♥ ♠ Open 711: Stack The Deck - Game Over ♣ ♦

[skitter30]

Sure!

VOTE: Srceenplay

@mod:

I'm always v/la on Fridays and Saturdays

Noted. - Math

[skitter30]

vote: Elmo

For ruthlessly killing me N0 in our last game together.

Why can’t you use VOTE: tags like everyone else?
Does it help your scum game to be slightly more discrete using bold votes?

Why are you trying to tie his voting method to his alignment?

[skitter30]

Reaper's entrance is easily the worst so far. Like I get that it's so overly trolly it's bordering on impossible to analyse but it's also annoying

I want to see more content from A50.

Probs liking Srceenplay the most so far

I agree that Reaper's posts are awful.

I don't understand why you've singled out A50 to provide more content when multiple people have provided similar levels of content (or less).

I rather dislike screen atm tbh. Why do you like him?

[skitter30]

A50 is talking lots but not saying much, he stuck out more to me than others from a skimread. Who would you say has contributed less so far (excluding single posters and those who haven't rocked up yet)?

I had been including the single-posters, but outside of them, I feel like Montosh's posts have been fairly similar to those of A50.

This isn't like a bad thing since when they both posted it was still kinda RVS, but I thought it was odd that you called out A50 in particular given that it was RVS and since you could've easily said the same thing about other players as well.

p-edit: yeah I see that Montosh has posted while I was writing this.

[skitter30]

There's every chance I'm wrong.

But given skitter has asked the poignant question

and seems to have reservations about it being obv scum too I'm happy to wait and see if I was right on the ToS thing.

I'm not sure what the bolded refers to?

I agree with Montosh in that the Salem reference was likely a reference to a witch-hunt in general, and not to ToS specifically (although I suppose the game was so named as a reference to Salem).

I'm not sure if the Reaper thing is an RVS gimmick that will be dropped shortly, or if he plans on playing as such all game. I definitely think that more posts from him are necessary before I can come to a conclusion.

Either way, I think that speculating on how his behavior might relate to ToS wrt to potential PR-ness probably isn't the best idea right now tbh. (wrt to 64 and 74)

[skitter30]

You can put Espeonage on the same list as reaper as well.

Why is Espeonage on the same list as reaper? Like are you pushing him as PL (like reaper), or you find him scummy, or ...?

And that is a completely serious vote. Only happened because of friendship with boon otherwise it would just be null vi behaviour.

People in the group you refer to will lolhammer day1 as town as well, so I'm not sure why you're viewing this is AI *because* he's part of that group? I agree that it's anti-town as fuck, but I don't think it's inherently AI unfortunately, given that I've seen Boon and others lolhammer as town day1.

(Source: here and here)

(I can prob find more if you need me to, but this is what I remembered off the top of my head)

So Espeonage stop trying to fake town emotional frustration.

I kinda agree with this tbh. I think that Esp's either making an uninformed push (ie that he believes that members of that group will only lolhammer as scum and therefore screen is scummy) or a disingenuous one (ie that he's aware that they do this as town too and he's pushing it anyways). I'm tending towards thinking the latter atm tbh.

Esp's framing this as being *both* scummy and pl-worthy. Like which is it? Do you think he's town doing something idiotic and p-l worthy (in which case, why are you framing this as something inherently scummy because of who he likes to play with), or do you think he's actually scummy (in which case, why are you frustrated with him - you think he's scum)? Overall, the frustration feels kinda over the top and fake to me.

I kinda feel like you're leaving both options open atm.

But don't try to remove culpability from yourself by saying something along the lines of "well I did warn them I'd hammer for absolutely no reason so there". This actually reduces our ability to gain info.

I don't know if he's trying to remove culpability from himself for it?

Tbh, it seems to me more like he's announcing what he's going to do and is willing to live with the consequences, whatever they may be, because he thinks that removing reaper from the game is more important than the fallout. I didn't get the vibe that he's trying to make himself unculpable so much as he inherently doesn't care whether or not people view him as culpable.

VOTE: Almost50 - that BG-claim was always there as a backup-strat.
He is the traitor and tried to crumb it - trusting my gut here.

???????

He's pretty much self-resolving. What's the point of this? Like if he isn't dead in a few days I def would revisit this, but it's prob going to resolve itself before then, so I don't really see the point of spending much time or effort trying to sort him atm; I'm just going to treat him as town for today and revisit it if he isn't dead soon-ish.

[skitter30]

Reaper is not a PL.
The PL is who I’m voting now.
Espeonage I might be changing my mind on. I love let you know if I decide to swap them out.

a) Why do you want to insta-hammer reaper if it isn't a PL?

b) Why exactly did you want to PL lego again?

---

The post you referred to as being a Traitor claim was actually a BodyGuard strong crumb. Bad Guy, Bob Geldof, Brian Gleeson, Brad Garrett. Brad Garrett isn't even Irish to the best of my knowledge.

I almost believe this until:

VOTE: Almost50 - that BG-claim was always there as a backup-strat.
He is the traitor and tried to crumb it - trusting my gut here.

I feel like this is probably much more likely.

This almost reads like you were fine with A50's claim *until* Una objected to it, at which point you decided to hop onto that push as well.

Like what does 'until' mean? You wouldn't have had a problem with it if Una didn't say he thought he was a traitor?

Bodyguards do not need to crumb; it is not an investigative role. Claiming bodyguard has no benefits to the town. The type of crumb you did is almost impossible to notice unless pointed out. This means the only purpose of it is to receive town cred at any time of your choosing.

This is only done when you anticipate being scum read. You had no reason to think that if that post wasn't intended to be a traitor wink to your scum buddies.

So, are you arguing that only investigative roles can/should crumb? Like are you saying that if he did the exact same thing except claiming Goon Cop instead of BG you would have been fine accepting it? I don't understand why you're basing much of your argument on the fact that he's a BG and not some other (investigative) PR.

Like isn't that the whole point of a crumb - almost impossible to notice unless pointed out?

I don't really understand the bolded - you're arguing that he anticipated being scumread so he decided to crumb BG and at the same time crumb traitor? Like why make the traitor crumb at all just then which could easily backfire on him? Does this theory still hold if he was groupscum and not a traitor?

You don’t vote claimed BG day 1 no matter how much you think you scum read them.
You get a town lean for your bad Vote. Scum would never try that.

We'll lynch him tomorrow then.

And tbh, I think scum probably would try it if it looked likely to happen.

Why are you still voting him ...?

But in its current state, your claim just screams desperate scum.

I don't get it. Why is he

desperate

scum? Why was he so desperate at the time that he felt the need to set all of this up?

VOTE: Mutant

[skitter30]

@Mutant: After reading your recent posts, I understand where you're coming from now (namely, context of your past games with A50 and context of past situations where you'd seen people crumb), and feel more comfortable with your objection to A50's claim - I initially didn't like it because I felt like you were taking the oppurtunity to just hop on una's initial push, which I think was rather bad too.

I do however think that quibbling over A50 right now is kinda silly given that he's probably self-resolving (and would revisit this if he isn't like dead in ~2-3 days).

A50's reactions stink but I agree there is an opportunistic feel about the reactions (particularly Mutant).

So after going through the whole interaction between Mutant and A50, I actually got the opposite impression and felt like he was being rather honest and transparent in his push and his reasoning for it.

UNVOTE:


In contrast, I do not like Una's initial push much at all. It was a weird accusation to begin with - he was crumbing traitor but back-up crumbed bg in case he got caught? It's just kinda an outlandish accusation to make in the first place imo, and I don't really like una's followup either tbh:

UNVOTE:
At least we got some conversation out of it.

Anybody else want to make a sketchy claim and then talk themselves out of it? (in all honesty though, I'll try to read peoples reactions to that claim tonight)

So the purpose of this was reaction-testing? Like you made an accusation that you think he was a traitor crumbing BG as a backup, and after the fallout, you hop off just saying that you're happy people talked about it? Your reaction here doesn't really jive with your initial accusation imo.

I think your reaction to A50's claim was the worst tbh, so I think I want to do this for now.

VOTE: Una

[skitter30]

:/ Saying lol reactions doesn't gel with my reasons for thinking you're town.

OK, why did you think reaper was town?

[skitter30]

By that, I mean, that he is my only scum feely person right now... the rest of you are fairly null reads for now. Just at a quick glance over the game.

Why aren't you voting him then?

[skitter30]

@Esp: got it lol

[skitter30]

hmm Lego checking vote counts is against his town meta!
(just kidding )

I think your reaction to A50's claim was

the worst

tbh, so I think I want to do this for now.

I sat here for like a minute before I realised you weren't talking about me

I like your post there Skitter. if it's normal for Mutant to "try hard" and lay down large kinda inductive cases then I'm comfortable that his approach was towny.
A Una wagon feels pretty good. VOTE: UnaBombaH

lol, sorry, I'll try not to do that again

I don't know if it's normal for mutant to lay down those sorts of cases; I've never played with him. However, I do like his transparency and the thought process exhibited in his posts and I feel like that's enough to unvote him for now.

Why are you interested in Una?

[skitter30]

His BG-explanation didn't convince me, but since everyone else left the wagon, me hanging on makes no sense and helps no one.

To summarize: you accuse A50 of crumbing traitor and vote him, and a few people hop on and/or agree with you. After much discussion, the wagon fizzles out and you unvote because 'at least it got people talking'. I ask you about that and vote you, and you vote the worst, who's sheeping me.

Can you clarify this for me? How does unvoting the guy who you think is crumbing traitor 'helpful' given that you didn't even follow your unvote with a vote on someone else? Like you're basically saying that you thought it was more beneficial to town to unvote the guy you think is crumbing traitor and leave your vote on no one than to keep your vote on the guy you think is crumbing traitor.

it still doesn't mean he didn't. But. Assume he IS the traitor, the scum might still shoot him now, or at least they SHOULD, so that should resolve itself.

Right, that's my point. It's likely self-resolving, so voting him today is kinda silly imo, and I don't really understand why you did it in the first place.

You never specified that in your post. You simply said you are voting for them because they turned on you. That comes across as OMGUS.

Bolding for your pleasure:

Oh, also - skitter or the worst is actually scum for turning to me

like that

.

VOTE: the worst

The only reason I named skitter was because at that time I wasn't sure who which voted first..

OK, so if you think the worst is scummy for opportunistically sheeping me, what do you think about my initial push on you?

[skitter30]

And you could also see it as an attempt to crumb as cop ("law enforcement work extra then"), which please bear in mind if anyone else claims cop or if he does.

I noticed that actually, but was hesitating to bring it up in case he really is crumbing cop. I actually kinda think that he was doing it to crumb traitor, as follows:

VOTE: Almost50 - that BG-claim was always there as a backup-strat.
He is the traitor and tried to crumb it - trusting my gut here.

Here he's announcing that he thinks A50 is crumbing traitor and back-up crumbing BG in case he gets caught, which in imo is kinda outlandish to begin with. Taken with his first post, it kinda looks to me like he crumbed cop in order to get himself shot at so he could show his buddies he's the traitor, with the cop-crumb as a back-up strat:

it still doesn't mean he didn't. But. Assume he IS the traitor, the scum might still shoot him now, or at least they SHOULD, so that should resolve itself.

And coupled with the fact that he's not super into the A50-traitor thing (as shown by how he casually jumped off of it), it seems semi-plausible to me that his A50 push was an attempt by traitor!unah to signal to his buddies, and not an actual legit push on A50.

I was debating posting this, in case he actually *is* town and crumbed cop; I didn't especially want to out cop!una on page 10 or whatever. But lego brought it up, so other people noticed it too, and the more he posts the less I think that's a thing, as I don't much like his reaction to my push on him tbh.

---

She votes mutant, then unvotes, jumping onto Una. I definitely agree that Una's whole reaction to A50 is a bit odd, but couldn't this be an attempt to bus early in the game? Is this town v town, or am I reading too much into this? Personally, I'm worried about whether we have a Una - Skitter scum team with someone else as traitor. Another thing, I'm basically policy lynching srceenplay. I don't like his playstyle of throwing D1, and he comes over as odd to me. Scummy type of odd. As I said previously IIRC anyone more lynch worthy coming along gets my vote happily. I want some discussion on Una - skitter first.

If you think me/una are scum, vote one of us and explain why. It's not such a great look to say that we might be scumbuddies, or we might be tvt, you're not really sure, but at the end of all that, you're ultimately voting a PL that several other people stated they want to PL instead of voting a scumread.

[skitter30]

Paranoia about the state of a case (TvT/TvS/SvS) and inability to form an opinion about it is a newbtown tell to me

But yes I'd like to hear your thoughts on this Lego.

I detest being a sheep but Skitter is speaking right into my soul.

If it's between Una/Srceen Una is the correct player to pressure at this point.

Srceen is difficult to read but I'm leaning towards rude-null-town and not rude-scum. I'm getting a "why would Maf enter the game this way" kinda vibe.

A lot of Lego's posts are very waffly though. He isn't taking hard stances on much of anything, and has mostly been pushing pl's and lurkers instead of scumreads for most of the game. And when he does actually talk about scumreads - srceen, una, me, to a certain extent, Esp, he uses very waffly language that leaves him a lot of room to backtrack on like all of them, and doesn't really seem committed to any particular stances.

Also phrases like the bolded make me kinda nervous lol. I know that I get pocketed sometimes, and that sort of read on me is how it tends to happen.

Slightly agreeing with you on srceen for now, but my read on him changes like each time he posts.

[skitter30]

Whenever I think about the Screenplay wagon, all I see is this:

And that deters me from it.

Hey now Im one of those players. SO why are we not lynching Screen today

Who says we weren't?

Can you clarify your position on the srceen wagon please?

---

I WANT TO BE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR HERE - THERE IS STILL NO REASON TO ACCEPT AS A FACT WHAT A50 HAS CLAIMED HERE. THE ONLY REASON NOT TO WAGON HIM TODAY, IS BECAUSE HE HAS CLAIMED A TOWN-PR WHICH IS OF A NATURE THAT SHOULD RESOLVE ITSELF WITHIN FEW NIGHTS.

Right, this is my point, so I don't really get why you started the wagon in the first place.

So keeping that in mind, I think mutant easing off here, and basing it on a self-meta post, could actually be scummy

I think the way you stopped pushing A50 was scummier imo.

---

I'm finding it really easy to townread Lego

Why? I see very little to townread. The only reason he isn't a hard scumread right now is because I'm not sure if I'm conflating newer-player behaviors with scummy behaviors.

---

Math
Espeonage

Who's Math? And what do you like about Espeonage?

Also, you've played with creature a lot, right? At what point do we start worrying about his lack of content?

[skitter30]

Lol, I mean I know who you are, but presumably he isn't giving a read on you

[skitter30]

Lol, I mean I know who you are, but presumably he isn't giving a read on you

It's a classic scumslip by a lazy scumster

So, when I saw that, I assumed it was an auto-correct type thing like mono = montosh (hence I asked 'who's math?', not 'why is math in this list'?), but apparently he really did mean math, so yeah that does make it rather worse. I'm on the fence atm as to whether he would be that careless as scum; I need to think about it a bit.

Also I'm feeling a little bit hesitant about the srceen wagon cuz a bunch of people I'm reading as somewhere in the 'null-scum to scum' range (elmo, lego, and esp) on are on it, which makes me wary.

---

We just finished a town game together, I think im very light confbias a town read based on that

Do you think he's playing similarly here to his towngame there? It looks like Una was in that game as well. Any thoughts on una in comparison to that game?

---

Yes creature lurking could be scum.

Yeah, I'm beginning to think that might be a possibility.

[skitter30]

Also I'm feeling a little bit hesitant about the srceen wagon cuz a bunch of people I'm reading as somewhere in the 'null-scum to scum' range (elmo, lego, and esp) on are on it, which makes me wary.

I'm comfortable TRing everyone on the srceen wagon except for Elmo, but even if she is Scum she is not afraid to bus, so..

The only person on the wagon that I'm maybe townreading is montosh. I don't especially consider you a townread in the sense of 'I think A50's town and therefore believe his opinions are coming from a town mindset'. My read on you is 'Eh, the claim gives him a pass for today and if he isn't dead in around ~2-3 days we're going to have to lynch him'. Like I don't think you're town on play, more like you're getting a pass because of the claim, so your presence doesn't really make the wagon look much better to me.

Lego I really don't like; his whole ISO is waffly and his post about scum!lego and not posting a defense is kinda ick. Esp's earlyish posts I didn't much like because he seemed kinda overly focused on PL's, PR-hunting, and traitor hunting, and he hasn't really done much to make me change that opinion. I don't like Elmo's reaction to screen's vote on her and her vote on him is kinda OMGUS-y tbh.

I consider Creature to be the Vig's problem, tbh. Not necessarily on N1, but sometime before LyLo

I don't know if a vig necessarily exists to handle that tbh. (Namely, I don't necessarily ascribe to your 'scum will have picked 3 abilities' theory).

I thought I voted Una,by the vote count apparently not so VOTE: Una

OK, this is kinda an awkwardly-timed vote ...

Ladies and gentlemen; I present you with the distancing partner who has been on the srceen wagon for distancing, and as soon as it got serious switched to the counterwagon.

Um, yeah that vote switch was actually really bad.

I don't know if I'm explicitly scumreading Srceen atm, but Lego doesn't look super good to me right now. IE I agree that the Lego/Screen associatives are kinda awful, but I don't think I independantly scumread screen right now, but I do scumread Lego.

VOTE: Lego

[skitter30]

Una I've only played one day phase with him but I have an uncomfortable feeling here... Have you played with Una before? What are your thoughts?

On Una in general - if he's scum I think he's the traitor.

I've only played one game with Una ~6 months ago and I was scum and didn't have to sort him. I only remember him being in that game at all because ~2-3 weeks ago I reread large chunks of it to try to meta someone else; I don't really think I can meta him tbh.

[skitter30]

OK, no reason to panic this obviously even if people are starting to notice your scummyness..

Tbh I'm a little bit surprised that you completely glossed over the fact that I'm saying I think you might be the traitor.

----

He seems scummy but he's also an easy lynch. I think he's just naturally scummy looking. I'm not sure whether I genuinely consider him scum this game but if he's going to get mislynched eventually then we may as well get it over with in the hope that he is scum this time.

I don't much like this post :/

It's waffly and fence-sitty and kinda looks like you're looking for mislynches and like you're OK with just accepting Srceen as a mislynch instead of trying to like sort him.

----

Lego is the only one of your 3 I can read as scum atm

When did this happen? I thought you were mostly townreading him?

----
@A50

Spoiler:

You are not a confirmed town.

What the freak does this have to do with anything? None of us is confirmed, and even IF someone does get confirmed it doesn't mean their reads are 100%. YOU, sir, are trying to grasp a straws to discredit me bc you know I caught you and AT LEAST one Scum p here. Your defense doesn't even come across as remotely reasonable.

"You're not confirmed". You mean if I somehow get confirmed you should be lynched? Would you claim Scum then?? If not, WHAT does my confirmation status has to do with the matter??

The only person on the wagon that I'm maybe townreading is montosh. I don't especially consider you a townread in the sense of 'I think A50's town and therefore believe his opinions are coming from a town mindset'. My read on you is 'Eh, the claim gives him a pass for today and if he isn't dead in around ~2-3 days we're going to have to lynch him'. Like I don't think you're town on play, more like you're getting a pass because of the claim, so your presence doesn't really make the wagon look much better to me.

I basically said the same thing so I'm not sure why you're taking exception to Srceen saying it but not when I said it?

Also for Creature, he's been active recently (ie this morning) elsewhere on site and in other games; it kinda looks like he's actively avoiding this one.

And he's known to hard-lurk as scum so ...

[skitter30]

Srceen is arguing I'm not confirmed a Townie YET I'm pushing wagons instead of trying to consolidate a global TR on me. I say that's exactly how SCUM would want to go about it. In any given game, and aside from there being an IC, literally no one is confirmed. Are we all supposed to NOT push our SRs but rather try to get TR'd instead???!!!

I would argue that a townie ought to do both - try to get townread to take themselves out of the potential lynchpool to make PoE easier for everyone else, in addition to pushing scumreads to get them lynched. But this might just be a playstyle/philosophical difference, so meh.

And for Creature:
2- fair.
3 - I agree with you on not wanting to lynch him today for a variety of reasons, especially on the lack of associatives. And I kinda want to lynch like half the game atm so I don't really think he's the optimal lynch choice for that reason - that's why I'm not voting him. But I do think that the fact that he's hard-lurking and it's sketchy ought to be emphasized even if it doesn't culminate in a lynch today. If a vig exists it is def a good idea to shoot him imo.

@ Screen: Also I forgot to say that sitting on your lone Creature vote but saying you're willing to vote Lego but not actually doing it while a wagon is forming is kinda :/

But I can kinda see what you're saying about feeling manipulated into it; I'm seeing some analogues to Boon baiting me to vote him in TIAM's mini, if you recall that.

[skitter30]

Yes skitter and boon was scum.

VOTE: LEGO

Right, and that's part of the reason why I'm not townbinning A50 so much as sticking him in the 'I probably don't have to sort' pile.

[skitter30]

Welcome Sky! Welcome Jay!

---
I'm going to say that the general consensus for a Screen lynch is making me kinda wary of it right now. In this gamestate, the overall consensus and general complacency of Screen's wagon/lynch feels kinda wrong tbh. There's like no resistance to it, and it just feels very off.

---

When these reads were questioned, provoked a vote on Creature who had just been prodded.

To me a vote on one of Screenplay's supposed scum reads would have been more natural; this looks like a reactionary vote attempting to divert focus to an afk player (that is less likely to defend themselves) rather than a real effort at scumhunting.

I'm pretty sure for Creature in particular actively choosing to ignore the game while being active onsite elsewhere *is* the scumtell. Like I'm pretty it's not that Screen happened to pick Creature, one of the group of AFK players, so much as he thinks Creature ignoring the game makes him more significantly more likely to be scum.

---

Subsequently I disagree with Skitter's 265 and do wonder the motivation behind it.

I'm not sure what you're asking me to clarify here? I rather disliked that Lego post because it continued a general pattern of waffling from him.

---

Looking on to the Current wagon of Screenplay (Yes I see his real username and declare it to stupid too type): reading on his stuff, I'm definitely saying he's scum. He started off alright, but now he's doing insults and making shitty readlists, saying he "mixed up games"as his excuse, but if he was really an invested townie, he would have paid more attention. Probably lazy (and salty) scum that got called out.

And both replacements coming in and wanting to vote / voting Screen is part of the reason why I'm getting this overall vibe of complecancy that's making me kinda wary of the wagon. Like it's an easy push to make for both of them to make, and a lot of people are just vote-parking the wagon and it's feeling kinda off/stale/complacent at this point.
---

correction, he was saying it like he said for Creature/me, just on the opposite sides of his list. Saying that the Reaper/Sky slot is scum.

It looks like he just sorted the Activity overview into alphabetical order and went down the list on everyone who's posted in the game. Not sure what you're saying here.

[skitter30]

@Sky

I feel like I addressed a lot of those things already so I'm just going to quote the relevant parts of my ISO and add clarification if I feel necessary.

Spoiler:

In my catch-up I skimmed through and I seemed to recall somebody saying that Creature was generally absent all over the site and that him flaking this game was therefore not AI. I may be mistaken, but that's the reason why I feel a vote against Creature for the reason of being afk is poor. I do think that Creature's initial posts were holistic and the lack of RVS vote despite being present raised flags.

Also for Creature, he's been active recently (ie this morning) elsewhere on site and in other games; it kinda looks like he's actively avoiding this one.

1- I didn't know he posted elsewhere. My bad.

He was posting elsewhere and deliberately ignored this thread after he got prodded.
----

You said that Lego was waffling and pushing votes on afk players; I disagreed because I feel that Lego's voting analysis is on point. YMMV, I enjoy players explaining why they think certain things.

I wondered why you picked up Lego for this; at the time Lego was voting for Screenplay and your post says he was pushing an afk slot.

That's not my interpretation of it.
Could you please clarify your position on Lego at this time?

Why? I see very little to townread. The only reason he isn't a hard scumread right now is because I'm not sure if I'm conflating newer-player behaviors with scummy behaviors.

he uses very waffly language that leaves him a lot of room to backtrack on like all of them, and doesn't really seem committed to any particular stances.

This basically. In a lot of his posts, he'll support both sides of a debate without picking a side (249 with my comments in 251), or state a scumread without voting (209), or decide to vote a PL instead of someone he says he scumreads (135 sets up a scumread on screen, which he then waffles on, and then votes a lurker PL.). I feel a general lack of conviction and follow-through from him.

My main hesitation is that I think I might be conflating new-ness with scumminess.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by the bolded.

---

Which of the votes against Screen do you dislike and why?

♥ Srceenplay (5) (L-2): Montosh, Espeonage, Elmo TeH AzN, Almost50, Sky_Paladin

As of last night (ie when I wrote the following) the wagon was the same except your vote wasn't on it and lego's was and I wrote:

The only person on the wagon that I'm maybe townreading is montosh. I don't especially consider you a townread in the sense of 'I think A50's town and therefore believe his opinions are coming from a town mindset'. My read on you is 'Eh, the claim gives him a pass for today and if he isn't dead in around ~2-3 days we're going to have to lynch him'. Like I don't think you're town on play, more like you're getting a pass because of the claim, so your presence doesn't really make the wagon look much better to me.

Lego I really don't like; his whole ISO is waffly and his post about scum!lego and not posting a defense is kinda ick. Esp's earlyish posts I didn't much like because he seemed kinda overly focused on PL's, PR-hunting, and traitor hunting, and he hasn't really done much to make me change that opinion. I don't like Elmo's reaction to screen's vote on her and her vote on him is kinda OMGUS-y tbh.

Besides for maybe elmo's, I don't know if of the votes *themselves* are inherently bad; it's more the people on the wagon that I'm having trouble with. Like the only person I'm kinda townreading (ie on play and not for role reasons) is montosh, so the wagon as a whole feels kinda off. Like it seems to me like nearly everyone wants to lynch screen or is OK with it. There's like no resistance to it, and a whole bunch of people I find null or scummy seem to want it, and people replacing in are complacent with it. Like there's too much consensus, and it feels wrong in this gamestate for this many people to be OK with it.

So I guess to answer your question: I don't like elmo's vote in particular and I don't like the wagon composition in general.

[skitter30]

I'm somewhat invested in the fact that he twice townread Math?

Anytime somebody is caught out with their reads it insta-points to them having fabricated their reads,

and lynch-all-liars is one of the hardest policies to argue against. I'd like to have more than this though. One factor I'm adding to this is his comments about planning to hammer anybody who got to L-1 and not attribute any malice or reasoning to it. To me this looks like a message that this player is the scum traitor, and that he wants some way of communicating to his buddies so that they don't accidentally shoot him. So yes, I think this implies that scum did not recruit traitor!screen.

Honestly, I'm not sure if I agree with the bolded. I can point to townies being careless with readslists and making mistakes like that (like forgetting to include their biggest scumread); to me, having Math in his readslists looks like a 'I'm not paying super much attention' tell, and I don't think that's inherently AI tbh.

Like the complaints against him I kinda feel like are playstyle differences or him being careless, but I don't know if any of those things are inherently scummy.

The L-1 / hammering thing I can see him doing as town tbh; I've seen people (especially people who play with Boon a lot) doing that a lot recently (iirc I actually linked in my ISO somewhere some instances of townies in that group of players quickhammering day1).

Like you also kinda say that you're OK with something similar happening:

I am not against a quickhammer on day 1; in every game I can ever recall playing, the first wagon of the day was usually on scum.

And I don't really get why that would be a traitor-tell in any case (as opposed to a general scumtell).

[skitter30]

I think hes mislynch bait at this time but really I dont see him as bad scum. Unless its really bad scum.

Who is this talking about?

[skitter30]

Yeah, I thought so.

@elmo: why are you voting someone you consider 'mislynch bait'?

[skitter30]

Statements like these make me feel like he's been the designated lynch of the day, regardless of his alignment. I don't really think he's done anything PL worthy, and I don't like how everyone is just settling on him cuz why not.

Like just look at the following quotes. And a bunch of these people aren't even on his wagon. Like it's a really easy push to make right now and I feel like everyone's really happy to just sit on him.

Spoiler:

Yeah, I thought so.

@elmo: why are you voting someone you consider 'mislynch bait'?

Its also a troll. They cant get to Lylo either way,

He seems scummy but he's also an easy lynch. I think he's just naturally scummy looking. I'm not sure whether I genuinely consider him scum this game but if he's going to get mislynched eventually then we may as well get it over with in the hope that he is scum this time.

I am not against a quickhammer on day 1; in every game I can ever recall playing, the first wagon of the day was usually on scum. I don't enjoy the prospect of Not Mafia hammering before Screen gets a chance to claim however.

Lol... I have stated that I was PL voting screen in the past

Also the more I look at that mutant quote the more I really don't like it, especially because he isn't even putting his money where his mouth is and voting screen after saying that. He's contributing to this general air of complacency for the wagon du jour of the day but isn't doing anything to advance or it to take responsibility for it.

VOTE: Mutant

[skitter30]

I'm going to reiterate that I don't feel super comfortable with a screen lynch right now, and that I think that Jay's slot would be a good vig target if a vig exists.

[skitter30]

Alrighty then. Now your going to make any Investigatives not check me for fear of wasting it on a guy getting shot by a "possible" vigilante. And now I'm not going to be proven innocent ever by anyone.

Nice job skitter.

Have you even read the setup?

The catch: Town will get two power roles to start with. For every ability mafia selects, I'll deal out an extra power role to the town, to a maximum of 5. The possible power roles:
- Goon Cop
- Roleblocker
- Tracker
- Bodyguard
- Vigilante
- Innocent Child (revealed at Day 1 start)

There's only like two potential investigatives, goon cop and tracker, and unless I'm really missing something, I don't think either of them can get a hard inno tonight, so there isn't exactly a way for you to be proven innocent anyways.

And like it's weird that your response to me saying I think you ought to be vigged is to say that it would ruin a potential investigation?

Skitter this is the choice we are stuck with.

Well, I'm not entirely sure that it's binary between you and Jay given that you're at L-1 and Jay has one vote, but I think I want to vote him now too.

VOTE: Jay

[skitter30]

Skitter

There's like no resistance to it, and a whole bunch of people I find null or scummy seem to want it, and people replacing in are complacent with it. Like there's too much consensus, and it feels wrong in this gamestate for this many people to be OK with it.

So now we have Screen at L-1 and this is the point where I expect to see movement. It seems you're the only one against it so far.

IMO Town at this point would rather claim than 1v1 though.

Screen still town

Srceen's play so far has been messy and trolly but quite pro town. I'm like, confused as to why this wagon is even getting so much traction??

I don't think it's accurate to say I'm the only one against it? (Yes, they posted before L-1 happened, but literally like three posts before it and Jay had been telegraphing the vote since they replaced in)

(p-edit: the worst changed his vote while I was writing this)

To be fair Elmo's recent comment about Screen being 'not bad scum' is deeply unsettling.

Exactly, and there's been a pattern of people pushing him as PL this game. (see the quotes in 404)

[skitter30]

Spoiler: @Jay

And skitter, I don't think it says anywhere that there can't be two of the same power role. We're garunteed 2, with the possibility of having three more around. And since Innocent child is out the way already, we have five choices left. It's a pretty decent chance to have a investigative.

I didn't say that there isn't a good chance of there being an investigative. What I said was that if there's an investigative, they can't prove you innocent.

You said:

And now I'm not going to be proven innocent ever by anyone.

I'm saying that if there's an investigative, you can't be proven innocent tonight. If you're a not-recruited traitor, neither goon cop nor tracker can guilty you or inno you. If you're a recruited traitor, you can get guiltied by a tracker (if you do the kill and you're tracked to the NK) or the goon cop (I think the goon cop gets a 'goon' result on a recruited goon but I may be mistaken). If you're a groupscum goon, you can be guiltied in the same ways, but you can't be inno'd. And if you're a groupscum PR, you'll get a 'not a goon' result for goon cop (which doesn't inno you), and can be guiltied by the tracker.

My point is that logistically I don't think you can be inno'd tonight, irrespective of the particular set-up, so I'm objecting to the above quote.

Tell me. With you saying I'm the main targets for a vigilante shot, not only do the others have to stay away from me, but if there isn't a vigilante, your setting me up to already be lynched day two rather easily.

That's not something a townie should do.

I kinda want you lynched today (ie I'm objecting to you saying that I'm setting you up for tomorrow as opposed to trying to lynch you now). I'm bringing up vigging at all because A50 wouldn't let me pursue your slot while Creature was inactive and we compromised on vigging. And I'm not confident I can prevent a screen lynch from happening in this gamestate with this many players alive, so this is another way of handling your slot.

And what do you mean by the bolded?

And if there is a Vigilante, and they shoot me? With them shooting a townie who you haven't even proven isn't a possible PR themselves? That's just stupid.

Are you like softing PR? The main thing I've gotten out of this convo is that if you're scum you aren't BP.

[skitter30]

For like the sixth time:

Also for Creature, he's been active recently (ie this morning) elsewhere on site and in other games; it kinda looks like he's actively avoiding this one.

[skitter30]

For like the sixth time:

Also for Creature, he's been active recently (ie this morning) elsewhere on site and in other games; it kinda looks like he's actively avoiding this one.

I checked, and yes, he logged in tpday. But did he login before he was replaced?

Yes, he was active and logged in and posted elsewhere between the time he was prodded and the time he was replaced. Like feel free to check this for yourself if you don't believe me.

[skitter30]

GDI. How many times do I have to point out THIS IS TOTALLY NAI for Creature

My point in posting that is that multiple people were asserting he was sitewide inactive between the time he got prodded and the time he got replaced, which isn't true.

I don't really have much else to say right now other than that I don't like the screen wagon and I don't get why he's being policied instead of basing a lynch on alignment.

And even if you don't like his posting style, it's not like he's being toxic or anything like that so I don't really get why he's being policied at all tbh.

Like why are we spending a lynch on this instead of telling a potential vig to shoot him if you're that concerned about him getting to LYLO?

[skitter30]

@skitter: Him including the mod in his reads is a scumslip in my book. I'm not lynching him out of anything personal. I genuinely believe he scumslipped in an obvious way.

I guess this is where our differing POVs come from, because I don't really think that's a scumslip tbh.

[skitter30]

Yeah, he got reactions, but he got reactions that no one can follow because they're so muddled up in his attempts to create confusion.

It seems to me he's going for a "too scummy to be scum" thing. I don't like his play, it's anti-town and he's got a better of flipping scum than anyone else.

I disagree with the bolded in that I don't think that the reactions are muddled or difficult to follow.

I don't much like the posts you made last night: they feel like you're pushing a PL more than they feel like you're pushing a scumread, and a lot of your posts are IIOA and seem largely bereft of scumhunting (specifically posts like 570 or post 576). I say the latter because you kinda just summarize people's opinions without much commentary.

(@esp: like it looks like what Chip did in Jingle's micro when he was following the 'messenger' thing or trying to sort through the 'IN-claim-matchup' mess).

----

Given that actual pressure was levelled against you for that "lols" post, it seems like trolling at that point and I don't see why town would do it. I can see scum trying to muddle the waters and make it hard to read.

I thought the second time he included math was obviously for the lols. And while I agree that I don't especially see town motivation for this, I disagree that there's scum motivation for doing it - it would just lead scum!screen to have to deal with the situation he's in right now, which is kinda what he wants to avoid.

I don't think it was AI-motivated the second time, so much as lols-motivated. I don't think including the mod in a second readslist after it had already been pointed out the first time really muddies the waters; everyone knew at that point that he had included the mod in his readslist and that the mod isn't a player.

---

He abandoned you for something as pitiful as sleep. He's obvs scum for that.

Quick vote and Lynch him before anyone elsa can stop you, NotMaf. Be the true naked quickhammer voter your destined to be.

You're like trying to bait someone into lolhammering :/

---

I'm somewhere like here atm:

{a50} - only here for the claim; I don't really townread him. On play, probably either on the elmo tier or between the elmo tier and the montosh tier

{} - I feel like this ought to be a tier but no one's a strong enough read to put here

{the worst, NM}

{esp}

{screen, sky}

{} - null

{una}

{elmo, lego} - this tier and the tier below it are very, very close together

{montosh, mutant}

{Jay}

[skitter30]

skitter, you're town reading N_M for his very low effort, barely playing, trolly posts that are NAI for him?

A few of his early posts mirrored what I was thinking early-game. I'm on my phone now, but I could pull up specifics when I get onto a PC again (maybe this afternoon but prob not till tom night)

It's not that strong, but I don't have any confident townreads right now, and have way too many scumreads.

I'm treating the troll posts as noise and ignoring them.

Not going to agree or disagree with this list right now, but "bookmarking" it for later use.
I feel like this might be a forced/fabricated list - not sure what gave me that feeling.

I don't really know how to talk to you about this if you don't know why you think it's forced/fabricated.

P-edit @montosh - I'll respond after class or when I get home.

[skitter30]

On the latter post, yeah that was me starting a new one but then getting sidetracked by screen, so fair enough there. On the former though, the only way I know to scumhunt is to look at people's play and reactions to certain situations and determine if those reactions fit scum play more than town play, which was what I was doing in 570 and the previous post of that nature I made.

Also, what's IIOA?

IIOA = Information instead of analysis

I feel like a lot of your posts are just giving summaries of what happened or what other people said without really explaining why you think that post is important enough to quote/cite. I can understand why examining the game like that might make it easier for you to sort people, but a lot of those posts are simply repeating/summarizing other people's comments, and I don't really see you coming to many conclusions or indicating why those posts are significant.

@skitter: If you "feel like" Montosh is trying to push a PL, wouldn't that make Montosh likely town already, since it'd be a genuine push (as opposed to explicitly declaring it to be a PL, which could be fake)??

I'm not entirely sure I understand the distinction you're trying to make tbh.

Are you trying to argue that 'not explicitly declaring it to be a PL' inherently implies that the push is genuine because I'm getting an overall vibe of 'wanting a PL on Screen' from his posts without him explicitly stating that?

-- I'm kinda v/la on Fridays and Saturdays and won't be able to answer anything else till tom night.

[skitter30]

... Fuck. I was really hoping to Lynch Screen before momentum was on me. But since there's intent, and I'm probably going to die night one now if I fuck up, I'm going to claim now.

I'm the Town Roleblocker.

I don't especially believe this tbh, but it'll sort itself out eventually via night actions etc etc so

UNVOTE:

I'm probably going to die night one now if I fuck up,

Aren't you forgetting someone? A50 is the bodyguard. You have 1 night to make your role block useful

@A50, if Jay dies tonight then I will take it as a scum claim from you.

And THIS IS A SCUMCLAIM! Thanks for letting us know your team picked JOAT (1 shot Strongman, 1 shot Ninja)

VOTE: mutant

I don't especially think this is a scumclaim.

However, I am going to

VOTE: mutant

because I'm going up my readslist and I think there's a wagon on him.

Ok seriously there are already two prs claimed so what idiotic scum is there that actually picked powers?.

With every claim the chances of a50 being scum skyrocket as does everyone that has no idea what an ev is.

Unless it's like skitter and Elmo or some shit and they figured they can get mileage out of daytalk.

Yeah I agree with you here tbh. I don't think that most of the scum powers are valuable enough that they'd be worth giving town another PR. The only one I'd take would be daytalk cuz I need to be able to post what I'm actually thinking somwhere, and *maybe* traitor, but probably not.

Honestly I probably should be the lynch.
We don’t need to continue to run people up for claims.

Still should use more time to discuss but my lynch is inevitable.

Yeah this post kinda bleeds town and I'm not lynching you.

I disagree with this analysis. I think the town PRs are significantly more helpful to town than the scum PRs are helpful to scum; I wouldn't pick any of the scum PRs.

I also think that scumhunting on the basis of how many powers were picked is inherently flawed. IE I don't think that starting with the premise that scum picked X powers and that therefore a specific power is likely in the game is such a good idea, since different people clearly would do vastly different things. If I'm convinced that scum picked three specific powers, I might be looking for signs of powers that don't exist, or might ignore the signs of other possible powers. I think it's better to keep an open mind and acknowledge that just because I feel one strategy is best that doesn't mean that scum actually picked what I think is optimal and that I should keep in mind the possibility that any or none or all of the powers might be in play.

Also, can you try to tone it down please?

[skitter30]

Mutant, why aren't you voting?

[skitter30]

A VC is at the pagetop of this very page and you can run down the following 10 posts to know of vote changes. (See how scummy every post you make looks?? If you're truly a VT the YOU SUCK my friend.)

To be clear, I edited the VC in right after post 745. - Math

:/ This is like super shade-throwing-y.

You can be town now.

the questions in 165 are very superficial (no offense).

Eh, I get that a lot.

I find that if I ask more pointed, direct questions, I have a tendency to frame the question in such a way that tells people what I want to hear, which kinda defeats the purpose.

So instead I tend to ask more general questions in order to approach the topic I'm actually interested in from a more oblique angle, and use those general questions to build towards something more specific.

I'm not sure which questions you're specifically referring to though.

unabombah is town and i think the wagon on him is pretty bad (page 10).

Why is Una town?

skitter, am i misunderstanding something here to say that you're criticizing una for unvoting while also saying that it would be silly to keep his vote there?

Kinda? *I* think it was a silly vote to make in the first place, because it's self-resolving. However, *he* thought it was a worthwhile push to make today, so I don't really understand why he unvoted and stopped pushing it. IE he says he thinks he found the traitor, so I don't really get why he unvoted him and just left his vote on no one given that he thought he found a strong candidate for scum.

Basically a prod dodge post. I have a job interview in about 48 hours and I need to focus for that. I'll be around and able to read posts but don't expect any walls from me until then.

Good luck!

[skitter30]

So I'm town for semi-scum-reading Mutant?

It's more cuz I thought your progression from scum!screen to town!screen to be very natural and it doesn't seem faked to me, and the analysis in the post I kinda-quoted also gave me town vibes and sort of sealed my impression of town!lego

[skitter30]

@mutant: spoiling the quotes I'm citing to avoid a quote wall

Spoiler:

He seems scummy but he's also an easy lynch. I think he's just naturally scummy looking. I'm not sure whether I genuinely consider him scum this game but if he's going to get mislynched eventually then we may as well get it over with

in the hope that he is scum this time.

It's waffly and fence-sitty and kinda looks like you're looking for mislynches and like you're OK with just accepting Srceen as a mislynch instead of trying to like sort him.

I never said I think he IS scum

nor do I advocate for any wagon or any pressure.

Saying that I think he should be lynched is a blatant misrepresentation of my opinion. If anything, I describe him as a mislynch. I think we can all agree that the later during the game a mislynch happens the more damaging it is since the stakes are higher and there is more pressure.

You didn't explicitly say he *should* to be lynched, but 321 makes it clear that you were OK with his lynch, even if he was town.

And I disagree that you weren't pressuring him. By saying that you were OK with his lynch irregardless of his alignment, you implicitly supported it and overall contributed to that air of complacency that I was objecting to earlier. Also stating intent to get a claim is explicitly pressuring him.

And I disagree with the premise that his mislynch is inevitable.

The intent to hammer was 100% purely for the claim.

I think that this reinforces lego's point that you were PR hunting.

This entire game he has been in my "town lean but needs a closer analysis as so many people scum read him" pile. As part of my catchup, I intend to look into him a bit more to see if I agree with the town's opinion that he's scummy scum

So I don't really get why you were complacent with his lynch earlier 'in the hope that he is scum this time' if screen was a townlean (321).

[skitter30]

This entire game

he has been in my "town lean but needs a closer analysis as so many people scum read him" pile.

^^

wasn't a town lean then

. He was null when I said i'd be okay with his lynch.

So, which was it? Like can you clarify what your read on him was in 321, and also what your read was when you posted intent?

Either:
Screen L-1 --> No role claim, requests intent --> I post intent --> Screen refuses to claim --> I hammer.
OR (and preferably):
Screen L-1 --> No role claim, requests intent --> I post intent --> Screen role claims --> People unvote -->

We don't have to lynch someone who would probably lynch town

.

My intent was an intent to hammer if there was no role claim. It was not an intent to hammer based on reads. A role claim of literally anything put an end to my intent.

Had I been scum, a VT role claim would have allowed me to hammer since it's reasonable to hammer someone who has claimed a role of low importance.

I don't really get why your willingness to hammer was independent of reads but instead based on whether or not he claimed. Like I'm not sure why the bolded didn't apply to the first scenario?

Bolded/italics together: Kinda sound like you want WIFOM-y towncred for not having hammered someone you think would 'probably lynch town', unlike what you would have been able to do as scum?

I had no intention of PR hunting there and I can assure you I have no need to know who the PRs are here unless they feel they have something to share by claiming.

So, like, what's the point of stating intent in order to make him claimm? You say you weren't explicitly PR fishing ... but the more VT claims that there are the easier it is for scum to PoE who the PRs might be. No matter what he claimed, you helped scum out by forcing him to do so.

[skitter30]

by the way, i'm skeptical towards the idea that the pr claims will "resolve themselves". town roleblocker is a pretty weak role and one that i could definitely see scum leaving alive. in fact, picture the game state going into the night from the perspective of scum – there are two pr claims that you can shoot, both of whom people have heavily scumread and both of whom people are relying on getting shot by scum to sort, both of whom don't pose a lot of threat to you. why shoot either of them?

I don't disagree with you that Jay looks rather scummy. We're still not lynching a claimed PR day1.

The 'resolve itself' thing applies more to A50 because his role, played right, should lead to him dying. It doesn't apply quite as much to Jay, but we're not lynching him today regardless.

I think that if Jay flips town rb at any point this post/push is quite bad tbh.

@nsg: given that we're not lynching the claimed rb today, who do you want to lynch?

i never said that we should lynch you tomorrow or that i'm doing this specifically to protect you. what i said is that saying that "it'll sort itself come tomorrow" isn't actually anything sorting itself, it's just metaphorically kicking the can down the road, and that

if

you are town, it is a good thing that i'm doing this, not that i am doing this because i think you are town.

Right, and the more you push this the more reason scum have to allow this scenario to take place. You're creating WIFOM over the slot that, if town, creates the oppurtunity for a mislynch.

[skitter30]

so what new information do you think will help resolve the jay slot? please help me understand this, because from my perspective this is just kicking the can down the road on someone who i scumread.

Flips today/tonight, and if anyone cc's - a mass claim is kinda inevitable at some point imo. Day 1 town has the least amount of info, and we just don't have flips to work with. Tomorrow we'll have more info.

Like I'm not arguing that we should leave the slot alive till like a time-critical phase like LYLO, and I'm fine with revisiting Jay tomorrow in light of flips. I don't really see why you'd lynch a claimed PR before they had at least a night to (maybe) get results.

why's that? why do i make this point clear as scum when i could just silently do the scum strategy that i suggested and leave jay alive? why do i draw massive amounts of attention to myself through this?

As scum, if you're planning on dealing with Jay by leaving him alive, you kinda need to build up that paranoia so as to make him mislynchable. In a vacuum (ie without this discussion), I don't think he's getting lynched soonish on claims, and by pushing this line of reasoning, Jay's slot has become controversial enough that he can be left alive and has probably become mislynchable, maybe even for today.

You're creating WIFOM over the slot that, if town, creates the oppurtunity for a mislynch.

I strongly disagree. I think what NSG is doing a good job in exploring the most unlikely of scenarios and considering all possibilities. Scum already know if Jay is faking or not, and cannot afford to keep him alive to -say- D3, lest he blocks the kill and thus claim a guilty on one of them. If they do let him live that long it's their own loss.

P-edit: Good point by NSG. Titus almost always claims an existing PR in open setups when put @L-1 as Scum in order to draw a CC and help her team still.

Disagree. I think it's a good scum tactic to create enough WIFOM over a sketchy town!PR's non-death in order to make them mislynchable - it's a great way imo to handle a PR without actually having to nk them.

[skitter30]

eh, really it's just been the thing that more people have asked about, so that's what i've been talking about. if you'd like to discuss something else, here's a "hot take" – the worst is scum who's been coasting along, giving a lot of commentary on other people but without ever really getting into a conversation himself or pushing anything himself. really – read though his iso and take a look at how much of it is giving thoughts on other people or updates on his thoughts, and how little of it is actually pushing a point. reading through it also instinctually felt different to the one newbie game i saw him in, where he was town.

This one for the worst?

I have a gut townread early game for how open/eager/involved he was being, but I've been noting over the past few days that his content and involved-ness has died down, and that when he's here, a lot of his posts are sheeping me, which is making me a bit wary on his slot. Like he isn't really pushing *his own* things, but sheeping a lot of the popular pushes.

Looking over his ISO again, I see some buddying of lego happening too.

He also did say he's having trouble keeping up with this game and it looks like he hasn't played much outside the newbie queue.

So tldr: I definitely see where you're coming from but I need him to be a bit more *present* and post some more before I firm up my read on him either way.

For sky, he had a lot of content in the past few hours, and you had a lot of content about him, and I haven't had a chance to process all of it and go back to check the points that are being brought up in context, but I'll get to that some point tonight or tomorrow.

[skitter30]

Apologies for the more deader activity, I'm in two games currently (which is something I promised myself I wouldn't do while I'm still a n00b). This is my 2nd game on the site. FTR out of respect to town and the mod's activity requirements if my activity will remain poor/get worse I'll replace out.

@nsg: so I had gotten this vibe from the worst and I think that a lot of the sheeping-ness stems from here and I'm not sure if it's AI tbh.

Skitter I am sheeping a little while I don't feel like I can be strongly influential. Also I think you're town which makes you v easy to gravitate towards.

Lol, yeah I tend to have a *presence* when I'm town.

So the thing is that sheeping me is a very, very, very easy place for scum to sit, because I'm townread atm by most people to some degree or another and I'm not that confident in my scumreads -> if I'm involved in a mislynch, I'm going to get more of the flak for pushing a mislynch than you for just sheeping. I'm fine with that; I'll take responsibility for any mislynches I ended up pushing. The thing I'm worried about though is that if you *are* scum, you have an easy out for avoiding responsibility for a mislynch - it's easy for you to say that you were just sheeping me.

Like I don't really care that you're sheeping me, and if that makes it easier for you to play the game and/or keep up with it, go for it. I do care that you might use that as an excuse later on to abdicate responsibility for your votes and pushes through.

Like does that make sense?

[skitter30]

A50, what do you think of Jay independent of claim, given that it's Creatures slot?

[skitter30]

if you'd like to discuss something else, here's a "hot take" – the worst is scum who's been coasting along, giving a lot of commentary on other people but without ever really getting into a conversation himself or pushing anything himself. really – read though his iso and take a look at how much of it is giving thoughts on other people or updates on his thoughts, and how little of it is actually pushing a point.

I kinda want to apply this to montosh tbh, especially those catch-up IIOA posts he'd been making.

HIs main push of the game was Screen, and he's been sitting on that vote for like forever, and hasn't really done much else.

Sky_Paladin - posts are sparse but excellent, the very pinnacle of what town should aspire to.

This is really funny lolololol

More seriously though, I thought that post was very interesting.

mutant -
This troubling vote block at 150:
♣ Almost50 (3): Espeonage, UnaBombaH, mutantdevle
Concerns me.

Mutant empty unvoted while he was at three votes and failed to vote on the Screen wagon and called everybody on it sheep.
Has failed to have a vote for almost the entire game. Probably indicative of scum MO.

So, this is an interesting voting bloc, and you're positing that esp/una work together as a team, and that mutant also has a significant chance of being scum.

If the traitor was recruited, I kinda doubt that all three scum are the only three people sitting on the A50 wagon after he claimed BG.

If the traitor was not recruited ... I have to think about it. Do both groupscum *and* the traitor sit on this wagon when groupscum don't know who the traitor is? I'm still having some trouble seeing *both* groupscum sit on this though. But since the whole convo was about whether or not A50 was crumbing traitor, I feel like an unrecruited traitor may have used that situation to try to communicate with groupscum. Both una and mutant kinda seemed to use that push more as an excuse to talk about the possibility of a traitor and to work that into the convo than it being a legitmate push on A50 imo (I get that vibe from both of them from how they each hopped off the wagon). Whereas I'm getting from Esp the vibe that he actually thinks A50 has a not-insignifcant chance of being traitor.

I think one of the most interesting conclusions you had was the following:

Montosh - My pick for scum traitor. Slot needs to exist. Isolated players are unlikely to be scum pairs though so undecided for now.

I've been mulling this over, and I think that this reasoning has some equity.

[skitter30]

If anyone was pr hunting, it was sky.

can we not lynch mutant, or can someone explain the wagon on him?

more detailed response(s) soon.

I'm not really voting for PR hunting, and I don't really think that's such a big deal tbh. Screen was at L-1, and he asked for a claim.

I'm voting because I don't like how he piggy-backed off of Una's push on A50, and because he was fine just lynching screen without really trying to parse his alignment (321). He implicitly supported it without trying to sort screen but never actually committed to it or voted him.

Like I said earlier:

Also the more I look at that mutant quote the more I really don't like it, especially because he isn't even putting his money where his mouth is and voting screen after saying that. He's contributing to this general air of complacency for the wagon du jour of the day but isn't doing anything to advance or it to take responsibility for it.

[skitter30]

I'm voting because I don't like how he piggy-backed off of Una's push on A50,

It’s shit like this that makes me scum lean you. Una never pushed A50. Una placed a vote with a reason, I agreed with said reason, developed it, pushed it, and then unvoted when there was no traction.

I don’t recall Una actually doing anything about A50 during that entire conversation I had with him.

OK, maybe this is a terminology thing:

Una accused A50 of being the traitor who back-up crumbed BG. I would call that pushing him. You took that idea and developed it and continued pushing A50 along those lines. That's what I meant by piggybacking.

IE we agree that you expanded on una's intial reasoning, and I'm saying that I think that doing so was scummy. I don't really get what the bolded has to do with this point. Like I feel like you think I'm misrepping you somewhere, but I'm not really sure where exactly?

Also iirc you unvoted not because there wasn't traction, but because you were satisfied that A50's crumb was in line with his town meta?

That’s how you do the convincing thing.

UNVOTE:

Time to sleep and then go to work for a full day. I’ll be back in 18-20 hours.

After he gave like six examples of crumbing as town.

[skitter30]

I'm not exactly saying that I think you sheeped una so much as I think that you opportunistically built on una's bad push (ie voting A50 for crumbing traitor in a bg crumb).

[skitter30]

I'm voting because I don't like how he piggy-backed off of Una's push on A50,

It’s shit like this that makes me scum lean you. Una never pushed A50. Una placed a vote with a reason, I agreed with said reason, developed it, pushed it, and then unvoted when there was no traction. I don’t recall Una actually doing anything about A50 during that entire conversation I had with him.

I'm kinda more considered about the Screen thing than the A50 thing tbh, and I don't think you ever addressed that even though I brought it up a few times?

Fun fact: if Lego or Mutant flip groupscum I v much doubt they took daychat.

Still enough time to empty vote my bigger scumread (sorry dude)

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lego

I kinda think that we should be consolidating wagons now given that there's ~3 days left.

[skitter30]

I also just realized that after mutant posted that readslist ... he's still not voting anyone, and iirc, hasn't voted since like A50 ages ago.

[skitter30]

Who do you want me to vote?

Whoever you think scum is. Basically what I'm looking for is for you to take a stance, and demonstrate conviction by acting upon it.

You were ok with screen, but didnt want to sheep the wagon and did nothing to advance it

You list a bunch of scumreads, but don't vote them or do anything to pressure them or get them lynched.

And I'm a scumlean for you and I'm trying to get you lynched, so like what was the point of asking me?

[skitter30]

I'm not really feeling scum!lego rn

[skitter30]

I’ve not been too engaged with this game so am yet to push anyone. I’m now in a position where I could be more engaged but refuse to do so whilst there is a high chance I am to be lynched. My reads list was by no means an attempt to push anyone and simply serves as a way to clearly express my opinions on everyone should you need such information after my death.

Right, and I'm saying that refusing to become engaged because you might be lynched is scummy.

[skitter30]

There are a couple of players you could policy vote for low currency value to town.

At this point I would arguably say Montosh is a better choice for a policy lynch. What particular reason did you pick NM?

I *really* think we can do better than a PL today, so I won't support one. There might be a vig; if they exist, let them handle the pl-worthy players. If not, we can pursue that if we lack other lynch candidates.

[skitter30]

Mutant and Screen are the only ones close to wagons and neither of them are worth lynching. We've still got a few days to find a suitable parallel wagon. (someone else do my work for me please, I am literally the worst)

I neither understand why you're townreading Mutant, nor do I understand why you're scumreading Lego.

[skitter30]

I really don't like this fixation on pl's tbh.

Like, instead of finding scum we're using the lynch to remove players that may or may not be town but whose posting style we don't like?

[skitter30]

I would probably go there at deadline if I had to but that's not really one of my preferred wagons.

[skitter30]

But out of my choices, since Jay and Screen are currently pencilled out, I'm now interested in NM, specifically as he is happy to make empty content posts, and supposedly unrelated people jump in to defend him. I'm deeply bothered by players who think that NM's conduct is desirable to have in the game because scum gain advantage from this style of play.

I never said his conduct is desirable to have in the game. In fact, I just said that he's a great vig target. To me, players who argue that we should lynch NM because they think he's being anti-town are pushing a PL. Like I'm not saying leave him till LYLO. What I'm saying is that he has a rep of playing this way, so it isn't AI, and that lynching him because of how he plays is settling for a PL and I think that the lynch should be used on scumreads.

I don't know if I can read NM directly with any sort of accuracy tbh. Instead, what I can do is look at how *other* people are interacting with him, and try to read him indirectly. Namely, I think that town!NM that is behaving this way this way is basically the epitome of lynchbait because his playstyle encourages pl's. I think scum would try to lynch town!NM because his playing style makes him low-hanging fruit. So, if he's getting wagoned on a pl, I think there's probably scum involved fanning those flames.

Whereas if he's scum, I don't think in general that scum would be pushing his pl.

So I guess what I'm saying is that if it looks like people are making lazy pl-related pushes on him .... there's probably scum involved inciting that to get a mislynch.

Like I'm not arguing that he should be left unresolved till LYLO. What I'm saying is that he's a great vig shot, and if that doesn't happen, we can revisit this like tomorrow or sometime before LYLO. Like I inherently don't believe that pl'ing someone day1 by virtue of playstyle is pro-town behavior, especially if there's potentially another way to resolve the problematic slot.

[skitter30]

Actually;

Skitter/NSG/A50

Let's say we're at LYLO and the only players left are NM, Sky, and (insert your name).

Sky and NM are countervoting.

Who do you vote and why?

I don't know how to answer this question rn because I'd need to understand the context of how we got there before I can give an informed answer. Also given the current gamestate I kinda doubt I'm alive in 3-way LYLO tbh?

[skitter30]

@Worst
Two pages ago you said you had alarm bells when I answered a question directed at Lego.

Do you not see why I might be concerned when players don't care about Not Mafia at all until there's votes on the wagon, and that is only to defend NM instead of letting him post for himself?

I don't really think people are defending him and I think he's posting for himself? I'm not really sure what you're getting at here tbh

[skitter30]

To some degree Worst as well, but;

NSG

what's anti-town about defending someone i townread?

Defending other players is not scummy behavior, but it IS anti-town. Players should be able to defend themselves and be accountable for their posts.

Uhhhhh ... it's anti-town to defend townreads? Like that's kinda how the game is played? Like you form townreads and try to prevent their lynches, and form scumreads and try to promote their lynches.

Like this looks like you're shading NSG for defending a townread? Like ... what should she be doing with him if she townreads him? Like that's people kinda fundementally do with townreads so I don't get what you're objecting to here?

Does anyone else get the vibe that Sky's tying NSG to NM's flip?

That all said, I do agree that policy lynching a slot on day 1 is a good option if we haven't got a better scum read, but the scum read should be the first option.

And I'm arguing that we should try to get better options but you're settling for a pl.

I want to highlight why allowing an alleged non-alignment indicative lurker to coast through to endgame is bad for town.

Like people are arguing that he ought to get vigged? I don't think anyone is saying he ought to be alive at LYLO?

[skitter30]

@Skitter/NSG/A50

That's so strange that you all gave the same answer.

To me if the situation was (your name) and NM countervoting, I'd hammer NM.

Skitter/Sky/NM -> lynch NM
A50/Sky/NM -> lynch NM
NSG/Sky/NM -> lynch NM

Since I highly doubt you three are the entire scum team, maybe I am wrong on this one.

Does anybody else think this is bizarre or am I just off target.

I think you asked question that isn't really answerable in the current gamestate tbh, which is why people said they can't really answer the question.

And even if we're the entire scumteam, all of us are answering this way to go on a limb to protect NM because .... ?

[skitter30]

I think the resistance to the mutant wagon is troubling, and I rather dislike the vanity wagons that are popping up this close to deadline.

I'll be around at deadline, but not much today or tomorrow, so here's where I'm willing to vote:

want to lynch: mutant
willing to lynch: montosh, una
can compromise at deadline: NM, sky, esp
don't really want to compromise at deadline: nsg, the worst
not voting today: A50, Jay, Screen, Lego

[skitter30]

The main reason I've been playing to avoid the nightkill, I also crumbed it to una.

I didn't catch the specific crumb but I was getting PR vibes from you, which is why I wasn't really into your lynch (there's a particular kind of scummy that I associate with PR-lying-low-so-as-to-not-get-nk'd, and yeah you were right in that spot, although I was thinking tracker). I also thought I was one of the two people you were scumreading (you said you didn't think you could get them lynched then and at the time you said it I was the most likely candidate for that to apply).

So unless you really think A50 would target the worst, then either me or the worst must be scum. And if I am scum and you lynch the worst it's a 1 for 1 bc you lynch me tomorrow. If we lynch me first you lose the vig shot.

VOTE: the worst

I don't think A50 targets the worst last night. It would be me, NSG, or Jay imo. And since jay claims he rb'd una, it's either {vig!Esp / bp!tw}, or gambiting!scum!esp / town!tw. I don't think scum!you gambits like this to get out TW of all people? Like that isn't a worthwhile 1v1 for scum!you imo. Only semi-plausible scenario where that takes place is scum have rolecop and TW is a town pr, but that isn't what's happening.

So I'm believing town!vig!esp and bp/TW.

I just assumed Jay had blocked me and didn't post yesterday bc I was just mad and didn't want to claim for nothing. But now I get to lynch my scumread anyway so woo I can kill skitter tonight.

I don't really have it in me right now to try to talk you out of this tbh (midterms + depression= my motivation isn't super high rn).

why do people think a50 protected elsa? in a world where doubt exists as to whether or not elsa's claim was real, that seems like a bad move, to me.

Cuz A50 believed Jay iirc. Whether or not anyone else doubts jay's claim is irrelevant. That's why I would beieve A50 might have protected Jay.

town only start with two power roles before mafia take any abilities – given that a50 has already flipped pr, if scum didn't take anything then there would only be one pr left, meaning that one of the pr claims would be lying.

True, but we have no way of knowing that, and I don't think they're planning on telling us that lolol.

If you're scum we lynch one of your buddies today then you confirm yourself tonight.

No, you 2 are in a 1v1 which means that there's a 50/50 chance of getting scum. And you go first becuase you aren't a claimed PR. Searching for scumbuddies reduces the chances to finding scum to like 2/7 if I'm counting correctly, and if your'e BP proper you don't die tonight and tomorrow is just a repeat.

actually, that's true – we could just lynch outside of you two and then tonight espeonage can target the worst again if actually the vig, no?

Not if he's BP .... that only works if he's the traitor (1-shot bp)

[skitter30]

actually, that's true – we could just lynch outside of you two and then tonight espeonage can target the worst again if actually the vig, no?

If the worst actually flips bp, this is also a bad post imo -> it looks like you're stalling his lynch and I think you know that it's suboptimal to do that here mechanics wise, and that esp targeting the worst again is kinda pointless if it can just be resolved via the lynch, especially if there's a strong possibility that the worst is bp.

-------

who do you guys expect a scum espeonage would do this to?

I'm not entirely sure he'd do that at all tbh. Like I don't the trade is worth it in this setup? And like, I don't think scum pulls this on town!lynchbait (ie because it's a 1v1 trade and I don't think lynchbait is worth the trade in this setup if they can be lynched otherwise), and for a stronger town player ... like I just don't think there's a player in the game right now that scum need to create a reason to mislynch them in a 1v1 trade instead of just shooting them, now that the bp is dead.

Like if TW doesn't flip BP, esp is basically confscum for lying and gets lynched tom. Like I just don't know if anyone is worth it rn?

--------

The worst part of this is like
I believe Esp is legit
I know I'm town
I do not know what happened but hey I'm alive

Of everyone on my wagon Montosh is giving immensely scummy vibes so I'm totally voteparking there.

Yeah believing the guy who effectively is claiming a guilty on you is kinda :/

[skitter30]

I don't think A50 protects you last night. I think he'd protect Jay (he believed the claim), or NSG (implicitly townreading her at the end of the day), or me (was townreading me earlier). I also don't think you were ever a scum kill last night? Like given a claimed PR and townreads, I don't think he'd protect someone that probably doesn't get nk'd.

[skitter30]

who do you guys expect a scum espeonage would do this to?

Did you answer this? Because you'd need to explain to me scum!esp's motivation for doing that for me to find it remotely plausible.

[skitter30]

Lynching outside the two of us is objectively the correct play.

A50 continuously stated that he would NOT be naming his townreads due to his night action.

No, it's not, cuz you're in a 1v1, and lynching outside of you lowers the chance of finding scum and it might not get resolved tonight with a vig shot (you're group!scum bp or esp is lying), which would mean that we're just pushing this off till tom, and this'll consume another day. I don't think that pushing this off really accomplishes anything.

And he didn't explicitly state his townreads but it wasn't that hard to track them implicitly by seeing what he said about various people and how he interacted with people.

[skitter30]

who do you guys expect a scum espeonage would do this to?

Did you answer this? Because you'd need to explain to me scum!esp's motivation for doing that for me to find it remotely plausible.

Who was this at?
Also why?
I'm not sure if this is a misunderstanding or throwing shade but I don't like it.

NSG. She's positing town!you and scum!esp but she needs to explain the motivation for scum!esp to do this for me to even consider the idea.

[skitter30]

How?

[skitter30]

Yeah but if you're bp this just gets pushed off another day and nothing really gets accomplished.

[skitter30]

I can tell you now. I'm not shooting you tonight if for whatever reason people are dumb and lynch not you.

I'll be shooting someone else to prove me role.

Can you run this by me again? I think the double negatives are making it hard for me to process this ...

[skitter30]

Yes, very lol

[skitter30]

He's just saying if people lynch anyone but me he won't shoot me tonight.

Get some sleep, we can go over it tomorrow <3

Oh yeah he can prove himself by shooting like *anyone* else lol. Either way I think it's prob best to just resolve it via a lynch? Because him shooting elsewhere doesn't resolve your BP-ness, only his vig-ness (ie it's plausible that he shot you and you got protected by A50). So his role got proven but your possible BP-ness doesn't really get resolved if he shoots elsewhere.

And shooting you might be kinda dumb if you're groupscum!bp because it just pushes the today's 1v1 off till tomorrow.

And yeah I gotta do a load of hw still so I'll be back tom probably.

[skitter30]

I think A50 was purposefully playing scummy day 1 so that he wouldn't eat the nk, but either he got shot anyways, scum hit their unrecruited traitor, or they also shot TW.

Any of those would explain the n1 death imo.

Of course, by protecting the vig kill he kinda made things rather confusing, but yeah.

I don't really see the benefit of a no lynch tbh.

I think scum is in {Montosh , nsg, sky, nm}, in that order, with the caveat that if nm is scum, sky probably is too.

Outside shot of screen, but I'm not really feeling it.

I don't think montosh is town like at all tbh.

Also while he explicitly believed Esp, he hesitated to actually vote TW because he didn't want to end the day early. Like if he believed Esp there wasn't really a reason to hesitate; it was a probable guilty that needed to be resolved.

But he didn't actually end up on the wagon, and I think that's scum-indicative. I think scum hesitate to join the wagon of a probable/fake guilty because they know the participants in the 1v1 are town (or at least not groupscum), and don't want to commit (ie lay down a vote) on either side.

[skitter30]

Yeah doing so benefits scum because they have an obvious nk, and I don't think town benefits at all because the claimed pr likely just eats the kill.

P-edit: nsg supports no-lynching too.

[skitter30]

Yeah I don't really agree with you tbh; I don't really get the point of no-lynchjng today.I'm

[skitter30]

skitter was assassinated. oh no.

lolol I had class and hit submit early.

[skitter30]

I mean, I'm not really sure what else you want me to talk about rn? I've given my opinion on the no-lynch situation, and we appear to be waiting for lego/montosh to talk about a potential no-lynch and who they'd want to lynch today.

But I'm around for a bit so if you want to talk about something, go for it.

[skitter30]

could someone explain to me the rationale behind

not

no-lynching today? i see only benefits.

I don't really get what the benefits are tbh.

We're in 8 player mylo, and if we no-lynch, we're in 7 player lylo, most likely with Jay dead. I'm not really sure why that situation benefits us. Yes, there might be an unclaimed goon cop or tracker who can get another night of results, but they also might not exist and then all we have tomorrow is 7-player lylo with likely jay being dead, and we're basically exactly where we are now without Jay.

[skitter30]

why are montosh and sky town?

Elsa is locktown to me, by the way – never lynching there.

i'm still not convinced jay is town

but if nobody else holds this opinion then i'll just focus elsewhere today, i suppose.

i eagerly await sky paladin's reentrance.

[skitter30]

So the thing with sky is that I kinda like their posts, and I want to townread them, but I'm aware that I have a tendency to townread a specific posting style regardless of alignment because I like the posts and the thought process behind them, and sky's posts are like right in that blindspot.

Like I like the posts and and the effort and I can understand what he's thinking, but I'm still not sure if they're actually *town* or if I just like the way he's posting, so I'm having trouble figuring out how to sort him properly.

And I'm not really sure what the utility of *maybe* claiming and outing a guilty before going on v/la for three days? (Like whey not just claim when you get back instead of leaving us to stew on this piece of info for three days?)

If he is fake-claiming though, he's been planning this at least since the end of day 1. At the point where he crumbed, there were already 2 claims: Jay and A50, and we know that Esp was also a PR.

So if he's (group)scum fake-claiming, he knew how many PRs there were, and whether it was safe to fake-claim. If there is actually more PRs, he had to gamble on there not being a goon cop, and I feel like this is kinda risky?

And I feel like the following largely substantiate the claim, but before he could elaborate the phase got derailed into the tw/esp thing.

Spoiler:

This feels alignment informed

What an interesting choice of words you have used.

Could you please go in to some more detail on this.

Two down, one to go.

I think it's

probably

NSG/TheWorst/Screenplay but it miiiiight still be Skitter.

I'll be back in a little bit to expound on why this is so.

Also what do people think about 851 in light of this?

[skitter30]

OK, the way Lego claimed was like ridiculously, blatantly obvtown. Scum just don't claim like that; they don't leave the credibility of the claim to running out of free wifi at the miami airport lol.

I do want to credit sky for having planned this since like the end of day 1 though, because his posts from day 2 really do look like they come from someone with a guilty imo.

@nsg, 1514 - you say that Sky's claim is fake because he voted TW over you. If you look at his posting history in day 2, he voted you first thing and never left you throughout day2, so I'm not sure what you mean by this. That's partly why I believed him at first because his posts kinda match a guilty.

skitter, i don't understand how you're hard townreading jay now even though your opinion back on day one when i was pushing there was that you thought he was scummy but didn't want to vote there because it would resolve itself. well, here we are in mylo and it hasn't resolved itself. we can

very, very easily

no lynch, and the situation

will

resolve itself. that's what i recognized at the start of the day and it gives me a lot of pause that you didn't think the same thing.

by the way, has jay claimed who he blocked last night?

Jay, you wanna share your results?

Honestly, I just didn't put it together until NM posted the following, at which point I realized that I had been an idiot for missing the transparently obvious. I think that scum fake-claiming in this setup seems like such ridiculously awful idea (the chance of getting cc'd is soooo high, as we see here) to me that I just didn't seriously consider the possibility, and so I didn't really think about it from that POV. And now we have at least one scum fake-claiming, possibly two.

lynching today transparently benefited scum Jay.

Sky isn't artful enough to execute a plan like this. skitter, I admittedly don't know him well.

(she)

lololol, this is something I could/would do on my homesite, but wouldn't really try to pull on this site tbh. And if I was directing lego to fake-claim ... it would be rather more meticulously planned and the credibility wouldn't depend on the miami airport's lack of free wifi.

Either scum kill me and Sky leads you to your doom or scum don't kill me and I am mislynched. So I guess either you trust me and lynch Sky or else do what is probably the right thing to do, since I am usually idiotic.

You aren't an idiot <3

Seriously, your vacation is much more important than this lol, and what's done is done; don't feel too bad about it.

So your one result is the guy we know flipped town and then you got nothing the rest of the nights? And you made a CC to a softclaim? Why? Looks like trying to pre-empt sky so you look more town.

You say you've got crumbs you can point out? By all means show what you've got.

This is really, really :/ cuz the tone just feels wrong.

Sorry, it makes perfect sense for scum!lego to pre-empt a sky cop claim in a MyLo situation. Not to mention you've been on the sky slot basically all game. What, did you see a cop crumb from them early on and try your hand at lynching them?

OK, and why are you assuming that it isn't scum!sky trying to pre-empt a PR claim in MYLO in an attempt to discredit them?

Yeah I'm not going to pick apart the rest of montosh's posts; they're really bad.

Is it bad that I kinda want to lynch montosh to force scum to shoot within the PRs or no-kill or risk making them (ie jay) look even worse?

[skitter30]

OK,

the way Lego claimed was like ridiculously, blatantly obvtown. Scum just don't claim like that

; they don't leave the credibility of the claim to running out of free wifi at the miami airport lol.

They do if they think it'll look obvtown. That's the whole point. If scum think people will interpret it the same way as you then they will claim like that.

But doing that would make it calculated. I'm townreading it *because* it was so carefree/uncalculated/spur-of-the-moment. I fundamentally don't believe that was planned, and I don't believe scum!lego pulls that unplanned.

Or maybe not. Meticulously planned can be good, but if it seems too polished and planned people can get suspicious. If it seems more natural and spur of the moment then it can reduce suspicion, which scum would want to do. Like yeah, there's a lot of WIFOM here but I don't see Lego's manner of claiming as being all that town AI.

^^^^ what I said above

I never assumed anything about Sky. We need to wait for em to come back and give some explanation for their weird softclaim post.

I mean you're shading lego's claim more than sky's 'weird' claim so unless you're positing they're both fake-claiming it seems to me like you believe sky more than lego.

Thing is, I can see a reason why Sky might do that as town:

They're the GC, and they're trying to get scum to make a CC and out themselves since they'd be worried sky has a guilty on them (and maybe they really do, but are trying to get associations going). Risky but I could see it happening, we didn't have very good info going into the day.

There's reasons I can see for town sky to do this, even if I wouldn't really go that route myself. But I don't see why town Lego would CC a softclaim without a guilty result, or any results on living players for that matter. But I can see panicking scum doing it.

I don't think lego is town, given that.

a) I don't understand the second paragraph. (ie who's 'they'?)

b) Cuz from town!lego's POV there's someone clearly angling to claim and cc him? Why wouldn't he cc? It's quite apparent that sky was planning to claim.

c) Why would scum!lego be panicking here? Sky isn't claiming a guilty on him? I don't really see the motivation for scum!lego to fake-claim here at all tbh, and definitely not like *that*

d) your post feels kinda wrong -> I just posited that I think we should lynch you and your response is to try to convince me to believe sky over lego? It feels weird.

Sky's crumbs are awful and these two are making no effort to analyse Sky's crumbs, they aren't actually trying to gamesolve, they're pushing an agenda

The crumbs they posted are pretty bad yeah. That's something I definitely need to hear from Sky on.

And for real, what agenda exactly am I trying to push? That the weird and possibly scum AI claims are... well weird and possibly scum AI?

You're pushing the agenda that lego is scum fake-claiming and you're blatantly trying to discredit him, all without solidly backing sky and just saying that his posts are 'weird'.

[skitter30]

Jay, you wanna share your results?

At this point I kinda feel like you're coasting on your claim and the fact that you haven't even shared your results despite being asked several times is weird.

Also I realized that no-lynching doesn't necessarily resolve scum!Jay because they have an easy and obvious solution to the no-kill problem.

[skitter30]

OK, if you're town, NM didn't kill last night, but I'm kinda doubting that you're town or that the claim is real at this point tbh. What I'm having trouble with is that this would imply that scum fake-claimed twice ..... and I think that fake-claiming once in this setup is a bad idea, and fake-claiming twice is an *incredibly* bad idea, so it's honestly kind of mind-boggling to me that scum decided to do that.

[skitter30]

Vote Count 1-8

I'm a greater believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it.

Thomas Jefferson

---

♥ Srceenplay (6)

(L-1)

: Montosh, Espeonage, Elmo TeH AzN, Almost50, Sky_Paladin, JaydragonKing

♠ Sky_Paladin (1)

: Not_Mafia

♦ UnaBombaH (2)

: the worst, legoboyvdlp

♣ mutantdevle (2)

: UnaBombaH, skitter30

♥ JaydragonKing (1)

: Srceenplay

♠ Not Voting (1)

: mutantdevle

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2018-02-02 12:00:00)

Mod Notes:

- None!

So, 7 other players, with three scum.

I believe Lego, and I think NM is town, leaving three scum in {jay, sky, montosh, nsg, and screen.}

Given the above vc and his wagon overall, I think screen is basically clear if I assume town!lego and town!nm. If screen is scum, both scum are on his wagon, and if he's town, all scum are on that wagon. So yeah this basically points to town!screen because I don't think he randomly gets bussed that hard.

Which leaves three scum in {sky, jay, montosh, nsg}, I guess in that order for me.

[skitter30]

I'll now claim vanilla town. This was a reaction test because I wanted to see what NSG would do as I was undecided on her alignment; I was leaning scum but became concerned I had massive confirmation bias because I strongly believed NSG/Worst as a scum team due to Worsts heavy buddying and statements from NSG that I believed were harmful to town. However I did not really see what I wanted to see. I also did not expect a hard counterclaim to my soft claim so that's annoying.

I mean, this is kinda what I expected you to say given how the Lego claim shook out but if you're town this is like ridiculously anti-town because you just outed the cop

Also why I think that semi-claiming before v/la was scum-motivated - you had the oppurtunity to maybe claim and then let all the reactions happen so that *your* reaction could be tweaked to match how town reacted. If there wasn't a cc I fully expect that you'd have stuck with the claim. If people didn't believe Lego I also expect you'd have stuck with the claim.

Then I was going away for three days and I didn't want town to hammer a no lynch that would put us in LYLO with a dead Jay who was, in my mind, the only confirmed town at this point. If scum believed I was goon cop then they might hit me even if no lynch eventuated.

So I decided to go ahead with a soft-gambit because I didn't expect a cop counter-claim when that cop also didn't bring anything new to the table (no town clears, no guilties, no hard claim to counter, sigh). Oh well.

I mean, you could have just asked that we wait to commit to a lynch/no-lynch until you got back instead of gambling a PR claim?

Bolded: Feels really really wrong and weird and just ????

Let me try to unpack why:

a) You're basically saying that you'd have been fine if the real cop claimed if they'd had real results -> I mean you're probably getting lynched here for this. We're in MYLO so if you're town that's game. What kind of results Lego has from your POV shouldn't change that? Like unless Lego had a guilty on someone else you're pretty much always the lynch here? Like I'm saying your phrasing is weird in that you're implying you would have been OK with outing the cop if they had real results when you shoudln't be because regardless of lego's results if you're retracting the claim you're like always the lynch for kinda cc'ing the cop and if you're town you basically lost the game.

b) Like if you're town your gambit kinda screwed over town and probably lost the game given that you're likely getting lynched and your reaction is 'oh well'? Like it's missing that emotional component of 'I messed up and probably lost the game for town'. You're waaaay too blase/casual/meh about this.

EG both Montosh and Lego have posted and made some effort to solve the game,

Montosh is blatantly backing your non-claim and shading lego's, and lego's claim was blatantly obvtown and he should basically be treated as conftown imo and the fact that you're binning them in the same pile is bizarre to me.

except for NSG, who hasn't come out screaming that I'm wrong and is more interested in waiting to see the motivation behind it.

So I can see this coming from NSG!town, and I can also see this coming from scum!Not Mafia.

Given that you just gambited the game on trying to read NSG's alignment, this conclusion feels incredibly underwhelming.

Also NM is like the towniest person in the game atm and we're not lynching him today.

If it isn't you I would be OK with montosh.

Also NSG and NM basically took the same opinion on the lego thing and NSG was basically angling to wait and let you come back and scumclaim (1479), so the fact that you come out with opposite opinions on their alignments is just really weird.

Also if you're town fake-claiming a guilty on town!NSG, she isn't going to believe the claim. If you're town fake-claiming a guilty on scum!NSG, she still isn't going to believe the claim. IE if you're town from your POV she's never believing no matter her alignment so the fact that she didn't explicitly call for your head immediatley but rather wanted to wait until you committed to it shouldn't really be AI imo.

--------

These quotes look very similar. What are you trying to achieve by this?

Yeah sorry, I kinda have a tendency to use turns of phrase that express what I'm thinking well, not really on purpose. Didn't mean to do that and it doesn't mean anything in particular just that the phrasing stuck with me, sorry.

There's just a particular type of posting style that I just want to townread irregardless of alignment and I got burned this way ~two months ago (mini 1963, seph), which kinda made me aware that this is a thing I have *a lot* of trouble with, and there was another game shortly thereafter where basically the same thing happened although I ultimately had the correct read (bread upick, fish), and I'm seeing a lot of similarities between your style and the style of those players who were all scum which is why I couldn't just townbin you even though I like your posts. Like the posts are good but they don't feel *town* to me. I don't know how to explain that better.
--------

@Screen: I don't think I was explicitly townreading your play so much as I thought your wagon was gross and that you were likely town from how the wagon formed and how the gamestate stalled. And then you stopped like contributing after your wagon died mid-day1 and we're in MYLO so I feel like I need to revaluate everything. But based on how players acted today and my current understanding of the game, your wagon is still gross and you're still likely town because of it even though I don't particularly townread your play.

[skitter30]

I mean, this is kinda what I expected you to say given how the Lego claim shook out but if you're town this is like ridiculously anti-town because you just outed the cop

That's false because, as highlighted sufficiently by NSG, my claim was not a hard claim and Lego outed themselves for no reason. The rest of your post seems to be all WIFOM so I'm just going to handwave dismiss it as the rest of your post seems to hinge on the idea that I was not committed to a lynch this phase, when, uh, every single post I had made in this phase was about lynching and not no-lynching.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

?????

a) You were obviously angling to claim imo, and I posit that the way you softed had quite a lot of scum motivation and very little town motivation. At best you don't get a cc and boom, you're now a gc. At worst for scum!sky, you traded your lynch for a goon cop nk.

b) You wrote up a post earlier about if someone fake-claimed that there were *very* strong odds of being cc'd -> you knew quite well that the odds of there being a real gc was relatively high and I don't see why you wouldn't take that reasonable outcome into account before you gambitted. Like you're basically arguing that Lego is at fault for claiming when I think that a reasonable reading of your post indicates that you were planning on claiming and from his POV that means you're lying; a cc if one existed was a reasonable outcome of your gambit and I still don't see the town motivation.

c) I've never played with town!you but you *really* don't seem like the type of town-player who would just do something like this for the lols without taking into account the reasonable outcomes (ie a cc is relatively likely to exist and you might out a PR for little town-benefit), so I'm pretty sure you understand my point. I mean I'm now pretty sure that you're scum so you can't agree with me, but the fact that you're faulting lego here feels wrong from you.

d) I don't know how my post is WIFOM, nor do I believe it hinges on the idea that you were not committed to a lynch this phase; I honestly have no idea where you're getting that from because I don't believe I said or implied that *anywhere*

[skitter30]

Is there like any reason to drag this out?

[skitter30]

I mean I think sky is pretty blatantly scum so I'm asking if there's any reason why we shouldn't just lynch him.

And you were objecting to no-lynch at day start?

[skitter30]

I'm confirming my theory right now, that's it.

Or did you forget the three people I had chose to Lynch earlier?

lol

Skitter I'll reply in detail shortly. But basically it hinges on there's no reason for me to, as scum, fake gambit when scum!me could have just hammered no lynch and won the game by killing town!Jay and mislynching whoever in the next day phase.

You're positing town!jay and even though you said that they did not act in a town-motivated fashion in the aftermath of your gambit.

Like the scum motivation is you winning today on a mislynch. I don't think you completely have the game in the bag on a no-lynch today, as I don't think you have an obvious mislynch tomorrow.

p-edit: yeah exactly what NM said in his last post.

p-edit #2: not policying lynching in MYLO and NM is hands down the towniest person in the game rn.

-----> One of sky / Jay is the unrecruited traitor imo, or groupscum doesn't have daytalk; the way they're talking rn feels s v s, like they're trying to coordinate and I don't think they'd be talking like that in the thread if they could talk freely elsewhere.

I feel like sky is the traitor? Like the fact that he *kinda* claimed implies he didn't know if there was definitely another PR who would cc him?

[skitter30]

This simply has no basis in reality, does anyone here sincerely think Sky could have easily gotten a mislynch tomorrow?

If theoretically we no lynched this day phase, and scum!me killed town!Jay, then I would only need one wrong vote from Montosh/Lego/Skitter on town!Not_Mafia, iirc at least one of which are willing to do so.

Also the numbers here are weird?

If scum!you kills town!jay, tomorrow we're left with 7 - 4 town (wrong vote from montosh/lego/me on town!nm means all of us are town) and 3 scum. Like this is basically implying a you/screen/nsg team but that seems ridiculously implausible (you just tried to fake a guilty on NSG ....) so this feels like a misdirect?

Also you/screen/nsg means that the scumteam decided to randomly bus screen mid-day 1 for the lols?

[skitter30]

VOTE: Sky

Don't really see a reason not to do this tbh

[skitter30]

Seriously?

gg scum in that case :/

[skitter30]

I have no idea who scum is then.

Jay/Montosh/NSG?

idk

[skitter30]

I mean clearly Montosh/Jay but I don't know who the third is. I guess NM?

[skitter30]

I honestly don't even know who you're talking to.

[skitter30]

Yeah it's not me either. If it isn't me or you, and screen isn't scum with Jay/Montosh (see gross wagon), and if sky is really town, it would have to be NSG I guess?

But he was so scummy today ....

[skitter30]

If you lot really won can you just say who it was instead of trolling? This is low key kinda stressful lol

[skitter30]

If you lot really won can you just say who it was instead of trolling? This is low key kinda stressful lol

[skitter30]

Yes, I got that, I've been saying that for days lol.

Who's the third scum?

p-edit: yeah I wish I had, sigh

[skitter30]

Yeah I gotta learn not to believe associatives in LYLO; this is exactly what happened to me last time too :/

I guess NSG? And sky fake-claimed. This is just like one bad PR decision after another, sigh.

I actually had a whole post written up where I showed that NSG reacted weirdly to a fake-claim on her, and my conclusion was basically: Lego is telling the truth, sky is probably faking, but NSG reacted in a scum-indicative way and that something incredibly wonky was going in in {lego/sky/nsg} beyond the obvious cc, but I decided not to post it because I thought NM would call me out for fence-sitting :/

[skitter30]

Yeah I was going to push that *despite* sky fake-claiming and if he kept to the claim I would have pushed for your lynch despite the 1v1

[skitter30]

Is it bad that I kinda want to lynch montosh to force scum to shoot within the PRs or no-kill or risk making them (ie jay) look even worse?

I was kinda hoping someone would like respond to this ...

[skitter30]

"Idk. Seriously though we nearly got screwed there. If Sky hadn't fakeclaimed I'm pretty sure I'd have been lynched."

How so? I didn't see any real lynch options this day phase.

I think skitter had enough town cred to get my lynch going. I wanted to shoot her all game but then we kept finding PRs.

Yeah that's basically what happens to me ... I'm not really mislynchable and scum doesn't tend to realize that until mid-late game, at which point there are PRs that need to be kiled before me, except I usually have enough towncred and decent enough reads to be really threatening in LYLO because I can get small groups of players to do what I want most of the time.

p-edit: yeah I was low-key suspecting that you lot shot the worst and I couldnt figure out why the fuck you thought that was a good idea

Or why A50 decided to protect him ...

[skitter30]

I was like: OK, esp shot him, and A50 protected him. We're still missing a nk.

And one of montosh's posts very carefully listed all the possibilities of how a nk might go missing but he glossed over the fact that they could have shot the worst, which I noticed at some point. Or at least, I noticed that he glossed over the fact that htey could have hit the traitor and thought that was why the post bothered me, but I later realized it was because it glossed over the possibility of the-worst shot.

But yeah the vig *and* scum both decided to shoot a really random player (not so much on the vig's part), and the bg decided to protect him too, which just fucked up nka completely.

And then jay's fake result on una led esp to shoot una, and yeah the prs this game kinda made weird choices.

And that's not even geting into the fake-claim, sigh

[skitter30]

Yeah, I at least got the fact that you probably didn't have a JOAT from there , but that's all I was able to figure out from your power roles.

p-edit: yeah that's like the only one that makes sense to pick in this setup imo, and maybe daytalk.

So the PRs for town were vig/cop/bg, and you guys recruited the traitor.

[skitter30]

And you guys knew Sky was lying!town which is why you didn't believe his claim, sigh.

[skitter30]

Wtf was this game lol?

[skitter30]

I was also getting some niggling doubts on NM in that he waited for me to vote tbh, but yeah, I didn't do anything about it lol, and then the twilight trolling confused the fuck out of me.

[skitter30]

I thought you played really well considering. I was kinda worried that you were scum pocketing me or lego, but overall you were really really town. I don't really know if there was much you could have done day 2 tbh.

I just don't think you made much sense as a nk (or a vig kill or a bg protect) in that gamestate which is what majorly confused me day 2 because overall I thought you were town but you were soft-guiltied if A50 hadn't protected you, and I just didn't see him doing that (but he did ....)

Oh I just realized that I think jay scumslipped somewhere, give me a sec

p-edit <3

[skitter30]

Actually nm lol

Anyway, good job scum team

[skitter30]

I guess I kinda wish town was around a bit more because I felt like I was talking to myself a lot.

P-edit I was never going to let a screen lynch happen because his wagon compostion was gross the first time around and with flips it became even grosser.

[skitter30]

I argue that a lynch of Not Mafia would have been the correct move, as Jay would have 0 excuse for still being alive D4, AND we'd be down a scum ^_~ But I would have trainwrecked us in the next day phase because I would have pushed hard for a Screen lynch :/

I'd argue that a vig on creature slot or nm slot probably would have been the best play, which iirc I was advocating way back when, but yeah

p-edit: yeah I just couldn't concieve town!sky cc'ing because it was such a bizarre thing to do from a town pov as all it accomplished was outing a pr.

And then the the vig/nk/bg clusterfuck n1. Between the two of those town cohesion basically got majorly messed up.

p-edit: I wanted to leave all the claism alive and lynch montosh and let nk's sort it out at least partially. But then sky retracted so it wouldn't have worked anymore lol

[skitter30]

Yeah I was puzzling through the mess that was n1 after the worst flip and I sent a list of questions to Math about what would happen in various scenarios lol (if a bg protected someone, and a vig shot the same person, and in the interest of being thorough, if a strongman shot them too),

[skitter30]

Subject: Open 711: The House (Mod PT)

Today might come down to who Jay claims to have roleblocked. From Espe's perspective, the singular kill means either he or mafia were blocked. If Jay claims that he blocked Espe, Jay can be "confirmed town".

From scum's perspective, they know there's no roleblocker, so they know that A50 protected the worst. To them, a vig doesn't exist yet.

Yeah I realized this and I was going to go back and try to reread day2 with this in mind but keeping track of like four layers of what various people could've known when depending on if they were town, scum, or unrecruited traitor was getting kinda confusing and so I wasn't really able to come to any conclusions from this.

I just settled for noting that scum would be behaving weirdly around the tvt of the worst and esp and that's pretty much what solidified the montosh scumread.