Open 583: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[Heartless]

/red 5 standing by

[Heartless]

SCREW YOU JACKAL MY STAR WARS REFERENCES ARE AWESOME

[Heartless]

tth's internet crush is scum, btw

[Heartless]

LOL you assume i was talking about you

[Heartless]

VOTE: copper

i have to go feed my dog and wipe my butt now
i'll see ya'll later

[Heartless]

copper, you ever played w/ mastin scum before?

[Heartless]

nvr mind you answered that

copper, have you played with mastin before?

Nope, I have read some of her guides.

[Heartless]

Why is "try harding" a scumtell?

well
there's that you're using 1-sided meta to plop down a read on gooey null-ness

[Heartless]

eyestott's another good vote

[Heartless]

who am i whats my name what am i doing

[Heartless]

Heartless:

Where are you? I want to talk some.

in the middle of fucking nowhere with people i hate

[Heartless]

GODDAMMIT
can't
get
a moment for this

bjkl;asjifpoewapomfceas

[Heartless]

Someone slipping and you are waiting form them to confirm it with some other action?

Basically?

Yes.

But I can't say another word without compromising the read.

lolmastin you suck at being coy. i know you mean me b/c of the glacially slow start.

unfortunately neither tth or i have enough uninterrupted time to be able to do anything meaningful.

[Heartless]

antihero here

hold on to your dooky

[Heartless]

re: dodge's Post 87 about eyestott; the killa vote rubbed me the wrong way b/c he just summarized killa's play w/ the vote in Post 67 w/o actually connecting that to the vote. it's floaty logic that doesn't really go anywhere and just rode the killa hate of the time.

[Heartless]

brb

[Heartless]

oh awesome

mastin's scum here....

[Heartless]

dave is a

LOSER

wagon

[Heartless]

yeah, how mastin is ignoring the hammy eyestott/dodgy scum theatre to chase after me (who's time is limited AND TTH CAME IN THE THREAD AND EXPLICITLY SAID SO) is just so fucking beyond me

[Heartless]

holy shit this beast read is overdone too

[[[
eyestott
dodgy
mastin
//////
]

[Heartless]

tth has the vote, but if you vote one of those 3 good things will follow

[Heartless]

oh hey mastin

here and caught up as i'm gonna' be right now. i
seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee you at the bottom

what the hell were you waiting on me for?

[Heartless]

i have to go pee now, but the dodgy/eyestott thing is overdone and eyestott is firmly avoiding doing anything productive

yoda may also be an ok vote, but let's see what tth says

[Heartless]

finishing almost all of his posts saying he is short on time

He's doing that for me. I was threatening to kick his ass if he didn't get to it soon.

The way this hydra works: Anti gets the first crack at it and I do the second reading with his reads in mind. This system's gotten really good results so far since Anti has a knack for getting good first impressions and I'm better at zeroing in on details that he glosses over.

That said, I'll be doing my read of this game tonight.

-TTH

[Heartless]

That leaves dave (scum), Heartless, eyestott, and dodgy. And I think the scumteam's in there.

so your scumlist is the EXACT SAME as mine minus dave / switching us?

...

[Heartless]

giving too much thought about their individual alignments or exposing himself by giving a read on the situation.

there's a glaring problem w/ the dave wagon.

it's that for a while
, it was AN UNCONTESTED wagon. people seem to have risen to the occasion as of late and pointed this out, but if you're going to say dave is scum, you have to work from the premise he was getting the EVERLOVING SHIT bussed out of him at the beginning or that he's an SK

that's indicative of newbscum and no one on that wagon (except maybe the hydra of people i've never heard of) fits the profile.

[Heartless]

I have trouble believing this. dodgy vs. eyestott felt pretty genuine to me and basing mastin scum read solely under the assumption that dodgy/eyestott are scum seems like a stretch right now. +Scum points

mmmmmmmmmmm not really

mastin read is based on
>the dave scumread is pretty nonsensical
>it's only supported by "if i said it, it wouldn't make sense". never stopped her from trying before
>mastin knows me and KNOWS that my scumgame is made up of prod dodges but seems to be applying that in the most superficial manner possible here

usually w/ mastin town, i see a sweet spot in the scum reads where i think "yeah, that sounds right" and that is NOTABLY absent in this game.


WHERE'S THE BEEF?

[Heartless]

you know, actually, i'm looking at the vote counts and i think tean is a scum anchor wagon. it's been static from the beginning and it's momentum is just PLOP sitting there.

[Heartless]

you know, actually, i'm looking at the vote counts and i think tean is a scum anchor wagon. it's been static from the beginning and it's momentum is just PLOP sitting there.

and it's no good to begin with, either

killa/anen, mastin, copper
killa/anen, dodgy, dave
killa, anen, eyestott/dodgy

[Heartless]

killa/anen, mastin, copper
killa/anen, dodgy, dave
killa, anen, eyestott/dodgy

I think the first one is probably your best effort, Anti. I'll get into a few things.

-TTH

[Heartless]

Heartless (TTH side), what's your read on:

- Dave
- Aneninen
- Eyes vs Dodgy

I'll get to all these, but I

would

like to talk with you about your mastin read.

I think mastin is scummy. The major red flag is that there's a chasm between the apparent confidence in the reads and the way the vote is being treated. From "go" we see that mastin suspects dave in Post 9. Even though she claims that it was a sort of "reaction test" later in Post 155, she still makes it clear she's still adamant that dave is scum. Even a rudimentary explanation deeper than " throwing just about every newbscum tell in the book." is never offered, and there's little more than bluster behind the read. What's really telling to me is how mastin behaves when the wagon starts to falter, though. With the rise of the eyestott counterwagon, she happily trades a dave vote for the counterwagon vote in Post 448. By the way, we're never treated as to why she thinks eyestott is scum either. The vote comes off more as a "Haha, BBT! Take that!" Bailing on the dave wagon like that for a counterwagon on eyestott makes very little sense given the confidence in the davesaz read

and

in the context of mastin's other reads. With the exception of eyestott, she was townreading the dave wagon, but the eyestott wagon contains strong-"scumread" dave and is championed by mild scumread dodgy (Post 442). According to the stated beliefs, the dave wagon would be

far

superior to the eyestott wagon and that's where her vote should remain as she tries to get traction for the wagon by giving any semblance of reasoning (which she's failed to do). This looks like... what did Anti call it? "Riding the hate." And it's not like mastin hasn't been on at all and just hasn't had time to write a case. She may be busy with things in life, but she's had plenty of time to go off on BBT and Anti. I think she has time to post a sentence or two about how dave is so obviously scum and what exact newbscum tells he's dropping.

In short, the jump from the dave wagon to the eyestott wagon makes no sense from the perspective of town with as strong of a scumread as mastin apparently had and it doesn't follow from anything mastin's said or fit in with mastin's other reads.

If anyone has an alternative hypothesis for the reasoning behind the vote change, please let me hear it. Copper, I'm especially talking to you.

-TTH

[Heartless]

I'm not inclined to think temperament is influenced by the color of the card you draw. If you're choleric or in a bad mood, holding a red card isn't going to make you suddenly not in a bad mood.

-TTH

[Heartless]

Heartless (TTH side), what's your read on:

- Dave
- Aneninen
- Eyes vs Dodgy

Right now, I'm working from townreads on: davesaz, eyestott, dodgy, BlueBloodedToffee, Tean Samargo, and Wickedestjr for varying reasons.

There's a couple reasons I think dave is probably town here. I've had experience with him both as a town special and a vanilla. His claimed vanilla status here makes sense in context with his play in m9++. The other game I saw him in where he was a special was C9++. In C9++, both Anti and I scum read him because he tended to more stick to the periphery of the discussion, which I now ascribe to being a special and wanting to play conservatively. I strongly suspect his scum play style is similar to what we saw in C9++ because the survivalist mindset is a shared trait between scum and town specials.
Another cue is what Antihero already brought up about dave being bussed by his teammates. When you examine the wagon dynamics and how the early dave wagon went down, in order to think dave is scum you have to conclude he was being mercilessly bussed or he's a serial killer. A serial killer is a 50/50 chance and can't be intelligently speculated on right now and the "merciless bussing" theory make the most sense if copper and/or mastin2 were scum with him and exited the wagon at the first viable opportunity. Intuition says this isn't the case since mastin herself wrote a long Mafia Discussion article about how people shouldn't bus and she specifically said at one time that bussing on Day 1 was especially unwise.

Independent of anything else, dodgy's reaction to eyestott's dave vote in Post 212 is more likely to come from town who has second thoughts than scum either bussing or voting a mislynch wagon. dodgy's read on eyestott tracks well across the ISO as well. The interaction with the dave read is flexible and is the opposite of the stiffness and stilted-ness I expect to see from scum in their reads.

Eyestott's activity itself isn't anything to write home about, but the wagon dynamics make me think he's more likely town than not. The case on him essentially boils down to him not presenting his killa opinion in such-and-such a way, which is actually pretty speculative. And, as eyestott himself pointed out, he seems to be the latest target of the serial wagoning. To explain the rise of his wagon you either have to invoke the possibility of an SK again or you have to argue that scum just randomly decided to bus out of the blue.

Furthermore, the general dynamics of the game are more consistent with it being "town vs town." So far, I've found that arguments that in actuality

aren't

"Town v Town" are quick to be labeled as such by general consensus. If one of their teammates are involved in an argument, buddies usually write off the whole dispute as "TvT" or take their buddy's side. Real "TvT" arguments are usually taken advantage of, which is what I think we're seeing here. The vote count reflects that the argument is lopsided as eyestott has accumulated 5 votes to dodgy's one. If any scum are involved, you have to dip into theories like "eyestott's getting bussed" or "dodgy's scum and just winning the argument" neither of which I agree with.

One thing Antihero

did

point out that probably has a lot of merit is that there have been a couple vote parkers on Tean since Vote Count 1.2, back on page 10 and the wagon hasn't shown much signs of life or hope but there they remain. I'll be reviewing killapenguin and Aneninen next time I look at this.

-TTH (credit to Antihero for a few ideas)

[Heartless]

VOTE: Mastin

And now I have to think about why you're latching onto my mastin case.

-TTH

[Heartless]

What sort of pigeon poop was that?!
I think both Penguin and me provided our reasons for being on that wagon.

Say what you want about bird excrement, but Antihero has a pretty irritating habit of being right. My gut tells me this is one of those times.

Who else besides Tean are you scumreading? (I don't care if you said them before, restate them.)

-TTH

[Heartless]

THINK ABOUT WHAT THAT MEASN IN THE CONTEXCT OF FUCKING MASTIN. MASTIN.

You are correct. I do not know your life. I do not know how you think. I would never presume to know that or to demand things that exceed your time constraints.

However, if you can engage BBT and tell him things like "FUCK YOUR "no meta" POLICY, GO READ LITERALLY ANY FUCKING GODDAMNED MASTOWN GAME YOU PIECE OF SHIT." then I would think you can drop a quick sentence or two saying "this is the newbscumtell dave's dropping." Regardless of how busy you are, I say that if you have time to tell Anti to start towning things up, you can give us at least a tiny peek into the black box either the davesaz or eyestott reads are coming out of.

-TTH

[Heartless]

THINK ABOUT WHAT THAT MEASN IN THE CONTEXCT OF FUCKING MASTIN. MASTIN.

mastin...

...she's not going to get this

[Heartless]

Let's leave associations out of it for a moment, what do you think of Aneninen's posts in isolation?

well the most recent reads list is fucking horrendous so there's that

[Heartless]

ok, so you agree w/ my "fucking horrendous" assessment of the reads list, but.....

...

then he's town for it?

you lost me

[Heartless]

read that wrong the first time, i see what you're talking about now

except your standards for meta are just... exaggeratedly high... :\

[Heartless]

'mkay...

so how does the fact that the game you cited was his first time as scum factor into this meta analysis?

[Heartless]

...

[Heartless]

I am supremely confident there is at least one scum in Killa/Anen.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Heartless]

I still don't like this eyestott bandwagon. Is he at L-2 or L-1? Please don't lynch him. I'll try to encourage a better alternative.

the better alternative is tean?

...really...?

[Heartless]

For the record (talking about anchors) is your vote on me for reasons not related to RVS anymore? It would be funny if your own read implicates you.

i'm the second fiddle here. the vote is tth's. from what i've heard she still hasn't fully caught up w/ everything, but... you know... tick-tock tth 4 days.

[Heartless]

FML with these early claims, remove your votes from Eyes.

this post pings me

how was eyestott's claim premature and what's your quarrel w/ that, ESPECIALLY considering beast's Post 532

[Heartless]

But in the absence of one:

VOTE: Dodgy

i thought you were schooling me about how the eyestott/dodgy thing was SO DAMN GENUINE a while back

[Heartless]

@All
What do you think about Killa, that L-1 in the middle of the discussion about him and Aneninen being on Tean as a possible anchor wagon for scum is a problem for me.

I saw the term anchor wagon a couple of times and forgot to ask what the term means.

A place where scum park their votes

while waiting to see on whom they should jump on

.

when i use the term "anchor" i'm talking about a place where scum park their votes BECAUSE THEY'RE COUNTING ON THE WAGON THEY'RE VOTING TO FAIL. it's good for scum because it avoids the immediate scrutiny that comes with being on the lynch wagon, so they intentionally choose a LOSER.

which....... describes tean since the reasoning behind that wagon is somewhere between jack and shit

[Heartless]

That was not me, I told you Aneninen was town.

who was the one telling me all about how eyestott and dodgy weren't scum together when i mentioned i thought it was scum theater?

i could've sworn it was you...

[Heartless]

He was not at L-1 and nobody stated intent to hammer on him.

that's not a hard and fast rule. common sense can allow someone to claim earlier. with a few days to deadline, eyestott's timing doesn't bother me.

[Heartless]

VET'S reads list is nothing short of heinous and scummy as shit

[Heartless]

I'm not all that confident in my reads yet. I have a hard time picking out things on D1.

'mkay well let's start w/ the obvious stuff:

I believe eyestott claim at this point. The chance of another full tracker is small enough that if another one was out there, the tiny chance of outing of two PR would be worth much more likely D1 scum lynch. Since no one has challenged it I'm going to assume it is valid. That puts him pretty firmly in town for now.

forget the counterclaim

the chances of there being zero I's (which you wouldn't know w/o a massclaim) is 32%. that's not nothing. in fact, that's almost a third.

if you want to say eyestott is town b/c of wagon dynamics / the case on him/ what have you, or whatever tth was talking about, that's one thing. to say he's town based JUST on a claim that could go 68/32 shows a level of skepticism that's shockingly low.

[Heartless]

/ugh

hate to pooh-pooh a tth scumread b/c that usually doesn't end well, but i don't think mastin's scum here exactly BECAUSE of the rxns to the attacks. it feels like tth hit a nerve for mastin that's reminiscent of what happened in ikaruga re:talah.
tth just..... just trust me on this one (i know you don't want to)

given all the townreads ur working from tth
,i think the vote should go on:
copper/vettrock/killa/anen

^^^^^^^any of those

[Heartless]

another project for you tth: think about the wicked read considering how ass-backwards the reads list is
b/c idgi

[Heartless]

VET'S reads list is nothing short of heinous and scummy as shit

I will somewhat agree with heinous, but not scummy. Some people are good with D1 reads and digesting massive amount of information quickly, but I'm not one of those people. I'll continue to provide input, and I should have some more time now for some analysis.

(Honestly, as a vig I'd frankly just no-kill and play as if vanilla unless I deemed it necessary to make a kill.)

I general I agree with this, and how I would play it, especially early in the game. I think you are more likely to help scum than town. Late in the game however there may be a good case to use it.

tth's internet crush is scum, btw

For reference, who is tth's internet crush?

I'm not a good one for informationless RVS cases, but I think I can contribute more as we move along.

yet you voted me on no information?

My vote on you was an RVS vote. Its only purpose is to get the game moving. As RVS votes move around information is created.

perhaps i misunderstood you when you said you werent a good one for informationless rvs cases? i read that as you saying youre not a fan of RVS voting. or did you mean something else?

Since I didn't really answer this. I acknowledge RVS is a necessary part of the game. I have a hard time building any kind of a case or putting things together early in the game as I don't think there is much to go off of. I'd ideally start in D2, but the problem with replacing in, is you are replacing in with an existing history, which I don't really like either.

i was talking about copper, i was yanking his and tth's chain though.
this is your idea of analysis? commenting on an off-the-cuff comment from mastin about a hypothetical vig question and asking about a joke i made on page 2?

[Heartless]

oh i'm dancin' with myself
oh i'm
dancin'
with
myself
well there's nothin' to

lose

and there's nothin' to

prove

i'll be dancin with myself

tth is swamped right now so i'm taking executive action
reaffirming
VOTE: copper

[Heartless]

,i think the vote should go on:
copper/vettrock/killa/anen

I'll take another look at copper and anen, but I wouldn't vote there right now because while I may vaguely understand the reasons for copper maybe being scum, I simply don't see either as being scum now. I also don't really see killa as scum, though I don't particularly see killa as town, either. (Just a guttown at this point.) Would vote vettock, though.

here, let's make it a little less vague then:

the interactions w/ this hydra (between me and tth) alone is pretty sketch because the progression is nonsensical and the disparity between the treatment of the heads is strikingly random. he was scumreading me Post 469 for reasons that were pretty much, "i don't like him and his posting style" and, specifically, he didn't like how i was pushing you because he viewed your line of questioning as something valid, so OBVIOUSLY he put some kind of credence into your opinion

tth comes in and

SUDDENLY

things change. somehow when she puts a bib on him and starts the spoonfeeding
,your reads actually DON'T track so great anymore and the whole "this is mastin-town's meta" fantasy that we were hearing about earlier in the game burns to the ground RIGHT quick.

hell, for all that, the interactions w/ tth aren't great either. more than anything all he did was slam the breaks on pushing me once he saw her coming. for the lip service about how he thought she was town, there's not much actual cooperation going, and any questioning is fairly superficial and doesn't have any follow up (see: thoughts on dave and eyestott vs dodgy). she went through the trouble of hashing out her townreads in Post 504 and copper doesn't seem to give two shits. what was it, didn't want to pick on someone his own size? b/c the dynamic i'm seeing RIGHT NOW between two people who are supposed to have a rapport from previous games is pretty goddamn dysfunctional and it looks like he's afraid of her because all the interactions are about as deep as a dime.

the rxn to the eyestott claim in Post 549 is also very NOT town b/c it overplays the indignation about an "early" claim and the needless "FML" stands in HUGE contrast to this whole "logic-y" persona that's been going the whole game. coppers been on him nearly the whole game, but somehow he now wants to look at me and argue that MAYBE IN THE VERY SMALL WINDOW OF TIME BETWEEN NOW AND DEADLINE he was going to change his mind and ease up off eyestott which is disingenuous at best.

...and for his apparent distaste for my glibness to mastin, he seems to gave gotten the art of potshot attacks perfected. case in point, Post 713 re: anen. a while back, i got taken

down

to

clown

town

and told that anen WAS SO BEAUTIFULLY TOWN because of style from two previous games (one of which he wasn't even there for). what did it take for this journey to meta never-never land to go to doo-doo?
anen taking his townread back
(coincidentally, this is the most town anen's been all game)

...and all the sudden BTT SUCKS, GUYS...

cutting off threats seems to be an important thing now. wonder how long it's going to take copper to start magically "scumreading" me.

[Heartless]

my solution is to sit alone in a dark room and fester on my negative emotions until i convince myself beyond a shadow of a doubt that i'm a worthless piece of shit, my heart turns cold, and i slowly descend into madness

it's fun

[Heartless]

while we're on the subject of funhouse mirror reads progressions, why don't you walk us through your anen one?

plzthnx w/ all the sugar on top?

[Heartless]

^^^^that was at copper, btw

[Heartless]

arthritic backpedal......
crappy appeal to mastin........

yeah, keep those votes coming ppl

[Heartless]

In general, I've found the best cure for that is for day to end and us to have a flip, so on that note, probably gonna switch to copper, but...well, I just don't know. I have no thoughts on town or scum. But this isn't null. This isn't ambivalence. Null is there's thoughts but no read. (Except true null, when there's no posting thus nothing.) Ambivalence is feeling both ways. But copper right now is absolute absence of thought.

I suppose there's some ambivalence in joining, in that I half-expect I'll regret it and I'm half-expecting I'll regret

not

joining it. But I'm not sure how to better explain it than that.

Really, Mastin? My vote on Eyestott at the moment is for the exact same wishy-washy shit read that this is. I have no problem with the choice of target but your going to have to qualify it better than that.

After all you did say in 432that copper was cemented as town, so what changed?

given the claim and the reactions to it so far, do you expect the eyestott wagon to be successful?

[Heartless]

Can you please call your sister and let her play?

she said she'd probably get to this later tonight

looks like you're stuck with me for now mr sugarpants

[Heartless]

- I have no particular like or dislike of your posting style, nor do I like or dislike any posting style (maybe I'm not a big fan of giant walls one after the other) so this has nothing to do with how I viewed you early game, which was characterized by that associative read Dave dropped on you in lieu of any actual content from you guys, so why do you think I do?

because you're scumreading me saying that i was short on time and that's how i post. i don't filter myself and i let whatever verbal diarrhea spew forth. if a bird flies by and shits on my head, i would type that without a second thought. when i said i needed to go feed my dogs and wipe my butt, i wasn't kidding. when i said "brb" and complained about getting interrupted it's because i sat down w/ the intention of reading the game and i either get a phone call or someone approaches me and asks me to do something (which i do b/c i'm a sucker).

i don't know, i also get the vibe you don't like me very much. i get that from a lot of people and i'm kind of an unlikable prick, so i get it.

- OBVIOUSLY is not very obvious to me, my own opinion of the matter is that asking you to contribute can only be seen as townie or neutral, the fact you were scumreading her for it and went on whining about why she picked you in particular instead of going on the Dodgy/Eyes theatre was also strange, as if you can only point out one thing at a time, so I did not like that post and I said so, this is not directly connected to Mastin's alignment so why do you make the connection?

b/c i have a pre-existing rapport w/ mastin that i don't have with either dodgy or eyes. mastin's the person i know best on this player list so my early efforts are going to go on her especially when i'm running short on time.

[Heartless]

- OBVIOUSLY is not very obvious to me, my own opinion of the matter is that asking you to contribute can only be seen as townie or neutral, the fact you were scumreading her for it and went on whining about why she picked you in particular instead of going on the Dodgy/Eyes theatre was also strange, as if you can only point out one thing at a time, so I did not like that post and I said so, this is not directly connected to Mastin's alignment so why do you make the connection?

>_>

you make a fanboy entrance of "i've read your guides" to mastin, you follow mastin's lead on davesaz, and now you're telling me it WASN'T obvious you don't put any stock in her opinions?

what
is
all
this
horse
shitfjdklsajiesjoauwfffffijesfi;asg

[Heartless]

...or wait a second... are you saying you WEREN'T townreading mastin at the time? is that the argument?

because i don't believe that

[Heartless]

@ copper I'm not following your sudden halt on the Eyestott wagon or you lamenting his early role claim (that you were partly responsible for) only for you to ask that more Trackers out themselves??

plz fill in the blank

"the reason i'm NOT voting copper right now is ___________"

[Heartless]

also killa my last question wasn't rhetorical

what are your expectations for achieving an eyestott lynch
b/c i'm not voting eyestott today

[Heartless]

I am saying I would not have liked that post if you directed it to Davesaz, my biggest scumread at the time, my read on Mastin at the time (which I already told you was leaning town) is besides the point and I want to know why you made that connection.

usually when you call someone down for a bad attack, it stands to reason the attack-ee is more likely town than not.

you also said something about how mastin's line of questioning was "valid" or something like that, so it stands to reason you were townreading mastin, yes?

[Heartless]

hey anen

i'm watching this show called intervention and thinking about how much of a worthless waste of oxygen i am and how nobody would be sad if i fell into a volcano tomorrow

how's your downward spiral of existential despair going so far?

[Heartless]

damn....

i am not drunk enough right now

[Heartless]

guys i might cough up my lungs up any second now

if i disappear, it probably means i died in this hilariously cartoonish way

[Heartless]

damn what the hell was i doing last night?

...that's p fucked up...

[Heartless]

Will lynch bettock in a heartbeat.

yep
VOTE: vettrock

[Heartless]

actually......

copper's claim looks really shoehorned

[Heartless]

I blame TTH for not being around if they are town because that ruined my plan a) after I joined this game just cause she asked me to, thanks bud, the best strat was to play scummy enough to potentially survive to lylo and more or less seal the win by baiting a quick hammer, that's why I naked voted and followed reads a lot, she should have known I don't play like this as scum and could relieve some pressure but her brother can't read me or is pushing a scum agenda, I think the first is more likely.

if your plan was that tth was going to see something in your meta, that's not really fitting w/ what i'm seeing when i look back

when tth gave the thumbs up to my theory of you/mastin being buddies in Post 486, you said something about it making sense in context of the mastin read in Post 490. if you really expected her to see that your meta wasn't meshing up w/ your scum meta, why didn't you say anything at the time? when tth left you off her town list, that seems like the point you would pipe up and say something if you were really planning on her carrying you through day play.

this strategy isn't adding up
VOTE: copper

[Heartless]

'mkay so going back to tth's town block from a while ago.......

Right now, I'm working from townreads on: davesaz, eyestott, dodgy, BlueBloodedToffee, Tean Samargo, and Wickedestjr for varying reasons.

dave's kind of been fading into the background as of late. after his wagon died down. (yikes)

i think tth's point about eyestott+dodgy and reading around the argument is valid. plus i think dodgy's been decently town lately. sticking w/ those reads.

yeah, agree w/ the bbt read too.

i'm looking over tean right now and...... their stuff isn't really as good as i remember it being. i thought the start was ok but now they're just kind of floating around (i see something about how they think dodgy vs eyes is tvs, but then the votes on..........dave,? that read seems stale and hasn't been revisited recently. what's up with that?) they're not really....going anywhere or getting much done despite the fact they've posted a couple walls recently batting down wicked's attack and talking about eyesvdodge (relatively held back though)

wicked's also p town.

[Heartless]

either ending up on a random guy that is easy to push like vettrock

you think vettrock has gotten too much scrutiny?
i don't think he's under enough considering his play

from what i'm remembering, the only ppl entertaining the idea of lynching him are me, mastin, and dodgy. and bbt is the only other person who's even bothered to ask him why his reads are the way they are. everyone else seems perfectly content to whistle a tune and look the other way.

[Heartless]

not in the same league as beast. beast has graduated to full blown lurker. vettrock is still posting, but choosing to post about trivial stuff like asking me what i was teasing tth about on page 2 and posting unsubstantiated reads and later waving them off as "oh i'm just not good at day 1" or "poe" (/fart).


with beast, he's just not even here or putting in any effort whatsoever. with vettrock, there's clearly an energy expenditure here, but it's not clear towards what. whatever it is, it's not refining the reads in a meaningful way, and that's what town does.

[Heartless]

I waited to see if there was going to be a shift after I softed to Mastin and she tried to move it off of me, but since there wasn't and I agree that deadline lynches are bad for town this became the next best play, I would not have claimed any other power role but if we are going to use mine we might as well get the most out of it.

I also am still unsure if Mastin is town for it or she was happy killing me off during the night so I wanted to share this, personally I am leaning town.

I can't find this soft you claim to have wafted in Mastin's direction.
In the meantime, vengeful is just about the best scum fake claim there is.
VOTE: copper223

anything to add other than glomming onto what i already said?

you should...like... post reads

[Heartless]

...so mastin was crumbing for you...?

idgi

[Heartless]

lol mastin says that phrase all the time

[Heartless]

the dave read is so stale and that last post was so horrible
UNVOTE:

if copper is town he it's definitely better to have him alive than dead. the vig shot's not worth it.

[Heartless]

this game is in dire need

of some TTH

[Heartless]

VOTE: dave

[Heartless]

Seriously, what the hell?

We've had wagons on myself, eyestott, and copper. All 3 of us claimed, and according to the claims we're all town.
If there is a fake claim, vengeful would be it. Even if there is also a vig, it would be KK and thus a counter is meaningless. At least with II, the 2nd tracker is one-shot and confirms the existence of a full.

Assuming the 3 wagons are all on town, the town doesn't just need me to give some reads, or TTH's attention, it needs

all

the town to

wake up

!

there's a 1% chance there's 2 k's. if there's a vig, the obvious optimal strategy would be to stay quiet and shoot copper.

vengeful is not the best fakeclaim

[Heartless]

On 2 wagons:
Mastin2
BBT
killapenwin


Not on any of the wagons
Vettrock
Aneninen
beastcharizard

i think tean is scummier than most of these names. your approach isn't "lazy" it's "arbitrary and random"

[Heartless]

Have you made a case for that?

i'm looking over tean right now and...... their stuff isn't really as good as i remember it being. i thought the start was ok but now they're just kind of floating around (i see something about how they think dodgy vs eyes is tvs, but then the votes on..........dave,? that read seems stale and hasn't been revisited recently. what's up with that?) they're not really....going anywhere or getting much done despite the fact they've posted a couple walls recently batting down wicked's attack and talking about eyesvdodge (relatively held back though)

things i say don't matter

[Heartless]

You're analysis clearly didn't go very deep.

^^^^^^^^

this

and the

kicker

is that there's no core, fundamental reason for WHY scum would vote 2 wagons, or why they would be no wagoners, or why they would vote one wagon or whatever. we're just presented w/ this framework that has no reason for existing.

it's flinging shit against the wall and seeing what sticks.

[Heartless]

unofficial vc

killapenwin (1) - copper223
davesaz (4) -Wickedestjr, Tean Samargo, Mastin2, Heartless
copper223 (3) - BlueBloodedToffee, killapenwin, davesaz
dodgy56 (2) - vettrock, eyestott
Wickedestjr (1) - beastcharizard
Tean Samargo (2) - Aneninen, dodgy56

Not Voting: eyestott

[Heartless]

When have I ever successfully manipulated my meta? Also, this type of game is solely my town style of game as it makes me a huge target for a lynch or Vig kill.

wicked's not getting lynched today

quit vote parking on a nonviable wagon plz

[Heartless]

ok copper your turn

fill in the blank:
"the reason i'm not voting dave right now is ________"

[Heartless]

psh, aplle fanboy

figures

[Heartless]

VOTE: Heartless

Re-starting a mislynch on the towniest player in the game.

Intent to self-hammer

at deadline

if scum go for the no-lynch.

@Mod: Advance warning, I do not consider this against town wincon. Town needs the flip more than it needs me alive

lol

lynch this clown

[Heartless]

Not a fan of the Dave wagon.

really?
so i guess you're a fan of non-specific shotgunning then OMGZ SO MUCH RAEG FJDK;LIAEIO;JDSLFA;SIE when that breaks down

really, that whole bolded "message to the mod" (hominahominahomina)? not fooling me. for a second.

[Heartless]

tean's already on the wagon

[Heartless]

Who is on Dave wagon again? (phoneposting)

wicked, mastin, tean, us

what's the problem w/ this composition now...?

[Heartless]

I'm going to try to stop being such a terrible hydra partner now.

I'm so sorry Anti.

[Heartless]

Hold on a moment, why are we voting davesaz? Something must have gone seriously awry recently because he was pretty solid town read for me.
I suppose I should catch up.

[Heartless]

I'm going to try to stop being such a terrible hydra partner now.

I'm so sorry Anti.

i know it tth

i now hate you
forever

DON'T EVEN LOOK AT ME EVER AGAIN

[Heartless]

so, we need consolidation.
unofficial vc

killapenwin (0) -
davesaz (3) -Tean Samargo, Mastin2, Heartless,
copper223 (2) - BlueBloodedToffee, killapenwin,
dodgy56 (1) - vettrock,
Wickedestjr (1) - beastcharizard
Tean Samargo (3) - Aneninen, dodgy56, wicked
eyestott (1) - copper223
Heartless (1) - davesaz
I am most likely going to vote copper, as a few of his posts have been pinging me as quite suspicious. I will try and find them.

vote count editted 4 accuracy
the one man vanity wagons need consolidation

we're not getting lynched dave, pick another vote
wicked's not getting lynched beast, pick another vote
dodgy's not getting lynched vettrock, pick another vote
eyestott shouldn't be getting lynched copper, your vote sucks

[Heartless]

i actually..........

could do tean

mastin and tth, what say you?

[Heartless]

I see copper's vengeful claim and I'm actually shocked that BBT is using the claim as the thrust of his attack given that our neighbor game didn't end

that

long ago.

You remember the game I'm talking about BBT?

[Heartless]

i know it tth

i now hate you
forever

DON'T EVEN LOOK AT ME EVER AGAIN

Oh shush, you.
*kicks*

[Heartless]

someone w/ a vote on us doesn't exactly have much room to criticize someone else's productivity

[Heartless]

Heartless is pushing an obvious mislynch. I also see scum in the hydra dissonance -- Anti thinks I'm easy meat, while

TTH knows from personal experience

I can nail scum who go after me with no evidence.

I'm sorry, what are you talking about here?
-TTH

[Heartless]

Antihero's read progression on you since Post 825 has been pretty clearly explained and I actually think it's pretty damn valid. I see you've got the bluster part down, dave, but I don't see any actual arguments to back them up.

Where's the bluster even coming from? You didn't vote scum in m9++ until the wagon already had a couple votes, and even then you wanted to vote me.

-TTH

[Heartless]

Aww, come on.

Are we actually going to let this just happen?

Would prefer to lynch Copper, Anen, BC or eye before Dave.

BBT, that last question wasn't rhetorical. I thought there was a huge discussion after DrPeppers game about how scum didn't fakeclaim vengeful. Why are you acting like copper's claim is scummy?

-TTH

[Heartless]

All I can say is that if copper is scum and fakeclaiming here, he picked a pants-shittingly bad fakeclaim. If there's any ambiguity with the letters at LYLO, he's made himself a policy lynch anyway so the motive behind the claim isn't survivalist.

As someone who's drawn the vengeful role before, his behavior here makes a lot of sense to me.

-TTH

[Heartless]

Spoiler:

'mkay so going back to tth's town block from a while ago.......

Right now, I'm working from townreads on: davesaz, eyestott, dodgy, BlueBloodedToffee, Tean Samargo, and Wickedestjr for varying reasons.

dave's kind of been fading into the background as of late. after his wagon died down. (yikes)

i think tth's point about eyestott+dodgy and reading around the argument is valid. plus i think dodgy's been decently town lately. sticking w/ those reads.

yeah, agree w/ the bbt read too.

i'm looking over tean right now and...... their stuff isn't really as good as i remember it being. i thought the start was ok but now they're just kind of floating around (i see something about how they think dodgy vs eyes is tvs, but then the votes on..........dave,? that read seems stale and hasn't been revisited recently. what's up with that?) they're not really....going anywhere or getting much done despite the fact they've posted a couple walls recently batting down wicked's attack and talking about eyesvdodge (relatively held back though)

wicked's also p town.

I waited to see if there was going to be a shift after I softed to Mastin and she tried to move it off of me, but since there wasn't and I agree that deadline lynches are bad for town this became the next best play, I would not have claimed any other power role but if we are going to use mine we might as well get the most out of it.

I also am still unsure if Mastin is town for it or she was happy killing me off during the night so I wanted to share this, personally I am leaning town.

I can't find this soft you claim to have wafted in Mastin's direction.
In the meantime, vengeful is just about the best scum fake claim there is.
VOTE: copper223

anything to add other than glomming onto what i already said?

you should...like... post reads

the dave read is so stale and that last post was so horrible
UNVOTE:

if copper is town he it's definitely better to have him alive than dead. the vig shot's not worth it.

Seriously, what the hell?

We've had wagons on myself, eyestott, and copper. All 3 of us claimed, and according to the claims we're all town.
If there is a fake claim, vengeful would be it. Even if there is also a vig, it would be KK and thus a counter is meaningless. At least with II, the 2nd tracker is one-shot and confirms the existence of a full.

Assuming the 3 wagons are all on town, the town doesn't just need me to give some reads, or TTH's attention, it needs

all

the town to

wake up

!

there's a 1% chance there's 2 k's. if there's a vig, the obvious optimal strategy would be to stay quiet and shoot copper.

vengeful is not the best fakeclaim

On 2 wagons:
Mastin2
BBT
killapenwin


Not on any of the wagons
Vettrock
Aneninen
beastcharizard

i think tean is scummier than most of these names. your approach isn't "lazy" it's "arbitrary and random"

You're analysis clearly didn't go very deep.

^^^^^^^^

this

and the

kicker

is that there's no core, fundamental reason for WHY scum would vote 2 wagons, or why they would be no wagoners, or why they would vote one wagon or whatever. we're just presented w/ this framework that has no reason for existing.

it's flinging shit against the wall and seeing what sticks.

Not a fan of the Dave wagon.

really?
so i guess you're a fan of non-specific shotgunning then OMGZ SO MUCH RAEG FJDK;LIAEIO;JDSLFA;SIE when that breaks down

really, that whole bolded "message to the mod" (hominahominahomina)? not fooling me. for a second.

btw, ur full of crap if u try to take credit for the fud lynch in m9++. i read that game.

once your "vca" turned into a pile of mushy shit, your case becomes based on nothing more than thinly veiled omgus under the guise of "EVERYONE'S PICKING ON ME."

there's nothing at the core of your scumhunting aside from shallow platitudes and generalities that lead fucking nowhere.

it's fake.

you're scum.

[Heartless]

What you're calling a deflection is yet another obvtown tell. Don't waste your votes on me, try someone else.

Inactivity is scummier than anything I've done.
Voting me when I've done nothing scummy is scummier than anything I've done.
I'm not just attempting town tells, I'm posting actual town tells, like the only thing that will confirm me more is an actual flip.

the SECOND you identify what you think is a towntell, you subvert ALL it's fucking meaning. you're trying to replicate townflail and IT'S PAINFULLY OBVIOUS YOU'RE DOING SO

all you've done this game is drop off the radar once the initial pressure subsided then swamp the thread in this morass of self-meta horseshit when you get called on it

[Heartless]

I sure as hell did catch scum in that game. Heartless totally gets the credit for starting the wagon, but don't try to tell me I had nothing to do with it.

1) killapenwin is scum
2) BlueBloodedToffee is scum
3) eyestott is scum
4) Heartless is scum
5) davesaz is scum
6) copper223 is scum
7) vettrock is scum
8) Aneninen is scum
9) dodgy56 is scum
10) Wickedestjr is scum
11) beastcharizard is scum
12) Tean Samargo is scum
13) mastin2 is scum

[Heartless]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I JUST CALLED OUT THE WHOLE SCUMTEAM GUYZ

scumreads don't mean shit if they don't have teeth

yours don't

[Heartless]

@Heartless
The question here is not is davesaz a good ar a bad mafia player, the question is did he roll scum this game.

well obviously his priorities fall with wanting to create an

appearance

of town while sewing confusion and not actually wanting to form evolved reads that's actually based on....anything

the calculus of probabilities tells me that's more likely scum motivated than town motivated..,

,what's it telling you?

[Heartless]

only other game i was in w/ him was

and he sure shit was NOT (he was town there)

[Heartless]

*only other game i was in w/ him was c9++

[Heartless]

I'm saying that nobody has quoted a post and said why it is scummy.

i have

you've chosen to ignore it

[Heartless]

Spoiler:

'mkay so going back to tth's town block from a while ago.......

Right now, I'm working from townreads on: davesaz, eyestott, dodgy, BlueBloodedToffee, Tean Samargo, and Wickedestjr for varying reasons.

dave's kind of been fading into the background as of late. after his wagon died down. (yikes)

i think tth's point about eyestott+dodgy and reading around the argument is valid. plus i think dodgy's been decently town lately. sticking w/ those reads.

yeah, agree w/ the bbt read too.

i'm looking over tean right now and...... their stuff isn't really as good as i remember it being. i thought the start was ok but now they're just kind of floating around (i see something about how they think dodgy vs eyes is tvs, but then the votes on..........dave,? that read seems stale and hasn't been revisited recently. what's up with that?) they're not really....going anywhere or getting much done despite the fact they've posted a couple walls recently batting down wicked's attack and talking about eyesvdodge (relatively held back though)

wicked's also p town.

I waited to see if there was going to be a shift after I softed to Mastin and she tried to move it off of me, but since there wasn't and I agree that deadline lynches are bad for town this became the next best play, I would not have claimed any other power role but if we are going to use mine we might as well get the most out of it.

I also am still unsure if Mastin is town for it or she was happy killing me off during the night so I wanted to share this, personally I am leaning town.

I can't find this soft you claim to have wafted in Mastin's direction.
In the meantime, vengeful is just about the best scum fake claim there is.
VOTE: copper223

anything to add other than glomming onto what i already said?

you should...like... post reads

the dave read is so stale and that last post was so horrible
UNVOTE:

if copper is town he it's definitely better to have him alive than dead. the vig shot's not worth it.

Seriously, what the hell?

We've had wagons on myself, eyestott, and copper. All 3 of us claimed, and according to the claims we're all town.
If there is a fake claim, vengeful would be it. Even if there is also a vig, it would be KK and thus a counter is meaningless. At least with II, the 2nd tracker is one-shot and confirms the existence of a full.

Assuming the 3 wagons are all on town, the town doesn't just need me to give some reads, or TTH's attention, it needs

all

the town to

wake up

!

there's a 1% chance there's 2 k's. if there's a vig, the obvious optimal strategy would be to stay quiet and shoot copper.

vengeful is not the best fakeclaim

On 2 wagons:
Mastin2
BBT
killapenwin


Not on any of the wagons
Vettrock
Aneninen
beastcharizard

i think tean is scummier than most of these names. your approach isn't "lazy" it's "arbitrary and random"

You're analysis clearly didn't go very deep.

^^^^^^^^

this

and the

kicker

is that there's no core, fundamental reason for WHY scum would vote 2 wagons, or why they would be no wagoners, or why they would vote one wagon or whatever. we're just presented w/ this framework that has no reason for existing.

it's flinging shit against the wall and seeing what sticks.

Not a fan of the Dave wagon.

really?
so i guess you're a fan of non-specific shotgunning then OMGZ SO MUCH RAEG FJDK;LIAEIO;JDSLFA;SIE when that breaks down

really, that whole bolded "message to the mod" (hominahominahomina)? not fooling me. for a second.

btw, ur full of crap if u try to take credit for the fud lynch in m9++. i read that game.

once your "vca" turned into a pile of mushy shit, your case becomes based on nothing more than thinly veiled omgus under the guise of "EVERYONE'S PICKING ON ME."

there's nothing at the core of your scumhunting aside from shallow platitudes and generalities that lead fucking nowhere.

it's fake.

you're scum.

i could just quote this a million times, but i think you'd still ignore it

what, you need a link back to your own activity after the copper vote? here you go: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p6535142

the analysis leads nowhere. and when i tell you the emperor's wearing no clothes, you get mad at ME and I'M magically scum for it.
your argument is laying on the floor in a million pieces. everything. the copper scumread based on the claim. the theory that scum will have "such and such" vote pattern.

you don't answer the basic question

WHY?

and that's indicative of FALSE ANALYSIS because there's no meat behind ... anything you argue FROM that. you're arguing from AIR.

and somehow i'm scum for saying this.

[Heartless]

HOLY SHIT EVEN NOW

you're not clarifying your previous arguments or telling me what the basic philosophy is, you're lawyering the fucking post

[Heartless]

the sleaze factor is just off the charts and copper just wants to say you're a sleazeball or bad or whatever he was saying

i don't buy any of that

[Heartless]

i don't give half a shit about if you think you're being honest or not.

are the ducks lined up? if so, let's see 'em. if not, why the hell not?

and if part of your argument relies on meta from an ongoing game, something is fucked up

[Heartless]

Posts like this are the basis of my scum read.

a post like this is the basis of my scum read

[Heartless]

Missed another honesty quote. "I'm being pressured by the family to go out and do stuff today"
I have a life. I don't fade when I'm not the topic of discussion, I fade when I'm busier than a one-armed paper hanger.
You didn't see me whacking your hydra when you were V/LA.

i'm looking at your iso right now, i see NO DECLARATION OF V/LA.

this post that you're quoting also happened AFTER i said you faded into the background, so how's that for "honesty"?

[Heartless]

we're at the point of diminishing returns and apparently dave's strategy is to just keeping digging that hole until he escapes to china.

it's obvious he have no interest in elaborating on the actual analysis itself and will just throw out stuff about towntells and superficial shit about how i'm picking on him when he's given nothing to even pick on.

you can have the last word here. can't wait to see that scum flip.

[Heartless]

Heartless, who would you be willing to lynch if not Dave?

no compromise

not even in the face of armageddon

i've got my hands around scum's throat, i'm not letting go

[Heartless]

vettrock would be more of a PL than anything else at this point

[Heartless]

davesaz - Mastin2, Wickedestjr, Dodgy, Tean, eyestott

davesaz - Mastin2, Wickedestjr, Tean Samargo, eyestott, Copper

davesaz - Tean Samargo, Mastin2, Heartless, beastcharizard, Wickedestjr

=> 8 individual players willing to sit on a L-2 davesaz lynch, is scum bussing or inactive? This looks like a town mislynch to me.

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?

8 PLAYERS IS JUST 1 ABOVE THE 7 NEEDED FOR A MAJORITY LYNCH ANYWAY.
USING THIS LOGIC, ANYONE AND EVERYONE REACHING LYNCH WOULD BE TOWN UNLESS THERE'S BUSSING SCUM OR INACTIVES

THAT'S HOW THINGS ARE ANYWAY WHAT DOES THIS PROVE?

FOR BEING AN "L-2" WAGON, I SURE AM HITTING A GODDAMN BRICK WALL RIGHT NOW

[Heartless]

i'm right back in raging shithead mode.
i told myself
i told tth

i wouldn't do this.

but PEOPLE ARE DRIVING ME SO CRAZY WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME

[Heartless]

i'm sorry everybody. you shouldn't have to put up with me and my crazy. it's not ya'll's fault, it's mine.

[Heartless]

i have to give the stomach ulcers a rest for a sec. i know we don't have much time i'll be back soon.

[Heartless]

Anti, go lay down. You're being silly.

I really can't see town being this stubborn.

It seems you don't know Anti very well at all.

Also, where were you when I was suspecting mastin a while ago? If you're going to insist you "caught" her on page 2, it seems you have quite a bit more pride to swallow.

Heartless, let's play a game of logic questions. I'll ask and you can answer. If you want to ask as well I have no objection.
Anticipating the next post being "nice misdirection", it's not. This is going to help my read of you. It may help your read of me. Bonus points if we catch scum today. That happens to be what I really care about, it's a matter of getting people (you in particular) to admit it.

1. Is a mislynch ever the best move for town?

1. Excepting very special circumstances, such as a vengeful townie in LYLO, no.

-TTH

[Heartless]

2. If a town player is in serious danger of a mislynch, and there is no other wagon or even popular scum read to work with, is defending to try to stop the mislynch reasonable? Note, this is not asking if it's best, just if it's reasonable.

It certainly is not best, in my opinion, but I suppose it's at least understandable in theory. Stopping the mislynch would seem to entail securing an alternate one though, as it seems people on this site are very averse to no-lynches.

[Heartless]

Corollary: Suppose said town player's best scum read is the person who started the wagon with absolutely no evidence. Is the likely result of an OMGUS going to be a stampede to wagon that scum read, or will the about-to-be-mislynched townie's action now give people a real reason to vote him where there wasn't one before?

If the argument is so flimsy that it

can

be validly dismissed as mere "OMGUS," said argument probably wasn't strong enough to begin with. If the argument

is

strong enough, the townie can easily rebut accusations of OMGUS with specific and cogent reasoning.

[Heartless]

I can't make a believable case out of Mastin's first 10 posts, can you?
Double ISO her and me up to her 10th post and see if you can make her case on me.

Number of posts should be irrelevant. I can't make her case on you because I don't know what newbscum tells she refers to.

-TTH

[Heartless]

Here's that Tean thing I was looking up.

Spoiler: wall prevention

93 - penwin scum analysis

97 - vettrock not scum hunting

163 - BBT coasting

182, 189 - my reads list is filler (incorrect but at least it's something)

231 saying i'm active on site but not working here. eyestott opportunistic. penwin salty. dodgy inquisitive, wicked informative (I would use insightful)

530. penwin not hunting. things wouldn't end up well -> vengeful crumb?
asks penwin about people idolizing mastin
says that my 312 means that i wouldn't play optimally as either scum or town

589 clarifies that penwin didn't post "things wouldnt end up well", editing errors. I confirmed that nobody said those exact words. Penwin did say that Tean wasn't looking good.

705 explains the "idolizing mastin" thing, calls eyestott a white knight to mastin and a cheerleader for the wagon
says their vote on me is for reasons other than the cheerleading
Dodgy's vote was too eager to be towny

706 eye and dodgy are not likely to both be scum. if one is scum the other is likely town

708 bbt is town but not completely so

898 my focus is in the wrong place

922 acknowledges that i have pointed out discrepancies in how i'm treated vs others, but questions some of the links

967 again with calling some of the links filler

I think this is probably town. 231, 705, and 706 are quite accurate. 898 is an opinion that town should have. It may even be a little true, though I of course will continue to defend my defensiveness. 922 I see town conceding points a lot more often than scum, and keeping the doubts there and again in 967 isn't something that scum often do -- scum would either capitulate or press harder, the middle road response is much more townie.

I probably should have paid attention to the vote progression, but did not take notes on that.

This read confuses me. The things Tean call you out for are nearly identical to the things Anti called you out for. The only difference is that Anti was much more abrasive and used a few more f-bombs than Tean did, which is much more in line with differences in personality between Anti and Tean than anything. Not backing down is also more of a personality tell than an alignment tell. It tells me Anti is stubborn, which I could have told you before this game. Giving Anti a town role PM doesn't suddenly make him not obstinate, just as I imagine the contents of Tean's role PM doesn't change his personality.

-TTH

[Heartless]

It's important insofar as it makes for a convincing argument. My problem with mastin's early game is how the vote changed given the conviction behind the dave vote, i.e. reading one way and voting another. The opacity of the reasoning only added to the problem because it didn't allow for a clear tracking of the read.

-TTH

[Heartless]

Re 1042: Not sure why the comparison to anti is relevant to reading tean. The posts of teans that i linked include material not related to me which has a large effect on the tean read. Phonepost

You're townreading Tean and scumreading Anti even though they're both saying similar things. There's a fundamental conflict here.

-TTH

[Heartless]

*frazzled*
I feel like I'm trying to re-invent the wheel here because I don't really care for any of the three wagon leaders that everyone's calling for consolidation on. I feel like the most promising leads are mastin, killapenguin, or vettrock, but all of those are still in the "vanity" classification.

-TTH

[Heartless]

What

about

him?

[Heartless]

There's the distinct lack of an attitude adjustment I would expect scum to get in his position once he started taking abuse. If he's scum, beastcharizard is lazy to a fault.

Antihero also doesn't seem enthused with the prospect of voting beast and he has a history with him to base a more informed read off of.

[Heartless]

VOTE: Heartless
You know too much this game. Mastin is also likely scum, I need to think about what Dodgy's death means and why Killa and Wicked just opened up on Beast in particular.

You usually throw suspicion on me because I'm not right enough, now it's that I'm too right?! I'm surprised this kind of pride is blinding you.

I think Anti is putting

way

too much stock into meta and AtE to read mastin here. I also think his good reads went tragically un-sheeped while his bad ones were. killa and Tean come to mind.
VOTE: mastin2

[Heartless]

Anti was driving the mislynches yesterday, he pushed a little on me and super hard on Dave at the end, you were not scumreading either and you previously made that really good post about Eyes and Dodgy that made me townread you, but funnily enough the vote on Dave stayed. That's very not TTH, I would expect you to come in and change it if you did not agree, instead by the time you started to express doubts the damage had been done. What Anti said about our interaction being sketchy, as a means to scumread me, is also true, where is our usual banter in this game?

So now your extreme burden of proficiency argument shifts over to Anti? Who are you getting this meta from?
The vote

stayed

on davesaz? Excuse me, but we never voted davesaz until Anti did near the end of the day and that was a unilateral action on Anti's part. Antihero's been driving his hydra because I fell behind over the holidays and haven't set aside a block of uninterrupted time to catch up. Everything I've contributed to this game has been in bits and pieces and it's filled in from Anti's account of the game to me. I'm trusting his judgment because he's here and I'm not and, in this game, I'm acting more to manage

his

reads and kind of reign them in since he tends to be pretty erratic.

This is how I see it (admittedly I couldn't check if Dodgy clumsily crumbed because of work, but barring that) the Eyestott kill is the optimal scum kill, the Dodgy kill is the SK messing with scum, I think Mastin is the SK and thinks Anti is scum, that comment about his scumhunting being fake as fuck when he is not town seems game related and the way they were discussing who to go on at the end of the day does not look like town interaction.

These thoughts are borne out of a non-understanding of what Antihero's scum meta is like and how it contrasts to his town meta.
If you ever have time, I invite you to look at a few of Antihero's scum games and a town game and you'll catch on pretty quickly. (For reference, here's a scum game of his I read: Picking Simplicity, and here's a recent town for reference as "purple hero": Touhou: Makai Mix). For fun, you can also look at that C9++ game where we were SK. In the beginning, he was good about genuinely scumhunting because we were really trying to kill of the mafia relatively quickly. Once we did that, though, he went straight back to his old scum meta in LYLO. For whatever reason, this man has a

serious

and severe psychological hangup with not being town. He clams up and doesn't post. You should have heard the conversations I had with him that game; I had to yell and scream at him and threaten physical violence to get him to post at all during LYLO. Eventually, I just got tired and did all the posting myself because I couldn't keep it up. I kept my posts to a minimum because I wanted to lay low, but I didn't completely fall off the face of the earth like he does.

mastin was in that Touhou game I linked, so it also tells you a little about interactions between Anti and mastin.

Overall, you seem to think I have more power over this hydra than you think I do and I'm playing more of an auxiliary role right now than anything, though I didn't intend to.

[Heartless]

I think Mastin is the SK and thinks Anti is scum

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

ok, copper, u don't know me and mastin, so i'll give u a pass here.

if this were the case, tth and i's bodies would be laying in a ditch right now w/ multiple stab wounds.

also
UNVOTE:
VOTE: killa

[Heartless]

Anti was driving the mislynches yesterday,

my opinions are what they are and i'll take the credit/blame after the game

[Heartless]

@TTH
It's more that one side of the hydra is threat mitigation and the other is pushing scum agenda. I'll read the links during a very boring 3hrs train ride I need to take... sigh.

Ha! Because you're somehow privy to how

our

hydra dynamic is when a major section of it is in RL?! Piss off.

Who's the "threat mitigation"? Me? Because you're repeating

my

reads, so that doesn't add up.

Here's something you should know about Anti: he's very intelligent (though, he hides it sometimes), but he's

very

stubborn. Remember when we killed mollie in C9++? I had to do that with Jingle

behind his back because Anti absolutely wasn't going to let me do it.

If he's got his head in this game more than I do,

of course

I have to cede the vote to him and I can't control how much he listens to me.

[Heartless]

It would be a nifty way to play it,

I think you're setting an unfair standard for Antihero,

especially

for Day 1, and you're scumreading his pushes because he doesn't think like you do. It's also unfair to compare the accuracy of his reads to mine because I wasn't here as long and therefore my sample size isn't as large. It's also easier to work from the town reads side (which I do) than the scum reads side (which Anti mostly deals with) simply because there

are

more town than scum.

I also think you're also pissed at me because I wasn't there enough. If it makes you feel better I acknowledge that it's true that I wasn't and I'm already getting enough grief from Anti about that. None of that makes us scum though, and your reasoning is speculative at best and based on this fantasy that I can make people townread me at will; I wish I had that kind of charisma.

And if it seems like I'm getting pissy with you, it's because I'm trying to re-enter this game but now I feel like I'm having to mediate a personality difference and two egos here. It's fairly annoying.

[Heartless]

As a side note, TTH, why did you not unvote Dave here?

Because what I got was from a cursory glance at the thread. I wasn't (and still am not) in the trenches like Anti was so he had executive control over the vote.

I've got exactly two things that require my attention, one of which will likely cause me to want to gouge the nearest person's eyes out. I'm pretty irritable right now, but depending on how a few things go I might become even more irritable so my mood here might take a descent straight into hell. Regardless, I told Antihero I'd be here so I'll suck it up and be here for him. It may not be pretty, but I'll get the town reads updated and look into seeing who the vote should settle on. It may or may not be on the right person already, I'm not sure.

[Heartless]

On my docket today, I have: look at the game again through the lens of the flips and update the town reads. Since the first experiment was a bust, we need a new hypothesis.

[Heartless]

@Mastin
Did you consider Vettrock's read on Eyestott yesterday? Why does scum Vettrock say he is sure the tracker is town?

...

...Words.
Failing me.

...

...Okay. Let's try this. Why

wouldn't

scum say the tracker is town? Especially if that's the scum nightkill. Think about that for a bit.

I have an alternate theory about this. Needless to say, I think your vote is ill-placed.

I'm still forming the working theory, hopefully I'll have it written up sometime today but I can make no guarantees as my attention is focused in a few other places, most notably on this irritating and poorly written lab protocol I somehow have to pull half the steps out of my ass for.

In the meantime, I'll give Anti a nudge as I'm sure he's got some ideas by now.

[Heartless]

Heartless is scum. They remind me of a game I read. I will have to find a link to it later because the name escapes me. It was an open game though and they were the SK I believe. They def were not town.

you mean the one where we played like a vig until the 3 man lylo? c9++? that one?

dude, you don't even read the games you're in. i have a hard time believing you actually read that game.

[Heartless]

Heartless
copper223
Aneninen
Wickedestjr
beastcharizard
BlueBloodedToffee
killapenwin
Tean samargo
vettock

Town to scum. Doesn't necessarily mean that vettock-tean-killa's the scumteam, but should give you a fair approximation of things right now.

lol well tth is already townreading vettock so i think she'll have a few issues w/ this list

/ugh i'm in sad sack mode right now...

help
me

[Heartless]

How are you working it out?

it's not a vig. obv kill for a vig would be copper. if you have a ~90% shot of someone being scum, you take that shot.

[Heartless]

3 is wrong and i've been doing most of the talking here soooooooo
your argument isn't consistent with itself.

also 1,2,and4 are things you could figure out in 2 seconds.

also beast, somewhere along the way, you got really lazy. remember that voidedmafia game we replaced into (mastin was there). you called us scum for.... exactly no reason and both our slots were town.

plz remove head from anus

[Heartless]

Tell us when you need

A pot of strong coffee and a couple hours. Which is what I now happen to have!

This game has my attention.

[Heartless]

Where were you yesterday when I said that, BBT?

[Heartless]

I've formulated an updated hypothesis and I have quite solid town reads on vettrock, Aneninen, and Wickedestjr, all of which are very unlikely to change in the near future.

The remaining playerlist is: killapenwin, BlueBloodedToffee, copper223, beastcharizard, Tean Samargo, and mastin2

beastcharizard is more likely to be scum than not. After catching a lot of flak for being useless on Day 1, we see him re-enter the thread on Day 2 with a promise to contribute something showy in Post 1128. We're then given an explanation about how Day 1 played out from beastcharizard's perspective: that it was an elaborate ruse, using himself as bait. This is an unlikely story for several reasons. One is that it has an obvious lack of foresight. What was to be the method for distinguishing overeager scum from town with a certain perspective and set of scumtells they're working from? We don't know, and beast doesn't seem the kind of player to be working from a methodology that requires that kind of precision. There's also a distinct lack of follow up on this asserted principle. His only push since the revelation was us, and we never voted nor pushed beastcharizard at any previous point in the game.

The meta arguments he's making aren't true, and baffling given our game histories. As Antihero already pointed out, beastcharizard never played in Open 573. However, he

did

play an open game with us quite recently: Open 576.1: The Enemy of My Enemy. Saying me doing most of the posting is a scum tell for us is ridiculous and doesn't stand up to the mildest application of logic. First of all, our posting distribution was fairly even in Open 573 and we weren't exactly playing to our scum metas in that game either. And in the game beast

was

in, Open 576.1, we were posting fairly evenly until Day 3, which I was doing almost all the posting. We were town in that game.

So, in summary, the meta argument doesn't have legs and based on lies, and I suspect the whole "trap" gambit was a lie too because he's voted none of his detractors from either Days 1 or 2. Anti seems to be dismissing it to laziness, but I think it's because he's making stuff up as he goes.

[Heartless]

There's also the arthritic backpedal in Post 1194, Post 1197, and Post 1201 where he suddenly can't tell Anti and I apart (I sincerely doubt this) and the purpose of the vote morphs into a reaction test of sorts.

[Heartless]

I think our vote is very much in a sub-optimal place.
UNVOTE:
While I look over BBT and Tean again. I'm starting to suspect BBT's been riding in our blind spot.

[Heartless]

Fuck it, I think it's pretty clear Vettrock is hinting at being 1-shot tracker and that's why he was sure of Eyestott yesterday.

I picked up on the same thing, and I don't know if saying that was entirely necessary but it is what it is now.

[Heartless]

I would love to know how that makes me scum.

The fact that you're backpedaling on a scum read for dubious reasons now that it's not in vogue. The vengeful claim has been there quite some time, you even said in Post 821 that it was a "great claim for scum to make." It would be one thing if you thought he was a liar for some particular reason, but back then you made it sound like it was good for scum to claim vengeful on principle.

So how is it not now?

[Heartless]

Hardly an explanation for the non sequitur read progression.
VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

[Heartless]

hello everybody and welcome to this episode of

WHO'S READ IS IT ANYWAY?

the game show where meta usage is fucked beyond recognition, reads don't make any goddamn sense, and progression doesn't matter.

woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[Heartless]

d) there seems to be a distinct lack of traction behind my push on him (no one is joining a bandwagon on him easily, scum could have easily jumped on and blamed me/wicked if we mislynched)

well copper made sure to shut that shit down right quick

[Heartless]

Spoiler: reads progression on copper, it's a doozy

It's also a great claim for scum to make.

You concede the point Copper?

Copper is likely scum.

I still want to lynch Anen as well.

But nobody is listening.

So I'll crawl back into my hole until people want to listen.

I'll lynch Vettrock toDay.

The majority of Copper's play strikes me as scummy but scum seem way too overpowered if we can essentially lose the game by lynching Scum!Copper, he shoots townie and scum and SK kill to end game for town.

Plus, he re-evaluation of his reads late D1 felt awfully town.

Would lynch Anen too.

Vengeful doesn't seem a great fake-claim for scum to make.

Yay.

VOTE: Copper

A fake PR claim*

No, I'm not.

I think you're scum and I'm voting accordingly. Stop crying.

VOTE: Mastin

[Heartless]

do you think it is worth pursuing today heartless?

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

it'd still mostly be on the basis of him not knowing his ass from a hole in the ground this game. which happened before (actually in the one tth linked).

[Heartless]

Do it from the other side, too, Anti. Copper on BBT.

copper on [fucking everyone in this game] reads progression doesn't make sense

[Heartless]

your ass, you're talking out of ....... page 18

[Heartless]

Look at the scum coming together to form a CW.

Ain't it cute.

lol, except mastin's not voting you

she should though

[Heartless]

u can feel free to explain this scooby doo sentence any time bbt

The majority of Copper's play strikes me as scummy but scum seem way too overpowered if we can essentially lose the game by lynching Scum!Copper, he shoots townie and scum and SK kill to end game for town.

[Heartless]

I derped and thought Copper could be scum & vengeful.

Keep forgetting it's an open setup.

bullshit, where were you getting the scum numbers from then?

[Heartless]

I derped and thought Copper could be scum & vengeful.

Keep forgetting it's an open setup.

bullshit, where were you getting the scum numbers from then?

the changing narrative:
>copper is faking and full of shit
>copper is actually vengeful, but scum
>vengeful is an awesome scum claim
>vengeful is a bad scum claim
>vengeful scum getting lynched would confer scum an advantage

SO WHICH ONE IS IT, BBT?

[Heartless]

also calling bullshit on you forgetting it's an open setup
you've talked about who you thought was SK a couple times

[Heartless]

I've formulated an updated hypothesis and I have quite solid town reads on vettrock, Aneninen, and Wickedestjr, all of which are very unlikely to change in the near future.

The remaining playerlist is: killapenwin, BlueBloodedToffee, copper223, beastcharizard, Tean Samargo, and mastin2

tth and i are on the same page re: town reads she has there. i would add mastin.

the tean slot is prob the biggest question mark for me right now

[Heartless]

I don't particularly care whether you believe me or not.

I'm telling you I keep forgetting it's an open set up.

I'm waffling on Scum!Copper...so what?

and i'm telling YOU: bull. fucking. shit.

the waffling is unbelievable because the thought process is unbelievable.

the logic chain:
fakeclaiming ---> real claiming but scum
doesn't have anything legit to fill in the "--->"

the rest of your pushes are anemic and have no teeth. the anen read has PLOP sat there like a dried up dog turd but you're perfectly content taking potshots at him while bitching and moaning that no one is listening to you EVEN THOUGH PEOPLE ARE TELLING YOU WHY THEY'RE TOWNREADING HIM.

[Heartless]

if i wasn't for a massclaim before i am now. 3 claimed prs already we might as well get the lettering straight / see if all the claims can fit together or not and not give scum more time to formulate fakeclaims or ride on fakeclaims if one of the claimed prs is scum already

[Heartless]

popcorn, starting w/ beast

[Heartless]

ok, setup

7 letters, there's almost certainly an sk here so probably odd number of t's

flips: tracker, jk
claims: 1-shot tracker, hider, vengeful

flips: IPXXXXX
claims: IIPHKXX

not a lot of t's in the claimed scenario

someone better than me at math, what's the probability of 2 or fewer t's?

[Heartless]

22.6%

what's the probability of 1 t?

[Heartless]

is it 5.47%?

[Heartless]

uhhhhhhh, yeah let's do that massclaim

[Heartless]

I have just read my role PM and was reminded of something.

If I hide behind someone and I don't die...they are confirmed town. I'm such a fucking idiot.

I hid behind Killa last night. Killa is conf town.

PEdit - I chose Killa because I felt good they were town but not town enough that they would get killed and thus we would both die.

if you forgot hiding behind scum kills you, why would you thinking killa was town influence your decision in any way?

[Heartless]

why are we fiddle fucking around on the massclaim?

[Heartless]

like.... we're sitting here with a game waiting to be broken and everyone's shitting out all ass cheeks acting like there's nothing to do

LET'S
GOOOOO
ALLLLLREADYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

[Heartless]

well i hope you're paying more attention to your taxes than you are to this game b/c if not, the irs is going to shove a nightstick up your ass

[Heartless]

oh for fucks sake
copper already claimed, popcorn to someone else

[Heartless]

vt.

/ugh, the tean slot should not be the last to claim, but since it's a semi-open...eh... prob not a big deal

wicked, anen. i think you're the only ones left besides them.

[Heartless]

doooooooooodeeeeeeeeeeeedoooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

._.

[Heartless]

i still think copper and vettrock's claims are a lot more believable than bbt's and i'm kind of baffled as to why mastin seems to think the opposite

[Heartless]

GUYSGUYSGUSY

has anyeon seen my asshole?

i think it ran away

[Heartless]

By the way, goes without saying, but at this point, I kinda...don't feel like a claim will change my opinion of the Tean slot. Any claim they make, be it PR or VT, will still make me feel like they're scum.

What was the point of this post? It feels anti-productive.

you
are
so
scum
beast

mastin might be eating your shit

but i'm not

[Heartless]

we haven't seen a reads list fall out of beast's anal cavity

can we have one?

i
want
to
see it

smell it

taste it

[Heartless]

uughgh;sagdj;fdsafdewm

it's firday night
and i have
northing to do besides look at this game agian and ea t cookies made out of sand and diarrhea

[Heartless]

OH FUCKING HORSESHIT

you haven't been reading but suppodsely you've been rading enough to make a meta judgement on tth and i BASED ON A GAME YOU WEREN'T EVEN IN

[Heartless]

HOLY shit

do u think this is tth?

because i'm jstu fucking drooling out my anus at this point if you do

[Heartless]

MAAAASSSSTIIIINNNNNN

tell me i'm pretty

[Heartless]

BEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSTTTTTTTTTTT

WHERE DID YOU GO?

i wanted to feel your warm embrace while you whisper sweet nothings in my ear

instead, i feel nothing except the

coldness

and

loneliness

of the

dark

[Heartless]

hammering before a Tean replacement is a scum claim

[Heartless]

IIPHKTT

Cooper: Vengeful
BBT: Hide
Vettrock: 1-shot Tracker
Beast: VT
Mastin: VT
Heartless: VT
Anen: VT
Killa: VT
Wicked:
Tean:

This is where I am at. After the last two claims I might introduce a tin-foil hat theory for the scum team.

Town:
Anen
Mastin
Vettrock
Killa

Null:
Wicked
Tean

Scum:
Cooper
Heartless
BBT

Those are my reads. No this isn't my tin-foil hat scum team and one of the nulls is probably SK.

these reads makes sense w/ NEITHER the role claims NOR the gameplay

congrats on birthing another concocted reads list

[Heartless]

BBT said he was going to go back into hiding after whining about nobody wanting to help him kill Aneninen

Did he say this in the PT yall share??

no, he said this in the thread. the thread you're apparently not reading. Post 1127

The meta arguments he's making aren't true, and baffling given our game histories. As Antihero already pointed out, beastcharizard never played in Open 573. However, he did play an open game with us quite recently: Open 576.1: The Enemy of My Enemy. Saying me doing most of the posting is a scum tell for us is ridiculous and doesn't stand up to the mildest application of logic. First of all, our posting distribution was fairly even in Open 573 and we weren't exactly playing to our scum metas in that game either. And in the game beast was in, Open 576.1, we were posting fairly evenly until Day 3, which I was doing almost all the posting. We were town in that game.

Lets just out this now. I was MonkeyMan in that game. You know, the one who roleblocked your kill. So I did read the game and I was part of it.

well that makes it even worse because now you have no excuse for pushing your whole "tth does all the talking as scum" bullshit.

[Heartless]

:eyeroll: