes--Patrick, thoughts on MS? Why has NO ONE commented on what MS's posts say about his alignment?) Nor did ETL returning to the townish-tone phase of her posting cycle help.

MS, why are you individually scumhunting the posts of dead people? Also, why are you coincidentally townreading all the flipped town players but scumreading or nullreading the reactinons of those who haven't flipped?

Quilford, what was the point of the question prompting that response? Or the other questions you asked Metal Sonic--I'm not sure if I get the purpose behind any of them, since they seemed slightly nitpicky.

Patrick, can you summarize the zillion messages Fenchurch sent you?

(On that note, Regfan has been pestering me to post all his thoughts in the thread for a couple of days--now I have to update the newbie queue before work, so I probably can't oblige him until tonight. Given he's a lot more sane and anchored than I am, I figure paraphrasing them might be valuable to someone.)

[Mina]

Sorry, I'm late for work now, and my phone is dead! But quick answers: major reason that his thought process was a lot more consistent than I'd expect as scum (the activity and confidence I think are null tells). I started doubting this when I saw he was getting kind of nitpicky with you. But gtg, so can't really be more specific.

The questions I mean (I didn't really get where you were heading with them):

I gotta go, so leave any more questions here

I prefer asking them one by one, so I'll just leave the next one.

BBmolla—your slot!—enters the game in #60. What do you make of the reactions to his entrance?

You get a B. Not enough talking about attitude outside of the second sentence.

Next question!

Sticking with ETL and Mara, another short discussion about scum play and meta between them spans #49, #50, #52, #57, #58, #59, #66, #70 and finishes with #76.

What do you think of this discussion? Does it contain any hidden ironies?

Yep they wont be.

Up to post #32 there was a discussion going on between ETL and Mara about the merits of RVS. What do you think of ETL's attitude during this discussion?

[Mina]

Zar hasn't given input on your posts yet, MS, although I asked for it in the team Skype chat. He was pretty tunneled on BBmolla at the beginning of today, but then he and singer (who I don't think has read the entirety of my game) seemed to be leaning more on ETL-scum last I checked (before you replaced in).

And JF did something where he townread Alchemist to high heavens but called everyone else scummy, so that's why I'm looking out for that kind of behaviour.

UNVOTE: Metal Sonic, though.

p-edit: I did like Molla's replace out, too, but like I said, different burden of proof for unvotes!

[Mina]

MS, on the contrary, this page makes me feel more reassured in my Patrick read. (Ooh, I should check out

Hey, ETL, token claim. Because I don't believe in the SLIGHTEST you used five tokens on one game to make someone town.

[Mina]

*check out that ETL meta.

[Mina]

MS, short summaries of your reads on every player that isn't Quilford, go!

(Sorry, still in pop-in mode right now.)

[Mina]

METAL SONIC

SHUT UP

SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP.

I'm trying to catch up because I finally have a day off for the first time in a week, but drowning the thread in noise is not helping right now. You've made your points (admittedly, the interactions ones are valid, which has been the biggest source of my Quilford paranoia today, but I don't think Quilford is likely at all to be scum for some really genuine posting along with having a meta of playing

nothing like this

as scum--every game has a townie that happens to have bad interactions with flipped scum). Screaming them over and over again doesn't help.

[Mina]

Metal Sonic, can you ask BBmolla to tell us why he was considering ETL/Patrick at the end of D2? I'm sumarizing Regfan's thoughts, and realized I was supposed to ask that ages ago.

Also, PLEASE SHUT UP. SHUT UP. SHUT UP. SHUT UP. SHUT UP. You've generated 30 posts in the time I've been trying to write one. WE GET THE POINT.

[Mina]

There's a lot I want to say, and I'm going to ignore the 5000 Metal Sonic posts that will show up every time I try to submit this.

Okay, first order of business, summarizing team thoughts (Regfan's for Regfan's own sake, although he makes some good points I think are worth sharing, and Zar's for Metal Sonic's sake):

Regfan:

From before Metal Sonic replaced in:

-Patrick still obviously town.
-This on ETL and the following few posts he thought were distancing (tbh, I'm not sure they're more distance-y than average, so could be confirmation bias on Regfan's part).
-Doesn't buy ETL's explanation here for the serra read--he thinks it's very vague and scum-her might have decided overnight to start bussing JF on D2.
-Thinks this and don't sound at all like bussing BBmolla--Regfan doesn't think JF would put so much effort into discrediting BBmolla and trashing his townplay if they were buddies.
-Feels like JF tries to stay vague on ETL and avoid giving details about her: see this and [post=#p6806200]this.
-Doesn't like ETL's vanished scumread on Patrick, nor does he believe her reasons for not using scum tokens (I don't, either, which is why I was pushing her on it--and Patrick, token lies ARE really relevant to ETL's alignment here, given Metal Sonic did something similar in the Nightless FUCK THE FUCKING NIGHTLESS WITH A FUCKING RUSTY POKER ahem, sorry, Pavlovian reaction).
-Thinks there's a lot more from Molla that reads town (particularly on D1) than ETL (with her, it's just tone, which she can fake). And didn't
-Feels like he should have been more confident on Quilford given the effort he's put into the game, and found Quilford's town read on JF weird.

From after Metal Sonic replaced in:

-Initially thought that Metal Sonic's posts are a lot different from the Nightless--his thought process is much more transparent and easy to follow, seems to be genuinely trying to get reads, etc. Thought Patrick and Quilford are town, but not super-confident on Quil.
-Says a bunch of stuff about ETL that's hard to paraphrase, but basically, he wanted her dead. He thought the "lynch me" shtick was fake, and she was posting a lot of bullshit instead of scumhunting.
-At one point, was more confident on MS being town than Quilford, and thought him asking for Zar's read was supertown, because of the Nightless GOD FUCKING DAMN THE NIGHTLESS TO FUCKING HELL.
-Grew less sure because of his recent stuff setting up voting either ETL or Patrick in LYLO. (That's my major issue with Metal Sonic right now as well--the occasional iffy "OH, QUILFORD IS SO SO SO SO SO SO SCUM...but hmm, that's an INTERESTING point about ETL/Patrick.")

Zar

I'm just writing a paragraph here. Basically, he thinks the whole thing about Metal Sonic not replacing into a scum slot here is bullshit, and

I FULLY AGREE

. FTR, Metal Sonic loooves scum and used tokens to be scum in the Nightless AAAAAAAAAAAARGH THE NIGHTLESS THAT FUCKING AWFUL HELLSCAPE OF A GAME. And he also doesn't like how you seem to keep BoPing me, really confidently clearing me, and setting me up to be nightkilled, e.g., here. He did something similar with GreyICE/Nacho early in the AOHJIOSHEOPTHSPRPRYHSI you know the rest. Also, 1839 is null at best, so that was a weird argument. That said, he sees flashes of transparency in MS's posts. Overall, he still thinks it's ETL for all the AtE and lack of scumhunting.

[Mina]

EBWOP to fix the mangled links (previewing is for the weak!):

-Feels like JF tries to stay vague on ETL and avoid giving details about her: see this and [post=#p6806200]this[/post].

[Mina]

...

EBWOP to fix the mangled links (previewing is for the weak!):

-Feels like JF tries to stay vague on ETL and avoid giving details about her: see

this

and

this

.

Look at me, being ethical instead of using the edit button!

[Mina]

I mean, I got the feeling the problem for you was the set-up being awful, swingy and more luck than skill-dependent, virtually unwinnable despite the town being dysfunctional and you and Zar successfully fooling almost everyone until late in the game, and still somehow almost in the bag until a completely out-of-nowhere plurality lynch on you an hour before deadline because you left without hammering the guy at L-1 and FUCK THE NIGHTLESS, WE WERE SUPPOSED TO BE TOWN THERE, ANYWAY. That was also something like Empire's fifth or sixth time in a row drawing scum on mafiascum, too. FUCK THE FUCKING NIGHTLESS.

But anyway, I don't really believe your problem would be alignment-based, anyway.

Oh, Zar says I missed that 969 isn't a partnerish post.

[Mina]

Sorry, I was afk.

But that's talk for somewhere else

That wasn't breaking rules

It's not breaking rules--see zoraster's announcement:

All participants may discuss the Nightless game openly in the other games.

Speaking of which, I'm waiting to confirm something before I discuss something else from there.

[Mina]

So ETL, it's not that you don't think Quilford is scum, just that you now think Patrick is scummier? But just talk. I prefer to hear your thought process when I'm not trying to push it in a certain direction. You're being very cryptic.

(And yes, for Patrick's benefit--although given I think he's contributed roughly the same amount I have, I really don't think the condescension is fair--ETL is where I'm leaning right now. But since when do I ever have a strong sense of direction of where to push? I like doing things the slow way.)

[Mina]

I got a very, very different impression from Patrick's posts (given that I and my team basically agree with him on your exchange with Quilford). (And to specify, I meant that Patrick's contributed roughly the same amount this day phase.)

Metal Sonic, here are five Quilford ISOs from completed games, in random order (unfortunately, you have to copy and paste them into the URL bar):

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

I want you to read them individually, without cheating. Spot which (if any) are town and which (if any) are scum (obviously, by the end, you'll know, but post impressions as you go).

Also:

1) Like Patrick said, do you think both serra AND JF would be strongly townreading their buddy the entire game?
2) What do you think about this post from JF:

Didn't read the whole ISO because it's big (and was super confused because I thought he was in a hydra but figured it out) but I can see what you're getting at, Mina. Two holes I could poke in reading his current scum game from that one is the fact that it's so old and the fact that he had to reconcile with N's game. Still on the Quil town train though.

[Mina]

Omigod, this game is much more peaceful when MS is asleep. But Metal Sonic, for when you get back, did you post anything about this game in your team's PT on D1 or D2?

[Mina]

Argh, Metal Sonic gave me the answer that makes me paranoid rather than confirm himself as town.

Anyway, something I couldn't post about, but from the Nightless:

Alchemist swaps in for Albert B. Rampage.

Huh! this is allowed! I should have done that when i was crying

but it is a one-shot thing. maybe i shouldnt.


hi alchemist!! I reade you as a bit town in your game but wasnt strong enough to call molla to STOP YOUR WAGON. I was right

First, WTF WAS WRONG WITH YOU?

Second, at the time, I thought I was potentially compromised, although it didn't matter much because I wouldn't go miles near lynching BBmolla. Then after getting mod permission, I tried prompting BBmolla for his team's reads in 1016, and actually became paranoid it was a

scumtell

when he made no mention of MS's Alchemist read in his responses. And when I asked for what they said on Day 1, Molla went, Nah, I didn't need the help.

But now, Metal Sonic says:

Omigod, this game is much more peaceful when MS is asleep. But Metal Sonic, for when you get back, did you post anything about this game in your team's PT on D1 or D2?

Short stuff about "quil is scum" and a bit of "alch is town" on d1

Vague enough that it's not necessarily a contradiction, but still, Molla made it sound like his teammates said NOTHING about this game.

THAT SAID, leaving aside that rereading to find those quotes gave me some really town-sounding Molla posts, Metal Sonic's entry to this game immediately reassured me:

in day 1 i thought alchey was townish! and quilford was a skeevy scumbag. but i wasnt so caught up in the game and was busy with my own so i didnt assert myself onto molla

turns out i was right about alchey

probably the same about quil

there a lot of evidence against him


this setup DOES NOT favor bussing at all. so yea, the 2 scums will be pretty close knit tight family

[/quote]
Believe me...Metal Sonic was the opposite of consistent in the Vanilla Nightless game. It's hard to tell given I was skimming his posts and had no motivation to genuinely scumhunt him, but his reads were really all over the place, and he'd contradict himself a lot. He was good at bravado and activity and looking town through boldness, but not so good at the logical side--he scumslipped on Page One.

So I can see him potentially faking a read on this game in the Nightless to clear Molla. But the fact that he made a comment like this IN ANOTHER GAME and then followed up on it here doesn't seem like his modus operandi.

[Mina]

*Metal Sonic's

scum

modus operandi, I mean.

And I started rereading the game tonight. Only on like page eight, but MS, sorry, I'm going nowhere NEAR lynching Quilford today.

[Mina]

You're welcome.

An example of a really town Quilford post:

Or...

I'd never played with Patrick before, so I was uncertain what to make of his unemotional, straightforward play.

After I meta'd him, I saw that he didn't tend to be very emotional as either town or scum, so I was able to factor out his lack of emotion, which gave me a stronger townread on him.

Another example of a town Quilford post:
ALL THE ONES WHERE HE'S POSTING AND GETTING EMOTIONAL AND BEING TRANSPARENT, BECAUSE HE'S REALLY EASY TO READ, DAMMIT.

[Mina]

Mina whats so town about #2098? Wasn't expecting you to point to that as being a super town post

Oh, it mostly just jumped out to me because I'd been reading the you vs. Metal fight and stewing in paranoia, and that was the post that shook me out of it and made me go, "Wait, no, he's obviously NOT scum. You're being really silly, self." I'm sure there are much better examples. But even the fact you went to the trouble of looking up Patrick's meta and taking into account something as subtle as his emotional state was pretty town.

You know, I'm feeling pretty good about it being ETL right now--I'm just sort of thinking everything over to be sure and rereading the game (so far, there are a couple of minor things that don't fit--e.g., serra singling her out and calling her pretty unequivocally town, but this is fakeable). And sort of want to double-check her scum meta both for tone and for bus-happiness.

[Mina]

I got 100% on the mini test! To be fair, I knew the right answer already in two.

Okay, Metal Sonic, if you're not going to do your homework yourself, note that someone who's strongly reading Quilford as town here just read Quilford with 100% accuracy in FIVE GAMES (okay, he cheated in two, but those were the two where he felt the alignment was obvious after the fact). Don't you think that's a persuasive argument? Either Patrick is scum, making Quilford town, or Patrick is WHOA OMIGOD A SCARY GOD WITH MAGICAL QUILFORD-READING POWERS.

[Mina]

Metal Sonic.

Stop posting.

Sorry, but I've put a lot of thought into this, and I've made up my mind. Literally nothing you do will get me to vote Quilford today. It will just make me want to punch you in the face. This is extremely annoying and makes the game unpleasant.

Right now, I legitimately think Patrick is more likely to be scum than Quilford (not that there's any point in me even seriously considering him, because if Patrick is scum, he can literally win by posting nothing but emoticons for the rest of the game because you'll be a complete blind tunneling idiot and instavote Quilford in LYLO). So I really, really, really hope it's ETL, since that's probably the only way it's possible for town to win this game.

[Mina]

So I really, really, really hope it's ETL, since that's probably the only way it's possible for town to win this game.

Note that this is not an excuse at all for ETL to do nothing but randomly vote Patrick (and no longer be all self-deprecating and LYNCH ME) without any reasoning whatsoever that isn't gibberish by claiming, "Well, there's no point in me pushing him!" It's your own fault if you're town that we'd be screwed if you're not scum.

[Mina]

...he also called your slot scum D1, MS. :/

I appreciate that you have a lot of conviction in what you're arguing and are genuinely trying, and I'm sorry for not seeing eye-to-eye with you.

ETL, you know, the slightest attempt to persuade people on Patrick, even after your death, might be nice? Since it feels like you only turned on him after he argued with you.

[Mina]

You're making me feel bad. ._____.

[Mina]

Quilford, whats in your head? You must have more than just boring back and forths with ETL and now bbmolla.

Apart from what I've just mentioned on molla, my head sez:

- I wish ETL would actually be online and keeping up with the discussion consistently, instead of visiting the thread once every two days and doing a catch-up style series of posts that contain reactionary nonsense. YES i know you can't because you post from work and have RL issues, BUT it would assist so much in reading you.

- Patrick is likely town. Gaaaah. I wish I could hook up into your limbic system so I could actually get a better sense of how you feel when you're playing the game, because it doesn't really come across tonally and it's the one thing that probably stops you from being much townier in my eyes. How emotionally do you play face to face mafia? Curious but will probably have no bearing on my read haha.

- If I thought Mina could be scum, I would be suspicious of some of her recent posts about me which look like they're trying to maneuvre into a more null read on me. But I don't, lol.

- How in the sweet banana plantation do people scumread me? KILL THEM ALL.

Find me a single post in any of Quilford's scum games that sounds anywhere near as sincere and natural and as non-surface-level-scumhunting as this. Go on.

(I would really like Patrick's thoughts now. And...ETL's thoughts. *sigh* Rereading hasn't been comforting.)

[Mina]

Currently I can't think of a better place for my vote than Alchemist. I think serrapaladin comes closest, but I've changed my mind a few times on whether his last two posts are genuinely scummy or just a different perspective on some things. No other vote really appeals to me at the moment.

I am given slight pause by how easily he dismissed a lot of the early game in #121, and I'm unconvinced by his read on serra, but on the whole I think he's likely to be Town and at the very least isn't somewhere we should be going with today's lynch

I wasn't interested in trying to make hay about a bunch of stuff that struck me as null, especially when there was more something interesting to go after.

FWIW, I'm also unconvinced by my read on serra.

What did you mean by this here?

(Because I legitimately think you're a GREAT fit for a serra partner based on interactions--the first quote is an example to why.)

[Mina]

Just look at quilford' last 40 posts and tell me it is not fucking identical to quil's scum meta

YOU ARE A MORON. HIS SCUM META IS TO LURK.

I THINK PATRICK IS PROBABLY THE LAST SCUM RIGHT NOW.

IT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE 1) I'm neither brave enough nor mean enough to push him with an hour to deadline, 2) I only have phone access because I'm at work, so I can't even argue my case, 3) I have enough uncertainty about ETL not to want to vote the more "protown" player, and 4) if we mislynch today, you will instavote Quilford in LYLO because you're so far tunneled up your ass nothing I do will matter.

But I guess I can only blame myself for not rereading until now.

[Mina]

ARGH ARGH ARGH

Okay, Metal. Reread D1/D2, and note all the interactions between the serra/JF slot and Patrick. Note all the times Patrick second-slots his ppartner (including turning on his BPC read, although he's not the only one guilty of this), and the difference between how JF interacts with BBmolla/ETL (sort of subtly discrediting them and saying stuff like "I don't want them in LYLO') and saying Patrick looks fishy but then having him as his second towniest read without explanation, and then giving this as explanation (which I could see as knowing his buddy looks town). Do you legitimately think JF's only strong townread of the game was on scum?

I think Patrick is more likely to be scum than Quilford. And I'd rest easier if I knew mislynching ETL didn't mean an autoloss because I couldn't trust you.

(Admittedly, I haven't got to the end-of-day wagons.)

[Mina]

I feel sick, jesus.

Quilford, please just vote. You don't have to be the hammer. I can't sit through another hour of this.

Why do you feel sick if you're town?

[Mina]

VOTE: EspeciallyTheLies

Fine.

[Mina]

Pity I don't think he's scum anymore, because that's tempting. XD

[Mina]

I mean, that I don't think MS is scum. I don't feel ethical voting that way and dragging out the game. And doesn't that just mean it's the same ETL vs. Patrick argument tomorrow instead of today?

[Mina]

Don't hammer just this minute, though.

[Mina]

Does anyone else have thoughts on this?

[Mina]

I meant, more specific thoughts.

[Mina]

...okay, I was hoping you'd say something that sounded really town in response instead.

[Mina]

Does this exchange sound like bussing, in your opinions? Why did you never mention it in your catchup, Patrick?

[Mina]

It was more that I was hoping for a response brimming with townie passion or something.

[Mina]

That's not what I meant. I mean, his interactions with ETL? because he's arguing with her and they're getting aggressive with each other.

[Mina]

Hey, I maintain that this was very protown. You're easier to read when you're riled up!

[Mina]

Shush.

[Mina]

To clarify, I wasn't actually insincere with my suspicions, but a side goal WAS hoping you'd react in a townish way that would reassure me. I did feel better because of your reactions. Sorry for stressing you!

Quilford, we have ten minutes left. You should hammer.

[Mina]

Ninja'd!

[Mina]

*hug* to everyone.

You're all awesome, even though I spent half the game screaming at you. See you all in the postgame!

[Mina]

I chuckled.

Thanks for all sounding innocent and making the wait much more pleasant! <3 You guys should all be as Zen as me who doesn't get stressed out over Mafia games. ^_^

[Mina]

MS, Zar says to consider 1332 and Quilford's unvote if the game goes on until tomorrow, because you owe him!

[Mina]

I'm reporting zoraster to the list mods!!!

[Mina]

MS, pretty sure League of Legends is to blame for the delay and not ETL's flip.

[Mina]

Lack of ETL posting and surfeit of everyone else posting emotional reactions is an excellent sign, though (e.g., I don't see Patrick scum being unable to sleep in anticipation of the flip).

I guess that means we can continue fluff-posting!

[Mina]

I rate that 3/10 in sincerity.