Open 621 (C9++): The ZAR SHOW S1 Holiday Special - OVER!
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BlueBloodedToffee Survivor
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BlueBloodedToffee Survivor
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- Posts: 23692
- Joined: April 10, 2014
- Location: Liverpool, UK
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BlueBloodedToffee Survivor
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- Posts: 23692
- Joined: April 10, 2014
- Location: Liverpool, UK
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BlueBloodedToffee Survivor
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- Posts: 23692
- Joined: April 10, 2014
- Location: Liverpool, UK
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BlueBloodedToffee Survivor
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- Posts: 23692
- Joined: April 10, 2014
- Location: Liverpool, UK
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BlueBloodedToffee Survivor
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- Posts: 23692
- Joined: April 10, 2014
- Location: Liverpool, UK
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BlueBloodedToffee Survivor
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- Posts: 23692
- Joined: April 10, 2014
- Location: Liverpool, UK
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BlueBloodedToffee Survivor
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- Posts: 23692
- Joined: April 10, 2014
- Location: Liverpool, UK
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BlueBloodedToffee Survivor
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- Posts: 23692
- Joined: April 10, 2014
- Location: Liverpool, UK
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BlueBloodedToffee Survivor
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- Posts: 23692
- Joined: April 10, 2014
- Location: Liverpool, UK
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BlueBloodedToffee Survivor
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- Posts: 23692
- Joined: April 10, 2014
- Location: Liverpool, UK
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BlueBloodedToffee Survivor
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Alright, I'm here and catching up. This is going to be a good game, I can feel it.
Can you tell me what the purpose of this post was Kmd? I feel like this post is made on the assumption that Lowell is town? If so, where has that read come from?
In post 32, roflcopter wrote:
hi, this is dumb. random chance says there is likely to be one scum in a group of four out of the thirteen players in this game, but your reason is bad.
vote: toffee
How dare you say my reasoning for finding scum on page 1 is both 'dumb' and 'bad'. That's the best damn page 1 reasoning you're ever likely to see.
Now, take that back.
In post 37, AlwaysInnocent wrote:So Toffee is scum?
Point of this post, AI?
This looks like a serious vote Tex, can you walk me through it? What was scummy about Kmd keeping a read to himself?
In post 44, acryon wrote:Yeah, actually ABR replaced into a game for me where I was scum and killing it, and he came in guns blazing and totally blew it.
VOTE: Albert B Rampage
This looks like another RVS vote. If it is, why are you ignoring the fact that Kmd has stated he has placed a serious vote on you?
In post 47, shaddowez wrote:VOTE: Acryon
Serious vote. Jumped on the BBT wagon when it was gaining steam, then when people stopped talking about him and started voting ABR he joins in to do the same.
I like this vote but for different reasons. As stated above.Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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BlueBloodedToffee Survivor
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In post 52, shaddowez wrote:
At this point it's the scummiest thing I've seen. I have no problem with vote jumping, but he doesn't seem to have put any reasoning into his votes, and is just latching onto the wagons that are forming.
Do you believe wagon hopping/forming wagons to have negative utility during RVS? If so, why?
In post 63, Albert B. Rampage wrote:All town
Interesting. Can you talk about this a little more?
In post 69, Kmd4390 wrote:Like if you are scum, keep buddying people like you have with Yos and BBT already
Huh? I can see it with Yos but I don't see where ABR is buddying me.
In post 70, acryon wrote:
Nope. That's not how I play at all, but it's page 3 so in the first few I tend to say whatever and see what happens. In your and shadowez cases, it seems like you're trying too hard.
To avoid ambiguity, are you equating try hard to scummy here?
In post 71, Lowell wrote:@kmd- shaddowz reads like a player who is making a showy effort to look like he's being useful, while not being useful. The way he (superfluously) notes that his vote is a "serious vote" in 47, then has a ready-made oh-so-casual response to justify it in 52. He's defending his right to be suspicious and cast a vote more than he's defending the vote itself. So, not so much a try-hard, as a faux-try-hard. Join this wagon.
I'm interested as to why you're applying all of this to Shadow and completely ignoring Kmd. Kmd also stated he had a serious vote on Acryon, he didn't have the chance to explain his vote because Acryon never asked about it.
What is the difference between the two?
In post 72, shaddowez wrote:BBT- Talk to me about your Anen/Yos reads.
Lowell- So you think I'm scum for placing a serious vote, and actually moving us out of RVS? Interesting.
It was mostly something to get the game going but a small part of me does believe that scum would have confirmed in the way other people were doing it to avoid making waves.
I don't like that you just tried to claim credit for moving us out of RVS. Small things that scum do to look town.Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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BlueBloodedToffee Survivor
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In post 79, Yosarian2 wrote:People i don't currently want to lynch becsuse they've done something i like at some point
Lowell
roflcopter
Albert B. Rampage
AlwaysInnocent
kmd4390
Everyone else
shaddowez
2. Lucky2u
3. acryon
4. Kop
6. texcat
8. BlueBloodedToffee
11. Aneninen
List subject to change whenever i feel like it
Ah, the old completely unnecessary, randomly inserted reads-list. A favourite for scum to look like they have 'reads' and are 'doing things'.
In post 83, Yosarian2 wrote:In general, at this point in the game, i tend to townread people who are active and doing intresting things. None of those are especally strong reads, but they all look like they're actually scumhunting in their own way.
Really? I fail to see how this relates to ABR, rofl and AI in any way. Can you elaborate?
What do you think it means?Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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BlueBloodedToffee Survivor
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In post 106, AlwaysInnocent wrote:Also, nothing wrong with applying/discussing theory. It is not a "safe way out" but an addition to my ad hoc play.
There most definitely is. Scum would happily spend most of their time posting about theory because it distracts from actually scum hunting. Both your posting and Kop's posting around this subject makes me feel uneasy.
In post 121, Yosarian2 wrote:
ABR is basically playing in his normal meta. Loud, obnoxious, picking fights. It's basically how I expect town-ABR to act. It's not really an alignment tell, he could do that as either alignment, but I haven't seen any red flags from him yet.
No, he isn't. I picked the fight with ABR because I thought he was ignoring me. It's also strange how you're saying it's not an alignment tell but your town reading him for it anyway?
Your reads/reasoning aren't making any sense to me.Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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BlueBloodedToffee Survivor
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Let's talk about this vote and why you're ignoring Yos' incorrect statements about your play.
In post 127, AlwaysInnocent wrote:VOTE: Lucky2u
I know that we are still transitioning from RVS to scumhunting, but Lucky2u is playing too minimalistic now even for my taste. I want to see more from him.
What took you so long to vote Lucky? Why wait for somebody else to do it first?
In post 130, roflcopter wrote:kmd and alwaysinnocent are scumbuddies. you heard it here first.
This feels town.
In post 131, roflcopter wrote:there's some people being pretty obvtown around here so that's good
Who are you talking about here?
In post 132, AlwaysInnocent wrote:I have my doubts about KMD, but I am curious why you think that. Like I said, trying to find positive connections between scum on D1 often fails. So why do you think you are able to find a connection between me and KMD? For giving up so easily on me? That caught my attention, too. But what does it tell us? Not much.
Second time you have done this in a short space of time. You seem to latch onto other people's thoughts/opinions whilst trying to make them look like your own. (The Lucky vote and now this sudden suspicion of Kmd which was previously nowhere to be found.)
In post 133, Yosarian2 wrote:
ABR: Like I said, he's totally in his town meta, and is acting like how I would expect town-ABR to act at this point in the game.
AlwaysInnocent: There are several of his posts I liked. His post 31 gave me good vibes for some reason. Also it feels like he's really scumhunting.
KMD: I really liked the super-earnest way he went after ABR.
Disagree with your assertions about ABR as I have already stated.
There are several of AI's posts that you liked and you pick one that you can't even explain why you like it? Wanna pick a few others?
Kmd went after ABR?
In post 139, Lowell wrote:If AI could stop mansplaining how voting works that would be great. I'd vote hiim if someone could tell me why the shaddowz wagon is broken.
In post 140, Lowell wrote:Also I forgot to mention rofl is town, even though he's openly trying to derail the lucky wagon. Which, by the way, does the lucky wagon need more juice, or what? Or should I just wait here until it fizzles out?
Would it be fair to read these posts as unwilling to leave Shadow wagon for AI but willing to leave Shadow wagon for Lucky?Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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BlueBloodedToffee Survivor
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BlueBloodedToffee Survivor
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In post 150, AlwaysInnocent wrote:Um. What? I was already considering him, by looking at the activity overview. Previously I voted Kop for his lack of contributions, which forced him out of his shell. Furthermore, Lucky said that he was going to take a backseat in the game, which I don't like. Being on a wagon greater than size 1 usually helps to push players to contribute more.
I see, so what you're saying is I should have known that you were already suspecting Lucky because you had looked at the activity overview? OK then.
What do you dislike about Lucky saying he will be taking a backseat?
In post 150, AlwaysInnocent wrote:By the way, how can you be convinced by an empty one-liner about two players being scum buddies this early in the game? How does that make someone town?
I'm not sure what you're talking about.
In post 151, Yosarian2 wrote:
Seriously, figuring out who looks townie and then lynching someone who doesn't is the single most effective way to find scum, especially early. People make the mistake of "looking for people doing something scummy", but that's backwards; scum usually look null-ish if they're at all competent. So instead you need to look for people who are doing something townie and then lynch someone who's not.
Agreed. This in no way assuages my concerns that you're scum or even responds to my comment about your post though. You side-stepped my issue, well played, but try again.
In post 151, Yosarian2 wrote:
Excuse me? What is "incorrect" about my statements? I've been playing with ABR for many years now, I think I have some idea of what his meta is.
You said ABR was picking fights - I showed you that this was wrong. I would go as far as to say that ABR has played mildly up to this point so you're read of 'loud and obnoxious' is very confusing to me.
In post 151, Yosarian2 wrote:
His vote for you was a very town-ish move; you were looking scummy at the point he voted for you, and I like that he's thinking the same way I am.
This was also great:
In post 48, AlwaysInnocent wrote:
No, no. I never conclude anything. I only assume things.In post 43, Aneninen wrote:AlwaysInnocent, you drew a conclusion just as quickly as TexCat.
Townish, aggressive, trying to scumhunt without fear or excessive caution.
He also changed his vote 4 times by page 4, which, in context, is town-ish and implies scumhunting. He's lurker hunting, which is also pro-town at this stage of the game, and in general his play makes a lot of sense.
Just because you describe something as 'townish' it doesn't make it so, you just repeat this is townish, this is townish, this is townish. Why were those actions townish?
Aggressive is a trait reserved for town now is it? That's a first. Lurker hunting is the easiest form of scum hunting for scum to do, there is nobody to respond to their accusations.
In post 151, Yosarian2 wrote:This feels like a scummy vote from BBT, but obviously I may be biased here. Not getting a good vibe from his posting in general though.
You wanna elaborate on this bad vibe you're getting from my posting and why my vote is scummy? You need to stop stating things like they're fact and start explaining.
Also, you missed the part where I asked you to show me where Kmd was pushing ABR.
In post 157, Lowell wrote:
But I ask again... why is the shaddowz wagon going nowhere? He started lurking after I called him out, and nothing has happened since.
Because he's probably town. You should join me on Yos and answer my question that I asked you.
In post 160, shaddowez wrote:
Not at all, as it assists in forming patterns and making initial impressions of people both by what any individual is doing, along with reactions to those people. An argument could be made that it's townier than vote parking, but then people can just use that to try for meta.
OK, then I'm not sure I understand your problem with Acryon's earlier play?Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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BlueBloodedToffee Survivor
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In post 161, texcat wrote:
My PM was quite specific about how to confirm. (See the OP.) Are you suggesting that scum had different instructions? Or are you suggesting that it's scummy not to read the instructions, or scummy to read the instructions?
Are you being facetious on purpose?
People usually confirm in different ways; a few examples to illustrate my point.
'/confirm. Let's get this game going.'
'/confirm, wooooo, I'm excited'
'/confim, y'all are making me nervous already.'
'/confirm, accompanied with random GIF' etc etc.
I'm sure you get the point now.Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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BlueBloodedToffee Survivor
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Hope everyone had a great Christmas!
In post 164, shaddowez wrote:
What do you think of ABR's play? You argue that he's playing mildly, but don't actually express any thoughts on whether you think his current play style is scummy or not.
ABR is null at the moment - he hasn't done anything to tip my read one way or the other. I find ABR quite difficult to read and he has fooled me before as scum so I'm going to take my time and keep that read close to my chest as it develops.
In post 165, AlwaysInnocent wrote:BBT, don't twist my words. I didn't say that you should have known that.
I know you didn't, but you stated it like I should have known that's what you did and I should not have had the audacity to question your lucky vote. The fact is, when you voted Lucky you showed no prior reasoning leading towards a Lucky vote and you did it straight after somebody else voted him. That sets off alarm bells for me.
In post 173, roflcopter wrote:lowell, kop, shadow and toffee are all town and should all climb aboard the always innocent wagon with me for great justice
Walk me through why Lowell and Kop are town?
He's not necessarily scummier then AI, but I feel like Yos would be the trickier one to catch if they were both scum and so I'm much more interested in spending my energy getting him lynched at this present time.
Why have you ignored my earlier question?
Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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BlueBloodedToffee Survivor
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In post 200, Kmd4390 wrote:
His back and forth with you after your RVS vote on him gave me that vibe.
What do you think about Yos reading those exact same posts as aggression and using that as a reason to town read ABR?
In post 213, Yosarian2 wrote:
His vote and then later unvote for ABR on wasn't great; I get the vote was probably random, but then removing for reason was eeehh.
I voted ABR for ignoring me and then unvoted him when he started interacting with me. Can you explain your problem with this a little more?
Can you be a little more specific about what you don't like about my 142? Your vague accusations make them difficult to respond to, which I'm sure is the point of them.
In post 213, Yosarian2 wrote:ANd then he flipped out about my "list" in a really irrational way, spending 3 posts talking about it and demanding that I be lynched. The fact that he reacted so badly to it just makes me think that I have his entire scum team on my naughty list, and he's upset that his whole scum team is getting coal this year.
You keep saying I flipped out about your reads-list and that really isn't what happened. I quite clearly had a problem with your reads-list and I have explained why on numerous occasions. You keep saying it was an irrational response, but quite clearly that's a false statement.
In post 215, Yosarian2 wrote:Why the hell do people keep voting for me? This is really getting stupid. I'm not sure if people are voting me because I'm actually scumhunting, or if people are voting me because God forboid a lot of my early-day 1 reads are gut (what the hell else couldthey be based on?) but nobody on this wagon has given any kind of reason for voting me. I mean, the only person who even tried to make a case was BBT, but he's probably scum.
Lowell, why is it that you said one thing about me that was 100% false, I proved it was 100% false, you didnt' respond, then you said another thing about me that was 100% wrong, I proved it was 100% wrong, and you then ingored both points and voted for me with no explanation?
I mean, if nobody else is going to try to actually play mafia this game, then I'll stop putting so much effort in, that's fine.
The AtE is strong with this one. This is what you call over-reacting, my friend. You only have 3 votes. I need another 4 to lynch you, don't panic just yet.
In post 216, AlwaysInnocent wrote:If Yosarian is town, then BBT might indeed be scum.
This is bad. How have you made this connection?Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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BlueBloodedToffee Survivor
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In post 226, shaddowez wrote:
BBT- You seem to keep popping in and picking apart people's posts, but haven't really provided any information or seem to be looking to understand things. Do you have some thoughts you'd like to share?
Is there something in particular you're looking for? I think I have provided plenty of information and have shown my thought process around several issues so far.
In post 227, AlwaysInnocent wrote:I don't really have scumreads at this point. However if I have to make a guess, then scum could be among these people:
BBT
Albert B.
KMD
Yosarian
Why for each?
In post 229, Yosarian2 wrote:
Uh. What? I'm playing in an incredibly risky fashion to the point of recklessness here to try and lynch scum.
What? How is your play in any way reckless and how are you trying to lynch scum? You're voting a lurker, a lurker who you have no case on I should add.
In post 235, Yosarian2 wrote:
I mean, obviously i knew that calling half the people in the game town was going to get me attacked, and defending contraversial people like AI, you, Albert, and rolf was likely to get me voted. But I'm clearly right; it really looks like all 4 of you are town. If I was scum I'd have sat back and let you 4 tear each other up.
OK, so this makes no sense at all. Youexpectedto be attacked for your reads-list (cough *you're lying* cough), I attacked you, and you called me scum for it? Can you explain how that works when you was expecting to be attacked?
In post 246, Yosarian2 wrote:
Scum don't have to "take control of the game". If the loudest and most agressive players are town and they all fight each other, the scum can just stay out of the way and let them fight.
This is another comment in a growing list of comments that seem to directly contradict your read on me. Let's talk about that.
In post 246, Yosarian2 wrote:I find it incredibly frustrating that there's a wagon on me for no real reason when i feel like my play has been so on point, and so effective, and so obviously pro-town.
I actually laughed out loud when I read this sentence. The pro-town part just killed me.
In post 248, Albert B. Rampage wrote:My scum pool is Lowell and Lucky.
I feel like your vote is getting stale.
Thoughts on why Lowell and Lucky are scum and thoughts on Yos?Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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BlueBloodedToffee Survivor
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In post 265, AlwaysInnocent wrote:If BBT is indeed town, then it is likely that Yosarian is scum.
Why?
In post 266, Albert B. Rampage wrote:Both are town.
Yos really isn't town ABR - I would like you to join the Yos wagon.
Naked votes are best. Why?
In post 314, Albert B. Rampage wrote:I missed that post. Nevertheless, my second point stands.
Second time you have done this and that makes me nervous.
In post 322, Kmd4390 wrote:
He's probably reading it in a different tone than I am. I see someone going "hey we played a game together and now we're both here, cool". Maybe Yos saw more seriousness? I dunno. That's my best guess, but it definitely didn't come off as aggressive to me. I also don't think aggression is a town tell though, so meh.
What I was trying to get at is that I think Yos' reasons for town reading ABR are BS. I think it's an early read to try and pocket ABR (and I think it's working). I don't think scum!Yos reads scum!ABR like that, I think he would try and flesh out the read a little more. I think this is scum!Yos trying to pocket town!ABR and nullify a potential threat to him. The fact he stated that ABR could easily manipulate the meta but still called him town felt all kinds of wrong to me as well.Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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BlueBloodedToffee Survivor
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In post 329, Yosarian2 wrote:
In post 145, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:
Ah, the old completely unnecessary, randomly inserted reads-list. A favourite for scum to look like they have 'reads' and are 'doing things'.
So no, you did not raise any specific problems with my list when I posted it. You claimed it was "unnecessary" which it clearly was not since i didn't know who to vote for until i went back and read everyone's comments in ISO and made a list of who i liked. I suppose i didn't have to share the list, but i think it's helpful to be transparent about your reads. And you claimed i was "trying to look like I was doing things" which is silly, i was certanly doing more "things" then many other people in the game at the time.
I see, so what you're saying is I said your reads-list was unnecessary, random, an attempt to look like you had reads (look pro-town) and an attempt to look busy (pro-town) but none of those constitute as problems to you? OK then.
That's the whole point, there was no need for you to share that reads-list at that point in the game. Page 4 reads-lists aren't worth shit.
In post 329, Yosarian2 wrote:Except that was an awesome list, especally for page 4. And I notice you still can't say anything specific against it.
Except for all that stuff you just wrote about? OK.
In post 329, Yosarian2 wrote:I posted it because it's good to share your reads with the rest if the town. Reasons are less important then what the reads are.
No, it isn't. It's quite easy to infer people's reads from the way they talk about/to people. Reads-lists simply are not needed.
In post 329, Yosarian2 wrote:Consistency is a scum tell.
No, it really isn't. Reading different people differently for the same actions is scummy and shows a flaw in your thought process.
In post 329, Yosarian2 wrote:Ok. Now we're getting somewhere. You think AI is scum? Can you explain why?
I could do, but I'm much more interested in getting you lynched right now.
In post 330, roflcopter wrote:ok at this point i could lynch either ai or yos today, nostalgia be damned. they're both scum.
You should absolutely join the Yos wagon.
In post 331, AlwaysInnocent wrote:How about Yosarian + KMD?
You seem to think Yos has a decent chance of being scum and if I remember correctly you spoke earlier about bigger wagon being more effective than one vote wagons? How about you join the Yos wagon?
In post 332, Yosarian2 wrote:
Did you miss the part where I townread half the people in the game on page 4? I mean, obviously not since that's the excuse you gave for voting me.
You can't make your mind up can you. Depending on what you're talking about, your top half was 'town reads' or it was 'people who had something you liked', you can't just chop and change your opinion depending on what argument you want to try and present.
In post 329, Yosarian2 wrote:But that doesn't at all explain your reaction, which was much stronger then that and really made no sense at all, especally since you are not a newbie.
Why doesn't it explain the action? You expected to be attacked for your reads-list, and I attacked you. That seems quite a natural flow of events.
In post 329, Yosarian2 wrote:Not all scum play that way, of course. Did you really think that I was saying no scum are ever active, or that all scum have the exact same playstyle?
Scum are at least somewhat more likely then town to lurk and/or try to stay out of the spotlight. That is simply true. Of course some town lurk, and of course some scum are active and aggressive.
You attempt to find "contradictions" where there clearly aren't any is not really making you look better.
Of course you have to state that, otherwise you would have no reasons for thinking I am scum (even though you're still yet to put your vote where your mouth is).
There are clearly contradictions in your posts and how they correlate to your reads. I just showed you one.Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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BlueBloodedToffee Survivor
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In post 368, Albert B. Rampage wrote:Lucky is still our best bet for a scum flip.
I think Yosarian-BBT is town-town right now.
ABR, I really don't want to lynch you on day two when Yosarian flips scum. You should be on this wagon.
Why is Lucky scum? You keep ignoring me when I'm asking you to explain your reads.
In post 370, Lowell wrote:snip
You have still ignored my questions from earlier on, can you get around to them?
In post 374, texcat wrote:
I don't understand the whole problem with Yos scum hunting by town hunting. Doesn't everyone do that to some extent?
There is no problem with Yosarian town hunting, it's a valid technique. I think you have misunderstood the reasoning for my read.
In post 376, Kmd4390 wrote:
Hmm. I could actually see that. And ABR is tunnely so getting on his good side is definitely beneficial for scum. That's entirely possible. What do you think about my response though? That he may have read it in a different tone? Do you think that's possible or are you pretty convinced your theory is accurate?
Yeah, I don't understand how he read it as aggression. I can't think of the right word to explain it but I felt like ABR was just being dramatic for effect, it wasn't serious posting.
I understand people can read posts in different ways but I don't know how he could read that as aggression.
Anen, why won't you join the Yos wagon?
People who haven't yet given an opinion on Yos should do so now as well.Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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An investigation can confirm anyone, I see that as no reason to not pursue his lynch today.
Yeah, your read on Lucky didn't make much sense to me. It read like you thought he was worried about you scum reading him and was feigning paranoia? I don't see that if that's what you think was happening.
I think if AI is scum he will be much easier to catch than Yos. I much prefer a Yos lynch Today.Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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No, I'm bored of going around in circles with you and having to deal with your flat out false statements/accusations.
I'll just wait for you to eat rope and then gloat.
If anybody else does not understand my scum read on Yos I will gladly explain it one more time; though I feel I have already been more than clear on it.Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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Is it hard to leave the thread when you're scum and under pressure?
Always have that feeling that you need to defend yourself in case you get lynched while you're away?
Fortunately, I can help you. Let me relieve that pressure by tying this rope gently around your neck...Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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In post 412, Kmd4390 wrote:
I don't like BBT not replying to Yos' case but the case wasn't that great to begin with. I know this sucks, but I could go either way on both players.
There really wasn't anything to respond to. Yos just keeps throwing out false accusations, not much I can do about that.
In post 413, Yosarian2 wrote:
Look at his word choices. He keeps saying stuff like "page 4 reads are shit" and going way out of his way to try to discredit that list. He's not just trying to lynch me, he's trying to lynch me and to discredit that list.
Ah, now I understand what you were trying to get me to do. I wondered why you kept asking me to attack your list, it didn't seem right. But I see now that you were trying to get me to do it so you could use this attack on me and say I was trying to discredit your reads. I didn't fall into line for you so you've decided to just go ahead and use it anyway. That's actually pretty well thought out but shows a CLEAR scum motivation behind what you were trying to do.
Just to clarify, not once have I attempted to discredit Yosarian's reads-list. I think I might have questioned him on some of the reads, but I have not tried to discredit them. The main reason for my scum read was the timing and purpose of Yos' reads list. Yos, however, was trying to take me down that avenue of discrediting him and his reads with posts like this;
Look at how Yos is attempting to get me to directly discredit either him or his reads when I was more than clear about what my problems with Yos were. He is trying to set me up for a fall, and when it doesn't work, he goes ahead and attacks me with it anyway. This shows pretty clear scum motivation behind Yos' posting in his attempts to try and set up an attack on me.
He probably really believes hes going to get me lynched today. He's wrong, I'm not that easy to mislynch, but he doesn't know me that well. So if he really thought i was going to flip scum, then he wouldn't need to discredit my reads like that. But I think he knows I'm going to flip town, so he wants to discredit my reads as well.
I laughed when I read this because I also remembered you saying this;
In post 235, Yosarian2 wrote:I always seem to get mislynched as town for no fucking reason these days and it pisses me off.
So you're not easy to 'mislynch' but you always get mislynched? Looks like that AtE worked out for you in the end, huh?
Yos is pretty fucking clearly scum here so what the fuck happened to the wagon on him?Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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In post 415, roflcopter wrote:unvote, vote: always innocent
ftr kmd is still a scumread and he is still looking very scumbuddytastic with always innocent. i also hate the whole paragraph above that starts with "for those wondering..." about yos and bbt, it's so scummy i want to barf. yos and bbt both town? i am actually coming on board with that conclusion a bit right now. yos really needs to ignore bbt and do something else with his time right now though i'm not reading any more of that back and forth.
I don't get your Kmd scum read and I have no idea why your read on Yos was starting to change to a town read. Can you elaborate on both please?
In post 418, Yosarian2 wrote:KMD: looking back, i think this was the post that gave me a good vibe on ABR in the first few pages.
In post 59, Albert B. Rampage wrote:So you want me to town it up for yall or am I playing my normal scummy game?
Maybe agressive wasn't quite the right word. Provocative? Deliberately challanging? Whatever. Just the kind of post I'd expect town ABR to make to try to get a reaction. Not the kind of joke you'd expect scum to make.
So the reason for your ABR town read has changed now? Because previously it was based on him picking fights, and now that I have shown that to be false, you have produced a brand new reason? Just gotta keep ABR on your good side, right?
In post 423, Yosarian2 wrote:KMD: This was what I said.
In post 121, Yosarian2 wrote:
ABR is basically playing in his normal meta. Loud, obnoxious, picking fights. It's basically how I expect town-ABR to act. It's not really an alignment tell, he could do that as either alignment, but I haven't seen any red flags from him yet.
I don't think I ever actually called ABR "aggressive".
And now we're going into semantics. You're so fucking scummy it's actually killing me.Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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In post 430, AlwaysInnocent wrote:Meh. I don't know about Yosarian anymore. After skimming through his ISO a bit, my impression of him is different. Perhaps I was too paranoid when he was townreading me.
UNVOTE: Yosarian
What did you see in his ISO that made you change your mind?
In post 432, acryon wrote:
This makes sense. Only way this is wrong is if the two are both scum. And if they are, there is no reason for scum-Yos to comment on it like he did. Yos is town people.
UNVOTE:
I don't get the unvote at all? You think Yos is no longer scum because he has provided reasoning for a town read?
In post 437, Lowell wrote:unvote
VOTE: AlwaysInnocent
I still think yos might be the better play (given the yos/AI interactions earlier) but it's time to apply pressure on AI. Also, Anen and rofl are my two strongest townreads, so I'm comfortable with this.
If you think Yos is the better play then you really need to be on that wagon. You STILL haven't answered my questions from earlier and I'm losing patience now.Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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There is a very clear difference in what I was saying, of course, I don't expect you to understand it. (Or at least admit to understanding it)
PEdit - Is it scummy as fuck because you said so or is there any reason for it?Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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I mean, I quoted your own posts to make my point and you claim you're confused.
Do you not understand your own points? It's not me saying I haven't attacked your reads list specifically, it's you.Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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No, you claimed I was trying to discredit you. Which I wasn't. I very clearly explained my problem with your reads-list.
You insisted on trying to make me discredit you, I didn't fall for it, but then you attacked me anyway saying all I was trying to do was discredit you. You're flat out lying.Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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I'll finish catching up and respond at some point.
I'm absolutely astonished nobody is seeing what I'm seeing. I feel like I have taken crazy pills and entered a different world.Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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In post 452, Yosarian2 wrote:I only voted BTT yesterday, and a number of people haven't even posted since I made my case against him.
You don't have a case on me. You called my scum read on you bullshit and voted me. That's not a case.
In post 455, texcat wrote:
I don't think BBT's total focus on Yos is pro-town. Yos, at least, is commenting on others.
That's untrue, I have commented/interacted with a number of players outside of Yos. Yos is my primary focus though, yeah.
In post 458, AlwaysInnocent wrote:I kind of agree with Shaddowez there, so I will be joining the Lowell wagon.
VOTE: Lowell
This feel town...too brazen for scum. Vote isn't 'fleshed out' enough.
In post 461, Kop wrote:
His second post into the thread, he claimed BBT was town but took several posts to actually state why. Early game tells me, especially with there not being a lot of interaction or serious posts, it is hard to say someone is town with such confidence that Lowell did, on this occasion. I have never town read someone so early, even if some of there early posting shows town points.
Yet Yos had 5 town read by page 4 and you had no problem with that?
In post 468, texcat wrote:
Kop, it seems to me that you took Lowell's comment way out of context, leaving off entirely the part about it won't backfire.
This is a really good post.
In post 470, Kop wrote:
I did have a quick glance over the Yos Vs BBT, I'd struggle to figure out who would be scum in that situation, because it feels town vs town. But I will go over the whole thing again in a few hours, once I've done all my bits and bobs.
Have you done this yet? What makes you think it's town vs town?
In post 473, roflcopter wrote:toffee the yos wagon is dead time for you to get on the ai wagon
It isn't. I'm not leaving my #1 scum read until I have to. You really need to read my latest post on Yos and rejoin this wagon.Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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In post 477, Aneninen wrote:
I simply can't imagine a scum asking that. (Although I haven't got the slightest idea what "proxy a vote" means.)
I know Kmd pulled this up but I'm parroting it. I find it super strange that you're town reading someone when you don't even understand what you're town reading them for.
In post 487, shaddowez wrote:
BBT- Outside of the lists and disagreeing on how things works, what are you seeing that's scummy about Yos that it's worth having your vote parked there?
I actually want to smash my face into a brick wall. What you basically just said was 'Outside of your reasons for scum reading Yos, do you have any reason to believe he is scum'. What the fuck? You should go back to my latest pot about Yos, read it, then vote him.
This post just pinged me hard.
This feels like a roundabout way of asking ABR if he is scum reading you. That's scummy.Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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In post 501, texcat wrote:
I agree that BBT's early game was not so much of a tunnel. And tunneling is not necessarily scummy; plenty of townies do it, but I'd almost never call it pro-town.
You know what one of the worst things about this game is? Catching scum early and then letting them go because something else caught your eye. The amount of times I have been all over scum early game only to see another post catch my attention, change direction, end up lynching town and forgetting about my earlier scum read is unreal.
I refuse to keep making the same mistakes over and over. I admit a lot of my attention is focused on Yos, but I'm pretty fucking sure he is scum. I have other reads, I don't think it's too difficult to infer what they are from my posts that are not about Yos.
ABR pocketed? Check.
ABR joined the wagon I'm pushing? Check.
Keep on ABR's goodside by repeatedly stating how town he is. Check.
If I don't manage to lynch Yos today and either I, or ABR, get killed N1. Please fucking lynch this.
In post 519, Yosarian2 wrote:
The list was literally the only real thing you attacked me for. That was your entire case. That is all you had. And now you're claiming I was "trying to get you to attack your list?"
Just wanna go over this one more time because I'm either not explaining myself well or people just are not reading closely enough (I know this happens a lot when there is a 1v1 going on.)
Correct, I attacked your reads-list. I attacked your reads-list for the timing of it and the purpose I believed was the reason for you posting it. You tried to change the reasoning behind my attack, you tried to say I was trying to discredit you and your reads. That's not what I was doing.
You continued to try, by asking leading questions, to get me to attack your reads or the list itself. When I didn't do either, you just started stating that's what I was attacking anyway.
Your posts were very calculated. You tried to steer me in a direction and manipulate my posts in a way in which you could attack me for it. That's not how town work, that's scum.Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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In post 540, Yosarian2 wrote:Basically, it looks like you're faking a super-obsessed-tunnel on me because you think that tunneling will make you look pro-town, even though you don't really seem to have any real reasons for voting me. If you were town you'd either be making a real argument against me or else you'd have changed targets by now.
Yeah, tunneling is always seen as pro town
I have made an argument, a very good argument, but people don't seem to be reading it closely enough.
This is a bad vote and you should feel bad for it.
In post 545, Kmd4390 wrote:Yeah, I'm with Yos on the most recent Yos/BBT exchange. BBT calling Yos' posts an attempt to discredit feels ridiculously manipulative. I like Yos' post 531 and think BBT should do that. It should be easy if he's so sure Yos is scum. If BBT is town though, I don't like Tex's sheep vote.
I didn't say Yos' posts were an attempt to discredit me - you're not reading closely enough. Yos is accusing ME of trying to DISCREDIT him, I'm saying he made a calculated attack on my posts and the direction he was trying to steer me in.
In post 547, Lowell wrote:I've had a long-running assumption that BBT is town. But all right, I guess I'll reexamine that. 531 makes an interesting point. And I agree with AI's 543.
Oh, you will? How about you answer my question from page 5 or whatever it was?
In post 548, Albert B. Rampage wrote:
I know for a fact that he takes other players' opinions into account, plays strategically, knows what lynches can and can't be done, etc.
He's only interested in engaging Yosarian with weak ass arguments. He looks like he's holding on to his positions tightly instead of evolving reads. I'm pretty sure he's scum, seen him do the same thing before.
This doesn't make sense. Let's talk about it some more.
Are you talking about town BBT or scum BBT here? Also, you didn't answer my question; I asked if you had ever seen me tunnel as town.Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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In post 562, Lowell wrote:
Don't really recall. I could iso myself but that's bullshit. I think I just had an early read on him as playing townish. But I'm starting to buy what ABR is selling, I think. And it does fit with what scum might do: (1) jump in early, get ppl to say you're town; (2) do nothing else; (3) win. So as I said I'll reconsider.
(2) Do nothing...funniest shit I have read in this thread. Seriously.
In post 563, Kmd4390 wrote:BBT, I don't remember you being this tunnely...
I tunnel as either alignment.
I just did. He hopped aboard the wagon very nonchalant. I don't think he would do that as scum, it just looks too obvious. Scum tend to flesh their votes out more so they look more legit when people revisit them after flips, I'm not seeing that from AI.
In post 578, Aneninen wrote:What counts as "have to"?
Either I'm in danger of being lynched or we're running out of time.
In post 578, Aneninen wrote:I f-cking don't care whether ABR scumreads me. I wanted (and want) to get a read on him, which is hard because of his posting style. I'd say he's town, but only because of his style, and someone pointed out that it would be insufficient reasoning to townread him, especially because I hadn't seen his scum-game yet.
Also, it's disappointing that he didn't answer that post. Had he done so, I could have seen whether his reads were/are consistent.
His recent push and vote on you is strange, too. (And as for this, it lacks consistency!) Yet again, I want to know (1) he's scumreading for real reasons (2) he's misreading you or (3) he's faking.
OK, I agree that ABR can be difficult to read (I'm pretty sure he has tricked me before) but I still don't like the way you phrased that post. I mean, if you were looking for consistency in his reads, why didn't you ask who he thought was scum on the wagon? Why provide him with his previous reads and thus give him a much lower chance of slipping up? It doesn't really make sense.
In post 578, Aneninen wrote:And your read on ABR is...?
I feel like he is town but I want to scum read him out of frustration. I have no problems admitting that I struggle to read ABR (as I do with most people who post one-liners a lot of the time) but it feels like he is town this game. I don't think he would go after me as scum.
In post 578, Aneninen wrote:Calculated?
Yeah, I have explained why. On numerous occasions.Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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In post 584, Yosarian2 wrote:
Yeah, this is terrible. Especially since it's factually wrong; when I called ABR obvtown, he was not on the wagon I was pushing, and in fact had just basically called me an idiot who was hurting the game by continuing to push your wagon. You're quoting post 509 here, and ABR didn't vote for you until 520, after you had finally stopped lurking and made some fresh posts.
I didn't say he was, that was mostly tongue in cheek. The main point is, and I'm sure you understood this, you have pocketed ABR. He is no threat to you today and I think that would be an aim for you if you were scum. I couldn't understand your initial town read on him, when you explained it, I showed you that you were incorrect for town reading him for them reasons. Did you reevaluate? No. You kept him as town and started producing different reasons for your read. It all felt off, it's not what I would expect town to do.
In post 584, Yosarian2 wrote:I mean, do you disagree with my town read on ABR? Because it would be incredibly scummy for you to attack me for town reading ABR if you are also town reading ABR here. If you don't agree with me about ABR, then explain why you don't agree and I'd be glad to discuss it.
I'm pretty sure you will have read a previous post of mine in which I state my read on ABR. I can attack someone's reasoning for town reading someone if I don't think they are legit; even if I'm town reading that same person. What you just said is a load of nonsense.
In post 584, Yosarian2 wrote:I speculated about the motives behind your attack on my reads-list, which is a little different then "changing the reasoning". If you are scum, then you probably have other motives for the things you do beyond the surface ones, and I was speculating about that.
You didn't need to speculate, I outright told you what my reasons were.
In post 584, Yosarian2 wrote:In any case, that speculation wasn't terribly important at this point in the game; it'll be useful after you get lynched, assuming you flip scum, to help us find your buddies, but it wasn't the basis of my suspicion on you.
Of course it was. I attacked you for reasoning A, B and C. You then tried to spin that attack into reasons D, E and F which is obviously not the same thing. If I had gone along with what you said, you then would have accused me of trying to discredit you and your reads (which was not my reasoning).
In post 584, Yosarian2 wrote:But your attack didn't make a lot of sense anyway. There's nothing wrong with having a bunch of weak town reads on page 4, and there's nothing wrong with sharing your reads with the rest of the town, and there's nothing wrong with doing it as a list instead of in some other way. Frankly, I don't even see how any of those things could be considered anti-town. I keep pointing this out, and you keep basically avoiding discussing it in any meaningful way, even though it is supposedly the whole basis for your read on me.
Correct, there is nothing wrong with having a bunch of weak town reads on page 4. There is EVERYTHING wrong with sharing them, there is no need to. Your reads will change within 2 pages at that point of the game and then your old reads become redundant very quickly. The only reasoning to share reads at that stage is to look 'pro-town'. You look like you have genuine reads and are trying to solve the game. It's pretty much summed up by LAMIST.
In post 585, texcat wrote:BBT, I just don't understand how you can be so confident in your Yos read, given the slim amount of evidence. It smells off to me.
I'll let you in on a little secret. I'm always 100% confident. Even if I'm only 50/50 on someone, I'm 100% confident. There is no point in tip-toeing around people, subtly is not my forte. If something pings me, I push it and I push it hard, then I gauge my read further based on their reaction to my pushing.
Yos' reaction to my push wasn't great. He was twisting my attack into something it wasn't, his reasoning for his read on ABR was inconsistent, he went straight on the defensive (which isn't always scummy, but in this case it is, because of how long it took him to come around to his 'read'), he AtE hugely (when he started talking about how he always gets mislynched) and then this changed into a sudden confidence that he would not be getting lynched. Everything about his reaction is pinging me and that has strengthened my read on him considerably.Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.-
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His AtE (appeal to emotion) is where he starts shouting about how he always gets mislynched and life is so unfair to him (disclaimer - he didn't say the last part).
He was basically all like why are people voting me? I'm being so pro town, what is going on? I'm trying so hard and getting voted and I always get mislynched. Staaahhhp guys. (disclaimer - he didn't say the last part)Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.