Newbie 1764: Wind Game Over
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nydushermain Goon
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Hey, I'm from video mafia and have played a very little bit of forum mafia on Teamliquid. So yeah, I'm not a complete amateur but I guess we'll see how this goes.
I currently think that gamma emerald and accountant are lightly townie. No scum reads at the moment.
Gamma Emerald: Very weak fluffy read. I just personally feel like if I were scum, I would be reluctant to be the first poster of the game... especially with a vote. Even if it's "RVS"
Accountant: I liked that our IC decided that reads were more important to give out than the general IC post that I've seen in other threads. Made it feel like accountant really felt the need to say something that they couldn't ignore. I feel like an IC post is more likely to be townread (even though this isn't something that should be read for at all) just because it makes people feel comfortable with the IC but to post a scumread before trying to get on peoples' good side seems like town.-
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nydushermain Goon
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I think mewtaph is lightly townie too after a reread. I think that the way he addressed charloux sounded like he was potentially pushing scum on char, but wasn't really too accusatory and instead, felt more inquisitive. I also feel like I threw in random vocabulary words that could potentially be synonyms for the words that I meant in the last sentence but was too lazy to really check the precise definition.-
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nydushermain Goon
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nydushermain Goon
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I'll post more later when I have a bit more time but something that sticks out the most to me is how passive accountant is being. Accountant has the highest activity it seems and is asking a lot of questions but none of the questions don't really seem to me like someone scum hunting. It gives off a "I'll just ask these questions for the sake of asking them" vibe. I feel like a town that found so many odd things (or at least I imagine accountant's thought process is "oh that seems odd"), they would've at least made a decent set of reads. It's like an offhand attempt to bury people. Really odd to me.
I also didn't like accountant's post #37.
The way acc says "Since town cannot kill at night,In post 37, Accountant wrote:@Van: Why are wagons scummy? Since Town cannot kill at night, we can only hunt down and kill mafia members by wagoning and lynching them. Furthermore, one of the best ways to hunt mafia is to exert pressure on them. In a calm environment, mafia can blend in easily, but in an environment where there are lots of threats and pressure, mafia are more likely to slip up and make a mistake. In this case, wagons are a useful tool to generate this pressure.
I think wagons are way more useful than they are harmful. So how can they be scummy?we..." makes it seems like acc is trying to blend into town by saying "hey guysweare town." Normally, I read this as not alignment indicative but it's some sort of mental inconsistency that bothers me. When you're in this type of mindset when you're posting, I feel like you stick with it and say "okay, sinceIam town, when I say town, I sayweand when I say mafia, I saythey" but acc says mafia four times consecutively (as in without referring to another person again), and twice acc could've said "they" as a replacement for "mafia."
VOTE: Accountant-
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nydushermain Goon
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I am playing under the assumption that if you're asking a lot of questions, it's because you're curious as to why people are doing such things. Maybe the word "odd" was the wrong word. Mostly, I felt weird that you were withholding the information you were gaining from asking people said questions and their responses. Maybe I skimmed over it a little too hard because I was tunneled on a read I had on one of your other posts.In post 69, Accountant wrote:
You are correct that I'm asking question without following them up with strong reads. Let me clearly explain why.In post 68, nydushermain wrote:I'll post more later when I have a bit more time but something that sticks out the most to me is how passive accountant is being. Accountant has the highest activity it seems and is asking a lot of questions but none of the questions don't really seem to me like someone scum hunting. It gives off a "I'll just ask these questions for the sake of asking them" vibe. I feel like a town that found so many odd things (or at least I imagine accountant's thought process is "oh that seems odd"), they would've at least made a decent set of reads. It's like an offhand attempt to bury people. Really odd to me.
Firstly, a lot of these questions are asked not because I want to know the answer, but because I wish to provoke thought about the way the game works in the minds of the people I'm asking the question to. For example, if I ask a question like "given that wagons create pressure and pressure helps to catch scum, don't you think that wagons are a good thing?", that is an attempt to make someone think. It's not because I want to actually know the answer.
Secondly, a lot of these questions are theory related. Because the theory of mafia is consistent across all games, everything to do with discussion of theory is completely null in my mind. A player with a question about theory(or a wrong conception of mafia theory) is just as likely to be town as scum. Therefore it's impossible to read a player based on theory discussions. Given that the past few pages have been mostly me talking about theory so that everyone's on the same page when we start scumhunting, it's definitely impossible for me to come up with strong reads based on that.
Thirdly, a lot of what I am doing right now is trying to get into people's mindset. Ramcius is paranoid. Gamma is enthusiastic. Mewtaph is trying to game-solve. Some of these things are indicative of certain alignments. Some are not, but they help me understand where a player is coming from so it's easier to determine their alignment in the following posts. Scumhunting is not about blindly applying a set of scum tells to a game. Rather, it's about truly understanding players, taking their posts in the context of that understanding and then determining if that context and that kind of posts stems from the mindset of someone who is pushing a scum agenda or a townie who is trying to gamesolve. For this reason, nothing pops up to me as immediately strongly indicative of town or scum(with the exception of Ramcius' post, which I have already pointed out), it's natural for me to try to understand players on a deeper level so that I can more easily determine their alignment when we progress into the later stages of the game. You can think of my questions, therefore, as "setups" to scumhunting.
There are two points in your posts that I wish to refute. Firstly, you claim that I would find many things odd. I'm not sure where you got this impression. This is a very standard start to a newbie game, and nothing has popped out to me as particularly odd or out of place, with the exception of Gamma's over-enthusiasm. Secondly, you claim that I do not have a decent set of reads. Again, I am not sure where you got this impression. I do have quite a few reads - specifically I read Gamma as slightly scummy, Ramcius as town, and Charloux and Mewtaph as moderately townie. Granted, these are not complete or particularly strong, but it's unreasonable to expect very strong reads on page 3.
Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying because your analogy is wrong. I'm not saying you're scum for saying mafia, I'm saying that the way you're being inconsistent is scummy with your usage of perspective. You start off with the perspective of being town when you say "we" and then you drop the perspective when you could be saying "they" instead of "mafia" multiple times which I find weird. It's like you were trying to pretend to be town by saying "we" and then forgot to keep in that mindset when talking about mafia.In post 70, Accountant wrote:
Why do you attribute this to a mental inconsistency as opposed to it simply being the way I like to post? There was another user on this site, iraonvp, who had the habit of always referring to certain alignments as "x-aligned". For example, he would never say things like "So-and-so is scum", he would say things like "So-and-so is scum-aligned". You could easily use your argument to say that this is indicative of iraonvp having a scummy mindset - but this is simply his posting style, so it's definitely not indicative of alignment.In post 68, nydushermain wrote:The way acc says "Since town cannot kill at night, we..." makes it seems like acc is trying to blend into town by saying "hey guys we are town." Normally, I read this as not alignment indicative but it's some sort of mental inconsistency that bothers me. When you're in this type of mindset when you're posting, I feel like you stick with it and say "okay, since I am town, when I say town, I say we and when I say mafia, I say they" but acc says mafia four times consecutively (as in without referring to another person again), and twice acc could've said "they" as a replacement for "mafia."
I think that it's not a good idea to try to generalize about the mindset that people have about the way they use English, and especially not to draw conclusions about their alignment based on it. Sure, if I have a habit of always saying "they" when I am town and only say "mafia" when I am scum, then it's fine to scumread me for this. But in this case it's just the way I like to speak.-
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nydushermain Goon
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It would depend on the circumstance. I know I didn't really say this as a reason but to be honest, I really liked how what you posted sounded in my head. I read it in a sassy way and I liked it.In post 48, Mewtaph wrote:
@nydushermain: Say Player X came in for their first post with an accusation on one of the active players, Player Y. How would you go about trying to read this kind of post?In post 24, nydushermain wrote:I think mewtaph is lightly townie too after a reread. I think that the way he addressed charloux sounded like he was potentially pushing scum on char, but wasn't really too accusatory and instead, felt more inquisitive.-
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nydushermain Goon
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I've read a past game of yours @accountant and found that the style of questions you ask are similar (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5&start=75) but I still think that you are being more passive in this game than you were in the game that I mentioned. I'll keep you at light scum, although I'm tempted to full on push on you because I think you have a good chance of being mafia, solely because I believe that without you, this game would still be on page 2.
I think that Charloux is quite scummy as well. I think that post 87 did not come from a towny mindset. He says that he thinks Ramcius is scum because of his "overly aggressive" attitude and defensiveness but when he continues to be, what I perceive as, being even more aggressive, Charloux decides to just back off? I understand deciding "okay, this tunnel might be clouding my judgement, I'll look back at other people now" but there's no indication for me that Charloux was even looking at other people as potential scum.
I read accountant scum initially for the same reasons as pepchoninga and I want to say it's a sheep but I don't think it's the case. It feels too obvious a sheep when the only (what I think is) substantial scum read given was from me and his scum read seems to be almost identical. The reason why I think it might not be a sheep (and this is the way I'm leaning for now) is that near the bottom of post 82,
he says "also I think it was you who asked me" which shows that he's probably just skimming through the thread and not really paying attention to exactly what is being said. I feel like he probably just saw accountant's name pop up the most in posts and just read through those posts and decided to make a stance on accountant's alignment. So for now, I lightly town lean on pepchoninga because I think that his thoughts are coming from a towny mind set since I thought the same things.In post 82, Pepchoninga wrote:I believe that what Accountant is doing is provoking people to show there true self. Questions in mafia are not asked for people to get answers but to see reactions. Ways they answer are hints to who they are. Tho this can also be used as a great protection. Xe almost talks like all his actions till this point are all made in the benefit of town. While other members are showing some motives and are even demonstating there playstyles, Accountant is being calm and collected, asking questions and then leaving them at that, without taking actions or persuing people who he belives are not town to further pressure them.
FoS: Accountant
Also I think it was you who asked me if I like early pressure lynches. Here is my answer: It depends. When I play in a new enviorment like this, with people I do not know, I mostly like to not take actions till I get the flow of the game and get to actually know a the people I'm playing with a little bit.
About bandwagoning. This is a term that was constantly used to point mafia in my first games of mafia on another not dedicated to mafia forum. Bandwagoning too fast and without trying to give your thoughts on why exactly you think a certain person deserves your vote could be suspicious. If you bandwagon with reason then it's not a bad thing. In fact is a winning move for Town.-
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nydushermain Goon
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I don't really have much on ramcius but I think that the above post leans towny.In post 59, Ramcius wrote:btw, anyone could tell me which roles from matrix6 we got in this game? Cause i can't find or it's secret?
Let's assume that he's scum. He knows from scum chat that only one column and row are possible setups because he knows which mafia role is in the game. Then, he only has two to choose from. Does scum Ramcius just ask randomly "Hey ya'll, do we know what the exact set up is?" instead of asking his partners in night chat when he has a tonne of information already? I feel like the above question can only really be asked from the pov of someone who has almost no information on the roles.-
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nydushermain Goon
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Sorry! I haven't actually been gone, I've been following the game but don't know what to think. On one hand, I feel like accountant is the scummiest but on the other hand, I feel like if he flips town, we lost our most active town member. I will say though that Charloux feels a bit townier. I feel like his posts seems like town frustration. For now, I won't be taking my vote off of accountant because I think this is our best chance of hitting scum.-
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nydushermain Goon
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Something about Gamma feels fake to me. I feel like he might be a tad bit lazy but I can't really tell. Not sure if this is alignment indicative though but if I had to pick a side, I'd say it's a tad bit scummier. Either way, I probably wouldn't vote on him today unless it was between him and someone I found to be absolutely town. I'll give my full list of town/scum in a rainbow list when I get home but if people need something to talk about, I would say that a wagon on accountant is quite good. Also, I know that I said in the previous post 145 that Charloux sounded townier because of tone, I don't town lean him so if we can't lynch accountant, I would be complacent with a charloux lynch. To be honest, I'm kind of just waiting for a flip of some kind so that I can dig into ISOs.-
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nydushermain Goon
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Not sure if you're confused of what "WIFOM" means or not but if it is, it's the equivalent of people claiming that they wouldn't do certain thing or would do certain things depending on their alignments. For example, if Susie says "well if I were mafia, I would never be this nice," that's WIFOM because we can't possibly know that. Similarly, Susie could also say "if I were mafia, I'd be much more aggressive" which is similar but I wanted to show that it wasn't always someone claiming "I wouldn't do _____."In post 147, Van_Veacesalv_Dulca wrote:Yep, so I already feel out of my depth in this game :/ Sorry everyone for being inactive, I have been a little unreliably attached to the internet for the last 2-3 days.
Yes, I think mindless wagon hopping is bad. Forming Lynches is more case by case dependent. If I think someone is town, but people are forming a lynch on them and I can't understand the argument, I will become suspicious of those players, and equally so those that vote for the player without adding their own thoughts.In post 65, Accountant wrote:@Van: So, to be clear, you think that forming lynches on players is okay, but you think mindlessly hopping onto wagons is bad, right?
I still hold my suspicions on Charloux, and Accountant, though could someone correct me if I am wrong on Accountants [quote="In post 83 but is this an example of wine in front of me? I don't fully understand the concept, but the only other game I played (different site), people told me wine in front of me was scummy because it reduces the ability to properly argue against it or something along those lines.
I am also suspicious of Gamma for town reading me? I didn't think I had done enough of anything to form a solid read on me. - Nevermind, sorry, I missed a few posts it seems I haven't decided if this point is mute yet though I am leaning no, that seems very little to go off of in my opinion
owo-
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nydushermain Goon
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Sorry I must've missed it. I find it interesting that accountant is almost avoiding giving a read on me even though I was the first person to push on him and he's asked me questions (which is, if I recall him saying, his attempts at determing people's alignments by making them reveal their true selves). Maybe I missed it because I'm not taking notes but I find it really odd. I also read a couple of his past games when he was town and he was way more aggressive. It feels like in this game, he's playing it a lot more laid back, and it seems like he's just trying to avoid getting in a major conflict with anyone.In post 156, Mewtaph wrote:I asked something similar to nydus in 129, which I think both of you need to sort out in some way or another if either of you want to continue pushing Accountant in a meaningful manner.-
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nydushermain Goon
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nydushermain Goon
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No you misunderstood. My reason for calling accountant scum was for other reasons. The only reason I lied and said he was light scum (instead of saying for sure scum) was purely for activity reasons. It was pretty much my way of saying I would give him somewhat of a break because of activity but other than that, there was nothing. So yeah, opposite of what you said. I gave him townie points for activity instead of scum points.In post 166, Gamma Emerald wrote:
ny's reasoning was that if Accountant hadn't posted the game would be shorter amd she was scum for that and I felt the logic was off. My catchup was based on content, not activity level, so that caused a mismatch.In post 165, Mewtaph wrote:
Then why is Accountant null on your readlist?In post 90, Gamma Emerald wrote:@ny: The game being shorter if Accountant wasn't posting is more indicative of Accountant being town imo-
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nydushermain Goon
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What? Have you not read anything I've said about accountant?In post 168, Ramcius wrote:Ny, are you saying we should lynch accountant, cause he was asking questions and being active? That's a red flag on you now-
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nydushermain Goon
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nydushermain Goon
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http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p8632534 That's my ISO-
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nydushermain Goon
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68: I outline my initial scum read on you based on your passiveness and DESPITE ACTIVITY and based on a post which I feel is scummy and I can't shake offIn post 173, Accountant wrote:Well, I'm very tired and I just had a very tiring week. I am not in the mood to play ISO games. Please link to the exact post where you outline your reasons.
157: I say that it's weird that you're avoiding reading me despite our interactions-
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nydushermain Goon
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If DBW gets lynched and flips town, I'd look at the people jumping on him for inactivity. That is just the easiest fluff read you can give as scum to lynch a town. If he flips scum, kudos to positions 1 and 3 in the wagon. First to push is probably town unless he's scum planning it out but not planning to have gotten his partner lynched so if position 1 lasts a while without getting night killed, look at him. Position 3 is almost always town to me if DBW is scum because he pushed the votes to a dangerous number. No one had higher than votes at the time so to push your scum partner a third vote in the circumstance seems extremely weird play. It kind of damns a lurking scum partner so I think position 3 is always town in that case.-
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nydushermain Goon
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nydushermain Goon
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There are 3 people with <10 posts. If they're all town do we just give mafia the win by lynching them all? I think DBW could potentially be scum but I think that going after obvious scum is better. There are people who have done things scummy, and then there are people who haven't done things towny. I'd rather lynch the former.-
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nydushermain Goon
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Something about this post seems really scummy. Can't quite place my tongue on why though...In post 183, Gamma Emerald wrote:Please come up with better reasons than lynching a lurker for DBW. I've seen him lurk out before as town.-
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nydushermain Goon
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nydushermain Goon
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LOL what? I'm not saying that DBW is town. I'm saying that in the case that he flips town, these are what I think the conclusions would be.In post 187, Accountant wrote:
I don't really like how nydushermain is lining up lynches here.In post 177, nydushermain wrote:If DBW gets lynched and flips town, I'd look at the people jumping on him for inactivity. That is just the easiest fluff read you can give as scum to lynch a town. If he flips scum, kudos to positions 1 and 3 in the wagon. First to push is probably town unless he's scum planning it out but not planning to have gotten his partner lynched so if position 1 lasts a while without getting night killed, look at him. Position 3 is almost always town to me if DBW is scum because he pushed the votes to a dangerous number. No one had higher than votes at the time so to push your scum partner a third vote in the circumstance seems extremely weird play. It kind of damns a lurking scum partner so I think position 3 is always town in that case.
nydusher, I've already very clearly explained why that post wasn't scummy. You've understood the explanation, but continue to insist that it's scummy. I think that's because of the fact that you want a reason to be able to push me that nobody can refute(because since your reasoning has been debunked you're essentially just claiming I'm scummy because of your gut). That's something that's extremely scummy - it absolves you of responsibility of justifying your reads while letting you push mislynches forward.
This fits with your lining up lynches on DBW - you want to be able to sit on me at the end of the day and NOT on the DBW wagon. Yet, at the same time, you're letting the wagon go forward while telling everyone why DBW is town and the wagon is misguided:
I'm not saying we're lynching DBW but he has 3 votes now and 5 votes, from what I understand, is an autolynch.
This is not the calm, meandering mindset that a townie has when the rest of the town is voting some lurker for no reason over their strongest scumread who their gut and overwhelming textual evidence!!! says is scum. I'd expect town!nydushermain in this position to be going "why the heck are you all voting DBW when obvscum is right here??" and getting more and more frustrated when nobody follows. The fact that you're openly denouncing the DBW wagon while not doing anything to stop it tells me that you're scum who wants to coast through D1 on a lurker wagon that nobody will blame him for. AndThere are 3 people with <10 posts. If they're all town do we just give mafia the win by lynching them all? I think DBW could potentially be scum but I think that going after obvious scum is better. There are people who have done things scummy, and then there are people who haven't done things towny. I'd rather lynch the former.thenyou have lynches lined up after DBW flips, all while looking like a brave and outspoken townie who's sitting on the IC.
If you want my read on you, here it is. I think you're scum.
VOTE: nydushermain
ALSO, you saying "I explained why the post isn't scummy" doesn't make the post nonscummy. I disagree with your explanations as to why you think they aren't scummy. I've searched through your past played threads and albeit I've only seen one game of you being scum, it was SO different to your play now.-
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explain your town read on herIn post 189, Gamma Emerald wrote:That's some bad posting and I expect you to unvote Accountant, ny.-
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nydushermain Goon
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nydushermain Goon
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I think in like the 10 games I dove through that Accountant has been in, there was only 1 where he was scum. Now the scum game was actually very different to ALL the games that I read through so I thought that maybe I was wrong. But before then, call it confirmation bias, but the town games I read of him were different. They had him being a lot more aggressive towards people which I didn't see from him this game. I don't know the exact number that I read through but pretend the number is 9 town games. Then, I FINALLY found a scum game from accountant and was like "wow this is pretty different from his town play and the play in the current thread" so then I started completely doubting my read. For the sake of ego though, I went through another thread that was dated to be before the scum game (as all the town games I had seen him in were played AFTER the scum game). The town game that he played right before the game where he rolled scum was very similar to (in my opinion) that game. So my conclusion is: Accountant changed playstyles after having played scum that game for whatever reason. So I didn't misspeak in that I said the wrong read, I misspoke in terms of the intent.-
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Now I could link these threads but it would involve me going through his thread history AGAIN which sounds like a complete waste of time. Also @accountant, you say that you expect me to be more angry about DBW being lynched over you? The thing is, like I said prior in 146, I'm waiting for a flip. That means that I'm open to being wrong on people and that although I have a scum read on you, there are 3 scum in this game, meaning that a lynch on another person could still produce a mafia.-
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nydushermain Goon
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When do I give any indication of "understanding" why your explanations are from a towny mindset?In post 187, Accountant wrote:
I don't really like how nydushermain is lining up lynches here.In post 177, nydushermain wrote:If DBW gets lynched and flips town, I'd look at the people jumping on him for inactivity. That is just the easiest fluff read you can give as scum to lynch a town. If he flips scum, kudos to positions 1 and 3 in the wagon. First to push is probably town unless he's scum planning it out but not planning to have gotten his partner lynched so if position 1 lasts a while without getting night killed, look at him. Position 3 is almost always town to me if DBW is scum because he pushed the votes to a dangerous number. No one had higher than votes at the time so to push your scum partner a third vote in the circumstance seems extremely weird play. It kind of damns a lurking scum partner so I think position 3 is always town in that case.
nydusher, I've already very clearly explained why that post wasn't scummy. You've understood the explanation, but continue to insist that it's scummy. I think that's because of the fact that you want a reason to be able to push me that nobody can refute(because since your reasoning has been debunked you're essentially just claiming I'm scummy because of your gut). That's something that's extremely scummy - it absolves you of responsibility of justifying your reads while letting you push mislynches forward.-
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nydushermain Goon
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You don't read my other reasons for calling accountant scum. Have you heard of ISO?In post 199, Ramcius wrote:Yes, you wait flip to trump after and tell how wrong wee wee and line up some ML, i don't see you as a town, you don't try solve DBW situation, you want him lynched, and your push on accountant based just on meta from reading other games is joke, you say we should vote our top scumread? i'm up for it
VOTE: Nydushermain-
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nydushermain Goon
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And what? I never implicated that I'd "berate people" or whatever for being potentially wrong on DBW. I presented both sides of him being scum or town.In post 199, Ramcius wrote:Yes, you wait flip to trump after and tell how wrong wee wee and line up some ML, i don't see you as a town, you don't try solve DBW situation, you want him lynched, and your push on accountant based just on meta from reading other games is joke, you say we should vote our top scumread? i'm up for it
VOTE: Nydushermain-
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So do you not have strong scum reads this game then? Is that an explanation for your passiveness?In post 200, Accountant wrote:
That's a bad conclusion. The reason for this pattern is simple: I change my playstyle every game. Mood affects my playstyle. The strength of the reads I have affect my playstyle(if someone is being outrageously scummy, I'll be much more aggressive). The players I'm playing with affect my playstyle(if I'm playing with Thor, I become less of a town leader, because Thor is a better town leader than me and having two leaders in one game is excessive and creates horrible messes if they clash). Meta affects my playstyle(I know Nahdia looks out for me bussing when I'm scum, so if I'm scum against Nahdia I bus less). There are probably some unknown or subconscious factors that affect my playstyle that I don't even know about. It's a bad idea to try to draw a read on me from something like looking at my past games' tone.In post 195, nydushermain wrote:I think in like the 10 games I dove through that Accountant has been in, there was only 1 where he was scum. Now the scum game was actually very different to ALL the games that I read through so I thought that maybe I was wrong. But before then, call it confirmation bias, but the town games I read of him were different. They had him being a lot more aggressive towards people which I didn't see from him this game. I don't know the exact number that I read through but pretend the number is 9 town games. Then, I FINALLY found a scum game from accountant and was like "wow this is pretty different from his town play and the play in the current thread" so then I started completely doubting my read. For the sake of ego though, I went through another thread that was dated to be before the scum game (as all the town games I had seen him in were played AFTER the scum game). The town game that he played right before the game where he rolled scum was very similar to (in my opinion) that game. So my conclusion is: Accountant changed playstyles after having played scum that game for whatever reason. So I didn't misspeak in that I said the wrong read, I misspoke in terms of the intent.-
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nydushermain Goon
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Also, you say that I'm trying to just coast through a D1 on a lurker wagon nobody will blame me for? If you're town accountant, read post 160. What you accuse me of is pretty much not voting on whoever is getting lynched today, them flipping town, and then me taking credit for it (similar to what ramcius is saying I think). Does the above post seem like someone who's trying to stand aside and just let whatever lynch go through and take credit for it? Does that really seem like my playstyle right now? Because if you're town accountant, I'm openly letting anyone bandwagon on you with me, including someone who read you scummy, and pretty much taking all credit for the mislynch. Yeah.. no.In post 187, Accountant wrote:In post 177, nydushermain wrote:This is not the calm, meandering mindset that a townie has when the rest of the town is voting some lurker for no reason over their strongest scumread who their gut and overwhelming textual evidence!!! says is scum. I'd expect town!nydushermain in this position to be going "why the heck are you all voting DBW when obvscum is right here??" and getting more and more frustrated when nobody follows. The fact that you're openly denouncing the DBW wagon while not doing anything to stop it tells me that you're scum who wants to coast through D1 on a lurker wagon that nobody will blame him for. Andthenyou have lynches lined up after DBW flips, all while looking like a brave and outspoken townie who's sitting on the IC.
If you want my read on you, here it is. I think you're scum.
VOTE: nydushermain-
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nydushermain Goon
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How do I want him dead? You're talking as if I'm coming from the mindset of scum but I want you to try to see if I can come up with the same shit I posted if I'm town. I don't know anyone's alignment this game. I LOVE digging through history and seeing who can be with who, whether I believe this person genuinely pushed on town or scum, etc. If DBW gets lynched, which I'm okay with because I don't know if I'm right on accountant, then fine, we lynch him. Any sort of alignment reveal helps me because I can dig into ISOs after. However, the person I read the scummiest is accountant and would I prefer a lynch on him? ABSOLUTELY and I've stated my reasons why. This doesn't mean that I'm trying to get some sort of "town cred" if DBW flips town. It means that I don't have a town read on DBW so there's a chance that he can be scum in my mind.In post 205, Ramcius wrote:
exactly, you didn't do anything to make him talk, you simply say he can be town or scum, considering he said nothing useful yet, everyone can say same, and in different from you, we tried get him talking, but you don't want it, you just want him dead and see flip townIn post 202, nydushermain wrote:
And what? I never implicated that I'd "berate people" or whatever for being potentially wrong on DBW. I presented both sides of him being scum or town.In post 199, Ramcius wrote:Yes, you wait flip to trump after and tell how wrong wee wee and line up some ML, i don't see you as a town, you don't try solve DBW situation, you want him lynched, and your push on accountant based just on meta from reading other games is joke, you say we should vote our top scumread? i'm up for it
VOTE: Nydushermain-
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nydushermain Goon
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The reason why I said a DBW lynch is bad is because YOU are my top lynch. If it goes through, honestly, w/e because he can still be scum but I personally want a lynch on who I think is scummier.In post 207, Accountant wrote:
No, what I am accusing you of is beingIn post 204, nydushermain wrote:Also, you say that I'm trying to just coast through a D1 on a lurker wagon nobody will blame me for? If you're town accountant, read post 160. What you accuse me of is pretty much not voting on whoever is getting lynched today, them flipping town, and then me taking credit for it (similar to what ramcius is saying I think). Does the above post seem like someone who's trying to stand aside and just let whatever lynch go through and take credit for it? Does that really seem like my playstyle right now? Because if you're town accountant, I'm openly letting anyone bandwagon on you with me, including someone who read you scummy, and pretty much taking all credit for the mislynch. Yeah.. no.inconsistentwith your words and actions. You have explicitly said you think the DBW lynch isn't good:
And you have explicitly said you think my lynchI think DBW could potentially be scum but I think that going after obvious scum is better. There are people who have done things scummy, and then there are people who haven't done things towny. I'd rather lynch the former.isgood:
So it makesI think that an accountant wagon would be goodno senseto me for town!nydush to happily lay back and let the bad wagon go through over the good one while smiling and nodding and saying "well, maybe I'm wrong. Let's see how he flips!" and saying "of course, if he flips town, so-and-so need to be lynched, winky face".-
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nydushermain Goon
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So when we have many days left and I could be wrong on a lurker, you don't think it's reasonable for me to be waiting for a flip so that I can go do ISO dives and see what the interactions are with people and whoever flipped? Get out of here.In post 206, Accountant wrote:
There are 2 scum in this game, not 3. And that line of reasoning is bad. If I saw a lynch on a lurker that I think is bad while my top scum read is ignored, I'm not going to go "hmm, let's wait for a flip, maybe I'm wrong about the lurker", and that's not what any reasonable townie would think. This is an excuse generated by scum.In post 196, nydushermain wrote:Now I could link these threads but it would involve me going through his thread history AGAIN which sounds like a complete waste of time. Also @accountant, you say that you expect me to be more angry about DBW being lynched over you? The thing is, like I said prior in 146, I'm waiting for a flip. That means that I'm open to being wrong on people and that although I have a scum read on you, there are 3 scum in this game, meaning that a lynch on another person could still produce a mafia.-
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nydushermain Goon
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So let's set up a hypothetical. Someone gets lynched and flips town. Do you think they have a greater than 50% chance of having scum in the wagon?In post 209, Accountant wrote:
You're right. You aren't going to "berate" them, you're going to lynch them.In post 202, nydushermain wrote:And what? I never implicated that I'd "berate people" or whatever for being potentially wrong on DBW. I presented both sides of him being scum or town.
In post 177, nydushermain wrote:If DBW gets lynched and flips town, I'd look at the people jumping on him for inactivity. That is just the easiest fluff read you can give as scum to lynch a town.-
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nydushermain Goon
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Actually, pepchoninga gave a very similar reason to me for thinking you were scum. I pinged him to jump on the wagon with me. It doesn't seem clear at all. What seems clear is that no one is actually reading WHY I think you're scum and is just making dumb assessments based on the last couple of things I've said.In post 213, Accountant wrote:
I don't buy that at all. In a situation such as yours, a townie would be trying to show everyone how scummy I am so they'll agree with you that I am scummier and lynch me. You would be questioning me and attacking me harshly rather than going "yeah, I said something on page 3, remember that?" Here's why - it's clear that nobody buys your analysis of why I'm scum, so if you were town who were convinced I'm scum, you want to generate new content, you want to pressure me and make me slip up and make me do stuff thatIn post 210, nydushermain wrote:The reason why I said a DBW lynch is bad is because YOU are my top lynch. If it goes through, honestly, w/e because he can still be scum but I personally want a lynch on who I think is scummier.wouldmake town buy that I'm scum. You have absolutely no reason to rehash old stuff that people have shown they aren't convinced by(or the wagon on me would be much bigger).
You tell me you want an Accountant wagon, but you aren't showing it. You're sitting back and coasting along.-
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nydushermain Goon
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The problem here is that the notes I've made are in my head. If I could go back in time and make specific bookmarks of everything I've seen in your past games, I would but at the time, I was mostly looking for where you ended up being scum. Yes, I can assure you that I've been trying in my head to solve your alignment and maybe I'm doing it poorly in the environment of forum mafia because I'm not giving concrete evidence but trust me when I say I've tried to consider you as town. Confirmation bias is hard to overcome and to me, you're scummier than not.In post 216, Accountant wrote:
If you acknowledge that nobody else is convinced by your extremely shoddy line of logic about why I'm scum, then if you were really convinced I'm scum you'd be trying to come up with new, more convincing lines of logic. That's what you would be focused on. The idea of letting a suboptimal lynch run through would never cross your mind at all, unless you were a player who was particularly doubtful of themselves or unconfident in their scumhunting - which doesn't fit with what you've shown us at all.In post 214, nydushermain wrote:Actually, pepchoninga gave a very similar reason to me for thinking you were scum. I pinged him to jump on the wagon with me. It doesn't seem clear at all. What seems clear is that no one is actually reading WHY I think you're scum and is just making dumb assessments based on the last couple of things I've said.-
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nydushermain Goon
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FOR THE RECORD, I didn't want to mention that at all because I realized what I said after I said it and that's not my playstyle to try to be townread off a slip but I come from a video mafia community where the smallest game size has 3 mafia.In post 219, Accountant wrote:
If we're talking about forced townslips, then I think his "there are 3 scum in the game" thing qualifies just as well.In post 217, Ramcius wrote:and you saying you don't know anyone alignment in this game, it's so forced townslip-
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nydushermain Goon
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He didn't agree for that reason, but your passiveness.In post 218, Accountant wrote:Show me where Pepchoninga agreed with your posts about me being scum because I said "mafia" instead of "they".-
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nydushermain Goon
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Honestly, there's a good chance he's going to flip town. 3 lurkers out of 9 players, 2 being mafia? That's just a good statistic for him. That's all I have on him. If you say you can't see me as town because you PERSONALLY can't see yourself playing the way I have, that's fine. If you're so thick headed that you can't see people having different playstyles compared to you, by all means, lynch me. I still think you're town but you're heading in a horrible direction.In post 217, Ramcius wrote:
i can't see your actions as a town, cause i never would do this as a town, and i would always do so as a scum, and just 1 more time - WE WASN"T GOING LYNCH DBW - but you want it, aren't you? Cause you know he's gonna flip town, and you saying you don't know anyone alignment in this game, it's so forced townslip, i don't see town saying something like that, and for end, you never lynch active person on hunch early - you don't want end game with lurkers, been there, i know what i'm saying, unless you scum, then you want that, easier pull ML with lurkers in endIn post 208, nydushermain wrote:
How do I want him dead? You're talking as if I'm coming from the mindset of scum but I want you to try to see if I can come up with the same shit I posted if I'm town. I don't know anyone's alignment this game. I LOVE digging through history and seeing who can be with who, whether I believe this person genuinely pushed on town or scum, etc. If DBW gets lynched, which I'm okay with because I don't know if I'm right on accountant, then fine, we lynch him. Any sort of alignment reveal helps me because I can dig into ISOs after. However, the person I read the scummiest is accountant and would I prefer a lynch on him? ABSOLUTELY and I've stated my reasons why. This doesn't mean that I'm trying to get some sort of "town cred" if DBW flips town. It means that I don't have a town read on DBW so there's a chance that he can be scum in my mind.In post 205, Ramcius wrote:
exactly, you didn't do anything to make him talk, you simply say he can be town or scum, considering he said nothing useful yet, everyone can say same, and in different from you, we tried get him talking, but you don't want it, you just want him dead and see flip townIn post 202, nydushermain wrote:
And what? I never implicated that I'd "berate people" or whatever for being potentially wrong on DBW. I presented both sides of him being scum or town.In post 199, Ramcius wrote:Yes, you wait flip to trump after and tell how wrong wee wee and line up some ML, i don't see you as a town, you don't try solve DBW situation, you want him lynched, and your push on accountant based just on meta from reading other games is joke, you say we should vote our top scumread? i'm up for it
VOTE: Nydushermain-
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nydushermain Goon
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In post 216, Accountant wrote:
If you acknowledge that nobody else is convinced by your extremely shoddy line of logic about why I'm scum, then if you were really convinced I'm scum you'd be trying to come up with new, more convincing lines of logic. That's what you would be focused on. The idea of letting a suboptimal lynch run through would never cross your mind at all, unless you were a player who was particularly doubtful of themselves or unconfident in their scumhunting - which doesn't fit with what you've shown us at all.In post 214, nydushermain wrote:Actually, pepchoninga gave a very similar reason to me for thinking you were scum. I pinged him to jump on the wagon with me. It doesn't seem clear at all. What seems clear is that no one is actually reading WHY I think you're scum and is just making dumb assessments based on the last couple of things I've said.
But your reason was different. Pepchoninga and I came to FOSing accountant for the same reason but it seems like we came across it separately.In post 224, Ramcius wrote:is it bussing Pepchonga? Cause me and Carloux too accused Accountant early in game, yet you ignored that fact and say on Pepchonga scumread Accountant, hence i never said i changed my mind on Accountant, i still don't trust, but i rather go in end game with Accountant than DBW, Pepchonga or other lurker-
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nydushermain Goon
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I don't know that 2 mafia are in the lurkers. They might literally all be town which is why I PREFER a lynch on someone who I think has done things scummy. There very well could be 2 mafia though in the lurkers as well and I could be tunneling on someone who's town because the mafia just hasn't done anything scummy because they haven't done anything period.In post 227, Ramcius wrote:
and how you know both mafia are in lurkers? So, tell me your playstyle - have strong read on someone, call for lynch, and then just lay back and watch town lynch lurker (and just push that too, without jumping wagon), telling to everyone lurker might flip town, when confronted, changed mind on lurker most likely flip scum, do i do it right in guessing your style?In post 223, nydushermain wrote:Honestly, there's a good chance he's going to flip town. 3 lurkers out of 9 players, 2 being mafia? That's just a good statistic for him. That's all I have on him. If you say you can't see me as town because you PERSONALLY can't see yourself playing the way I have, that's fine. If you're so thick headed that you can't see people having different playstyles compared to you, by all means, lynch me. I still think you're town but you're heading in a horrible direction.
In terms of playstyle, I'm the type of person who reevaluates constantly. Granted, I haven't shown that with accountant, look at my reads on other people. Pretty sure people have been going all over the place in terms of what I think in terms of their alignment. I give a lot of my opinions openly in the heat of the moment. I may contradict myself but my opinion constantly evolves. I think I said in the past that I'd offer a list of reads but I didn't because I couldn't. Everytime I tried to write up a list, the reads changed and I reread ISOs. Who do I push on? I push on people who I think are scum and I try to get them lynched because I prefer it over someone who I don't think has done anything at all. If these people KEEP lurking throughout the game, then I'll lynch them. The best case scenario is that they get replaced and we end up with someone active who will actually give a hint of their alignment.-
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nydushermain Goon
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Trust me when I say if I townread the guy, I'd be fighting harder. He's a null read so I'm not fighting it but trying to also get you lynched.In post 232, Accountant wrote:
That doesn't explainIn post 220, nydushermain wrote:The problem here is that the notes I've made are in my head. If I could go back in time and make specific bookmarks of everything I've seen in your past games, I would but at the time, I was mostly looking for where you ended up being scum. Yes, I can assure you that I've been trying in my head to solve your alignment and maybe I'm doing it poorly in the environment of forum mafia because I'm not giving concrete evidence but trust me when I say I've tried to consider you as town. Confirmation bias is hard to overcome and to me, you're scummier than not.anything. I'm asking why you seem to not be fighting very hard against a lynch you've acknowledge yourself as suboptimal. Yes, it's not the worst lynch in the world, there's still a chance of DBW being scum. But any reasonable town who wants to win does not want "merely passable" lynches. They want thebest possible lynchevery single day. There is absolutely 0 reason for you as town to not care that the lynch that we are having is not the best possible lynch unless you don't care about town executing the best possible lynch. And only scum has that kind of thinking.-
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nydushermain Goon
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103In post 235, Ramcius wrote:
then who are scum?In post 233, Gamma Emerald wrote:The way ny used meta doesn't feel like a scum use, also the fact he went back after realizing his analysis was off.-
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nydushermain Goon
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nydushermain Goon
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But these are the two people with the smallest ISOs. Surely if you scumread them, DBW being your largest scum, you could easily read and remember the reason? I can understand not being able to give a strong read on me, ramcius, accountant, etc. because we've had huge ISOs and notes are probably very useful for us but these guys have no content at all.In post 240, Gamma Emerald wrote:I deleted my notes accidentally so I don't know my exact reasoning. I really just hope one more person towntells so I can PoE the game.-
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nydushermain Goon
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That was me. But it wasn't because of the IC posting, but the content of it. You noted that before.In post 243, Gamma Emerald wrote:I believe I scumread Pep for SRing Accountant for IC posting-
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nydushermain Goon
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nydushermain Goon
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Honestly, I think I could be wrong on accountant and just letting confirmation bias get in the way. I just can't shake this feeling though that he's scum.In post 245, Gamma Emerald wrote:
Some TRs have gotten stronger but my SRs are still similar.In post 242, Ramcius wrote:so, your reads haven't changed after all this discussion? Cause that was post 103, now we at 240
Though tbqh I think scum is just letting my and Accountant slap fight. I want more from Charloux, Pepcho, and DBW-
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nydushermain Goon
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nydushermain Goon
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nydushermain Goon
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gl
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nydushermain Goon
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In post 267, Mewtaph wrote:Why he made his first post concerning DBW in the first place. If you look at the first post he makes on DBW, it looks and feels like a standalone that he'd leave by itself if you didn't vote him straight afterwards.
1. Not lining up lynches, gave a list of people I'd lynch in order which is a way in video mafia of saying "these are my top scum"In post 271, Accountant wrote:Okay I think we're talking past each other a little bit at this point.
Let me summarize my case.
WHY IS NYDUSHER SCUM:
- lines up lynches
- says he wants to lynch me over DBW but looks like he doesn't really care
- tries to pass off what is essentially a gut read as a legitimate read
Now, your turn.
2. I do want to lynch you over DBW but it's alright that he gets lynched fmpov
3. It was a legitimate read that turned into ALSO being a gut read on top of it-
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nydushermain Goon
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Okay sir, if you're actually mafia, constantly saying I don't back it up with actions is going to make me your absolute worst nightmare because I'm this close to thread diving you again and flooding this game with posts from other games and how differently you play in them.In post 275, Accountant wrote:
I don't buy that his weak on me is read. He's been fairly stubborn about saying that I am scum, but doesn't back it up with actions.In post 272, Mewtaph wrote:He's stated multiple times in thread that he's not completely sure of his read on you, this could be an explanation of why it looks like he doesn't care/seems unsure. This is a valid point, he says "w/e because he can still be scum", now I'd prefer for a less pressure filled environment to question him in rather than someone voting him and questioning him at the same time.-
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nydushermain Goon
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Because I thought about it. Things change when I first read things versus when I think of things.In post 286, Ramcius wrote:
Yes, as time goes on, but he changed opinion on you without any good reason, at first he was against your lynch (which wasn't planned) and after he lay back and say "ok, lynch DBW, i just want see him flip", i could accept, if you came and said something, so he was ok with your lynch, but you didn't, and it's only Nys, who want you dead, and Gamma, but he forgot why scumread you, so, i don't count himIn post 285, DeathByWobbuffet wrote:Also, Ramcius, I don't quite understand what you're trying to say there. How does the fact that he's changing his opinion make him scum? It's perfectly reasonable for him to change his reads as time goes on.-
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nydushermain Goon
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I didn't agree that there were 2 mafia in the lurking people -_- . You asked me if there could be and I said yes. I feel like there's a language barrier here and you're just not understanding exactly what I'm saying.In post 282, Ramcius wrote:If we continue this way, we end up with 9 townies in here, since seems everyone is town in this game So maybe start suggesting lynch targets, not just defending everyone, and i say that to all, cause deadline is coming, and i still don't like Nys, nothing make sense to me from town POV, he changes his position all the time, first he say we shouldn't lynch DBW (ignoring me and Charloux clearly stating we just want DBW talk, not lynch), going same even after i explain several times we not going lynch DBW, and he was lining lynches there, after he agreed and said both mafia are in 3 lurking people (weird statement from town), he's case on Accountant make no sense, something he found in other Accountant game, and we should now go and find that game, cause he didn't said what was different in that game from other 9 Accountant town games, and why here it's similar to that scum game, he inconsistent in all he do, yes, he said he changes his minds all time, but he was holding on DBW lynch idea so hard despite telling him no one is going lynch