Newbie 1765 | URW | Endgame

[Nachomamma8]

Good morning.

[Nachomamma8]

LicketyQuickety, what do you mean by IC? You're an experienced ayer right, meant to help us noobs? Are can ICs be assigned as mafia?

I am the ICs, which stand for "Inexperienced Challenged" player. My primary job is to help guide you through whatever part of the game you're struggling with and to demonstrate "typical play" to a certain degree. Mafia is an interesting game where there are not really "right" and "wrong" answers; certain things produce better results than others and certain things work better for some people than they do for others, the key is developing a playstyle that allows you to figure out where you're going wrong and improve as a result. As a result, the two ways that I will be the most useful to you are by answering questions - any question (what are you doing? why are you doing this? does that really work?) I will answer to the best of my ability, and, if you're interesting in learning, the best thing to do is ask questions. The second way I will be useful to you is the observations you can make from my play and my interactions with the more experienced players - you'll learn how to get a game started, you'll learn how I tend to lead, and you'll learn how I hunt scum or how I fool town. As an IC, it is not my job to hold back or baby you - I'll treat you just how I treat any other player I come across, which means that if I'm reading as scum, I won't give you room unless you earn it. If my play is bothering you, of course, don't hesitate to talk to me about it - I am at the end of the day a reasonable person despite my aggression and it's not my intention to make this experience unfun for you in any way.

[Nachomamma8]

ICs can be any alignment I believe, they're here to help the new, troubled players with the ways things work and etc however no more than that - correct me if I'm wrong though. Hopefully we have a spike of activity at one point otherwise this game may get difficult.

Content doesn't spring from nothing; there were probably things that you could have done to get the game moving at this point.

[Nachomamma8]

The goal for day one is to create conversation. A self-vote doesn't really have the ability to do that. Which is why it's considered scummy to vote for yourself.

I don't agree with this.
I don't think that self-voting yourself is scummy; most things are about the intention behind them and at the end of the day scum don't really have that much reason to vote for yourself. I do think that self-votes can generate discussion; they are a thing that confuses people and when people are confused they tend to talk. Whether the content generated is meaningful is a different story but typically content is generated.

[Nachomamma8]

However, the reason I didn't vote for TheDominator37 is because we need that conversation to happen. A bandwagon on day 1 does almost nothing if we aren't actually talking.

I don't really understand what you're saying here.

You think Dom is the scummiest due to the self-vote, and you want to vote him. However, you're not voting him because people haven't talked enough to get a wagon going? Is that correct?

[Nachomamma8]

As my first action, the cop is

going

to investigate Nachomamma8 and you are going to Town read me for saying such.

So you're saying you would want a cop to come out day 2 and tell the mafia who they are?
Doesn't seem like town play to me

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

LQ obviously didn't say anything about the cop outing Day 2.

If you are town, you assumed something about LQ's statement that you shouldn't have. If you are scum, you just stretched your neck out too far to make a bad attack. I think that it's the latter; convince me otherwise.

Vote: ConnorJC

[Nachomamma8]

Town read on Connor JC.

Odd that you'd have a townread on someone after they just accused you of trying to get the cop to out when that wasn't the case at all.

[Nachomamma8]

That's not odd. That's what town would do. I didn't mean to include the second part of my last post, didn't notice Connor had posted about it already.

Why would town do it?
Why wouldn't scum do it?

[Nachomamma8]

The only way we'd know a cop actually made that investigation is if they came out and claimed cop and said what they did. It's not town's job to convince other players they are town, instead, it's town's job to find scum.

And yet LQ didn't say anything about cop outing to confirm that they made that investigation.
Town's job is more than just "finding scum". Town's job is being townread by other players, it's presenting their cases in a way that convinces people that they're right and gets people to convince you of a different way if you're wrong. Town's job is mediating conflicts between players that could cause damage to the town as a whole, it's about keeping players contributing and engaged so they become more emotionally invested which makes them harder to lynch and more likely to take an investment in the arguments presented.

[Nachomamma8]

As he said, it was a reaction test.

Do you think that it makes sense for the reaction test to get a good result from people who misrepresent what he's saying? Do you think misrepresenting others is a townie thing to do?

[Nachomamma8]

Yes, well, I don't read people in a traditional way.

Can you back it up?
If you have reasoning that trends outside the box, then that's "non-traditional".
If you don't, then you're reading with gut which is plenty traditional if incredibly difficult to calibrate.

[Nachomamma8]

Town would do it because it helps bring attention to someone with knowledge of the starting scenario, i.e. a power role that could be mafia or town.
Mafia wouldn't do it because it lets information about the game slip. (Namely, it would narrow down the possibilities for the starting scenario and what other power roles are out there.)

Hmmm.

The only way that LQ would have information about the starting scenario is if he was a power role or mafia; if he was a power role, I personally don't think that he'd be interested in painting a huge target on his back and hinting to the other PR (if one exists) that he is town early is silly when he can confirm himself if he has to by claiming.

[Nachomamma8]

Town cannot win by simply getting townread. While town should not play so scummy that they are randomly getting scumread, trying to convince one player I'm town is a waste of time I could be using to find scum (A way better outcome).

I never said that town could win just by getting townread; instead, my response was geared towards showing that there were a lot of moving pieces in winning a game as town. In this scenario, responding to me means that A) you're gaining a better understanding of my reading of you, which is a good hint to my alignment B) you're convincing me that you're town, which means that I'll direct pressure elsewhere and thus you're improving town's chances of finding scum, and C) you're creating an interaction for everyone to observe, which will make both of our respective alignments clearer to the town.

I don't think that it's a "waste of time" to engage another player who is suspecting you.

[Nachomamma8]

He said that we would read him town because of the cop check. For that to happen we'd have to know about the check.

He said that people were going to read him town because he said that the cop should investigate me. He didn't say that people were going to read him town because of the check itself.

[Nachomamma8]

That's not odd. That's what town would do. I didn't mean to include the second part of my last post, didn't notice Connor had posted about it already.

Why would town do it?
Why wouldn't scum do it?

Town would almost never post something like that with actually info, as the only town that can know there's a cop is the doctor. Also, the mafia will have a roleblocker, so they'll probably be able to guess that person's a doc.

The only town that knows there's a cop is the cop. Doctor knows there could be a cop or a tracker but doesn't know for sure.
Mafia don't know if there is a cop in the setup or not.

[Nachomamma8]

I think he was looking for someone to point out the fact that he looks like he has knowledge of the setup, but maybe I'm wrong.

There's no reason to point this out before LQ has a chance to respond; Superhaus was probably directing that question at LQ in order to get a better read on him, which he can't do as effectively if you're providing all of LQ's answers for him.

[Nachomamma8]

So, are you saying LQ is scum?

Also, Mafia Roleblocker would know one of two different sets of power roles could be in play. If LQ is a Mafia Roleblocker than they are finding out which is valid.

Either LQ is scum, or your premise that his information is real is a false premise because the only motivation that makes sense for someone with information is that he's attempting to narrow down the setup, which to me seems like a pretty big risk for the possibility of a tiny gain. I think that he was probably bullshitting with the cop stuff.

[Nachomamma8]

My point is that I'd like to avoid getting into a long drawn out argument that benefits nobody but scum.

I never said "let's get into a long drawn out argument that benefits nobody but scum" and as far as I can see there aren't any signs that we were headed in that direction. Is there something that I was missing, or did you maybe pull away a bit prematurely?

[Nachomamma8]

Mafia don't know if there is a cop in the setup or not.

Am I correct though that if there is a mafia roleblocker they know there may be a cop (and a doc)?

Mafia roleblocker knows that the setup is either cop and a doc OR Jailkeeper and a BP. They don't know if there's a cop or not.

[Nachomamma8]

Probably. He's the IC, it was likely a conversation starter.

LQ's one of the three SEs this game.
I'm the only IC.

I agree with your conclusion, though.

[Nachomamma8]

"Am I correct though that if there is a mafia roleblocker they know there may be a cop (and a doc)?"
Yes, yes he is.

Just clarifying in case what he meant to say was slightly off from what he said.

[Nachomamma8]

You told me to convince you that I'm town. That's basically the start of an argument between you and me if I try to do that directly.

Which is why I didn't tell you to do it directly, I just told you to do it and encouraged that you didn't just ignore me in the process.
But, that's neither here nor there; I'm townreading you as a result at this point and pushing a townread will only get me so far.

[Nachomamma8]

But anyways: At what point is it good to go lurker-hunting?

Better question: When is it a bad idea to lurker-hunt?
Answer: Never.

Vote: Lovesick

[Nachomamma8]

(For a more complete response, hunting lurkers or people who haven't contributed much at all is generally a good idea - most people are uncomfortable fooling people and thus have more trouble posting content as scum than town; you typically don't want to lynch someone for lurking because people lurk for many more reasons than their alignment, but if you have a bunch of townreads elsewhere and you're not ignoring something actively scummy just to lynch a lurker, then generally lurkerhunting is a good idea. In this particular situation, I prefer Lovesick over the other two since Lovesick's post was the most alignment-neutral; FP and Dom at least tried to do something with their opening while Lovesick just answered a question that she'd have the same answer to as either alignment).

[Nachomamma8]

Of those other two I think FancyPants is the scummiest. So,

VOTE: FancyPants

Why just focus on the other two?

[Nachomamma8]

Although if FancyPants/Lovesick is the scumteam I hope we all look back at this moment and have a nice chuckle about it.

[Nachomamma8]

RVS (the opening stage) is typically characterized by voting people for silly reasons. Sometimes I participate, sometimes I don't, but voting early game for a silly reason is as alignment-neutral as alignment-neutral gets.

It's okay to hunt multiple lurkers at once but if one deserves suspicion more than the other two then it seems smarter to combine efforts on one.

[Nachomamma8]

Could be, likely actually, but as what alignment is what I think is more interesting.

I'd say that Superhaus's approach was townier than not, but I don't think that it said anything about Connor's alignment. Do you?

[Nachomamma8]

What makes you think I was BS with the cop thing? I did it to generate content as well as making a true statement (if the is a cop and its not you) as well as a reaction test. Tell me what is "BS" about that?

Well, you made a post that looked sketchy (in particular, by pretending to have knowledge of a cop in the game) in order to generate information. That is bullshitting.

Your suggestion to have the cop investigate me was also something that I thought you were lying about because it's remarkably short-sighted; cop wants to investigate people who will be alive; if I am scum and you don't feel you can catch me on play, you can catch me by my partner's play and you can catch me by forming town blocks; wasting an investigative role on someone who scum probably needs to shoot eventually is silly.

[Nachomamma8]

Could be, likely actually, but as what alignment is what I think is more interesting.

I'd say that Superhaus's approach was townier than not, but I don't think that it said anything about Connor's alignment. Do you?

No.

Reread that post. I questioned why Super made such a quick change to voting a lurker. You disagree?

I do.

[Nachomamma8]

You are a (slight [which you misinterpreted]) Scum read for fishing for info in a way that is not clearly town mindset. You are smart which is why I am saying this.

Asking someone what they are doing when they are doing something confusing is not fishing; it's proper play.

[Nachomamma8]

That's a fast change mate, mind explaining?

I expect the "combine our efforts" phraseology gave away pretty solidly what the purpose of the vote was, and Superhaus's assertion that he'd unvote when Lovesick gave content showed that he picked up on that purpose. It would be a scummy change of mindset of what he made was a vote with the intention of lynching, but that pretty clearly wasn't the case.

[Nachomamma8]

The goal for day one is to create conversation. A self-vote doesn't really have the ability to do that. Which is why it's considered scummy to vote for yourself.

It seems to be working rn

I don't like this attempt to take credit for starting conversation; it should be obvious that very little (if any at all) discussion is centering around your self-vote.

I also don't like the vote on Superhaus; seems like an easy vote to make with LQ backing you up.

Vote: TheDominator37

[Nachomamma8]

Well, It gave me a Town read that you don't disagree with.

Saying that you were bullshitting wasn't a criticism of your play, merely an observation that you weren't telling the whole truth.

[Nachomamma8]

What's the cause of this bandwagon on me again? Inactivity? That's a bit unfair if you ask me considering i was asleep during all of the activity. (I wont be quoting posts because my only available source of playing this is my phone so I don't know how to format my posts with quotations on this particular forum)

I got townreads on a few of the players who were around early game because it seemed like they were hitting the ground running; you didn't. I made the vote with the knowledge that I could be taking it off shortly after you showed up and posted; that doesn't necessarily mean that it's time wasted.

[Nachomamma8]

So Nachos, how is it a good idea to start hunting for lurkers when 24 hours hasn't past, not giving the players enough time to post as they may have things going on in their lives or are simply asleep? Also for the others which had jumped the wagon on myself, explain to me what type of evidence are you trying to gather from this?

You keep framing the wagons like they have no purpose unless they are perfectly justified - nothing in mafia will be perfectly justified. Oftentimes you will catch scum for the wrong reasons. Content generation is about putting people in positions where they will have alignment-relevant reactions; maybe everyone votes you and you simply flake out (not alignment indicative), or maybe you get fired up and try to read the people voting you (what you did). I'm fine with giving people room as far as lynching is concerned, but I have no problems with pursuing a lead whenever and wherever I might find them.

[Nachomamma8]

Personally in my opinion, the only right moment for lurker hunting is if they had contributed nothing at all and half of our given time has gone. I mean otherwise, hunting for lurkers is a very easy way of lynching players and if done right, can be an advantage to the scum more so than the town as the ratio of mafia to town is 2:7.

If I have solid townreads on three people and I lynch a lurker, I have a 40% chance of lynching scum. If I have solid townreads on 5 people and I lynch a lurker, I have a 66% chance of lynching scum. You point out that the odds are against us early but that shouldn't mean anything; when we lynch we aren't lynching randomly and waiting for information to fall into our lap is silly when there is no guarantee it will ever do so.

[Nachomamma8]

Yes, well, I don't read people in a traditional way.

Can you back it up?
If you have reasoning that trends outside the box, then that's "non-traditional".
If you don't, then you're reading with gut which is plenty traditional if incredibly difficult to calibrate.

yes, I have reasons for my unconventional reads, but I don't like to explain them so I try and get people to do what I want though other means. I've been playing a lot less "direct" lately. Take that for what you will.

here and here for reference of my reasoning.

If your reasons are good, what use is there in hiding them?

[Nachomamma8]

And now I have a question for you Nacho: No talk of RVS, no initial opening IC post. In other words, your experience is showing. Why vote Connor?

Connor misrepresented you in order to leverage an attack on you, which is the reasoning I gave for voting him before. I began to dislike the push when he continued scumhunting; his response to my "convince me that you're town" comment also had some pretty genuine lines (such as encouraging me to convince everyone else that he was scummy) that I didn't think would come from scum.

[Nachomamma8]

1) You said you would unvote them once they posted, so not only is this a non-committal vote, but it defeats the purpose of the vote in the first place.

I disagree that the purpose of the vote was defeated; he wanted Lovesick to take positions on things, she took positions on things. I don't think it's a problem to be non-committal with things; it's not like everyone is confident in the early early stages of the game.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, we've kinda moved on from discussing the Lovesick Wagon, as it wasn't really that fruitful.

Why wasn't it fruitful?

[Nachomamma8]

2) You are asking something of someone that you haven't done adequately enough yourself ie. reads. You make it sound like the lurker should have definite stances at this point in the game, when you yourself are not doing anything close to that.

Superhaus asked for opinions, not concrete stances; I don't think that there's a rule.that you need to flesh out your own reads before asking for the reads of others.

[Nachomamma8]

Huge amounts of arguments in which Lovesick was ONLY commenting large amounts of defensive content, and not actually offering anything original at all.

The scumread on me wasn't original? Who was she sheeping on it? What is your read on her and why?

[Nachomamma8]

You then go on to interpret why I read the post as Scummy, so you clearly know at least part of the reason for why it is Scummy, which leaves me wondering why you made the post in the first place as Town...

I can't say that I believe that "other people might find this scummy!" should ever be a reason not to press submit as town.

[Nachomamma8]

both saying about the same thing (one just more elaborate) and that makes for an over explanation and over explanations (in defence) are Scummy in my book.

I think it would be more precise to say that Superhaus was rattled moreso than scummy; sometimes you get under people's skin regardless of their alignment. As town, Superhaus is probably rattled because he feels like he's made a mistake as town (which is consistent with his belief that the Lovesick wagon was fruitless) and is freaking out about it a tiny bit whereas if he was scum he was scared because you caught him with his hand in the cookie jar. Either way, I'm not sure the nervousness itself is alignment indicative.

[Nachomamma8]

Probably. He's the IC, it was likely a conversation starter.

I take issue with this... Nacho is a much much better player than myself. I also detailed that I am NOT the IC this game because I didn't/don't want the responsibility.

VOTE: Rautherdir

You are not paying attention.

Why is not paying attention worth a vote?

[Nachomamma8]

How can you possibly want a 'lurker' to act aggressively if you had not seen their playstyle so you have no idea if their preferable playstyle is exactly what you want? It has never made sense to me as to why people pressure vote so early when there is minimal content related to them. Playstyle/reaction also barely defines what alignment they may be - especially in a newbie game where there can be relatively new players who have no idea as to how to react and respond to things.

In this specific situatuon, if you weren't annoyed at the bandwagon on you that you thought was started unfair reasons, you might not have had the same emotional engagement you had otherwise; sometimes lurking is a tell of a player who would rather wait until they have more solid information to act upon until doing something and early pressure is a way to bring them into the fold. You're right that the reactions are probably more personality indicative than alignment indicative but better understanding of a person's personality is still useful and having that reaction for later once we understand you better is still just as useful.

[Nachomamma8]

There are no scum or town reads not ones which can be based from a logical stand point based on facts, ony ones made from opinion and thoughs. The only person I have ill feelings to are Nacho as i feel as though he is trying very hard to lead this game and is coming off as a little too strong for me however what have you had to offer which could be of serious use other than this bandwagon on me?

Mafia is not a game of facts; it is a game of well-founded opinions and it is a game of logical arguments but it is not a game based on facts. You used a night kill as an example of solid information, but is it really that solid? If I die tonight, you don't know whether people are afraid of me because I'm an IC or they're using my horrible reads to frame others or they think they caught a PR crumb of mine or they have played with me before and want to do something they've done in a previous game that I was a part of; instead, you need to make an educated guess on what happened and why.

[Nachomamma8]

More precise or difference of opinion? There is not a clear cut answer here. It will be left to intuition. BTW, why do you keep defending the guy?

I think more precise unless you have reasoning behind not liking him repeating the same reasoning that I haven't addressed.

I keep defending him because I think your approach (especially in regards to him) is flawed.

[Nachomamma8]

What, is it normal for newbies to not even try to figure out what they're doing?

What were you referring to here?

[Nachomamma8]

There are two scum. They could conceivably quickhammer. It would be a stupid move, but it's still a move that could happen.

This shouldn't be a significant concern of yours; trading one townie for the scumteam (which is typically what happens in those situations) is a trade that the Town is perfectly comfortable in making.

[Nachomamma8]

What, is it normal for newbies to not even try to figure out what they're doing?

What were you referring to here?

Post #141

Man, you really like dragging up old posts.

Should I just be ignoring them instead?

[Nachomamma8]

LicketyQuickety, you've voted for Rautherdir. Would you want to convince others to do the same and why?

I don't want to "force" anything. I am not Rampage.

Aiming to convince doesn't mean that you're forcing things through.

[Nachomamma8]

I'll catch up in full after work today; also leaving for Christmas vacation on Thursday (and have a bunch of stuff to do before then) so will probably have less access until that's over.

[Nachomamma8]

The goal for day one is to create conversation. A self-vote doesn't really have the ability to do that. Which is why it's considered scummy to vote for yourself.

It seems to be working rn

I don't like this attempt to take credit for starting conversation; it should be obvious that very little (if any at all) discussion is centering around your self-vote.

I also don't like the vote on Superhaus; seems like an easy vote to make with LQ backing you up.

Vote: TheDominator37

Then what started it if my wagon didn't?

LQ's 6 created more meaningful conversation than your self-vote did.

[Nachomamma8]

Connor, why do you think that Dom is a bad line of pursuit? So far, the only contribution he's managed to make is attempting to take credit for starting the game, which doesn't really seem like a town mindset to me.

[Nachomamma8]

Connor, why do you think that Dom is a bad line of pursuit? So far, the only contribution he's managed to make is attempting to take credit for starting the game, which doesn't really seem like a town mindset to me.

If we don't find anything better by the end of the day I'd happily lynch Dom; however, there's no point pressuring a player who's only posts are prod dodges when I could be looking for scum where I have information.

If you think Dom has the greatest chance for flipping scum, you should probably vote him; keeping your vote somewhere doesn't mean that you can't use your words to look somewhere else.

[Nachomamma8]

Rauthedir, you should always always always hold off on claiming until L-1; occasionally you can risk waiting until intent is claimed before you say something if you trust the playerlist, but you should always at least be waiting until L-1.

[Nachomamma8]

Are you kidding me? I thought TheDom at least made 2 more posts, but I guess I read wrong.
TheDom is either a horrible town player or scum.

The reason why I think scum over "bad town player" based on his latest post is because of where his posting is focused. When Dom came to the thread, he thought that the most important thing that he could do was take credit for starting early discussion; a town player

probably

wouldn't be interested in whether they started discussion or not; instead, they'd be worried about finding scum. What Dom's focus demonstrated is that he's more worried about his image than anything else, which is a sign of scum.

Maybe. I would go after FancyPants, but he already gave a reason for his lack of voting.

Reasons only go as far as you can throw them. If you think something is Scummy, vote it. Its this kind of attitude that is not typical of Townies.

Some people hesitate more than others; this isn't necessarily alignment indicative.

[Nachomamma8]

@Lovesick, what are your thoughts on a town (maybe PR?) Rautherdir?

Possible. He's a new player who's currently fumbling on his words out of pressure being put on him.. I've seen it happen to town and scum and all sorts of roles that these players come out as.
The more important thing here is how people would react to him making a claim on a power role.

Now that Rautherdir has gone through his claiming but not claiming song and dance, he is all but 100% confirmed town; scum claiming PR with so little pressure at this point and risking a counterclaim doesn't really make sense. Town claiming this early because they are afraid they will get hammered before they have the chance to speak does.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm reviewing LoveSick's ISO at the moment. I'm early into analyzing the posts, but as far as I can see LoveSick has defended TheDom a lot. I find this weird because TheDom has contributed very little, so I wonder why LoveSick would prop it up so much. This could be a response to getting hammered pretty hard as a lurker herself though.

If I remember correctly (I don't have time to check back now so I'm operating with nothing more than memory), Lovesick didn't actually defend TheDom that much, only speak out against voting a lurker wagon in general, which is perfectly consistent with her initial reaction to the wagon against her.

UNVOTE: TheDominator37
VOTE: Nachomamma8
I think it's time we got some scum.

Talk to me about your vote here; you say that it wasn't a reaction test, but clearly you expected something from it. What was your goal with this vote?

@ConnorJC,
Why do you think Nacho is scum?

Also considering his vast experience, and how logical he has been (so far), do you think that if he were actually scum, we would have a chance of proving it, and lynching him?

It doesn't matter whether you "prove" if I'm scum or not; the only thing that matters is lynching me. Again, if you're not confident in your townread on a player, try reading players around them; the pool of possible scum eventually will get small enough to the point where a townread has to be wrong (and it makes sense to press players you have the smallest amount of confidence in reading in your town pool).

Does that make sense?

[Nachomamma8]

Yet here you say when I say its not typical behavior of a Townie, you make the point of saying it is NAI.

What am I missing here?

I was criticizing Dom for showing up and doing nothing but focusing on his self-image. You were criticizing Rautherdir for his hesitance. These are two different things.

[Nachomamma8]

I've seen more elaborate fakes before if I am being honest.

How elaborate it is has nothing to do with it.

[Nachomamma8]

Doesn't make sense to have him claim at this point; the only thing it does is tell scum proper night play. There is no reason why we would lynch him Day 1.

[Nachomamma8]

I've seen more elaborate fakes before if I am being honest.

How elaborate it is has nothing to do with it.

But whether or not it is being done, is something that must be considered. I am saying I think its possible that it is a farce and use evidence that I have seen more advanced fakes to show that it is an actual possibility.

If Rautherdir is faking, there's a high probability that they're outed down the road. It's better to leave it until later when we have more information; this isn't a universal suspect wagoned at the end of the day, it's a mostly unprovoked PR claim and that very rarely comes from scum in this setup.

[Nachomamma8]

Right now, my reads in individual posts as opposed to consolidated reads is borne less from laziness and more from lack of time. When I have time to make a nice pretty reads list, then I will.

[Nachomamma8]

(Explanation in my post 660.

You thought he was scum because he contradicted himself?

[Nachomamma8]

Unprovoked? Naw, I don't think so.

Did anyone ask him to claim PR?

[Nachomamma8]

Did anyone tell him that it was time to claim?

[Nachomamma8]

There was very clear pressure on R and that can scare Scum and Town into premature claiming in a newbie game.

Find me one newbie game where scum prematurely claimed PR.

[Nachomamma8]

Fakeclaiming is a skill that most newbies haven't quite learned until they've played a few games, which means they're typically too conservative with fakeclaiming as opposed to too aggressive. Fakeclaiming a PR early as scum in this setup is suicidal, meaning that an experienced player wouldn't advise them to fakeclaim prematurely. Truthfully claiming prematurely as town is a pretty frequent phenomenon; you have a role, you have no idea when and if you're supposed to out it, you don't want to get lynched without claiming it.

Your argument that scum and town both out early is not a good one; scum and town deal with pressure in different ways in this particular situation. Scum typically try other tactics (lurking out pressure, AtEing, OMGUSing) before resorting to claiming their role while town who misjudges momentum tends to claim their role pretty quickly.

[Nachomamma8]

I alluded to this before - That Dom could be not posting on purpose as a reaction test. Dom is seeing me taking the lead and seems fine with that.

This seems like a low-likelihood theory.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm going to read LQ as town for now.
To be honest, I'm not really sure how to continue now.

You're very noncommittal, almost like you're a scum trying to blend in. I don't like the part of the game where you jump on every lurker bandwagon one after another. I like you voting LQ, but I don't like the reasons you ended up providing for it.

Why would you say that you didn't know how to continue when you had a scumread that you hadn't yet attempted to pursue?

That, and I didn't like his lack of reasoning and found it pretty scummy.

Connor, why did you scumread this post?

[Nachomamma8]

You are saying claiming a PR is too advanced a play to make and back that up by saying that it is "suicidal."

Town and Scum do not ALWAYS deal with pressure in different ways. What happens when you corner a Dog who is abused? The Dog could be in the right or in the wrong, it doesn't matter, it is going to attack.

And IIRC I believe you used the same logic as this at some point in the game.

I'm not saying that it's advanced. I'm saying that it's unlikely.

I don't mean to say that Town and Scum always deal with pressure in different ways; I mean to say that they deal with pressure in different ways wrt roleclaiming.

[Nachomamma8]

And I disagree. I have seen Town claim Doc as VT When they were prolly getting lynched and it nearly cost Town the game. And this was a player with some experience as well.

This is completely different from the situation that we're looking at now.

[Nachomamma8]

And I disagree. I have seen Town claim Doc as VT When they were prolly getting lynched and it nearly cost Town the game. And this was a player with some experience as well.

This is completely different from the situation that we're looking at now.

Not really. Its a person claiming PR because they feel cornered.

Which is a more complicated situation than you're currently making it.

[Nachomamma8]

Connor makes a very relevant point, that being an IC Nacho would technically be unable to lie about game theory, i.e he couldn't say newb scum never fakeclaim, if actually they often do fake claim.

I will never lie about a game theory question.

The question you're talking about in particular (do newb scum fakeclaim?) is one that I could lie about being that it's based on personal experience as opposed to theory (I also hope you realize my read is more nuanced than that!). Does that make sense?

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho
How many Newb games have you personally participated in or spectated?

Quite a few; couldn't give you an exact number, but at the absolute minimum 75.

[Nachomamma8]

Err... not its not? Its based on instinct which is pretty much as basic as it gets?

And instinct of a player who is new to playing scum isn't to claim PR immediately.
When you first started playing, your instinct when you were overwhelmed by pressure was to disappear completely; this is a far more typical reaction than "claiming PR out of the blue". Off the top of my head, I can remember about 2 extremely premature claims (both VT claims, both town); extremely premature claims are pretty rare in the first place and the risk that the move carries for a scum player,

especially

for a PR claim, makes it that much more unlikely that it's coming from scum.

[Nachomamma8]

I scumread it because he flat out admitted his motive was self defense rather than actually finding LQ scummy.

You're the one who put the self-defense word in his mouth in the first place; his reasons were to get LQ to give a reason for voting him in the first place, and then gave additional reasoning why it bothered him, which is a different from "pure self-defense".

[Nachomamma8]

Remember this post if I flip.

I think your purpose might be better served with a bit more transparency here; what meaning do you expect people to get from "look at this!"?

Nacho, why haven't you called anything Townie or Scummy?

I've expressed viewpoints, I've formed an idea of what I think the gamestate is, I've been posting arguments pursuing that gamestate. I don't remember what words I've used to do so but if I've avoided saying "townie" and "scummy" a whole lot this game then I don't think it matters as long as I'm still contributing.

[Nachomamma8]

Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.

A hell of a lot more remains than "Rautherdir fakeclaimed early because he's scum!". You still haven't addressed the argument that I'm making here.

I'd like to ask if you have experience playing forum mafia outside of this forum, please.

Yes, I do - why bring this up?

[Nachomamma8]

But there is still a chance that your "solid town read" can be scum right?

Yes.
What does this have to do with anything?

Yeah if han is scum we're lynchng rauth and vice versa

Why?

I disagree. My vote and more people talling about it and had more of a lasting impact

I disagree, but I'm not particularly interesting in this point because I don't think it's that meaningful. Why bring it up? Why was it when you came into the thread in 110 that you felt that the most important thing for you to do was to pat yourself on the back for generating discussion? What was the lasting impact that you believed that it created?

It seems like you are trying to discredit me and I don't know why

I'm scumreading you. I don't think that when you post, you're doing so because you want to find and lynch scum. I aim to make it as transparent as possible so that if I'm wrong, people can correct me, and if I'm right, you can get lynched. Was there some huge contribution that you made at that point that I unfairly missed?

Nacho why the push for my lynch? You misrepped connor to try and get him to join me.

I didn't misrep connor; I was unfamiliar with Connor's top suspect at that point because I wasn't fully caught up.

Nachomamma. You've left a few questions unanswered. I'd be on the fence regarding you otherwise.

What questions have I left unanswered?
Why is Dominator almost a townread for you; what has he contributed that you agree with or think comes from a town mindset?

[Nachomamma8]

Yes, but you are not even considering it as an option.

It's an option.
It's not what I think happened while you seem so thoroughly convinced to the point that you're pushing back at me for disagreeing.

[Nachomamma8]

Nope, this is the first time you said you thought it was a possibility. The fact that you never said "You could be right, but I doubt it" or something along those lines, shows that you have malicious intent toward my stance.

It's impossible for me to type everything that I think.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm pretty sure you know why I made that comment.

I think I know why, yes. And I think that it's misguided.
But it's extraordinarily difficult for me to refute misguided reasoning if the reasoning doesn't exist in thread and the point that I'm making with regards to people not understanding what you're saying is valid.

[Nachomamma8]

Red herring.

Your argument is that because I haven't taken the time to go "Hey, LQ, there is a small chance that you could be right - this is not where my current thought process is leading me, but, the chance exists", I have "malicious intentions" towards your reasoning. This is an absolutely insane argument; nothing is absolute in mafia. Even if a cop were to come out tomorrow with a guilty on someone that everyone thought was scum, there still would be a chance that the person is lying; as with any player who has been burned horribly more than one time, every single time I post a viewpoint there is always a chance that I am wrong and I am typically (I'd love to say always but I've lost myself at times) aware of that fact. Typing disclaimers in every single argument that I make is redundant and ridiculous when this is a game that, for the most part, lacks solid information - my arguments are all claiming that I can guess the color of your role PM because of some this or that nonsense which is already a pretty shaky premise, which means that it should be obvious that I am never 100% when declaring anyone's alignment.

[Nachomamma8]

As far as solid stances go, game's been going for four days and is already longer than a good number of newbie games; I'm falling behind a bit and that means that I haven't been able to do some things that I'd like to do but will do before Day is over. Providing a fleshed out reads list is one of them. If you need one:

TOWN:
Rautherdir
toblerone187 replaced DefyingGravity
Superhans
LicketyQuickety (SE)

LEAN TOWN:
Lovesick

NULL:
ConnorJC
FancyPants (SE)

SCUM:
TheDominator37 (SE)

[Nachomamma8]

Well, in that case, I will ask if you have actually agreed with anything I have said in this game. Can you point out where you have done so?

Seems like you're missing a point somewhere; how is this related to what I said?

[Nachomamma8]

You just finished answering all the ones I noticed, Nacho. So, I'll probably put you as town now. Which means I get to look at everyone again because I only have one person listed as scummy. As to TheDominator, it stopped being a Lurker, I didn't have enough information at the time to put it as scummy. I'll have to look at it's posts again to reach a new decision.

Previously, you said I'd move to null after I answered all of the questions I haven't yet answered. Why am I now moving up to town?

[Nachomamma8]

Also, all questions that I answered were questions that I wasn't around to answer before - how is not being here to answer questions scummy or am I missing something...?

[Nachomamma8]

Also, you posted reads

Were the reads a surprise to you?
What questions did I give good answers to?

[Nachomamma8]

Well, in that case, I will ask if you have actually agreed with anything I have said in this game. Can you point out where you have done so?

Seems like you're missing a point somewhere; how is this related to what I said?

It makes the point apparent that you have not agreed with me (if you haven't). I consider this a form of discrediting, though, an advanced version of it. That is the reason why I want the answer to this.

I agreed with you on the Connor townread early.
I find it funny that you're bringing out that I haven't agreed with you enough while earlier you said that Connor was agreeing with you too much; I don't tend to explicitly express my agreement with players often since it's typically advances a conversation more to disagree than it does to agree.

[Nachomamma8]

-You assumed in that post that if a person is a solid town read tgat are for sure town.

Oh. When I say "solid" town read, I mean that a town read is good (and thus correct); my initial response was rushed and off base because it seemed like throwaway question.

-their interactions between each other are weird like they were town reading each ther out of the gate. I guess that doesnt really matter anymore because he is conf town.

He's not conf town. Why do you think he's conf town?

-Sure but I have been hunting today and I couldnt in the past because was out of town.

What you are doing now has nothing to do with your original point; your original point what that you've done nothing (and now you're agreeing you hadn't done anything). If you're using "but I've been hunting today" as a pushback against my continued vote on you, I acknowledge that you're in thread trying to do something now but I still don't really think that where you're coming from is genuine.

-But still why didn't you read the thread before pushing for my lynch?

I was mid catch up and was bothered by what looked like Connor finding reasons not to vote you, so I took the opportunity and questioned him while I knew he was around.

[Nachomamma8]

It was a nice surprise. Although now that I think about it someone asked you for them.

As in do the reads look to be different than what you expected or along the lines of what you expected?

[Nachomamma8]

It was a nice surprise. Although now that I think about it someone asked you for them.

As in do the reads look to be different than what you expected or along the lines of what you expected?

Why you scum hunting a Town read mate?

881.

[Nachomamma8]

-But you said just a second ago they could be scum

Yes, I did. I also offered an explanation for why I answered it that way and why that answer wasn't accurate; is there something in that answer that I needed to explain further?

[Nachomamma8]

And up until that point, you were perfectly content to defend R.

So?

[Nachomamma8]

So what magic happened that you all the sudden are Scum hunting someone who before had used such strong

evidence that they are Town?

He did something questionable. I questioned him about it.
Do you recommend that I do something different?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm sure lots of people have done questionable things that I haven't picked up on yet, but, as I've said before, most of my content is geared towards staying caught up lately.

[Nachomamma8]

Also I feel that I've been neglecting people who haven't been in thread at the same time I have recently, so here's a toblerone-centric wall:

One thing I picked up on was Connor answering questions that were not directed at him. I think Nacho did the same at one point but that was in answer to a genral question. Why did Connor do it? To support LQ? He then did it AGAIN even after Superhans had told him he wnted to hear from LQ

The whole LQ/cop thing seems to me either to be an innocent attempt to get conversation going, OR it could be an attempt to make it look like her is. And all the "not traditional" stuff - whilst I have no idea what he means - I don't like it. It could be setting things up for an argument he will use later.

Dominator has been very quiet, but so have I so that is not an indication of anything in my eyes

Rautherdir seemed very keen to hunt lurkers. I don't know if I count as a lurker but are you implying that lurkers are scum?

I understand the sentiment of being lost and not quite knowing what to contribute, but as an IC point, regardless of your alignment, don't worry about contributing something that someone that someone has already said. I know I just got done talking about how agreeing has limited uses, but its main use (reinforcing when people are saying things that make sense) is still important, and, more importantly, contributing (no matter what you are contributing) is how people read you and see your view on the game. It is far far far more common that someone here gets lynched for not contributing much (which is what happens if you're worried about whether what you're posting is original or not) as opposed to contributing something that's already been said; you'll also be surprised how commenting is a diving board for original and deeper content.

I don't find often that people who are commenting on their own playstyle is alignment-relevant (which means that it typically isn't Town or Scum). We are not always the greatest judges of ourselves and thus people can contradict themselves in the future pretty easily; I don't think there's any reason for LQ to lay the groundwork for a later play (I also think that meta-diving LQ proves that he's a "non-traditional" player (whatever that means) more than his words do).

I am a little bothered by you asking whether you're considered a lurker or not; is there a reason to do so? I can think of scum motivation for the question: you're trying to make sure that you won't be involved in the lurker-hunt. Town motivation is a little murkier.

I don;t want to just repeat what other shave said - I think that in itself can be scummy and could be interpreted as an allegiance. I want to avoid that

This particular quote, however, while I explained why I thought it was misguided, I think is town. From a town perspective, it makes sense - toblerone is explaining his play and why he's taking the approach he is. From a scum perspective, he's describing to the town how he is trying to avoid them, which I think is less likely of the two possibilities by far.

but my gut reaction is town. She seems to be new here like me so I get the inactivity

Ok sorry Lovesick is not such a newbie as I had thought

Did this revelation change your read on her at all?
I liked this particular piece of followup; I thought that

[Nachomamma8]

(hit submit, obviously didn't mean to hit submit)

but my gut reaction is town. She seems to be new here like me so I get the inactivity

Ok sorry Lovesick is not such a newbie as I had thought

Did this revelation change your read on her at all?
I liked this particular piece of followup; I thought that it was a genuine move for toblerone to empathize with Lovesick for being new and getting a bit lost and I thought that the "oh crap Lovesick isn't new" revelation increased the chances that it was a genuine observation that he pointed out in the first place.

@Toblerone, if you had to kill someone right now who would it be.

Given the level of content you have posted and now suddenly this question, I would kill you

When I initially read this post, I thought FP was asking who you would kill as scum and townread the brazenness of it.
Now that I actually know what's going on, I don't think your reasoning really holds. Why did you say that FP hadn't made any observations or given any reads when he'd already posted 133 by that point?

frankly I simply cannot understand half of what he is saying. His posts are confusing and full of game theory and Self-aggrandisement. IMO this does not help town at all. And after all the "non-traditional methods" crap it turns out he just uses gut reactions! Well welcome to the club - I'm a noob and that is what I do! No real read because I find reading his posts boring and confusing but gut reaction is that he is trying to bury town under a moutain of "paperwork" therefore scum. I don;t think he is helping town hunt scum.

I like that there's emotional engagement with this read in particular; toblerone seems annoyed that LQ doesn't seem to be pulling his weight in finding scum and that bothers him. I think that it is rarer that scum cares about town who has a confusing or oddball playstyle; from scum's perspective it's more of an opportunity for a mislynch than annoyance and this doesn't read that way.

Mainly gut feel but there were a couple of things such as when LQ said he was agreeing with him a lot and he quickly defended himself.

Why did you find this scummy?
Do you think that LQ had a good point when he said that Connor was agreeing with him a lot or was him quickly defending himself the part that stood out to you?

It was not so much the asking me who I would kill. What got me was that out of all the content posted (very little of which was from me) it seemed strange to me that you would ask such a question of me. There were so many others who had raised so many other points to me but in only your second post of substance you were questioning me about who I would kill. Just seemed odd to me and made me think you were avoiding engaging with others.

Scratch my earlier question now that I see you already answered it.
I think this is an interesting perspective to take. I'd imagine (without reading/remembering FancyPants's response) that he was more inclined to question a low poster over a high poster because he was trying to get a better read on you (and didn't have much of one in place already); you'll notice both questions he asked you were essentially "what are your reads?" packaged in different ways; this is a fairly common baseline question.

My initial thoughts were that I would be reluctant to lynch Dom. I could not see someone deliberately avoiding the thread so obviously if they were scum - it would be suicide and their scum mate would be pushing them to be posting and probably advising them what to post. I took it to be a townie who was simply disinterested in the game or a town newbie that didn't know what to do. I would be reluctant to lynch anyone town, regardless of inactivity as it would be at the least a lost vote for town and worse a possible power role. If they continue to be inactive or only avoid prods they would be replaced.

I understand the perspective addressed here and I think it makes a lot of sense considering toblerone's opening (his recent posting less so but his opening was avoiding posting to repeat other people). I think that the assumption that scum can talk during the day that he makes subtly in this post and more obviously in the next is probably not scum trying to fake a towntell; toblerone's opening posting seemed very genuinely lost and I somehow don't think that he goes from "lost" to "faking townslips" in a matter of four days; I totally buy that he forgot that he didn't have daychat in a game he played in 6 years ago because 6 years ago is a very very long time ago.

@TheDominator37 Good to see that you are now analysing and commenting but can we have some sort of explanation of your absence? Thanks

What do you think of the actual content of what he's posted?

[Nachomamma8]

I think that Toblerone is town largely in part for the daychat slip that he expressed (I believe that he was genuinely lost earlier, I don't believe that he went from lost to faking townslips in the course of 3-4 days), there are a number of tonal things that I think are more likely town than not (I think that his frustration with LQ was genuine and more likely to be coming from town, I liked his annoyance when he felt people were ignoring him, I like his transparency of why he was lurking early and I like how he has approached other lurkers this game). As far as actual gamesolving goes, what he's posted seems genuine and he hasn't been afraid to go his own way at times (his LQ and FancyPants reads both included original reasoning/were serious scumreads before they were scumreads). I would like him to explore his Connor read a bit more since it seems that one has fallen to the wayside and, while I'm not really troubled by the "am I a lurker thing" anymore, wouldn't mind an explanation for that either if he has one.

[Nachomamma8]

his reason for Rautherdir and I being scum together is LQs point from earlier in the game, post 846 he says Rautherdir may be scum - then moments later in 900 you say he is confirmed town.

This is a good catch - Dominator, what between 846 and 900 made you confident that Rautherdir was even claiming PR?

[Nachomamma8]

-But you're not taking the present into account though. You are holding onto a vote from 25 pages ago and acting like nothing said in there matters

Just because I didn't unvote you the second you showed up in thread doesn't mean that I'm not taking into account new information; before, my case on you was just that I thought you attempting to take credit for getting the game started and doing nothing else was abnormal. Now, I'm voting you I think that your focus continues to be strange - I don't think that your commentary on my 293 has anything to do with my alignment and I think that you're aware of that. I think that your stances are insanely shallow to the point where I don't really buy them; your accusation in 811 is a stretch (to put it in the kindest terms), your "Hans/Rauth are scum-scum if one flips" is silly when it's based on nothing but an early townread, and your approach to me (that I am discrediting you and me saying that Conner's top suspect was you when really you were his #2 suspect is part of some master plan to get you mislynched) so far doesn't seem genuine to me.

You're not wrong that I'm tunneling and you're not wrong that I'm trying to convince others to vote you, but I fail to see why doing either of those things is scummy as opposed to just playing the game.

[Nachomamma8]

Ok, so I'm going to guess either Nacho or TheDom are mafia, with a high likelihood that LQ is scum if TheDom is.

@TheDom, you haven't really addressed this: What was the purpose of your extended lurking?

I don't really see LQ/Dom as possible scum partners; why do you?

Why do you think that I could be scum over Dom? Why am I scum if he's town?

[Nachomamma8]

Well, not only did LQ not scum read TheDom, he town read him. And then after TheDom makes a few cathup posts he comes in bragging about how right he was with almost no proof.

Do you think that LQ believes that he can stop Dom's lynch by townreading him with no proof?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't see you pushing so hard on TheDom as a lurker if he was your scum partner.

Why am I scum if TheDom is town?

[Nachomamma8]

Is TheDom's lynch inevitable?

No, but the chances that he gets lynched in the near future seem pretty high - do you disagree?
If you were Dom's scum partner, would you bet that he lived or that he died?

[Nachomamma8]

What about my approach to Dom has been unreasonable?

[Nachomamma8]

Well, actually, let me rephrase that.

To the best of my knowledge, you agree with the reasons why I find Dom scummy. There has not been something that I've pointed out that seems off-base or ridiculous.
On the other hand, you find LQ's read on Dom to be weird enough to the point where you don't understand it.

However, if Dom flips town, you think that the approach you understand is scummy as opposed to the one you think is nonsense.
That's what I want to understand.

[Nachomamma8]

And whether I'm tunneling or not depends on your definition of tunneling.

My definition of tunneling is considering one person as scum far and above anyone else and not really pushing any other possibilities. This is what I'm doing, but I don't think it's anywhere close to unjustified.

Another definition of tunneling is pushing someone to an extent that is unreasonable or over the top; I don't think I've been doing that or anything close to that.

[Nachomamma8]

For us new players what is Thor's definition?

Why are you commenting on this as opposed to 953?

[Nachomamma8]

Interesting, so Thor665 has a different definition of tunneling than NachoMamma8 does.

Hmm.. Interesting indeed.

P-Edit: I take it you know Thor's position, but didn't comment on that definition.

This is really quite interesting stuff here.

I didn't remember it off-hand, but our definitions are not that far apart, I just consider more things tunneling than he does.

[Nachomamma8]

If you're so sure TheDom is scum then why are you preparing for if it isn't.

I'm not sure how you got that I was preparing for a town flip, but I'm not 100% sure that Dom will flip scum. I think he will, sure, and I feel confident he will, but that's much different than knowing that he will.

If you're asking me why I'm pursuing this line of reasoning, I thought your thought process was weird and I wanted to see you back it up. I can see you with a Dom partner trying to artificially add depth to your analysis and I can see you without a Dom partner trying to leverage his case against me, so I thought it was worthy of questioning.

[Nachomamma8]

All your posts have be easy to make. Answer why that is and Maybe I will ISO you.

I don't really think this is accurate.

[Nachomamma8]

Question is really how reliable is your town read on Rautherdir. @Nachomamma, have you considered what Dominator says in 883 that adds plausibility that Rautherdir's PR claim was in fact a fakeclaim.

I've considered it, but I'm aware of those site metas already. Doesn't necessarily make sense in this context when he knows that it isn't role madness this game.

[Nachomamma8]

Apologies for being gone still; this week is looking busy and the weekend is also looking busy but other things unfortunately take precedence for the moment; I'll get back into gear as soon as I get used to my schedule yet again (and catch up on some of the crap I need to get done).

[Nachomamma8]

lq picking up votes at this point is silly and surprising.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho? You've been posting in other games Nacho, why not this one?

This isn't a question I can answer.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho? You've been posting in other games Nacho, why not this one?

This isn't a question I can answer.

Why not?

It's a question about ongoing games. We can't talk about ongoing games.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho? You've been posting in other games Nacho, why not this one?

This isn't a question I can answer.

Why not?

It's a question about ongoing games. We can't talk about ongoing games.

Let me ask this a different way then. What has prevented you from posting in this thread?

Lack of time.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Grendel

I have catching up to do, but am not sure when it will be done. I don't mind Grendel's original reads, but the shift as pointed out doesn't really make sense.

[Nachomamma8]

He was only at page 25 when he made that post, which included his read on you. He updated his reads after a) reading more of the thread, and b) finding out about my claim. It's perfectly acceptable in my view to change your reads that much after reviewing that much content.

Do you know what changed his read?

[Nachomamma8]

Connor, why do you think Toblerone is scum?

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Grendel

I have catching up to do, but am not sure when it will be done. I don't mind Grendel's original reads, but the shift as pointed out doesn't really make sense.

That's a lovely surface level observation you have made there.

So you can't honestly think of any town motivation to generating a counter wagon on a null-scum read?

Or is it the rapid drop of Toblerone in my reads?

It's the rapid drop, hence why I said that the shift in your reads didn't make sense.

[Nachomamma8]

One thing that is bugging me is that I'm surprised to see a Scum!ConnerJC join the Tableone wagon on the same page as Nacho was giving me flack for starting it.

I could be underestimating the level of guts JC has. Or maybe he was feeling the pressure?

I don't think it takes guts to join something that I'm currently dismissing.

[Nachomamma8]

If that's the case get over here and lynch me.

There is no reason for a lynch to happen yet.

[Nachomamma8]

Trust me, if you flip town and there's no one better (i.e. no quickhammerer to lynch), I will get Toblerone lynched.

So far, the reason I've seen expressed is that "he quickhammered". Do you have more reason to suspect Toblerone, or does that about sum it up?

[Nachomamma8]

It been a consistent theme of Toblerone's to down play his experience in mafia.

Toblerone has expressed several times that he seems out of his depth. This seems perfectly natural for a new player to me, especially when the game was extraordinarily dense and moving at a pretty good clip; I also felt out of my depth plenty, and I've been playing for a fair chunk of time. You're starting out with the assumption that he's scum and moving from there; that isn't the proper approach.

[Nachomamma8]

For instance, if he had never played in a scum game with day talk then how did he know that some scum get day talk? If he has a little experience playing mafia as he says he has then wouldn't he have assumed that scum only have night talk?

Your assumption that all new players assume night talk by default doesn't make sense. Him being new and assuming anything is strange but by no means unheard of, but him being new means that he's unaware of the default, which is the only reason he would assume night chat in the first place.

[Nachomamma8]

Him knowing the existence of both implies to me that he has at the least read up on mafia theory, and different types of set ups.

Forgive me - when did he talk about knowing the existence of both?

[Nachomamma8]

Like, he is making very liberal use of his "I'm new" card. It reminds me a whole lot of Artic mafia

This seems to be a surface level observation to me.

In Arctic Mafia, very early on, boring said that she didn't know she could PM the moderator. She also made posts such as "there are 7 town and 2 scum, right? so how are we supposed to catch scum?". I can dive and dig into the specifics that I can't remember quote yet if it's really crucial (I don't have much time and doing that in mobile is inconvenient), but you seem to be taking your experience there to make the argument that people saying they are new is scummy and I think that's going waaay to far.

[Nachomamma8]

And- Unless I missed something in my initial read through, it appears to me that Toblerome went through the whole experience unscathed. Which points to him being scum.

Two problems.
1) Toblerone went from a universal townread to a top candidate for lynch overnight. This is due to the quickhammer. The argument that he escaped unscathed doesn't make sense.
2) Your argument that "he wasn't suspected for it and therefore the action is scummy" doesn't resonate much with me. You can say that it would be an easy thing for scum to attack, but it is an easy thing for scum to attack because it's an easy thing for town to attack and that means that the presence/absence of suspicion is meaningless.

[Nachomamma8]

There is statistically a 1 in third chance of hitting scum with a rando lynch between Nacho, ConnorJC, and Tobleone. I'm detracting Nacho from the equation b/c his worth as town out weighs the risk of him being scum today imo. So that narrows it down to ConnorJC, and Tobleone.

Every townie has a pool of 5 players they are looking at (assuming Rauth is town, which I think is a pretty fair assumption). This gives them a 40% chance for a scum lynch regardless of where they are looking.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Secret Agent Jin

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Secret Agent Jin

While an eloquent lead up to the vote, this is still naked.

It's who I feel is the likeliest scum at the moment; there is no particular reasoning attached.

[Nachomamma8]

How many times do I have to ask you why you're scumreading Toblerone before you answer me?

[Nachomamma8]

Hey, I know for some reason everyone wants to get a lynch in right this second, but it's okay to wait.

[Nachomamma8]

Connor, why are you townreading Secret Agent Jin?

[Nachomamma8]

I dont think this back and forth between Tob and JC is TvT. There has to be a scummy player between them, i think the conversation would have resulted in agreeing to disagree by now if it was TvT.

The argument here is that because they are still arguing, they both can't be town.

Now, I understand that not everyone here has boatloads of experience, but I think it's a pretty ridiculous assertion that two townies never argue a bunch, and using that in order to provide a "there's for sure one scum between Connor/Toblerone" makes it look like he's trying to find a way to lynch both of them in succession.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm actually considering voting Nacho at this point. I'm still getting second thoughts about Connor, the only reason my vote stands is because I'm just stubborn and don't see enough reason to vote Toblerone. Nacho, you really need to contribute more, and from what I've read in other games you haven't been making comments that fit in with being an IC. I can see you asking questions to stir conversation, but it isn't a style I think town would employ.

I haven't been making comments that it in with being an IC?
What do you mean by that?

I agree that my contributions has been lower than usual, but the implication that I haven't contributed enough (period) is a bit short sighted.

[Nachomamma8]

Before night 1 Connor read LQ as town in 1025, his quick change to reading as scum in 1118 is suspect.

This is a shallow reason for suspicion; people often switch their reads rapidly (look at LQ's reads on me throughout the game).

Toblerone quick hammered Dom, who I was reading as town-null at that point. Needless to say, both of you were also on the Dominator lynch. I'm not voting yet, but right now I suspect ConnorJC more than Toblerone. I'll need to ISO both of you before I come to a solid conclusion.

I wasn't townreading Dom when he was hammered. Why is being on the Dominator lynch a scumtell? Do you think that there wasn't a valid reason to vote him?

In general, these reasons are weak, but at least they are independent reasons for finding them scummy individually. What Secret Agent Jin did was attempt to call the two players a SvT pair for absolutely no reason at all which has patently obvious scum motivation if both are town, which is something I believe to be true (mislynching one justifies a vote on the next).

[Nachomamma8]

I'm actually considering voting Nacho at this point. I'm still getting second thoughts about Connor, the only reason my vote stands is because I'm just stubborn and don't see enough reason to vote Toblerone. Nacho, you really need to contribute more, and from what I've read in other games you haven't been making comments that fit in with being an IC. I can see you asking questions to stir conversation, but it isn't a style I think town would employ.

Effort is almost never indicative of alignment.

That depends on a case by case basis.
In this particular case, I was almost replaced and had a pretty decent level of activity before the holidays; I'd say that should make it pretty obvious that my low activity currently isn't indicative of alignment.

[Nachomamma8]

D1 quickhammer

This isn't indicative of a scum player, especially Day 1. While there is motivation to end a day early as scum, the drawback of quickhammers as scum is the attention that it brings to people who do it, which means that scum don't actually quickhammer in newbie games a whole lot. In toblerone's position, there wasn't really a reason to quickhammer there as scum; he was universally townread, he wasn't having trouble forming suspicion on people, and it's not likely he would feel obligated to give up a fairly solid position to protect a scumbuddy in that situation (since Dom was in more trouble than anyone else at the time).

I think LQ is scum, and LQ starts the day trying to get Tobler onto a town block

There seems to be decent motivation for LQ to get Tobler onto a town block in an LQ!scum, Tobler!town scenario; LQ gets Tobler in a "townblock", LQ has leverage to manipulate his vote. I'm not particularly interested in parts of your case that are LQ-based until LQ!scum is proven.

His interactions with LQ (Who remember, I think is scum) seem very sueprficial, almost like he's trying to avoid any real content between him and LQ
When does he bother to check how many votes someone has? That's right, LQ. He puts L-1 in huge red text on the vote.

The LQ interactions point I'm not particularly interested in, but the point that he usually checks for votes interests me.

I'm bored of this game tbh. Ill catch up later

Seriously poor play. Let's give ourselves all a Christmas present and get rid of him

VOTE: TheDominator37

Ok firstly my apologies for lynching Dominator. I was feeling rough (still am) and logged on and saw his comment and was pissed off with him so I voted him. I did not even think to check the votecount and didn't realise I had lynched him until I got the PM to say N1 had started and I checked the thread again. Having said that I doubt he would have responded as he didn't respond to LQs vote that put him on L-1 I think

I think it's sort of weird that he said "let's get rid of him" and didn't know that he was hammering, but that could just be coincidence.
I buy his sick explanation as why he missed the votecount at the top of the page.
So while it doesn't change my overall read on him, I buy it as a valid point.

His "townslip" seems very fake.

I disagree with this point wholeheartedly, but can't expand on why I disagree with you unless you expand on your reasoning here.

That "OMGUS" vote I don't really feel too strongly one way or another; it certainly isn't a vote that I disagree with.

[Nachomamma8]

I'll also note that both Grendel and Secret Agent Jin have made efforts to narrow the lynch pool today to {Toblerone, ConnorJC}. Secret Agent Jin said that they were a SvT pair because they were still arguing (this is an absolutely ridiculous argument that still hasn't been addressed to the best of my knowledge), while Grendel urged everyone to narrow their lynch pool to {Toblerone, ConnorJC} for reasons that I don't yet fully understand.

[Nachomamma8]

Ah, right. Bullshit statistics.

[Nachomamma8]

It just feels kind of like you are lurking.

What do you think of Grendel-Secret Agent Jin?

[Nachomamma8]

I did say it was likely SvT due to both of them pushing reasoning of the other being scum. In my previous game experience wagons either get hammered or die, i havent seen one that goes on for a buttload of pages, that said to me that one had to be scum to just keep pushing hard for a very long time.

Are you putting forth the idea that if one is hammered and flips town that there is a possibility that the other is town despite how hard they both fought each other?

It's obvious that there's the possibility both are town.

[Nachomamma8]

I did say it was likely SvT due to both of them pushing reasoning of the other being scum. In my previous game experience wagons either get hammered or die, i havent seen one that goes on for a buttload of pages, that said to me that one had to be scum to just keep pushing hard for a very long time.

Are you putting forth the idea that if one is hammered and flips town that there is a possibility that the other is town despite how hard they both fought each other?

It's obvious that there's the possibility both are town.

And there's really no way in hell that I'm buying that you've never seen two townies argue before.

[Nachomamma8]

You know what I'm thinking? I haven't seen a hammer on either Connor or Toblerone. Which perplexes me.

You expected two quickhammers in a row?

[Nachomamma8]

I had Lovesick as townish read, and a null read on FancyPants. I don't really have enough information to give a read on SAJ, and Grendel retains the null read. So, possibly, just not likely in my eyes.

I don't understand why you'd be happy ending today with such incomplete reads on two slots. Since when is 3 weeks and 62 pages not enough to form complete reads on two slots?

[Nachomamma8]

I had Lovesick as townish read, and a null read on FancyPants. I don't really have enough information to give a read on SAJ, and Grendel retains the null read. So, possibly, just not likely in my eyes.

I don't understand why you'd be happy ending today with such incomplete reads on two slots. Since when is 3 weeks and 62 pages not enough to form complete reads on two slots?

Fancypants+Grendel: 74 posts
Lovesick+SAJ: 86 posts

Quite a few of them had problems with lurking, and I'm trying not to factor lurking into my reads as much right now.

Both of those numbers are a significant enough body of work to have a read.

[Nachomamma8]

I'll admit to not being super confident of my Scum reads at this point in the game. It could be my experience showing up in inappropriate ways, but I can see everyone as Scum in one way or another so far in this game. That is why I am trying to Town hunt more than Scum hunt.

Rauth's current reads on SAJ and Grendel are "townish and null". That's it. If you have reads that look like that, you need to fix it.
There's a very big difference between analyzing a player and not being sure and not analyzing a player.

[Nachomamma8]

I have seen two townies argue before. What i havent seen were two townies, both the leading wagons, push each other as CWs for more than a few pages. The wagons usually either diffuse and breakdown or one is read more scummy than the other and is mislynched. There has to be a reason a hammer from scum hasnt happened yet. If they were both townies, scum would have hammered one of them.

I have a few problems with this.
1) I have seen townies have protracted arguments a large number of times. I'm sure you've seen townies have protracted arguments before. Your original argument was this:

There has to be a scummy player between them, i think the conversation would have resulted in agreeing to disagree by now if it was TvT.

You saying "two townies both the leading wagons push each other as CWs for more than a few pages" is not your original argument.

2) How many times have you seen two wagons remain the leading wagons and push each other as CWs for more than a few pages? Can you link me a couple instances of this? I'd wager from glancing through your completed games that you haven't seen it too many times, if at all, so talking about their wagon behavior with such a strong expectation behind it doesn't really seem right to me.

I think that you and Grendel saw ConnorJC and Toblerone going at it really, really hard and I think you got overconfident and overextended yourselves in pursuit of that two lynch path to victory.

3) Yesterday, toberone was universally townread. He quickhammered. Today, he is a Top 2 suspect. It makes sense to me that scum would be cautious about quickhammering so their plans to get laid to waste because they're getting shit for quickhammering. Townies being cautious also makes sense when I'm continually telling people to slow down and when there are two new replacements today. I hate this argument double because Rauthedir brought it up earlier; you're riding his coattails with an argument that you didn't think of before.

[Nachomamma8]

And people saying that one of Toblerone/Connor should have been lynched if they are both town are ignoring the Jin attempt to get them lynched.

[Nachomamma8]

Oh, no, please don't mislynch someone besides me. If we do that town likely loses tomorrow.
pedit: @Nacho, notice how Jin

didn't

hammer me?

If we mislynch two people, we lose.
How is mislynching you better than mislynching someone else?

He didn't hammer you, but he tried. Sometimes people try to mislynch and fail and picking up on those attempts is the difference between a scum lynch and a town lynch.

[Nachomamma8]

If you mislynch someone else we just go back to the me vs toblerone thing tomorrow. In that scenario all of town needs to agree on a lynch, and they have to be right. Good luck with that.

If we mislynch one of you then there will be an unnecessary weight on the other tomorrow, which means scum get a win they don't really deserve if both of you are town.

[Nachomamma8]

Jin is just _eager_ to end the day, and hasn't even produced a decent set of reads, or really interacted with anybody!

Ugh.

JConners better flip scum.

Easily explainable hammer?
I don't think so.

[Nachomamma8]

(for context, that post came in between Jin's intent and his unvote later)

[Nachomamma8]

If you mislynch someone else we just go back to the me vs toblerone thing tomorrow. In that scenario all of town needs to agree on a lynch, and they have to be right. Good luck with that.

If we mislynch one of you then there will be an unnecessary weight on the other tomorrow, which means scum get a win they don't really deserve if both of you are town.

Ick... AtE to the extreme. I am starting to see you agreeing with Connor way too much.

You'll see what you want to see, as you have all game.
How was what I said unreasonable in any way whatsoever? Do you think that FP and Lovesick (who replaced out) or Grendel and SAJ (who started playing this Day) deserve the win more than the town as a whole? How exactly am I agreeing with Connor way too much when you're quoting me disagreeing with him?

[Nachomamma8]

I can't get away from his unvote and "intent to hammer Connor" then revote of me when Connor had actually added nothing new

It's scummy independently; I'm not sure why you think that it reflects badly on Connor.

[Nachomamma8]

Connor, could you respond to my rebuttal of your Toblerone case?

[Nachomamma8]

You are saying that Connor and Tobler are both Town here. You haven't even entertained the idea that Connor could be Scum since I think within the first 48 hours of the game. Good way to distance early and then ride the Town read all game. And that is why you are so hard to read... because no matter what you do it can be interpreted as either Town or Scum saying what you are saying.

I had Connor suspicions for a pretty large chunk of yesterday; he was my second suspect after Dominator, so you saying that I distanced early and then rode the town read the entire game is laughable.

[Nachomamma8]

Also, I am noting the "we" part of that statement. I find it questionable. I would have said "if Town..."

I am part of the town. If you have a problem with me saying as much, I suggest you refine your approach.

[Nachomamma8]

At the level you play at, whether what you say is reasonable should not even be a question. I give you enough credit to be able to say reasonable things regardless of your alignment. I can't judge what you say at face value - there is little reason to underestimate your play. Looking at motivation has always been part of my game and I think that neglecting that is a grave mistake. You know as well as I do, just because someone says something reasonable or not does not mean they are Town or not. Some people are just simply more reasonable with what they say, some people less. You can't read people simply based on what someone says, you have to look at why they say what they say.

Your theory is fine. Your execution is not.
I'm challenging you to look at my motivations, but instead you're claiming that I'm saying and doing things that I haven't done - that shows that you're not reading my posts and that you're drawing conclusions based on what you want to see instead of what's actually there. That is paranoia. If you want to read me as a player, step one is understanding my plays, not throwing out random bits here and there; I for understand your approach if I wasn't being transparent but I am.

[Nachomamma8]

That is the difference with Connor - he will not back down despite me showing his arguments have little basis. So he could be townie tunneling. Or he could be scum afraid to back down now as he has pushed it so hard (although I have seen some evidence of him backing down a bit overnight - the "maybe there is a world where you are town" comment comes to mind)

Connor's stubbornness is what feels town to me. As scum in his position, I'm not quite sure he wants the spotlight to this extent. When his head was on the line and it looked like he was probably getting lynched, he kept calling for your head and kept pushing the case on you. That's a townier mindset than not versus Grendel who pushed a questionable case and then backed off quickly (implying he never believed it in the first place).

[Nachomamma8]

Would you mind pointing out those instances with your posts where you found Connor suspicious?

Read my end of day posts yesterday and refresh your memory; typically, I'd point it out no problem but this isn't the first time you've attacked me for reasons that were objectively wrong.

[Nachomamma8]

Word choice can be used to read people, unless you disagree? In which case I will disagree with you.

Word choice has far more to do with style than alignment; what you're attacking on is semantics and no, I certainly don't agree with that.

[Nachomamma8]

You haven't even entertained the idea that Connor could be Scum since I think within the first 48 hours of the game. Good way to distance early and then ride the Town read all game.

This is the accusation I was referring to.

[Nachomamma8]

We'll have to agree to disagree here then. It looks to me like Tobler completely got away with that hammer, at this point there's almost no chance he's going to be lynched.

If I quote for you a few instances where town quickhammered, would you feel less strong about this point in general or would I be wasting my time when trudging up those links?

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho,

I hope you have some constructive things you can tell me how I can improve my game after this is over, because so far its pretty much just been criticism.

The intention behind my approach was meant to be constructive criticism, regardless of alignment. I respect you as a player and it was never my intention to put you down in any way.

[Nachomamma8]

Grendel-Nacho is TvT.
@LQ why would I underplay as scum?

You say that we're TvT because that's what fits your current view of the gamestate. You're not saying that we are TvT because you are analyzing our argument.

[Nachomamma8]

We'll have to agree to disagree here then. It looks to me like Tobler completely got away with that hammer, at this point there's almost no chance he's going to be lynched.

If I quote for you a few instances where town quickhammered, would you feel less strong about this point in general or would I be wasting my time when trudging up those links?

Why would town ever quickhammer? You can just explain, no need for past games (Especially non-newbie ones).

Town quickhammer accidentally, town quickhammer because they are impatient, town quickhammer because they don't know more discussion is needed, town quickhammer because they don't know convention, town quickhammer because they are frustrated. I'm not referring to non-newbie game quickhammer with the links.

[Nachomamma8]

We're never proving LQ!scum until he's lynched (ie never). In my opinion LQ as scum is likely to put his scumbuddy in the block - and the other members he proposed were himself and me.
If Tobler is town LQ isn't going to be able to get leverage over his vote, as Tobler has slammed LQ's style all game.

We are never able to prove LQ as scum. We will generally not be able to prove anyone as scum with any reasonable confidence; as a result, using one fragile thread to support another is typically bad practice.

[Nachomamma8]

I just don't see the same player putting up the defense he did with my wagon on him and also quickhammering+townslipping.

What do you mean by this?

[Nachomamma8]

If Tobler is town LQ isn't going to be able to get leverage over his vote, as Tobler has slammed LQ's style all game.

I agree that he is an odd target for a buddy but I don't think LQ would be delusional enough to think that saying his partner was in a town block would suddenly color him magical town.

[Nachomamma8]

Grendel, do me a favor and reiterate the bad and scummy things Connor has done; I don't want you to requote your old case; I'd like you to give me the crux of your case against him, what feels the strongest about it to you.

[Nachomamma8]

He goes to defend the vote saying he thinks TheDom would've have responded. That's an unnecessary scum reaction.

It's a human reaction. When we mess up, we rationalize why our mess up wasn't as bad as it could have been.

[Nachomamma8]

I doubt LQ is getting lynched. If he's scum all he needs to do is convince town not to lynch his buddy.

If he's scum all he has to do is live until the end; his partner surviving is not a necessity.

[Nachomamma8]

Fair enough, but convincing town not to lynch his buddy is a much safer strategy, as if his buddy was lynched LQ ends up in 3-way LyLo with Rautherdir, and has a much greater chance to lose.

He can set up a 4 player MyLo without Rauth just fine; defending his partner is an unnecessary risk since, at this point, poor partner interactions is what would lose him the game at this point.

[Nachomamma8]

This is really the only place I see close to EOD where you are considering what Connor has done as suspicious, however, it has the condition that Dom is lynched. Also, you are only talking about past possibilities and not your current judgement on the Connor slot.

Halfway through the day, I dropped a reads list which has Dom on the bottom and Connor-FP as second tier. I never ended up townreading Connor until today, he remained a null read during Day 1 until he made the odd "Nacho or Dom" is scum post (he'd been pushing Dom plenty and had no real reason to push me, so the logic didn't follow), at which point he slid into a scumread. My read on him there didn't require a Dom lynch; on the contrary, it was my explanation of how I thought the action was scummy independent of Dom's alignment.

[Nachomamma8]

Thank you for readingy posts.

[Nachomamma8]

Fair enough, but convincing town not to lynch his buddy is a much safer strategy, as if his buddy was lynched LQ ends up in 3-way LyLo with Rautherdir, and has a much greater chance to lose.

He can set up a 4 player MyLo without Rauth just fine; defending his partner is an unnecessary risk since, at this point, poor partner interactions is what would lose him the game at this point.

Why would town lynch in a MyLo? Isn't it better play to let scum kill so odds of lynching scum are higher?

Then I guess he wouldn't be worried about a 3 player LyLo with Rauthedir!

[Nachomamma8]

No lynching in MyLo is a good way to check certain assumptions that you're making (is that universal townread really town?) and is useful for limiting the field in a game where there isn't a universal townread. Sometimes you don't want to let the voice be removed, and sometimes town has a better chance of winning in MyLo since it's harder for scum to quickhammer in MyLo. It depends on the game; when I'm scum in a good position, I want MyLo to minimize risk. When I'm scum in an iffier position, I want LyLo to maximize potential for one wrong move.

[Nachomamma8]

Fair enough, but convincing town not to lynch his buddy is a much safer strategy, as if his buddy was lynched LQ ends up in 3-way LyLo with Rautherdir, and has a much greater chance to lose.

He can set up a 4 player MyLo without Rauth just fine; defending his partner is an unnecessary risk since, at this point, poor partner interactions is what would lose him the game at this point.

Why would town lynch in a MyLo? Isn't it better play to let scum kill so odds of lynching scum are higher?

Then I guess he wouldn't be worried about a 3 player LyLo with Rauthedir!

Well, I'm kinda hoping that Rautherdir would see it if LQ made it to a 3-way LyLo. But honestly you might be right.

Does your LQ read remain static?

[Nachomamma8]

He's played scum on this site before. That town tell is the easiest thing in the world to fake as well.
Also, I went over to where he said he's played before, and I don't see any day communication for scum.

It's easy to fake, I don't disagree with you there.
Could you link to where you figured out there wasn't day communication over there?

[Nachomamma8]

Not defending his vote combined with OMGUS makes it very suspicious.

Don't understand why not defending his vote right there was suspicious; I certainly didn't defend my Grendel vote (or my Secret Agent Jin vote) when I first made them and I didn't think you took issue with them; was I mistaken?

[Nachomamma8]

I swear that most of Tobler's reads are based on whether the person is town or scum reading him.

You're right that the trend exists, but both of your scumreads are people who are scumreading you too and the townread on me is in part because I'm townreading you.

[Nachomamma8]

Where did I say I thought LQ is town because he defended me? Read the underlined and bolded bit again

The piece of my Connor's criticism that's made sense was that you hadn't really given reason for LQ to be town; you said it wasn't because he was townreading him, but you didn't say what it actually was.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm clearly here and posting; why do you think that I'm going to ignore your response?

[Nachomamma8]

If there is something that I have taken away from Connor this game, it is that it would not be good to underestimate his play.

It's possible that I'm underestimating his town game or overestimating his scum game, sure. It's hard to get a good baseline on a player's skills based on one game.

However, my opinion of him is that if he is scum, he is playing an absolutely phenomenal game. He's created a presence that's fairly impressive for a newbie; in his response to me initially, he generated paranoia surrounding Toblerone fairly quickly and did so before there was any significant suspicion surrounding him, and his conviction and the way he deals with the game when he approaches death is near-flawless. The only piece I'd criticize from him this game is scum is the strength of his reasoning; but how can I do that when I don't know how he scumhunts as town? It's also hard to criticize a case that comes from logical (shallow, but logical) roots, and its hard to criticize him too heavily when he's showing pretty impressive insight in a couple of his points (his reasoning for finding tobler's quickhammer meh, the criticism of reads); sure, it's a style that requires throwing everything and the kitchen sink at players in order to catch on a gem every once in a while but the number of scum players who can keep up that energy and conviction are few and far between. His play is less exceptional as town; still good, but some of the weaknesses are a bit more obvious and reasonable.

I feel similarly about your play; either I'm playing with a future Don Corelone, or I'm playing with town.

At the end of the day, I find it easier to trust in the simpler explanation and say that I'm probably just playing with two normal townies and this game isn't a ridiculously exceptional one; it's certainly possible I'm reading too much into things and seeing things that aren't there or maybe someone else really is that good, but I don't think that's the case.

[Nachomamma8]

The reason you don't give my reads much credit is because I'm scum reading you and your partner.

I don't disagree with LQ's perceptions of your reads as a whole. Am I also disagreeing because you're scumreading me and my partner?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm clearly here and posting; why do you think that I'm going to ignore your response?

Hey, Jin. This was directed towards you.

[Nachomamma8]

Actually this isnt even a contradiction. It is likely one of them will flip scum because in the games i have played a TvT wagon is usually spotted before long and diffused and if it isnt then a lynch is reached due to scum helping push one wagon over the other. In the instance of Connor versus Tob, scum would be pushing for the town wagon over their scum buddy but no one but Connor and Tob is pushing the wagons hard. So, either this town is so split and divided that we cant bring ourselves to unvote the wagons and scum is having a field day letting us fight ourselves or scum doesnt want to push too hard because their partner is L-1 or L-2 and a wrong push could result in a scum lynch.

I think I asked you to show me what you're talking about with your wagon interactions, and if I didn't, consider this me asking now - I'll be able to understand your argument more when I have a more concrete example to back it up.

You seem to be claiming that town can sense when two townies are wagoning but they can't figure which one is town when one scum and one town is wagoned; I don't think that such a superpower exists, and I find your assertion that it does to be absolutely ridiculous.

Either town is struggling finding scum, or they aren't - this is the case 100% of the time and you haven't given for a reason to why you think the latter over the former other than the TvT finding superpower that towns apparently possess.

[Nachomamma8]

He's played scum on this site before. That town tell is the easiest thing in the world to fake as well.
Also, I went over to where he said he's played before, and I don't see any day communication for scum.

It's easy to fake, I don't disagree with you there.
Could you link to where you figured out there wasn't day communication over there?

Fair warning: mafia is a very unorganized side thing for them, so it is possible some of their games have day communication; however all the ones where I could figure out it was night only.

"At night" in example scum role PM: https://www.gpro.net/gb/forum/ViewTopic ... ost4002680
Another game's QTs: https://www.gpro.net/gb/forum/ViewTopic ... ost4008477
Scum QT from above mentions night only at beginning: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/wxYRcwR ... 6.1#QTmsg1

Other games I looked at couldn't tell.

pedit: Just saw a bunch of posts come in, addressing them separately if I have anything to say

Spicy. Toblerone, mind linking the games that you played over there?

[Nachomamma8]

That is the point, i have been saying that i havent seen this type of wagon before. Whenever TvT CWs happen they are shut down or lynched quickly. So basically you are saying "You dont have a lot of experience with wagons so just shut up and let other people take care if it".

Where did I come close to telling you to shut up and let other people take care of it?

My problem with your approach to the wagons is that you've never seen a wagon like this, TvT or SvT. This is completely uncharted territory for you, yes? Why do you think that this is SvT as opposed to a more intense TvT than you're used to? You've seen SvT wagons before, were they this intense?

[Nachomamma8]

As for your "why wouldn't I just hammer?" argument, already addressed it once before:

Jin is just _eager_ to end the day, and hasn't even produced a decent set of reads, or really interacted with anybody!

Ugh.

JConners better flip scum.

Easily explainable hammer?
I don't think so.

[Nachomamma8]

I have limited access for today; I'll be around a tiny little bit today and I'll be around as much as possible tomorrow when I'm on my way home.

[Nachomamma8]

When I get back from work today my focus will be 100% on SAJ and Grendel. I would rather SAJ not be brought to L-1 to avoid quickhammer but if you are not 100% sure you'll be around before deadline then I'd rather you vote and Saj quickhammer instead of risking not being able to vote.