Mini Normal 1908 - In The Web (Game Over)

[Hikari Link]

VOTE: ChannelDelibird because I don't think you know how to pronounce "Delibird."

[Hikari Link]

Deli-bird. Boom.

Once upon a time, I was inclined to agree. But now, I tend to be of the mind that it is pronounced the same way as "delivered," except with a "B."

[Hikari Link]

Why tf not? He's a slight townread now.

Could you explain that? I'm having trouble grasping your reasoning. You don't approve of putting someone at L-2, but you are fine voting a townread? I'm not saying I'm an expert Mafia player, but in every other game I've played, that's not how things have been done.

[Hikari Link]

Could you explain that? I'm having trouble grasping your reasoning. You don't approve of putting someone at L-2, but you are fine voting a townread? I'm not saying I'm an expert Mafia player, but in every other game I've played, that's not how things have been done.

Oh, okay. That makes much more sense. The wording on that just really confused me.

[Hikari Link]

You broke the quote

Yeah, I'm not sure how that happened. I'm typically quite good with quotes and I honestly don't even remember touching it after I hit the quote button.

[Hikari Link]

Posting a lot yet at the same time, not actually doing a damn thing

I honestly haven't had a chance to make a real post yet. I just got home from class a couple hours ago and told people that I was no longer confused about the thing I was initially confused about. Other than that, I've been rereading to get a grip on the game.

Looking over the BigYoshiFan/MortFeld/Gamma Emerald interaction, I feel like Yoshi has the greatest likelihood of being scum. I feel like even at L-1, a quick-hammer probably wouldn't be super likely from town. Could be he wanted to disavow an unlikely early lynch in order to look town. Or possibly, Gamma and he are scum partners and he was concerned that a quick-lynch would b bad for his team. It's weak, but it's something to consider.

I don't see anything wrong with MortFeld pushing Yoshi on his supposed concerns. It seemed like a valid line of questioning to me.

VOTE: BigYoshiFan

[Hikari Link]

yeah you're scum

I assume you have reasons. Care to share them with the rest of us?

[Hikari Link]

because i don't like how you dumped three people into a cluster and picked out scum and town within them and i don't like the conclusions you reached on any of those 3 slots.

i don't like how after i call you out for junkposting, you immediately engage tryhard mode.

So your claim is that I whipped that post up in 4 minutes because you didn't think I was posting enough? Sorry, but you're mistaken. I'm just a tryhard. It's kinda my thing.

Also, I lumped those three together because it was one of the few legitimate-seeming interactions we've had between players in this game so far.

[Hikari Link]

I have every right to read someone in that interaction as scummy. Yoshi seemed scummy, because he seemed overly concerned about the wagon that probably wasn't actually going anywhere. I disagree that it's a shit vote and it's certainly backed by more evidence than my RVS vote, so it's a better place to have it. That's why it's there. Care to explain what's wrong with my logic?

Also, I've been "junkposting" because, as I said, I've been at school all day. And I think we may have a different opinion about what "obvtowning" means.

[Hikari Link]

Yoshi 45 town

Why does this make Yoshi town in any way?

Your points about him are valid, MortFeld.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

I'm not letting Yoshi off the hook there, because I still feel like his response to the speedwagon was more likely to come from scum than town. I just think a Gamma scum flip strengthens my case against Yoshi.

[Hikari Link]

Yoshi 45 town

Why does this make Yoshi town in any way?

Feels like real paranoia.

Paranoia is inherently town? If he was scum, he'd be worried about you wanting to incriminate him too, wouldn't he? And maybe it's just my scumread on him, but I saw it more as him being "convinced" so that he would have a legitimate reason to call you scum at any point in the future.

[Hikari Link]

Paranoia is inherently town? If he was scum, he'd be worried about you wanting to incriminate him too, wouldn't he?

Yeah. He wouldn't be worried about me being scum, but that's not present in 45.

You don't have to be scum to incriminate him though. I mean, maybe incriminate isn't the right word, but my point stands that being implicated as potential scum in any way isn't ideal for either town or scum.

I don't think being worried about being incriminated by scum it inherently scummy, however page 2 is just way too early for that. "Coincidentally", Titus pointed out 7 posts earlier that Mort was also just looking for things to attack... I just wonder whether actually got two scum right there or it's actually too good to be true.

The two scum being me and Yoshi? That doesn't make sense. Actually this whole post doesn't make sense. What is the relevance of Titus' (correct) observation that I was just looking for things to attack?

Yes, please explain that, MMM. I interpreted your post much differently, but I'm curious to see which interpretation is correct.

[Hikari Link]

I don't think being worried about being incriminated by scum it inherently scummy, however page 2 is just way too early for that. "Coincidentally", Titus pointed out 7 posts earlier that Mort was also just looking for things to attack... I just wonder whether actually got two scum right there or it's actually too good to be true.

The two scum being me and Yoshi? That doesn't make sense. Actually this whole post doesn't make sense. What is the relevance of Titus' (correct) observation that I was just looking for things to attack?

The two scum that I saw would be Yoshi and Titus. I don't think it was wrong for Mort to attack Yoshi when and how he did given that at that phase in the game you do have to do something to cause game progression, Titus seemed really quick to chainsaw and BYF picked up on Titus' defense quickly.

Okay, that makes sense. Being honest, I read that as you still going with your Yoshi & Gamma team, but it makes more sense that you were saying Titus was the other one. I forgot what Chainsawing was, so I just looked it up. I could see that argument for scum Titus.

I think Hikari is town, Transcend

Hikari you misunderstood the first part of my 132. There's a specific towntell that I was saying was not present.

Ah ty for explain MMM.

Wait, can we back up for a second. I'm not sure what towntell you are talking about. Really sorry, but could you please explain once more why you think Yoshi is town?

98 is missing Titus

That's because I don't feel like Titus was part of the interaction proper. The interaction was spawned by the comment Titus made, but she never actually participated in it, as near as I can tell.

[Hikari Link]

VOTE: Hikari Link

I'm not letting Yoshi off the hook there, because I still feel like his response to the speedwagon was more likely to come from scum than town. I just think a Gamma scum flip strengthens my case against Yoshi.

The level of confidence required to make this post honestly cannot yet have been obtained by town.

And yet it is, so here we are. You're making a lot of inaccurate assumptions here about my level of hubris. That bandwagon during RVS was getting big, but short of a grossly incompetent townie, an accidental hammer was very unlikely. Scum hammering and pretending to be inept town seems like it would have been a far more likely scenario to me. And neither side hammering seems like an even more likely scenario. If we accept that the lynch was extremely unlikely to occur and that scum would be most likely to hammer, then an early lynch would arguably have been more favorable for the town.

On the other hand, scum can get towncred for pretending to be scared of a lynch that early on. And, if Gamma truly is Yoshi's partner, Yoshi'd have every reason to be nervous, on the off-chance that an incompetent townie accidentally (or purposely, honestly) hammered there.

tl;dr: Irrespective of Gamma's alignment, Yoshi as town had more to gain from Gamma's death than he had to lose, while Yoshi as scum had more to gain from ending the wagon there.

There are, however, two holes in my thinking that I am aware of.

1. It's possible that Yoshi wouldn't have thought any of the things that I just thought, regardless of his alignment.
2. I've basically set up a scenario that regardless of how Gamma flips if we lynch him, Yoshi looks scummier to me.

I realize the potential role confirmation bias may play in how I interpret Yoshi's actions from here on, but I don't plan to push forward with only this reasoning. I assume that as the game progresses, my scum read may be strengthened or it may be weakened. But at our current stage in the game, these are the best leads I've got (and I don't think they are bad), so I'm pursuing them until I have reason to believe I shouldn't.

Hey, people. I've not played with most of you before. FYI, my username is typically abbreviated to CDB.

and the 'delivered' point is interesting, I will ruminate on it.

Please do. It's something more people should think on.

Actually, as an avid Pokémon fan myself, It's widely known within the community that Pokémon themselves has been horribly inconsistent. Even within canon, many different Pokémon has had many different pronunciations of the same Pokémon. Most of the time, you'd go with any one so long others recognise it. The more common pronunciations of Delibird include "Deh-Lee-Bird", "Dee-Lih-Bird", "Dail-Li-Bird" and "Del-Uh-Bird"

Lastly, sorry this post was so dense. I've always had a tough time being brief, but I've been told in the past that long posts are anti-town because some people won't bother reading them and/or they feel like it's just a method of trying to appear active. I'll try to keep things as short as possible in the future, but I personally prefer to be thorough so that I am not misunderstood. Might just tl;dr at the end of all of my large posts from now on.

[Hikari Link]

tl;dr at the end covering the major points I made. This is for people who don't read long posts. Please read at least that much, though I'd encourage everyone to read the whole thing. Spoiler tags included to make this long post easier to read.

Spoiler: Off Topic Regarding the Pronunciation of Delibird

Actually, as an avid Pokémon fan myself, It's widely known within the community that Pokémon themselves has been horribly inconsistent. Even within canon, many different Pokémon has had many different pronunciations of the same Pokémon. Most of the time, you'd go with any one so long others recognise it. The more common pronunciations of Delibird include "Deh-Lee-Bird", "Dee-Lih-Bird", "Dail-Li-Bird" and "Del-Uh-Bird"

I can understand this perspective, but when I talk about pronunciation, I do so from the perspective of intent. I believe that the only intent that makes sense here is a pronunciation based on the word "delivered."

Spoiler: BigYoshiFan

And so was that.

Is pointing out a useless post really useless? What reasons do you have for your reads. If a person isn't transparent in their thinking, they can't expect to be understood.

I also feel like you're also being really defensive right now, yet you haven't responded to my accusations.

On top of this, I don't feel like there is much from you in the way of scumhunting.

To be clear, I'm not saying "being defensive is scummy" and "defend yourself from me." That would be hypocritical and unfair. I'm saying two things. First, you appear to be being defensive while ignoring my suspicion of you, which seems suspect to me. Second, if you are town (which I'm still not convinced of at all), please scum/townhunt. And I'd also ask that you do it in a more transparent way so that it is clear what you are trying to do.

Spoiler: Transcend

Naw

HL's posts were long drawn out bullshit

I'm admittedly long-winded, and I apologize for that. But I'd rather my thinking be made transparent. I don't like leaving room for misinterpretation in what I say. It makes it easier to understand my thinking, even when it's flawed. On top of that, it gives me less wiggle room to say stuff like "I didn't mean it that way."

That said, in what way are my posts bullshit?

My posts were short sweet and to the point

I'm going to have to disagree with you there.

For example, your assertion that I was posting a lot without saying anything isn't even really true. I had 5 out of the 83 posts when you voted me. Two were during RTS. One was asking for clarification of a vote that I didn't understand. One was acknowledging that I now understood the previous message. The last was an acknowledgment that my quote was bad, to clarify that I understood that a mistake had been made. Do you have something against clarity of communication? Because I happen to believe it's very important.

On top of that, you make a really weak accusation that I went into tryhard mode after you voted me, despite the fact that I posted it a mere 10 minutes after your claim that I was posting a lot without saying much. I wish I could produce a post like that in 10 minutes. I usually spend upwards of an hour on a post, which I'll grant, you have no way of verifying. I've got to read, reread, fact-check, contemplate, and solidify my thoughts. Then I have to carefully select my words in order to remove as much ambiguity from my posts as possible, that way it can be clear to everyone exactly what I'm saying. And don't even get me started on the time I spend on BBCode to try to make things as intelligible as possible. Incidentally, that's why I made the comment regarding my messed up quote. Like I said, I'm pretty code with it. What I forgot about this site is that every now and then, when you click the quote button, the quote just appears messed up. I only even realized it because it happened to me again earlier. I'm pretty sure that's a bug that's been around since 2011 and I'm honestly kind of surprised it still exists.

My point is, even if you question my motives, I like to think that there is very little room for interpretation regarding the content of my words.

As for the Mario read i thought his vote was towny but then read his iso and didn't like some of the posts

Could you please elaborate on this?

Spoiler: MortFeld

Not any strong reason. It does feel like they're trying honestly to interact with me in a way that's not like, 'I need to convince this person of something' or 'I need to manipulate this person' but more 'I want to share my ideas with this person and learn about theirs.'

That's exactly right. In fact, Titus made an excellent post in one of the discussion forums about this very topic. On top of which, strong communication is already something I am deeply interested in. I'm currently studying to be an Industrial/Organizational Psychologist. I won't bore you with all the details, but having clear communication and relying on understanding a plurality of ideas are key components to making an organization successful. Hence my boner for clear communication.

I admit a few of their posts are like, very tryhardy and the Yoshi vote is bad. But it's just a feeling.

I'm an admitted tryhard. I'd be happy to link you to a few of my past games if you don't believe me. Though I warn you, they're from a time when I was an uncooperative, (more) arrogant piece of shit. That's why I scrubbed my wiki page. Didn't really want those games associated with my current brand.

I'm not sure what to tell you if you think my Yoshi vote was bad. I've explained my reasoning to the best of my ability and I stand by it. It certainly wasn't the strongest case ever made, but it wouldn't be, considering there were less than 4 pages of content available at the time. Hell, I'm pleasantly surprised we were even out of RVS at that point.

Spoiler: MarioManiac4

hey guys.
trans/mort/2face are probably town. (If this is the scumteam I will feel incredibly stupid postgame)
If anyone is here I'd be glad to discuss reads this game because I have no scumreads

Could you please explain these reads?

Spoiler: Titus

VOTE: MortFeld

Not liking his responses here. It looks like he's just looking for things to attack.

can you walk me through how you see somebody asking questions and translate that into attacking? I don't understand how anyone could make that leap.

It's the number, quantity, and lack of depth. Like a machine gun.

Your questions here are not attacks. Statement. Foundation. What your searching for.

In what way did they lack depth? Maybe I am projecting my own thought process, but the intent of Mort's line of questioning seemed pretty clear. And you're making it sound like he asked a bunch of unrelated questions to look busy. It was a pretty clear back and forth.

Spoiler: TwoFace

Yeah. He wouldn't be worried about me being scum, but that's not present in 45.

45 doesn't imply he is worried you are scum, it implies he is worried you are trying to find things to make him look bad. something if he was town he shouldn't worry about.

if you interpret somebody asking you questions as they are trying to incriminate you, then yes in my opinion you are worried about them. If you have nothing to hide you should not be bothered by anyone asking you questions, especially when the point of this game is to ask questions.

You know, I've heard this argument several times as I've played Mafia and other deception games and I never quite understood it. Town have extremely legitimate reasons to worry about looking suspicious. People can and are misinterpreted and mislynched. I can't speak for anyone else, but being mislynched or mistrusted is one of the most frustrating things in this game for me, especially in LyLo. It's possible to interpret that a line of questioning is being asked solely for the purpose of setting you up as a fall guy. This is compounded by the fact that townies are 100% certain that they are innocent and they sometimes overestimate how apparent that should be to everybody else.

That said, I generally agree with you and I don't think town should live in fear of that. Especially when it comes to vanilla townies. Not that I'm interpreting Yoshi as either a VT or a power role, I'm just saying in terms of game theory, VTs are expendable as hell and should be willing to jump on a grenade for most power roles. Mislynches can and will happen, there's no avoiding it. If it happens to you, it sucks, but oh well. So I think it's better to be loud and proud about your opinions if you are a member of the town and if you die, have some amount of faith that your team will find a way to turn your death into an advantage. Not everybody has that level of dedication to their team though. Some are just here to play a fun game. And there's nothing wrong with that; it's just not as helpful.

Spoiler: Ircher

Yoshi 45 town

Why does this make Yoshi town in any way?

Your points about him are valid, MortFeld.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

I'm not letting Yoshi off the hook there, because I still feel like his response to the speedwagon was more likely to come from scum than town. I just think a Gamma scum flip strengthens my case against Yoshi.

At this point, I'm pretty sure this slot is town esp. after Transcend's tunnel.

At this point, I'd like to point out that I always have been and always will be overly paranoid of people trying to buddy me. I am always concerned that I'm subject to confirmation bias, so I worry all of my reads are wrong and that everybody who trusts me is Mafia trying to manipulate me. That's a personal issue and I try not to let it throw me off too much, but it can be an issue when I ever survive until LyLo. I'm directing this more at the entire game in general, rather than just you. Your post is just the one that pushed my paranoia over the edge. I acknowledge it's relatively unfounded though.

So, you've called out Transcend for his lacklustered posts. I am trying to determine if your interactions with Transcend are genuine. With Transcend, I don't think posts like he's made so far are out of the ordinary for him. I'm not sure if this is materializing into anything, yet.

why couldn't you have said that before hand? why did you need to know what my experience was?

I feel like if I told you, you might not have given me an answer and discarded it as nonsense. If you only played, say, 1 game with him, then you probably don't have an accurate sense of their play and would give less validity to how you're interacting with Transcend. You have 3 and thensome though.

Not sure why you would think I would avoid answering a question.

I still don't understand what me playing with him has to do with anything. I don't let meta affect my reads. I encourage others to do the same.

I encourage others to avoid the pitfall of failing to note that there can be a large variety of playsyles and perspectives.

I can't agree with this more. Based on your current posts, I have a feeling I'm really going to like you as a player, but I'm also really going to fear that you are going to stab my back. Again, I will try to not let this undue paranoia control me and if anybody notices me being paranoid, please call me out on it.

tl;dr:

1. It seems to me that Yoshi is being defensive against TwoFace while ignoring my accusations and is also not really scumhunting.

2. Transcend has grossly exaggerated the infractions that I've committed that make me scum in his eyes and I'd like to know his reasoning for his reads, particularly on Mario.

3. My emphasis on clear communication is a result of my field of study.

4. My tryhard nature is extremely apparent in any game I've been in on this site. It has nothing to do with my role and everything to do with my playstyle.

5. I don't fully understand Mort's misgivings about my Yoshi vote, because I feel I've sufficiently explained it. If it needs more elaboration, please ask. If it's just a gut thing, please say so.

6. I'd like Mario to explain his reads.

7. TwoFace already covered this in #210, but Mort's line of questioning was valid.

8. Townies have legitimate reason to fear being set up for a mislynch, but they should not let that fear control them.

9. I'm paranoid about people buddying me and that all of my reads are wrong. These things may cause me to react irrationally at points. Please let me know when that seems to be the case.

I'm likely going to be gone for the rest of the day. I've got class soon and I'm in other games, so I'll be focusing on all of that today, for the most part.

[Hikari Link]

(not ignoring anyone, I try not to actually play the game when I'm at work even if I'm reading)

Hikari, do you like playing as town or scum more?

I'll field this quickly as I walk to class.

I love playing town and hate playing scum. I really don't enjoy deceiving people, but I've got no choice in that role. The fun for me is in trying to solve the mystery. That said, I think I play pretty good scum, based on my experience with it in Mafia and other deception games.

[Hikari Link]

God hikari is gonna flip scum i just know it

Because...?

[Hikari Link]

Still doing other things and I won't be back in full force until at least tomorrow, but I've skimmed the thread and just wanted to say a couple things really fast.

TwoFace/Transcend:

Please look at my wall post again. I clearly say at the beginning that I have put a tl;dr version at the end for people who are adverse to wall posts. That said, could you guys please tell me why you refuse to read wall posts? I've always thought it's a pretty anti-town attitude. Not scummy, mind you, I just think it's inherently detrimental to the town not to read everything that everyone says.

Also, you don't really need to read the parts about you, TwoFace. It was me explaining why I feel town members have every right to fear being suspected. Transcend, I'd really appreciate if you read my response to you. I feel I rather adequately dismantled your case against me.

Regarding the Transcend wagon:

I don't like this wagon. Most games I've got at least one townie tunneling me hard. I just set some people off for some reason. It's rarely (if ever) scum who have this reaction. I don't think there was much for Transcend to gain as scum for pushing me as hard as he did for such poor reasons as scum. I feel like his gut just tells him that I'm a dirty scumbag and now it's just a matter of whether or not he will succumb to confirmation bias permanently.

[Hikari Link]

Please look at my wall post again.

nty

So you won't even look at the tl;dr part that covers my 9 main points? It's 14 sentences.

[Hikari Link]

Regarding the Transcend wagon:

I don't like this wagon. Most games I've got at least one townie tunneling me hard. I just set some people off for some reason. It's rarely (if ever) scum who have this reaction. I don't think there was much for Transcend to gain as scum for pushing me as hard as he did for such poor reasons as scum. I feel like his gut just tells him that I'm a dirty scumbag and now it's just a matter of whether or not he will succumb to confirmation bias permanently.

That is... actually not why I'm lynching him.

To be clear, I wasn't presuming anyone was voting him for his interactions with me, I'm saying that his interactions with me are kind of a towntell. At least, to me. And it's why I would suggest not lynching him.

P-Edit: Gamma beat me to the punch.

[Hikari Link]

Oh, my bad then. I'm still keeping the vote for the time being though.

It's a free country. For now. But could you explain what your reasoning is?

[Hikari Link]

okay maybe hikari is town

BUT YOURE NOT GETTING LOCKTOWN STATUS

Anyone who ever gives me locktown status, short of through the effect of power roles, is almost assuredly scum or a fool of the highest calibre. Out of curiosity though, what turned you around?

Oh, my bad then. I'm still keeping the vote for the time being though.

It's a free country. For now. But could you explain what your reasoning is?

I'll explain later - I feel like it would be counter-intuitive if I did it now.

Fair enough. I will try to remember to ask you about this on a fairly regular basis though.

[Hikari Link]

Sounds about right. Like I said, it's a pretty common occurrence for me. Happens every couple games. Usually with people who are completely unfamiliar with me.

[Hikari Link]

Off topic: Oh fuck! I just figured out that quote problem from before. I never fucking knew that highlighting text and hitting the quote button would result in only that text being in a quote! I just highlight things because it helps me read. I thought it was a glitch all this time. I'm a fucking fool!

[Hikari Link]

Could you explain that? I'm having trouble grasping your reasoning. You don't approve of putting someone at L-2, but you are fine voting a townread? I'm not saying I'm an expert Mafia player, but in every other game I've played, that's not how things have been done.

Oh, okay. That makes much more sense. The wording on that just really confused me.

That issue, just to be clear. Where I broke a quote.

If you are reading a post and you highlight part of the post with the cursor, when you hit the quote button, it will only quote that part of the post, rather than the whole post.

[Hikari Link]

@TwoFace: The ADD is fair enough. And I can understand the phone issue. I hope that the spoiler tags help with that a little though.

I don't think the game theory discussion is a function of wallposts though. It's a function of the fact that my response to you was specifically about game theory. Which is why I also said that you didn't have to read my response to you, since the tl;dr bottom-lined it for you.

I agree with you on some points regarding theory and disagree on others. But even if your playstyle is objectively the best (which it may not be), not everyone is going to agree that that's the case. Meaning you need to be prepared to accept alternate playstles if you don't want to mislynch. Whether or not town

should

be worried about being mislynched doesn't help us determine if somebody is scum. That's because there are plenty of town who

do

worry about being mislynched.

[Hikari Link]

disagree but whatever

Even if you disagree, I'd still argue there is some psychological pressure there.I imagine certain power roles wouldn't want to have to claim Day 1 because they got themselves in trouble for looking scummy.

[Hikari Link]

It seems like he's trying to look like a scumhunter, but I don't really see any of the conviction behind the scumhunting.
Weak but w/e

MortFeld or MMM? I'm assuming MortFeld, but if so, why is MMM the best target right now?

[Hikari Link]

I really don't have time for this game today, but I want to come back when I can and try to analyze everything that's been going down.

This isn't a response on the state of this game, I just feel I need to leave this comment for TwoFace.

I know it's a bit on the long side, but I implore you to read it and at least consider it.

I've seen how toxic you can get. I don't blame him at all.

Right and I'm not doing that this game which makes his frustration towards me come off as fake.

Like if I was doing all the things that people say they hated about me, I'd get it but I'm literally not.

I'm not trying to insult you, but I've really got to disagree. You're not being super toxic, but a few of your attitudes could be perceived as toxic and could absolutely drive somebody away.

1. Your implication that different playstyles are scummy.

2. Your apparent unwillingness to acknowledge the legitimacy of other people's

feelings

about the game.

3. Your insistence that you haven't even done anything that would drive people away.

You may feel that you are new and improved (and you probably are), but there is always room for improvement. Some of your attitudes can come across as arrogant and toxic.

I've been in similar positions. Back around 2007-2010, I was a really shitty person. I was a little better by the time I joined this site, 2011, but still an arrogant prick. After I left, I worked to become a better person, and I thought I had. But after learning more about relationships in around 2015, I realized that I was still an asshole, so I kept working at it. Flash forward to now and I'm still a work in progress. How I am now is like night and day from how I was 10 years ago, but I still feel like I have a long way to go. I believe that not being an asshole is a lifetime pursuit; the second you think you aren't an asshole is the second you fail.

Again, this is not an attack on you as a person, TwoFace. It's just something I think you may want to consider. Now I really do need to do other things today.

[Hikari Link]

UNVOTE: Gamma Emerald

My suspicion isn't gone, but I want to reevaluate the game state when I can. Need to see if there was blatant opportunism on the Transcend wagon, if Titus is worthy of consideration, and a few other things.

@BigYoshiFan: If you townread Transcend now, get your vote off of him. Same goes for anybody else still parked on him.

[Hikari Link]

Seriously last post until I've got everything else important for the day done.

I'm not trying to insult you, but I've really got to disagree. You're not being super toxic, but a few of your attitudes could be perceived as toxic and could absolutely drive somebody away.

You are basically saying anyone who pushes on a scum read is toxic. That's terrible logic

No, I'm saying that your policies are poor because they don't allow for context whatsoever. You seem to act as though everything happens in a vacuum, when it does not. Some of the things Transcend did could certainly be considered scummy, but you don't seem to consider the larger perspective of

why

a townie might be motivated to do them.

Your apparent unwillingness to acknowledge the legitimacy of other people's feelings about the game.

I have no clue what you are even referring to with this one.

I'm referring to your comments about townies being worried about looking scummy.

Maybe this will help:
>People don't like losing.
>Being mislynched

feels

like losing to some townies.
>Some townies don't want to be mislynched because it

feels

like they are losing.
>Some townies will avoid being incriminated so that they are not mislynched, because being mislynched is tantamount to loss, in their mind.

Now consider this:
>This is a thought process that some people have.
>You are saying people should not think this way.
> Some people don't like being told how to think.
> You appear to be telling them how to think.
> Those people will not like you because they feel you are telling them how they have to think.

The attitude of being preoccupied with staying alive, rather than trying to help the town, is definitionally anti-town. It's literally putting oneself above the town. However, it's not inherently scummy in that it is not inherently scum-motivated, since town can (and do) often have this motivation. You seem like you are conflating the two things when they should probably not be conflated.

[Hikari Link]

People admonishing TF is gunking up the thread, this is a formal request that you either keep it game related or take it outside the thread.

Goddammit! Last post really was meant to be the last one, but this stood out too much, so I feel like I must respond.

1. If TwoFace were to understand the points that I'm making, then he might not scumread Transcend, which in turn would mean that he might not scumread his replacement.
2. His current attitudes have a strong chance of leading to mislynches, particularly with his power role. This discussion is extremely important.
3. Could we even take it outside of the game? I feel like that would technically be considered discussing an ongoing game.

All that said, I'm not attempting to change his mind. I'd like him to understand the points I'm making so that he'll change his mind of his own volition, but I ultimately can't and won't tell him how to think. To that end, I will continue to clarify any of the points I've made and respond to his responses on the topic when I can. I'm unsubbing from this thread now so I don't get anymore notifications about it until I am free.

[Hikari Link]

I'll try to get back to this game before I go to sleep tonight/tomorrow.

I will say that I'm suspicious of Transcend now. Legitimately looks like he faked replacing out now, since he ended up staying in after somebody else replaced.

[Hikari Link]

lol fuk u

me replacing out and back in should have no bearing on my alignment.

In normal circumstances, I'd agree. But it's suspect to me that you made a show about replacing out and the mod ignored your request, but then replaced somebody else.

Then you said you wanted out with your little poem and the Mod admonished you, but still didn't replace you. Then you decided not to get replaced.

Suuuuuuuper convenient that you made that decision before XnadrojX took you seriously and replaced you. Good thing he didn't replace you before NotTheRealPaul.

[Hikari Link]

I still don't know if I support lynching you today, though. Want to catch up first.

[Hikari Link]

Well, I guess it's about time I start catching up.

[Hikari Link]

If transcend isn't scum, make a convincing case. Outline a bunch of posts or reasons so I can read and evaluate them to see if I agree.

Even if I still believed he was town (which I'm really not convinced of anymore), the read was based primarily on gut and past experiences with similar playstyles. I've regularly been on the receiving end of tunneling by an erratic and irrational townie.

Any comments directed toward me that somehow put blame on me for transcend replacing out or that somehow my play is toxic should not be posted cause 1. It ain't true and 2. It serves no purpose to solving the game and finding scum.

I can't speak for anybody else, but I was not attempting to put blame on you or attack you. I was expressing my opinion on how your behaviors and attitudes could be perceived and why they might be detrimental to victory. I won't bother discussing the game theory or communication anymore though.

[Hikari Link]

Continuing with catching up tomorrow.

[Hikari Link]

I just had a sudden revelation about myself and the way I handle games and my life, so my playstyle is probably about to change drastically. I don't even know how it'll change yet, because I'm still processing it, but I'll catch up and do what I can as soon as I can.

[Hikari Link]

Catching up from the last point that I was fully invested in the game. Just gonna comment on stuff as it comes up.

Also, Hikari, I'm not ignoring your suspicion. I didn't think you wanted a direct response. If you want me to address something, I'm here.

Looking back at it, that's a fair response. What's more, looking at my earlier argument, I against you, I can honestly say I find it pretty weak. I feel like that was my brain performin apophenia due to the general lack of info we had that early in the game.

[Hikari Link]

Oh, my bad then. I'm still keeping the vote for the time being though.

It's a free country. For now. But could you explain what your reasoning is?

I'll explain later - I feel like it would be counter-intuitive if I did it now.

I'm not sure if you've covered this further along, but I don't want to forget it. Is it "later" enough now?

[Hikari Link]

If we're not lynching Transcend, can we lynch Mort and BYF?

I don't know if you answer this later, but why?

[Hikari Link]

Titus+Mort/BYF+GE for early scum team imo

I keep hearing people talk about this post. Can somebody please explain to me why it's so bad? From what I can gather, people are mostly saying it's pre-flip associations, but that honestly doesn't seem that bad to me. I don't know about other people, but I like calling the scum team as soon as I think I see one. I'm rarely (if ever) right, but as long as you don't tunnel that scum team to the exclusion of looking elsewhere, what's the harm?

[Hikari Link]

I just had a sudden revelation about myself and the way I handle games and my life, so my playstyle is probably about to change drastically. I don't even know how it'll change yet, because I'm still processing it, but I'll catch up and do what I can as soon as I can.

Can you share?

I guess I can now that the game ended. This is the post where I had the epiphany, but there were several posts leading up to it. To make a long story short, I realized that I need to relax a little and be less controlling. I also need to be more willing to rely on other people.

[Hikari Link]

Like I said, I'm still trying to figure out exactly what that means in terms of how I conduct myself in general.

[Hikari Link]

damn, so they theory actually could be a reality...

What were you referring to here?

[Hikari Link]

@MMM: Do you happen to have any completed games where somebody has called you an idiot or otherwise insulted your intelligence? This could easily confirm your claim.

[Hikari Link]

With the bit of time I have right now:

like the reasoning behind all of the emotion related to transcend is basically non-existent, like he tunnelled transcend and I'm not really buying that this was because transcend called him an idiot backhandedly. I feel like he may have been seeking a way out of a Transcend wagon he didn't want to stay on.

Being called an idiot wasn't the reason to get on
It was however an amazing reason to stay on afterwards and shit on him for everything
If he wasn't subbed my vote would be parked, even if he's subbed it probably is
No clue what you mean by "didn't want to stay on", I'm perfectly fine with doing so //shrug

Why would your vote stay parked, even if he is subbed?

[Hikari Link]

VOTE: Titus

I'm fine with this wagon for now. Can still get behind Transcend. I know people don't like accusing him of replacing for the wagon on him, but I'm not accusing him of that. I'm saying that I think he was original faking replacing out as a gambit, then actually replaced.

@Titus, others have asked this, but what is your reason for your current Transcend vote? Also, why do you have scum reads on Yoshi and Morth?

[Hikari Link]

In post 729, Hikari Link wrote:
In post 699, MMM wrote:
With the bit of time I have right now:
In post 692, MarioManiac4 wrote:
like the reasoning behind all of the emotion related to transcend is basically non-existent, like he tunnelled transcend and I'm not really buying that this was because transcend called him an idiot backhandedly. I feel like he may have been seeking a way out of a Transcend wagon he didn't want to stay on.
Being called an idiot wasn't the reason to get on
It was however an amazing reason to stay on afterwards and shit on him for everything
If he wasn't subbed my vote would be parked, even if he's subbed it probably is
No clue what you mean by "didn't want to stay on", I'm perfectly fine with doing so //shrug

Why would your vote stay parked, even if he is subbed?
I said probably. The sub has a lot of convincing to do. (if we ever get one)

I think you misunderstand me. I'm asking you why that's the case. Other than insult you, what activity made him

so

scummy that even with a replacement, his slot can't be redeemed.

[Hikari Link]

I understand getting frustrated with Transcend but that slot was town af. I'm not voting it or Titus today.
MMM has been getting progressively townier and I'm not comfortable voting there anymore.
I actually can't see it. Someone needs to make a good case. :p

UNVOTE:

Why aren't you voting either one today? Why are both so town that they are unlynchable?

[Hikari Link]

damn, so they theory actually could be a reality...

What were you referring to here?

The theory they could be scum together

Sorry, you theorized who could be scum together?

[Hikari Link]

Titus did explain her read on me as "his ISO looks like potshots" I believe.

I have a very poor handle on this game compared to the usual and I'm bad at catching up when behind.

The argument seems pretty hypocritical to me. Looking at her ISO, most of her posts look like the same sort of "potshots."

[Hikari Link]

Also, why did she wait until now to replace out if it was for that reason?

That's something I can't answer either, but I can say almost for sure none of the replace-outs were caught scum. (Maybe scum, definitely not caught)

And now it becomes a trust tell... sigh.

It's not a trust tell, it's just NAI.

How can you reconcile these two statements when both of them subbed out when they had a large wagon on them? If they were scum, they were fairly caught. So if you say that they weren't caught scum, it sounds like a trust tell. I'm not trying to misrepresent you, I just want to understand where you are coming from.

[Hikari Link]

it's more like
exhibit a) I say that it's not NAI, you think that I'm saying Titus is town = you say it's bad
exhibit b) I explain that I don't think it's AI = you say it's alright

Even if that was his stance, it's a pretty valid stance. Saying that it's NAI and that makes her town would not be an acceptable stance.
Saying that it's just NAI is. Even saying it's NAI

and

you think she's town for unrelated reasons.

[Hikari Link]

In post 729, Hikari Link wrote:
In post 699, MMM wrote:
With the bit of time I have right now:
In post 692, MarioManiac4 wrote:
like the reasoning behind all of the emotion related to transcend is basically non-existent, like he tunnelled transcend and I'm not really buying that this was because transcend called him an idiot backhandedly. I feel like he may have been seeking a way out of a Transcend wagon he didn't want to stay on.
Being called an idiot wasn't the reason to get on
It was however an amazing reason to stay on afterwards and shit on him for everything
If he wasn't subbed my vote would be parked, even if he's subbed it probably is
No clue what you mean by "didn't want to stay on", I'm perfectly fine with doing so //shrug

Why would your vote stay parked, even if he is subbed?
I said probably. The sub has a lot of convincing to do. (if we ever get one)

I think you misunderstand me. I'm asking you why that's the case. Other than insult you, what activity made him

so

scummy that even with a replacement, his slot can't be redeemed.

When Transcend was still in and I hadn't voted him yet it seemed to me like it could really just be a playstyle thing, but by the time he subbed out he changed literally nothing and just kept spewing what at least seemed to be nonsense the entire time. And I feel like it's deliberate, and hence scum motivated.

Wouldn't that be indicative of his personalty then, not his playstyle or his alignment motivations?

Also, why did she wait until now to replace out if it was for that reason?

That's something I can't answer either, but I can say almost for sure none of the replace-outs were caught scum. (Maybe scum, definitely not caught)

And now it becomes a trust tell... sigh.

It's not a trust tell, it's just NAI.

How can you reconcile these two statements when both of them subbed out when they had a large wagon on them? If they were scum, they were fairly caught. So if you say that they weren't caught scum, it sounds like a trust tell. I'm not trying to misrepresent you, I just want to understand where you are coming from.

Wagons can easily shift over time even if for a few days there are only a couple of people that are being focused on/wagoned. Unless 75% of the town says a person is scum (or there is evidence from a cop/similar), wagons can change, and therefore scum is not caught at all.
Just because there is a large wagon on you, heck even if it's at L-1, does not mean that if you replace out the reasoning HAS to be that you're caught scum.

I feel like we have different definitions of "caught." And you're applying your definition as though everybody feels it is the same definition. For all you know, one or both of them could feel that L-2 is serious enough to be considered caught.

That said, I'm not saying that caught scum necessarily have to replace out because they are caught. They can be caught and they can be scum and they can replace out, but that doesn't me that they replaced out because they were caught scum.

[Hikari Link]

obvtown
{Hikari Link}
{Ircher,

-Grey-

, TwoFace, MortFeld}
{

Tarkus, Titus, ChannelDelibird

}
{BigYoshiFan, Gamma Emerald, MarioManiac4}
{

Transcend

}
obvscum

Am I the only one bothered that I'm at the top of that list? Even above TwoFace.

Spoiler: Regarding Transcend

In post 729, Hikari Link wrote:
In post 699, MMM wrote:
With the bit of time I have right now:
In post 692, MarioManiac4 wrote:
like the reasoning behind all of the emotion related to transcend is basically non-existent, like he tunnelled transcend and I'm not really buying that this was because transcend called him an idiot backhandedly. I feel like he may have been seeking a way out of a Transcend wagon he didn't want to stay on.
Being called an idiot wasn't the reason to get on
It was however an amazing reason to stay on afterwards and shit on him for everything
If he wasn't subbed my vote would be parked, even if he's subbed it probably is
No clue what you mean by "didn't want to stay on", I'm perfectly fine with doing so //shrug

Why would your vote stay parked, even if he is subbed?
I said probably. The sub has a lot of convincing to do. (if we ever get one)

I think you misunderstand me. I'm asking you why that's the case. Other than insult you, what activity made him

so

scummy that even with a replacement, his slot can't be redeemed.

When Transcend was still in and I hadn't voted him yet it seemed to me like it could really just be a playstyle thing, but by the time he subbed out he changed literally nothing and just kept spewing what at least seemed to be nonsense the entire time. And I feel like it's deliberate, and hence scum motivated.

Wouldn't that be indicative of his personalty then, not his playstyle or his alignment motivations?

No I think if he was town he would have at least tried doing SOMETHING, but yet he didn't. Unless he gets banned for being a huge troll or something that's the way my read of his actions is going to stay.

What are you basing that assumption on? Also, please point out the approximate post where he went to obvscum status on your chart.

Spoiler: Regarding Replacing Out

Also, why did she wait until now to replace out if it was for that reason?

That's something I can't answer either, but I can say almost for sure none of the replace-outs were caught scum. (Maybe scum, definitely not caught)

And now it becomes a trust tell... sigh.

It's not a trust tell, it's just NAI.

How can you reconcile these two statements when both of them subbed out when they had a large wagon on them? If they were scum, they were fairly caught. So if you say that they weren't caught scum, it sounds like a trust tell. I'm not trying to misrepresent you, I just want to understand where you are coming from.

Wagons can easily shift over time even if for a few days there are only a couple of people that are being focused on/wagoned. Unless 75% of the town says a person is scum (or there is evidence from a cop/similar), wagons can change, and therefore scum is not caught at all.
Just because there is a large wagon on you, heck even if it's at L-1, does not mean that if you replace out the reasoning HAS to be that you're caught scum.

I feel like we have different definitions of "caught." And you're applying your definition as though everybody feels it is the same definition. For all you know, one or both of them could feel that L-2 is serious enough to be considered caught.

That said, I'm not saying that caught scum necessarily have to replace out because they are caught. They can be caught and they can be scum and they can replace out, but that doesn't me that they replaced out because they were caught scum.

We might have. And yes, I do tend to assume that I am obviously in the right a lot of the time even if it's not really obvious and sometimes even if I'm not right. Perhaps all my viewpoints on the matter of subbing out come from the fact that I have a somewhat petty dislike for giving up until having actually tried everything I could.

[/quote]Again, you're misunderstanding me and your feelings on giving up aren't relevant here, because what I said has nothing to do with giving up.

I'm saying that different people have different ideas of when they are caught. For example, I tend to feel caught as scum when 15%-25% of people suspect me and or when nobody townreads me. So you can't (or at least, shouldn't) apply your definition of caught to them when you don't know when they feel like they are caught.

On top of that, I'm saying that both Titus and Transcend could've considered themselves caught scum, yet still replaced out because they didn't like the attitudes of players in the game. I'm not trying to argue with you here, I'm just pointing out that there can be differences in communication and perspective that can be barriers to understanding somebody's motivations.

[Hikari Link]

Am I the only one bothered that I'm at the top of that list? Even above TwoFace.

I was about to ask why you were top.

And in case my tone wasn't clear, MMM, I'm looking for an explanation.

[Hikari Link]

@TwoFace:

MN 1848. I think one or two scum were on the wagon but a lot of town were too obviously.

I'm SRing Titus because her push on me is very bad and she has continually avoided my prods to expand on it. Similar situation for her Yoshi push.

On top of the push being bad and her never answering for it (or other things), she was pretty much doing exactly what she accused TwoFace of doing: taking "potshots."

[Hikari Link]

@TwoFace:

MN 1848. I think one or two scum were on the wagon but a lot of town were too obviously.

I'm SRing Titus because her push on me is very bad and she has continually avoided my prods to expand on it. Similar situation for her Yoshi push.

On top of the push being bad and her never answering for it (or other things), she was pretty much doing exactly what she accused TwoFace of doing: taking "potshots."

when did she accuse TF of taking potshots

Sorry, I meant you. I don't know why I said TwoFace.

[Hikari Link]

Going too school, I'll poke in when and if I can. I'll try to look at Mort's case for Gamma when I can. Though my initial theory regarding a Gamma/Yoshi scum team flairs up anytime I see posts like 828. I keep worrying that that's just confirmation bias on my part though.

[Hikari Link]

heading to bed. for those who aren't familiar with fitz be prepared for a bunch of these kinds of posts

viewtopic.php?p=9067960#p9067960

I personally hate them for the click/read/back button and then repeat 20/30 more times and would rather direct interactions or at least quoting the entire post instead of providing links but maybe you guys like them. (probably why he and I don't get along. these posts I find incredibly anti town and is usually why I scum read him)

I don't consider that type of posting anti-town at all. I find it extremely pro-town, though I do think writing is a bit better, if you use spoiler tags. Though I think that has more to do with needing to get better at formatting to make his posts more digestible by people of every playstyle. But you've already expressed that you don't like long posts because of your ADD, so I can see why you hold that position.

[Hikari Link]

I'm actually making an official request that you don't even talk to me or mention any thoughts you have about me or anything I've said. Just pretend I don't exsist in this game.

Is that necessary? I mean, I get if you don't want to read what he says and everything, but I know I'd like the opportunity, in case he does flip town.

[Hikari Link]

Inb4 TwoFace is giving his scummate a reason to ignore him

Seems pretty unlikely. Though it's not guaranteed, TwoFace is still most likely town based on his role.

[Hikari Link]

2 people have hiraki as their top town read. seriously wtf am I missing about hiraki?

I'm usually a pretty high town read for a lot of people because I have an extremely pro-town mentality, regardless of my alignment.

Also, there is a player on this site named Hiraki. He's someone different from me, Hikari Link. Just sayin'.

[Hikari Link]

Yes I'm aware of the other player. Only thing I remember from you is the wall post which certainly isn't a reason to town read you.

I'm inclined to disagree. I think it was a pretty good post.

[Hikari Link]

but making a good post isn't AI

If I'm being totally honest (and overconfident), I don't believe anything I ever do is AI, regardless of my role.

[Hikari Link]

Hey, guys, sorry for my general absence from this game. I've just been pretty busy and catching up here has been difficult. Mostly just been skimming recently.

Looking at the Wiki, it seems like the Watcher is generally considered a pretty cheap role as town, but a pretty acceptable role as scum, so I suppose maybe their is something to TwoFace's concerns regarding a fake claim. Of course, he also said that a Mafia Double Voter is pretty uncommon. It could be completely possible that the mod has gone with a setup that's balanced, but full of relatively unused roles. So if TwoFace ever flips scum or havingfitz flips town, we may want to start looking at the other.

For now, I say we let fitz live and see if he can bring us actionable information. Honestly, I kinda just want this day to end so we can get a flip and stop poking around in the dark. Unless somebody has a better idea right now, I say we go with WhemeStar.

UNVOTE: havingfitz
VOTE: WhemeStar

[Hikari Link]

That's fair. I think it would be really cool if the setup was filled with wacky PRs though. Things like Cop, Doc, and Roleblocker are old hat, even for me; and I haven't played for 6 years.

[Hikari Link]

@Mod:

Has ChannelDelibird been prodded? He said his V/LA was ending Sunday, but we haven't heard a peep from him.

[Hikari Link]

Seriously though, guys, I feel like this game is stagnating and getting pretty damn circular. I think we desperately need some flips to start processing information and do some more legitimate scumhunting.

How many people can get behind a WhemeStar wagon? If not, what alternatives do people propose? Gamma?

[Hikari Link]

Fuck it, I can live with that.

UNVOTE: WhemeStar
VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[Hikari Link]

Wanna get on the Wheme train then, Mort? Didn't notice Ircher's vote on him. With us, that makes L-2.

[Hikari Link]

I strongly prefer Wheme over Yoshi and Gamma. I also strongly prefer Fitz over Wheme.

I feel what you are saying, but I'd rather not risk what could be our only informative PR without giving him a chance to deliver results.

UNVOTE: Gamma Emerald
VOTE: WhemeStar

[Hikari Link]

Are you serious? He literally voted me without a case. Just said "I can get behind a Wheme lynch"

So what was my case against you, exactly? Because I notice I'm not getting heat from you for going from you to Gamma back to you.

[Hikari Link]

Mod Note

Prodding Ray Frost. He has (expired on 2017-05-12 10:11:59) to respond to his prod or he will be replaced.

@Mod: For real though, what about ChannelDelibird? He said his V/LA would end Sunday and here it is being Thursday and we haven't heard from him.

[Hikari Link]

nobody is pushing a counter to whemestar and it is making me uncomfortable

I'd like to think it's because I made a good point about ending the day already so we can get some damn info. But in reality, it's probably got more to do with the fact that about half the players are inactive, most that aren't think Wheme is scummy, and scum gain from either bussing or mislynching him, so there's little incentive for a counterwagon to start. And if you want to get really technical, Ircher and Gamma are decent counterwagons, given are lack of activity in this game right now. You should come join the Wheme wagon though.

[Hikari Link]

Are you serious? He literally voted me without a case. Just said "I can get behind a Wheme lynch"

So what was my case against you, exactly? Because I notice I'm not getting heat from you for going from you to Gamma back to you.

I town read you so it's fine

That's some pretty damn specious reasoning right there. So it's okay for somebody you townread to jump on a bad wagon on you? You couldn't just be wrong in your townread?

[Hikari Link]

I'm not saying to hammer him now, but what reason do you have for not? He already claimed VT.

[Hikari Link]

alright i'm taking that as a scumclaim fuck me

I will be hammering Wheme tonight, speak now or forever hold your peace

Is still hold off until ray and CDB slots are figured out

You wanna wait until the replacements come in? I feel like that's easier to solve during the Night. And we don't need the day getting more bloated while we wait. That's just gonna make getting replacements harder than it already is with this replacement-laden game.

[Hikari Link]

VOTE: Me

Alright twoface let's do this

Oh I love when scum give up. Thanks.

No problem bud, how much will you yell at me when I flip town tho

If I flip town*

Did you seriously just correct from the definite statement "when I flip town" to the potential statement "if I flip town"? That sounds suspiciously like a scum admission to me.

[Hikari Link]

ehhh
whemestar is townposting all over the thread and I would rather lynch ircher
can we lynch ircher

Please point out examples.

[Hikari Link]

Why is Trans/Wheme slot scum? Summary plz.

His anti-town play early on (I personally didn't find it scummy, so much as flawed).
The circumstances of him replacing out (I think he flip-flopped several times) and during the times he was allegedly outing, he was posting and his name was never placed in the Replacement thread.
Wheme only questioning his alleged scumread for opportunistic voting, even though his decllared townreads did exactly the same thing.
Wheme self-vote.
Wheme correcting "when I flip scum" to "if I flip scum." Admittedly a weaker reason, but still feels suspect to me.

[Hikari Link]

And this is why somebody should've hammered...

[Hikari Link]

Your last reason isn't even a reason

Perceived slips are legitimate reasons to scumread. Just because you come up with some explanation for the slip, doesn't mean you are telling the truth.

[Hikari Link]

Your last reason isn't even a reason

Perceived slips are legitimate reasons to scumread. Just because you come up with some explanation for the slip, doesn't mean you are telling the truth.

Yeah but it Isn't a slip but k

Let's not play this game. Would you honestly say it was a slip if you were scum?

[Hikari Link]

I don't think Wheme is scum.

And you know what? You might be right. But you also might be wrong. Either way, a flip gives us some info to start working with and it gets this game out of its stagnated state (hopefully).

[Hikari Link]

I'm not going to vote for an info lynch with 5 days remaining. That's dumb.

It's really not. This game has been going nowhere real quick for the last 20 pages or so, players have been inactive as fuck, and we've already ostensibly got two town PRs claimed. I'd rather not force another large wagon and potentially make it go up to 3 so that scum have the pick of the litter. If Wheme is scum, we have one less to take out. If he's town, then we've at least got something to work with. And that's only augmented by the night kill and whatever info fitz brings us tomorrow.

[Hikari Link]

Fine, whatever. Gamma is fine too.

UNVOTE: WhemeStar
VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[Hikari Link]

naked votes aren't scummy.

what else you have other than omgus?

What has PPslot even done other than vote GE, and call Transcend/Wheme town?

Assuming he's ChannelDelibird (which I believe he is), he also placed a shit vote on me, then went V/LA. So not much, honestly.

[Hikari Link]

Because that's what I said.....

Hm. But having similar reads is grounds for a townread?

How am I posting differently?

Having similar reads (especially on a replace) is actually a pretty good way to read someone as town, I feel. If you are reading a game and thinking "this guy's saying all the things I'm thinking" and you are town, then I think there's a good chance the person you are reading is town. Not to say that scum can't replace in and pick a player to blindly sheep.

It might be hard for us to tell which PP is and shouldn't be a towntell, but if he's town, then it's a reasonable stance from his perspective.

[Hikari Link]

I don't do that.

you are going to have to if you want anyone to take you seriously

On this we can agree.

[Hikari Link]

Having similar reads (especially on a replace) is actually a pretty good way to read someone as town, I feel. If you are reading a game and thinking "this guy's saying all the things I'm thinking" and you are town, then I think there's a good chance the person you are reading is town. Not to say that scum can't replace in and pick a player to blindly sheep.

I honestly don't believe PP has read enough of this game to have any sort of reads list though. The fact he posted some shitty list doesn't look good especially when he is refusing to explain his scum read. To me it looks like he is sheeping other people's reads which is not protown

I mean, he's had three hours, I'd be shocked if he did much more than skimming. And it's entirely possible that he just sheeped Mort, since he asked for his reads before posting his garbage list. I just don't care. You wanna lynch him for that? Be my guest. I just want this Day to be over so we can stop faffing about in the dark and start playing some real Mafia.

I don't care about a Day 1 mislynch; it's almost inevitable for town to do so Day 1 and we can't lynch the guy who I think has the highest chance of being scum right now (fitz), so that makes it even more unlikely. We got a lot of discussion out of today (too much more and it'll be harder to reanalyze as we go forward), so I just want to end the day and get the game started.

[Hikari Link]

If wheme isn't getting lynched I've moved pp up to my 2nd.

Considering where the votes (and public sentiment) lie now, it's pretty safe to say he won't be. Can you live with a Gamma lynch though? He seems more viable. Though PP is getting in some hot water and there's mediocre buzz around Ircher. Whatever it is, let's just get to it.

[Hikari Link]

If wheme isn't getting lynched I've moved pp up to my 2nd.

Considering where the votes (and public sentiment) lie now, it's pretty safe to say he won't be. Can you live with a Gamma lynch though? He seems more viable. Though PP is getting in some hot water and there's mediocre buzz around Ircher. Whatever it is, let's just get to it.

No I can't

Yeah, I was afraid you'd say that. PP then? I'll vote if you will.

[Hikari Link]

I count L-1.

TwoFace (one vote for each face)
Hikari Link
MortFeld
MMM
Gamma Emerald (or so it seems)

UNVOTE: Gamma Emerald
VOTE: PenguinPower

[Hikari Link]

Topic got locked for a second. O.O
Anyways, why is that strange?

I thought there was a hammer. I was wrong.

I can see how my post could be misleading. My bad.

Point is, we've got some potential support here, why don't we start getting the votes flowing?

[Hikari Link]

I mean...this is what you said you didn't want....just a few pages ago.

I didn't and honestly still don't. But I'm basically tied to the whims of TwoFace right now. With how inactive this game has been, his two votes are going to be crucial to stop us from meandering around. But the fitz and Wheme wagons are dead and he doesn't have interest in lynching Gamma, so you'll do.

[Hikari Link]

That weak and bull...and TF is still on Wheme expressing his interest on Wheme. Don't use that as a viable excuse.

TwoFace is good with Wheme, but nobody else is, so it's not going to happen. I understand that a lynch takes more than two people. And unfortunately, nobody hammered when they should have, so here we are. You say don't like my reasoning? That's your prerogative. Mine is to end this godawful day.

[Hikari Link]

Again...the fluidity is concerning given we still have a third of the day left.

Who care how much time is left? This game is over 50 fucking pages on day one and we're going in a giant, stagnating circle. I want this game to actually go somewhere, so I'm fine with lynches that get info.

If I were scum, why would I be so desperate to end the day? I'm almost universally heralded as town, so I'm in no danger of getting lynched and I've got a good chance of drawing the Doc on me, which would help my team. All I'd need to do is run out the clock and things would be just peachy for me.

[Hikari Link]

Wheme, if I'm understanding correctly, you are handicapping your town game so that you aren't obvious as scum. I feel like you would be better served elevating your scum game. Better to be an asset to your team than to be a hindrance.

[Hikari Link]

PP, you got nothing to say to my response to you?

[Hikari Link]

Not sure what you're talking about. I responded.

The dude trying to create a truth tell is more concerning right now.

Sorry, it got lost in the shuffle. I'll respond to your response shortly.

Wheme, if I'm understanding correctly, you are handicapping your town game so that you aren't obvious as scum. I feel like you would be better served elevating your scum game. Better to be an asset to your team than to be a hindrance.

Half of the players on this site are doing this. ive been saying this since i got here. Players don't know how to play as scum so they dumb down their town play so they can skate by as scum.

It's why people get mad at me for pushing scummy people and being wrong. They should be mad at the people playing bad but whatever.

I get where you are coming from and it does feel that way sometimes. I might just be more willing to give people the benefit of the doubt that they genuinely think thew way they are playing is good and they are trying to get better. You gotta walk before you can run.

Wheme, if I'm understanding correctly, you are handicapping your town game so that you aren't obvious as scum. I feel like you would be better served elevating your scum game. Better to be an asset to your team than to be a hindrance.

Uhm no thats wrong.

Could you please explain the correct interpretation then?

[Hikari Link]

Again...the fluidity is concerning given we still have a third of the day left.

Who care how much time is left? This game is over 50 fucking pages on day one and we're going in a giant, stagnating circle. I want this game to actually go somewhere, so I'm fine with lynches that get info.

If I were scum, why would I be so desperate to end the day? I'm almost universally heralded as town, so I'm in no danger of getting lynched and I've got a good chance of drawing the Doc on me, which would help my team. All I'd need to do is run out the clock and things would be just peachy for me.

Um, because there have been quite a few replacements, and I don't get the rush to end discussion. Your fluid voting, without regard to alignment, doesn't make sense as either alignment, tbh.

I actually never mentioned anything regarding your second paragraph, so, won't address.

Yeah. And how many of those replacements are going to read the whole game and give an informed opinion on it? Not many, I'd wager. And even fewer as we drag Day 1 of this game on. Ultimately, I think the ending the day is healthier for this game as a whole.

I didn't say you said anything about that, but you certainly seem to have been throwing some shade my way for the past few pages because I want to get the day done.

[Hikari Link]

@Hikrai: Yep. Because it doesn't make sense. But my vote is elsewhere for today, because you aren't nearly the scummiest, so how about you move on and maybe try to solidify a read.

Not particularly interested right now. I'm just gonna keep on sheeping the big wagon today and see where the chips fall. I've got a solid read that I want to lynch, but we can't do it until at least Day 2 or 3 (fitz). So let's get to the point where we can either prove or disprove his claim.

[Hikari Link]

@Hikrai: Yep. Because it doesn't make sense. But my vote is elsewhere for today, because you aren't nearly the scummiest, so how about you move on and maybe try to solidify a read.

Not particularly interested right now. I'm just gonna keep on sheeping the big wagon today and see where the chips fall. I've got a solid read that I want to lynch, but we can't do it until at least Day 2 or 3 (fitz). So let's get to the point where we can either prove or disprove his claim.

I can actually get behind that...doesn't mean you should be shotgunning the D1 lynch though.

You've got experience with this game. I know you know that Day 1 is usually a wash. Could we nail scum? Sure. Are we likely to? Not at all. We're speculating to the nth degree at this point and our Double Voter has it out for people who play a really anti-town game, regardless of whether or not they are likely to be town. I can't be fucked to give two fucks about who we lynch at this point, because it's all meaningless and built on a foundation of ignorance, misinformation, and falsehoods. I'm sorry, but I just want Day 1 over so that hopefully we can get some semblance of a real game going.

[Hikari Link]

I mean, I don't necessarily agree, but I understand.

That's okay, not everybody has to agree on everything all the times. As long as I was able to clearly convey my viewpoint, I'm satisfied.

[Hikari Link]

UNVOTE:

UNVOTE:

This is a most unfortunate turn of events.

Hikari im TR you but idk why and now I'm not so Townreading you so much

Because...?

[Hikari Link]

You seem eager to end the day

So that hurts your townread on me because...?

[Hikari Link]

I honestly am having trouble interpreting that last post, but I'm going to assume you asked me if I do this as town in my other games.

I can't really answer that question. I haven't played Mafia seriously in 6 years. And you saw me at the end of Shaziro Mafia (the only game I've completed since starting back up again). I'm not too sure what the hell I'm doing right now. I'm trying new things. I'm experimenting with perfecting my playstyle and doing what feels right. Both my head and my heart tell me that we're wasting time right now. I've said that multiple times and I'v explained why Day 2 is full of so many more options.

Please explain what I could possibly have to gain as scum by sheeping pretty much any popular wagon, when I could get so much more towncred by just maintaining a slow, methodical pace or lurking for a few more days. Like I said, I seemed to be almost everybody's top townread (above even TwoFace). Why throw that away as scum?

[Hikari Link]

We are lynching PP because despite how bad Wheme is, I can see both his and Transcend's play as coming from town, ever so slightly.

Anyone up for lynching Ircher yet?

Not particularly, but if people are behind it, let's do it. If not, maybe you could join one of the current wagons?

[Hikari Link]

Well, if I switch over, that make 4. L-3. Though I doubt we'll get TF on this one, so I feel like it's pretty much a non-starter.

UNVOTE: PenguinPower
VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[Hikari Link]

Sigh.
If nobody is lynching BYF with me, and nobody else lynches PP, then count my vote on Wheme.

See, this is the sort of meandering I've been trying to avoid. Pretty much everyody has been saying some combination of PP, Wheme, and Gamma, with an additional name thrown in here or there. Most people aren't even giving reasons why (or it seems they are using reasoning from forever ago).

Everybody, please, list your top 3 lynch candidates. We can start narrowing it down more from there.

[Hikari Link]

Hikari, who are your top 3

Sigh.
If nobody is lynching BYF with me, and nobody else lynches PP, then count my vote on Wheme.

See, this is the sort of meandering I've been trying to avoid. Pretty much everyody has been saying some combination of PP, Wheme, and Gamma, with an additional name thrown in here or there. Most people aren't even giving reasons why (or it seems they are using reasoning from forever ago).

Everybody, please, list your top 3 lynch candidates. We can start narrowing it down more from there.

I don't like repeating myself.

my top lynch candidates are known already

You see this right here? This isn't helpful. Everybody doesn't remember your lynch pools off the top of their heads. Please just restate it for the ease of everybody so that we've got all the pools clumped together.

@Wheme: You remember that part where I said I don't really care? More or less holds true. I like the top thee wagons that I mentioned earlier best though, because I think town has a better shot at accuracy this early through consensus.

My Top 3:

1.

PenguinPower

's slot has always bothered me the most. Might be a tinge of OMGUS there, because it feels like the slot has always been throwing a bit of shade my way.

2.

WhemeStar

(that's you) have a shaky track record too. Some of the stuff you and your predecessor have pulled seems so blatantly bad that it's hard to imagine it coming from scum. But it's not inconceivable.

3.

Gamma Emerald

has never fully sit right with me. I feel like even though he's more active than before, it's more as a result of being called out. His activity just feels manufactured to me. But I worry about being subject to early confirmation bias.

Both WhemeStar's and PenguinPower's slots have been eerily consistent over their replacements. I'd expect a little bit more in terms of variance, given that they are different players. Overall, I'm not in love with any of them for a Day 1 lynch, because I prefer fitz. But I acknowledge lynching him without giving him a chance to prove his claim is the height of hubris.