OPEN 687: JUNGLE OLIGARCHY (GAME OVER)

[RadiantCowbells]

well if you can't shoot radiantcowbells why even take a shot

[RadiantCowbells]

realeo unvote

I actually didn't plan around a no kill here but that makes this game actually not virtually impossible to win

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm not saying that Dunnstral is town.

I'm saying that there are 3 town alive. You may be one of them and I think that you are in fact one of them. It will take more to win this game than just lynching scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like keep in mind that if you're town there is literally only one other town in the remaining players.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm town. Hellfire missile was blatantly town but again the majority of the pushing on him was from scum

we lynch for mafia today I think. If we fail to hit mafia, werewolves can't take a shot. if we correctly lynch mafia we can still force werewolves not to shoot.

[RadiantCowbells]

we have 3 people alive and 3 mafia makes the game very difficult for werewolves.

Alright here's what's going to happen.

Werewolves, if we don't hit mafia and you shoot tonight, you lose flat out.
If you do hit mafia and you shoot tonight, we're going to let mafia hardclaim and give them the win.
So you're not shooting.

[RadiantCowbells]

@Realeo, if you think that Dunn is mafia who are his mafia partners?

[RadiantCowbells]

Pedit:

2 not 1.

1 scum in the remaining non-RC players.

[RadiantCowbells]

town.

I don't think that KMD is mafia!scum. I don't think that Realeo is mafia!scum.
There is almost certainly at least 1, possibly 2 werewolves in {kmd, realeo, kmd4390} given that they did not shoot last night.
I'm assuming they did not shoot because either 1) they didn't want to make it obvious to mafia who they were or 2) they knew they didn't want to shoot town
but if one of them were in that pool they could have been pretty sure there was mafia in the pool and would most likely have shot for them.

That leaves Dunn, BTD6, Vedith, Havingfitz which contains at least 2 mafia and maybe a werewolf

[RadiantCowbells]

realeo is obviously town to the point that scum might have put one of their own in with him under the assumption he'd auto-eat the nightkill

[RadiantCowbells]

3-2-2 wouldn't be a mafia win yet

[RadiantCowbells]

it would actually have been a shit move I think. maybe scum figured that out on their own

[RadiantCowbells]

dunnstral is very probably scum

[RadiantCowbells]

lol vedith

[RadiantCowbells]

okay I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the remaining town is NOT in btd6/vedith/fitz/dunnstral

[RadiantCowbells]

maybe btd6 actually. like he's terrible but there's some points that read like bad town rather than opportunistic scum.

Vedith/Dunnstral hard reads like a scumteam though.

[RadiantCowbells]

I want to lynch Vedith because I'm slightly more sure that he's scum and he's more likely to try to talk whatever scumteam he's on into doing stupid shit that will force us to throw the game for the other faction

Realeo if you really, really want to lynch Dunn I can go for that but I think Vedith is a better lynch.

[RadiantCowbells]

Yeah he did, then like a page later he randomly jumped onto Hiraki. Don't think he expected Dunn to gain momentum.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like he votes Dunn at the end of the post, reluctantly. Immediately in his next post he starts questioning Hiraki (the biggest wagon of the time.) Then he goes and votes Hiraki without saying anything more about Dunn.

That's a very, very hard partner tell and I'm not sure why you're reading it as a reason to see them as not scumpartners?

[RadiantCowbells]

If you're town I don't care. I will turn around and lynch your ass.

You vote with me and Realeo on Vedith/Dunnstral or you will die trying.

And make no mistake both scumteams discussed my entrance in night.

[RadiantCowbells]

Oh and if you're scum unaligned with Vedith/Dunn scumfucks then you aren't playing to your own wincon.
Like you have yourself said that Vedith/Dunn are both scumfucks. How, if you are town who thinks that I'm mafia, are you expecting to get me lynched today when Realeo who is obvtown is trying to lynch outside of me?
You are not playing like town plays here. it's palpable how stupid it is to be in a game with 5 scum alive and it's killing my drive. I don't see any of that in you.
I don't care if you're werewolf or mafia, you vote with us or we turn around and lynch you. If {vedith/dunn} flip werewolf then you could potentially be town and I will have this discussion with you.

[RadiantCowbells]

make no mistake if you get me lynched I will make absolutely sure whichever team you are on loses. You will get autolynched tomorrow if you're town, and I will make sure town throws for whichever faction you're not on if you're scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

if your play is not the play of scum with Vedith/Dunnstral who realizes that I'm going to fuck you guys over then your play is the play of someone who doesn't deserve to win, simple as that.

[RadiantCowbells]

I am attempting to lynch Mafia. Vedith/Dunnstral are obviously 2/3 of the mafia given that they've got horrible associations and have never been on the shooting block.

LOOK AT THIS POST.

This is NOT the post of a townie. This is the post of a mafia scum-fuck who doesn't like being called a spade.

You were in Timeshift. you cannot pretend to not know what my town play looks like.

Say one more word about me being scum as any alignment and I vote you and check out of this game and if you're town that's 100% on you.

[RadiantCowbells]

This game forces me to take control because the faction numbers are currently 3/2/3.

Vote Vedith/dunnstral, if they don't flip mafia you can turn on me tomorrow.

I don't necessarily think you're scum with them.

[RadiantCowbells]

You're agreeing that Realeo is town, correct?
You're agreeing that my team has no motivation to bus if I'm mafia, correct?

If Realeo decides that he's not lynching me today, then you can't lynch me today if I'm actually mafia.
whereas if I'm not scum you will find it very easy because Vedith/Dunn are going to pile on and the other scumteam won't defend me.

This doesn't necessarily feel like a scum play because you're too blatantly tying yourselves to scum. I think you could very easily be werewolf who feels threatened and perhaps thinks that I'm mafia but you're fucking wrong.
vote vedith/dunn. I don't feel like having a temper tantrum but I will do it if that's what this game takes

[RadiantCowbells]

...why does mafia!RC submit my own name?

like it doesn't even make sense because mafia would want to NOT submit my own name to prove that I'm mafia so I can be lynched tomorrow.

[RadiantCowbells]

Why do you think hellfire is mafia even though he's been on the list twice

[RadiantCowbells]

Alright let's all hold up I still think that Dunn/Vedith is really likely to be a thing but Comm suddenly rushing the vote onto Dunn and making weird threats has sketched me out.

[RadiantCowbells]

I wouldn't be surprised if BTD is a wolf.

Why isn't BTD6 mafia?

[RadiantCowbells]

Realeo, do you agree with me that Comm's behaviour is sketchy AF?

He seems very convinced that I'm going to be in the Mafia pool when that's not something I would do, to the point of preemptively making excuses for it.
He's trying to leash werewolf shot onto me on the grounds that Dunn might be ANYTHING BUT MAFIA, when like if I caught other faction scum then good for me.
And that way of defending BTD6 by saying he's wolf and not mafia is just terrible.

If there's Mafia in the shot pool it's CommKnight straight up.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like there's no reason to think that BTD6 is wolf fmpov and that feels like he's looking for a reason to put his buddy out of the lynchpool.

And make no mistake Commknight is capable of going ham as fuck as scum. This reminds me a lot of Civilization actually.

Like his play doesn't seem like he'd be paired with both Vedith/Dunnstral, but what if Dunn is a wolfy and he's scum with Vedith and BTD6?

[RadiantCowbells]

I have not read any of his predecessors, just his own play. I can go through if you like but he's not becoming not scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

The thing with Vedith is he is simply being consistent? You can't really say Vedith is scummy for changinv vote from Dunnstral to Hiraku when he already explain that the mafia {Dunn,Hiraku,BTD}

I can go through if you like but he's not becoming not scum.

Firescreamer is quite crucial to read. He interacts a lot.

No, that was just my explanation for why he would be buddies with them.

Vedith like straight up reeks scum a la Hawk in the game that you modded. He doesn't flip town. I can't guarantee that he's mafia scum but he doesn't flip town.

[RadiantCowbells]

If I try to play the long game here scum will win. There's 2 scumteams that add up to a majority that have each had days to take control of the town as a collective.
I have to play like I'm playing now. I don't have the option of playing this any other way. If I slow down or relent one scumteam, almost certainly mafia, will rush a lynch through, probably on me.
I don't really get to sit and go through ISOs and get 100% certain reads until I have enough control over the gamestate to be able to do so safely.

Realeo, agree to not vote me today. Trust me. The only way you're going to see me towntell properly is if you give me the space to do so and scum are going to do their best not to let that happen.

I am town. I am like really sure that you are town. Work with me, please.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like I am busy with IRL shit I do not want to play bullet time mafia. If I were mafia there are so many plays that I would make before I make this one.
This game by its nature requires me to play exactly what I'm doing. You say scum motivation I say shutting down anyone elses ability to mobilize against me.
There is scum motivation in that but in virtually any game, and especially this one, there is also town motivation. This is how I play.

[RadiantCowbells]

I can convince WW's it's in their best interest to off RC for both town and themselves.

You still haven't addressed why I would be putting my neck on the line as mafia and you seem pretty convinced that it's going to happen!

[RadiantCowbells]

Of course I'm convinced. I know you RC and this is exactly the kinda stunt you'd pull in a LYLO situation (for pretty much all factions). Mafia stand a very good chance of winning this if they cause one mislynch and then there's the fact you're STILL 5/7 chance of being scum. With my TR on Realeo, that doesn't leave much room for you being town, now does it?

Hold on a second.

Realeo is town.

From your own point of view, you should be town, no?

Why am I not, y'know, 6/7 chance of being scum? Or have you forgotten that you're supposed to put yourself in the townpool?

[RadiantCowbells]

I mean that's potentially a misinterpretation of your phrasing but the point still stands.

[RadiantCowbells]

Alright, I am 100% convinced that Commknight is Mafia!scum.

VOTE: Commknight

[RadiantCowbells]

If I get lynched you lynch him tomorrow, you get the werewolves to claim, and you give them the win. Unless Comm flips werewolf in which case let mafia have the win since they deserve it far more than any team he's on does.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't think so.

I think that the mafia team is CommKnight, Vedith, BTD6.

I think that the werewolves are Dunnstral and Fitz.

I think that Kmd4390, myself, and you are town.

[RadiantCowbells]

Commknight's play reads like he's mafia who saw the opportunity to get a quick win by lynching Dunnstral who isn't part of his team.

There's no way, no way in hell, commknight's fixation that I will for some reason be a part of the group of 3 chosen by mafia comes from anything besides mafia.

[RadiantCowbells]

Is it convenient?

Dunnstral doesn't make sense with Kmd4390.

You don't make sense in any pairing besides CommKnight and VEdith.

I think there's a non-zero chance that Dunnstral is just town and its Fitz/Kmd4390 but I'm not going to deal with that situation because the werewolves aren't my problem until you mafia fucks get put into line.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like you say convenient but

okay I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the remaining town is NOT in btd6/vedith/fitz/dunnstral

With you claiming scum, why would Kmd4390 not be my next townread?

[RadiantCowbells]

'flailing'

use more buzzwords.
use more ate.

you do not win this game from here on out.

[RadiantCowbells]

What the fuck is werewolf doing in Hiraki's wagon?

Who was the counterwagon? DUNNSTRAL.

[RadiantCowbells]

Werewolves are bad for being on that wagon. I don't think that the werewolves thought this game through as much as you seem to think they did though the no kill suggests otherwise.

Realize, Realeo, that Commknight is going to prevent us from lynching mafia regardless of whether he is mafia. Lynching a werewolf today is far from the worst thing that we could do.

Do you agree with me that Commknight's play doesn't really add up and the direction that it doesn't add up points to him being mafia?

[RadiantCowbells]

Neither faction are informed. How do you know both factions didn't think they were lynching the other faction?

You're reading too far into the wrong sorts of details. Focus on Commknight's play. Do you agree with how my read has progressed on him?

[RadiantCowbells]

This flailing is too much to bypass.

Posture

I will NOT let RC win as mafia and gloat about how good his play was when it was shit and I read it easily within a few posts of replacing in.

Posture

This is some OMGUS level shit even for you RC.

OMGUS implies that I'm town.

Like this is RC flailing because he doesn't have control of the game like he wants to have as scum.

Scum talking point that he repeats but doesn't fully understand. Realeo townreads me so if I were scum I've done enough and I have all the control I need.

How convenient that your other TR is now RC's TR.

Did he address how that actually lined up perfectly with my previously stated reads?
Does his push on me feel like it's a genuine progression or does it feel like he feels like he has to push on me?

With my TR on Realeo, that doesn't leave much room for you being town, now does it?

No one as town says stuff like this.

I wouldn't be surprised if BTD is a wolf.

Why's BTD a wolf?

Hunch and because of the sudden look in his direction now that I'm looking at RC.

Wait Realeo was the one who broached the subject. So basically he just said that BTD6 was wolf (aka should not lynch today) because hunch. then lied about the rest of the reasoning. k.

This is the post of a mafia scum-fuck who doesn't like being called a spade.

Posture

Also I think that him repeatedly calling me mafia points to him being mafia more than it points to him being werewolf.

I

do not believe

he believes that I'm scum at this juncture.

That points to him being mafia.

[RadiantCowbells]

Just saying, Realeo makes a good point. There's no way all 3 mafia + 2 WW's lynched Hiraki. Making RC that much more confirmed scum since the 3rd townie helped mislynch.

They didn't. You're mafia.

[RadiantCowbells]

Mafia thought Hiraki was werewolf, I'm sure of it.

[RadiantCowbells]

Because Commknight trying to push the lynch onto Dunnstral specifically strongly suggests that they are not scumbuddies with the way things panned out.

I believe that Comm is mafia beyond doubt. Vedith/Dunn can be werewolves together I guess? and then the remaining mafia is like fitz?

But I don't feel like Commknight would have made a point of hard jumping onto Dunnstral specifically if both of those choices were not mafia. I think he would have just lay back and let things go how they would.

That jump onto Dunn reads like he was trying to make sure that the wagon went onto Dunnstral over Vedith.

[RadiantCowbells]

Posture posture posture buzzword flail. Your scum play is bad.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like I felt like Commknight's opening happened for a reason. If both of my lynch choices were not!mafia I don't think that, regardless of how discussion went in scumchat, they would have jumped on me like that.

I was trying to get Vedith lynched, Commknight chainsawed me, wasn't working, jumped ship to try to lynch Dunnstral, who is not!Mafia, then when I figured out what was going on he jumped back onto me.

Is there anything you don't understand about my read on Commknight's progression?

[RadiantCowbells]

This game forces me to take control because the faction numbers are currently 3/2/3.

Vote Vedith/dunnstral, if they don't flip mafia you can turn on me tomorrow.

I don't necessarily think you're scum with them.

How about one better.

VOTE: Dunn

^ If Dunn does NOT flip mafia, go ahead and kill RC tonight wolves. I can guarantee he flips red.

Like this post just hard reads like mafia who sees the opportunity to get a cheeky win by framing me.

[RadiantCowbells]

Also, Commknight has seen me as town in this game.
My play in it is extremely similar to my play here. Commknight scumreading me here was weird from the get go and I said that at the time, though I was still caught on Vedith/Dunnstral.

It's also worth noting that I'm also distinctly different from Civilization mafia in this game. Civilization I won by just deathtunneling mislynches and never giving reasons.
I've given my reads on most living slots, I've given reasons, my focus in this game has been on making sure everyone understands why my reads are what they are.

I can't afford to not get a lynch through this game.

[RadiantCowbells]

I am willing to lynch Vedith or BTD6 as well. I am sorry but I can't support Dunnstral at this time.

Fitz/KMD/Dunn/Realeo

If a single town does not vote Comm they will not get lynched. Scum aren't going to bus when I've already called out all 3 of them.
They're going to block together hard and come down on me and hope that town misreads the situation or that werewolves help them.

Regardless of which of you are werewolves and which of you are town, there's no way to a win that's not through voting with me today.

[RadiantCowbells]

Why does he sound so sure that the mafia are putting me on the hit list
Why does he randomly call BTD6 'wolf' and then lie about his reasons for writing them out of the lynchpool?
Why does his play read so much like cheeky scum when, as werewolf, he wouldn't be approaching a win from that play?
Why is he trying so hard to leash the werewolf shot if he controls it?

[RadiantCowbells]

And that for the record is Commknight realizing he has played a shitty scumgame.

[RadiantCowbells]

No one in this game who isn't mafia is going to read me as mafia. You might get werewolves to hop on board because they're scared of me, especially if Dunn is WW, but lol.

[RadiantCowbells]

Dude my questions are fine and if you don't see it the problem is with you not me.

[RadiantCowbells]

I replaced Hellfire missile.

[RadiantCowbells]

Which of those four things do you disagree that he did?

[RadiantCowbells]

Commknight is currently correctly arguing against 3 mafia being on Hiraki. because he wasn't.

Why are you ignoring the obvious answer that the werewolves thought that Hiraki was mafia?

[RadiantCowbells]

Dunn just stop you're not mafia I don't care if you're town or werewolf. work with me today.

I will do BTD6 as well.

[RadiantCowbells]

I thought GE aka Fitz was most likely to be werewolf with Dunnstral.

[RadiantCowbells]

Okay, let's do this another way.
Let's lynch BTD6.
If he flips mafia, you know I'm legit.
He flips werewolf or town, I will accept that we've lost and stop defending myself.

I am very very sure of myself on that 3 right now.

I am NOT certain that KMD is town.

[RadiantCowbells]

Do you think that's going to make me scared that he's actually not!mafia you tool

as long as you are on the table you are my #1. But if you're not happening I will lynch btd6.

[RadiantCowbells]

Ok. So Dunnstral's game plane is to bus GE the fuck for the remainder of the game, right?

What gives away that Dunnstral is ultimate bussing GE?

I mean, Dunn could be town. Could be KMD/Fitz.
I think it's at least PLAUSIBLE that Dunn would jump in and vote someone claiming to think that they're gamma, especially when the lynches are already sort of set in stone at the moment.

[RadiantCowbells]

I mean I would assume he doesn't plan to continue bussing?
Sure, maybe it's KMD.
Maybe one of my scum conjectures is wrong.

Comm doesn't flip town though. Vedith doesn't flip town though.

I will lynch BTD6 because I don't see a choice but I would be far more comfortable not lynching them.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like we see this game very differently.
I bluntly don't give a shit about working out werewolves vs town right now because everyone who is not mafia is working towards shared interests.

[RadiantCowbells]

Either way, we can't afford any infighting. If you're absolutely not going onto Comm then I will vote BTD6.

[RadiantCowbells]

alright.

VOTE: BTD6

[RadiantCowbells]

there aren't 3 werewolves.

[RadiantCowbells]

Okay I think you may have been right realeo

[RadiantCowbells]

REMINDER:

WEREWOLVES IF YOU SHOOT TONIGHT WE WILL GAME THROW FOR MAFIA. YOU DO NOT SHOOT OR WE MAKE SURE YOU LOSE.

[RadiantCowbells]

And to be clear: this isn't gamethrowing in a literal sense. Kingmaking is a thing. Town cannot win if you shoot town tonight so we can only kingmake your opposition

I'm using the word as shorthand but that doesn't mean that's what I'm literally referring to.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think that my being town is self evident.

[RadiantCowbells]

Just because the mafia claims to think that I'm werewolf doesn't make me werewolf.

Just stop.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like I understand what you're saying but we don't encourage werewolves to shoot tonight, period. fullstop. I guarantee you at least one wolfy thinks that I'm mafia because my username makes me obligatory scum.

Don't start telling the wolves that we will let them shoot because they will shoot me to get me out of the way or shoot you and try to pin it on me.

[RadiantCowbells]

If you're coming up to that line of reasoning that means you're going to catch up to where I am now.

We force Werewolves not to shoot when we're not lynching them the previous day under threat of kingsmaking to mafia.
We leash Mafia's shot pool when we're not lynching them the previous day under threat of kingsmaking to mafia.

Both scum factions have the potential to win if town mislynches so you give both scum factions a choice between a 0% winrate and a legitimate, fair chance to win by attempting to fool town.

This is how we win this game from this point onward. We take turns bullying scumteams. No one benefits from trying to screw town because we'll give the win to the opposition.

Everyone has a fair chance to win without trying to screw town.

[RadiantCowbells]

If either faction was completely unable to win by going along with my plan then they would simply not do it and try to break down town as best as possible.

Both scumteams are able to win by going along with the plan and we're not going to let them win if they don't: so everyone is motivated to toe the line.

[RadiantCowbells]

If you weren't mafia you wouldn't be explaining it to me.

[RadiantCowbells]

Hey I understand that you have a stick up your ass and you feel the need to prove that Kim Possible is really not all that by lynching me here. I get that. I've seen this before.
This isn't anything new to me. You're not special at all, you haven't ascended to the highest heights of human accomplishment by committing to calling me scum until one day I flip scum.

As it happens the actual mafia are too scared to not support the BTD6 lynch en masse and reveal themselves so they're bussing and repositioning for tomorrow.

Take a day off and lynch BTD6 with us and we can come back to this tomorrow. kay?

[RadiantCowbells]

And Fitz: the wagon isn't going anywhere else.

If you're town, do your scumhunting after the flip and after we know whether the werewolves played ball. At this points it's pointless.

[RadiantCowbells]

There are a LOT of people simply avoiding the thread right now.

I wonder how many of them are waiting to see if Comm's push on me will take off.

[RadiantCowbells]

Commknight don't you get it. It's the name.

RadiantCowbells.

The words shine into the dark recesses of the abyss, the unholy name like a cleansing fire scouring hope from the mortal and werewolf forces that stood arrayed against me.
Blood drained from their faces and courage fled their hearts as they heard the spoken name of the trueborn mafia terror that they faced.
What chance did they really have against RadiantCowbells, lyncher of cop innos, he who had won functional autoloss and some of the most most townsided games the site had ever seen.
When Bins saw him enter the arena she alone knew what horrors lay in store for any whom would oppose him.

[RadiantCowbells]

Commknight just in case you're town I want you to say

I am 100% sure that RadiantCowbells is scum this game and if he's actually town then I agree that I'm a total idiot and shouldn't vote him in any future games.

[RadiantCowbells]

Say it or stop pushing on me.

[RadiantCowbells]

The way I am acting is perfectly fine. If I didn't come in guns blazing town wouldn't have taken the initiative and gotten control of the lynch here.

There was a time when I played exactly when I do now where I was considered unlynchable. Even in games where my reads were absolute trash tier I was still the priority #1 nightkill every night because no one was ever going to push on me. Same reason I did well as scum: I towntell amazingly and plan for the future.

I'm still basically untouchable in newbies or with secret alts. So when you cry about my playstyle being why you scumread me when my playstyle is unlynchable without all the burden of proficiency and ridiculous paranoia that the RC name comes tied to, you're not just dead wrong you're like flamboyantly dead wrong.

[RadiantCowbells]

I really, really hope you're town here.

[RadiantCowbells]

I read myself as aligned with the Posties.

[RadiantCowbells]

In a very cancerous game.

[RadiantCowbells]

ehh if this isn't mafia we just lose

[RadiantCowbells]

Flip! Flip! Flip! Flip! Flip! Flip!

I have literally never seen a town-aligned player make this post before.

[RadiantCowbells]

We can force 2 town 1 mafia 1 werewolf day phase.

[RadiantCowbells]

If town lynch the werewolf Mafia has fair odds of winning by fooling town. that's our endgame here.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm ngl the Flip Flip Flip thing pinged me enough that I feel like this is just not gonna flip mafia and that you're actually mafia with Vedith + fitz/comm

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: Vedithch

I'm confident Vedith is scum but I'm not sure what scumteam he belongs to.
I could see him as werewolves with Dunn>Comm>Fitz>KMD or Mafia with Comm>Dunn>Fitz but today is the last day we'll have the luxury of making a lynch without knowing what faction it'll flip.
@Realeo I followed you on BTD6 yesterday follow me today.

[RadiantCowbells]

Comm because of your play in GIF's game I have given you an insane amount of benefit of the doubt and I'm running out of leash that I'm willing to give you. We can lynch whoever we want today. That person is going to be Vedith because they're to my current sensibilities probably werewolf and give more information about the remainder of the day than any other lynch. You can decide to trust me and lynch them if you're town. You can also decide that there's no good reason to fight my will if I'm scum because I have no motivation to lynch town as either faction right now.

Dunn can only be werewolves with KMD/Vedith or mafia with Vedith. I do not believe fitz/dunn is possible, I don't believe you/dunn is possible.
I also think that if KMD is wolfy his partner is going to be you close to 100% of the time so that lynch doesn't interest me right now, and he's also one of the 3 people I'm mulling over for last town.

Vedith goes. Non-negotiable.

[RadiantCowbells]

@Dunn: if you're town then yes Comm is scum. So is Vedith. Keep in mind that we have 4 scum alive at this point in the game.
There's still no town majority and we can't afford to split the votes.

I am doing my best to give you the benefit of the doubt as well considering that Vedith is the one person I think you're credibly aligned with and you're trying to start a second wagon.

If you're scum and we are forced into kingmaker there is no one in this game I would give the win to over you unless it turned out you deliberately fucked town over. If you're scum just bus.

[RadiantCowbells]

Werewolf is a better lynch because if we lynch mafia we have no good way of threatening the werewolves to not shoot since the last mafiosi would claim under pressure tomorrow anyway.
Vedith I believe is werewolf given how quickly he jumped onto BTD6 but I could also see him as mafia with CommKnight and his flip would be fantastically informative for that reason.
If Vedith isn't werewolf and you're town then lynching Comm is probably hitting mafia anyway. If Vedith is werewolf then

Tge other thing is that I have a fairly strong idea of what every slot in the game stands alignment wise but I could easily see Vedith as both factions and with huge sets of people.

If we go into a lynch or lose without a Vedith flip the game is going to be way, way harder than it needs to be.

[RadiantCowbells]

Let me make this clear to whoever's town.
Before I replaced into this game, you lynched exactly 0 scum. Why is that?

Because scum wormed their way into the discussion and made it impossible to get lynches on scum through because no one was decisive enough to force something to happen.
I have yet to hear an argument predicated on Vedith town. I have heard people give cases for other people and I've heard people try to slow the game down.

Vote him. There's no reason to do anything else today.

[RadiantCowbells]

Oh and KMD if I was werewolf I would have shot Commknight last night every single time.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm here. I read yesterday's stuff. A little lost in all the replacements to be honest, but I'd guess on a vedith/comm mafia team and radiant/havingfitz wolf team with realeo and dunn for town. I want to ISO BTD before I commit to anything though.

Actually I do have a question for you KMD.
If you think that the wolves are myself and Fitz, why were there two consecutive no kills with neither of us in the kill list?

[RadiantCowbells]

I am assuming that the only reason most people (read- not me) as scum would no kill in this setup is to obfuscate the alignments of people in the kill list.
Last night obviously werewolves would NK.
I'd argue that there WAS a reason to no kill the night before if you weren't confident in who the mafia was, because you'd get another shot at it: but I sincerely doubt that werewolves thought that through.

Do you think that Vedith has any real chance of being town here?

[RadiantCowbells]

I thought it was pretty widely accepted that it didn't make sense for scum to kill last night...?

Saving this.

Anyway, we're lynching Vedith.

[RadiantCowbells]

Actually no.

Why would it be 'pretty widely accepted' that it didn't make sense for scum to kill last night?

It was strongly discouraged because I threatened to gamethrow on behalf of mafia if they did so but that doesn't equate to it not making sense, that's actually super niche.
That feels like the kind of thing you would say if you hadn't read the thread whatsoever but your partner said 'no, we/the werewolves are probably not going to kill tonight.'

Like the only reason it would be discouraged is because we threatened to let the mafia claim and take the win. Otherwise giving themselves the win if mafia are lynched or the opportunity to not kill and not end the game yet if town get lynched is much, much better then facing two more chances at getting lynched today.

If you're town you really need to go through this reasoning because this made me basically write you off as potentially town.

[RadiantCowbells]

And bluntly you're bad but not this bad. CommKnight I could believe would be town and think that I was scum here. I don't hold a phenomenally high evaluation of your play but I've been obvtown since I replaced in.

[RadiantCowbells]

And bluntly you're bad but not this bad. CommKnight I could believe would be town and think that I was scum here. I don't hold a phenomenally high evaluation of your play but I've been obvtown since I replaced in.

And don't interpret me as saying that you're bad in a general sense unless you are actually town here. I'm not picking a fight. But this is nothing like the Aneninen game and I find it really, really weird that you would be misreading me unless you felt like it was necessary for your win condition to try to get me lynched. Especially when you called me both alignments.

[RadiantCowbells]

If I take a stance on who the remaining townie is before it's absolutely necessary it gives us extremely little.
I trust my reads more than Realeo but I also trust his reads enough to let him deal with the endgame if I end up dead.
Taking unnecessary stances before then will make scum much less likely to bus and potentially if I get everything right scum will just team up and screw town over.

You're in the same pool as Dunnstral, which used to contain kmd, but I have a definite pick as to which of you two is town.

As of tomorrow scum cannot try to screw over town without screwing themselves over too and I'll be a lot more helpful with regards to what my reads are.

[RadiantCowbells]

Also I'm un-writing off the possibility of kmd/dunnstral as of now.

[RadiantCowbells]

Okay so KMD you have claimed to agree that Vedith is scum. Let's lynch him and play 20 questions after I've seen the flip.

[RadiantCowbells]

Theoretically the mafia factions want to lynch each other but the difficulty in getting votes onto Vedith suggests that scum feel too threatened by town to play rationally right now.

[RadiantCowbells]

gtfo

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: RC

I'm out. peace realeo enjoy the loss.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like I don't even care that you're trying to fight my reads but when you're calling me scum and acting like hot shit when your reads are demonstrably absolute shit you deserve to lose.
No matter who the last townie is you're by far the worst town currently alive and you're trying to play town reader with the worst set of reads I've ever seen.

@scum kill Realeo tonight and give the last town kingmaker.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like I want to think that you're probably werewolf with Vedith and that's why you refuse to let the wagon go through but I just don't think that you're that good.

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: Dunnstral

if this is anything but werewolf please put realeo in the kill list and werewolves please shoot him tonight.

[RadiantCowbells]

Okay, so what's the team compositions?

Dunn/Fitz mafia, Realeo/KMD werewolves?

[RadiantCowbells]

Make that VEDITH/fitz mafia.

[RadiantCowbells]

I wouldn't expect him to be mafia given that he derailed to vote BTD6 with pretty universal control over the wagon.

Yeah, I guess it would be more likely to be

Realeo/Vedith werewolf
Dunn/Fitz? or KMD? mafia

[RadiantCowbells]

UNVOTE:

[RadiantCowbells]

Yeah if Realeo's scum Dunn is town here 100% of the time.

Like even if you're scum Dunn would definitely be town

[RadiantCowbells]

I was town. And my reads are 100% right.

I hate this. You're L-1.

@kmd....I'm not voting you based on the amount of posting you've done...I'm voting you because I think you're a WW.. Your last post that I had quoted just struck a nerve with me and didn't make sense. Regardless of your alignment I hope your rl workload lightens up.

It will in roughly 22 years when I retire.

_____________

I still want to lynch Vedith, not dunn.

Radiant, me being mafia makes no sense because I was widely town read early on and appeared on a kill list or two. I'd have to be playing a good scum game and then risk throwing it all away by eating a NK. If you scum read me, it only makes sense for me to be wolf.

I'm back today and tomorrow if anyone has questions.

Hey, I do agree with this for the record.
Not the being townread part but that you're not mafia.
I do think you're wolf though

[RadiantCowbells]

Never said I believed it, I'm just trying to fit Realeo on a scumteam. It doesn't quite pan out for me.

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: dunn

If this is town this is on realeo 100%

I don't feel like losing tomorrow because your reads are shit. If this flips anything but we you shut the Fuck up and sheep me tomorrow.

[RadiantCowbells]

Commknight

if you are mafia I want you to hardclaim and we will not lynch you today and if we have the opportunity to kingmake we'll give you the win.
If we end up lynching wrong because I'm making bad assumptions about your alignment then you will lose as well.

[RadiantCowbells]

And Realeo? don't fuck with my lynches.

[RadiantCowbells]

if comm is mafia then we lynch Fitz and the remaining werewolf could be basically any of the remaining slots
if comm is town then we lynch Kmd and vedith/fitz are mafia/werewolf. I would strongly lean fitz werewolf vedith mafia because vedith/dunn looked kind of like a bus yesterday and I still think vedith as werewolf would be trying to make kills

I am 100% sure that commknight is not werewolf at this junction.

[RadiantCowbells]

Comm I have way less information than I wanted to have today because we didn't lynch Vedith. I actually strongly believe that Vedith is last mafia but if you're mafia I would want to know because that would make Kmd my best candidate for last town and Fitz/Vedith the likely werewolf composition.

I am not voting for you today and I do believe that you are town but if you're not you help both of us by claiming.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think Vedith and Fitz make more sense for mafia if you're not because neither of them ever showed up in the kill list. By associatives Vedith super makes sense with Fitz so that would be my first choice for mafia.

If you're concerned about the possibility of me and Fitz I can lynch Fitz as well but I think that he might be mafia.

[RadiantCowbells]

Erm. Vedith super makes sense with Dunnstral.

[RadiantCowbells]

Right now I think it's

Werewolves: Fitz & KMD
Mafia: Vedith
Town: Me, Realeo, You

Thing is that if werewolves are actually Realeo/Vedith, which would make sense, then mafia would definitely be Fitz over KMD

[RadiantCowbells]

If Vedith is mafia, do you still think Realeo is werewolf?

[RadiantCowbells]

Idk I'm scared to lynch Vedith. There's a reason I really wanted to lynch him yesterday.

[RadiantCowbells]

If Realeo is scum I'd say he's 100% scum with Vedith.

[RadiantCowbells]

Okay hold on I want to dig realeo/kmd

[RadiantCowbells]

I really don't think Realeo is scum here man.

[RadiantCowbells]

I mean. With the caveat that if he's scum with Vedith his play would make sense. But I don't see why other scum would play in the way that he is.
He feels like town that is just being really fucking obtuse than he feels like scum, and I don't think if he weren't scum with Vedith that he would avoid that wagon.

[RadiantCowbells]

And just barring associatives Realeo reads as really town to me still. I feel way more confident that the remaining scumteam is something like Kmd/Fitz or Kmd/Vedith.

[RadiantCowbells]

So I realize that if you're mafia that you would probably have figured out that it's autolose if you out so you wouldn't answer honestly.
If you are absolutely sure Vedith is not mafia I am willing to follow you and not hold it against you in LyLo.

I am avoiding it because I am concerned that he may be mafia with Dunnstral and no other reason.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like you seem to believe that Kmd might be mafia but I don't think that's at all likely.

1) He was one of the heavily townread people several times when he was put on the kill list.
2) He doesn't really make sense associative wise with Dunnstral.
3) Something in the way he said that he was clearly not mafia but we could think he was werewolf felt legit, that he's town or wolf.

I don't think that Kmd's town and that makes him the safest pick for werewolf today in my eyes.

I totally agree: Vedith is never town here. But he's my strongest pick for mafia at the moment.

[RadiantCowbells]

Alright here's what we're going to do.

Vedith

If you haven't hardclaimed mafia in the next 24 hours I am lynching you.

[RadiantCowbells]

Okay, that's not mafia reaction.

VOTE: Vedith

[RadiantCowbells]

Well if Vedith is mafia then we can't lynch werewolves today without his vote and since he's voting defensively rather than trying to lynch werewolf we have to assume he's werewolf.

[RadiantCowbells]

I strongly disagree, however, with your assertion that Fitz doesn't make sense as mafia.

[RadiantCowbells]

No shit I read the whole game when I replaced?

[RadiantCowbells]

I disagree with your assertion that Dunn's push on Fitz excludes the possibility of him being mafia. I know for a fact Dunn hard buses and as mafia in this setup it's probably a strong play to bus exactly 1 of your teammates.

You lynched Dunnstral and he flipped mafia and not werewolf. don't blame me for your crap.

that's a yes.

[RadiantCowbells]

You've defended Vedith for 3 consecutive day phases and never given a reason. I don't think you're scum but at the same time I understand why Comm thinks you are.

Stop defending Vedith and force him to claim.

[RadiantCowbells]

Realeo your reads are terrible. I'm through with you: you can follow me or you can lose.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like I can't fucking wait to see what dead thread has to say about you fucking me over for the last 3 day phases.

No fuck you if you're town I don't care what you have to say.

[RadiantCowbells]

You haven't listened to me this entire game. I do not want to win the game if you're town.

[RadiantCowbells]

I kept asking you question. I showed participation to cross check your read. It's not my issue that you're not playing along.

In D4, I take the imitative to follow you.
In D5, you follow me

So it's the right time to has a two way discourse in D6.

What the fuck no I tried to lynch Vedith on D4 as well but you hard prevented it

[RadiantCowbells]

You are claiming a townread on the sole person I have been calling lock scum since I replaced in. You got your pet Dunnstral lynch. I am super, this-calibre-of-read-has-never-been-wrong-ever confident in Vedith being scum of some sort, the kind that well over 99% of the site isn't self aware enough to have. I am not lynching elsewhere unless he claims mafia today.

@Vedith are you not werewolf? I don't have that answer because you were lynched neither of the two preceding day phases.
If you claim mafia I can help you to understand why I'm town but as long as I don't know what faction you are you are priority #1.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like we get past today? what happens in lylo.

If you get to Comm/You/Vedith endgame, who are you going to hammer?

[RadiantCowbells]

Like I don't even understand where your reads are at.

I'm assuming you think Commknight is mafia?
If Vedith and Fitz are town, that leaves myself and KMD to be werewolves, and I'm not scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

My pitch is that regardless of whether or not I was werewolf I wanted to lynch scum on D4 so my vedith read would always be my top scumread and I am one of the best scumhunters on site.

That's what you're getting.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm town. If you're in fact mafia you're doing it wrong.

[RadiantCowbells]

And Realeo you can't compare both of us compromising from our primary lynches to me voting someone I wasn't even sure was scum. Those aren't even close.

[RadiantCowbells]

Yeah I'm just going to 'open up'. That's not how I play mafia and you've seen enough of me to know it. Vedith is one of my top reads which is pure gut, nothing to point to whatsoever.

[RadiantCowbells]

UNVOTE:

Reaction felt mafiay enough that I don't really want to lynch it anymore

[RadiantCowbells]

there's not really any triumphant saves any more from me because of how much bullshit I have to go through to get townread. every game is such a slog

[RadiantCowbells]

And I'm not WW...which I think will be proven if kmd is ever lynched.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you're saying that Kmd is werewolf?

[RadiantCowbells]

UNVOTE:

Reaction felt mafiay enough that I don't really want to lynch it anymore

Are you suggesting that Vedith is commiting double bus?

Yes, that's precisely what I'm saying.
When he voted BTD6 the lynch was basically irrelevant and when he did so what he did was call me werewolf while not really saying anything about BTD6. That's very bussy.
Then Dunn/Vedith both like sorta crossvoted and the lynch was definitely going between the two of them so it makes complete sense that he would bus again.

I don't think that he was happy about it but the Dunn/Vedith associatives have been super strong since the start of the game.

That said: Fitz being willing to vote KMD strongly suggests that I'm wrong about something here.

[RadiantCowbells]

I would really like the last mafia to claim.

[RadiantCowbells]

If you're mafia and you're not Vedith then Vedith is 100% werewolf and we're not going to be able to lynch him today without your claim.

[RadiantCowbells]

I have zero motivation to explain things to you so you can figure it out yourself.

[RadiantCowbells]

Scum don't not interact with scumpartners.

[RadiantCowbells]

Realeo is not mafia.
Kmd is super super long shot mafia but really don't think so.
Commknight could still be mafia. I think it's less likely but it's possible.
Fitz is like ehh I could see it.
Vedith everything works out.

That said if Vedith is mafia then unless I'm wrong about Comm the werewolves are Kmd/Fitz. And I could see them having been crossvoting yesterday and they haven't actually pushed each other today so it's still possible but
I'm feeling like Vedith is werewolf and one of his long time defenders (you or fitz) is the other werewolf atm.

[RadiantCowbells]

I've flip flopped but I think Vedith's currently play is more WW indicative than anything else because he's essentially asking me to get another wagon going but if he was mafia he really needs to lynch werewolves.
Whereas WW can lynch anything that's not them and win the day phase so he'd be fine with having me push someone else and sheeping it if it's not his buddy.
Dunnstral clearly correctly had me as town based on their play around me and I think Vedith would have followed that read at least to the point of not autovoting me in this day phase.

I also think it's sort of obvious in general that I'm town and I bluntly think that you're bad enough to make that mistake as town but I question whether Vedith is.

I note that besides you two everyone else in game is treating me like I'm at least potentially town and am a strong townread from KMD/Comm (correct me if I'm wrong)

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm wondering if KMD might actually be mafia who just went super ballsy in terms of putting themselves into the kill pool, but there's no way they'd ever claim.

[RadiantCowbells]

If we had lynched Vedith yesterday like I wanted to, we would basically just win the game here.
If he's werewolf, we'd have 2 chances at lynching werewolves today.

If he was mafia, I would have never touched Dunnstral today and we'd have a clear picture that werewolves are in the rest of you, most likely kmd/fitz distancing excessively but possibly something weird that I haven't specifically looked at.

I decided that in the end lynching Vedith was too big of a risk because I thought there was a decent enough chance that he was mafia and you would deathtunnel me or Dunnstral if he ended up flipping mafia, which as it happened would have just lead to a loss. So we're basically fucked now in terms of associatives in the remaining scum and you're making it impossible to pressure Vedith enough to get a claim from the slot.

There is something that always bothers me.

Why take Hellfire missile out of the kill list (and replace me with Flubber and Realeo) but not kmd.

If you think that I'm mafia the #1 play today would be to sheep the hell out of me because I would be the only one dealing with today from an informed perspective.
This question is utterly irrelevant in terms of determining if I'm a werewolf because I wouldn't control the kill list. Hellfire was removed because he was no longer a top townread but he was still obvtown.

[RadiantCowbells]

If you think that Comm is mafia, it's possible that he was thrown in
A point against KMD being mafia is that I doubt they fully switched the pool while keeping KMD because if he switched into double werewolves he was autodead, and single werewolf was very likely to die.

Okay Kmd. What I remembered was you saying that we had to work together, not that specific line. I did not go back and verify what your precise thoughts were.

If Vedith is werewolf, who do you think his buddy is?

[RadiantCowbells]

What's your read on Realeo and who would/could he be scum with?
Do you think there's a possibility of Comm being Werewolf?

[RadiantCowbells]

Since you have no solid townreads I'm assuming you see at least some scumteam possibilities involving those two.

[RadiantCowbells]

I thought you literally just said that his post towards me was something that you would consider not looking like town

[RadiantCowbells]

No fuck you if you're town I don't care what you have to say.

Then you deserve to lose.

Can we not do this? There's still a chance you're both town and if that's the case we need you two on the same page pretty desperately.

That being said, realeo's post quoted above doesn't sound like town talking to hypo town.

I'm confused as fuck because I don't have a single solid town read.

I actually think the wolves might be havingfitz/radiant or havingfitz/realeo. Mafia I'm thinking vedith or comm.

From where I'm standing you claiming to not have townreads then to have no specific scumteam thoughts on Realeo and not having really thought through Comm much is weird at best.
If you're town, can I get a full readslist and clarifications on what your reads are and what you're thinking for scumteams?

[RadiantCowbells]

If neither of KMD or RC is werewolf, how do you explain nightkill of Dave and RC switching with you, Commknight?

Realeo, why would this matter?

[RadiantCowbells]

Please don't do a Titus thing where you assume that you could correctly predict faction's night actions. You have no idea what either faction was thinking at night.

[RadiantCowbells]

Okay if the conclusion is that I'm town then do whatever you want.

[RadiantCowbells]

Well Vedith isn't mafia at the very least

[RadiantCowbells]

Honestly I was using really strong rhetoric to see if I could coax a claim from Vedith.

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: Vedith

[RadiantCowbells]

Wait realeo kmd really?

[RadiantCowbells]

you just got fucking quickhammered and you're still callling me scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

w/e

kmd was objectively scummy as shit but Realeo played well. I really didn't think he was scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

if you're not!werewolf then I would assume that vedith was actually werewolf

but you and realeo both naked voting read as a quickhammer to me

[RadiantCowbells]

like I still think you're werewolf being dumb

but if you're really not!werewolf and you feel this sure that i'm scum then lol

[RadiantCowbells]

ftr this setup is basically unwinnable for werewolves so very well done fitz.

[RadiantCowbells]

also I just want to say that i had btd6/vedith/dunn pinned as mafia since the first day phase that I was active for.

I don't know why everyone was having so much trouble connecting those dots, I thought it was pretty obvious

[RadiantCowbells]

I was ready to CC him anyway for the record

I was going to say that I was trying to fish a claim so I would have confirmed werewolf scum.

Also my slot looks a lot more like fellow mafia than Vedith's to the untrained eye.

[RadiantCowbells]

you don't give me nearly the credit that I deserve.

[RadiantCowbells]

you essentially can't win as werewolves after you lose a teammate.
the faction is extremely weak. picking {group of 3} for the nightkills is almost as strong as having the actual nightkill, barring the fact that you can't holster it, and you have to not only survive but correctly lynch/kill 2 mafia to be able to win the game.
Without having daytalk which weakens your day game, and having less people than the mafia which weakens your daygame relatively even more because you don't control as many votes.

I don't expect to see another werewolf win in this setup before it gets taken down for being imbalanced.

[RadiantCowbells]

granted the pick 1 of 3 mechanic does make it easier to find mafia than werewolves but I'd say it also weakens werewolves a lot too because if someone townread keeps not getting shot well

[RadiantCowbells]

You're correct: mafia doesn't win by claiming.