Micro 746: The Deco Murders - Game Over!

[Sunlit Diamond]

VOTE: TywinL

Because I'm wearing an "I drink and I know things" t-shirt.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I was thinking more along the lines of newbie-friendly themed game to me.

VOTE: Raya36

For being the only person here who I have played with in the past.

We sure do love spreading the votes around, don't we?

Absolutely!

VOTE: TywinL

Because I'm wearing an "I drink and I know things" t-shirt.

Tyrion is a disgrace to House Lannister.

Your face is a disgrace to House Lannister!

[Sunlit Diamond]

Because 1) I explained my thoughts on the situation and I'd like to see what Virjarada has to say before I move any further down that road; 2) because currently I am on a wagon with Acidphoenix and that might provide good scumhunting information once he responds (and acid responds, now that I think about it) 3) Moving my vote all over the place will make scumhunting for me harder; 4) because a wagon with one of the people on it that victim is not that helpful for scumhunting, and 5) if what I say about Vij is logical, that I don't really need to move my vote because everyone else will now at least start seriously considering Vij's actions. That's what needs to happen, not just form a sudden wagon to attack Vij.

You're on an RVS wagon that you started. Unless you're converting that vote to a serious scum vote (in which case, why?), I'm not following your logic here.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Tywin, why are you reading Raya as town?

Inferno: there is a difference, albeit a narrow one, between scummy behavior and anti-town behavior. Is it fair to say that when you said Vij's self-vote was scummy, you actually meant it was anti-town?

Vij: I'm curious about your take on Inferno v Tywin, given the entire thing is based on your guilt or lack thereof.

Acid: Why did you debate over who to vote for in RVS?

[Sunlit Diamond]

Inferno: there is a difference, albeit a narrow one, between scummy behavior and anti-town behavior. Is it fair to say that when you said Vij's self-vote was scummy, you actually meant it was anti-town?

To explain this since I just realized that difference may exist only in my head. For me, "scummy behavior" comes with an implicit accusation of scum alignment. Anti-town, however, means poor play at odds with town win conditions, and could come from town or scum.

For the record I think Tywin's riding you kind of hard, but your reactions aren't helping your case. Some clarification would help me sort my alignment reads.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Re: Sunlit Diamond

I don't agree with what he said in 36, specifically the point about Inferno being on an RVS wagon that he started. If it's RVS and a vote on someone is pure randomness, the wagon forms if and when someone else adds a second vote. In this case, the started of the wagon would then be Acid, for voting me in 17. Had Inferno voted me at some point later on with some reason or a valid scum read, it would be a different story. That said, saying that Inferno started the wagon at this point is a lie and I'm now scum reading Sunlit for it.

First person on wagon = person who started wagon. Not a lie. Statement of fact.

Odd that you would blow it out so much though.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Not in my eyes.


Clarification, I agree with you on first person starting the wagon, I don't agree with that in an RVS situation.

A difference of opinion does not justify the level of falsehood you accused me of. Why the overreaction?

[Sunlit Diamond]

Not in my eyes.


Clarification, I agree with you on first person starting the wagon, I don't agree with that in an RVS situation.

A difference of opinion does not justify the level of falsehood you accused me of. Why the overreaction?

One problem with that there post...I'm not overreacting. You are.

If you mean I'm responding to something you said about me? Yeah, I s'pose so. I don't see any harm in getting clarification.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Inferno: If you believe that public knowledge of mafia theory renders said theory invalid...why rely on it so heavily?

Tywin, can you clarify what you hoped to gain/what you hoped town would gain from your 'reaction test'? You seem to still be scum-reading Inferno, whereas I am getting super earnest town vibes, so clearly some wires got crossed somewhere, yeah?

[Sunlit Diamond]

Please don't give me a giant wall.

Alternative suggestion: Don't respond to Tywin. Let it sit for a day or so (RL or phase, your choice) and throw wall posts at someone else for a while.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Please don't give me a giant wall.

Required.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Oh FFS.

Mod, can you please hide that behind a collapsible thingy, or remove it entirely?

Sorry for multi-post, forgot to preview and make sure I was using the right tags. >_<

[Sunlit Diamond]

>Inferno laughs because the idea that someone would LIE about a scumread to just try to get info is stupid and calls for a policy lynch On the basis of LyAL, because you were lying about the whole idea that I was scum

LyAL applies to players who knowingly tell falsehoods that fuck up town's chances (Fake claims and the like.) with no verifiable reason for doing so, and are subsequently caught in the act. It does not apply to hypothetical scenarios (see newbie 1813 for a hypo-peek strategy entirely based on town players "lying" that will probably make your brain break) or statements of alignment. How could it? They're hypothetical and opinion based.

[Sunlit Diamond]

(the above is my take on LyAL. Take it as black and white law and I will give you an e-wedgie.)

[Sunlit Diamond]

That's an interesting way to look at it. My thinking is that town shouldn't lie, because town (being town) has nothing to lie about. Sure, ton doesn't want to claim power roles often, but that's not lying, it's retaining knowledge. So if someone is lying about things like scumreads , that seems pretty scummy (not anti-town, SCUMMY) to me.

But is that taking things too far?

You're taking things too far. A piece of meta advice: when you go into an argument with the level of black and white thinking you've displayed so far, you alienate people. This is damaging because it means other players will not want to follow you on your reads. Whether you are scum or town, this makes your chances of helping your team...pretty damn slim.


To shift back to the actual game:

What do you think of Raya?

[Sunlit Diamond]

Spoiler: Sunlit Diamond & Gorny Posts

Re: Sunlit Diamond

I don't agree with what he said in 36, specifically the point about Inferno being on an RVS wagon that he started. If it's RVS and a vote on someone is pure randomness, the wagon forms if and when someone else adds a second vote. In this case, the started of the wagon would then be Acid, for voting me in 17. Had Inferno voted me at some point later on with some reason or a valid scum read, it would be a different story. That said, saying that Inferno started the wagon at this point is a lie and I'm now scum reading Sunlit for it.

First person on wagon = person who started wagon. Not a lie. Statement of fact.

Odd that you would blow it out so much though.

Re: Sunlit Diamond

I don't agree with what he said in 36, specifically the point about Inferno being on an RVS wagon that he started. If it's RVS and a vote on someone is pure randomness, the wagon forms if and when someone else adds a second vote. In this case, the started of the wagon would then be Acid, for voting me in 17. Had Inferno voted me at some point later on with some reason or a valid scum read, it would be a different story. That said, saying that Inferno started the wagon at this point is a lie and I'm now scum reading Sunlit for it.

First person on wagon = person who started wagon. Not a lie. Statement of fact.

Odd that you would blow it out so much though.

Not in my eyes.

Re: Sunlit Diamond

I don't agree with what he said in 36, specifically the point about Inferno being on an RVS wagon that he started. If it's RVS and a vote on someone is pure randomness, the wagon forms if and when someone else adds a second vote. In this case, the started of the wagon would then be Acid, for voting me in 17. Had Inferno voted me at some point later on with some reason or a valid scum read, it would be a different story. That said, saying that Inferno started the wagon at this point is a lie and I'm now scum reading Sunlit for it.

First person on wagon = person who started wagon. Not a lie. Statement of fact.

Odd that you would blow it out so much though.

Not in my eyes.

Clarification, I agree with you on first person starting the wagon, I don't agree with that in an RVS situation.

Not in my eyes.


Clarification, I agree with you on first person starting the wagon, I don't agree with that in an RVS situation.

A difference of opinion does not justify the level of falsehood you accused me of. Why the overreaction?

Not in my eyes.


Clarification, I agree with you on first person starting the wagon, I don't agree with that in an RVS situation.

A difference of opinion does not justify the level of falsehood you accused me of. Why the overreaction?

One problem with that there post...I'm not overreacting. You are.

Not in my eyes.


Clarification, I agree with you on first person starting the wagon, I don't agree with that in an RVS situation.

A difference of opinion does not justify the level of falsehood you accused me of. Why the overreaction?

One problem with that there post...I'm not overreacting. You are.

If you mean I'm responding to something you said about me? Yeah, I s'pose so. I don't see any harm in getting clarification.

What do you want clarified? I was as clear as can be.

Still no answer huh?

I want curious why you would accuse me it lying over a difference of opinion. Your response did not satisfy me. I have nothing more to say on the subject until I've seen you interact with others more.

[Sunlit Diamond]

How are you getting a town read from one post, when (per your plural phrasing) you didn't even know how many posts she had?

[Sunlit Diamond]

Inferno:

There are multiple tools on this board to do your own post research with. Please use them.

----

That said: VOTE: Vij

Ignoring the fuck out of the self-vote because if inferno goes off again I might actually start screaming, there's the fact that she's done remarkably little actual scumhunting and the reads she has given have been super "safe." I am not a fan and would like to lynch this today.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I believe he called you YelAzu. That might help.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Why couldn't you have just restated it again?

I already said, Sunlit even said it too

Nonono, not the whole quoting thing. I get that. But why the whle vauge philosophical answer thing? Why not just come out and say it? It was never really necessary.

Because you reacted.

Another universal law for you: Just because someone is trolling you does not mean they are scum.

[Sunlit Diamond]

You're killing me N_M. I am simultaneously really irritated by this entire exchange AND crack up every time you post. Me @ confused.net.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Lmao can we lynch Inferno please?

I'm not against removing disruptive players regardless of alignment, assuming there isn't a better lynch to be made that day. The irony of him jumping all over people for anti-town behavior when his own has been pointed out to him again and again and a-fucking-gain without changing in the slightest is killing me.

What do you mean by safe reads? How does that compare with the other low activity players?

Her town reads are you and inferno, who were at that point the only really active players in the game, and her scumread was Raya, who, given that others in the game hadn't yet made a significant appearance, was easy to target. Other quiet players either had reads that felt natural,, have made some effort to scumhunt, haven't contributed enough for me to read, or aren't as high on my will-lynch pool.

Why don't we start with explaining why I should be lynched? DO you think I'm scum?

Would you stop fixating so much on your importance if I did? What are you going to do when a third person starts questioning your logic, waxing poetic, or makes an illogical statement?

Um, I am not calling him scum. That's just my order of read from most town to least town.

This is why I don't color-code my lists.

I think that Not_Mafia is avoiding any direct question I am sending his way and hiding behind philosophical quotes and song lyrics. That plus the convenient timing of his vote on Vij tips the scale for me.

The point he was making with his quotations was valid and real, and it went right over your head. Can you stop for a second and think about what that might mean for your super logic?

IF you have something important to say, you can say it straight, not make everyone have to hunt down you're meaning for your own pleasure.

If everyone played this way, mafia wouldn't be a thing. Plus, the way he phrased it went quite well with the point he was making.

[Sunlit Diamond]

[Sunlit Diamond]

I hate myself so much I actually reread this thread.

Inferno I would like to hydra with you at some point. I think playing with someone who can give feedback on your play without the nuance of you trying to sort them (and without stalling the game to do it) would be extremely beneficial. This is a serious proposition, please PM me if interested.

A) Tywin vs Inferno. Is that light at the far end of this tunnel, or just a train?

B) I'm tempted to take Not_Mafia at his word that he's scum. I was amused by the trolling when it was happening, but on a reread...it's just a massive distraction that didn't seem to have any actual purpose beyond getting inferno riled up and wasting time. He may replace Vij as my lynch choice for the day. I'm tired and cranky after wading through all that crap so I'm going to give it a minute and see what he has to say first.

C) I do not understand the scumread on Raya. I read the thread, I ISO'd her, I looked through some of her post history...it's far from anything close to a good meta read, but her behavior seems consistent and I'm town reading pretty hard at this point. Can someone go into better detail with this?

D) Yes Vij, you were reading the people who were active. My problem is that there was no depth to those reads and your posts since have been...luke warm.

E) Acid and gorny are on the lower side of my list as well.


My list green to red right now is something like

Inferno
Raya
Tywin
Acid/Gorny
Not_Mafia / Vijarada


and Godel is null until he gets back.


Also: According to my email I have a shit ton of work piling up and may not be able to post again until tomorrow night.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Option B. Scum and none of his points make sense. Will follow up on that tomorrow when I have more time.

Tywin:

Through door A, you have a no-lynch on day 1.
Through door B, you have to vote for someone other than Inferno.

Given these two options and no others, which would you pick?

[Sunlit Diamond]

I still think Vij is scum, but I could compromise vote for Not_Mafia if there's a snowflake's chance in hell of actually stringing him up. See my prior post for reason.

[Sunlit Diamond]

So no one is going to vote Inferno?

If not, I can do acid. I am not really comfortable lynching outside of these two.

I am not voting inferno, no.

Why are you scumreading acid over others?

[Sunlit Diamond]

Any others, but specifically Vij and Not Mafia.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Godel:

Raya seems town to me so yeah, I need a lot more explanation for why I should shift my read.

My "possible scum" read on acid is based on her less than stellar 155 and [post]157[/i]. However, she's been so completely absent that she may as well be on VLA so I'm not exactly going to stake my inheritance on this read. It's flimsy and I know it's flimsy which is why I'm not voting for her.

My "possible scum" read on Gorny was based on the fact that his reasoning for voting for me was far too strong for the actual scenario, and his behavior up until his very last post did not change my opinion that he's just coasting. His last post I need to consider as it may change my read.


I wish Tywin and Inferno would just stop.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Whoops, fucked up my tags. 155 and 157

[Sunlit Diamond]

I don't actually mind the wall posts. The initial ones. The repetitive harping on each other when it's clear that it's doing nothing for game state is what's driving me up the wall.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I don't actually mind the wall posts. The initial ones. The repetitive harping on each other when it's clear that it's doing nothing for game state is what's driving me up the wall.

"Driving me up the wall."
But seriously, sorry about those. I intended to play Mafia without the wall posts with I first found this site. I guess it didn't happen like I planned...

This is not a newbie game, and I don't qualify as an IC, but I'm going to pretend for a second that it is and I do.

I think you may be missing the point, and while there's a chance that's purposeful (read: you're scum), I'm just going to assume it isn't for the sake of sanity.

It's not the wall posts that are the problem. I've been guilty of those and I will be again. Sometimes they're necessary! When I get confident on a good read I go point for point down a player's ISO and rip them apart. I have a decently consistent (if limited) record of being right when I get to that type of read and I'll fight anyone who tells me I can't do it. =P So no, I'll never tell someone "don't wall post."

It's also not the 1v1. Again speaking to personal experience: I've been in 1v1s onsite and offsite that was super useful for sorting later. However, in each game there came a point where I had to ask myself "What am I trying to accomplish, and is it worth stalling the game?" Ultimately I dropped the 1v1 and moved on.

So...in this case, you guys have been going in circles for the entirety of this game. You're accusing each other of doing the same things in different words. You have enough confbias between you to tunnel through the Swiss Alps, and your last few exchanges have been (as far as I can tell) simply regurgitation of prior arguments. Other players have openly expressed that the 1v1 is making them disengage from the game to one degree or another, and it's unlikely that either of you will convince the rest of us to lynch the other during this specific day phase.

It's time to ask yourselves: What is this 1v1 actually accomplishing? Is it worth stalling the game? Then take action accordingly.

If you aren't scum, you're doing a damn good job of doing scum's work for them.

If you are scum, hats off to you for a good show.

/soapbox

[Sunlit Diamond]

I need to reread. Again. Because the last couple pages are making me question my read on inferno and I need to know if it's frustration or actual scumtells.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Maybe I'm dense, but I can't figure out what this actually means:

VOTE: tywinlbecause I haven't done remotely enough to be in a pool of 2 comfortable lynches in a 2 scum game

Are you saying you haven't done enough to vote in the wagons we have, or you don't think you've done enough to be voted for?

Also I notice you managed to indirectly finger Tywin and Gorny as a scum team...by default because you town read the rest...?

--

UNVOTE: Vij

Not really comfortable lynching here anymore. Thinking about Acid, Not Mafia, or Gorny.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Can you tell us why you are townreading acid?

[Sunlit Diamond]

Still waiting to see what Raya says about her reads. In the meantime, we have little over a day left. It seems like more people favor a acid lynch over Inferno, but again, I'm gonna wait to see what Raya says.

Oh. That actually makes sense. I had a feeling it was an issue of my gray matter malfunctioning.

I fall back on my original compromise vote. VOTE: N_M . Willing to look at Tywin tomorrow though.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Still waiting to see what Raya says about her reads. In the meantime, we have little over a day left. It seems like more people favor a acid lynch over Inferno, but again, I'm gonna wait to see what Raya says.

Oh. That actually makes sense. I had a feeling it was an issue of my gray matter malfunctioning.

I fall back on my original compromise vote. VOTE: N_M . Willing to look at Tywin tomorrow though.

I have no idea why this quoted Tywin, I was responding to Acid.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Nah, I'm not going to vote Acid. In fact I'm seriously contemplating voting Tywin, but the thought of validating Inferno's wikivomit gives me hives.

I'm also questioning my townread on Raya.

Maybe I'm just tired and WIFOM'd out.

I'm going to sleep on it and see if that helps me decide.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Also Acid- are you voting for Tywin, or Not_Mafia?

[Sunlit Diamond]

I am so sick of the Tywin/Inferno tunnel that at this point I would lynch you both just to make it stop.

I coached Inferno on game play because he's lock-town in my eyes, you're tunneled on him, Not_Mafia was trolling him, and no one else was active enough or experienced enough to give him the guidance necessary to A) avoid lynching a townie and b) not have to deal with that happening again and again for the rest of the game.

This game is designated as newbie-friendly. If I get scumread for actually helping a newbie with play points instead of trolling him for the lols, I'm going to scream.

[Sunlit Diamond]

And yes. I did question my read on him. For the space of one post. I did my reread, and nothing changed. I saw no specific reason to post just to point that out when there was other stuff going on and my other reads WERE changing.

In my opinion Acid is lynchbait. He's getting scumread and voted for because of inactivity and inconsistent reads. The former is entirely NAI and the latter is also NAI with a sliiiight lean toward town. The fact that he's getting pushed tells me scum is pushing this lynch. I'm not interested in playing along. I was thinking of voting for you, Tywin, because you jumped on that train pretty damn fast and it struck me as odd. However, you have just as much black and white thinking as Inferno in your own way, so I'm gonna let it sit and see what happens tomorrow.

My vote stays where it's at.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I'm calling him lock-town because of his play, not because he's a newbie. Way to misrepresent.

[Sunlit Diamond]

As for the lynch comment - I've said that once already, only I was talking about Inferno. Why didn't it bother you then?

[Sunlit Diamond]

As for the lynch comment - I've said that once already, only I was talking about Inferno. Why didn't it bother you then?

I can't find it.

Then look harder.

[Sunlit Diamond]

In post 222, TywinL wrote:
Lmao can we lynch Inferno please?


I'm not against removing disruptive players regardless of alignment, assuming there isn't a better lynch to be made that day. The irony of him jumping all over people for anti-town behavior when his own has been pointed out to him again and again and a-fucking-gain without changing in the slightest is killing me.

[Sunlit Diamond]

^ that's my commentary on him being town, but acting anti-town to the point I would lynch to get rid of the disruption, in case the subtlty is lost on anyone.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Finally: check my first newbie for proof that I will, as town, hammer my own lock town reads if their behavior is disruptive and making it impossible to scum hunt.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Last I checked people refer to their past games all the time. It's NAI and you know it is.

[Sunlit Diamond]

That's different. I dismissed that because I knew you would never vote Inferno following that logic because from your POV, there should be better lynches for you.

P-Edit: Self meta huh?

So how exactly is my post about Inferno different from my post about you?

A) I said I would lynch to remove disruption.
B) I reiterated that my vote remained where it was. Aka: Better place to lynch.

[Sunlit Diamond]

It's not against win con when doing it is the only conceivable way for conversation to move on from a dead end.

I posted the IC-style commentary knowing I would get accused of white knighting eventually. The benefits of offering the advice out weighed the cons of a game where half the players wouldn't engage. I did it specifically to avoid (or attempt to avoid) the kind of dead end that leads to policy lynching town.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Why is my blatant survivalism being ignored, especially if you scumread me

Frankly because I'm scum reading you for purposely wasting time and not helping town when you could have. If you have a reason for me not doing that, I'd like to hear it.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Your lengthy trolling of inferno when you could have as easily posted the same thing I did and moved on to more constructive things. Yes, it was funny and clever. It also wasted time and was completely pointless.

[Sunlit Diamond]

N_M's doctor thing is a counter claim unless I misread Gorny's post.

[Sunlit Diamond]

How exactly is it outing him when he said it outright?

[Sunlit Diamond]

Misreading.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Bleh. The one thing I know in this scenario is that it is never a good idea to lynch a PR claim without discussion, even if it's a ridiculous one.

UNVOTE: N_M

[Sunlit Diamond]

It doesn't matter because I unvoted. We / you can discuss the merit of his claim in tomorrow's day phase.

Vij: druther a no lynch than lynching a PR claim.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Ugh this is the part of mafia I dislike.

I think I dun fucked up, by having the subtle touch of a brick wall.

Please don't lynch N_M. There are town reasons to let him live. I might be totally wrong, but I'd rather find out I was wrong tomorrow than find out I was right tonight.

[Sunlit Diamond]

VOTE: N_M

Actual doctor claim trumps lolclaim. If you actually are a PR I'd love to know what your angle was post game.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Based on Raya and Inferno's interaction regarding N_M's impending lynch, Raya is town. It seems unlikely she could summon that kind of energy if she already knew how N_M would flip.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I was never a doc. I doc gambit ed early on in an attempt to draw the NK on purpose. I was hoping the real doc would have never claimed. Happy that one scum got lynched though.

This is a closed setup and we had no flips, not even soft claims before yours. Why would you assume there's a doc, let alone essentially suicide to protect it?

I don't think I've ever seen that approach.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Edit to add: Not to say it hasn't happened, I just haven't seen it.

[Sunlit Diamond]

It did that.

VOTE: Gorny

[Sunlit Diamond]

I don't know if "that behavior makes no sense for scum" is a valid argument in a game where a scum PR claims his alignment off the bat and never actually bothers to defend himself when confronted. Even his fakeclaim was BS and he admitted as much.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Questioning a move I've never seen before and trying to understand NM's play style are hardly trying my damnedest to make Gorny look scummy.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I don't know if "that behavior makes no sense for scum" is a valid argument in a game where a scum PR claims his alignment off the bat and never actually bothers to defend himself when confronted. Even his fakeclaim was BS and he admitted as much.

It makes no sense because if both myself and N_M are scum, that ends up with one of us very likely being lynched, if it doesn't happen D1, it likely happens D2 When the claim falls apart (the real doc claims). Then there's a three way. Anyway you look at it, scum will be caught soon. So that behavior makes no sense.

This does make sense. UNVOTE:

[Sunlit Diamond]

I unvoted as soon as he presented an explanation founded in game mechanic logic rather than what scum "should" do.

For D1- I pushed for n_m. I unvoted when he claimed because it's dumb to lynch without discussing a PR claim. Then I revoted when it became clear his claim was fake.

I will happily engage further and at more length once kiddo is in bed, for the record.

[Sunlit Diamond]

@Sunlit: viewtopic.php?f=94&t=73024&start=50

That's amazing and something I never would have thought of. Thank you!

[Sunlit Diamond]

I'm functioning on four hours of sleep, so bear with me please.

My Initial Horny read was based on his "that's a lie" read on me. It was super strong for a reason that bore no weight. However, it was also early in the game, and in reflection I thought it was a reaction test and stopped viewing it as scummy. Especially with the lite doc claim.

With N_M...I think I gave my reasoning pretty clearly about why I voted him initially (he was actively contributing to a time wasting situation, and TR my one hard town read). I backed off because we were short on time and I was approaching a point where I couldn't stay up to date by the minute. Acid said his role was ridiculous and it felt like it was, but I don't yet have the intuitive grasp of such things myself. Rather than risk having scum hammer a PR while I figured it out, I unvoted.

Acid's claim was emotion-driven and genuine. If he was Doctor, and I believed him, then N_M's claim couldn't be coming from town. So I revoted.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Omg. Gorny. Not Horny.

I'm going to go die now.

[Sunlit Diamond]

P-edit #2:

(he was actively contributing to a time wasting situation, and

trolling

my one hard town read).

[Sunlit Diamond]

If writing down what I did is claiming credit, then yes. I suppose I am.

Odd that you're so fixated on discrediting me. Might it have something to do with the fact that I hard town read Inferno, but have no interest in doing the same for you?

[Sunlit Diamond]

If writing down what I did is claiming credit, then yes. I suppose I am.

To be explicitly clear, this is sarcasm. Acid made that lynch happen. All I did was vote- and provide explanation for my decisions when asked

[Sunlit Diamond]

I think you need to review my history some more.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Wait, I trashed Tywin in a 1v1?

[Sunlit Diamond]

He's a terrible townie, but he is town.

I'm interested in Gorny's Godel read, and curious if Godel has something to say about it.

[Sunlit Diamond]

So if you appreciate my arguing skills, why am I a scum lean?

I don't know what I think of Gorny's Gambit.

I'm really, really tired today. I need to revisit my reads, but it may have to wait until I've slept.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Because I feel like you're statement that we shouldn't lynch a PR without discussing it first is pretty weak. There had already been plenty of discussion surrounding it (in my opinion), and to jump off a wagon that late like that when I'm trying to get good info and we're trying to make a decision is a bad idea. We could have talked over the claim with the hammer still hanging over N_M's head and still gotten the same result. So I'm starting to think that maybe you moved off the wagon because you were one of the main instigators of the wagon, and you had been bussing N_M a little bit (not to get him lynched, mind you, just a pushing a little) and you accidentally ended up bussing too hard, which resulted in the lynch (That would be especially bad for you, knowing that your partner was the scum PR). So you tried to jump off the wagon in an attempt to draw others off of it and make it fall apart.

I'm functioning on four hours of sleep, so bear with me please.

My Initial Horny read was based on his "that's a lie" read on me. It was super strong for a reason that bore no weight. However, it was also early in the game, and in reflection I thought it was a reaction test and stopped viewing it as scummy. Especially with the lite doc claim.

With N_M...I think I gave my reasoning pretty clearly about why I voted him initially (he was actively contributing to a time wasting situation, and TR my one hard town read). I backed off because we were short on time and I was approaching a point where I couldn't stay up to date by the minute. Acid said his role was ridiculous and it felt like it was, but I don't yet have the intuitive grasp of such things myself. Rather than risk having scum hammer a PR while I figured it out, I unvoted.

Acid's claim was emotion-driven and genuine. If he was Doctor, and I believed him, then N_M's claim couldn't be coming from town. So I revoted.

Can you point me to which parts of this post do not satisfy you, Inferno?

[Sunlit Diamond]

Sunlit: I agree with why you voted initially. What I don't agree with is why you jumped off the wagon. You said you wanted to discuss the claim, per post 475. But that could have easily been done because I had clamed intent to hammer. If someone had gone and quickhammered, and N_M was a PR, then we would hae snagge him today because that's a

really

scummy move. And if we were short on time like you say, you should have kept the steam on rather than backed off, because we didn't have the time to wait for another person to jump on the wagon. Your revote makes sense too; it's just the unvote that has me a little concerned. It seems like you had the L-1 and then backed all the way off. Especially with your good reasons as to why N_M was scum,

I don't understand why you would do that.

I literally explained why I did that in my post.

[Sunlit Diamond]

While this is still fresh in my head:

Who first gave the idea that N_M was CCing GOrny? Because if it wasn't N_M himself, could it be possible that he claimed doc without realizing that Gorny had done it first? It'd definitely put a different light on Gorny's points to why he's not scum.

That would be me.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I'd like to point out that any defense of N_M was non-existent and no effective effort was made to stop his lynch once the wagon began.

For this reason I had briefly considered Godel as a partner, but unless he hardbussed N_M for no reason, he's off the docket. It might be Vij, and she's just awful scum, but that seems even less likely.

In fact, the ONLY thing that could be seen as a counter came from Tywin- and he did that by abruptly shifting from townreading me to scumreading me (Which also occurred after I indicated my lynch choices were either N_M or him), and has subsequently tried his hardest to diminish the effort I'm putting into the game by picking at words.

Occam's Razor indicates that I should VOTE: TywinL

I encourage others to vote with me please.

PS: I also have problems, on a reread, with the manner in which he engaged with Inferno. I'm going to try to put that into words this evening.

[Sunlit Diamond]

meh. Hardbus might be the wrong term, I'm not sure. What I mean is that Godel's vote is what effectively tipped the balance and made it an N_M lynch. This seems like a dumbfuck move for a scum partner to take when he could as easily have jumped on my wagon and (again) made me a viable alternative.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I'm curious how it is that you can claim a thing is fake and no one knows about it when two people in this thread referenced it independently of one another.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Also curious why, if Gorny's claims are so bad, you are working so hard to undermine his credibility with passive-aggressive emotional strikes.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Also it's super amazing how many different times you've done things you didn't mean to do, or were taken incorrectly, in one short game.

[Sunlit Diamond]

All of my preceding posts are directed at Vij.

UNVOTE:

[Sunlit Diamond]

I have an issue with Tywin's counterwagon to N_M in D1, because it was the only one that actually happened.

I also have an issue with how quickly Vij flipped to voting for Tywin, and without announcing L1 at that, and in the middle of a storm of calls to emotion.

Also I'm a 1-shot bulletproof vengeful serial killer.

Because lol.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I think that that's a compelling third option to the ones I'm struggling with.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Because i struggle with super obvious omg ur scum things. There's a difference between "most likely scenario" and "scum would have to be incompetent to do this."

[Sunlit Diamond]

Either we're focused on the wrong information or we're focused in the wrong person/people. When it gets to that point I tend to think the scum team is laughing at us.

I've been giving surface level analysis for a couple RL days now because of life, and that's been doing the same zero favors.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Alternatively I'm just a too-suspicious turkey and we should lynch Vij and explore other options tomorrow if she isn't scum.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Tywin: If you think I'm scum, let's talk. Other than the voting scenario that I already explained, where is your read coming from?

Inferno: What was the point of your fake claim thing?

Vij: You said you trust me enough to sheep me. Why, when others are scumreading me? What do you think of my assertion that scum is laughing at us?

[Sunlit Diamond]

Also, if my assertion that current scum reads are bad, then that leaves me with:

Inferno - Town

Tywin, Vij, Gorny as probably town

Raya and Godel as potential scum.

That's an inverse of my prior reads. Going by prior interactions surrounding shifting reads in this game, that change is going to attract negative attention. And...still going to post it.

[Sunlit Diamond]

If current scum reads are crap, the only ones left are Raya and Godel. They also happen to be the ones NM mentioned least when I scanned his ISO. I have little to give this theory beyond my gut and those two pieces of logic until I finish rereading.

I got slogged down on page twelve. As of that point inferno was obvious town and I was really tired of reading repetitive wall posts. X.X

[Sunlit Diamond]

Vij: You said you trust me enough to sheep me. Why, when others are scumreading me? What do you think of my assertion that scum is laughing at us?

Well others are wrong tbh. I don't really trust what they have to say. And, yes, I'm absolutely sure the scum is laughing at the town running in circles here.

Anyway, tomorrow, I will look at N_M's interactions and actually ISO people. Look forward to it chappies.

That's a rather generic response.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I know you were missing, but I don't think it's actually obvious that that's why NM didn't mention you.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I'm also not actually scum reading, so much as making an assumption and seeing what comes of it.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I'm assuming, for better or for worse, that current scum reads are bad. From that perspective, you and Raya are the potential scum pool.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Which I have already said twice. It would be brilliant if people actually read the thread. Also interesting that you picked up on the fact that I mentioned you, but didn't happen to see how or why.

[Sunlit Diamond]

"it would keep people from trying to do some reading"?

Not sure what you mean?

And fair enough on the getting people to talk. I feel like this entire day phase is a case of people talking past each other.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I'm assuming you mean "fixation" posts would be anti-town? I think discussion of the actual claims made (or lack thereof) could lend interesting and useful results.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Gorny's claim will keep coming up, because it was scummy as fuck and the explanation was not satisfying.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I will give you a wall post on inferno in a couple hours, Tywin. It boils down to tone and cluelessness and sincerity, however, and the designation that this is a newbie friendly game.

I don't think NM was even reading the game beyond a rapid skim.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Look through his ISO. I've read it ten times. He did not give a single fuck.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Oooor he's really good at seeming that way. His baiting of inferno was obvious. So was his parting shot. So does that mean everything he posted was obvious? In that case our scum picks are Vij and Godel based on his reads list. But he's been around too long to believe he'd just toss a game for the hell of it.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Yes sorry, I meant NM

[Sunlit Diamond]

I promised a wall post, so here you go.

@Tywin: I'm assuming by defending Inferno you are referring to my repeated attempts to provide game play guidance. See below:

Spoiler: Click at your own peril

65

This post is the first time I tried to help inferno, and it came about because you two were arguin and it was pretty clear to me that it was a matter of semantics. You appear to define a "Scummy read" as "I would vote for this person" whereas Inferno appeared to be seeing it as more "your behavior is questionable and I want more information."

It felt like one or the other of you was being obtuse on purpose, so I decided to throw out the "anti-town" explanation to see if it would end the argument...and/or see how you reacted.

My post after that was made to clarify that my definition is subjective because my take on you BOTH at that point was that you would jump on every single stray word and use it as black and white argument for or against alignment.


70 - Inferno immediately adopted that definition. Town points to him for wanting to clarify discussion. I also saw yet more stubborn refusal to see what was right in front of his eyes. My take at this point was that he was completely incapable of seeing subtlety, to a degree that I still don't believe a person can fake. Also the rest of that entire gigantic wallpost was just him banging his head against the same thing.

He wasn't trying to convince the rest of the thread you were scum. He was trying to get you to admit that you were. I both witnessed and indulged in this behavior in my first newbie. Turned out that a) yes, all parties involved were town, and b) my gut read to that effect was correct (but the two locked in combat never did sort their differences and the result was a town loss).


As of 72 I'm not convinced that Inferno knew what NAI meant.

Vij summarized my town read and my perspective in 82. "You're town. Now please stop."


90 - His "clarification" paragraph reminds me of a post I wrote as newb scum trying to "logically" explain a read that made no sense. This is the first time I questioned his sincerity; you can see that in my inquiry in 92. I was trying to determine whether he was being a hypocrite or legitimately did not realize that the things he was quoting could be subjective.

Your post 93 - I can see you attempt to disengage, but you also seemed incapable of doing so without having the "last word" which had the effect of prolonging the argument and causing inferno to spin his wheels even more. When I voted for you earlier in this day phase, this was one of the things I was referring to when I said I had problems with your interactions with Inferno.

Your post 94 This is another. Why are you so desperate to twist his words around? He's asked this before at this point in the thread, so it stands out.

98 - I intended to respond to this and never did. Newb town have a tendency to be utterly set in their reads, convinced they've found THE tell, go miles and miles out of their way to prove their point, and go head to head with the one they're certain is scum to the detriment of everything. I've only played a few games myself, but I have read others and I have yet to see this attitude/approach successfully faked by newb scum.

I will try not to die of embarrassment if this game is the one that proves me wrong.

101 (and the wall post after) - Yep, Inferno's just not able to see gray. He can't see that others are frustrated with the walls, he can't see that fallacies can be subjective, he can't see that pounding his head against Tywin isn't going to produce any meaningful results.


At this point I'm convinced he's town. I'm less convinced you are town, because you actually were doing some of the things he said. It wasn't a hard scum read by any means, just...less of a certainty.

I'm also convinced that the 1v1 is making it impossible to find actual scum and it has to stop. Direct requests to stop aren't working (see: Vij, Raya I think, you, my own hints), and we don't have an IC to step in and guide away from unproductive scenarios.
So....I try to help him see some gray so we. can. move. on. I even directly tell him WHY his play is causing problems in 121, and then *attempt* to redirect to another conversation. ANY other conversation.

173 - Getting really tired of inferno's shit, but trying to be nice.


And then there's the N_M/Inferno stand off. If Inferno is scum, this is some well done scum theater. Given the play habits he's shown so far in the game, I cannot imagine scum!inferno managing to go through this exchange without slipping in some REALLY obvious way.

201 - Once again I'm trying to head off the completely pointless 1v1 time-wasting player-disengaging crap at the pass.

203 - ....but it was kind of ironic and amusing. Even knowing N_M is scum.

222 ....you still want to lynch Inferno? Maybe I should have posted this wall at that point. I was really tired and feeling pretty disengaged myself, however.

223-225 - But you're probably town. Tunneling town, but town.


234 - Once again, trying to underscore how unproductive the conversation has been and move. on.


264 - I am convinced at this point that the scum team is going to get Inferno and Tywin into lylo together, because if that happens, town loses.

274 - AGAIN trying to end the deadlock by pointing out the actual consequences of it. You had shown enough critical thinking that I thought you might get the point and make the conscious decision to move on.

318 - Last attempt to get the god damn game back on track, speaking in terms I hope Inferno can understand.

321 - Inferno's readlist underscores that he townreads people he likes and scumreads people he doesn't. There's a basic lack of critical thinking there, but it's not scum-leaning, in my opinion, given how he's played so far. I did question it, and handful of posts after, because we didn't have a red flip on N_M yet. With that flip? Yeah, not seeing much there that would help N_M, and thus not a lot of scum motivation in what was said.

So basically from all of that you can gather:

A) I townread Inferno because I just don't think he's capable of keeping up this act if he's scum
B) I tried to help him because I can see there's promise in his reads, but the way he was making them was painful and hurting town
C) I was rapidly getting irritated, but trying to be kind in my feedback
D) I was consistently and constantly trying to push the game away from dead end 1v1 that was simply rehashing the same points over and over


I can say that Inferno's game in D2 has been different. I am not sure how I feel about that yet.

----

Also:

371 - Unrelated to the purpose of the rest of this post, but this makes me question Raya. She has conf!scum in her townreads and conf/obvious town in her scum list, and her town read on me is fence-sitting at best.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Hypothetical assumption that you, Vij, and Gorny are all town.

I just wrote a bunch of words about Inferno.
My read and vote on you was dumb.
I'm about 80% sure Vij is lynchbait.
Raya is less townie than I originally thought.
Gorny is probably scum, but I'm having a time building a case to support my gutread.

I wish Godel would actually play.

[Sunlit Diamond]

The first is a hypothetical scenario where my read of you is wrong. The latter is my actual read of you.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I'll respond this evening after kiddo's in bed.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Sorry for ignoring your question Tywin. Newbie 1821 was in lylo, but I couldn't exactly say that here. Winners just got announced if you want to witness the madness.

NOW I can go catch up on Vij.

@Gorny: Godel's been coasting this entire game, not just this day.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Ugh. Kid won't sleep, thus no more mafia for me tonight.

I have a thing half written, I'll get it up tomorrow.

[Sunlit Diamond]

So this post can actually be a hell of a lot shorter than it was originally. And again, sorry for taking a while. This is the only game I’m in now, however, so y’all get all my time and all my brain power for a while.

So Vij…

The way she says things is difficult to parse / abrasive
She doesn’t explain her reads the way Inferno/Tywin/I do, so they look random
She has done some things that the wiki specifically says are "bad play," but per site meta are actually pretty damn normal for both alignments.

I have witnessed (and been part of) too many mislynches that happened primarily because of those characteristics for me to take them at face value anymore. Her response to me calling her out on the CtE’s underscored this for me.

To balance that:

She has made some good points in the midst of her spam / I can see the town motivation behind what she says
She gets pissed off when obvious town do things that are her definition (and occasionally dictionary definition) of dumb.
This is admittedly a gut read, but I feel like if she and N_M were partners they would have bounced off each other more, given neither seems to give a fuck about how people perceive them.

There are a few things that challenge this take:

1. Her comparison of her post count to Tywin’s. That was super disingenuous considering Tywin’s posts are like 99.9% gamesolving and hers are about 60%, and she is/was townreading him.
2. It’s easy to fake anger / outrage.
3. And then there how quickly she bounced from vote to vote at the end of D1… but that one's tougher because there actually was a decent amount of waffling going on and the clock was ticking...so... *shrug*

If I run down my list:

Inferno - If scum, we're screwed
Tywin - If scum, we're screwed
Gorny - Not really making me happy, but as of what I've seen so far, I’m willing to wait to pursue until tomorrow
Raya - VLA. I think she's coming back today and can hopefully give us something real
Godel - Would like to see more from him this week. I read his ISO and it's not actually as bad as I thought, just not as profuse as some of us.
Vijarada - Don't think she's scum, but willing to vote to avoid a no lynch.

By POE my vote pool for this day phase should be Raya/Godel, but something is not sitting right with me in that regard, which tells me something is "off" about the rest of my reads. Basically: I want to see more from them before I push anything.


p-edit: Inferno: Explain why gut reads shouldn't be a thing?

[Sunlit Diamond]

Also, dumb question, but what is AoR?

[Sunlit Diamond]

Oh, okay. I was thinking it was like...Attack on Reason, and I was like "But isn't that what this entire game is about."

Gotta tend to RL for a bit. Will be back.

p-edit: I think gutreads are fine- when they can be backed up by reason to one extent or another. When they're used as an excuse to not HAVE reason, then I get bothered.

p-edit #2: Tywin, I think you missed the subtlety. I don't support my lynch pool, either. It exists only by POE at this point, and that's not an acceptable impetus for a vote in my opinion.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Suppose we lynch Gorny and he flips town. What do we do next?

[Sunlit Diamond]

Sunlit, I'm having a hard time understanding your paranoia. What are your actual reads?

I am waiting for something. When that thing happens (or doesn't happen), I'll explain.

If half the game weren't mia/vla/quiet, it would be less excruciating.

[Sunlit Diamond]

To explain more clearly: I am townreading every active player save Gorny ,but I actively dislike lynching by default, so my stubborn ass is like "NO."

I need current commentary from the quiet ones. Once I have that I'll vote, explain what I was doing, and if y'all like it, great. If you don't, also great.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Heh. My inverted reads comment was intended to start conversation about people who were sliding under the radar. It did actually work, to a degree.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I need to hear from Vij. If she doesn't show up by the time I get back from adulting I'll explained what I was up to, though it won't have the same unit since it will be supposition not a definite read.

[Sunlit Diamond]

.... Unit? Same impact.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I think that's a really odd conclusion to come to. If she were new, yeah. But she/that account has been around for a year, yeah.

[Sunlit Diamond]

(by that I mean- she hasn't logged on since her last post in this game, I somehow doubt she's site flaked to avoid being scum read).

[Sunlit Diamond]

So here's the thing. If we're not voting Gorny than the two obvious lynch targets for today are me and Vij (because Tywin and inferno will never happen, Gorny is in limbo, and Raya and Godel haven't done anything to warrant a vote). I wanted to see how she, Godel, and Raya responded to that. I had different thoughts for the quiet ones, but if Vij jumped on the chance to hard scum read me for it, I'd be inclined, under the circumstances, to break my "lynch bait" read and vote for her.

Unfortunately, saying that was my goal undoes the point of doing it. However
... I think current game state is intriguing. My behavior has been objectively bad and it would be easy to get a wagon on me... so why hasn't it happened?

[Sunlit Diamond]

Meaning from what I've seen, the majority of the active people are suspicious of you, but no one is going to vote yet.

[Sunlit Diamond]

So here's the thing. If we're not voting Gorny than the two obvious lynch targets for today are me and Vij (because Tywin and inferno will never happen, Gorny is in limbo, and Raya and Godel haven't done anything to warrant a vote). I wanted to see how she, Godel, and Raya responded to that. I had different thoughts for the quiet ones, but if Vij jumped on the chance to hard scum read me for it, I'd be inclined, under the circumstances, to break my "lynch bait" read and vote for her.

Unfortunately, saying that was my goal undoes the point of doing it. However
... I think current game state is intriguing. My behavior has been objectively bad and it would be easy to get a wagon on me... so why hasn't it happened?

okay so you wanted to see who would wagon you by doing something completely scummy and then later come clean?

No. I specifically wanted to see what Vij would do.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Also Sunlit, I was feeling better about you but now I'm a little weary because like I said, I feel like you are playing with other people's emotions and dumping unnecessary paranoia but the other part of me also thinks that the paranoia is genuine.

I think Vij will flip town. I think our scum are among our town reads, but I don't know which.

It's not paranoia, it's my read. I might be wrong, but that's where I sit.

[Sunlit Diamond]

do you base this on anything other than his absence?

The way she says things is difficult to parse / abrasive
She doesn’t explain her reads the way Inferno/Tywin/I do, so they look random
She has done some things that the wiki specifically says are "bad play," but per site meta are actually pretty damn normal for both alignments.

I have witnessed (and been part of) too many mislynches that happened primarily because of those characteristics for me to take them at face value anymore. Her response to me calling her out on the CtE’s underscored this for me.

To balance that:

She has made some good points in the midst of her spam / I can see the town motivation behind what she says
She gets pissed off when obvious town do things that are her definition (and occasionally dictionary definition) of dumb.
This is admittedly a gut read, but I feel like if she and N_M were partners they would have bounced off each other more, given neither seems to give a fuck about how people perceive them.

There are a few things that challenge this take:

1. Her comparison of her post count to Tywin’s. That was super disingenuous considering Tywin’s posts are like 99.9% gamesolving and hers are about 60%, and she is/was townreading him.
2. It’s easy to fake anger / outrage.
3. And then there how quickly she bounced from vote to vote at the end of D1… but that one's tougher because there actually was a decent amount of waffling going on and the clock was ticking...so... *shrug*

[Sunlit Diamond]

So from what I can tell, this game came to a complete standstill.

I don't have a whole lot to say until Vij returns or is replaced.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Because I'm a stubborn ass who doesn't want to back down from a read.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Everyone appears to scum read Vij. There are zero other options being considered, to the point that the game died because she's missing. I don't know about anyone else, but expecting someone to replace into that scenario is a little absurd.

Also important: this stall out would have happened even if I hadn't countered the scum read, because she hasn't been back to real to us.

It's a little frustrating.

[Sunlit Diamond]

*back to talk to us

[Sunlit Diamond]

Basically I'm wondering if we should just lynch that space.

If she's town, where do y'all look next?

If she's scum, presumably this game is done and we can all hang our heads together in post game. XP

[Sunlit Diamond]

Do you expect someone to hammer a player who is absent? That's widely considered bad form.

[Sunlit Diamond]

However, it may actually be the only way to get the game to move forward at this point. meh.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Yay!!!

[Sunlit Diamond]

Intent to hammer. Please claim.

If you flip town, I get lynched tomorrow and we go to LyLo with the current town reads.

If you flip scum, we win.

If the wagon shifts and I get lynched, then town has more to work with and fewer distractions to tracking down the scum.

It doesn't matter how it pans out, town is better off.

[Sunlit Diamond]

My prior post stands.

[Sunlit Diamond]

As for me not being scum: I've could have gone with the flow and hammered Vij days ago. Extremely easy mislynch supported by my scum read of her day one.

I could have let Tywin and Inferno argue forever.

I could have pushed Gorny into a lynch.

I could have pushed Acid into a lynch.

I could have encouraged and joined in on NM's trolling of Inferno.

I could have joined either Tywin or Inferno to get the other lynched.

I have done none of those things.

My read have been confusing at times, but my intent and motivation has always been to help town.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Can you actually tell me, honestly, that the potential paths I offered 2-3 posts ago do not help town?

In two of three of those scenarios I get lynched. In the other, town wins. Can you tell me exactly what you're scum reading in that?

[Sunlit Diamond]

There are two possibilities here: scum math is trying to get votes off him so he won't get lynched, or town math is trying to help me. I'll be watching what everyone else does carefully. Breaking the three options I presented can only be scum motivated.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Vij didn't give enough info to be useful and Math hasn't been in the game long enough to give anything useful.

Optimal town play would be to lynch me today and use my flip, my post history, and the NK's flip and history to help you figure out who the wolf is tomorrow.

Don't believe me? Fucking do it and find out.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Also: Math, are you refusing to roleclaim?

[Sunlit Diamond]

...I read your ISO and didn't see a claim. Unless "Town" is a claim?

[Sunlit Diamond]

....I'm dumb and blind. I apologize.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Either way: I am literally saying to lynch me. So do it. In the mean time: WHEN I flip green, who are you looking at next?

[Sunlit Diamond]

VOTE: Godel <--- that would be my recommendation.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I've read this thread several times. I find myself frustrated by lurkers, tunneling, bad gambits, and total lack of subtlety. In a world where there are two obvious town (Tywin and Inferno), one who no one seems interested in looking at at all (Raya), one who pulled a bad gambit but has otherwise seemed pretty town since (Gorny), two lurkers (Godel and Vij/you), and myself, there's really not a whole freaking lot I can do except try to stir the pot and see what bubbles to the top.

p-edit: Because my experience of this game so far is that we would stay in gridlock until someone intention to hammered, so I broke the glass and did it myself.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I cannot think of any productive reason a town PR should claim today unless forced to. All that would do is ensure that (going by game size) the only town PR + the only confirmed town gets NKed before LyLo.

[Sunlit Diamond]

The good news is that by voting me, you're helping the game get the hell out of a hole. The bad news is that you're wrong.

Either scum is fantastic or scum is really bad and I don't know which it is.

My vote on Godel stands.

[Sunlit Diamond]

The good news is that by voting me, you're helping the game get the hell out of a hole. The bad news is that you're wrong.

Either scum is fantastic or scum is really bad and I don't know which it is.

My vote on Godel stands.

There other bad news is that we wouldn't be here if half the game wasn't MIA and the other half were willing to step outside their comfort zone a second.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Inferno- already covered my read on him.
Tywin: probably not scum, but may be playing us all. Like Math said: if scum, give scummie
Raya: it'd be fantastic super awesome if you'd post more than once every three days. If you're town, the support would be really useful. If you're scum, the conversation would still be better then nothing.
Gorny: is either scum or has bad ideas.
Godel: comes across as reasonable, but his posts subtly stir the pot, and he's lurking *just enough* to make questioning him difficult... With spurts of activity around the time when suspicion is put on him.
Math: I said Vij was a bad lynch. Y'all were jumping on her tone, not what she was actually doing. Had she come back to engage with me, or if any single person had been willing to back off their ledge and look at her more critically, that would have been useful and the game wouldn't have stalled. Math's presence so far is pretty solid and I maintain my don't Lynch this perspective.... But realistically, I expect he'll hit the gallows tomorrow.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Godel: comes across as reasonable, but his posts subtly stir the pot, and he's lurking *just enough* to make questioning him difficult... With spurts of activity around the time when suspicion is put on him.

Clarity: I find this pattern of behavior scummier than anything else anyone has done.

[Sunlit Diamond]

The one problem with my Godel read is his interaction with NM's slot.


If you think I'm scum then vote for me Godel.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I wait with baited breath.

[Sunlit Diamond]

If you lynch me, then I can't be doctor in a world with people who believe in massive walls of text and flashy rainbows.

True though appreciate this.

Can you explain what about this pings you?

Serious question. Is it that she commented on the claim-lite at all, or the specific phrasing, or something else?

[Sunlit Diamond]

Wait hold on. Are we seriously going to lynch a doctor claim on Day 1?

UNVOTE:

I wont, but I am off to bed with this.

Wait, I can hammer here?

Hmm....

I want to hear everyone else's reasons for why I should or should not hammer before I make a decision. (I am leaning toward hammering.)
Let's hear em, and in the meantime:
UNVOTE:

whew ok 5 hours chaps

VOTE: Sunlit

no lynch=bad. Pretty sure this is an awful lynch. But let's just quicklynch him now, yeah? No lynches suck.

How about we don't lynch the pr claim today. We're getting close to deadline so we need to pick someone to lynch but someone who has claimed a pr is not a good choice for a quicklynch.

Slightly scumreading acid and inferno even more now for insisting we lynch the pr claim.

I'm rereading. Wowzas.

Question: Why was I scumread for backing off on my vote for N_M when 5 other people either expressed the same concern I did (lynching a PR claim) or unvoted for no clear reason, or tried to vote elsewhere?

[Sunlit Diamond]

whew ok 5 hours chaps

VOTE: Sunlit

no lynch=bad. Pretty sure this is an awful lynch. But let's just quicklynch him now, yeah? No lynches suck.

I agree, but we're l-2 on NM. Why Sunlit?

Bc it looks like N_M isn't getting lynched. If he is, I'll go back on him.

In Vij's ISO, this post doesn't look so bad. However...

In the context of the thread, this post is pretty clever. People were questioning whether lynching N_M was a good idea, but there were still multiple people pushing for his lynch. This post glosses over the people pushing, and her vote flipped the wagon from N_M to me.

I take back what I said about Tywin offering the only counter wagon to NM. He voted for me, yes, but Vij's vote was much more of a viable push than his was. My take back is given weight by Tywin's scum read on me being pretty solidly based on the fact that I HAVE been playing poorly. There is zero stretch to what he is saying about me, even if it is wrong.

[Sunlit Diamond]

She also voted for Not_Mafia the second Acid claimed doctor. NM lost the second Acid posted; it seems reasonable to accept that his partner would realize that.

I don't know if "that behavior makes no sense for scum" is a valid argument in a game where a scum PR claims his alignment off the bat and never actually bothers to defend himself when confronted. Even his fakeclaim was BS and he admitted as much.

This post neatly encapsulates why I have struggled so hard with this game.

Learning experience. Anyway, gotta focus on work. Will be back with further commentary soon.

[Sunlit Diamond]

RVS posts are decent and I can see some scum hunting after that
at first it almost seemed like he was trying to get inferno and tywin to argue and then later he tried to separate them

I was trying to sort them both. Then they tunneled, so I tried to break them up.

doesn't do a lot of scum hunting in the next couple of posts and just barley engages in the game while getting prodded.

I never got prodded, unless you're talking about the players talking to me?

The whole hydra offer is still rubbing me the wrong way, why make it public and ask inferno to PM him, just PM him in that case and make the offer, to me it still seems like he is trying to come across as super helpfull
next couple of posts pretty useless again

Because I was trying to underscore exactly how fucking unproductive the conversation was- not just to Inferno, but to the other players.

and then comes the whole IC post that again is getting on my nerves for the same reason as the hydra post

Newbie friendly game.

at the very least badform in pointing out gornys doc hint
unovtoes NM and says it is a ridiculous claim(It seems I am the only idiotic enough person that didn't notice that)
and votes again after acid claimed

I still do not understand how asking about something that was said outright is badform. If he'd been like 80% more subtle I could see it, but he said it straight out. Some one clarify. Please.
The rest I've already gone over.

votes gorny and starts the whole gambit discussion and unvotes at some point
says he is interested in gornys read on me and then didn't follow up after I took apart gornys read, still a bit pissed that nobody ever followed up on that i liked my post there

You've barely been present in the game. I'm not remotely surprised no one picked up that post.

inverts his read and starts confusing the hell out of me

It is my sincere hope that A) I don't make it to LyLo, and B) someone is able to look back at that "confusing inversion" and find something useful to trap scum with.

(lol annoyed ppl didn't read the thread and I just keep think of mathblades claim and how he missed it, I think I may still be a bit drunk)

There's a big difference between missing two letters in a one line post, and being habitually non-present in the game. A HUGE difference.

wall on inferno, heeding bets on inferno suddenly after doing a wall on him

I don't remember hedging my bets on Inferno. I made it pretty damn clear I town read him but found his play unproductive. Why is this so fucking difficult for people to grasp?

can't get a better lynch target than PoE WTF!?!

I covered this already.

Two super town (Tywin and Inferno)
One who no one will look at (Raya)
One who did a gambit and looks scummy but is probably town (Gorny)
One MIA (Godel)
And two lynchbait (myself and Vij). I already covered, at length, why I think Vij/Math is a mislynch, and why lynching him today would be a shitty choice in terms of learning from what has been posted from his slot.

THEREFORE. The only possible way to make a read IS by POE: Godel and Gorny and Raya.

Gorny I actually think is town, after rereading stuff. Raya I don't actually know because she hasn't posted enough. You also have been lurking your ass off.

Please tell me: How exactly do I make a read other than POE under those circumstances?

[Sunlit Diamond]

I just reread this entire thread. It wasn't fun. I am comforted in that I am not the only person whose play has been shite. I am not comforted in that my play actually has been shite.

I did pull a couple things from my D1 perusal:

Not_Mafia:

Spoiler:

- Votes Vijarada in RVS
- States Inferno is town
- Doesn’t like Vij’s RVS reaction test
- Fingers Raya and Sunny as scum
- Gorny could be scum
- Tywin could be scum
- Still fingering Vij
- Reads list: Inferno, Godel, Acid, Raya, Gorny, Tywin, Sunny, Vij, himself
- Actually interacts with Vij in a non trolly way about a game-related subject
- Claims scum
- Trolls Inferno ad nauseum
- Buddies Sunny (”I already said, Sunlit even said it too” 196 )
- Asks why Inferno scumreads Vij
- “not crazy” about Vij.
- Scum reads Sunny again
- Townreads Godel
- Would lynch Vij/Tywin/Sunny/Raya
- Votes Sunny
- Argues against scum Vij because of her Gorny vote
- Votes Vij
- Votes Sunny
- Pushes Sunny vote
- Tries to cast doubt on Inferno
- Pushes Sunny vote
- Outro: Sunny + Acid team

He hard town read Godel and Inferno. His outro fingered the Doctor (who was obviously going to get NKed that night) and myself. He mentioned me 10 times and Vij 10 times. Vij was the only person in the game that he directly interacted with about game related content, and that was for the duration of one post.

The way D1 went it feels like he just tossed the game and it's confusing as fuck because he’s been around since 2014. I keep thinking there’s some rhyme or reason to his posts that I'm not catching, but maybe there really isn't.

If he just tossed the game, then maybe he was as obvious about his partner as he was about his own alignment. If that’s the case, then Inferno, Godel (as his hard town reads), Vij and myself are the obvious options. I’m still townreading Inferno, and I know I’m town, which leaves Vij and Godel.

Godel: His overall game performance has been spotty and scummy, which is why I’m voting for him. He put Not_Mafia at L1 which is town points, but Not_Mafia IMMEDIATELY came in with his fakeclaim -like two minutes later- which of course puts a temporary halt to any lynching activities. There is room for this to be an organized effort to make Godel look town. I think his fishing for a claim from Acid was really questionable. Also N_M’s claim gave Godel a convenient reason to unvote and potentially save his buddy while still maintaining towncred.

Vij… has all the things people have been scumreading her for, plus the smokescreen thing I pointed out in 921. I just freaking balk at it, and I DON’T KNOW WHY. It’s driving me nuts. Maybe it’s my intuition, maybe it’s my pride. All I know is that whatever my issue is there, it’s fucked up my play this entire day phase and I give up.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Oh yeah. If he wasn't obvious about his partners, then that means we're looking at Raya (who did not state a definitive personal opinion about anything in the game until she was 22 posts into the game, and even then it was still "I don't want to vote for Inferno, but his behavior was anti town." I have no definitive REASON for scumreading her, but it is a possibility). Gorny (who, on rereading, I'm actually pretty okay with townreading), and Tywin (yeah no).

[Sunlit Diamond]

Also I referred to Vij in that post because I'm referring purely to events in D1. I'm still processing D2 and what Math has posted so that part will happen tomorrow.

[Sunlit Diamond]

That didn't help my read of you at all.

there was one post where you seemed to be doing the opposite, remember these where just random notes i mainly made for myself

Find this place.

yes people where asking you questions and you replied

Responding to questions is scummy? As far as I'm aware there wasn't a single question asked of me in D1 that I did not respond to.

you could have done it in a way where you are not trying to buddy up as much

I tried. Like dozens of times prior to that post, I tried. You're painting NAI frustration as AI and it's not great.

yes but lets be honest, could it have come off as more white knighting

Yes it could have. I acknowledged as much. I did it anyway, because the game was at a stand-still. I'm also not the only person who tried to address it.

he hinted at being doc unless he actually out right claims it I wouldn't mention it maybe the mafia missed it, i mean other players did miss it, you see where I am comming from

I actually do not in the slightest. Gorny straight up said "I can't be Doctor in a game where..." That isn't a subtle claim, that's straight up red flag in your face, especially with Not_Mafia's claim after. It automatically necessitates conversation to ensure we aren't lynching a PR.

so because I don't post a lot my posts get ignored, that seems stupid, also considering that you asked me about my reply and missed it i am again having a deja vu with not reading properly

Have you considered that your reply might have had exactly zero impact on my read of you, and therefore I saw no reason to respond to it?

I don't think my activity has been that bad, yeah my VLA sucked but after that I think I have had a pretty good track record. also why do you feel the need to attack me on a completely different vector instead of replying to my initial complaint of you skimming the thread. diveriosn much

Um. I directly refuted your supposed frustration with me. You're equating two things that aren't equal.

I can say that Inferno's game in D2 has been different. I am not sure how I feel about that yet." I was referring to this

Considering how hard I have townread him, this is hardly a blip on the radar.

yep and it was sucky, like i mentioned I don't mind if you use PoE to limit your suspect pool but come up with better reasons to lynch someone than that

I have explicitly stated that lynching someone on PoE is bad and that I was frustrated. What is your point?

[Sunlit Diamond]

odd that you accuse me of fishing considering how many people have actually fished this game

Yours cast doubt on Acid's read, thus forcing him to claim his PR and get nightkilled. Not odd at all.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Because my read on you was dumb and sparked by frustration, bad reads, and pride.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I AM AT L-1

I am a VT.

Someone hammer me and get this the fuck over with.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Oh wait I misread the list. Jesus fuck what is wrong with my play this game? >_<

Either way. I'm clearly not going to get it together to play this game properly, so vote me, hammer me, and move on to something more productive than arguing about why I tried to help Inferno, or why I got frustrated with my reads. Thank you.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Godel:

doesn't do a lot of scum hunting in the next couple of posts and just barley engages in the game while getting prodded.

This looks like "this behavior is scummy to me."

could be interprted as a way to pro long the tunneling

"Could be"? Why are you dancing around your reads?

how the hell did we get here,

Because my hydra offer came after a long line of attempts of trying to help inferno and redirect conversation. Why is this difficult to follow unless you're being deliberately obtuse?

no but other players didn't do it in a fashion that so clearly tried to show that they are pro town

Do you really, honestly believe scum would be that blatant? Like. When I flip, please revisit this statement.

yeah i don't feel like getting into a fishing debate with you since this would just be a pain

Why?

to be honest not really, you think coasting in a game is AI, I think skimming in a game is AI, see how they are related.

I think coasting when it's obvious town needs activity is AI. And again: Missing two letters in a post is not skimming, it's simple human error.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I invariably scum read the fucking PR. -.-

[Sunlit Diamond]

UNVOTE:

[Sunlit Diamond]

Vanilla could mean goon or VT, correct? Except Gorny's coming across pretty steady as town.

Which means we're down to Math and Raya. Joy.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Math, why are you voting for Raya and not for me?

[Sunlit Diamond]

You have been scumreading me. You're saying we need to consolidate. There need to be 4 people to lynch, and I already have 2. The logical choice WOULD be to vote me, not the lurker. So....what changed, how, why, and all that jazz?

[Sunlit Diamond]

Why would you do that??

Oh my good gravy.

[Sunlit Diamond]

VOTE: Math

I'm not buying it.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I think it's interesting that you and I are both convinced we're a liability to town. Not in a "tossing shade" kind of way.

I also think lynching you today would be a giant mistake. You're an investigative PR- if Math and Raya aren't scum, the actual scum are going to want you dead before LyLo. Therefore we can safely assume you will eat a night kill, probably tonight. With that assumption in place, then we would be better off examining other lynch possibilities.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I don't see power lynching Raya happening today.

That said, if she is scum I'm going to be pissed on several different levels.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I think it's interesting that you and I are both convinced we're a liability to town. Not in a "tossing shade" kind of way.

I also think lynching you today would be a giant mistake. You're an investigative PR- if Math and Raya aren't scum, the actual scum are going to want you dead before LyLo. Therefore we can safely assume you will eat a night kill, probably tonight. With that assumption in place, then we would be better off examining other lynch possibilities.

For the first part, i am an actual liability as detailed in my post, and for the second part read my post again with the 2 options i think i was pretty clear about the potential out comes.(yes I am asking you to read the post twice cus you seem to be skimming again)

Pedit: YAY Thanks

For fuck's sake I am not skimming. -_-

[Sunlit Diamond]

I think it's interesting that you and I are both convinced we're a liability to town. Not in a "tossing shade" kind of way.

I also think lynching you today would be a giant mistake. You're an investigative PR- if Math and Raya aren't scum, the actual scum are going to want you dead before LyLo. Therefore we can safely assume you will eat a night kill, probably tonight. With that assumption in place, then we would be better off examining other lynch possibilities.

For the first part, i am an actual liability as detailed in my post, and for the second part read my post again with the 2 options i think i was pretty clear about the potential out comes.(yes I am asking you to read the post twice cus you seem to be skimming again)

Pedit: YAY Thanks

For fuck's sake I am not skimming. -_-

then you just ignored all my reason why the mafia probably wont kill me tonight?

Disagreement is not a crime.

Also: are you asking me this because you think I'm scum, or because you think I'm stupid? What possible fucking motivation could scum!me have in this scenario?

[Sunlit Diamond]

You hugely over reacted to one small piece of doubt. I get it- I'm really sick of everything I've done being questioned. However, by self voting you muddied waters that didn't need to be muddied.

[Sunlit Diamond]

This game is actively putting me in a bad mood, I'll check back in a few hours.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Sunlit Diamond wrote:
This game is actively putting me in a bad mood, I'll check back in a few hours.
Why do you think I self voted.

I'll address the rest when I've had coffee and I'm at a computer.

This is why I asked y'all to lynch me. I was .02 seconds from replacing out due to frustration and I realized that it would serve town ten times better to get my flip than to have to deal with a replacement. Only...everyone is scum reading me and no one will vote. So fuck it.

[Sunlit Diamond]

So I'm going to do some deep dive setup speculation:

First setup speculation: Doctor/odd-night rolecop vs 2 goon setup.

If the rolecop found the Doctor, he couldn't actually claim the read without getting them both nightkilled. The Doctor might figure out the Rolecop is a PR and protect him, but Town would gain nothing from the investigation. So why would this setup even exist? We can safely nix it from consideration.


Second setup speculation: Doctor / odd-night rolecop / x-shot Tracker/Watcher type vs 2 goon setup.

This one makes a little more sense, given that Doctor/Tracker vs 2 goons is in Matrix6 and it seems fairly balanced. I chose Watcher/Tracker specifically because you are a rolecop- from what I've read in the game reviews forums it makes sense that your compatriot would be limited in both what they learn and in how many times they use it- you're essentially sharing a single role across two slots. In this scenario, that secondary role would have no reason to investigate you in Night 2 - they wouldn't learn anything they didn't already know from your claim. Therefore, self-voting to avoid that "wasted action" is poorly thought out at best.


Third setup speculation:

Doctor / odd-night rolecop vs scum pr / goon

This one makes me squint when I examine it more closely, because the options for scum PR are pretty limited. Another x-shot rolecop perhaps, but why? An encryptor would also make sense. Perhaps an x-shot roleblocker, but in my amateur mind that feels like it would be town-sided. Regardless, of the three I've gone over so far, this is the most likely if you are Town. Therefore it is EXTREMELY likely that town!you will get NKed tonight. In fact...I would go so far as to say that if you are NOT NKed tonight, then....


Fourth setup speculation:

Doctor / some limited Town investigative vs full rolecop (you) / goon

I'm not sure what role would balance this setup. Potentially a Neapolitan or a 1-shot full cop. If you were a scum!rolecop it would explain why you are so certain you will not be night killed and why you are so quick to jump on the sacrificial self vote. As town, that decision was an absurd overreaction. As scum, it's a calculated move to push people AWAY from voting for you.


Either you're a Town PR who can out a scum PR and will therefore eat a nightkill so we can focus on lynching people who are actually scum, you're a town PR who can potentially be confirmed by another town PR tomorrow (presumably by finding the actual scum), or you're a scum PR who is going to have a hell of a time defending yourself in LyLo. THEREFORE. Lynching you today is not a good idea.

[Sunlit Diamond]

As town, that decision was an absurd overreaction. As scum, it's a calculated move to push people AWAY from voting for you.

Before anyone jumps on me for doing the exact same thing:

A) I'm not a PR
B) Most of the active players are scum reading me (versus Godel, who self-voted after

one

scummy player expressed doubt to his claim.)
C) I said y'all should lynch me because it was between me and Math and my ISO would give you more information.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Off to see if I can confirm another idea I just had.

[Sunlit Diamond]

And I'm actually finding that I overestimated the impact of town PR roles, and therefore my second setup speculation is as unlikely as my first.

And: there's a problem with my fourth that I think an experienced mod could see, but I'm just gonna let it sit and see what happens.

[Sunlit Diamond]

...oh my god where is my brain.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I'm dead. Like...I literally have no idea what is wrong with my reasoning skills in this game. I can't tell if I'm distracted by life, or if the game itself threw me and I can't get my feet under me, or what, but my play. is. AWFUL.

I've dragged everything down to the point of absurdity at this point. I'm sorry. >_<

[Sunlit Diamond]

I'm utterly mortified and I know my friends are ROASTING me right now. Uuuuurgh I'm going to go cry.

[Sunlit Diamond]

And holy shit, Raya and Inferno are starting to piss me off. I really want to hear their thoughts on everything.

Embarrassment aside, this. 100% this.

Any further comments from the airhead brigade will have to wait until tonight.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Also, Math's at L-1.

[Sunlit Diamond]

As town, that decision was an absurd overreaction. As scum, it's a calculated move to push people AWAY from voting for you.

Before anyone jumps on me for doing the exact same thing:

A) I'm not a PR
B) Most of the active players are scum reading me (versus Godel, who self-voted after

one

scummy player expressed doubt to his claim.)
C) I said y'all should lynch me because it was between me and Math and my ISO would give you more information.

iIOA is bad.

Won't be on til late tonight.

We should lynch Raya.
Get rid of the lurkers.

I do not like your logic.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I realize that mine was based on a basic mistake, but I laid it out clearly.

You've been finding reasons not to lynch me for a bit now, and I'll be honest, I find that more suspicious than anything else you or your slot has done in this game. Especially when your alternative is to push a lynch on a lurker who might be replaced before the phase ends.

[Sunlit Diamond]

You spent a decent amount of time casting shade at me. Then you vote for a lurker instead of the top wagon just prior to saying we should consolidate votes. Then you magically townread me. Now you're still pushing the TOTAL lurker, while also pointing fingers at me again. Your trajectory does not make sense. At all.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I actually agree with Math. VOTE: Raya

[Sunlit Diamond]

Okay, I really do not like Math's push onto Raya.

First of all, being on V/LA isn't a scumtell and she wasn't on V/LA for the entire day so that is just false. Secondly, Inferno is actually a universal town read. None of these things really warrant an attack.

VLA isn't a scumtell, but Raya's reads are about as surface-level as you can get after being absent as long as she was, and her reason for continuing to suspect me after you explained why you townread me now sounds manufactured.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Inferno being gone doesn't mean everyone else should vanish, too...

[Sunlit Diamond]

Yay it's a Quick.

Pity that one way or another, our time in game together is short. This seems like a running theme.


People are confbiased into a wall about me. There's nothing more I can say until we have a flip, regardless of who it is.

[Sunlit Diamond]

I would wager that's exactly why quick is doing it.