Open 627: Mexican Standoff [endgame]

[acryon]

VOTE: Aneninen

For being a lying serial killer in the last game we played together.

[acryon]

VOTE: Mad King Ashnard

I bet everyone knows my reason for that.

I don't, what is it?

[acryon]

What are these numbers
Whaaaa?
Are you trying to confuse us?

Someone is trying to confuse us, and it's the guy with no avatar.

[acryon]

VOTE: Townie247

You throw out a naked vote, and it's for the person named

Townie

? Scum much?

[acryon]

VOTE: Mad King Ashnard
I bet everyone knows my reason for that.

I don't, what is it?

RadiantCowbells is in that hydra. We've been auto-RVS-ing each other whenever we meet.

Ooh in that case.
VOTE: Mad King Ashnard

[acryon]

I am VERY aggressive in TOS, and I will do so here too, because that is the only way to catch evil players off guard and lynch them quickly. Quietness is not good which is why I want people to move

Sure, aggression can be good. What's good about lynching people quickly?

He said "catch

evil players

off guard and lynch them quickly". Maybe you misread or maybe you are misrepping?

So right now I have O scum reads but the only person who I semi believe is town is Xtoxm. He voted twice without any reasoning. I don't think mafia would boldly do that in fear of putting themselves out there. I know Kuro said he's done that in the pass. I am curious to know what his alignments were those times.

I can't check unfortunately I am at work and on my phone


PS sorry for taking a while to reply, was dealing with some RL issues.

lol reverse psychology. I hope you're not giving him a town-pass for naked votes.

[acryon]

RadiantCowbells is in that hydra. We've been auto-RVS-ing each other whenever we meet.

Ooh in that case.
VOTE: Mad King Ashnard

Huh?

Was just voting RC like I've done before in RVS. Familiar faces and all.

He said "catch evil players off guard and lynch them quickly". Maybe you misread or maybe you are misrepping?

Which one is TOS?
Do they call scums "evil ones" there?

I don't know what you're even talking about. What is TOS? And what does that have to do with anything? This reads like you are playing dumb.

[acryon]

Was just voting RC like I've done before in RVS. Familiar faces and all.

Okay.

Which one is TOS?
Do they call scums "evil ones" there?

I don't know what you're even talking about. What is TOS? And what does that have to do with anything? This reads like you are playing dumb.

TOS was mentioned by KainTepes and I don't know anything about it. I had reasons for that question.

I have played mafia a lot on TOS but this one here is my first game

Ok that makes more sense. Do you think that they would need to call scum evil ones over there? Isn't it clear that evil ones means scum in that context? Do you think Persivul purposefully misrepped?

[acryon]

Maybe he should be investigated if we have that one. Although, there may be a Godfather on the scum side.

I just read this again and it reads so bad. It's such a nothing comment.

VOTE: Aneninen

I remember Eagle from a recently finished game. Plenty of players wanted to lynch him because he'd had a kind of scummy attitude.
This attitude seems just as scummy, however, different to that one.
Either he's changed his gamestyle (I think he said so) or he's scum.

I don't know what to think.

Maybe he should be investigated if we have that one. Although, there may be a Godfather on the scum side.

Perceived as scummy.

Unless you'd like to explain what my attitude is and why my attitude is "scummy?"

Would you say it's possible your playstyle comes across differently than how you want it to? And would you say you've changed your playstyle?

[acryon]

Yes, but to say someone's attitude is scummy is to say that 1. You know the core of their thoughts and the reasons they do what they did, etc. To perceive an attitude as scummy is easy and no one can tell you that you didn't see things as you say you saw them. But if he says my attitude is scummy he's saying he understands how I approach things and that I approach things like scum, and to say that is to say that he knows and understands how I approach things better than I do and that has nothing to do with how my play "comes across."

Well sure but that's one of the big parts of disseminating between town and scum--subtleties in things like attitude. Ultimately we are looking for nefarious intentions, and attitude does play a part in finding that.

[acryon]

listen here.

You.do.not.understand.my.attitude.because.if.you.did.you.would.always.know.with.100.percent.certainty.what.my.alignment.was.

You know what you PERCEIVE my attitude to be but do not dare to ever claim to know what my attitude is, bud.

lol of course. We never

know

anything in this game. You're getting a little touchy here about something that is the basis of the game we're playing.

[acryon]

Nope. Diction matters. For someone who was just talking about subtlety, you seem strangely oblivious to this. The difference between what aneninen said and what I'm saying he should have said is the difference between misrepping and sharing your opinion.

But here, just in case you weren't sure how it feels, why don't you ask someone to tell you all about what you're thinking and feeling right now and how it is or isn't a good way to think/feel. Do you like having people claim they can invade your private thoughts?

This is a game Eagle, and you're getting awkwardly defensive about something that would be upsetting outside of the game but happens all the time within it. Not sure where I implied that diction didn't matter, because it's obviously a part of what I'm talking about.

But you are wrong about something. You're implying diction is the difference between misrepresentation and sharing an opinion, and that's not right. Intent is the difference between those two. Even Town can word things poorly, but that doesn't make them scum. We're looking for scum

intent

. If you want to say someone is misrepping, that's fine, but it should be because of the perceived intent, not simply their word choice.

[acryon]

listen here.

You.do.not.understand.my.attitude.because.if.you.did.you.would.always.know.with.100.percent.certainty.what.my.alignment.was.

You know what you PERCEIVE my attitude to be but do not dare to ever claim to know what my attitude is, bud.

lol of course. We never

know

anything in this game. You're getting a little touchy here about something that is the basis of the game we're playing.

this post contradicts everything you've been arguing up to this point and agrees with me. What are you even doing? Are you defending this because you like aneninen?

Clearly not because I'm voting anen. But I also don't like what you're doing. And I'm not sure how that contradicts what I've been saying at all?

[acryon]

Wrong.

If I said "an is only posting the word pink" then it's misrepresenting him regardless of my intention. I'm not saying diction is the difference between misrepresenting and sharing an opinion, I'm saying it's the difference in THIS SCENARIO.

It contradicts because I'm saying an shouldn't say things he doesn't know. You agreed that he can't know it so unless you think he should say things he can't know, it contradicts everything you've been arguing for.

But the issue is we all understand that no one

knows

anything, so you're just being thick if you're accusing someone of on the basis that they are pretending that they do since that's the foundation of the game and it's clear that everyone knows they can't.

And even then, Anen could have been reading through the thread and saw someone post the word pink multiple times and mention "wow they are only posting the word pink" and it would be clear that the intention of his post was to say "wow they seem to be talking mostly about pink". People commonly speak in hyperbole, especially on the internet and especially in this game, so given that, it seems a little silly to accuse people of misrepresentation for something so commonplace and generally benign.

[acryon]

I'm not doing this. I'll discuss this with y'all when I get back. Go back and reread everything y'all are posting, perhaps if you knew what you were arguing you'd figure out that y'all are contradicting yourselves left and right just to get a chance to disagree with me. What you are arguing (for the most part) isn't even game relevant and honestly after reading your posts it looks like you're attacking me because you feel like attacking me and you're not even paying attention to what you're saying. So. Go back. Figure out where you messed up and I won't have to take you apart when I get back. This isn't really game relevant but it's a point I feel really strongly about and if you don't back off I will fight this.

I look forward to getting taken apart

[acryon]

I think Anenine must be good, because he tried to teach me how to play the game,

Also, I'm asking it again.
Does anyone think that I've offended Eagle? If so, when?
I only know if I found something offensive, I'm telling it instantly and I try to keep the topic as far from the in-game things as I can. Actually it's ironic, because exactly the same happened a couple of page ago.

Definitely not. I don't think I did anything personally like he was suggesting either.

[acryon]

Wat is AtE??

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... to_Emotion

A nice tip with terms around here is you can generally just Google the term + mafiscum (i.e "ate mafiascum") and the wiki page will pop up.

[acryon]

@Mod

V/LA until Monday morning CST.

[acryon]

Look. You're logically right. I'm sorry I feel a lot of pressure to come back to this. I tried to get back in the game and I'm getting stuck up on acryon a response to me and it's getting me all riled up again.

So. I'm taking a break here. I'm sorry. I'm not usually like this and I don't know why aneninen triggered me the way he did but the way acryon responded was frankly disgusting, IMO. Right now this game is ruined for me and I just want to replace out, so please ... I don't know, accept that I'm offended by different things from you and need some space so I can back off for a minute, please?

I am honestly very confused by all of this. I'm not sure how anything I said could bother someone at all outside of the game, but hopefully we can just move on from here for now.

I think KainTepes is good evidence for not allowing people to skip the newbie queue.

Dave's jump on Kain is bad.

@MOD My vote is on KainTepes

No, it's not "low hanging fruit". Yes, I do believe that scum might try to hide by "acting town". No reason to think newb scum would do that any less than experienced. The first advice you see if you look up how to play scum is to look town. What better way to do that than to tell people what town looks like (to you) and then try to look that way. What makes it an act is how the talk about being aggressive doesn't go with the actions.

But would a a newb-town understand

how

to outwork that aggressive talk in an effective manner? I'd say no.

[acryon]

Eh my interactions with KT are due to him being a newb. In other games I've spent time harping on one side of the newbscum/newbtown fence, but I think I'd rather get more information this time. No reason to be hardcore analyzing a newb player's play, especially D1, when they may not be playing the same game you are.

[acryon]

Is your scum read on them based on lurking/absence?

He quite specifically said that vote was to pressure them into hoping that he would come out and post.

I've done it before as scum, where I've delayed things by saying soon. It's one of those post words that you hope will appease the crowd and hope they forget about you.

Do you believe this is what he is doing? Your last sentence especially seems to imply so.

Oh also @EE, I just realized you said something about me being emotionally detached and that's just how I generally play the game so you shouldn't read it as either alignment.

[acryon]

No it's not. SI joined the site 3 days ago, and that is the only post he made anywhere other than a signup. Absence/Flaking isn't scummy.

Thank you for being the voice of reason on this.

[acryon]

Um. I look for scum and not scum. It's freakin binary, mate.

Right, but we decode who's scum and who's not by looking at everyone - after we look at everyone.

Eh I'm not going to agree with you here. No one has time to look over every detail of the game with a fine-tooth comb. You need to follow leads where you see them and focus on one thing at a time generally or you're not going to accomplish much.

[acryon]

Going to be honest I am having a hard time with these walls. Only have so much time to play mafia so the walling makes that difficult.

I generally am not on board with policy lynches, but if the day gets closer to the end and I still don't like any of our suspects as much, I would support a KT lynch. KT is, at best, making it harder for town to find scum by being so noisy.

[acryon]

Although EE is actually giving KT a run for his money. Both with over twice as many posts as anyone else in the game. I'm not going to discourage activity, but at the same time, you make enough noise and people lose interest because it's so difficult to find scum. It also lets scum skate by without needing to contribute much.

[acryon]

Anen inspired me to look at Almost50.

Spoiler:

Welcome 50. I owe you a not-lynching on D1. You replaced a scummy slot however, so you're going to need you to do something town.

*LOL*
You owe me nothing, mate. It's all cool. You played to your win condition on that game.

Now speaking of my slot, I don't really mind being the D1 lynch IF it should help the town win. However, I think it's a bit too early to walk down that path now.

This is a very weird thing to say. What are you talking about here?

Spoiler:

Yours is a null slot for me too. I just thought I'd start with RC (the one I played more games with than anyone else on this play list), and I was -simultaneously- going to keep an eye on Persy (too bad he decided to leave the game).

I player with you twice before I think, but still have no clue on how to read you, and I'm not sure I have enough tells on either Titus or davesaz (one finished game with each).

TBH, I didn't like either of Kain or Eagle posts much, but then I didn't want to add oil to the flames, so I steered clear for my 1st post. I will be sure to revisit both slots later on.

One thing to note: The "would newbie scum do this?" doesn't fly with me. I've seen some total noobs (playing literally their very first game) misleading the whole town and actually winning the game single handedly. Anything that is speculating what a "new player" would do is not a valid argument in my book.

Now I want Sunset to add some more stuff. Most of my town leans are based on people posting "normal" stuff, but given that nobody has yet touched on anything solid that would be the case for either alignment.

Anyway, I don't particularly find Aneninen scummy, but I did find the vote/unvote in the same post a bit intriguing. I don't mind applying some pressure there, and especially so with me currently not voting, so..

VOTE: Aneninen

Honestly, this entire post pings me. There is so much overexplaining and no real content.

Spoiler:

I like you and acryon for town but I haven't seen you seem to try to get anywhere

I would like more on this. WHY do you like Burning Crystal and/or acryon for town?
Also, when you're done catching up I would appreciate your thoughts on a couple other players (with short reasoning, if possible). I'll let you pick the said couple of players (bc I obviously don't know what you might see that I didn't and vise versa).

Suffice it to say I need more than "I like X for town & suspect Y to be scum".

These kinds of posts always give me weird feelings. There is a prodding for information, but it doesn't seem to have a real purpose other than to get EE to explain better. Again more overexplaining, especially in the 2nd and 3rd sentence.

314 was good in the beginning, but I do take issue with the the last few paragraphs, which include more overexplaining, but this time it's to show us how town he is. I think my problem is so much of these posts feel so forced, like he is trying to prove to explain everything beforehand so we can't question him.

The question on Sunset Illusions in 325 sucks. Someone doesnt post for just over 24 hours and he's suspicious?

Over and over he keeps asking for more information from people without providing really any of his own. Faux-activity.

VOTE: Almost50

[acryon]

We're getting close to deadline, we need to get a decent strength wagon going so we have time to bumrush elsewhere if needed.

I have a good number of people I'm not interested in wagoning but I can go anywhere else. More when I get to my pc.

Join me on Almost50. It feels really good to me.

[acryon]

@Titus:

I have a request. Could you please try to do a quick read of the thread and see if this could be a multi-ball with precisely KT+RC on one team and EE+Kop on the other one?

I know this contradicts my #431, but I've just remembered RC doesn't like reading up lots when he thinks he might get killed soon enough, so maybe I got it backwards ans what he really meant to say is he knows there to be another killing faction (which would most likely make him a WW)

WHAT..

This is so absurdly specific. Why in the world are you drawing these absurd conclusions this early and then asking someone else to confirm them?

[acryon]

WHAT..

This is so absurdly specific. Why in the world are you drawing these absurd conclusions this early and then asking someone else to confirm them?

Instead of asking for an explanation you could do a reread yourself with my proposed scenario in ind and see if you could come up with something that makes it unlikely.

I don't need to do that to tell you its more than unlikely. Unless you're some mafia-savant that no one told me about, in which case, why are we even playing?

[acryon]

@Anen: Sorry if I missed this, but what do you think about Almost50, specifically the comments I made regarding him?

[acryon]

@Anen: Sorry if I missed this, but what do you think about Almost50, specifically the comments I made regarding him?

Sorry, my fault, that was between my two readlist-posts and I simply forgot about it.

The 1st quote is weird, although I don't know whether it's scummy too.
The 2nd one, yes. It looks empty with a lot of words. I remember reading that. It didn't ping me that hard (I saw it was very empty) because at that point there had been so little useful content that I had too coped with forming any reads. Although, you may be right here.
As for the 3rd one, I don't exactly remember the context. Although, if Eagle is scum (which I don't believe), there might have been some coaching in that post.
The 4th one. Long wall, wall-answer. I don't get why he picked KainThraddash, Kop and you. The Titus and Mad-King reads are fence-sitty at best.
As for the 5th one, that Sunset-wagon was quite terrible. (Maybe I'm biased now, because I don't think TexCat is town.)

So, I see your point, there are concerning things, I'd add eg. his 432 too. Maybe I'm wrong about Kuroi. (An intuition because of his latest posts.) But, I'm content with my Davesaz-vote right now and now I'm waiting. I'll explain later what for.

Oh yes, 432 is just horrible.

I'll take a look at Davesaz again.

[acryon]

@Mod

V/LA until Monday morning CST.

[acryon]

The following is my stream of consciousness read-through post.

OK, I double checked to verify the result. I'm convinced you ARE a WW, but also a 3 Mafia (GF + 2Goons) would know there's no PGO.
Either way:

VOTE: Mad King Ashnard

Oh goodness...

Ok, someone please explain why we are WW hunting? I am tired and half brain dead.

~Titus

We aren't. Almost50 is almost out of his mind.

I think Almost is actually just really really bad.

I mean I know Almost is just really really bad but I think this is an instance of him being bad rather than scum.

Davesaz is scummier.

Ugh I am worried this might be the case. So many of my games have me torn on people who are just town playing very badly.

Spoiler:

This is why we should restrict fake claims to scum. How are we supposed to sort out whether this is the worst fake claim ever from a townie or a scum claim? Did you consider that you were much more likely to catch a town pr than a werewolf with this claim?

OK. It looks like most of you don't know me well enough, so I did mess it up. But since this is the case there is nothing more I could do wrong, so here it is:

The ONLY PR that could've been outed here would be the PGO themselves. I'm a Weak Bodygaurd. We thus are in scenarios 5, 10 or 12. ALL 12 scenarios have Jailers and Cops, so these would not be outed by my false claim. Furthermore, I know we don't have a Tracker, a BulletProof or a Vig.

I considered claiming a Vig, a Fruit Vendor, a BP & a PGO (note that I didn't specify whether I'm 1 or 2 shots in my clain). This was to take the SK from the picture (SK would know 1-shot PGO doesn't exist but a 2-shot may do).

Now combine the knowledge I had with my chances of survival.

My chances of dying are: 4/12 (targeting a scum randomly) + 2*1/8 (my protected target being targeted for a night kill by either faction) + 2*1/9 (me being targeted for a night kill myself).= 70 % (actually 69.444 %).

So, do I go down silently or do I go down leaving "some" pointers?? I chose the latter. If I'm only 30.56% likely to see the next day I would rather leave you guys with some better knowledge about the setup and who the more likely suspects to flip scum are.

Now lynch away if you will. I've had it with people suspecting me just because I think differently. "More likely to come from scum" is a horrible reason all in and by itself, simply because scum do NOT want or need to (a) put themselves in the spot light, and (b) do as much speculation about the setup this early. The night kills will give them what they need to know.

The spoiler above is just horrible. Any WW would just sit quietly and pretend your claim was real, knowing it wasn't. Why in the world would a WW ever call you out based on your claim not matching the setup?

At this point I am feeling bad-town for Almost and scum for Dave. His post re: not killing the bodyguard reads very bad.

[acryon]

To summarize:
Holy crap what a mess this game is for town right now.
-Almost is probably town.
-Anen is always wall-city, so I'm reluctant to agree that he is flailing.
-If Dave is actually softing, I don't like it at all. The tide was already turning away from Almost and it seemed absolutely unnecessary with the only results being him gaining towncred. Leaving alone for now, revisiting later.
-I think I like Mad King.
-Reluctantly calling EE town

for now

.
-Kop's vote on BC felt weak. Lean-scum.
-Don't like Kuroi at the moment. Agree with others that the drunk post didn't read well. I'd be on board for a lynch here but it doesn't look like there is enough interest in that.

This is the unofficial vote count (if I did it correctly)
aneninen - (2) Acryon, Burning Crystal
Mad King Ashnard - (2) Kain Tepes, Almost50
almost50 - (1) Texcat
Burning Crystal - (4) Aneninen, Kuroi, Davesaz, Kop
Kop – (1) – Chilledtea
davesaz - (1) xtoxm
Extrapolated Eagle - (1) Fire Starter
Texcat - (1) Mad King

I don’t like going Burning Crystal here. Seems like a slot that would get easier to sort out with more information/posting, and I don’t think we have the info right now to lynch.
I’d rather go with a slot like Kop, who doesn’t seem to be adding much in his posts despite having so many.

VOTE: Kop

[acryon]

@acyron, Dave was softing

before

the Almost wagon had traction. I think that's fueling a lot of people misreading Dave (especially Xtoxm). If Dave was softing PR only

after

Almost claimed BG it would be a problem as it would look like scum seeking survival. I get the suspicion thrown Dave's way but it's bad. I feel awkward defending Dave so hard because he doesn't want it. Maybe some of the push on Dave is Wifom protection, but since a good chunk of the game is scumreading me now, I can defend Dave without him being obvtown which he doesn't want and Dave being obvtown is bad. Xtoxm is making a mistake that how he feels is somehow objective when looking at only half the picture. #frustrating

I would totally vote Kurio. I know my support might not mean much given the current mentality against me. I have always felt the dynamic between him and MKA was wierd and I hate his lurking when we should be trying to throw together. I think MKA and I would both be ok with that. They have virtually no interaction and K has been following MKA like a lost puppy and obvtown reading him. Being scum in this scenario, the perfect play is to drop something a little scummy and leave. Lurk shit out. The other scum (SK or other team) would be much less likely to shoot you.

As for Kop, I am not as big a fan of a lynch there. As opportunistic as his posts are, I think it's town opportunism. People jump down my throat for being a decent human being and cooperating with people all the fucking time. I used to have an expression (if Titus is wagoned D1, she's usually town). That's frustrating as fuck about things but I cannot necessarily say the timing alone is scummy of Kop.

VOTE: Kurio

I will most likely join you in a moment on Kuro, but want to sort this first. Would you mind pointing me to Dave's softing prior to the BG claim? I don't know how but I read through and missed it still.

[acryon]

Acyron, I would rather not as Dave was softing his full role, not just being a PR generally. It would probably be more protown to lynch us than to have me out Dave's role.

~Titus

I thought maybe this was just common knowledge that I was somehow missing, but if what you said is the case, then let's not discuss that anymore.

That being said I'm sure you'll understand my unwillingness to trust your vouch for him unless I see it myself. Still fine with leaving him for today, but taking a closer look tomorrow.

[acryon]

Why would you want a softing obvious to everyone?

I've read about this softing, but missed it. I'm not wanting to draw attention to it, because that's scummy in my eyes.

I was under the impression this was common knowledge and I just missed it, since there were a lot of pages to read through.

Acyron, I would rather not as Dave was softing his full role, not just being a PR generally. It would probably be more protown to lynch us than to have me out Dave's role.

~Titus

I thought maybe this was just common knowledge that I was somehow missing, but if what you said is the case, then let's not discuss that anymore.

That being said I'm sure you'll understand my unwillingness to trust your vouch for him unless I see it myself. Still fine with leaving him for today, but taking a closer look tomorrow.

I've got ideas about the whole thing, but I'd rather not go into detail right now. If I'm thinking the same process (possibility) then other people may also be.

Also why are you continuing to talk about it if your goal is to not draw attention to it?

It's Kuroi. K-U-R-O-I. At least attempt to spell it right.

And like I said before - I'm posting a full read later. I can't now.

Few people post my name right. You just deal with it when you have a weird name. Better than being called Kuribo.

[acryon]

Two things:
1) Eagle isn't in the game anymore. You need to relax with a cup of chilled tea.
2) You're coming up with excuses now. If you had such a huge problem with my drunk post, you'd mention it at the time. No one did, except Eagle.
...and I never got that five bucks.

Eh, I've pushed someone for a drunk post that I thought felt fake in another game and it just turned into a big TvT wall-off, which I'd rather not do here. Made more sense for me to hold it until I had more to talk about re: you. Also please...the walls...

*Sigh* I keep refreshing and refreshing in hopes to find something useful, but all I see is chit-chat or wall quotes with one-liner comments. You people don't seem to agree on anything at all. No 3 players have the same #1 lynch priority, and it looks like we're bargaining with each other, yet not even close to being successful at that.

Are you part of the town or not? You have a part to play in convincing people and getting people to agree, which I haven't seen you really do, and then you expect to leave and have it just happen organically?

We're town yo.

I've only been mislynched on D1 once before. And that involved both BBT and Lilith.

Don't be the second.

It's fallacious to assert that you're not scum because you weren't scum in another game. As for the other points pointed to me, I'll get to it when work slows down later, but in short - I completely forgot to add in the votes since the last vote count. I take responsibility for that error.

Are you playing dumb here? Obviously no one would genuinely assert that, and that's certainly not what MKA is doing here.

We're town yo.

I've only been mislynched on D1 once before. And that involved both BBT and Lilith.

Don't be the second.

To be fair, anybody and everybody can use that defence. It doesn't hold water. I've been mislynched many a time, I don't use that as a defence to votes being put on me.

Are you also playing dumb? MKA clearly being snarky, not making a legitimate defense to be argued with.

[acryon]

I am

really

tempted to vote Fire Starter now. I still see his posts elsewhere on MafiaScum. I'm going to

ask the mod

to give him a prod and see if he can do something useful.

Fire Starter is not within prod range

Fire Starter has requested replacement.

Either flaking out as scum or leaving because of being uninterested in the game. Right now we can't decide which one.

And we won't decide, because it's a null.

[acryon]

Acryon, do you have an updated readlist?

I just gave what was essentially one a few posts of mine ago. I don't feel the need for a full drawn-out one at this point because it would contain a good handful of nulls which are a waste of everyone's time.

[acryon]

WELCOME FIRE STARTER...

Are you planning on doing anything this game?

If you are, here are some genuine tips:
-Stop typing in all caps, like yesterday.
-Look through the game and identify posts which seem off/disingenuous/misrepresentations and call them out.
-Ask questions of players who seem to be playing in a general fashion that seems off/disingenuous.
-Stop typing in all caps.
-Question motives and the logic being used to propagate wagons.
-Stop typing in all caps.

[acryon]

Spoiler:

Are you part of the town or not? You have a part to play in convincing people and getting people to agree, which I haven't seen you really do, and then you expect to leave and have it just happen organically?

And you will rarely ever see me doing it. I do have a problem that I'm very well aware of, and that's me not being too convincing. I'm no leader and I'm not that good in making speeches. Only when something is too obvious AND someone perceptive enough is willing to pick up the transmission and fine tune to it will I ever be getting thing my way. Otherwise I end up talking to myself.

Now in this game there are some good players with fine tuned reception, and they're more capable of broadcasting their cases and leading the town. Unfortunately, they do not share my views for now. Yes, they did receive my town vibes well (and I very much appreciate that at least), but I'm still working under the assumption there are 2 factions and that is why we don't seem to agree on a lynch.

Now let me elaborate (since I haven't been posting much and you're obviously requesting that I do present my case):

If we had town + 3 scum (+SK or w/o one) we would have had 3-4 town players agreeing on someone (be that a real scum or a bad town). The scum would've pushed on the "bad town" already and we would've got a mislynch. If the town players were agreeing on a SCUM player, we would've had 2 obvious wagons much earlier.

The fact we have our votes "jumping around" and randomely distributed leads me to believe it's bc every town player is failing to draw a connection between at least 2 players for a scum team, with the scum themselves not agreeing on a proper mislynch to push for. So, 2 scum teams wil just 2 players each makes sense for them being of minor effect in pushing wagons, while many town players suspect 2 or 3 players for scum but can't find a true bond between them bc they're likely to be suspecting 1 town + 1 of each faction, so they all a pear to be not connected (which IS true).

I hoipe what I'm saying makes "some" sense here. It does to me.

The good news though is we've got Ranger here. I already think Burning Crystal is town, and I was leaning town on Ranger's spot, so together they can figure out Mad King (whom I'm still suspicious of) and then we go from there.

OF COURSE, there is always a chance I might be wrong, but then this will be found with some flips, so -for now- I have nothing more to add and no reason to change my view on what setup we might be playing.

Eh I have a hard time with this theory since it requires a lot of assumptions. I'm been in plenty of games that weren't multiballs where the town had trouble with a consensus. Don't think it can be attributed to setup, especially since setup spec doesn't help us at all right now since we are generally concerned D1 with sketchy pushes which exist mostly outside of associations.

[acryon]

We should take our focus completely off the setup.

Let's agree on a lynch candidate, then we can discuss the possible setups up when we have flips to deal with, then we can be assured what we could possibly be dealing with.

Yes, I agree, which is the problem with Almost. Any of his pushes are essentially based in setup spec, which is very silly at this point, and has no hope of bringing people on board.

[acryon]

i think xtoxm is mafia... he has not been posting much...

Almost50 is also a bit SUSPICIOUS?? i dont mean to type in ALL CAPS but many of his posts have lots of info but they are mainly surrounding what is the setup which isnt really as important right now as catching scum... And I Think it is MORE LIKELY that SCUM would be interested in the setup more than TOWN, since scum will want to catch the POWER ROLES...

See this actually makes a good point. You still probably don't have to put any of those words in all caps, because I think it just makes you seem noisier.

[acryon]

How are YOU reading this? This post is saying, "Last time I was lynched day one, I'm town and people want to vote me today. I AM TOWN." It's simply illogical.

You

honestly

think this was a genuine statement from him? No one in the world that has played more than a single game of mafia would believe that is a logical statement, so why would you think he was genuinely proposing that?

[acryon]

How are YOU reading this? This post is saying, "Last time I was lynched day one, I'm town and people want to vote me today. I AM TOWN." It's simply illogical.

You

honestly

think this was a genuine statement from him? No one in the world that has played more than a single game of mafia would believe that is a logical statement, so why would you think he was genuinely proposing that?

Yes, especially since I'm confident that original post came from RC and not Rask.

This makes even less sense. I have played a good handful of games with RC and he has never proposed something this asinine. No one who's played more than a game would.

[acryon]

Take that vote off me.

Honestly, my acryon scumread is stronger, but I didn't see any votes on acryon and I

did

see votes on you, so yeah.

Aw come on buddy.

[acryon]

However, with her reads updated I can see who is heading up and who is moving down, and compare to my own reads. In short, I believe in Ranger's ability to hit on scum with like 70-80% precision. .

That is

very

generous.

On another note, Mad King is town. 891 feels super super town. I don't see any attempts to misrepresent at all, which is very easy to do, especially in a big post and in a game where people have said a lot of interesting things. I was torn on BC, and I would still prefer a Kuroi lynch I think, but I'd go Burning Crystal.

Consider this an intent to push to L-1. Would actually do it but I have had several games recently with quickhammers, so I'd rather not. BC should claim.

[acryon]

That is very generous.

Yes it is, the sucking-up did not go unnoticed, though he's not

that

far off to be honest. My accuracy rate in games sits comfortably in the 60% range, approximately.

It will be good to have you then if you are town

On another note, Mad King is town.

Well,

yeah

, but I feel Burning Crystal is, too.

That part I'm not as sure about. Were there certain posts of theirs that felt town to you?

I was torn on BC, and I would still prefer a Kuroi lynch I think, but I'd go Burning Crystal.

This is scum who is distancing on Kuroi without actually bussing.

Or it's town realizing that there is no traction on Kuroi and we are 2 days from deadline.

[acryon]

Let's go.

VOTE: Kuroi

[acryon]

Ugh.

UNVOTE:

[acryon]

f

My thoughts exactly.

[acryon]

Erm, call me an idiot, but what if Acryon is scum?

– He launched the whole Almost-case (414) and started pushing us to join it
– His readlist in 725 was very vague and dropped a vote for Kop – an only lean-scum read.
– He kept calling players dumb (eg. 788), which I don't think I've seen from him before. Also, spreading doubts on everything (eg. on Almost, Davesaz)
– In 897, this:

"I was torn on BC, and I would still prefer a Kuroi lynch I think, but I'd go Burning Crystal. [...] Consider this an intent to push to L-1. Would actually do it but I have had several games recently with quickhammers, so I'd rather not. BC should claim."

– That vote never arrived. Also, intent to push? Wow.
– Quickvoting Kuroi, 906 and that "ugh" as a comment with the unvote in 928. (It reminds me the classic "well that sucks" scumtell)
– Generally speaking, his ISO contains much less useful content than we would imagine.

I know it won't work and I know in the end I'll end up voting for Burning Crystal again, even if I'm not as convinced about that as I was before. But I don't think I would like to lynch TexCat (reasons provided before) and I'm definitely unwilling to lynch Kuroi Today.
I'm still leaving this post along with the vote here for later references.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Acryon

We can talk about this more later if need be, but for now just hopping on to clear up that I never called anyone dumb. I questioned players on if they were "playing dumb", because it certainly seemed impossible to view RC's post in the context that they did. Like I said there are other issues with this post for sure, but want to clear that one up right off the bat.

[acryon]

As for TexCat

, I meant this game: Zar Show (C9++)

It's strange that neither Kop, nor Acryon has mentioned it. Both of them were there.

Going on soon.

I think meta generally does more harm than good, and I don't use it. I may use it as a tiebreaker in my own reads, but other than that I try to actively work against it.

I also hate Kop's no-lynch comment and would be game for a wagon on him if we could get it going. I like it better than a Tex one for sure.

[acryon]

As for TexCat

, I meant this game: Zar Show (C9++)

It's strange that neither Kop, nor Acryon has mentioned it. Both of them were there.

Going on soon.

I think meta generally does more harm than good, and I don't use it. I may use it as a tiebreaker in my own reads, but other than that I try to actively work against it.

I also hate Kop's no-lynch comment and would be game for a wagon on him if we could get it going. I like it better than a Tex one for sure.

Very well. I don't see the big problem with the whole point of not wanting scum to get more PR/VT role claims. Early day, yes, late day, no.

Obviously we never want to out our PR's, but we have that same problem every day of the game. It doesn't go away if we no-lynch. All that does is give us less information as well as eliminates the potential use of a no-lynch later in the game strategically if town gets the option.

[acryon]

Y'know. I'm just looking for today to end.

VOTE: Texcat

Well this isn't just about what you're looking for...

[acryon]

My vote remains on Mad King, but my strongest scum read is still Almost50. You are correct, I have not pushed very much. Other than Almost, I am not very confident in my reads.

i dont feel good about this lynch anymore...... this post looks town......

UNVOTE: texcat

Too late KT.

[acryon]

It looks like grandstanding. He only unvoted after the hammer and being told it's hammer.

P-edit: KT not Kurio

It's possible he doesn't understand given his stated lack of familiarity with MS rules? But your note is worth considering.

I'm ready to receive the flak I am, but we're up against deadline and we've gone around and around. This day needs to end.

We had like a full a day and clearly plenty of active people that could hammer later.

[acryon]

I can withdraw as long as MOD hasnt posted it is not too late, texcat post please

That is incorrect. We are now in a point in the game called "Twilight". The time in between a hammer and mod-confirmation/day's end.

[acryon]

It looks like grandstanding. He only unvoted after the hammer and being told it's hammer.

P-edit: KT not Kurio

It's possible he doesn't understand given his stated lack of familiarity with MS rules? But your note is worth considering.

I'm ready to receive the flak I am, but we're up against deadline and we've gone around and around. This day needs to end.

We had like a full a day and clearly plenty of active people that could hammer later.

Last time I let something go like that, the slot turned out tobe scum.

Right, which is why I'm inclined to think it's unfamiliarity, but I'm not ruling out your comment.

[acryon]

I DONT UNDERSTAND WHY IS IT TOO LATE,, MOD HAVENT POSTED???

From the wiki :

A hammer is a vote on someone which results in the majority needed to lynch them.

Once the hammer vote is placed, the game moves into Twilight until the mod posts the death scene.

The player who has been hammered is considered beyond salvation as of the moment the hammering vote has been placed

;

barring the influence of a role like a Governor nothing will stop them from getting lynched. Many mods allow hammered players to post in Twilight but some do not.

[acryon]

Almost50 - You have some explaining to do.

[acryon]

VOTE: Acryon

Mobilepost.

I hate doing this but... what did I tell you about TexCat?

What is your point? I didn't even vote for TexCat.

[acryon]

So if Almost50 was telling the truth about being a weak bodyguard, then I'm assuming he won't defend a PR who claimed.

It's a case of who did he go for? Because then if he is telling the truth, then that would mean they are town, and the person who he BG, could clarify some truth to it.

(I didn't say or will think they are confirmed town because scum could easily form a partnership based on this).

Why would he not defend a PR who claimed? If he is actually town, now he will just die tonight unless yet another PR comes out that he can protect, and neither of the two PRs will have had any utility.

[acryon]

OH, you mean bc I didn't protect Kuroi. OK.

For one thing, I wasn't sure enough he was a Jailer, and he was suspected by both Mas King & Ranger (check their reads). For another thing; I had someone else to protect as they would produce a more solid result. I protected davesaz.

You thought dave was most likely to get NK'd?

[acryon]

So if Almost50 was telling the truth about being a weak bodyguard, then I'm assuming he won't defend a PR who claimed.

It's a case of who did he go for? Because then if he is telling the truth, then that would mean they are town, and the person who he BG, could clarify some truth to it.

(I didn't say or will think they are confirmed town because scum could easily form a partnership based on this).

Why would he not defend a PR who claimed? If he is actually town, now he will just die tonight unless yet another PR comes out that he can protect, and neither of the two PRs will have had any utility.

I could be reading the whole role wrong, but if he bodyguard someone who is likely to be killed by scum, wouldn't that mean both of them dies? Similar to the hider role sort of?

No, because otherwise his role would literally do nothing. He dies if the person he targets is scum, and he also dies if the person he targets is town and is targeted (but that person then lives)

[acryon]

You thought dave was most likely to get NK'd?

Yes. He soft-claimed a PR, and I read him as town with more certainty, and now I KNOW he is town regardless of being a PR or not.

At least we know Davesaz is town if Almost is really a Bodyguard

This is true, and I am begrudgingly accepting the latter at this point.

[acryon]

You thought dave was most likely to get NK'd?

Yes. He soft-claimed a PR, and I read him as town with more certainty, and now I KNOW he is town regardless of being a PR or not.

At least we know Davesaz is town if Almost is really a Bodyguard

This is true, and I am begrudgingly accepting the latter at this point.

It's likely true, but not 100% true.

Scum Dave team role blocks almost creates a false positive. That would be setups 5 and 12. I think Dave is obvtown but Almost town doesn't confirm Dave town.

I didn't think about this scenario, but you're right. And that's actually a fairly likely scenario.

[acryon]

Who do you think is scum Acryon?

I'm fairly lost at the moment if I'm being honest, but if I had to pick, I would choose Kop, Anen, or KT.

Kop for bad votes, as well as having a lot of empty content.

Anen for comments like [post[93[/post]. That post still pings me quite hard, as it both says nothing for town, as well as goads potential PRs into discussing things they probably shouldn't. I think he is great at looking like he is doing great work and being diplomatic to get him townreads, but I think it may be an act this game.

KT is my wildcard choice. Seems like there's always one person skating by, but never really producing. Consider it a FoS so I don't just give him a pass, but it seems unlikely I vote for him today.

[acryon]

Shoot, 93 in previous post.

[acryon]

How does 93 goad PRs?

It does not goad PR's into blatantly outing themselves, but it needlessly and uselessly discusses the setup which could lead PRs, especially inexperienced ones, to mention things that might make it easier to get who they are. The lines literally have no positive function, while there is chance for negatives.

[acryon]

How does 93 goad PRs?

It does not goad PR's into blatantly outing themselves, but it needlessly and uselessly discusses the setup which could lead PRs, especially inexperienced ones, to mention things that might make it easier to get who they are. The lines literally have no positive function, while there is chance for negatives.

But if Anen has the influence, he could easily direct PR's to Eagle based on his advice, by them just listening to it without discussing it not to out themselves, but if he knows there is a chance they are going to Eagle, it keeps them from potential team mates?

This is also very true.

[acryon]

There's a good question.
If we assume two scum teams, where's the other Nightkill?

And why would we assume two scumteams? This seems like a dangerous road to go down with no reason to believe in WW's at this point.

[acryon]

@Kop, you scum? A jailer suspicious of Almost50 still would likely not jail him. A weak bodyguard is a self resolving problem. Either Almost outs who he jailed every night and is role blocked constantly or he gives information by his survival.

@Aneninen, why are you wanting to assume two scumteams?

This is the kind of post that pings me hard with Anen. No reason to assume two scum-teams. The only real motivation for doing so would be as A) Mafia trying to lead town down a generally bad path or B) Mafia/WW trying to lead town to the other faction.

VOTE: Aneninen

[acryon]

2 kills =/= 2 teams. There's still the possibility of a mafia + Sk (scenario 10). The other kills could've been blocked in scenario 12 or stopped by the JK in all 3 scenarios. There's also a chance the SK did a no NK gambit. I say we consider all possibilities, even if we do lean towards favouring one scenario over the others.

Considering any of these is stupid. There is no reason to overthink things so much. Let's just play it straight.

[acryon]

Also makes me wonder why Aninen's wagon didn't take off yesterday though.

I think this has to do with that ability to make cases that appear town that I mentioned.

[acryon]

VOTE: Burning Crystal

What's up Mad King?

[acryon]

Also FWIW the back and forth between Anen and BC here looks like SvS. I'm still far more certain on Anen-scum and that needs to be pursued first 100%, but I think it's fairly likely both are.

[acryon]

And oh, that "what's up"... trying hard to out the Cop, aren't you?

More like asking him why he is voting Burning Crystal.

Ranger, why Acryon?

Because acryon is being opportunistic-as-hell, pursuing the easiest, most convenient, unoriginal stances. I see little to no original thought, just pressuring the latest fad.

How is being the first person to start the wagon on someone who is fairly widely town-read opportunistic?

Btw, I could've also gone for KT except they're being voted by chilled themselves. I need REASONS to believe someone is town/scum, and if I don't get any then I most certainly will follow my own gut/reasoning.

They won't be coming soon, all Aneninen has done is quotewall to make it look like he's more active and involved than he really is.
I can't believe people are following his crappy votes with even worse votes and none of it seems to deserve any attention or notice whatsoever?

Naked votes don't fly outside of RVS, guys, so why don't you try doing something original instead of following scum around like a bunch of brain-dead pidgeons?

VOTE: Aneninen

Yep.

[acryon]

Why would scum roleclaim midway through day 1 with no pressure whatsoever?

This is dependent on the player. There's not a universal answer. The question isn't why scum would roleclaim, it's why Almost50 would roleclaim under no pressure. The answer is because that's what he'd do.

How is being the first person to start the wagon on someone who is fairly widely town-read opportunistic?

Being the first vote doesn't matter. Someone having been previously widely townread also doesn't matter if momentum has begun to shift onto them. That's what I've seen from your votes.

How has momentum begun to shift on them without any votes? I imagine if this was a scenario where there were lots of votes on them, you would say I was being opportunistic and sheeping. But since there haven't really been, I am opportunistic and following the " sentiment momentum" (does that sound right?)? Seems like you would come up with whatever to support your narrative. Also if you actually looked at all my votes you'd see they don't even follow the picture you're trying to paint.

[acryon]

How has momentum begun to shift on them without any votes? I imagine if this was a scenario where there were lots of votes on them, you would say I was being opportunistic and sheeping. But since there haven't really been, I am opportunistic and following the " sentiment momentum" (does that sound right?)? Seems like you would come up with whatever to support your narrative. Also if you actually looked at all my votes you'd see they don't even follow the picture you're trying to paint.

Erm... I actually posted why I think you're scum. 946. It was not only about your votes. Nothing you've done since then looked town.

I was not talking to you.

[acryon]

Why would you just quote my comment and reply to it like it was toward you and not a reply to Ranger's post?

[acryon]

Oh I'm terribly sorry that I've forgotten that in this game, I'm not a player who is worth talking TO; I'm the player who is only worth talking AT.

You replied to a quote of mine which was very clearly part of a discussion with Ranger and then just tagged your comment on like I was talking about you. Why would you say "I actually posted why I think you're scum". Actually implies a correction. What part of my post were you correcting?

[acryon]

It sounded as if you thought the only reason for scumreading you had been your vote pattern. I corrected that fact.

Except I was clearly talking to him about his reasons. Your reasons are flawed on their own, but we're not talking about that right now (nor do we need to I don't think). Looks to me like you're deflecting.

[acryon]

What can I say?

Still want BC dead, don't really feel the anen wagon. Honestly still reeling from the texcat flip, ordinarily I'd talk with RC though I haven't seen him on skype for like a week now. Could also settle for kop at this point.

You can say a lot more than that, anything really. You "could settle for kop at this point" says nothing. Why do you not feel the anen wagon? Get over the tex flip.

[acryon]

I think we should pressurize KT by voting him, personally. To see how he would defend himself.

I'm not sure this would provide anything profitable personally. What are you expecting? Emotional flailing? That's already been a lot of his game.

[acryon]

Then come day 4 or 5 he is either going to be easy mislynch candidate/ manipulation candidate or if scum he is going to win. He is, actively playing on scum's win condition, lurking, not adding much to the discussion, practically unlynchable but also not much participation.

Trust me; I agree with all of this, but time and time again, I have pushed these kinds of players for days and days and then the game eventually ends and they were town. Obviously this isn't always the case, but I am reluctant to lynch someone for what is essentially policy when in my experience these players are often town. Perfect target for a cop though.

[acryon]

Also, I don't think KainThraddash would be a good lynch. I see that it would be detrimental if he were here at LyLo (unless his gameplay would change a lot – and that's not impossible!) – but right now he looks like a lynch scums could compromise easily without getting FoS-sed.

Agree with all of this.

[acryon]

@Mod: V/LA until Monday morning CST.

[acryon]

@Xtoxm - Why did you think outing you suspected I was a VT was a good idea? I was hoping to have scum think I was the tracker/cop and draw more bullets not less. There's a missing kill. I was the logical jail choice (given the jailors scumreads). For any scumteam to miss a kill, they'd have to be dumb or desperate. Dumb leaves KT or Aninen (thought he could fake a case on me) or KT. Desperate leaves Aninen or MKA or a partner of theirs.

~Titus

This reads very contrived. Thankfully we still have 7 days to work things out.

[acryon]

FoS

davesaz.

I'm here, but it's a heavy workday and also my daughter's birthday.
Gonna need some old-fashioned scumhunting here. That will take time that I don't have right now, will have to be later in the evening.

Furthermore it's a heavy work week, I'm hosting some big meetings.

LA Wed-Fri

Fine, but then Wed-Fri came and went and we got this:

Well, it was fairly easy to keep up with reading, but not so easy to keep up with analysis.
I think I'll have to re-read the whole day, and look at yesterday's wagons too.

Great, that will be awesome. And then all we get is:

Missing kill?

Where's the content dave? You've said nothing this entire day phase.

[acryon]

If there are two scum teams I would not be at all surprised if Aneninen and BC are both scum on opposing teams.
Trying to figure out who the partners would be in that scenario.

Do you think the missing kill comment was a scumslip?

[acryon]

Please talk to me about how you think Acryon is looking worse with his posting

The waffle in 1209. The focus on dave in 1211. Stuff like that.

How is pointing out a bad part of a post a waffle? If it's waffling to feel someone is likely town and then question a sketchy post, then I'm all for it I guess. No one should be putting people above suspicion.

And do you not see a problem with what dave did? He literally hadn't posted a single piece of content this entire day phase. If he's scum, then let's turn up the heat. If he's town, then wake up.

[acryon]

If there are two scum teams I would not be at all surprised if Aneninen and BC are both scum on opposing teams.
Trying to figure out who the partners would be in that scenario.

Do you think the missing kill comment was a scumslip?

I see BC setting up a narrative of them being JK'd by a suspicious Kuroi as the explanation of a missing kill. But I question why that would be mentioned by town, since there is no evidence of a 2nd kill. Even in a MB scenario, from a town perspective all it would do is tell scum why their kill failed. On the other hand, if there are 2 scum teams it's a high probability that both teams have a RB (WW roles mimic Mafia roles in the setup and mafia get a RB in one of the weak BG setups). In that environment, the narrative makes a dandy reaction test to find the other team's RB.

But doesn't it also raise some red flags (as it did here) being the first person to bring up the possibility of a missing kill? I'm certainly not saying this means they wouldn't bring it up, but I guess you think they thought it was worth the risk? But again, why bring up an answer to a question no one was asking?

[acryon]

I think we're agreeing that it's scummy.

Well yes and no. I agree that it's fishy, but I'm also feeling that there is no real incentive to bring it up when the potential cons would far outweigh the benefits. But I'm not decided, which is why I'm looking to get more of your insight on it.

I should have clarified, but I rarely ask rhetorical questions. I ask because I want to get answers for myself and the town.

[acryon]

So are you veering away from Acyron could be town stance now?

Yes.

How is pointing out a bad part of a post a waffle?

Thankfully we still have 7 days to work things out.

This is the waffle. Stating we have time to work things out is stating that there's seven days to figure Burning Crystal out, i.e. waffle.

[quote="acryon]And do you not see a problem with what dave did?

None. He's not exactly a town beacon, but I've no issues with his posts.[/quote][/quote]
Again, if you think that wanting to look into a player you were leaning town on because of a sketchy comment is a bad thing, then I don't know what to tell you.

FoS davesaz.

I don't think the things you pointed out are scummy in themselves.

[/quote]
I didn't say they were scummy per se either. My intent was to get davesaz to talk, which I was successful in doing. Sometimes a FoS or vote will get that done quicker than just asking nicely.

[acryon]

In this case a good night's sleep had more to do with it, but appreciate the attempt.
BTW, got any reads?

Anen

is still scum.

Ranger

is probably scum. Vote remains on a claimed PR, but no real attempts to do anything with that. Other things like his trying to make me look bad. Funnily enough, let's look at this post:

So are you veering away from Acyron could be town stance now?

Yes.

How is pointing out a bad part of a post a waffle?

Thankfully we still have 7 days to work things out.

This is the waffle. Stating we have time to work things out is stating that there's seven days to figure Burning Crystal out, i.e. waffle.

[quote="acryon]And do you not see a problem with what dave did?

None. He's not exactly a town beacon, but I've no issues with his posts.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]
He literally is waffling by his definition while defining my waffling in the same post.

Dave

is town.

Xtomx

feels town for the same reason he feels I'm town. His thought processes make a lot of sense to me.

Almost50

is probably town.

MadKing

felt more town before today, but is now closer to a null. I need more content from them.

Kop

feels town. Everything I have questioned of his doesn't feel nefarious at all, and 1030 feels much more likely to come from town than scum.

KT

. Who knows. I've hard-pushed similar slots in past games and they are usually town, but you never know.

Chilledtea

feels town, although we disagree on who is scum which is unfortunate.

Burning Crystal

is a big question mark for me. A big part of my feeling of the slot being town has to do with me really not liking the wagon. The slot itself I'm not so sure about, but I know I'm still not happy with the wagon.

[acryon]

HELOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hello. Can you give me a list of each player and your read on them? And for the love of all that is good, no caps. Although I'm glad I've played with you because now I will put a no caps rule in any game I mod

[acryon]

My questions to you are in this format in the quote :

In this case a good night's sleep had more to do with it, but appreciate the attempt.
BTW, got any reads?

Anen

is still scum.

1 - Can I get some reasons on this?

If you look through my ISO, you'll see the various issues I've had with him, but mostly it comes down to him trying to make things seem scummy that just aren't, and going down roads that misdirect town from scumhunting. 1053 is a good example.

Kop

feels town. Everything I have questioned of his doesn't feel nefarious at all, and 1030 feels much more likely to come from town than scum.

2 - Is it appropriate to judge a person on one post?

No, which is why that linked post was merely an addendum to my feelings which are based on his body of work.

Burning Crystal

is a big question mark for me. A big part of my feeling of the slot being town has to do with me really not liking the wagon. The slot itself I'm not so sure about, but I know I'm still not happy with the wagon.

3 - Why do you not like the wagon?

The primary reason being the lack of defenders. Wagons on scum tend to have people defending it. As far as I remember, no one was really opposed to it until I said I was. It also doesn't help that Anen is leading that wagon and his cases are dependent on a decent helping of misrepresentation.

[acryon]

Maybe BC's scumpartner can't find anything to defend. Maybe Ranger is the BC scumpartner.

Yeah I suppose a second scum-team would eliminate my criticism about no real defenders. Although it still makes me nervous that Anen is leading it who may as well be confscum.

[acryon]

BC could also be the serial killer btw. This is assuming that what almost is saying is true.

Right. I guess I'm hesitant about pursuing things with the assumption that this is MB when we don't have that confirmation.

[acryon]

BC could also be the serial killer btw. This is assuming that what almost is saying is true.

Right. I guess I'm hesitant about pursuing things with the assumption that this is MB when we don't have that confirmation.

Uhh...what does MB mean here

This is a term I've just become familiar with, but it stands for multiball, which now that I look it up means games with more than one informed minority, but SK's don't count. So that probably wasn't the correct use by me. Ignore my use and replace it with "game with more than one anti-town faction."

[acryon]

Ranger is still leaning into my scum pile. I'd actually consider some more votes on her.

I want Anen first for sure, and since we've got some time I'd like to keep building that.

[acryon]

I didn't say they were scummy per se either. My intent was to get davesaz to talk, which I was successful in doing. Sometimes a FoS or vote will get that done quicker than just asking nicely.

This is backtracking at its finest. An FoS is, by definition, accusing a player of doing something scummy. Votes serve much the same purpose. (I realize "I voted for reactions!" is a theoretically-plausible action, but it's an awful one which virtually nobody uses for good reason.)

What? You're really saying that people don't vote for reactions for good reason? This happens all the time. I use votes for pressure or because I desire to see someone lynched. This is fairly standard practice across the board.

Ranger is probably scum. Vote remains on a claimed PR, but no real attempts to do anything with that.

And the scum motivation for this is...?

The scum motivation is to put a vote out on someone controversial so it doesn't look like you're just sitting back, but then not go anywhere with it so you have no PR blood on your hands if he were to be lynched and flip PR.

He literally is waffling by his definition while defining my waffling in the same post.

Oh, really? Point out where. 'Cause that post is calling you scum, and nothing other than calling you scum.

What's not painfully clear? Someone asked you if you were veering away from believing me to be town and you say yes, and then damn me for potentially veering from a townread on someone else.

[acryon]

If you look through my ISO, you'll see the various issues I've had with him, but mostly it comes down to him trying to make things seem scummy that just aren't, and going down roads that misdirect town from scumhunting. 1053 is a good example.

Isn't it strange that you're still bringing that up whereas you're BLATANTLY ignoring that others have made similar speculations. Eg. BurningCrystal's Setup post was absolutely not scummy, was it?

Because you are the one that decided to run with it and entertain it. Responsible thing to do as town there is not speculate, because it takes us down a path that may be irrelevant. Instead you seem to fully embrace it without question.

Yeah I suppose a second scum-team would eliminate my criticism about no real defenders. Although it still makes me nervous that Anen is leading it who may as well be confscum.

Since when have I been "may as well confscum"? Oh, wait, because you and BurningCrystal say it so. Aaaaaaaaand I'm lurking and tunnelling. If so, what are YOU doing?

For example:

I want Anen first for sure, and since we've got some time I'd like to keep building that.

Some clear hyperbole from me, but I think things like my 1234 make clear that I'm, not here to tunnel or lurk.

[acryon]

@Acryon, I disagree on the "responsible" thing being not to speculate. That's part of the reason I feel intelligence is scumread. By figuring out what must exist, you can figure out what claims can or cannot happen and therefore what must be true. You realize what happened when I posted my setup? No one tried to say it was wrong, people went straight to scumslip rather than giving feedback. That tells me I was right.

Except we can't actually figure out what else exists without more claims, so I don't see the point in discussing it unless the goal is to accidentally out a PR. That's my issue with it. Instead of it getting us somewhere, people instead latch onto comments as scumslips, so it's not getting us any real information. We are potentially wasting our energy and screwing up our reads trying to find two separate scum teams when it's possible there is only one. I think it just complicates things when scumhunting is already difficult enough.

[acryon]

@Acroyn that's where you're wrong. Even if we go with Ranger's ridiculousness that Almost is scum, we can conclude there's a weak BG in the setup. Why? Because if there was no weak BG and someone had a role that conflicted, they would have said so (and just not specified what it was). So we can make that deduction straight away. I can see a hypothetical silence on a CC if they were the weak bg but that seems farfetched.

So we are in setups that only have a weak BG. That much is pretty clear.

Yes, and I agree there. But things get a lot harrier when we are speculating on possible setups that are so drastically different (one anti-town faction vs. two)

[acryon]

@Almost,

Me being protected is also frankly pretty easy to deduce.

First, Kuroi likely jailed his scumread.
Jailing a bodyguard claim in this setup is stupid, like I mentioned.
So, I was jailed.

There's a missing kill (which I explained above)

That leaves either a) both scum kills shot the jailor or b) I was shot and protected

Both scum shooting the jailor with terrible reads makes zero sense.

Thus, I was shot and protected.

Yeah I guess it's actually hard to argue against this being a likely scenario. Not going to pretend I have a good rebuttal when I don't.

[acryon]

We have different scenarios of action here to unfold some clues. Like, I could protect BC tonight. Or maybe I can protect Anen if that's more convenient. What I know is I'm not going to protect KT for instance, bc -even IF they're town; which I very much doubt- they're not benefiting the town much. I would rather protect someone who can help the town win rather than be a useless troll all over.

P.S. I'm not announcing my night target beforehand. You'll just have to guess whom I was on if I get NK'd. If I make it through the night though you might get yourself another confirmed townie.

No offense, but what is the point of this post?

[acryon]

No offense, but what is the point of this post?

I'm saying I'm town reading BC AND Anen and do not wish for either to be lynched today. I could check on either by night to verify they're town. Need I phrase that any clearer?

That's kind of a big ask for the town to not pursue the two biggest wagons for the sake of a possible investigation by you if and only if you even live, which seems unlikely.

[acryon]

Because you are the one that decided to run with it and entertain it. Responsible thing to do as town there is not speculate, because it takes us down a path that may be irrelevant. Instead you seem to fully embrace it without question.

Erm, I had one single post about it. And some players jumped onto me because of that. Others have posted plenty of things about the same topic. Your answer still doesn't explain why you don't bother about all those players.

Because you were the first to run with it, as I said. Some people can't help being followers. You, on the other hand, know better than to lead people there.

Some clear hyperbole from me, but I think things like my 1234 make clear that I'm, not here to tunnel or lurk.

Apart from the facts you've refused to move your vote and your gameplay is very different to the town-play I know...

You'll see in most games that I make mention of the fact that my playstyle adjusts based on the town culture, not alignment. And also keeping my vote on the same person =/= tunneling.

[acryon]

That's kind of a big ask for the town to

not pursue the two biggest wagons for the sake of a possible investigation

by you if and only if you even live, which seems unlikely.

Notice.
At that point BurningCrystal had 3 votes, Kain and me 2–2 votes.
That's how misrepresentation of the facts work.

If you were reading the thread you would know better than to suggest you and KT had equal wagons based on overall sentiment. Just because the votes haven't been placed, it is clear you and BC were the main two.

[acryon]

Because you are the one that decided to run with it and entertain it. Responsible thing to do as town there is not speculate, because it takes us down a path that may be irrelevant. Instead you seem to fully embrace it without question.

Erm, I had one single post about it. And some players jumped onto me because of that. Others have posted plenty of things about the same topic. Your answer still doesn't explain why you don't bother about all those players.

Because you were the first to run with it, as I said. Some people can't help being followers. You, on the other hand, know better than to lead people there.

Wow-wow-wow, are you someone from our government? You're spreading bullshyt in the similar way.
This ALONE shows that you're NOT interested in reading the game, forming reads, you're simply after me because you're after me period.
Aaaaaaaaaaaand let's ignore the fact that I was the one who started scumreading you on Day1.
Had I done something similar you'd done, I'd have accused of OMGUS-ing by now.

This game would be a perfect illustration for an encyclopaedia for "Double standards".

Maybe that's because one of us is scum and the other is town. That tends to be a good reason to treat people differently.

[acryon]

@Mod: V/LA until Monday morning CDT.

Happy with my vote.

[acryon]

Ugh come on guys. Anen is clear scum here. And Ranger most likely too. Get them tomorrow.

[acryon]

@Mod: Is kill flavor based on faction-type or did you just choose two ways of saying killed randomly?

[acryon]

No, all kills may have any flavor on them, but are functionally undifferentiated.

Oops sorry, I forgot you answered this.

Just talking out loud here, but we have a cop somewhere with two innocents. That gives us 3 confirmed towns. With 2 NKs, I almost wonder if its worth them claiming today to make our discussions a lot clearer while we still have townies alive. Someone feel free to tell me why this is bad, because I haven't thought it through TBH.

[acryon]

Almost forgot.

VOTE: Anen

Still scum. Ranger too.

[acryon]

Ranger is scum. I had a feeling with her nonsensical tunnelling of almost who was unclaimed bodyguard. The shift in her tone in the last post + her ridiculous assertion on me - I am thankful for that because now my job of finding the remaining scum has become easier.

Acryon's recent post gave me pretty bad vibes and I am not sure what to do about that. Unless innocents is used to indicate investigations it doesn't make sense how acryon knows that the cop has two innocents. He could be having a guilty.

I assume they have innocents because they likely would have come out already or at least been pushing someone hard right now if they had a guilty. I mean it would be awesome if they had a guilty, but seems unlikely given what I said.

[acryon]

Almost forgot.

VOTE: Anen

Still scum. Ranger too.

What do you think of BC? I am struggling to read her at this point.

I'm unfortuantely in the same boat re: BC.

VOTE: Anen

I would be surprised if our cop has innos but a tracker might.

~Titus

Why would you be surprised if our cop had innos? Wouldn't they come out if they had a guilty?

[acryon]

it is CLEAR that chilledtea is SCUM!!!! WE NEED TO SHOW RESILIENCE IN THE FACE OF ADVERSARY!!!

VOTE: chilledTEA

No he is not.

[acryon]

@Acryon, I would be surprised if Dave had any results at all.

~Titus

Ah I suppose there is likely a mafia RB. This is why I asked people to tell me why my plan was terrible, and it seems like it is.

[acryon]

Lynch is easily Anen or Ranger today. I'd prefer Anen since I've been scumreading him the whole time, but Ranger is also a very prime choice. Specifically Ranger sheeped Chilled yesterday and now all of a sudden has 180'd on them based on just a couple posts.

[acryon]

I think that's a mischarachterization. Ranger appeared to be pretty certain Kop was scum. Kop flipped town. Same for Almost50. Ranger's naturally going to rework their reads. I would be more concerned if Ranger kept on the same path.

I am more concerned with KT's "rallying the troops" kind of post.

I think there is a difference between a natural reworking of reads and immediately changing tune after the first couple posts of the day, although there's a reason I'm still on Anen and not Ranger.

Spots like KT's are terrible, and I honestly wish there was a broader definition of what defines trolling, because KT's presence in this game makes it worse for every person who is town, because who knows if they are town or scum? They don't say anything, just make noise.

[acryon]

I could go for KT on that basis. I just am really perturbed at why this Anen wagon never gets traction

and no one says he's town anymore

. If he's town, I would expect some jumping or sudden revelations in an awkward attempt to get on his wagon, naked sheeping, or weak attacks/questions to attempt to move that way. Instead, we got a lot of ignoring us.

Exactly. I have no idea why it hasn't been able to move forward. He is great at just talking a lot which I think scares people off of it, even though they don't really feel he is town.

[acryon]

I'm thinking that I want to review MKA's reads before proceeding.

Keep in mind they apparently didn't know Kuroi claimed jailer and were essentially absent for much of the day yesterday.

[acryon]

Probably it's Setup 6 or 10

Can't be 6. 5, 10, or 12.

[acryon]

Is 1117 the right post?

It's 1177.

[acryon]

Still think that Adenine is town.

This half-clears Aneninen (maybe full-clears, depending on whether Almost50 was shot or suicided; impossible to know the difference), because Aneninen would

not

shoot someone hard-townreading them.

This doesn't clear him in any capacity, especially if there are scum and WW.

I'll have to compare Ranger's analysis to actual events. She's either spot on or it's a remarkable feat of misdirection.

It's certainly the latter.

[acryon]

It is not setup 10, because the setup does contain a RB. We either have setup 12 which is 4:2:2 remaining with a cop, tracker, mafia rb, goon, ww rb, ww goon, 2 citizens; or setup 5 which is 6:2 with cop, pgo, mafia rb, mafia follower, 4 citizens. I'm nearly certain it is 12 -- the only ways it could be 5 would be if Almost tried to BG scum or if Almost ran into the PGO (in which case we are probably lost due to the 1-shot).

Whether the remaining PR is tracker or PGO, we do not want a claim.

I'll have to compare Ranger's analysis to actual events. She's either spot on or it's a remarkable feat of misdirection.

One hundred percent disagree with no claim.

Claim from tracker is the last chance to reset.

Scum likely know the setup.

We can determine the ideal next play.

Scum actually 100% know the setup, since the only options include RB + Follower + Goon, RB + Goon, GF + Goon + Goon.

[acryon]

If we are in setup 12, we lose our tracker but get their results. If we are in setup 10, we lose nothing. If we are in 5, scum gets to avoid PGO, but cop does too.

[acryon]

I AM VANILLA TOWNIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are not supposed to go yet. Anen goes.

[acryon]

Before claiming.
Who else has claimed so far?

This post is clear scum.

But it's still your turn, so please claim.

[acryon]

VT
and I hope townies will realize that those two who were advocating my claim that loud (without themselves claiming) are those two who've been scumread by me for ages and, not coincidentially, have been tunnelling me for ages.

Popcorn BurningCrystal.

You know how popcorn claiming works, so don't try to demonize someone trying to maintain the integrity of that process.

[acryon]

I'll still be around for 90 minutes or so, so if the popcorn gets to me before then I can claim. Otherwise I'll try to get on over the weekend but I may not be able to until Monday.

@Mod

: I'll be V/LA until Monday morning CST.

[acryon]

Phone posting just to claim.

VT.

Xtoxm next.

[acryon]

Interesting, wolves must think they can beat us in LYLO. That gives me a huge clue, and I'm in no hurry to vote.

Didn't you get a result?

[acryon]

Acryon, who do you think is scum?

Anen and Ranger.

[acryon]

Interesting, wolves must think they can beat us in LYLO. That gives me a huge clue, and I'm in no hurry to vote.

Didn't you get a result?

As if you had never seen this.

It should be clear already since I didn't get any strong town reads or guilties, but I was RB'd both nights.

I was talking about last night, where he definitely was not RB'd since the RB got lynched. Did you not realize a whole night happened between 1533 and 1581?

[acryon]

...and why did you assume a change?

Are you kidding? I just said why. There was no RB last night therefore Davesaz should have gotten a result.

[acryon]

The Setup says: the WW team's PRs are the same as the Mafia's.

Besides, you know there was no Roleblock, because of...?

In that case ignore everything I said, because I didn't realize that was a thing.

[acryon]

Acryon, it's pretty common knowledge the ww have a blocker too. It's in the setup.

This is my fault for not reading those extra parts. I always just looked at the matrix and additions in bold. Also didn't figure out setup until today so I didn't have much reason to think about it.

Not ready to vote since I'm not 100% on my reads.

[acryon]

ugh are you kidding me?

[acryon]

Man I was so sure you were scum this game Anen. Sorry

[acryon]

Yeah I mean definitely my order was Anen, Ranger, BC, Dave from Scum to Town, band it would have been tough for me to get you and BC switched.

[acryon]

RC, Stop. Or Ill have nothing left to do but lock the thread and report this harassing behavior as well

This is a thread about a game and I'm talking about what happened in the game.

Lock the thread.

No. You are ultimately talking about something outside of the game. Please discuss this outside of the thread so those that may want to discuss actual gameplay can continue to do so.

[acryon]

Actually it was Acryon and me who'd f-cked this up for town. Mostly me, but Acryon helped too. ^_^

Yep sure did haha

[acryon]

Im not sure why everyone backed off from Titus.

BC began getting aggitated and when pressure started and people stopped. They even townread it.

Its a textbook case of AtE being used

I think it has something to do with experience. I think just knowing Titus is good made me believe the emotion was genuine and believing scum-Titus wouldn't lose her cool.

[acryon]

Am I not correct?

You showed me in the KAAG game that you can't effectively read people's AtE's for genuineness when you townread all of KAAG's AtEs and he was scum.

This is the exact same thing, outside of a mafia game or inside of it. And isn't this why we play mafia?

To see through those who would otherwise manipulate us?

Yep, inside the game. You can take your personal issues elsewhere. Seriously you

are

making this about you.

[acryon]

Also appeal to emotion can be genuine. But one should not depend on it. I have accepted that mislynching a townie if emotion is the only evidence against scumminess is probably better than letting scum get away with it.

Yeah that's not a bad thing to go by.

[acryon]

I think I mentioned somewhere that I dont think enough players come into multiball really ready to wifom through it.


Did the setup seem balanced, or otherwise okay?

I disagreed with the ability of scum to use their own action plus the NK, when a partner exists to do the NK. Both teams seem to have identified the potential to nerf the tracker (and to a lesser extent JK) by having both actions submitted by the same player.

For this specific setup, I'm not sure about the balance of having two full RB's. It seems to leave town vulnerable, though maybe I'm thinking swing more than balance. Or maybe it just feels that way because so many roles got outed early.

A two wolf team knows for sure it's multiball, but do mafia also know? That could give wolves an advantage.

I'd assume they would based on the setup combinations.

Two full RBs is incredibly balanced but the cop being obvious so early just made the RB actions predictable.

Yeah it wasn't particularly great that we had essentially 3 PRs outed day 1.

[acryon]

Eh I can't help but disagree. His playstyle, town or scum, makes the game less enjoyable for everyone in town. There are a million ways to play the game that don't have that effect on town. Maybe I'm a bit of a purist, but I don't like the idea of leading people astray based on something other than words.