Newbie 1764: Wind Game Over

[nydushermain]

Hey, I'm from video mafia and have played a very little bit of forum mafia on Teamliquid. So yeah, I'm not a complete amateur but I guess we'll see how this goes.

I currently think that gamma emerald and accountant are lightly townie. No scum reads at the moment.

Gamma Emerald: Very weak fluffy read. I just personally feel like if I were scum, I would be reluctant to be the first poster of the game... especially with a vote. Even if it's "RVS"

Accountant: I liked that our IC decided that reads were more important to give out than the general IC post that I've seen in other threads. Made it feel like accountant really felt the need to say something that they couldn't ignore. I feel like an IC post is more likely to be townread (even though this isn't something that should be read for at all) just because it makes people feel comfortable with the IC but to post a scumread before trying to get on peoples' good side seems like town.

[nydushermain]

I think mewtaph is lightly townie too after a reread. I think that the way he addressed charloux sounded like he was potentially pushing scum on char, but wasn't really too accusatory and instead, felt more inquisitive. I also feel like I threw in random vocabulary words that could potentially be synonyms for the words that I meant in the last sentence but was too lazy to really check the precise definition.

[nydushermain]

@accountant: mostly excitement. I haven't been waiting for this game for a while but it felt like eternity. Then I read that I got replaced into this game which was sick

[nydushermain]

I'll post more later when I have a bit more time but something that sticks out the most to me is how passive accountant is being. Accountant has the highest activity it seems and is asking a lot of questions but none of the questions don't really seem to me like someone scum hunting. It gives off a "I'll just ask these questions for the sake of asking them" vibe. I feel like a town that found so many odd things (or at least I imagine accountant's thought process is "oh that seems odd"), they would've at least made a decent set of reads. It's like an offhand attempt to bury people. Really odd to me.

I also didn't like accountant's post #37.

@Van: Why are wagons scummy? Since Town cannot kill at night, we can only hunt down and kill mafia members by wagoning and lynching them. Furthermore, one of the best ways to hunt mafia is to exert pressure on them. In a calm environment, mafia can blend in easily, but in an environment where there are lots of threats and pressure, mafia are more likely to slip up and make a mistake. In this case, wagons are a useful tool to generate this pressure.

I think wagons are way more useful than they are harmful. So how can they be scummy?

The way acc says "Since town cannot kill at night,

we

..." makes it seems like acc is trying to blend into town by saying "hey guys

we

are town." Normally, I read this as not alignment indicative but it's some sort of mental inconsistency that bothers me. When you're in this type of mindset when you're posting, I feel like you stick with it and say "okay, since

I

am town, when I say town, I say

we

and when I say mafia, I say

they

" but acc says mafia four times consecutively (as in without referring to another person again), and twice acc could've said "they" as a replacement for "mafia."


VOTE: Accountant

[nydushermain]

I'll post more later when I have a bit more time but something that sticks out the most to me is how passive accountant is being. Accountant has the highest activity it seems and is asking a lot of questions but none of the questions don't really seem to me like someone scum hunting. It gives off a "I'll just ask these questions for the sake of asking them" vibe. I feel like a town that found so many odd things (or at least I imagine accountant's thought process is "oh that seems odd"), they would've at least made a decent set of reads. It's like an offhand attempt to bury people. Really odd to me.

You are correct that I'm asking question without following them up with strong reads. Let me clearly explain why.

Firstly, a lot of these questions are asked not because I want to know the answer, but because I wish to provoke thought about the way the game works in the minds of the people I'm asking the question to. For example, if I ask a question like "given that wagons create pressure and pressure helps to catch scum, don't you think that wagons are a good thing?", that is an attempt to make someone think. It's not because I want to actually know the answer.

Secondly, a lot of these questions are theory related. Because the theory of mafia is consistent across all games, everything to do with discussion of theory is completely null in my mind. A player with a question about theory(or a wrong conception of mafia theory) is just as likely to be town as scum. Therefore it's impossible to read a player based on theory discussions. Given that the past few pages have been mostly me talking about theory so that everyone's on the same page when we start scumhunting, it's definitely impossible for me to come up with strong reads based on that.

Thirdly, a lot of what I am doing right now is trying to get into people's mindset. Ramcius is paranoid. Gamma is enthusiastic. Mewtaph is trying to game-solve. Some of these things are indicative of certain alignments. Some are not, but they help me understand where a player is coming from so it's easier to determine their alignment in the following posts. Scumhunting is not about blindly applying a set of scum tells to a game. Rather, it's about truly understanding players, taking their posts in the context of that understanding and then determining if that context and that kind of posts stems from the mindset of someone who is pushing a scum agenda or a townie who is trying to gamesolve. For this reason, nothing pops up to me as immediately strongly indicative of town or scum(with the exception of Ramcius' post, which I have already pointed out), it's natural for me to try to understand players on a deeper level so that I can more easily determine their alignment when we progress into the later stages of the game. You can think of my questions, therefore, as "setups" to scumhunting.

There are two points in your posts that I wish to refute. Firstly, you claim that I would find many things odd. I'm not sure where you got this impression. This is a very standard start to a newbie game, and nothing has popped out to me as particularly odd or out of place, with the exception of Gamma's over-enthusiasm. Secondly, you claim that I do not have a decent set of reads. Again, I am not sure where you got this impression. I do have quite a few reads - specifically I read Gamma as slightly scummy, Ramcius as town, and Charloux and Mewtaph as moderately townie. Granted, these are not complete or particularly strong, but it's unreasonable to expect very strong reads on page 3.

I am playing under the assumption that if you're asking a lot of questions, it's because you're curious as to why people are doing such things. Maybe the word "odd" was the wrong word. Mostly, I felt weird that you were withholding the information you were gaining from asking people said questions and their responses. Maybe I skimmed over it a little too hard because I was tunneled on a read I had on one of your other posts.

The way acc says "Since town cannot kill at night, we..." makes it seems like acc is trying to blend into town by saying "hey guys we are town." Normally, I read this as not alignment indicative but it's some sort of mental inconsistency that bothers me. When you're in this type of mindset when you're posting, I feel like you stick with it and say "okay, since I am town, when I say town, I say we and when I say mafia, I say they" but acc says mafia four times consecutively (as in without referring to another person again), and twice acc could've said "they" as a replacement for "mafia."

Why do you attribute this to a mental inconsistency as opposed to it simply being the way I like to post? There was another user on this site, iraonvp, who had the habit of always referring to certain alignments as "x-aligned". For example, he would never say things like "So-and-so is scum", he would say things like "So-and-so is scum-aligned". You could easily use your argument to say that this is indicative of iraonvp having a scummy mindset - but this is simply his posting style, so it's definitely not indicative of alignment.

I think that it's not a good idea to try to generalize about the mindset that people have about the way they use English, and especially not to draw conclusions about their alignment based on it. Sure, if I have a habit of always saying "they" when I am town and only say "mafia" when I am scum, then it's fine to scumread me for this. But in this case it's just the way I like to speak.

Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying because your analogy is wrong. I'm not saying you're scum for saying mafia, I'm saying that the way you're being inconsistent is scummy with your usage of perspective. You start off with the perspective of being town when you say "we" and then you drop the perspective when you could be saying "they" instead of "mafia" multiple times which I find weird. It's like you were trying to pretend to be town by saying "we" and then forgot to keep in that mindset when talking about mafia.

[nydushermain]

I think mewtaph is lightly townie too after a reread. I think that the way he addressed charloux sounded like he was potentially pushing scum on char, but wasn't really too accusatory and instead, felt more inquisitive.

@nydushermain: Say Player X came in for their first post with an accusation on one of the active players, Player Y. How would you go about trying to read this kind of post?

It would depend on the circumstance. I know I didn't really say this as a reason but to be honest, I really liked how what you posted sounded in my head. I read it in a sassy way and I liked it.

[nydushermain]

I've read a past game of yours @accountant and found that the style of questions you ask are similar (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5&start=75) but I still think that you are being more passive in this game than you were in the game that I mentioned. I'll keep you at light scum, although I'm tempted to full on push on you because I think you have a good chance of being mafia, solely because I believe that without you, this game would still be on page 2.

I think that Charloux is quite scummy as well. I think that post 87 did not come from a towny mindset. He says that he thinks Ramcius is scum because of his "overly aggressive" attitude and defensiveness but when he continues to be, what I perceive as, being even more aggressive, Charloux decides to just back off? I understand deciding "okay, this tunnel might be clouding my judgement, I'll look back at other people now" but there's no indication for me that Charloux was even looking at other people as potential scum.

I read accountant scum initially for the same reasons as pepchoninga and I want to say it's a sheep but I don't think it's the case. It feels too obvious a sheep when the only (what I think is) substantial scum read given was from me and his scum read seems to be almost identical. The reason why I think it might not be a sheep (and this is the way I'm leaning for now) is that near the bottom of post 82,

I believe that what Accountant is doing is provoking people to show there true self. Questions in mafia are not asked for people to get answers but to see reactions. Ways they answer are hints to who they are. Tho this can also be used as a great protection. Xe almost talks like all his actions till this point are all made in the benefit of town. While other members are showing some motives and are even demonstating there playstyles, Accountant is being calm and collected, asking questions and then leaving them at that, without taking actions or persuing people who he belives are not town to further pressure them.

FoS: Accountant

Also I think it was you who asked me if I like early pressure lynches. Here is my answer: It depends. When I play in a new enviorment like this, with people I do not know, I mostly like to not take actions till I get the flow of the game and get to actually know a the people I'm playing with a little bit.

About bandwagoning. This is a term that was constantly used to point mafia in my first games of mafia on another not dedicated to mafia forum. Bandwagoning too fast and without trying to give your thoughts on why exactly you think a certain person deserves your vote could be suspicious. If you bandwagon with reason then it's not a bad thing. In fact is a winning move for Town.

he says "also I think it was you who asked me" which shows that he's probably just skimming through the thread and not really paying attention to exactly what is being said. I feel like he probably just saw accountant's name pop up the most in posts and just read through those posts and decided to make a stance on accountant's alignment. So for now, I lightly town lean on pepchoninga because I think that his thoughts are coming from a towny mind set since I thought the same things.

[nydushermain]

@gamma, sorry my reading comprehension might be a little bit poor. Are you saying that accountant as town posts less in small games such as this one?

[nydushermain]

btw, anyone could tell me which roles from matrix6 we got in this game? Cause i can't find or it's secret?

I don't really have much on ramcius but I think that the above post leans towny.

Let's assume that he's scum. He knows from scum chat that only one column and row are possible setups because he knows which mafia role is in the game. Then, he only has two to choose from. Does scum Ramcius just ask randomly "Hey ya'll, do we know what the exact set up is?" instead of asking his partners in night chat when he has a tonne of information already? I feel like the above question can only really be asked from the pov of someone who has almost no information on the roles.

[nydushermain]

Sorry! I haven't actually been gone, I've been following the game but don't know what to think. On one hand, I feel like accountant is the scummiest but on the other hand, I feel like if he flips town, we lost our most active town member. I will say though that Charloux feels a bit townier. I feel like his posts seems like town frustration. For now, I won't be taking my vote off of accountant because I think this is our best chance of hitting scum.

[nydushermain]

Something about Gamma feels fake to me. I feel like he might be a tad bit lazy but I can't really tell. Not sure if this is alignment indicative though but if I had to pick a side, I'd say it's a tad bit scummier. Either way, I probably wouldn't vote on him today unless it was between him and someone I found to be absolutely town. I'll give my full list of town/scum in a rainbow list when I get home but if people need something to talk about, I would say that a wagon on accountant is quite good. Also, I know that I said in the previous post 145 that Charloux sounded townier because of tone, I don't town lean him so if we can't lynch accountant, I would be complacent with a charloux lynch. To be honest, I'm kind of just waiting for a flip of some kind so that I can dig into ISOs.

[nydushermain]

Yep, so I already feel out of my depth in this game :/ Sorry everyone for being inactive, I have been a little unreliably attached to the internet for the last 2-3 days.

@Van: So, to be clear, you think that forming lynches on players is okay, but you think mindlessly hopping onto wagons is bad, right?

Yes, I think mindless wagon hopping is bad. Forming Lynches is more case by case dependent. If I think someone is town, but people are forming a lynch on them and I can't understand the argument, I will become suspicious of those players, and equally so those that vote for the player without adding their own thoughts.

I still hold my suspicions on Charloux, and Accountant, though could someone correct me if I am wrong on Accountants [quote="In post 83 but is this an example of wine in front of me? I don't fully understand the concept, but the only other game I played (different site), people told me wine in front of me was scummy because it reduces the ability to properly argue against it or something along those lines.

I am also suspicious of Gamma for town reading me? I didn't think I had done enough of anything to form a solid read on me. - Nevermind, sorry, I missed a few posts it seems I haven't decided if this point is mute yet though I am leaning no, that seems very little to go off of in my opinion

owo

Not sure if you're confused of what "WIFOM" means or not but if it is, it's the equivalent of people claiming that they wouldn't do certain thing or would do certain things depending on their alignments. For example, if Susie says "well if I were mafia, I would never be this nice," that's WIFOM because we can't possibly know that. Similarly, Susie could also say "if I were mafia, I'd be much more aggressive" which is similar but I wanted to show that it wasn't always someone claiming "I wouldn't do _____."

[nydushermain]

I asked something similar to nydus in 129, which I think both of you need to sort out in some way or another if either of you want to continue pushing Accountant in a meaningful manner.

Sorry I must've missed it. I find it interesting that accountant is almost avoiding giving a read on me even though I was the first person to push on him and he's asked me questions (which is, if I recall him saying, his attempts at determing people's alignments by making them reveal their true selves). Maybe I missed it because I'm not taking notes but I find it really odd. I also read a couple of his past games when he was town and he was way more aggressive. It feels like in this game, he's playing it a lot more laid back, and it seems like he's just trying to avoid getting in a major conflict with anyone.

[nydushermain]

I think that an accountant wagon would be good and maybe it doesn't have enough traction with just 1 person on it (me) so I think pepchoninga, if you voted on him, it would be very helpful.

[nydushermain]

@ny: The game being shorter if Accountant wasn't posting is more indicative of Accountant being town imo

Then why is Accountant null on your readlist?

ny's reasoning was that if Accountant hadn't posted the game would be shorter amd she was scum for that and I felt the logic was off. My catchup was based on content, not activity level, so that caused a mismatch.

No you misunderstood. My reason for calling accountant scum was for other reasons. The only reason I lied and said he was light scum (instead of saying for sure scum) was purely for activity reasons. It was pretty much my way of saying I would give him somewhat of a break because of activity but other than that, there was nothing. So yeah, opposite of what you said. I gave him townie points for activity instead of scum points.

[nydushermain]

Ny, are you saying we should lynch accountant, cause he was asking questions and being active? That's a red flag on you now

What? Have you not read anything I've said about accountant?

[nydushermain]

I literally said that he was scum for other reasons and the ONLY reason why I didn't think he was an automatic lynch was because of his activity.

[nydushermain]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p8632534 That's my ISO

[nydushermain]

Well, I'm very tired and I just had a very tiring week. I am not in the mood to play ISO games. Please link to the exact post where you outline your reasons.

68: I outline my initial scum read on you based on your passiveness and DESPITE ACTIVITY and based on a post which I feel is scummy and I can't shake off

157: I say that it's weird that you're avoiding reading me despite our interactions

[nydushermain]

If DBW gets lynched and flips town, I'd look at the people jumping on him for inactivity. That is just the easiest fluff read you can give as scum to lynch a town. If he flips scum, kudos to positions 1 and 3 in the wagon. First to push is probably town unless he's scum planning it out but not planning to have gotten his partner lynched so if position 1 lasts a while without getting night killed, look at him. Position 3 is almost always town to me if DBW is scum because he pushed the votes to a dangerous number. No one had higher than votes at the time so to push your scum partner a third vote in the circumstance seems extremely weird play. It kind of damns a lurking scum partner so I think position 3 is always town in that case.

[nydushermain]

I'm not saying we're lynching DBW but he has 3 votes now and 5 votes, from what I understand, is an autolynch.

[nydushermain]

There are 3 people with <10 posts. If they're all town do we just give mafia the win by lynching them all? I think DBW could potentially be scum but I think that going after obvious scum is better. There are people who have done things scummy, and then there are people who haven't done things towny. I'd rather lynch the former.

[nydushermain]

Please come up with better reasons than lynching a lurker for DBW. I've seen him lurk out before as town.

Something about this post seems really scummy. Can't quite place my tongue on why though...

[nydushermain]

I didn't even remember you voted him. Just something about your post sounds scummy. Maybe I'm just reading it to myself in a scummy tone.

[nydushermain]

If DBW gets lynched and flips town, I'd look at the people jumping on him for inactivity. That is just the easiest fluff read you can give as scum to lynch a town. If he flips scum, kudos to positions 1 and 3 in the wagon. First to push is probably town unless he's scum planning it out but not planning to have gotten his partner lynched so if position 1 lasts a while without getting night killed, look at him. Position 3 is almost always town to me if DBW is scum because he pushed the votes to a dangerous number. No one had higher than votes at the time so to push your scum partner a third vote in the circumstance seems extremely weird play. It kind of damns a lurking scum partner so I think position 3 is always town in that case.

I don't really like how nydushermain is lining up lynches here.

nydusher, I've already very clearly explained why that post wasn't scummy. You've understood the explanation, but continue to insist that it's scummy. I think that's because of the fact that you want a reason to be able to push me that nobody can refute(because since your reasoning has been debunked you're essentially just claiming I'm scummy because of your gut). That's something that's extremely scummy - it absolves you of responsibility of justifying your reads while letting you push mislynches forward.

This fits with your lining up lynches on DBW - you want to be able to sit on me at the end of the day and NOT on the DBW wagon. Yet, at the same time, you're letting the wagon go forward while telling everyone why DBW is town and the wagon is misguided:

I'm not saying we're lynching DBW but he has 3 votes now and 5 votes, from what I understand, is an autolynch.

There are 3 people with <10 posts. If they're all town do we just give mafia the win by lynching them all? I think DBW could potentially be scum but I think that going after obvious scum is better. There are people who have done things scummy, and then there are people who haven't done things towny. I'd rather lynch the former.

This is not the calm, meandering mindset that a townie has when the rest of the town is voting some lurker for no reason over their strongest scumread who their gut and overwhelming textual evidence!!! says is scum. I'd expect town!nydushermain in this position to be going "why the heck are you all voting DBW when obvscum is right here??" and getting more and more frustrated when nobody follows. The fact that you're openly denouncing the DBW wagon while not doing anything to stop it tells me that you're scum who wants to coast through D1 on a lurker wagon that nobody will blame him for. And

then

you have lynches lined up after DBW flips, all while looking like a brave and outspoken townie who's sitting on the IC.

If you want my read on you, here it is. I think you're scum.

VOTE: nydushermain

LOL what? I'm not saying that DBW is town. I'm saying that in the case that he flips town, these are what I think the conclusions would be.

ALSO, you saying "I explained why the post isn't scummy" doesn't make the post nonscummy. I disagree with your explanations as to why you think they aren't scummy. I've searched through your past played threads and albeit I've only seen one game of you being scum, it was SO different to your play now.

[nydushermain]

That's some bad posting and I expect you to unvote Accountant, ny.

explain your town read on her

[nydushermain]

I completely misspoke... I meant that the town games were different to his play now.

[nydushermain]

Actually, that's also wrong and I want to explain something about his past games

[nydushermain]

I think in like the 10 games I dove through that Accountant has been in, there was only 1 where he was scum. Now the scum game was actually very different to ALL the games that I read through so I thought that maybe I was wrong. But before then, call it confirmation bias, but the town games I read of him were different. They had him being a lot more aggressive towards people which I didn't see from him this game. I don't know the exact number that I read through but pretend the number is 9 town games. Then, I FINALLY found a scum game from accountant and was like "wow this is pretty different from his town play and the play in the current thread" so then I started completely doubting my read. For the sake of ego though, I went through another thread that was dated to be before the scum game (as all the town games I had seen him in were played AFTER the scum game). The town game that he played right before the game where he rolled scum was very similar to (in my opinion) that game. So my conclusion is: Accountant changed playstyles after having played scum that game for whatever reason. So I didn't misspeak in that I said the wrong read, I misspoke in terms of the intent.

[nydushermain]

Now I could link these threads but it would involve me going through his thread history AGAIN which sounds like a complete waste of time. Also @accountant, you say that you expect me to be more angry about DBW being lynched over you? The thing is, like I said prior in 146, I'm waiting for a flip. That means that I'm open to being wrong on people and that although I have a scum read on you, there are 3 scum in this game, meaning that a lynch on another person could still produce a mafia.

[nydushermain]

If DBW gets lynched and flips town, I'd look at the people jumping on him for inactivity. That is just the easiest fluff read you can give as scum to lynch a town. If he flips scum, kudos to positions 1 and 3 in the wagon. First to push is probably town unless he's scum planning it out but not planning to have gotten his partner lynched so if position 1 lasts a while without getting night killed, look at him. Position 3 is almost always town to me if DBW is scum because he pushed the votes to a dangerous number. No one had higher than votes at the time so to push your scum partner a third vote in the circumstance seems extremely weird play. It kind of damns a lurking scum partner so I think position 3 is always town in that case.

I don't really like how nydushermain is lining up lynches here.

nydusher, I've already very clearly explained why that post wasn't scummy. You've understood the explanation, but continue to insist that it's scummy. I think that's because of the fact that you want a reason to be able to push me that nobody can refute(because since your reasoning has been debunked you're essentially just claiming I'm scummy because of your gut). That's something that's extremely scummy - it absolves you of responsibility of justifying your reads while letting you push mislynches forward.

When do I give any indication of "understanding" why your explanations are from a towny mindset?

[nydushermain]

Yes, you wait flip to trump after and tell how wrong wee wee and line up some ML, i don't see you as a town, you don't try solve DBW situation, you want him lynched, and your push on accountant based just on meta from reading other games is joke, you say we should vote our top scumread? i'm up for it

VOTE: Nydushermain

You don't read my other reasons for calling accountant scum. Have you heard of ISO?

[nydushermain]

Yes, you wait flip to trump after and tell how wrong wee wee and line up some ML, i don't see you as a town, you don't try solve DBW situation, you want him lynched, and your push on accountant based just on meta from reading other games is joke, you say we should vote our top scumread? i'm up for it

VOTE: Nydushermain

And what? I never implicated that I'd "berate people" or whatever for being potentially wrong on DBW. I presented both sides of him being scum or town.

[nydushermain]

I think in like the 10 games I dove through that Accountant has been in, there was only 1 where he was scum. Now the scum game was actually very different to ALL the games that I read through so I thought that maybe I was wrong. But before then, call it confirmation bias, but the town games I read of him were different. They had him being a lot more aggressive towards people which I didn't see from him this game. I don't know the exact number that I read through but pretend the number is 9 town games. Then, I FINALLY found a scum game from accountant and was like "wow this is pretty different from his town play and the play in the current thread" so then I started completely doubting my read. For the sake of ego though, I went through another thread that was dated to be before the scum game (as all the town games I had seen him in were played AFTER the scum game). The town game that he played right before the game where he rolled scum was very similar to (in my opinion) that game. So my conclusion is: Accountant changed playstyles after having played scum that game for whatever reason. So I didn't misspeak in that I said the wrong read, I misspoke in terms of the intent.

That's a bad conclusion. The reason for this pattern is simple: I change my playstyle every game. Mood affects my playstyle. The strength of the reads I have affect my playstyle(if someone is being outrageously scummy, I'll be much more aggressive). The players I'm playing with affect my playstyle(if I'm playing with Thor, I become less of a town leader, because Thor is a better town leader than me and having two leaders in one game is excessive and creates horrible messes if they clash). Meta affects my playstyle(I know Nahdia looks out for me bussing when I'm scum, so if I'm scum against Nahdia I bus less). There are probably some unknown or subconscious factors that affect my playstyle that I don't even know about. It's a bad idea to try to draw a read on me from something like looking at my past games' tone.

So do you not have strong scum reads this game then? Is that an explanation for your passiveness?

[nydushermain]

This is not the calm, meandering mindset that a townie has when the rest of the town is voting some lurker for no reason over their strongest scumread who their gut and overwhelming textual evidence!!! says is scum. I'd expect town!nydushermain in this position to be going "why the heck are you all voting DBW when obvscum is right here??" and getting more and more frustrated when nobody follows. The fact that you're openly denouncing the DBW wagon while not doing anything to stop it tells me that you're scum who wants to coast through D1 on a lurker wagon that nobody will blame him for. And

then

you have lynches lined up after DBW flips, all while looking like a brave and outspoken townie who's sitting on the IC.

If you want my read on you, here it is. I think you're scum.

VOTE: nydushermain

Also, you say that I'm trying to just coast through a D1 on a lurker wagon nobody will blame me for? If you're town accountant, read post 160. What you accuse me of is pretty much not voting on whoever is getting lynched today, them flipping town, and then me taking credit for it (similar to what ramcius is saying I think). Does the above post seem like someone who's trying to stand aside and just let whatever lynch go through and take credit for it? Does that really seem like my playstyle right now? Because if you're town accountant, I'm openly letting anyone bandwagon on you with me, including someone who read you scummy, and pretty much taking all credit for the mislynch. Yeah.. no.

[nydushermain]

Yes, you wait flip to trump after and tell how wrong wee wee and line up some ML, i don't see you as a town, you don't try solve DBW situation, you want him lynched, and your push on accountant based just on meta from reading other games is joke, you say we should vote our top scumread? i'm up for it

VOTE: Nydushermain

And what? I never implicated that I'd "berate people" or whatever for being potentially wrong on DBW. I presented both sides of him being scum or town.

exactly, you didn't do anything to make him talk, you simply say he can be town or scum, considering he said nothing useful yet, everyone can say same, and in different from you, we tried get him talking, but you don't want it, you just want him dead and see flip town

How do I want him dead? You're talking as if I'm coming from the mindset of scum but I want you to try to see if I can come up with the same shit I posted if I'm town. I don't know anyone's alignment this game. I LOVE digging through history and seeing who can be with who, whether I believe this person genuinely pushed on town or scum, etc. If DBW gets lynched, which I'm okay with because I don't know if I'm right on accountant, then fine, we lynch him. Any sort of alignment reveal helps me because I can dig into ISOs after. However, the person I read the scummiest is accountant and would I prefer a lynch on him? ABSOLUTELY and I've stated my reasons why. This doesn't mean that I'm trying to get some sort of "town cred" if DBW flips town. It means that I don't have a town read on DBW so there's a chance that he can be scum in my mind.

[nydushermain]

Also, you say that I'm trying to just coast through a D1 on a lurker wagon nobody will blame me for? If you're town accountant, read post 160. What you accuse me of is pretty much not voting on whoever is getting lynched today, them flipping town, and then me taking credit for it (similar to what ramcius is saying I think). Does the above post seem like someone who's trying to stand aside and just let whatever lynch go through and take credit for it? Does that really seem like my playstyle right now? Because if you're town accountant, I'm openly letting anyone bandwagon on you with me, including someone who read you scummy, and pretty much taking all credit for the mislynch. Yeah.. no.

No, what I am accusing you of is being

inconsistent

with your words and actions. You have explicitly said you think the DBW lynch isn't good:

I think DBW could potentially be scum but I think that going after obvious scum is better. There are people who have done things scummy, and then there are people who haven't done things towny. I'd rather lynch the former.

And you have explicitly said you think my lynch

is

good:

I think that an accountant wagon would be good

So it makes

no sense

to me for town!nydush to happily lay back and let the bad wagon go through over the good one while smiling and nodding and saying "well, maybe I'm wrong. Let's see how he flips!" and saying "of course, if he flips town, so-and-so need to be lynched, winky face".

The reason why I said a DBW lynch is bad is because YOU are my top lynch. If it goes through, honestly, w/e because he can still be scum but I personally want a lynch on who I think is scummier.

[nydushermain]

Now I could link these threads but it would involve me going through his thread history AGAIN which sounds like a complete waste of time. Also @accountant, you say that you expect me to be more angry about DBW being lynched over you? The thing is, like I said prior in 146, I'm waiting for a flip. That means that I'm open to being wrong on people and that although I have a scum read on you, there are 3 scum in this game, meaning that a lynch on another person could still produce a mafia.

There are 2 scum in this game, not 3. And that line of reasoning is bad. If I saw a lynch on a lurker that I think is bad while my top scum read is ignored, I'm not going to go "hmm, let's wait for a flip, maybe I'm wrong about the lurker", and that's not what any reasonable townie would think. This is an excuse generated by scum.

So when we have many days left and I could be wrong on a lurker, you don't think it's reasonable for me to be waiting for a flip so that I can go do ISO dives and see what the interactions are with people and whoever flipped? Get out of here.

[nydushermain]

And what? I never implicated that I'd "berate people" or whatever for being potentially wrong on DBW. I presented both sides of him being scum or town.

You're right. You aren't going to "berate" them, you're going to lynch them.

If DBW gets lynched and flips town, I'd look at the people jumping on him for inactivity. That is just the easiest fluff read you can give as scum to lynch a town.

So let's set up a hypothetical. Someone gets lynched and flips town. Do you think they have a greater than 50% chance of having scum in the wagon?

[nydushermain]

The reason why I said a DBW lynch is bad is because YOU are my top lynch. If it goes through, honestly, w/e because he can still be scum but I personally want a lynch on who I think is scummier.

I don't buy that at all. In a situation such as yours, a townie would be trying to show everyone how scummy I am so they'll agree with you that I am scummier and lynch me. You would be questioning me and attacking me harshly rather than going "yeah, I said something on page 3, remember that?" Here's why - it's clear that nobody buys your analysis of why I'm scum, so if you were town who were convinced I'm scum, you want to generate new content, you want to pressure me and make me slip up and make me do stuff that

would

make town buy that I'm scum. You have absolutely no reason to rehash old stuff that people have shown they aren't convinced by(or the wagon on me would be much bigger).

You tell me you want an Accountant wagon, but you aren't showing it. You're sitting back and coasting along.

Actually, pepchoninga gave a very similar reason to me for thinking you were scum. I pinged him to jump on the wagon with me. It doesn't seem clear at all. What seems clear is that no one is actually reading WHY I think you're scum and is just making dumb assessments based on the last couple of things I've said.

[nydushermain]

Actually, pepchoninga gave a very similar reason to me for thinking you were scum. I pinged him to jump on the wagon with me. It doesn't seem clear at all. What seems clear is that no one is actually reading WHY I think you're scum and is just making dumb assessments based on the last couple of things I've said.

If you acknowledge that nobody else is convinced by your extremely shoddy line of logic about why I'm scum, then if you were really convinced I'm scum you'd be trying to come up with new, more convincing lines of logic. That's what you would be focused on. The idea of letting a suboptimal lynch run through would never cross your mind at all, unless you were a player who was particularly doubtful of themselves or unconfident in their scumhunting - which doesn't fit with what you've shown us at all.

The problem here is that the notes I've made are in my head. If I could go back in time and make specific bookmarks of everything I've seen in your past games, I would but at the time, I was mostly looking for where you ended up being scum. Yes, I can assure you that I've been trying in my head to solve your alignment and maybe I'm doing it poorly in the environment of forum mafia because I'm not giving concrete evidence but trust me when I say I've tried to consider you as town. Confirmation bias is hard to overcome and to me, you're scummier than not.

[nydushermain]

and you saying you don't know anyone alignment in this game, it's so forced townslip

If we're talking about forced townslips, then I think his "there are 3 scum in the game" thing qualifies just as well.

FOR THE RECORD, I didn't want to mention that at all because I realized what I said after I said it and that's not my playstyle to try to be townread off a slip but I come from a video mafia community where the smallest game size has 3 mafia.

[nydushermain]

Show me where Pepchoninga agreed with your posts about me being scum because I said "mafia" instead of "they".

He didn't agree for that reason, but your passiveness.

[nydushermain]

Yes, you wait flip to trump after and tell how wrong wee wee and line up some ML, i don't see you as a town, you don't try solve DBW situation, you want him lynched, and your push on accountant based just on meta from reading other games is joke, you say we should vote our top scumread? i'm up for it

VOTE: Nydushermain

And what? I never implicated that I'd "berate people" or whatever for being potentially wrong on DBW. I presented both sides of him being scum or town.

exactly, you didn't do anything to make him talk, you simply say he can be town or scum, considering he said nothing useful yet, everyone can say same, and in different from you, we tried get him talking, but you don't want it, you just want him dead and see flip town

How do I want him dead? You're talking as if I'm coming from the mindset of scum but I want you to try to see if I can come up with the same shit I posted if I'm town. I don't know anyone's alignment this game. I LOVE digging through history and seeing who can be with who, whether I believe this person genuinely pushed on town or scum, etc. If DBW gets lynched, which I'm okay with because I don't know if I'm right on accountant, then fine, we lynch him. Any sort of alignment reveal helps me because I can dig into ISOs after. However, the person I read the scummiest is accountant and would I prefer a lynch on him? ABSOLUTELY and I've stated my reasons why. This doesn't mean that I'm trying to get some sort of "town cred" if DBW flips town. It means that I don't have a town read on DBW so there's a chance that he can be scum in my mind.

i can't see your actions as a town, cause i never would do this as a town, and i would always do so as a scum, and just 1 more time - WE WASN"T GOING LYNCH DBW - but you want it, aren't you? Cause you know he's gonna flip town, and you saying you don't know anyone alignment in this game, it's so forced townslip, i don't see town saying something like that, and for end, you never lynch active person on hunch early - you don't want end game with lurkers, been there, i know what i'm saying, unless you scum, then you want that, easier pull ML with lurkers in end

Honestly, there's a good chance he's going to flip town. 3 lurkers out of 9 players, 2 being mafia? That's just a good statistic for him. That's all I have on him. If you say you can't see me as town because you PERSONALLY can't see yourself playing the way I have, that's fine. If you're so thick headed that you can't see people having different playstyles compared to you, by all means, lynch me. I still think you're town but you're heading in a horrible direction.

[nydushermain]

Actually, pepchoninga gave a very similar reason to me for thinking you were scum. I pinged him to jump on the wagon with me. It doesn't seem clear at all. What seems clear is that no one is actually reading WHY I think you're scum and is just making dumb assessments based on the last couple of things I've said.

If you acknowledge that nobody else is convinced by your extremely shoddy line of logic about why I'm scum, then if you were really convinced I'm scum you'd be trying to come up with new, more convincing lines of logic. That's what you would be focused on. The idea of letting a suboptimal lynch run through would never cross your mind at all, unless you were a player who was particularly doubtful of themselves or unconfident in their scumhunting - which doesn't fit with what you've shown us at all.

is it bussing Pepchonga? Cause me and Carloux too accused Accountant early in game, yet you ignored that fact and say on Pepchonga scumread Accountant, hence i never said i changed my mind on Accountant, i still don't trust, but i rather go in end game with Accountant than DBW, Pepchonga or other lurker

But your reason was different. Pepchoninga and I came to FOSing accountant for the same reason but it seems like we came across it separately.

[nydushermain]

Honestly, there's a good chance he's going to flip town. 3 lurkers out of 9 players, 2 being mafia? That's just a good statistic for him. That's all I have on him. If you say you can't see me as town because you PERSONALLY can't see yourself playing the way I have, that's fine. If you're so thick headed that you can't see people having different playstyles compared to you, by all means, lynch me. I still think you're town but you're heading in a horrible direction.

and how you know both mafia are in lurkers? So, tell me your playstyle - have strong read on someone, call for lynch, and then just lay back and watch town lynch lurker (and just push that too, without jumping wagon), telling to everyone lurker might flip town, when confronted, changed mind on lurker most likely flip scum, do i do it right in guessing your style?

I don't know that 2 mafia are in the lurkers. They might literally all be town which is why I PREFER a lynch on someone who I think has done things scummy. There very well could be 2 mafia though in the lurkers as well and I could be tunneling on someone who's town because the mafia just hasn't done anything scummy because they haven't done anything period.

In terms of playstyle, I'm the type of person who reevaluates constantly. Granted, I haven't shown that with accountant, look at my reads on other people. Pretty sure people have been going all over the place in terms of what I think in terms of their alignment. I give a lot of my opinions openly in the heat of the moment. I may contradict myself but my opinion constantly evolves. I think I said in the past that I'd offer a list of reads but I didn't because I couldn't. Everytime I tried to write up a list, the reads changed and I reread ISOs. Who do I push on? I push on people who I think are scum and I try to get them lynched because I prefer it over someone who I don't think has done anything at all. If these people KEEP lurking throughout the game, then I'll lynch them. The best case scenario is that they get replaced and we end up with someone active who will actually give a hint of their alignment.

[nydushermain]

The problem here is that the notes I've made are in my head. If I could go back in time and make specific bookmarks of everything I've seen in your past games, I would but at the time, I was mostly looking for where you ended up being scum. Yes, I can assure you that I've been trying in my head to solve your alignment and maybe I'm doing it poorly in the environment of forum mafia because I'm not giving concrete evidence but trust me when I say I've tried to consider you as town. Confirmation bias is hard to overcome and to me, you're scummier than not.

That doesn't explain

anything

. I'm asking why you seem to not be fighting very hard against a lynch you've acknowledge yourself as suboptimal. Yes, it's not the worst lynch in the world, there's still a chance of DBW being scum. But any reasonable town who wants to win does not want "merely passable" lynches. They want the

best possible lynch

every single day. There is absolutely 0 reason for you as town to not care that the lynch that we are having is not the best possible lynch unless you don't care about town executing the best possible lynch. And only scum has that kind of thinking.

Trust me when I say if I townread the guy, I'd be fighting harder. He's a null read so I'm not fighting it but trying to also get you lynched.

[nydushermain]

The way ny used meta doesn't feel like a scum use, also the fact he went back after realizing his analysis was off.

then who are scum?

103

[nydushermain]

Actually... that's a good question. Why do you have DBW as scum? And also pep?

[nydushermain]

I deleted my notes accidentally so I don't know my exact reasoning. I really just hope one more person towntells so I can PoE the game.

But these are the two people with the smallest ISOs. Surely if you scumread them, DBW being your largest scum, you could easily read and remember the reason? I can understand not being able to give a strong read on me, ramcius, accountant, etc. because we've had huge ISOs and notes are probably very useful for us but these guys have no content at all.

[nydushermain]

I believe I scumread Pep for SRing Accountant for IC posting

That was me. But it wasn't because of the IC posting, but the content of it. You noted that before.

[nydushermain]

Here, I'll make it easier for you:
DBW's 5 post ISO
Pepchoninga's 5 post ISO

[nydushermain]

so, your reads haven't changed after all this discussion? Cause that was post 103, now we at 240

Some TRs have gotten stronger but my SRs are still similar.
Though tbqh I think scum is just letting my and Accountant slap fight. I want more from Charloux, Pepcho, and DBW

Honestly, I think I could be wrong on accountant and just letting confirmation bias get in the way. I just can't shake this feeling though that he's scum.

[nydushermain]

Is it fair to say that you don't feel strongly in your ability to scum hunt but you feel that you can just find town and win the game with a solid town circle? @gamma

[nydushermain]

Is there a particular reason why?

[nydushermain]

Well that's a lot of stuff to go through.
Thoughts in a bit.

gl

[nydushermain]

Why he made his first post concerning DBW in the first place. If you look at the first post he makes on DBW, it looks and feels like a standalone that he'd leave by itself if you didn't vote him straight afterwards.

Okay I think we're talking past each other a little bit at this point.

Let me summarize my case.

WHY IS NYDUSHER SCUM:
- lines up lynches
- says he wants to lynch me over DBW but looks like he doesn't really care
- tries to pass off what is essentially a gut read as a legitimate read

Now, your turn.

1. Not lining up lynches, gave a list of people I'd lynch in order which is a way in video mafia of saying "these are my top scum"
2. I do want to lynch you over DBW but it's alright that he gets lynched fmpov
3. It was a legitimate read that turned into ALSO being a gut read on top of it

[nydushermain]

He's stated multiple times in thread that he's not completely sure of his read on you, this could be an explanation of why it looks like he doesn't care/seems unsure. This is a valid point, he says "w/e because he can still be scum", now I'd prefer for a less pressure filled environment to question him in rather than someone voting him and questioning him at the same time.

I don't buy that his weak on me is read. He's been fairly stubborn about saying that I am scum, but doesn't back it up with actions.

Okay sir, if you're actually mafia, constantly saying I don't back it up with actions is going to make me your absolute worst nightmare because I'm this close to thread diving you again and flooding this game with posts from other games and how differently you play in them.

[nydushermain]

Also, Ramcius, I don't quite understand what you're trying to say there. How does the fact that he's changing his opinion make him scum? It's perfectly reasonable for him to change his reads as time goes on.

Yes, as time goes on, but he changed opinion on you without any good reason, at first he was against your lynch (which wasn't planned) and after he lay back and say "ok, lynch DBW, i just want see him flip", i could accept, if you came and said something, so he was ok with your lynch, but you didn't, and it's only Nys, who want you dead, and Gamma, but he forgot why scumread you, so, i don't count him

Because I thought about it. Things change when I first read things versus when I think of things.

[nydushermain]

If we continue this way, we end up with 9 townies in here, since seems everyone is town in this game So maybe start suggesting lynch targets, not just defending everyone, and i say that to all, cause deadline is coming, and i still don't like Nys, nothing make sense to me from town POV, he changes his position all the time, first he say we shouldn't lynch DBW (ignoring me and Charloux clearly stating we just want DBW talk, not lynch), going same even after i explain several times we not going lynch DBW, and he was lining lynches there, after he agreed and said both mafia are in 3 lurking people (weird statement from town), he's case on Accountant make no sense, something he found in other Accountant game, and we should now go and find that game, cause he didn't said what was different in that game from other 9 Accountant town games, and why here it's similar to that scum game, he inconsistent in all he do, yes, he said he changes his minds all time, but he was holding on DBW lynch idea so hard despite telling him no one is going lynch

I didn't agree that there were 2 mafia in the lurking people -_- . You asked me if there could be and I said yes. I feel like there's a language barrier here and you're just not understanding exactly what I'm saying.

[nydushermain]

I get that "Mewtaph did this last time and he was town", but you haven't showed me:
a) Why this is exclusive to town - ie. why this is done as town but not done as scum
b) Why you feel it's a consistent pattern enough to give hard townreads on rather than a one off thing.

a) It's not.
b) It's not, I just am already in the mindset of him being town prior to reading it and even as I'm typing here. I'll admit that I'm wrong in saying this is townie by any definition of the word, but for me it doesn't register as scum pings all over the place, I notice the inconsistencies and eyebrow raising posts and I don't think "Wtf lynch this now the scum pings are real", I think "Looks like scum, but I've done that before: why not get clarification first?". Because I've done similar things before/been thought of as scum without legitimately being reached out to, may be why I am thinking nydus of town here. FMPOV if I consider my anecdotal evidence it helps town a lot more to dial it down a bit on the accusations here and see if anything changes.

Reading this post kind of made me interested. So I think currently that Ramcius is town and he thinks of me as scum. I don't actually agree with anything that Ramcius is saying about me because I feel like he's taking the wrong meaning of everything I say. Why do I mention Ramcius? Mostly because mewtaph said that he was looking at me as town already, and now it kind of seems like because of that, he read everything I wrote in the argument in a towny mindset and kind of molded his reads to confirm that. Similarly, I feel like Ramcius decided that I was scum and decided to mold everything I said in that mindset as well. That's not actually a read on anything but it's interesting to see both perspectives. Random thought.

[nydushermain]

ramcius
mewtaph
gamma

DWB

charloux = accountant???

I'm neglecting to read the person getting replaced and the person prodded because honestly, I their replacement (if active) will just do a lot more and be more indicative of their reads.

ramcius

: Ramcius just feels like arrogant town to me. Feels like a town who thinks that he caught a mafia even though his reading comprehension could use a little work. 93 also solidifies him being town for me.

mewtaph

: This could be an absolute pocket but I feel like mewtaph is describing me to a tee. I already had him as light town for the way he spoke early game but it feels like there's a possibility that he has TMI. It's just too perfect how much he knows how I'm playing but that could also be because like I noted prior to this, that he started off going into reading the arguments, that I'm town. Either way, consider me pocketed.

Gamma

: The interesting thing is, I found gamma scummy before the arguments but I feel like the way he's defended me is so odd from a scum perspective. Pretty much, two of the other most active players, ramcius and accountant are going on me, and gamma decides to defend me? He even goes so far to say that if there's a 1v1 between me and accountant that he'd vote accountant? I put him on light town for now because of this but I'll write something up near the end of this post as a remark.

DWB

: DWB seems overwhelmed with posts. NAI.

charloux

: I can't decide where to place Charloux this game. I've had him as scum, then as neutral, and now he's just back at scum. I think that there's a fair chance that Charloux just won't ever make it into my town circle.

I don't buy that your town read on me was so strong that you'd be willing to risk tipping me off to the fact that he might be a PR. Furthermore, you indicated earlier that such a mentality was in fact indicative of scum and not PR.

No, you are null to me. And why would i say something like: His personality is indicative of him being scum or a PR? What would happen if i did? I needed a second opinion and you looked like a good choice.

This was the last read that charloux gave on accountant. A null read.

188-He looks a bit agitated since he is using caps, so his following posts shouldn't be taken with face value. Small inconsistencies should be ignored
195-Don't think scum would go ahead with an explanation about something that they weren't asked to do.
Yeah, caps mean he is agitated. like when he says there are 3 scum in 196; Nyd, do you mean to say that you are okay with lynching a null and scummier players from your reads today?
I'm too lazy for the back and forth talk analysis.
Accountants case would normally make sense, but Ny's uniqueness has been ongoing for the whole game so i don't buy it; If he is faking it, he will show an opening sooner or later. I don't agree with his case(?) on Accountant at all though. Ny doesn't look prideful, so i don't think he is just pushing his read because he is just stubborn. I think he really thinks he is right...

You read EVERYTHING in the arguments and you don't have an opinion on accountant other than to say that you think my reasons are incorrect? I feel like it's odd that you're focusing on only me after all that and not looking at at least assigning accountant scum or town. You can't possibly have accountant null after all that. Even by gut or tone.

accountant

: I still think that everything I've said about accountant stands but I'm open to being wrong. I feel like I'm put in a place right now where we're almost forced to stubbornly call eachother mafia. If you read post 295, it also applies to accountant. I feel like we could just be seeing eachother as scum and letting confirmation bias get in the way.


Remarks: If accountant and I are both town, then accountant and ramcius accusing me of lining up lynches has ironically lined up lynches for the mafia because if either of us dies, I'm pretty sure the other is next. I've noticed that I'm townreading some of my staunchest defenders and part of the reason I think is emotional attachment I've built up because people were definitely going aggro on me last night and I think the relief of having people realize I'm town has made me think that the people saying these things are also town. In a couple days, I think I'll be more suitable for giving another go at reading them. I could totally see them being scum and doing this to just set up a ___ vs ____ scenario where both people are town.

Remark Remark: I'm too lazy to edit the post but I actually think mewtaph is my hardest town now UNLESS accountant is scum.

In 261, mewtaph says he thinks this is a TvT and that we should stop it. If we are both town, I feel like defending both of us is a horrible play as scum because he's taking away free lynches and discord within the town. HOWEVER. In the case where accountant is scum, I think mewtaph as scum would know that if I get lynched here, accountant looks extremely scummy after my role flip so he needs to find a way to calm it down and try to make both of us move on.

[nydushermain]

Well, i don't think Charloux is scum, don't want lynch accountant just now, we can sort it later (very likely mafia will take care of it, if he's town), so from your list only DBW, and since he still not want do shit, i think we can give rope to him

VOTE: DBW

Is that you changing your opinion on me?

[nydushermain]

I'm not trying to be rude alisae but asking people questions about their reads from 200+ posts ago might be a bit stale.

[nydushermain]

I think the past couple pages are a bit more juicy if you're looking for reads.

[nydushermain]

nydushermain, explain clearly what your motivation was for giving an unprompted reads list. Do you think that people were very clueless as to what your reads were?

@nydushermain: Need thoughts and reads from you within your next few posts please. Holding off on my own read list until you post yours.

Because I can read.

[nydushermain]

So nydusher, let's have a talk. Why am I scum? You claim that you have legitimate reasoning other than the "them" thing, which everyone other than you thinks is silly. Let's hear it. Am I too passive? Is it that I'm not giving reads on you?

Well now I feel like you're not even listening to anything I'm saying.

[nydushermain]

I probably scum read you for the same reason you scum read me. You've decided that I'm scum already and no matter how I explain to you my thought process, you just say "Oh I don't believe it."

[nydushermain]

I probably scum read you for the same reason you scum read me. You've decided that I'm scum already and no matter how I explain to you my thought process, you just say "Oh I don't believe it."

I assure you, I believe very much that you are scum reading me. And hey, it looks like Alisae wants to understand too, and she hasn't decided you're scum.

That's not what I meant. What I meant is that you've got confirmation bias already planted into your head so no matter how I try to explain to you that everything that you've accused me for, I've done as town, your retort is just "oh I don't believe it."

[nydushermain]

Yeah, to be honest, I think you two are getting into a TvT fight, and ywall are super distracted on what is actually going on. So let's bring it ontopic here.

To the both of you, what are your reads on other players?

296 for my reads.

I've already stated my reasons in the past for thinking that accountant was scum but something that bothers me currently is that he doesn't care about anything else I've done in the game other than the shit that revolved around DBW. If he really thinks I'm scum, why is he so held up on 2-3 posts instead of trying to go through my entire activity and seeing what specifically was scummy?

On the flip side, I think that we might be in the same boat where we're just hard calling each other scum but are so stubborn/arrogant that anything that we do, we make up stupid reasons as to why it's from a scum perspective. I feel like a couple people have said that things I've done come from a towny perspective, but accountant hasn't said "those only come from a scum mindset," only said "no, I think he's mafia" or something along those lines. So I feel like he's just potentially being stubborn because he's not saying that I'm doing these things from a scummy perspective, just trying to discredit anyone's town read on me.

[nydushermain]

Come on, man. You think I'm a scumbutt, right? You should be chomping at the bit to tell Alisae just why I'm the scummiest person alive and get her on my wagon! Or at least, you would if you really cared about lynching scum.

I'm tired of you and your attempts at "logic" when you're not even reading what I'm saying. At this point, I just want anyone lynched for a role flip and then see what their interactions have been.

[nydushermain]

Can we just kill DBW and see what happens? I'm willing to be the hammer if there's a fourth vote.

[nydushermain]

So you are saying that anything I said when it came to reads on who is scum has had NO influence on you. Kay.

Describe what you just said about Accountant and all of your arguements agaisnt Accountant in 20 words or less.

I haven't really paid much attention to you yet tbh.

[nydushermain]

I'm tired of you and your attempts at "logic" when you're not even reading what I'm saying. At this point, I just want anyone lynched for a role flip and then see what their interactions have been.

Yep, no, you're not getting away with evading this.

Do you think I am scum? Yes or no?

Refusal to answer will be treated as a scum claim.

I'm leaning scum on you but I could be wrong. If I had a choice between anyone in this game and you, I'd vote you (with the exception of charloux).

[nydushermain]

Ya know what I said earlier about not hoping onto any other wagons? Yeah....About that...

Lynch Nyd today, lynch Pep tomorrow.

VOTE: nydushermain

For the record, I think that pep is leaning town so I'm probably going to sleep soon. If I wake up and I'm dead, despite not having given a read on pep because of prodding/replacement, I'm putting him in town.

[nydushermain]

I'm leaning scum on you but I could be wrong. If I had a choice between anyone in this game and you, I'd vote you (with the exception of charloux).

You don't get to try to evade giving an opinion about me. That's something scum likes to do to keep their options open. Right now, do you think I am more likely to be scum than town? Yes, or no?

Uhh, I openly admit that I'm keeping my options open. Why? Because I could be wrong? And reread the thing you quoted. Like I said, you're in this dumb ass tunnel on my thinking that no matter what I do, it's from a scum perspective. You're like skipping words that I say and if you're town, you should clear your damn mind, and reread my damn ISO.

[nydushermain]

Nyd, at this point, you're being anti-town. If you were town, you would want to coperate with people like me. But you're still attacking Accountant. You know it's not working. I don't think you even did what I told you to do with accountant. Additionally, you just want pressure to be off you, but there is no way that is happening currently. You put all the attention on yourself, but that would be good if you weren't attacking your IC the whole game and doing town things.

What is stopping you from voting DBW now if you want to hammer him so badly? I bet you were probably waiting for me to take that to L-1.

I'm not even the one instigating this fight. He's the one that's not backing down.

[nydushermain]

I've been willing to take a step back and think about it but he didn't stop so you can pretend that I'm the one that keeps being anti town but it's him. So chill out.

[nydushermain]

I'm leaning scum on you but I could be wrong. If I had a choice between anyone in this game and you, I'd vote you (with the exception of charloux).

You don't get to try to evade giving an opinion about me. That's something scum likes to do to keep their options open. Right now, do you think I am more likely to be scum than town? Yes, or no?

Uhh, I openly admit that I'm keeping my options open. Why? Because I could be wrong? And reread the thing you quoted. Like I said, you're in this dumb ass tunnel on my thinking that no matter what I do, it's from a scum perspective. You're like skipping words that I say and if you're town, you should clear your damn mind, and reread my damn ISO.

Yes, or no?

Answer the question. I've asked you this question 3 times already, and you keep shying away from it. I'm going to keep pressing you until I get a definitive yes or no answer.

Because I've already answered it.

[nydushermain]

What does leaning scum mean?

[nydushermain]

Nyd, at this point, you're being anti-town. If you were town, you would want to coperate with people like me. But you're still attacking Accountant. You know it's not working. I don't think you even did what I told you to do with accountant. Additionally, you just want pressure to be off you, but there is no way that is happening currently. You put all the attention on yourself, but that would be good if you weren't attacking your IC the whole game and doing town things.

What is stopping you from voting DBW now if you want to hammer him so badly? I bet you were probably waiting for me to take that to L-1.

I'm not even the one instigating this fight. He's the one that's not backing down.

What is this? Third grade? If he is not backing down, that just says you have conf bias. And I'm pretty sure this is wrong anyways.

If you're going to take a step back, just do it.

I'm giving a response to his questions. Not even asking him more questions. I'm not trying to make the conversation move further.

[nydushermain]

Why are you so afraid of giving me a yes or no answer?

Because I don't have one.

[nydushermain]

Why are you so afraid of giving me a yes or no answer?

Like I said, I think you're scummier than not but I'm open to the thought that it might be confirmation bias. If you want to keep harping on it, go ahead, but you're not doing any favours for town doing so.

[nydushermain]

Why are you so afraid of giving me a yes or no answer?

Because I don't have one.

It is literally impossible for you not to have one.

Either you think that YES I am more likely to be scum than town or NO I am more likely to be town than scum. It is literally mathematically impossible for you to not have a yes or not answer to this question.

I've given the answer that I think you're more mafia than you are town. Have you read above? You've even quoted me when I've said it.

[nydushermain]

Leaning scum is an answer.

[nydushermain]

Why are you so afraid of giving me a yes or no answer?

Like I said, I think you're scummier than not but I'm open to the thought that it might be confirmation bias. If you want to keep harping on it, go ahead, but you're not doing any favours for town doing so.

You've been repeating yourself for the past 4 pages.

Accountant, you're not getting the answer you want out of him. It's obvious at this point.

I think it's ridiculously scummy that you don't think I've answered him already. I think that you have some weirdass bias towards accountant, whether you're scum and decided "I'm going to pick this side in the TvT" and you're deciding to completely ignore anything he's done to be scummy and ignoring anything I've done to be towny. OR, you were paying attention to reading the first half of the game and then when you got to the last couple pages, you just got lazy and skimmed through it all.

[nydushermain]

I don't know if it's a TvT but I think that if you're scum, it probably is. Why don't you push accountant if you think I've already answered him? Why don't you ask accountant "do you not think that this is a good enough answer?" It feels like you're not even looking at accountant as a player in the game at all and just gunning for me.

[nydushermain]

I'm glad you got replaced in, because now I have three scum reads.

[nydushermain]

I've given the answer that I think you're more mafia than you are town. Have you read above? You've even quoted me when I've said it.

What about the other players in the game? Do you think they are more mafia than town, too?

You, charloux, and now ali.

[nydushermain]

I dunno accountant. It sounds like you're just trying to fight me for the sake of fighting me. I feel like I've already answered everything you've pretty much ever asked of me but you're just not reading it. I don't know if you've been having a horrible week, a horrible past couple days, I have no idea. But we have a lot of time left in the day, just sit back and come back to me after.

[nydushermain]

I don't know if it's a TvT but I think that if you're scum, it probably is. Why don't you push accountant if you think I've already answered him? Why don't you ask accountant "do you not think that this is a good enough answer?" It feels like you're not even looking at accountant as a player in the game at all and just gunning for me.

Because I think Accountant is town?
And you're flailing right now. I don't think there's a need to do that.
I really wanna get Peppy lynched, but I can't ignore how anti-town you're being at the moment. Not to mention I've been nodding along with Accountant this whole time.

I've given the answer that I think you're more mafia than you are town. Have you read above? You've even quoted me when I've said it.

What about the other players in the game? Do you think they are more mafia than town, too?

You, charloux, and now ali.

Pick 2 of those. 3 scum does not exist in one newbie.
And why me?

I think your vote on me was no natural and I think that your interaction with me is just you trying to push scum on me without actually having any content with regards to my alignment. The majority of my posting is in the last couple of pages and you said you only skimmed it, said that you agree with accountant's case more than mine, even though you only skimmed it, and now you're saying that I'm scum? Yeah right.

We have many lynches, I'm allowed to have 3. Do you want me to artificially RNG one of you three into town reads?

[nydushermain]

I don't know if it's a TvT but I think that if you're scum, it probably is. Why don't you push accountant if you think I've already answered him? Why don't you ask accountant "do you not think that this is a good enough answer?" It feels like you're not even looking at accountant as a player in the game at all and just gunning for me.

Because I think Accountant is town?
And you're flailing right now. I don't think there's a need to do that.
I really wanna get Peppy lynched, but I can't ignore how anti-town you're being at the moment. Not to mention I've been nodding along with Accountant this whole time.

I've given the answer that I think you're more mafia than you are town. Have you read above? You've even quoted me when I've said it.

What about the other players in the game? Do you think they are more mafia than town, too?

You, charloux, and now ali.

Pick 2 of those. 3 scum does not exist in one newbie.
And why me?

I think your vote on me was no natural and I think that your interaction with me is just you trying to push scum on me without actually having any content with regards to my alignment. The majority of my posting is in the last couple of pages and you said you only skimmed it, said that you agree with accountant's case more than mine, even though you only skimmed it, and now you're saying that I'm scum? Yeah right.

We have many lynches, I'm allowed to have 3. Do you want me to artificially RNG one of you three into town reads?

[nydushermain]

Oops double posted, sorry.

[nydushermain]

At this point, I just want anyone lynched for a role flip and then see what their interactions have been.

So 6/9 people are more town than mafia, and 3/9 people are more mafia than town. That suggests that you should be focusing on those 3 people and trying to interrogate them and get them lynched. Yet you are willing to lynch "anyone". Please justify this discrepancy.

Nope. I have a null read on DBW. Why am I willing to lynch anyone? Because you've almost single handedly made this game horribly unenjoyable for me.

1) If you're scum, kudos to you because you've convinced people that I'm scummy by saying "oh I don't believe he's actually doing this" and "oh he's not answering my question" when I've given you all my honest intent and answers.

2) If you're town, please change your playstyle in future games (which I will actively avoid being a part of) because quite honestly, you suck. And I don't mean you suck in a "you're a bad player" kind of way, but in a "I actually dislike you" kind of way. It feels like you're attacking me but ignoring all the facts and ignoring anything that I've done that can be even remotely be read as town and just going after anything that sounds scummy. Even if it means that you ignore a couple words in my quotes. You've even quoted my answer to you in a post where you ask me for an answer? WTF is wrong with you?

[nydushermain]

We have many lynches, I'm allowed to have 3. Do you want me to artificially RNG one of you three into town reads?

LOL. XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD.
You're gonna RNG them because what? They don't even matter to you at this point? Because you're scum and you don't care to scumhunt?

And dude, if you think I'm voting you because of Accountant, you are dead wrong. This post what made me go from "I'm not moving off Pep" to "lynch Nyd"

Can we just kill DBW and see what happens? I'm willing to be the hammer if there's a fourth vote.

The more you post the more you slip at this point.

First post is sarcasm nerd. Second post I've addressed.

[nydushermain]

And don't you dare say I'm not trying to scum hunt. In the midst of all this dumb chaos, I'm still trying to give my reads on other people.

[nydushermain]

Yeah...Sarcasm doesn't go well when you're the person that has the most attention on them right now.

Saying that an IC sucks is honestly disrespectful. You wanna know why you dislike him? Because he's on to you. He's experienced. He knows what you are doing and what you are trying to do.

You gave a stupid request so I gave you a stupid answer. Deal with it.

[nydushermain]

And like I said, these are my honest thoughts. People are just twisting them to just say "oh it's still from a scum perspective." So have fun. This is not something I can reason with.

[nydushermain]

-_____________________________________________________________________________________________-

I've given my thoughts on accountant potentially being town. If you're asking me to step back and reevaluate, reread the past couple of pages and see what's happening to me. I'm being attacked by people not willing to reevaluate at all and it's forcing me into a corner.

[nydushermain]

I've given my thoughts on accountant potentially being town. If you're asking me to step back and reevaluate, reread the past couple of pages and see what's happening to me. I'm being attacked by people not willing to reevaluate at all and it's forcing me into a corner.

Two things. A. If you are town, me and accountant will both be willing to work with you. But first work with us.
B. In some situations, you won't always get everyone to like you. Sometimes people will interact with you, and then they'll be like "you're fine" and keep your vote on you. This is not because they think you are town, moreso they think that you are the person they want to lynch. If you are town, then I would like to work with you on getting the person who I want to get lynched, well, lynched. Which is Pep. But if you're scum, you're doing fine.

Accountant has made it clear that he isn't willing to work with me. Look at anything he's said in the past like 50 posts. If you're town, I'll work with you but here's something I can say about you.

[nydushermain]

My reads goes as follows.
Scum: Pep
Other potential scum: Nyd, DBW, Charloux
Town: Ramcius, Mewtaph, Accountant, myself.

Pep has been lurking up to this point. And you may think it's due to inactivity, but I doubt that. Like he's posting in gaps, and if he was town, he's someone I'd expect to be more active and vocal. He's moreso reserved and safe leading up to his posts today. Also he shows no interest in scumhunting.
Not having anyone voted at this point in time tells me you have no real scum reads. This also goes for DBW, who's also lurking, except I don't know them. Either way I see them as a potential partner.
I can see Charloux being paired up with Pep easily. Charloux goes after lurkers but ignores Pep. This seems off to me.
As for Nyd, I'm following Accountant's reasoning and logic moreso then Nyd's on Accountant. Or they could just both be town, which I see happening.

It sounds like you have reasons why you think I could be town, as well as why I could be scum because if you thought I was scummy because of my early game like you claim, you'd just say straight up "I think that nydus is scum" rather than saying "I'm following accountant more than nyd atm." That's like leaving it up in the air so that scum!ali can easily just vote on me or defend me depending on town consensus.

[nydushermain]

Ya know what I said earlier about not hoping onto any other wagons? Yeah....About that...

Lynch Nyd today, lynch Pep tomorrow.

VOTE: nydushermain

Hey look, he's lining up votes.

#sarcasm

[nydushermain]

Ya know what I said earlier about not hoping onto any other wagons? Yeah....About that...

Lynch Nyd today, lynch Pep tomorrow.

VOTE: nydushermain

Hey look, he's lining up votes.

#sarcasm

My case is solid, is it not?

Just funny to me because the strongest case that accountant thinks he has on me is that I'm trying to "line up lynches."

[nydushermain]

I lightly town read pep, like I've said so I'm not working with you to lynch him unless he does something scummy enough to make me flip.

[nydushermain]

Pep has been lurking up to this point. And you may think it's due to inactivity, but I doubt that. Like he's posting in gaps, and if he was town, he's someone I'd expect to be more active and vocal. He's moreso reserved and safe leading up to his posts today. Also he shows no interest in scumhunting.
Not having anyone voted at this point in time tells me you have no real scum reads.

So none of this seems scummy to you?

OH GOD that's another thing I forgot to mention. You're reading pep for meta and I'm reading accountant partly for meta as well. Hypocrisy.

[nydushermain]

People have their reasons to lurk. I lurk a lot on video mafia because sometimes, I'm simply just bored or not in the mood. I don't read him scummy for lurking on day 1. You say you'd expect him to be more vocal but there could be reasons as to why he's not talking much. Maybe it's awfully close to the holidays and he's doing things related to family. Who knows? Until he gives his own response, how am I supposed to read him for that?

[nydushermain]

People have their reasons to lurk. I lurk a lot on video mafia because sometimes, I'm simply just bored or not in the mood. I don't read him scummy for lurking on day 1. You say you'd expect him to be more vocal but there could be reasons as to why he's not talking much. Maybe it's awfully close to the holidays and he's doing things related to family. Who knows? Until he gives his own response, how am I supposed to read him for that?

If he was busy with family there was nothing stopping him from asking V/LA
If you're simply bored and not in the mood that's anti-town. You have to commit to mafia games you play.

It's anti town I agree to just sit back and do almost nothing but that doesn't mean he's mafia. There were 3 people lurking (imo) in him, DBW, and VVsomething. There's only 2 mafia so lurking is clearly NAI.

[nydushermain]

I believe that what Accountant is doing is provoking people to show there true self. Questions in mafia are not asked for people to get answers but to see reactions. Ways they answer are hints to who they are. Tho this can also be used as a great protection. Xe almost talks like all his actions till this point are all made in the benefit of town. While other members are showing some motives and are even demonstating there playstyles, Accountant is being calm and collected, asking questions and then leaving them at that, without taking actions or persuing people who he belives are not town to further pressure them.

What is your definition of scumhunting and how do you go about it?
To me this seems like you don't want people to scumhunt, because asking questions is the easiest method to doing so.

Yes, dear old (not) friend (Don't take this as anything personal other people, I just know this little cracker and I'm mad he joined my game lol) I do want people to scumhunt. It's the only way to catch scum. Each person SH little or less (town or mafia). Tho the diffrence is what they do with the gathered information. I belive that Accountant didn't really do anything with the information. By his words he just got it so he can learn with the help of this information the alliance of people. When you read more you will see I'm not saying that since asking questions is the easiest way it should not be done or is considered scummy to me. I'm talking about the way he used the information to the benefit of town or his so called scumhunting. That is why I'm continuesly going against him.

Link me where you "continuously go against him" because I don't see it.

[nydushermain]

Also what? You've been reading this WHOLE time?

[nydushermain]

I belive you passivness and overall neutral behaviur comes from a well collected scum thinking.

Why not a well-collected town thinking?

Because why would town play like that? You are already putting your name more then enough, since you have been the most active player till now and if you are town you are gonna be an obvious target. In your situation it would be more beneficial if you actually standed out and really started pushing every botton and going against every possible Scum. On the other side you could be mafia and deluding us of actualy doing anything by asking questions but in a sence not doing anything with the information you've gathered. And now after you see you have people that belive you, you started being a bit more offensive on Ny. Thats is what's concerning me. I don't see your clear Town persona that you are really trying to force on us.

That's factually incorrect. The three people mainly going against me were accountant, ramcius, and then alisae. Accountant voted on me first AND accused me first. So you can't say that accountant is scum for going on the offensive "after people started believing him" because he went on the offensive before that. I agree though that I think accountant is doing NOTHING with the information that he is gathering, or to be clearer, is refusing to take in the information.

[nydushermain]

Also what? You've been reading this WHOLE time?

He's catching up and responding to earlier posts. I don't think he actually got to the part where I announced I catched up.

Odd because if he's catching up and responding to earlier posts, why is he reading the current thread? Doesn't really look like he's diving back in time.

[nydushermain]

Also what? You've been reading this WHOLE time?

He's catching up and responding to earlier posts. I don't think he actually got to the part where I announced I catched up.

Odd because if he's catching up and responding to earlier posts, why is he reading the current thread? Doesn't really look like he's diving back in time.

I'm sorry, can you rephrase the question. Like, rephrase the question as if you were speaking to a toddler. This seems really confusing to me.

If he's looking back through the thread, and trying to catch up, I think it's interesting that he responded almost instantly to you calling him out. I think he might just be sitting back and waiting to see how the situation transpires. If he's really looking back and trying to catch up, and taking notes, etc., he shouldn't be constantly refreshing the current thread. He's lurking with a purpose.

[nydushermain]

I'll let you give a better set of reads.

[nydushermain]

@ali, because he responded really quickly

[nydushermain]

I explained everything. Go read again Ramcius.

[nydushermain]

Like I said, I didn't pay much attention to alisa intially.

[nydushermain]

VOTE: Nys

You say you would lynch DBW, but you not voting him yet, you said you would hammer, if there was 4th vote, but ignore Alisa saying same few posts ago, so who stopped you do 4th and Alisa hammer? You talk much, but i can't see any actual town motivation in your actions, and i'm not conf bias on you, i pointed things i didn't liked in you, yet instead of explaining, you tried dodge with "town can do it too, not just scum", now OMGUS on Alisa not makes you look good at all

Pep, i'm still waiting you start doing your glorious scumhunt, we hear so much, yet we have to see, and if you forgot, it was you, who attacked me, not other way, so don't pretend offended now

Also I have a preference of lynches. If I'm going to be the hammer on DBW, who I'm alright lynching, I'll be the hammer but I'm not going to be the one to push that lynch to go through when there's a chance to lynch someone I want to lynch more. If enough people think that DBW, someone who I don't town read, should be the lynch for today, I'm not going to stand in the way. Now try to lynch one of my town reads and I'll fight you hard.

[nydushermain]

Welcome to the wagon Ramcius! We're happy to have you. That's L-2 btw. If you're ever gonna make a lynch L-2 or L-1, it's better to say it. It's a nice habbit to get into.

Ramicus your thoughts on the case I presented on Pep?

So since you're doing more than accountant in trying to get a wagon on me, what happens when I flip town? Do you ignore my reads completely and lynch pep tomorrow? Do you agree with my reads and lynch accountant? You say that you agree with accountant's case more than mine, but what happens when I flip town and it turns out that accountant's case is obviously wrong?

[nydushermain]

So I'm still trying to get reads and my reads are updating. Accountant on the other hand has ONLY gone on me except when asked about other people. ONLY WHEN ASKED. So tell me again why I'm being anti-town. I've answered every question that people have asked me, and in the midst of all this, I AM STILL trying to read people.

[nydushermain]

I think being anti-town is not actually trying to play the game. I think that being anti-town is not being willing to reevaluate the game. I think being anti-town is playing against town win condition, such as voting on someone you think is town for trolls.

I think that not playing the game is anti-town, but not necessarily scummy. Lurking is not necessarily scummy. For example, if you're town alisae, you replaced someone who was being anti town out of inactivity. Should I just assume you're scum because of your predecessor's inaction? (could actually be right though heh). Scum can reevaluate, they can also just tunnel like crazy. I think that flow is important though. Sometimes it seems opportunistic to change how you read someone, sometimes it seems like a read came out of nowhere or from a nontowny perspective. There's overlap, and then there's NAI.

[nydushermain]

Anti-town is accountant saying that no matter what I do, "oh it comes from a scummy perspective" even though it seems like he's not against things I say potentially coming from a towny perspective. To him, this should literally be a 50/50 if he looked at things unobjectively, but instead, he chose one and is sticking with it even though nothing really leads to me being scum from what I've read of his accusations.

[nydushermain]

Why are you so afraid of giving me a yes or no answer?

I will admit that refusing to answer is pretty suspicious.

Did I not answer? Do you really believe that I didn't give an answer to the question he asked??

[nydushermain]

No, I want the answer from you because YOU'RE the one calling me anti-town.

[nydushermain]

If I'm town, do you think that accountant's actions have been pro town at all?

[nydushermain]

I belive you passivness and overall neutral behaviur comes from a well collected scum thinking.

Why not a well-collected town thinking?

Because why would town play like that? You are already putting your name more then enough, since you have been the most active player till now and if you are town you are gonna be an obvious target. In your situation it would be more beneficial if you actually standed out and really started pushing every botton and going against every possible Scum. On the other side you could be mafia and deluding us of actualy doing anything by asking questions but in a sence not doing anything with the information you've gathered. And now after you see you have people that belive you, you started being a bit more offensive on Ny. Thats is what's concerning me. I don't see your clear Town persona that you are really trying to force on us.

That's factually incorrect. The three people mainly going against me were accountant, ramcius, and then alisae. Accountant voted on me first AND accused me first. So you can't say that accountant is scum for going on the offensive "after people started believing him" because he went on the offensive before that. I agree though that I think accountant is doing NOTHING with the information that he is gathering, or to be clearer, is refusing to take in the information.

No I mean he knew that people belived he was town, so he got more confident in going against you. It just seemed strange. From that point onward he has seemed more aggressive and does want to lynch you. I also cannot not see that Alis has almost not talked about Accountant and does seems to agree with everything he does and even tho he seems to have me for his prime target for absoulutely laughable reasons he goes against the target of Accountant. He does also start being cocky and being a bitch which for me has no place in a mafia game.

Agreed with the last sentence. I refrained from calling him a bitch but the cat's out of the bag now.

[nydushermain]

Nope. I have a null read on DBW. Why am I willing to lynch anyone? Because you've almost single handedly made this game horribly unenjoyable for me.

1) If you're scum, kudos to you because you've convinced people that I'm scummy by saying "oh I don't believe he's actually doing this" and "oh he's not answering my question" when I've given you all my honest intent and answers.

2) If you're town, please change your playstyle in future games (which I will actively avoid being a part of) because quite honestly, you suck. And I don't mean you suck in a "you're a bad player" kind of way, but in a "I actually dislike you" kind of way. It feels like you're attacking me but ignoring all the facts and ignoring anything that I've done that can be even remotely be read as town and just going after anything that sounds scummy. Even if it means that you ignore a couple words in my quotes. You've even quoted my answer to you in a post where you ask me for an answer? WTF is wrong with you?

So, I'm going to preface that if you think I'm an exceptionally abusive IC or if you think I'm being so toxic that it makes the game unfun for you, please PM Mina with a complaint. It's my job to make the game civil and a good introduction to mafia, so if you're having a very unenjoyable time then I'm clearly doing something wrong. I apologize for that. However, I still have to play to my win condition, and that means I will definitely follow up on all the inconsistencies I find scummy. If that's very unenjoyable to you, it's a necessary evil in the game of mafia.

1) That is not why you are willing to lynch anyone. You said something along the lines of "oh, I might be wrong, so I guess it's fine to lynch anyone" - that means you were okay to lynch anyone because you didn't have confidence in your reads. You also mentioned that you wanted to look at flips and interactions, which makes sense paired with a lack of confidence about reads - after all, with more information, you can get better, stronger reads. But now you come and tell me it's because you think the game is unenjoyable. That's a big contradiction right there.

2) It's an objective fact that I've asked you for a yes or no answer and you dragged your feet and took two pages to come out and say "yes". I don't think I'm unreasonable in saying that you're not answering my question in that case.

3) I'm sorry that you dislike me, but I disagree here. I've clearly explained exactly what I find scummy about you. Yes, maybe you do something townie elsewhere - but even then it won't change the fact that you did have lots of inconsistencies, that you have been very evasive(which is an opinion that is not exclusive to me, btw) and that you have spent more time complaining about me witch-hunting you than justifying yourself. When I ask you a yes-or-no question, I expect an answer of "yes" or "no". Not "leaning scum". "Leaning scum" is not a "yes", and it is not a "no". Therefore I do not count that is an actual answer.

1) No, when I said I might be wrong on people so I'm fine lynching people who are in my null to mafia reads. Then I said I'll lynch whoever the fuck because I feel like I'm painted in a dumb corner and it's not fun at all.

2) When you ask me "Do you think I'm more mafia or town" and I said you're leaning scum, that literally means that I think you're more mafia than town. Obviously? Why do I need to say yes or no when I've already given my stance? It's literally synonymous.

3) I'm pretty sure I've answered every question. If you can point to questions that have not been answered at all, then I'll answer them now because I don't remember any.

4) The reason why the game is unenjoyable is because you've pushed on me so hard with what I think is very little justification. I feel like you just flipped a town or scum coin on me and it landed on scum. It has nothing to do with you being an IC, and I don't think you're being rude or anything. You've been civil but I think that your scumhunting playstyle is horrendous if you're town.

[nydushermain]

Accountant has made it clear that he isn't willing to work with me.

Yes. I am not willing to work with someone I think is scum. I am not willing to let up pressure on someone who has responded very poorly to pressure, and who - I repeat - I think is a member of the mafia and actively working to subvert and destroy the town. Do you think that's very unreasonable?

I think that you don't realize that I've been in a 2-3 vs 1 this whole time and I'm posting everything in the heat of the moment. Do you expect me to respond beautifully?

[nydushermain]

Why are you so afraid of giving me a yes or no answer?

I will admit that refusing to answer is pretty suspicious.

Did I not answer? Do you really believe that I didn't give an answer to the question he asked??

You haven't given him a clear answer. If you think he is leaning to scum, you answer should still be scum. If you say town, then you are basically either super dumb or confirmed mafia. So this question was important and is really why they are going against you. And tbh, even tho I have my points to still think you are a pretty sure town, in the end you not answering this question could be desisive for my lynch as well.

Because he's trying to force me to make a stance of him being mafia or town and I'm not sure. As it was standing, I said that he was leaning scum because that's where he was but he was insistent that I have to make up a read and say with hard alignment, town or scum. That's dumb and anti-town.

[nydushermain]

Anti-town is accountant saying that no matter what I do, "oh it comes from a scummy perspective" even though it seems like he's not against things I say potentially coming from a towny perspective. To him, this should literally be a 50/50 if he looked at things unobjectively, but instead, he chose one and is sticking with it even though nothing really leads to me being scum from what I've read of his accusations.

There's no possible townie perspective in lying about your motivations, as I highlighted in my earlier posts. Also, I haven't said anything about scummy perspectives for the last 50 posts. My last 50 posts have been nailing you on your inconsistency between reads and actions.

No, you're not actually reading what I'm saying and understanding why I think certain things. You read my answer and arbitrarily just say "nope I'm right"

[nydushermain]

1) No, when I said I might be wrong on people so I'm fine lynching people who are in my null to mafia reads. Then I said I'll lynch whoever the fuck because I feel like I'm painted in a dumb corner and it's not fun at all.

2) When you ask me "Do you think I'm more mafia or town" and I said you're leaning scum, that literally means that I think you're more mafia than town. Obviously? Why do I need to say yes or no when I've already given my stance? It's literally synonymous.

3) I'm pretty sure I've answered every question. If you can point to questions that have not been answered at all, then I'll answer them now because I don't remember any.

4) The reason why the game is unenjoyable is because you've pushed on me so hard with what I think is very little justification. I feel like you just flipped a town or scum coin on me and it landed on scum. It has nothing to do with you being an IC, and I don't think you're being rude or anything. You've been civil but I think that your scumhunting playstyle is horrendous if you're town.

1) That makes no sense. Thinking that you might be wrong on people does not equate to you lynching randomly. Otherwise you don't really read someone as more scummy than another person - you say with your mouth that they're scummy, but when it comes down to it you're content with giving them the exact same treatment as you do with someone who is merely null. Your actions do not match up with your words at all.

2) No. You could claim later that you were only "leaning" scum and didn't truly believe it. I'm trying to pin you down into a concrete view so I can hold it against you later and you can't keep changing your mind and twisting your own words. If you were truly town who was frustrated that I kept accusing you of not answering, you'd definitely want me to stop accusing you, and the easiest way to do that is to answer. Instead, you evaded and got into an argument. That makes no sense.

3) Unfortunately, getting pushed for reasons you disagree with is part and parcel of the game.

1) Yup. I said it but if my strong town reads were voted on, I'd probably fight it. Heat of the moment.

2) You know that list of reads I gave that you asked me about? If you think I'm scum and want to hold me against something, why not just refer to that? I clearly have you as scum in there.

3) Yes, agreed that I'm getting pushed for things that I disagree with but you also disagree with me. Give me examples of places where I am all evasive and I'll give a hard stance on whatever it is unless I literally don't have one. I'll lie for you and if anyone is leaning one way or another, I'll just say they're confirmed town or scum. If they're null reads, I'll flip a coin.

[nydushermain]

Okay I think we're talking past each other a little bit at this point.

Let me summarize my case.

WHY IS NYDUSHER SCUM:
- lines up lynches
- says he wants to lynch me over DBW but looks like he doesn't really care
- tries to pass off what is essentially a gut read as a legitimate read

Now, your turn.

1) I've already explained that saying lynch ____ then ____ then ____ is one way of listing your scum reads in order in video mafia but you ignored that.

2) I already explained to you that I want to lynch you over DBW but I was okay with a lynch on someone who wasn't in my town reads.

3) I explained to you that it was a legitimate read, started turning into ALSO a gut read.

Now show me your counterpoints other than "nah I think you could still do that as scum" because that's all I'm seeing from you

[nydushermain]

Pep, I'm just gonna interpret that as an OMGUS vote. Also the fact that I'm not defending myself from your accusations makes me think you're even more scummy then you already are. Who says I have to defend myself if I think scum is attacking me?
And instead of voting me, you could be civil and coperative and give me the reasons instead of making me ISO you for it.
And generally most people include themselves as town. That's just natural and good play.

What are you talking about? Why wouldn't you defend yourself? What if he's town? This is anti-town if you are town FYI. You're so blinded that you replace into a game, skim through a few posts and call someone scum and instead of trying to refute a point that someone makes against you, you just call them scummy and say nothing? You're ACTUALLY avoiding the question with zero answer, not a half answer like mine apparently.

[nydushermain]

I'm still waiting for you to explain what was so anti-town about me that you felt the need to point it out in me versus what accountant was doing.

[nydushermain]

Pep, I'm just gonna interpret that as an OMGUS vote. Also the fact that I'm not defending myself from your accusations makes me think you're even more scummy then you already are. Who says I have to defend myself if I think scum is attacking me?
And instead of voting me, you could be civil and coperative and give me the reasons instead of making me ISO you for it.
And generally most people include themselves as town. That's just natural and good play.

What are you talking about? Why wouldn't you defend yourself? What if he's town? This is anti-town if you are town FYI. You're so blinded that you replace into a game, skim through a few posts and call someone scum and instead of trying to refute a point that someone makes against you, you just call them scummy and say nothing? You're ACTUALLY avoiding the question with zero answer, not a half answer like mine apparently.

If scum is attacking me, why would I argue with them? At the end of the day they're still gonna wanna lynch me.

Also, If town had a question they wanted me to answer so badly, they would ask it again and/or redirect me to the post in which they asked it. He's overeacting because I didn't answer it.

Also Pep, you're chainsawing yourself and Nyd.

Do you think you have the game solved the moment you replace? That's absurd if you're that cocky and you need to take a step back and look at whatever you're doing in life. Do you have a red check on pep? Do you think he's 100% scum? What about the fact that he said that he wasn't posting because of health issues? Is that not something to consider?

[nydushermain]

Here's a question for you. Why do you read accountant town?

[nydushermain]

That was directed to alisae

[nydushermain]

Pep, I'm just gonna interpret that as an OMGUS vote. Also the fact that I'm not defending myself from your accusations makes me think you're even more scummy then you already are. Who says I have to defend myself if I think scum is attacking me?
And instead of voting me, you could be civil and coperative and give me the reasons instead of making me ISO you for it.
And generally most people include themselves as town. That's just natural and good play.

What are you talking about? Why wouldn't you defend yourself? What if he's town? This is anti-town if you are town FYI. You're so blinded that you replace into a game, skim through a few posts and call someone scum and instead of trying to refute a point that someone makes against you, you just call them scummy and say nothing? You're ACTUALLY avoiding the question with zero answer, not a half answer like mine apparently.

If scum is attacking me, why would I argue with them? At the end of the day they're still gonna wanna lynch me.

Also, If town had a question they wanted me to answer so badly, they would ask it again and/or redirect me to the post in which they asked it. He's overeacting because I didn't answer it.

Also Pep, you're chainsawing yourself and Nyd.

Do you think you have the game solved the moment you replace? That's absurd if you're that cocky and you need to take a step back and look at whatever you're doing in life. Do you have a red check on pep? Do you think he's 100% scum? What about the fact that he said that he wasn't posting because of health issues? Is that not something to consider?

I actually didn't have it solved at all when I replaced in. I just read the thread, found one scum, and then watched you flail and found another. You solved the game for me if you're scum.

If he was posting due to health issues, I feel as if it would have been in his best interest to say so. But fine, if you're saying I can't harp on him for it then simply put I won't.
Also you're chainsawing Pep.

Also Accountant to me is town due to PoE and he seemed as if he was genuinely trying to solve the game.

If chainsawing means that I'm burying pep because I'm defending him, you're asinine. I don't give a flipping **** what your opinion on him is at the moment because I am not mafia. Saying that I'm somehow scum with him or whatever the **** you're trying to say doesn't mean anything to me. All it says is that you're lining up lynches for the next day and it doesn't matter what either of us flip.

[nydushermain]

Do you think that as mafia, I'd be so angry and salty? Because you said that this is coming off as anger and salt.

[nydushermain]

What I mean by chainsawing is that you are defending another player by attacking them.

And as scum, currently right now It could be. It could also be read as genuine frustration, but we've gone a bit too far for that to be possible. Not to mention you slipped multiple times.
Honestly when I'm under pressure, I panic a lot because if I feel as if the pressure is hard enough when I'm town, I dunno how to handle that. It's very possible. It's also something you'll learn to overcome as you learn more and become more experienced. I'm still learning. I'm trying to learn how to deal with pressure.

Tell me where I've "slipped"

[nydushermain]

And what do you mean, it's gone a bit too far for that to be possible. And you're saying that you think I could be town because you yourself don't know how to deal with pressure when you're town? Think about my perspective where I have three of the most active players (which I throw you into because you pretty much are which is sad for a replacement) are ganging up on me?

[nydushermain]

First off, your feelings, like one saying you hate the IC is a slip. It shows that you've been caught.

We have many lynches, I'm allowed to have 3. Do you want me to artificially RNG one of you three into town reads?

This shows that you don't really care about your scum reads because you have no interest in scum hunting. Another slip.
And the fact you even just wanted DBW hammered as soon as possible is another slip.

And asking me to think about it in your perspective is AtE.
The pressure thing was to help you understand that we aren't all perfect players, there are things we need to work on, and over time we'll get better at the game. It has nothing to do with this current game. Becuase qutie frankly you stoppped convincing me that Accountant is scum a long time ago. So I feel as if there is no real pressure on me at the moment. There is a ton of pressure on you, and right now you are freaking out.

1) Saying that I hate the IC is a slip if I'm scum. Can I not also say it as town? You're just assuming I slipped because you think I'm scum but you're ignoring the converse.

2) I already told you that I was being sarcastic. Did you ignore my response? No, you acknowledged it because you said that sarcasm shouldn't be used when the attention is on me. So how is that a slip? I do care about my scum reads but I'm not going to limit it to 2 because I'm not blessed with the arrogance that you seem to have in thinking that I am 100% right on all my reads.

3) I didn't say I wanted DBW hammered as soon as possible. Also, he's not in my townreads so I'm okay lynching him.

4) Yes I'm freaking out because I feel like everyone is ignoring what I'm doing and just painting everything from a scum perspective which is stupid because I'm town.

Everything you call a "slip" could be, and was done by a town.

[nydushermain]

If you disagree with anything I said, refute it so I can talk about it some more. If you still think I'm scum, point out other places where I've "slipped" because to me, it doesn't seem like your read on me has any foundation.

[nydushermain]

Your points have been refuted @alisae so try harder if that's how you're going to end things.

[nydushermain]

No I'm not overeacting. But we are making such a big deal since nys didn't answer a question which I admit has truth to it, but you think that it is more then well to not try and counter my accusation? Why is that?
My vote is is not OMGUS. I have my suspicions on me. Gonna explain them again since clearly you weren't paying enough attention.

First you came in and started going trough posts. Most of the were either pointless in my opinion or post directly against me. During several pages you were just trying to collect enough arguments to get a solid reason to lynch me. Didn't you say that is exactly what mafia liked. But yet, you couldn't really get solid reasons since I hadn't given enough material to work on till then. All you could do was line up that since I wasn't active enough and I usually am, I'm definetely scum. Also me apperantly not scumhunting is also making me scum. Okay tell me what if I don't necessarily scumhunt. Then I'm 100% scum? What If I'm gathering information about the people who are more active and then like what I did come in and start a push against them? Yes, this is not exactly what happened with me, since reasons I have explained but still it is a possibility. Also for me a good scum will definetely be scumhunting since it is good for his discuise. His goal will obviously be to get a misslynch on Town but this doesn't change the fact he is scum. So having me not scumhunting as one of your leading arguments for a lynch is also dumb. Your next argument is that I haven't lynched anybody yet? Even if I didn't lynch you it's again pretty dumb argument.

On the other side you didn't say anything on Accountant. You just instantly became his best partner and was even ready to give up on your personal target (me) to go after his which was already pretty pressured by Accountant (Ny). Even if Accountant is town this is pretty scummy since I'm more and more leaning on having ny as a sure town. Also you going all cocky on the guy after seing that he clearly got frustarted is just a really dissrespectfull and definetely not a town action.

This is why I lynched you. Overall I think I have a better base for a lynch then you

The not voting one is kinda big as well because to be 13 pages within the game and not have atleast 1 or 2 scum picks that you want to lynch looks bad. 13 pages day 1 is a lot for a newbie game. So is 20.

You not scumhunting means that you're not trying to make an effort to blend in with the town. You're not trying to look town. Therefore you look scummy.

Accountant didn't pressure me, Nyd basicly said "I just want to lynch this person" without voting them and that caused me to switch wagons.

Going to bed now so the other people can catch up. For those who see this as the latest post, Nyd basicly flailed for 7 pages straight.

So about the "I just want to lynch this person without voting them" thing, after having double teamed for like 5+ pages, I just wanted the stupid day to be over with. And VOILA, a null read is on the chopping block. Cool, let's just lynch this person and see whatever he flips so I can adjust reads accordingly and actually have some solid information other than me guessing who is scum. You don't think I'm tired of just being attacked with what I feel are repeated questions that have been answered before they even asked them?

[nydushermain]

In the case that I wake up and I'm dead,

I think that ramcius has the highest chance of flipping town and then mewtaph after that. Ignore the light town reads I've given on gamma and pep because I scum read a lot of things gamma has done before he started defending me and I think pep is starting to sound odd the more I reread his posts. Ignore my read on alisae because it could just be a passion read. I think that charloux and accountant are the scummiest. I tried to rebuild a case in the midst of all this on accountant by going through his past threads but I think that his play isn't actually all too different from this current one. It fluctuates. I still find it incredibly frustrating that he won't try to reevaluate at all. If forum players care about dead player reads at all, lynch charloux the next day, don't donk it up just because people forced some sort of 1v1 which could still be TvT.

Good night.

[nydushermain]

I'm awake, took several naps during the day and I think I've cleared my mind. And I'm alive woo. Where did my wagon go?

[nydushermain]

I don't think alisae is the lynch for today. I think that the way he took control of the wagon on me or at least tried to is kinda towny. Now ya'll don't know that I'm town and that's fine but in my perspective, it feels really weird for alisae to be scum because it's just incriminating to just join a game as a replacement, and then immediately go hyper aggro on a town that could very well be lynched that day. And to be practically taking a huge chunk of the credit? That's not really scum play in my opinion. I think that alisae just has an inflated ego but is town.

Accountant, if you're town, I'll suck your dick post game.

Not actually a huge fan of pepchoninga but I'll have to reread his posts to see if my dislike of him has any merit.

I think it's ironic but I'll say it straight up, I think that a DBW lynch isn't bad here and I'll take all credit for him dying if he flips town if people are willing to follow me into it.

If not DBW, I think charloux is an interesting place to look but he kind of tugged at my heartstrings a little bit in his last post.

Also, @alisae, saying that it's scummy for me to lack confidence in my survival, I wasn't sure if I'd live or not. I didn't make a list of people who liked or disliked me and I had no idea what people's time zones were so I could very well just wake up and people could be dead. I don't think you've addressed any other "slip" I've made either so I'd like you to either refute my refutations or come up with new ones.

VOTE: DBW

[nydushermain]

Used wrong code T.T

VOTE: DBW

[nydushermain]

I read through a couple of D1s that accountant has been a part of. In one of them, someone got 5 votes by day 2 without him being able to retaliate. On another, I believe jailerkeeper got lynched over night.

[nydushermain]

Alisae I want you to build a stronger case on me if you can. If you can ONLY say that I'm scum for that one comment I made, because I feel like I've refuted your other points, I can't really believe that you think I'm scum. As it stands, I think you're town and I still want a lynch on DBW over you. FYI, not joining this wagon because I'm pretty sure he's just cocky arrogant town.

[nydushermain]

@ny why do you want a stronger case on you? That is not pro-town.

Because I feel the same way as accountant in a way that the sudden push on me felt unnatural and if that one comment is the main thing to think I'm scum when I've explained my reason for saying it, I just don't believe that he genuinely believes I'm scum. If he can actually make a case for me which I believe to be coming from a townie perspective, then I think I can read alisae better.

Alright Nyd, I'ma go take a shower and writing a stronger case on you. For the meanwhile talk to me, what do you think of Gamma's reason to hop on the Pep wagon? What seemed town to you about Pep's play? Why do you still want to lynch DBW over Pep? Why would you want to lynch someone you feel like is town (refering to lynching DBW over me who you just said so yourself is town)?
Unless you don't wanna bus your partner that is.

If I'm right, gamma just gave a vague reason for voting on pep? So I'm not sure what to really think about that.

What I thought was towny of pep was something he did early I think (not sure if this is the case). Anyways, I also liked that he was defending me but after rereading, I realize that it might be scum!pep defending me to chainsaw himself.

I never said pep was mafia. DBW just seems like the way the lynch should go today tbh.

I never said DBW was town either, I said that pep was initially townie to me.

[nydushermain]

And I just noticed that DBW only has 8 posts...This bothers me...A lot. I still want to stick with my day 1 lynch on Pep, but I'ma go re-evaluate him. Maybe Nyd is actually town. I need to re-evaluate these two.

Fun question:
Pep, DBW, Nyd. What do you three think of the other two on the list?

Sorry, what list?

[nydushermain]

What I thought was towny of pep was something he did early I think (not sure if this is the case). Anyways, I also liked that he was defending me but after rereading, I realize that it might be scum!pep defending me to chainsaw himself.

I never said pep was mafia. DBW just seems like the way the lynch should go today tbh.

I never said DBW was town either, I said that pep was initially townie to me.

What did Pep do early?
I never that you said that Pep was maf, I'm asking why do you want to lynch DBW over Pep.
And I never said that you said that DBW is town. You said that I was town, so if you think that I am town, why would you want to consider lynching me?

I don't think I've really given DBW much thought due to low post count. The posts that I have seen of him though I haven't really considered them to be alignment indicative.

Pep I thought was townie because he came to the conclusion that accountant was scummy based on a similar reason to mine. It didn't seem like a sheep either so we were thinking the same way.

I don't really want to lynch you?

[nydushermain]

Also Nyd, let me ask you another question. As scum, what is your opinion in bussing your partner? Have you ever done it before?

In video mafia yes. I don't think I've ever rolled scum on forum before though. I would never bus a partner if I only had 1 though unless it was a LYLO/MYLO situation.

[nydushermain]

^ or if I know my partner isn't getting lynched

[nydushermain]

Pep I thought was townie because he came to the conclusion that accountant was scummy based on a similar reason to mine. It didn't seem like a sheep either so we were thinking the same way.

Do you think Pep is trying to buddy you?

I could definitely see scum!pep doing it, not because he's trying to buddy me, but because you're going after him. I see like this kind of strategy where if he defends me successfully, he's always behind me in the lynch list if the fight between me and accountant continues. I dunno, it's a dumb answer I think because that's me saying it under the assumption that he's scum where if I assume he's town, he could just be defending me because of a scum read on you and accountant who were at the time attacking me.

[nydushermain]

Yeah! I have a question.

What mostly made me switch from "Hey, stop fighting" to "You're scum" is this post.

Can we just kill DBW and see what happens? I'm willing to be the hammer if there's a fourth vote.

How does this seem town or even null to you?

Also, why would scum me be grilling Pep and Nyd as hard as I am?
Also why would scum me stop pushing Nyd now, cause currently I much rather push a Pep lynch then a nyd lynch.

It's a really wonky post, but I think that's just the way nyd plays. It's consistent with how I would expect him to act if he's town. It's not even his scummiest post so far - I've felt that way before myself as town. I don't see why this one post made him skyrocket in your reads.

Where is Mewtaph?

It made me skyrocket because at this point it just seemed like he wanted you to get off his tail. Like he didn't know how to actually fight against you.

Actually both are true. I definitely wanted pressure off me because it was irritating me because I didn't feel like the pressure was just. I also have zero idea how to push a lynch in forum mafia. You're not reading my intent correctly, but not my alignment. I think you're probably town as I've stated before.

[nydushermain]

Yeah! I have a question.

What mostly made me switch from "Hey, stop fighting" to "You're scum" is this post.

Can we just kill DBW and see what happens? I'm willing to be the hammer if there's a fourth vote.

How does this seem town or even null to you?

Also, why would scum me be grilling Pep and Nyd as hard as I am?
Also why would scum me stop pushing Nyd now, cause currently I much rather push a Pep lynch then a nyd lynch.

It's a really wonky post, but I think that's just the way nyd plays. It's consistent with how I would expect him to act if he's town. It's not even his scummiest post so far - I've felt that way before myself as town. I don't see why this one post made him skyrocket in your reads.

Where is Mewtaph?

It made me skyrocket because at this point it just seemed like he wanted you to get off his tail. Like he didn't know how to actually fight against you.

Actually both are true. I definitely wanted pressure off me because it was irritating me because I didn't feel like the pressure was just. I also have zero idea how to push a lynch in forum mafia. You're not reading my intent correctly, but not my alignment. I think you're probably town as I've stated before.

Sorry I misspoke here. I meant, you're reading my intent correctly but not my alignment.

[nydushermain]

I think he's trying to convey that he believes Pep is trying to remain in the shadows by keeping ny-Accountant at the forefront.

Ah okay, yeah I am just going crazy in that case.

Also Nyd, why are you self-analyzing yourself? It's very off putting.

I'm not self analyzing. I'm giving you my thoughts.

I think he's trying to convey that he believes Pep is trying to remain in the shadows by keeping ny-Accountant at the forefront.

This.

[nydushermain]

Yo ny are you down wkth voting Pepcho?

Yeah I'd be okay with it. I don't town read him. I still think DBW is better though. Can we get a vote count?

[nydushermain]

Accountant he hasn't posted on the thread within 2 days. If anything he'll just get a prod from the mod.

Accountant he hasn't posted on the thread within 2 days. If anything he'll just get a prod from the mod.

Mewtaph has been prodded.

rofl

[nydushermain]

Nyd come join the Pep wagon! We have a nice, comfy seat for ya.

Go away vile temptress! I'd like to note that DBW hasn't even voted anyone yet.

VOTE: pep[/unvote]

[nydushermain]

... I'm horrible at this.

VOTE: pep

[nydushermain]

This seat isn't actually that comfortable. You lied.

VOTE: DBW

[nydushermain]

It was musical chairs for a while and gamma took my lazyboy

[nydushermain]

I'm not. I'd just feel guilty if the person defending me flipped town.

[nydushermain]

@alisae can you try to make a case on me? I still don't have anything from you or direct me to the post I missed. You keep calling me scum but I don't really think you have any reason?

[nydushermain]

@alisae can you try to make a case on me? I still don't have anything from you or direct me to the post I missed. You keep calling me scum but I don't really think you have any reason?

I'm not trying to lynch you. At this point, I rather lynch Pep. With that said, a few questions.
A. Why are you giving me a bunch of busy work?
B. Why are you trying to get my attention away from Pep?

Also not a pro-town thing to ask.

I'm not trying to get your attention away from Pep. That's a weird question because why would I be trying to get attention on me instead of him? What I'm trying to do is see if you actually think I'm potential scum. If you can't answer, I can't help but say that you're potential scum as well. It kinda feels like you're trying your best to avoid me right now which is turning me off. I do feel that you are town but something I look for in a town is their ability to scum hunt. If you just say that I'm potential scum and constantly put me in a potential partner world with pep, give me something to make me believe that you actually believe I'm scum.

[nydushermain]

I found this while re-reading your ISO.

I think that an accountant wagon would be good and maybe it doesn't have enough traction with just 1 person on it (me) so I think pepchoninga, if you voted on him, it would be very helpful.

WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS SHIT

If you keep reading in my ISO or before that, the reason is because pep read accountant scum for the same reason I did.

[nydushermain]

I really don't think alisae should be the lynch for today. Even in a 1v1, he has to be up against like ramcius for me to vote him.

[nydushermain]

Did I respond to this yet? I don't remember.

In early game Nyd gave his readlists. This is seen in 23. These reads to me are super early and seem forced to me as if he's trying to pull a lot of effort to blend in. Also find it kind of interesting that this is the only time he actually posts reads until 296 not including saying that people are scummy or they're acting like town etc.
Also in 157 he calls out Accountant on his playstyle. And I honestly don't like this.

Saying someone is scummy or towny is my way of posting reads. Granted, I never posted a big list again until the future. You can say you don't like it, and I can see why but it was my way of scum hunting.

This is a fun one. 160
This is a very strange post. Let's take a look at it tho.
The person he is talking to is Pep.
Pep hasn't shown any signs of acitivty since his last posts, it was a few posts after this that he was prodded. Also Pep did not have a vote at the time.
The part that's strange here is this: He's only asking Pep.
It's like he doesn't care to convince everyone else at the time.
If Nyd is scum, I think he may have just sold out his scum budddy.

I said it before, pep was the person who shared my read on accountant. Other people who said accountant was potentially scummy, etc., didn't have similar reasoning so it didn't matter as much.

in 167 he admits to lieing which at that point is a policy lynch. Town have no reason to lie.

How's that a policy lynch? Scum have no reason to admit to it. Do you think that what I wrote before admitting to lying was scummy? Do I have a reason to correct that?

195 is interesting. He's looking into Accountant trying to find something on him. He really wants to try to find a vote that is justified on him. He is so determined to try to find this justified vote in Accountant's playstyle that he is digging through multiple games of his just to find something similar between the games he can pin Accountant on.

What if I told you, I thought he was so scummy that I decided to see how he played in past games to see if I could dig something up on meta? Especially since he's the IC meaning he probably has a lot of past games on this site.

I am agreeing with Accountant on that his earlier interactions with Nyd about DBW is interesting to me. He's pinning Nyd as someone who wants to be read as town but also wants to sheep on lurker wagons. I totally agree with the fact that it doesn't really look like he cares. Post 352 shows this clearly. So does 390.

I'll find these posts when I'm not being lazy.

He's also self-analyzes himself a lot. To me this comes off as self-conscious. I feel like newb!scum would always think "Did I fuck up? Did I slip here?" Like, they would have this paranoid mentality, and I think Nyd is showing this paranoid mentality of always analyzing themselves and thinking that they probably slipped and fucked up somewhere.

I will admit I am self analyzing but it's because I want to make sure I don't say things I don't mean.

239 may just be him questioning why Gamma has a Scum Read on Pep, but I dunno what about it, to me him asking about Pep just seemed forced to me. Like he's trying to buddy him but not buddy him at the same time. I don't get it, it's wierd to me. either way I don't like it.

I feel like you're trying to hard to form a connection between me and pep. That was me wondering how he was reading the lurkers.

291 made me lol'd. So did 394

I'm glad you find my frustration funny.

352 is the post that made me want to vote him. At this point it seemed as if Nyd was trying to be desperate because Nyd couldn't handle pressure coming from Accountant's extensive questioning.
At this point the next 7 pages is him flailing because he didn't know how to deal with pressure.

Explained this before and you also said that I could be town who didn't know how to deal with pressure but you're still putting this in your case of me being scum.

381 is Nyd saying that I said that he never answered his question when really that was me letting Accountant know that he isn't going to get the answer he wanted.

How is this scummy though? I clearly misread and thought you were saying I didn't answer him.

390 confirms that he doesn't care about his scum reads. Even if this was his attempt to be sarcastic, it didn't read well.

So you have 1 scum and 2 potential scum. I'm going to tell you right now that that's impossible because there are 2 scum in the game. Does that mean that one of your potential scum should be removed from your reads? Nope because that's the dumbest shit I've ever heard and I've gone through a lot of dumb players in video mafia. You could similarly question people who are just lynching people based off PoE. The only difference is that I've stated that those people were my potential scum instead of saying "here's my town circle, lynch everyone else." Yes, I'm scum hunting and certain other people are just town hunting.

Thats the case!

That's my rebuttal. I don't think your case is horrible because I can see why you think I'm scummy but like, relax, because you're wrong on me.

[nydushermain]

Ramsicus is probably town. There's maybe 1 scum in those 3 Alisae/pep/nyd unless they're making a really suboptimal bus so one scum left in gamma/DWB/Charloux/Accountant. Need to work out more TRs from deeper reading for PoE though

So in 7 people, there are 2 scum.

There's maybe 1 scum in those 3 Alisae/pep/nyd unless they're making a really suboptimal bus

Why can't me and pep be scum together? Alisae seems to believe that's the case and constantly notes posts where he thinks we're buddying up, chainsawing, etc.

[nydushermain]

VOTE: Alisae

Nyd, come at me bro.

You have issues LOL. I already told you, I think you're town.

[nydushermain]

Can you drop your ego for just one moment and jump on the DBW bandwagon? I don't care, I'm not voting on a town read. Especially when one of my potential scum in a potential lynch.

[nydushermain]

Honestly, wouldn't mind getting you out of the game if your purpose in life is just to antagonize anyone you think is scum and not reconsider at all. Anyways, if the votes on you could just transfer over and go on DBW, that would be great.

[nydushermain]

I don't even understand why there is a wagon on you. I don't understand Ramcius' case. All I see is an OMGUS from pep. I feel like my town "case" on you is strong enough not to get you lynched today. Maybe I'm not trying enough.

[nydushermain]

Did you SERIOUSLY hammer yourself?

[nydushermain]

You're not dead, I went back to make sure. You were L-1 with your vote on you. You're annoying but kinda amusing. You come into the game sane, and fmpov, it looks like you're slowly descending into madness as the days go on.

[nydushermain]

I wish someone else was here for me to talk to because I don't think you like me very much. I'll just lurk in the shadows and wait until someone else I think is town starts posting...

[nydushermain]

Because if it was you wouldn't be hiding it from everyone else.

How has he been hiding it? From what I've seen so far Pep has been fairly open about the whole thing.

Wait really, this is your catch up?

[nydushermain]

Yep, that was a reaction test.
Starting to think you're more town now.
Not certain on it, but I think if you were scum you would have hammered.
Or atleast that was the reaction I was trying to get you to do.

Why not come join the Pep wagon?

Honestly, I wouldn't actually mind joining it. I really do think DBW is a better lynch. I don't think he really cares about the game at all. Tell you what, if you can convince one other person to vote on him seriously, I'll jump on the wagon.

[nydushermain]

Also, what were you trying to get from that? What if I hammered LOL. It's not like you can give your reads after you die.

[nydushermain]

The only reason why I'm advocating a Pep lynch more then a DBW lynch is because Pep is a stronger scumread. I rather go with my strong scumread then a weaker scumread.

If you lolhammered, you would have been policy lynched.
If you did flip scum, I'm pretty sure Pep would have followed shortly after.
Trading my life for 2 scum lynches? I think thats worth it.

And I can give reads during twilight phase which is fine. You two would be my top scumpicks.

Oh. Didn't know about twilight phase haha. Yeah I dunno. I have towny points and mafia points for pep. I think my reluctance to vote him is mostly because if he is town, he defended me and I feel guilty for lynching someone who tried to stop my lynch when I was in a bad spot. I'm still advocating for a DBW lynch.

[nydushermain]

The only reason why I'm advocating a Pep lynch more then a DBW lynch is because Pep is a stronger scumread. I rather go with my strong scumread then a weaker scumread.

If you lolhammered, you would have been policy lynched.
If you did flip scum, I'm pretty sure Pep would have followed shortly after.
Trading my life for 2 scum lynches? I think thats worth it.

And I can give reads during twilight phase which is fine. You two would be my top scumpicks.

Oh. Didn't know about twilight phase haha. Yeah I dunno. I have towny points and mafia points for pep. I think my reluctance to vote him is mostly because if he is town, he defended me and I feel guilty for lynching someone who tried to stop my lynch when I was in a bad spot. I'm still advocating for a DBW lynch.

That's exactly why Pep defended you: to get town cred.
Now you're feeling uncomfortable hoping on the wagon because he defended you.

Eh maybe but he could be town.

[nydushermain]

@alisae - yeah if he's scum it's working

@ssbm, sorry I'm kinda confused T.T . Which quote are you asking me to respond to? The first two of the quotes you made or the first two quotes in the last quote that you listed?

[nydushermain]

Because if it was you wouldn't be hiding it from everyone else.

How has he been hiding it? From what I've seen so far Pep has been fairly open about the whole thing.

Wait really, this is your catch up?

@DBW - You've been gone almost all day, are you caught up yet? Have any strong reads? Particularly on Alisae/Pep/Nyd?

I read through a couple of D1s that accountant has been a part of. In one of them, someone got 5 votes by day 2 without him being able to retaliate. On another, I believe jailerkeeper got lynched over night.

Did you check D2 to see if the person who hammered got policy lynched the next day? Or check the role pms of the players that placed the 4th or 5th votes to see if they were scum quickhammering? Did you check Accountant's alignment in these games? This is you resorting to shade throwing onto Acc as soon as the wagon on you dissipates, when you claim you've just woken up and are maybe calmer? Why don't you take a step back and try to look at who else might be scum at this point?

BTW Kyouko, if you hop on my wagon, I have a good feeling Nyd will hammer it even if it's at L-1.

I saw him talking about hammering the DBW slot because it was (is, as far as I've caught up) lurking but I think he was speaking out of frustration about lynching anyone. I doubt he would lynch his townreads, he seems to organize the game the way I do: push people one way or another away from a neutral line and be willing to compromise to lynch anyone who you aren't strongly TRing, even nulls, if necessary. Of course I'll keep working to sort nulls to get above my "lynch line" or figure out if they're likely scum but I think if pepchoninga, for example, were L-1 at this point he would not hammer pep. Pep's one of his strongest TRs where I'm reading

What makes you think I'm going to hop on your wagon out of curiosity? Did you do something naughty I haven't read yet?

Because for some reason people think I'm scum. Also I don't think Nyd would hammer Pep because of this:

Also Nyd, let me ask you another question. As scum, what is your opinion in bussing your partner? Have you ever done it before?

In video mafia yes. I don't think I've ever rolled scum on forum before though. I would never bus a partner if I only had 1 though unless it was a LYLO/MYLO situation.

Also, do you think this is wierd or nah?

Nyd come join the Pep wagon! We have a nice, comfy seat for ya.

Go away vile temptress! I'd like to note that DBW hasn't even voted anyone yet.

VOTE: pep[/unvote]

... I'm horrible at this.

VOTE: pep

This seat isn't actually that comfortable. You lied.

VOTE: DBW

Also look at the timestamps as well. I think they're like all less then a minute.

I've got context now. Looks like he sees Accountant vote an inactive and decides it will be ok to park his vote on an inactive as well. Common scum tactic to stall for time by both of them, but Accountant's vote actually makes sense (Mewtaph was here to talk in RVS but now that there's a big cockfight in the middle of the thread he's nowhere to be seen), whereas nyd's vote is just because DBW lurking without context. Charloux's vote is also sitting there now, but I'm not fully caught up yet. I assume he hasn't posted in the last few pages if there's a request to prod him out though. Didn't like Charloux's line asking about why do people always SR him in games. Some of those on-the-outskirts slots (DBW, Charloux, Gamma, by ascending order of activity) I'd want to hear from them. Gamma almost looks like he's posturing but I feel like I always think that about him and never read him right If we have to deadline lynch someone I'd do DBW but we have a couple of days to work with here. Oh I completely forgot about that Ramcius guy too. Will probably ISO him and Charloux after catchup because I feel like I got mixed signals from their early game and they didn't post much through the post I'm at now.

@Nyd - bumping the first of these quotes for your response, and want your opinion on the second one too, specifically: why do you scumread DBW? I get why we would deadline him because the lynch is the safest at this point, but why did you vote him while he was inactive? He can't respond to questions or give thoughts while he's gone, so what does your vote accomplish there? Why aren't you asking him anything now that he's back?

For quote 1, no I didn't check to see what happened after. I thought that it wouldn't have been a good representation of accountant's meta because it's such a weird thing for something like that to happen. I wanted to look for a game that was in a similar game state to this one so I ignored all games where he replaced in, etc. I checked accountant's alignment in every game I looked with him in it and they were ALL town except for one scum game which was pretty different to this game but the town game that accountant had played right before that scum game was pretty similar from what I could tell so I couldn't really make anything of it. Overall, I think that looking into accountant's meta might have given me something earlier because I looked through them with a biased mind but after a reread, it doesn't really amount to anything for me.

For quote 2, I'm generally just okay lynching anyone not in my town reads. I think that there's a good chance that I'm wrong on who I think are scum, mostly because I'm getting a towny vibe from accountant after taking a step back. I think that a lot of my reads came from a point of passion and frustration, and resultantly, I think I OMGUSed alisae who I now think is town, etc. I also town read a lot of people defending me, even when I saw a lot of things that could be scum from them. I dunno, I'm in a weird spot in terms of reads but DBW was never in my town reads so I'm fine voting him. He's the person I don't feel bad for mislynching if he ends up flipping town.

My vote actually wasn't an intent to provoke him into a response. It's literally just a "kill him" vote. I feel like he's the safest lynch and there's a lot of interesting interaction with him which might reveal a lot.

[nydushermain]

Because if it was you wouldn't be hiding it from everyone else.

How has he been hiding it? From what I've seen so far Pep has been fairly open about the whole thing.

Wait really, this is your catch up?

@DBW - You've been gone almost all day, are you caught up yet? Have any strong reads? Particularly on Alisae/Pep/Nyd?

I read through a couple of D1s that accountant has been a part of. In one of them, someone got 5 votes by day 2 without him being able to retaliate. On another, I believe jailerkeeper got lynched over night.

Did you check D2 to see if the person who hammered got policy lynched the next day? Or check the role pms of the players that placed the 4th or 5th votes to see if they were scum quickhammering? Did you check Accountant's alignment in these games? This is you resorting to shade throwing onto Acc as soon as the wagon on you dissipates, when you claim you've just woken up and are maybe calmer? Why don't you take a step back and try to look at who else might be scum at this point?

BTW Kyouko, if you hop on my wagon, I have a good feeling Nyd will hammer it even if it's at L-1.

I saw him talking about hammering the DBW slot because it was (is, as far as I've caught up) lurking but I think he was speaking out of frustration about lynching anyone. I doubt he would lynch his townreads, he seems to organize the game the way I do: push people one way or another away from a neutral line and be willing to compromise to lynch anyone who you aren't strongly TRing, even nulls, if necessary. Of course I'll keep working to sort nulls to get above my "lynch line" or figure out if they're likely scum but I think if pepchoninga, for example, were L-1 at this point he would not hammer pep. Pep's one of his strongest TRs where I'm reading

What makes you think I'm going to hop on your wagon out of curiosity? Did you do something naughty I haven't read yet?

Because for some reason people think I'm scum. Also I don't think Nyd would hammer Pep because of this:

Also Nyd, let me ask you another question. As scum, what is your opinion in bussing your partner? Have you ever done it before?

In video mafia yes. I don't think I've ever rolled scum on forum before though. I would never bus a partner if I only had 1 though unless it was a LYLO/MYLO situation.

Also, do you think this is wierd or nah?

Nyd come join the Pep wagon! We have a nice, comfy seat for ya.

Go away vile temptress! I'd like to note that DBW hasn't even voted anyone yet.

VOTE: pep[/unvote]

... I'm horrible at this.

VOTE: pep

This seat isn't actually that comfortable. You lied.

VOTE: DBW

Also look at the timestamps as well. I think they're like all less then a minute.

I've got context now. Looks like he sees Accountant vote an inactive and decides it will be ok to park his vote on an inactive as well. Common scum tactic to stall for time by both of them, but Accountant's vote actually makes sense (Mewtaph was here to talk in RVS but now that there's a big cockfight in the middle of the thread he's nowhere to be seen), whereas nyd's vote is just because DBW lurking without context. Charloux's vote is also sitting there now, but I'm not fully caught up yet. I assume he hasn't posted in the last few pages if there's a request to prod him out though. Didn't like Charloux's line asking about why do people always SR him in games. Some of those on-the-outskirts slots (DBW, Charloux, Gamma, by ascending order of activity) I'd want to hear from them. Gamma almost looks like he's posturing but I feel like I always think that about him and never read him right If we have to deadline lynch someone I'd do DBW but we have a couple of days to work with here. Oh I completely forgot about that Ramcius guy too. Will probably ISO him and Charloux after catchup because I feel like I got mixed signals from their early game and they didn't post much through the post I'm at now.

@Nyd - bumping the first of these quotes for your response, and want your opinion on the second one too, specifically: why do you scumread DBW? I get why we would deadline him because the lynch is the safest at this point, but why did you vote him while he was inactive? He can't respond to questions or give thoughts while he's gone, so what does your vote accomplish there? Why aren't you asking him anything now that he's back?

I think charloux is a very good lynch as well.

[nydushermain]

I don't think alisae is scum though lol. I think that DBW is better as a lynch. I think there's a lot of TvT that has gone on this game and I have a feeling scum has either just been hiding (or it could be pep). If not, it might just be accountant and my initial read was right but regardless, I'm not voting on someone I think is town.

[nydushermain]

You know my reasons . You've asked me before (I think like 10 times by now). Like I said, if you can convince a third person to join your wagon on him, I'll reluctantly come aboard.

[nydushermain]

What's VI mean? @alisae

[nydushermain]

Oh. We use the term "donkey" in video. Yeah I feel the same way about ram .-.

[nydushermain]

Read the shit he said about me "slipping" zz

[nydushermain]

I know, I'm just saying it's analogous. I feel like his attempted case on me was similar to his attempted case on you. He thinks weird things are slips.

[nydushermain]

I think if I forget about the early game, Ramcius looks more and more scummy to me. I give the VI read only because of ONE post he made but I don't think it actually holds. The lynch on alisae is disgustingly bad. Going to christmas dinner. Don't. Hammer.

[nydushermain]

I'm on my phone. Please don't lynch Ali pleaseeeee at least novote if you don't think you'll be free for eta

[nydushermain]

I'm on my phone. Please don't lynch Ali pleaseeeee at least novote if you don't think you'll be free for eta

Why are you so keen on not voting him? Cuz I don't think he's done anything for you to deserve this. If anything he was almost the reason for you to get lynched. Is this you revealing as a scum parthner? That's really the only way I could read that. Why don't you just lynch him? If you need reasons for that, there are more then plenty.

He honestly hasn't but if every town played by OMGUS, mafia games would be much harder to win. Also, if you are seriously considering us as scum partners after all he's done, there's something wrong with your thought process. I legit think he's towny. I like his case vs me because I could see why I appear scummy to him. His turning point on when he voted me makes kinda sense and it just feels like he's arrogant cocky town. I don't see why he would try to make accountant and I stop fighting unless he's scum partners with accountant and doesn't want accountant outed but considering accountants flip on ali when I was L-2 or L-1 (don't remember) this possibility is kind of striked out for me. I see nothing that strongly leads to Ali being scum and I think that this wagon is horrific. Just read Ali's ISO again and replace your name with anonymous and see if he's still scum in your eyes.

[nydushermain]

NO! WHY Are you so suicidal?????

[nydushermain]

I think if I forget about the early game, Ramcius looks more and more scummy to me. I give the VI read only because of ONE post he made but I don't think it actually holds. The lynch on alisae is disgustingly bad. Going to christmas dinner. Don't. Hammer.

You trying to put our attention away from Ali? Why? Why have you suddenly became more protective towards him now that he is at L-1? Seems really strnage.

Honestly I thought that if anybody was to be Alisae's scum parthner it would be Gamma, but this is more then suspicious. Anyways, I belive Alisae should be our target, since the lynch on him has the most evidence from most members.

Because now he's actually lynchable... and dead -.-
Ali I even told you, if you convince a third I go on the pep wagon -.-

[nydushermain]

and a town flip is gonna be the best way to do it
Also Charloux PR told.

Yeah I kinda got that feeling too. Charloux was lower than DBW but I made up a reason to ignore him Zz. If he's not PR I think he's very scummy. If you're wrong on pep, I'll be very mad at you. I was ready to ride or die with you even though you Still think I'm potential scum

[nydushermain]

zzz