Newbie 1764: Wind Game Over

[Mewtaph]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald
Hey Gamma!

@Charloux: No RVS vote? Is this your playstyle or did you just not feel like making one?

[Mewtaph]

Slight townread on nydus. His excited opening reminds me of how I felt when I first joined the site. I don't think that scum!nydus would start off their game with what I would describe as almost a surplus of analysis despite not much happening yet.

Howdy Mew! Let's hope this time you don't gloss over obvious scum!
@DBW: I only spoke first because no one else spoke before me.

Haha, I've got a lot more energy to devote to this game than I did in that game, so hopefully such things won't slip past my radar this time round.

[Mewtaph]

You were enthusiastic in the genuine "let's get this show on the road" way, not the current "!!!" way. It's often easy to do the latter while trying to fake the former.

I actually like Gamma so far. I tried to look for what you're saying and I agree that 13 feels over the top but other than that I like the enthusiasm he's trying to bring to the game. It keeps the game moving.

@Van/DBW: What do you think about the game state thus far?

[Mewtaph]

well, i doubt accountant will do all work, in other site we had rule, if IC lives to D3 in newbie game, then IC is most likely scum so i expect accountant get night killed sometime soon

we in RVS stage, so this whole voting and this wagon isn't serious, so we shouldn't look at it too much, and wagons aren't scummy by itself, wagons without good reason and full of sheeps are scummy

Do you consider sheeping (following another player's vote with your own) a scumtell, or do you think of it on a case by case basis?

[Mewtaph]

I don't know, too early to tell. I don't like Charloux post about hammering, but I assume that is an inside joke I am just not privy to

This interests me. You acknowledge that it is probably a post made in jest, which I agree with but you indicate that you still don't like Charloux's post because it talks about hammering.
Is there something about the way he talks about hammering that makes you feel like it's scummy in particular?

[Mewtaph]

I think sheeping would be where you vote a player not because you think the reasoning they are scum is strong but because you simply want to vote someone, or you trust the other person who voted them.

Cheers, that's a better way of putting it.

[Mewtaph]

I think mewtaph is lightly townie too after a reread. I think that the way he addressed charloux sounded like he was potentially pushing scum on char, but wasn't really too accusatory and instead, felt more inquisitive.

@nydushermain: Say Player X came in for their first post with an accusation on one of the active players, Player Y. How would you go about trying to read this kind of post?

[Mewtaph]

It's getting late for me, I'll get to you folks at a later time. My timezone is around Accountant's I believe, so that'll be interesting.

[Mewtaph]

Prodge. Siteflaked, trying to catch up on all my games. Posts should come in a bit.

[Mewtaph]

I think mewtaph is lightly townie too after a reread. I think that the way he addressed charloux sounded like he was potentially pushing scum on char, but wasn't really too accusatory and instead, felt more inquisitive.

@nydushermain: Say Player X came in for their first post with an accusation on one of the active players, Player Y. How would you go about trying to read this kind of post?

It would depend on the circumstance. I know I didn't really say this as a reason but to be honest, I really liked how what you posted sounded in my head. I read it in a sassy way and I liked it.

I guess it's largely on a case by case basis. Similarly to how I feel that OMGUS isn't necessarily scum indicative depending on how someone does it. I guess what I'm worried about currently is what you look for while scum hunting. Based on your Accountant vote, it sounds like you don't like his passiveness and no sense of follow up on his questions. Talk about it with me. I think IC posting is naturally passive/neutral, have you factored this into your read? What exactly makes you feel like Accountant feels off here. Is there something about the way Accountant presents game theory and how he asks questions that "pings" you in particular?

[Mewtaph]

Ramcius: your playstyle reminds me of aggressive town that is completely willing to embrace your paranoidness. I notice that you said that you "bite" if you get attacked by baseless accusations. I presume you would not respond well to a short-term "You are scum" accusation. Since Charloux has indicated that he'd respond similarly, has this changed how you have viewed Charloux at all, since you must be able to relate with this?

you can't scumread Accountant for asking questions and being passive, he's IC in newbie game, so it's sorta what he supposed to do, let us do stuff and guide, atleast on start of game

I'm saying scum has less motivation to provide more content.

If someone enjoys playing scum, i think they would put in more effort, don't ya think?

another slip? [...] scum always avoid give content, and you try convince Gamma opposite, and how you know Accountant enjoy playing scum? He told in mafia PT?

I also personally think you should reign in on making posts like these. I feel that you're finding evidence to help you explain your personal thought on scum!Charloux, rather than the other way around. While I can see this from paranoid + aggressive town you, I can also see this from scum you trying to hide behind a "slip". Instead, you should focus on trying to articulate to the thread what feels off about Charloux instead of focusing on things like slips. While working off of slips sounds good theoretically, it is often clouded by speaking out of POV, humour, rxn testing, etc.
I have a read on Charloux myself that I will likely share after you respond.

[Mewtaph]

nice wall you got here, and all this true, if we assume Charloux is town, which is opposite to what i'm saying

i didn't call him scum yet, i just point out things that pings me and wait his responses

if someone blatantly call me scum? Probably i would laugh, maybe mock a little that person

Your read on Charloux is still unclear. Has something happened from that post and now to change your perspective? What was it?

[Mewtaph]

Ouch 87 and 107 were intended for you, but i guess it was too forceful.

Explain please, I don't follow.

[Mewtaph]

I end up being a burden to town in most of my games, i feel kind of pathetic.
There is a way for my actions so far to be seen as town, but most people here are too paranoid to think about it. Now then, telling the whole truth will reduce the chance of town winning a lot. Getting myself lynched would have the same effect, so i think i'll risk it and hope i don't get lynched.

There's something about Charloux's recent posts that feels more genuine to me than a normal display of anger, it feels like a sombre, subtle tone of frustration, towards himself that feels town to me.

I have a few things I'd like to get sorted out though.

I'll go on a limb here and say you are using an alter-ego in this game, or you are just bad with pressure hence taking an aggressive approach to fend off any potential attacks on your slot.

I don't see town mentality there.

I disagree with the angle you're trying to take on Ramcius so far. I think that the mentality that he's showing can belong to both alignments, and I'm getting the impression that he would act like this regardless of alignment like it's his sort of meta he's already developed. I think that it might be a combination of both because he strikes me as more confident than scared, it doesn't seem like an either/or situation to me. Can you see this?

I like the idea behind what you're trying to explain, that you were trying to test Accountant because we can't get him in conventional ways which I can understand where this thought comes from. The problem I have is that I don't think that it was particularly clear that Accountant was supposed to recognize what you're saying at all, so it just comes off as if you're thinking a bit too much about PRs than you really should be imo.

[Mewtaph]

Yep, so I already feel out of my depth in this game :/ Sorry everyone for being inactive, I have been a little unreliably attached to the internet for the last 2-3 days.

That's alright, just get your thoughts into the thread, you don't have to feel extremely confident about all of them. Generally, more conversation = good.

@DBW: You previously expressed distaste towards Gamma's wagon being at L-2 in your second post, could you expand on this thought a bit more? Can you pinpoint what exactly made you feel uncomfortable about the Gamma wagon?

And speaking of Gamma, if you're still around, do you want to talk with me about anyone you feel particularly strongly about? I don't have a big impression on you atm. (town lean for read transparency) I think I need more than a rainbow read list to get a strong read on you, I agree with your Ramcius + nydus townreads, maybe not that strength on Ramcius but I want more from you on your other reads.

[Mewtaph]

Thirdly, a lot of what I am doing right now is trying to get into people's mindset. Ramcius is paranoid. Gamma is enthusiastic.

Mewtaph is trying to game-solve.

Some of these things are indicative of certain alignments. Some are not, but they help me understand where a player is coming from so it's easier to determine their alignment in the following posts.

Secondly, you claim that I do not have a decent set of reads. Again, I am not sure where you got this impression. I do have quite a few reads - specifically I read Gamma as slightly scummy, Ramcius as town, and Charloux and

Mewtaph as moderately townie.

Granted, these are not complete or particularly strong, but it's unreasonable to expect very strong reads on page 3.

@Accountant: I was rereading for things that feel off to me and I don't feel great about your 69 where you basically say, "Mew is trying to game-solve = moderately townie." It just seems a bit lazy to me that you aren't really bothering to sort me even now like I kind of expected. I understand that you posted that partly to explain yourself to nydus early on even though the reads were premature, but I'm assuming these reads are still reasonably accurate. I really don't like how you and Gamma aren't trying to actively sort out your hard nulls + moderate townreads, that may just be a personal preference but I put a high priority on trying to sort these reads into essentially anything else ASAP.

[Mewtaph]

I believe that what Accountant is doing is provoking people to show there true self. Questions in mafia are not asked for people to get answers but to see reactions. Ways they answer are hints to who they are. Tho this can also be used as a great protection. Xe almost talks like all his actions till this point are all made in the benefit of town. While other members are showing some motives and are even demonstating there playstyles, Accountant is being calm and collected, asking questions and then leaving them at that, without taking actions or persuing people who he belives are not town to further pressure them.

FoS: Accountant

Has Accountant's posts 69 and 83 eased your suspicions or "FoS" on Accountant in any way? Why/why not?

[Mewtaph]

I asked something similar to nydus in 129, which I think both of you need to sort out in some way or another if either of you want to continue pushing Accountant in a meaningful manner.

[Mewtaph]

that makes 0 sense

why? we need find mafia, you do nothing to help, how that not makes sense? we can misslynch 2 times and still win, so i'm totally fine with PL on someone, who do nothing

What I meant is that I can't understand your English.

??

[Mewtaph]

@ny: The game being shorter if Accountant wasn't posting is more indicative of Accountant being town imo

Then why is Accountant null on your readlist?

[Mewtaph]

Well that's a lot of stuff to go through.
Thoughts in a bit.

[Mewtaph]

@Mewtaph do you still want me to explain reads, if so which ones?

Tell me more about your VVD townread. I think that's one of your most original thoughts that definitely needs to be expanded on.

[Mewtaph]

Re: Nydus/Accountant (mostly nydus):

Spoiler:

That doesn't explain

anything

. I'm asking why you seem to not be fighting very hard against a lynch you've acknowledge yourself as suboptimal. Yes, it's not the worst lynch in the world, there's still a chance of DBW being scum. But any reasonable town who wants to win does not want "merely passable" lynches. They want the

best possible lynch

every single day. There is absolutely 0 reason for you as town to not care that the lynch that we are having is not the best possible lynch unless you don't care about town executing the best possible lynch. And only scum has that kind of thinking.

Hey Accountant, what's stopping that thought process just being town!nydus thinking along the lines of
"I'll let the lurker wagon play out first and analyze it instead because I sure as hell am not going to stop it, I don't townread him."?

What I'm seeing right now with nydus and you is that I don't see scum!nydus playing like this. And the biggest thing that sticks out to me is the way Accountant attacking nydus reminds me a lot of my first game.
Similar to my game, nydus responds with what looks to me what is legitimate confusion and "I honestly don't have all the answers right now," but still an underlying aggro tone back at Accountant.
Game Link (me vs goodmorning): http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=68228
Very similar to me, he doesn't like how Accountant is ignoring him and moving his attention elsewhere and reads this as scum. Given how similar and just straight up how much I can relate to nydus' play right now, I think this is a TvT. (If anything I think that this interaction) If either of you legitimately still think either of you are still scum, please break it down into a list of sorts that I can poke holes at; this reminds me wayyy too much about my first game that I cannot ignore it. And I will push this agenda until both of you accept it.
Btw, I generally hate votes where the underlying reasoning is "I don't see town mentality behind this" and some shitty scumtells that really just seem like stretches, etc, I've been on the receiving end of that bs too many times. (and funnily enough, it usually comes from town)
Now, on the flip side, I agree with the 3 scum thing, I didn't like that. But this is no way changes my townread on nydus.

[Mewtaph]

"I'll let the lurker wagon play out first and analyze it instead because I sure as hell am not going to stop it, I don't townread him."?

I mean, sure, that's fine. But then why does he go the trouble of pointing out how awful the DBW wagon is compared to me - and why is he sitting there talking about "when DBW flips"?

See, I get that telling someone they're scum for having scum mentality in their posts is utter BS. But this is kinda different - he's taking actions that town have no reason to take and scum have every reason to take. That signals his alignment pretty strongly to me.

It looked like he was just using hypothetical situations, "If X happens, then Y." It still looks like nydushermain's mind is still focused on your wagon - now why he went so far to talk about positions in the wagon and only considering when DBW flips scum and not town instead of going all the way if he wanted to take that path, I have no idea.

[Mewtaph]

It still looks like nydushermain's mind is still focused on your wagon

I'm not convinced about this. He's spent as much time talking about who he'd lynch if/when DBW flips than actually trying to kill me.

Hmm, that's probably due to the lack of traction he gained on your wagon. I think he has confidence in your wagon, but not enough confidence that he's going to go around to every active player on the read list and go "hey, look at my case on Accountant, he's looking really scummy right now", but rather, a select few. I think there was a post where he asked Pepcho to vote with him.

Also, I think 188 should answer that last bit.

[Mewtaph]

Why he made his first post concerning DBW in the first place. If you look at the first post he makes on DBW, it looks and feels like a standalone that he'd leave by itself if you didn't vote him straight afterwards.

[Mewtaph]

I also think this is the case because of the confusion he shows in 188, "LOL what?" I really liked how genuine it felt when I read it.

[Mewtaph]

Yes, it could be scum lining up lynches. I still think it looks like he took making a hypothetical too far and it blew up in his face, and no, I'm not arguing that as a standalone that it is townie. The aftermath is what reminds me of a situation I've encountered myself.
That bit feels genuine because it felt like a "LOL what, I'm not lining up lynches at all, you've got me all wrong", the important thing to note here is not that he because said those two words and how I read it, but how it seeps into the rest of his response posts.

[Mewtaph]

The easiest way to understand why I think nydus is town here is to take a look at the game link here. If you can show me how that doesn't apply here, then I'll reconsider on a larger scale, but my head is definitely still in the ballpark of nydus leaning town here.

For your points:

• Maybe. I'll admit that this possibility exists, but for the sake of argument I'll say it isn't. This looks like a hypothetical by nydus blown out of proportion to me, because of how the "no, I'm not lining up lynches, no I'm not even that confident on you being scum" tone I get from his posts. For example, I feel like you skipped over his post 208, when that was a good post to take a step back and think about nydus being possible town.
  
• He's stated multiple times in thread that he's not completely sure of his read on you, this could be an explanation of why it looks like he doesn't care/seems unsure. This is a valid point, he says "w/e because he can still be scum", now I'd prefer for a less pressure filled environment to question him in rather than someone voting him and questioning him at the same time.
  
• Not sure what this is referring to. His read on you? Fine, but he later admits that he has no idea what he's doing.

Either he's a really smart scum at articulating what his underlying thoughts would be if he were town or he

is

town. That's my take on it.

[Mewtaph]

I get that "Mewtaph did this last time and he was town", but you haven't showed me:
a) Why this is exclusive to town - ie. why this is done as town but not done as scum
b) Why you feel it's a consistent pattern enough to give hard townreads on rather than a one off thing.

a) It's not.
b) It's not, I just am already in the mindset of him being town prior to reading it and even as I'm typing here. I'll admit that I'm wrong in saying this is townie by any definition of the word, but for me it doesn't register as scum pings all over the place, I notice the inconsistencies and eyebrow raising posts and I don't think "Wtf lynch this now the scum pings are real", I think "Looks like scum, but I've done that before: why not get clarification first?". Because I've done similar things before/been thought of as scum without legitimately being reached out to, may be why I am thinking nydus of town here. FMPOV if I consider my anecdotal evidence it helps town a lot more to dial it down a bit on the accusations here and see if anything changes.

[Mewtaph]

He's stated multiple times in thread that he's not completely sure of his read on you, this could be an explanation of why it looks like he doesn't care/seems unsure. This is a valid point, he says "w/e because he can still be scum", now I'd prefer for a less pressure filled environment to question him in rather than someone voting him and questioning him at the same time.

I don't buy that his weak on me is read. He's been fairly stubborn about saying that I am scum, but doesn't back it up with actions.

Doesn't the second sentence provide an answer of sorts to your first statement? He doesn't back it up with actions because his read on you is weak. Stubbornness is scummy yes, but it looks like he dropped it in 248, so it's NAI, and if anything, a town indicator. You can decide to not buy that his read on you is weak, and continue pushing him, but I don't see the reasoning of getting the problems you have with nydus sorted out first in a more toned down environment and consider his POV? Okay, so consider this, if nydus is town, will he really be able to sway your mind, or Ramcius' for that matter, if this is the kind of environment he has to defend himself in? No, and that's where I come in and say "stop".

[Mewtaph]

@nydushermain: Need thoughts and reads from you within your next few posts please. Holding off on my own read list until you post yours.

[Mewtaph]

gg guys. I agree the conflict on d1 led to a very easy coast for scum while I was here

[Mewtaph]

My activity levels have been quite screwed lately. At least I know now that I perform a lot better focusing on a single game. If anyone wants to hydra toss me a message, if not I'll try to play when I have a bit more time on my hands - and not over game myself (and consequently flake) next time round.