Mini Normal 1711: Flavor not required. D2 deadline: 9/29/15

[catboi]

'firm

[catboi]

VOTE: kyubey

Second to last to confirm, obvious scum.

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Shinobi

Scum line.

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Shinobi

Scum line.

What makes you say that?

Thanks for confirming it~

[catboi]

No, why would I do something like that?

[catboi]

Yeah that's clearly why he replaced out, good one

[catboi]

VOTE: catboi
k I'm annoyed.

Lol

Clearly I've struck a nerve

[catboi]

lol, How does any of that add up to being scum?

[catboi]

lol, How does any of that add up to being scum?

Which part?
The "you're not really doing anything" part or the "unexplained scumread" part? I think both of those things are enough to warrant votes/rope.

Assuming you disagree with that assessment, what else would you propose?

Pedit: I'm sort of aware of that but I'm really tired of staring at nothing and I really wanna do stuff.
SO.
Let's do stuff.

Not really doing anything on page 2 is a scumtell? Great argument, that. Please try to explain how this applies to me, and not every single player in the game. As for not explaining my vote, when do scum actually vote someone without explanation? Again, what's the actual scumtell here? Lol. You've named off some things, but none of that poses an actual connection to, you know, scum motivation.

Are you just making things up to try to lynch me? 'cause that's what it looks like~

[catboi]

I fail to see how I'm making anything up about your general uselessness. Do you think that being useless is not a trait exhibited by mafia? Where else would you prefer I focus?

That wasn't what I asked you questions about, don't dodge. I'm asking you to explain the scum motivation behind the things you're accusing me of. I don't see how "uselessness" is a scum tell especially given

the game's just started

. This is weak, weak stuff.

And I'll also add that anyone who genuinely believes I'm being useless is a dunce~

Really, If you'd like to start making sense that would be fine by me, but if you want to make stoopid arguments on non-tells that are thinly veiled OMGUS, be my guest.

[catboi]

Not really doing anything on page 2 is a scumtell?

Great argument, that.

Please try to explain how this applies to me, and not every single player in the game.

As for not explaining my vote,

when do scum actually vote someone without explanation?

Again, what's the actual scumtell here?

Lol. You've named off some things, but none of that poses an actual connection to, you know, scum motivation.

You're ducking these. Hard.

And talking about scum motivation is everything given you can't seem to come up with a decent explanation for

why anything I've done makes me scum

despite seemingly having a strong conviction. I'm looking for a clue as to whether you actually believe anything you're saying.

p-edit:

As for not explaining my vote, when do scum actually vote someone without explanation?

Do you really think this is a valid explanation? If you truly believe this, what's stopping anyone from just naked voting the whole game without explanation? That would make them town according to your logic.

That wasn't strictly rhetorical, I actually wanted to hear an answer. Of course, I never actually argued votes never need to be explained. But sometimes it's more useful to not explain things overmuch. In general, "voting without explanation" is a crap tell used by people who don't know better - and right now I'm trying to suss out whether Shinobi actually believes what he's saying or is just trying to push back on me due to feeling threatened.

[catboi]

also,

I honestly think Cat is just trying to get a reaction from you.Seems like you,wants to get shit goin,but he' going about it in a different way. Way too early to form anything of substance. I'm personally not a fan of that style,but whatever.

I have nothing on Radiant. Nothing there yet. I guess I.myself am somewhat curious what "Scum line" is..

While I wish you wouldn't step on my toes, you're obvtown, so that's nice.

VOTE: cowbells
until he explains his reads

This is town. Silly, but town.

[catboi]

I did two and one's on a person you've also stated is town. Come on.

[catboi]

That being said, I just want to point out that Catboi suddenly stop talking as soon as the attention was off him.

Insanely enough, I'm busy during the day and hadn't gotten a chance to post tonight until now. You ought to familiarize yourself with the pace here, it's not going to move as quick as you expect.



Got sick unexpectedly, going to try to do a more comprehensive post but if I get too tired it'll have to wait until the morning

[catboi]

I've seen such comments from scum before, especially given that we are likely pressuring his buddy if he's scum.

Not saying he's scum, just saying that it's pretty possible to go either way.

Thought about this (in reference to 63) and it's the "until" that makes me read it as town. Without that word, you'd be right, it'd be null or even leaning scum, but the way it's phrased he's just trying to push you for content and it seems town to me.

While I'm not saying Catboi is 100% scum, the fact that he's been the one getting people reactive isn't very pro-town. Spreading confusion and distrust is something that would only be advantageous for scum. Of course, maybe thats just how he plays and we really shouldn't be looking too deep into it, but it certainly looks shady.

You seem misguided. Getting people to react to things is the best way to evaluate them, to try to get a genuine response. Otherwise, in the early game, you have essentially nothing to go on.

That said, how does "getting people reactive" equate to "spreading confusion and distrust"? What does the latter even mean? I don't really know what you're trying to say by this. (I'd argue that confusion and distrust is the default state of the game, but that feels like an unnecessary tangent.

Not really doing anything on page 2 is a scumtell?

Great argument, that.

Please try to explain how this applies to me, and not every single player in the game.

As for not explaining my vote,

when do scum actually vote someone without explanation?

Again, what's the actual scumtell here?

Lol. You've named off some things, but none of that poses an actual connection to, you know, scum motivation.

You're ducking these. Hard.

And talking about scum motivation is everything given you can't seem to come up with a decent explanation for

why anything I've done makes me scum

despite seemingly having a strong conviction. I'm looking for a clue as to whether you actually believe anything you're saying.

Where's the scum motivation in being useless?
Seriously?

Stop harping on semantics and tell me who is mafia.

You are, given that you continue avoiding giving answers to some very straightforward questions and respond with ridicule instead. It shouldn't be that hard at all to explain why the reason you're voting someone is an actual tell but you seem unwilling to do so, which is giving me a strong sense you don't actually believe any of the crap you're peddling. Instead you're just pushing on packaged "scumtells" in the hope people will follow them.

If you really want an explanation as to why I picked you over everyone else, it's because you were around and posting but not moving the game forward.
It's really simple.

Nyaa, not buying whatsoever that you're some master puppeteer and your vote on me was le epic reaction test, given the circumstances and around it and the way you pushed it it looked like a sincere attempt to lynch me using extremely crappy reasoning that you're now trying to back your way out of.

Why, to either of these reads?

Already explained Jean, scorp read is primarily a meta one, from games of his i've seen as scum he's much more stiff and awkward in his posts where here he's much more genuine.

Shinobi strikes me as town. His frustation seems genuine and I can certainly understand it.

Lol, how? If anything, the fact that he got frustrated with an unerexplained page 1 vote makes him more likely to be scum.

[catboi]

I get that RVS is over, but do you really think your vote is better off not being used? RVS might be over for everybody else, but every second you spend not using your vote, you end up wasting town's resources. Not necessarily scummy but for sure anti-town.

VOTE: Scorpious

more analysis later tonight, been really bogged down.

Nah

Shinobi give reasons please. You ask other people to.

Sure.
I like the way both of you are thinking about this game, plus both of you seem more interested in moving things forward/scumhunting than sitting around and doing nothing.

It sounds a bit generic but I trust both of you more than the other shmucks in this game.

Lol this is absolutely terrible

As for my suspicion of Catboi, I don't really have any clue as to whether or not he's scum, but they way he kept poking Shinobi even though he just seemed a bit confused struck me as odd.

I kept pushing him because at the time, I wasn't sure if he was scum or town who was hung up on some silly ideas. My plan was to keep pushing until I got some sort of reaction from him that would be telling, one way or the other. His last few posts have really solidified the scumread in my mind.


Also, scorp's last post is bad. He should make less bad posts like that one.

[catboi]

Given that it was in response to me calling a player town, I didn't have a problem with it. He was just saying he thinks it's a nulltell rather than a towntell.

[catboi]

UNVOTE:
I've completely lost interest in this conversation. When you feel like being useful, let me know.

VOTE: RC
I'm happier with my vote here atm.

Pedit: This game isn't really fun so I'm not really putting my back into solving it.

Garbage. Lynch this scumbag now. He's completely avoiding trying to give a rational explanation for anything he's said/done, and is copping out now to vote a target he feels might have more momentum. If I need to re-iterate my case to get people to pay attention, I'll do it, but there is absolutely no way I'm letting him get away with a total cop-out like this. This is the furthest thing in the world from genuine scumhunting.

How is this any different from what Shinobi did to you when asking about the "scum line"?

uhhh...what? They're completely different things. RC simply told me he thought a townread I stated was null. Shinobi flipped out on me because I refused to explain a vote made on page 1. I don't see how the two are equivalent at all?

[catboi]

I tried to get an opinion out of you that was anything other than "you're scum because 'reasons.'"
Interacting with you on pretty much any level aside from having you fling scum in my face for every little thing is clearly a waste of time.

If you have any actual questions that aren't meaningless/based on semantics, let me know.

Nah, at this point I'm not expecting a real answer from you, because you're not town. You're made that pretty clear by refusing to answer simple questions and using absolutely terrible reasoning. Just need to help other people see what's obvious to me.

Uh not really, I have seen town get frustated more often than scum. Besides it just looked like he was trying to move the game foward. But I dont like his posts in page 5 at all actually, that unvote is really scummy.

Free of context, sure, town get frustrated. Flipping out because someone won't explain a vote on page 2 makes absolutely no sense from a town perspective nor really does any of his targeting of "uselessness" which is an absurd tell to be breaking out within, say, the first 8-9 pages of a game.

@catboi I interpreted the Shinobi 'incident' as him trying to get the ball rolling by asking what "scum line" meant, you avoiding the question for whatever reason, him pressing you some more with a vote, and you saying SHINOBI is the one overreacting? Am I wrong in the progression here?

Because from what I read you look worse off in that exchange.

I avoided the question because I'm under no obligation to explain an RVS vote, especially given not explaining leads to a better reaction than outing half-formed/gut reasoning (which is what you're going to get on page 1/2). And yes, flipping out and voting someone because they won't explain a vote on you, then calling them useless, is decidedly an overreaction. I don't think most town players have such a defensive reaction to a couple early votes. You maybe ought to re-read if you haven't seen that.

what would you rather me say,would you rather me post nothing at all? Damn you for making me phone post..

Ehh, possibly? It was a weird no content nothing post, if you see someone voting you then address it, just bringing it up is useless.

[catboi]

Well yeah, but the way you went about it seemed more like you were having fun messing with Shinobi instead trying to clear up whatever confusion he had. It would be really convenient for scum to have people even more confused/distrusting than they'd already be at the start of the game. Of course, like I've been emphasizing all game, it would be stupid of me to take any assumptions I currently have and buy into them without letting the game play out more. It's not that I think that you're scum, it's that out of the banter we've all had going, yours sticked out the most to me as "slightly suspicious". Though the fact that you're calling for Shinobi to be lynched without much proof isn't helping your case. Can you explain your reasoning more deeply?

I have plenty, if you can't see it, that's largely your fault. If you don't think a continued refusal to answer questions or engage in meaningful dialogue with regards to his reasoning (when he voted me for similar reasons) is scummy, you're not paying attention. Your concerns strike me as largely nonsensical, my job isn't to alleviate his or anyone else's confusion, it's to determine who is scum. I was provocative, I'll admit - but it was with the purpose of trying to suss out his alignment and generate content, not just to aggravate him.

And yeah, more than willing to try to sum things up here in a case so that people understand it. Less than impressed with some of the votes flying around.

[catboi]

"The purpose of town is not to determine who is scum" - mafiascum user Shinobi, August 29, 2015

The reads were tossed off, lousy, weak, slapshod, and done with extremely tenuous reasoning, much like everything else you've posted. "I like the way both of you are thinking about the game" is fairly meaningless (how? about what?), and being "more interested in moving things forward/scumhunting than sitting around and doing nothing." is both vague and worthless, equating activity, essentially, with being a town-tell (it isn't, scum are going to want just as much as town to move things forward). It's a spectacularly lousy reason to think anyone's town.

Actually, if I'm not town for not answering simple questions, what does that make RC?

Somehow didn't parse that this was @ me, right now null, leans toward town slightly. Not really hard for me to understand the way he's playing at all, I suspect we think similarly. Of course, easy to fake the way he's played so far, but I'd expect that to reveal itself as time goes on. He's all about lynching you, which is points in his favor.

[catboi]

Finding scum is only 50% of the game.
The other half is convincing people you're right.
I get the point you're making but, really, come on.

then why even bring this up, unless you're just trying to be a tool?

Not really.
Let me reiterate this to you a third time:
You were spending time in the thread with an unexplained scumread and you were more content to make snide jabs at people than move the game in any significant direction. It is incredibly basic stuff. I found you to be the scummiest person in the thread at that particular moment and voted you for it.

If you don't feel the need to explain an RVS vote, then how should I ever read you if you won't bother explaining things? Your whole bit about reactions is essentially moot because you have no understanding of my range as either alignment - you're just saying it's scummy because "town wouldn't react that way, only scum would" when you aren't providing examples of me doing either or how it's out of the blue and scummy.

The thing you're saying only applies if you have meta to back it up, which you simply don't have.

Let's break this down:
Shinobi is overreacting to an unexplained vote. <----How and why is this scummy?
Shinobi voted me because he thinks I am useless. <----How is this inconsistent with your earlier posting and how can I only be mafia for thinking it?

I might have overlooked some bits, but those seem to make up the main crux of your case, which isn't really that strong on its own.

This is crap. Apparently accoring to you, all reads are worthless without meta or something? Fact is almost nothing you've done has seemed sincere or borne out of honest scumhunting, and a lot of comes off as exceedingly fake reasoning that doesn't really make sense.

Here's the deal: When I drop a vote like that early in the game, someone can brush it off, or they can do what you did and take it seriously. You didn't need to, but you did, and that in and of itself implies at least some level of nervousness that I've caught on to something. It's not a definitive tell or anything, but it's something I decided to push on, and your reactions have buried you, especially when you decided to vote me for decidedly crap reasoning that was quickly made invalid.

I find the notion that any player could be determined to be "useless"

on freaking page 2 of a game

absolutely ludicrous, the fact is by that point there's barely anything to go on, to think that I stood out in some way in that regard is ludicrous. That's not to mention the fact that no, I had a gut scum read on you and was advancing it at that very moment. Your reasoning was at most tinly-veiled OMGUS. Now, OMGUS voting isn't inherently a scumtell, I think town players do it a lot but the manner in which you tried to advance the vote was weak as hell. If you'd looked like frustrated town who think they're being pushed on a bad case I'd have bought it, but you didn't - you looked like scum trying to attack the people voting you.

The fact that you're trying to ask me these questions that drill down into my reasoning when you were so unwilling to answer them yourself is terrible, also.

No, it's not.
Activity and productivity are far more likely to point to townies than scum. Sure, there are exceptions, but as far as early game reads go, I think it's a spectacular reason to trust someone rather than someone who boldfacedly does nothing.

Why on earth would you ever think nothing/less of people who do stuff? That doesn't really sound like a good idea, tbh.

And as for being "fairly meaningless," there were two bits that I liked about both of them:
vijay's whole line of reasoning seems to be based on prodding Scorpius to do something, which I was already thinking before he actually posted it.
Spiffeh's whole bit on Kyubei refusing to give examples and positioning himself oddly on the whole "you" wagon was spot-on and insightful, and I liked his line of thinking.

This is 100% ludicrous dog crap. Suggesting activity is indicative of alignment early in the game is complete nonsense. It's indicative of nothing. Someone simply

doing things

doesn't make them town, and to suggest so is either lazy or idiotic. I lean toward it being scum lazily handing off reads for people who don't deserve them, because as scum you see towniness in everything, even when it's not really there. vijay pressuring scorp because he's not voting anyone is actually fairly weak, anyone can press on that sort of junk

because it's not really a tell

.

Unflipped associatives are bad because, the reality of it is,
Assuming that I'm town, what then?
And what's so easy to understand about his play? I don't really understand it at all - I see an unexplained scumread and a guy that doesn't care about what's going on. What's so towny about that?

Wasn't making associations at all - I just like the fact he's read you the exact same way I have, implying a similar line of thinking. I wouldn't expect you to be able to understand it.

[catboi]

sad thing is I expect no one's going to read that post given the playerlist

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jean

good lord lynch this

[catboi]

Scumhunting is towny, shockingly.

If only you'd actually done any.

Do you have any reason to believe that me voting Jean is actually bad aside from the fact that I dropped a vote after asking a question?

It's based on crap, superficial reasoning, much like everything you've done.

Bored. Someone needs to show up so I can pester them to vote shinobi.

[catboi]

Nah, let's talk~

Do you think someone "being useless" on page 2 of a game is a good reason to vote them?

[catboi]

It's better than RVS.

Is it really? To my mind it's a borderline nonsensical tell, you expect everyone to have been "useful" by page 2? That scum are somehow going to be unable to post content? (This is to put aside the fact that I was, very clearly, being

very

useful)

I see you're voting RC, I think that's a wrong vote but I'm also fairly sure I'm not going to be able to persuade you why at this point in time.

So, instead of that, tell me what you think of these 3 players:

JeanDarc
LexTrew
vijay2vasandani

[catboi]

No. You weren't.

Only a moron or scum would believe that, luckily you're the latter. Hush, I'm talking to spiffeh, I have nothing more to say to you at this point, and probably won't until I get you lynched.

Spiffeh is cancer, most of this lobby is bad, and Shinobi is probably scum.

Jesus, be polite. He's clearly trying even if his reasoning hasn't been great (why should it be?). Posts like this aren't going to help anyone. You don't have to stay in this game if you don't like it.

But if you do decide to stay, we could discuss who shinobi's partner is~. I've got some ideas, but want to hear what you think.

I mean really you saw the signup list, you should have known what you were getting into.

[catboi]

What exactly has you so convinced that your start was so immaculate and perfect that nobody could ever scumread you for it?

Nah, quit trying to misrep. I wasn't particularly bothered being voted being voted by kyubey, for instance - I felt like his reasoning was understandable but incorrect. I could always plausible understand someone incorrectly scumreading me, if their reasoning made sense. Your reasoning for that vote, and much of everything you've done, has been tortured to the point of blacking out. It's all based largely on superficial nonsense of "being useful" and "moving things forward" which is the most superficial of reasoning - you're just looking at how people

appear

in the game rather than the substance/intent of what they're actually doing, which shows that you're clearly not reading for actual scum motivation behind posts. Everything you've said has been about as far as imaginably possible from genuine scumhunting.

@catboi

Yes it was better than RVS because you actually reacted to it pretty strongly and I doubt an RVS vote would have emitted the same response. No I do not expect everyone to have been "useful" by page 2 but that has nothing to do with determining if the vote was good or not.

Why do you think RC is the wrong vote? Does it have to do with Shinobi voting for him earlier?

JeanDarc's ISO is pretty abysmal. Lots of question asking and theory-ish stuff but no content on the players other than saying someone was scum for replacing out.
LexTrew has even less. I get a more gut town read on him though idrk why. I think it's the "can we talk?" post.
I thought vijay's #46 was weird because he implies you are scum but doesn't follow up on it and votes for someone completely different in his next post.

I do not believe RC is any better than these three so I will be keeping my vote. I would like to hear more from them though, obviously.

I think what you're missing here was that his vote was pretty clearly a reaction to what I was doing in the first place (and a poor one at that), but maybe you're not experienced enough to recognize that. So it goes.

Read on RC has very little to do with Shinobi, much more to do with playstyle and I wouldn't expect you to understand. At the time of the post I wasn't totally solid on my read of him but still felt he didn't seem like scum, I think 70-71 were decent in that in that he expressed doubt in my reasoning and my actions - it wouldn't really be to his benefit to suddenly turn on me when I was siding with him initially. But moreso than that I just think him having short posts is something that gets scumread by inexperienced players that don't know better.

I do think his most recent post expressing frustration is probably genuine town though, don't think he'd be so overtly antagonistic as scum.

Wasn't trying to imply that any of those players were scummy by asking you to read them, I just wanted you to comment on people you hadn't mentioned yet so I could better get a read on you. Agree that Jean's recent posting hasn't been great. Would actually disagree in that I think Lex is the most likely of the 3 to be scum though - get zero sense of legitimate scumhunting from him. Hadn't realized vijay only has 5 posts, not really a lot to go by there, I should have picked someone else. I've no idea whether #46 was supposed to be serious or not given how early in the game it was.

Although looking at vijay does raise a good point: Shinobi town-reading him is

abysmal

[catboi]

Catboi stop trying to discredit my vote by writing it off as inexperience. You should know that votes this early on are not set in stone and pressure votes exist. RadiantCowbells' most recent post does not do him any favors. I have asked him to elaborate on his Shinobi read and he has not. This is anti-town at best because we well get punished down the road if we allow this behavior to continue, especially in a small game like this.

And FYI I'm not new to forum mafia so please stop treating me like I am. (That sounds sassy but it's not meant to be)

(though it did kind of annoy me)

I'm not trying to discredit you whatsoever, I just disagree with your reasoning heavily. These are different things given the fact I think your reasoning is probably coming from a legitimate thought process. It's just that in fact, what you're doing now really is a typical mistake - you're associating anti-town behavior with being scummy, when the two aren't really related (in most circumstances. there are always exceptions). I agree that he's not being helpful, but to assume this is because he's scum pounding the table raging and refusing to answer, is, well, stoopid. It's very rare for a scum player to demonstrate that sort of hostility/frustration he expresses in his post. You need to try to understand people's thought processes more.

[catboi]

Catboi I called RadiantCowbells out for still being on his RVS vote.
He told me that there is nothing random about the vote.
I asked him to explain why he thinks Shinobi is scum, since he claims his vote was serious.
He refuses to do so.
I am not tolerating it and you shouldn't either. His behavior is promoting apathy which destroys towns in games this small. This is the scummiest thing I have seen so far, so I am voting for him.

What exactly are you trying to accomplish right now? You said you weren't going to try to convince me to unvote RC but it looks like that's exactly what you are doing. Why not let the vote play out and see RC's response rather than stifle it?

I said I didn't expect to persuade you to unvote. And so far I'm right. The conversation just turned to be about him and I'm not sure why and don't feel like looking back (because truthfully that detail isn't important). I think you're blowing things out of proportion massively by claiming him not answering one thing is "promoting apathy" when it's been basically one day and most of the players have been inactive regardless.

Actually, further than that, it's pretty silly to suggest that "promoting apathy" is a tactic used by scum, especially in this instance. He intends to make people not care...by pissing them off? This reasoning doesn't really jive at all. If you thought he was unable to explain his read because it's not real and has no reasoning, I could see someone thinking that - but this as an accusation seems pretty nonsensical to me.

There's a strong strong difference between not approving of someone's play and thinking they're scum, and you seem to not be picking up on that difference. I want RC to play ball or go home. I don't think he's scum for not doing so, and if anything it's likely to be the opposite - town's far more likely to be obstinate and difficult in most instances, scum are looking to win people's trust.

As to what I'm hoping to accomplish, well, I wanted to get a read on you and make conversation, try to establish a baseline of understanding. Haven't succeeded at doing the latter, but I'm not that worried, I have time. If you think I'm actually stifling any pressure to get a response from RC, that's dum. Not like he's going to look at my posts and go "ah now i no longer have to defend myself thanks catboi". I'm just trying to hash things out and explain my view (which I'm pretty sure I was asked about, but again it's late)

[catboi]

Actually, further than that, it's pretty silly to suggest that "promoting apathy" is a tactic used by scum, especially in this instance. He intends to make people not care...by pissing them off? This reasoning doesn't really jive at all.

If you thought he was unable to explain his read because it's not real and has no reasoning, I could see someone thinking that - but this as an accusation seems pretty nonsensical to me.

He is making people not care by setting a standard that ignoring questions is fine. If he's town, scum can follow his lead and act the same way to make it more difficult to catch them later on. That is anti-town behavior. And while I agree anti-town is not equal to scum, it is still the scummIEST thing to me so far. As for the bolded, how am I supposed to know if he actually has a reason? How would you know if he refuses to give it? You're giving him the benefit of the doubt for no reason.

Tell me, if he was voting for you and refused to give an explanation, would you not ask why? After he refused to give an explanation, would you not press him?

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. Point me to anyone who's been made to "not care" by what RC has been posting? I think you're not looking deep enough if you think that's really the scummiest thing to have gone on. People aren't really made to behave in an antagonistic fashion just because they're scum and I'm not sure what has you convinced of that.

The reason I'm giving him the benefit of the doub is because I'm assuming he's not terrible and doesn't vote without reason. Very likely given the timing of what he's said that he's reading things similarly, and overall frustrated tone of his recent posts has me leaning toward him being town. I'm completely willing to re-evaluate if he tries to coast through the game but right now at this moment I don't think it's a worthy read at all. That's not "no reason" at all, I'm making an evaluation based on his posts because I understand the way he's playing the game, or at least I think I do.

In all honesty I think you're scumreading his playstyle just because you don't like it and that's a very narrowminded way to play the game.

I'm not going to stop criticizing a read that's based on faulty premises. Considering you're the one who asked me why I think he's the wrong vote in 165, you shouldn't complain about me when I actually do what you ask and explain my read.

Ok that convinced me. Even if he isn't scum, his attitude isn't helping anyone here. I'll vote for him until he shows up and convinces me otherwise.

VOTE: RC

This right here is not a good post.

While I can't really townread anyone at the moment, I'd lean more towards Jean being town than not. He hasn't done anything that would stand out as either alignment, but since his approach has been more investigative than accusative, my gut tells me he's town. That said, I wouldn't bet my life on it or anything. I don't agree with him voting for you though.

Why is being "investigative" more likely to make someone town?

[catboi]

Catboi what things other than your Shinobi read (I've already stated why I disagree with you there) should I find scummier than RC?

Okay you're just outright not listening at this point, all I can ask is you take time to consider what I've said and why I'm reading things that way, as well as the reasoning for everything I've done, because I'm at a loss as to how to get through to you

Because of what drives both sides. Unlike townies, who are supposed to be motivated to find out who is who, scum's objective in the game is to mislead others into lynching the wrong person. In other words, they're not in it to find out anyone's alignment because they already possess that info. If the majority of posts someone has are at their core just accusations, then it's more likely for that person be scum than not. Of course everyone HAS to accuse at some point, and the frequency of accusations someone does is also very dependent on play style, so this isn't exactly a foolproof method of identifying scum. On average though, I've found it wiser to be more suspicious of those who just accuse and don't make it a priority to explain their reasoning over those who try to understand the other players and explain their thought process to everyone without being forced to. It's not that being investigative proves innocence (since a good scum should already knows this and will therefore try to be as investigative as possible); It's that accusing a lot makes people more suspicious of everyone and therefore makes it harder for the townies to band together, which at the very least is anti-town. This is largely based on my preference in play style and how I think so I'm not really asking people to base their suspicions on what is largely just my gut instinct.

Right, this is what I'd realized you'd meant shortly after you'd posted it, which is fine and makes sense. Not totally sure I see what you see in jean (I don't feel like he's said enough for me to get a decent read on him), but I get it.

[catboi]

Is anyone else not understanding what catboi's issue with me is? If someone else does could they please explain it to me?

And catboi I still want an answer: Who else is scummy other than Shinobi?

I'm trying to reach some level of understanding here, that's all. I'm clearly failing.

Right now given a 9 player setup it's reasonable to assume 2 scum players, I'm not totally comfortable advancing a secondary read beyond Shinobi at this point in time because there are a few too many inactive players. Hopefully with a little more content from those players I can make an evaluation. I have some ideas but I'm fine deciding to wait and see on them. Right now lean toward you, scorp, and rc being town. kyubey i'm more unsure on - some posts generally come across as newbtown, but the way they've advanced certain votes has struck me as odd in a way that's difficult to explain. it might be nothing, I'm not sure, don't feel it's worth pressing on at this point in time because I haven't really fully grasped why I don't like it myself.

[catboi]

VOTE: RC

RadiantCowbells is at L-1

What the

hell

is this vote?

[catboi]

RC you're really not helping things by posting this way

fact is though they're horribly wrong they're trying in earnest and I don't think they deserve this sort of treatment

[catboi]

Yeah, scorp's vote is bad and might singlehandedly torpedo my townread on him

The stupidity is unfathomable.

Once you've seen that I'm town, speedlynch Shinobi.

Like literally I've played some terrible games but this one is in a tier of it's own.

Spiffeh and Kyubey so self righteous in their idiocy that it's just sickening.

This, btw, is not how scum reacts to L-1 and only a buffoon would think otherwise.

[catboi]

RC you're really not helping things by posting this way

fact is though they're horribly wrong they're trying in earnest and I don't think they deserve this sort of treatment

Basically, though I'm not sure on the wrong/not wrong bit.
You're playing like a shitter and everyone just kind of wants you to explain things so we can move forward.

well you're really obviously scum so of course you'd express doubt on that

[catboi]

RadiantCowbells, I'm going to issue you a plea: I'm fairly convinced you're town at this point. I empathize with your frustration wholeheartedly. That said, you're being tremendously uncooperative and unhelpful. Please, either calm down and try to reason with people and actually explain yourself, or replace out and let someone who wants to play the game take your spot. You're doing yourself no favors, you're doing the rest of the game no favors, and if you're town (and I think you are) you're hurting things needlessly by acting this way, and I really don't want this to get screwed up because you got annoyed by people in the game.

[catboi]

shinobi btw never posted an actual tangible explanation for voting RC (because he doesn't have one)

[catboi]

This is untrue.
You are RC both wound up on my scumlist early for almost the exact same thing.

quote it, tough guy. Everything you've outed as reasoning is superficial nonsense that shows zero regard for legitimate assessment of a player's actions/motivation and simply appraising appearances, but you haven't even really bothered making arguments for RC-scum

[catboi]

There's absolutely zero reason to be using language like that in this game.

[catboi]

Radiant is also on my list, though he has remained unmentioned only because catboi was around and RC supposedly wasn't.
I doubt both scum would use a similar phrase and associate with each other so early so I'm most likely wrong somewhere, but I intend to find out where.

What do you think of these two players?

Uh, my vote isn't RVS at all thanks.

Are you going to explain it or are we going to have to lynch you instead?

UNVOTE:
I've completely lost interest in this conversation. When you feel like being useful, let me know.

VOTE: RC
I'm happier with my vote here atm.

Pedit: This game isn't really fun so I'm not really putting my back into solving it.

I can dig a switch back to RC.
VOTE: RC

This is an absolutely

embarrassing

"case" to be okay with lynching a player on. If someone can defend this as the thoughts of a town player, I'd love to hear it, but as far as I can tell he's just been deliberately needling RC.

The fact that Shinobi again refuses to elaborate on his scumread when pressed on it, when that is the

exact

reason he's supposedly voting RC, is a

massive

scumtell

[catboi]

Just claim scum in thread, why don't you?

Approximately zero chance you respond to me that way if you're town.

Refusing to explain yourself isn't the scumtell, it's the fact that it's hypocritical

by your own reasoning

. If you believed doing that was actually a scumtell of some measure, you surely wouldn't do the exact same thing when you were pressed. Your dismissiveness at this point only gives you way further.

I hope to god when the rest of the town starts being active they actually see this because it's blindingly clear at this point

[catboi]

Lol if that's the sum total of your case

again that's a total pathetic excuse that's an ill-justified reason to lynch someone

Really, folks, there's zero chance shinobi responds to me this way as town and I hope to god you can understand that

RC, please either play the game or replace out

Thank you and good night~

[catboi]

VOTE: RC

I'm not playing this. hammer me.

stop doing this. what the hell is wrong with you?

anyone who hammers this while i'm out i'm taking as a scumclaim.

[catboi]

oh somehow i missed that vote change. point still stands given two people could easily vote that

honestly think kyubey's irrationally misguided but probably town given the way he's posted

[catboi]

that feels like a really inappropriate replacement given the context of everything that's happened since, as well as the lack of any explicit forbiddance in the ruleset of what he did

Oh the covenant thing was just a comment about the player you replaced leaving so early. I don't have any inside jokes here since I don't know I anyone on this forum.

In my analysis I said that RC's guilt is strong evidence for Catboi's guilt, but you seem to think otherwise. He's been behaving like RC, except that he actually tries to discuss the game sometimes. He's been defending RC to an extreme that a townie shouldn't be able to do without just being very trusting of him, unlike Spiffeh who pressed RC before deciding he's town. I think it's more likely that Catboi and RC are working together than RC being guilty and Catboi just naively believing in him without question.

One day you'll realize people are capable of recognizing when someone's town and strongly defending them. Already fairly outlined why it's clear I've read him as town and to assume no town player could ever do so is obnoxious/arrogant

scorp's back to being actually town, though he should maybe quit being paranoid of me and read my actual posts

[catboi]

Why do you want to lynch kyubey, exactly?

[catboi]

This is the same condescending non-answer bs I've been hearing all game. Theres no way to just "know" that someone's town so much that'd you'd go out of your way to strongly defend them this early in the game, without doubting them first , even for a little bit. You've been basically saying "RC's good because there's literally no way he could deceive me and I know that I'm good, and anyone who doesn't see that is dumb.", or at least that's what I'm understanding as of the moment. All I want to know is the "why?" behind this reasoning, and you've given me nothing but empty responses that don't even contemplate for one second the possibility that I might not be 100% wrong. I just want to know WHY I'm wrong.

I believe I've repeatedly answered multiple times as to why I think he's town, and your summary resembles nothing of what I've said.

I'll restate it simply, in bullet point form:

- The way he played initially seemed very much in line with my own thoughts.

- The way he expressed doubt over me handing out townreads showed an active though process, he wasn't just blindly kissing up to me but actively considering what was being posted

- The way he's responded to pressure has been with a strong emotional outburst that read very much as genuine frustration to me and that sort of thing is far more likely to come from town than scum. It's not that easy to fake the sort of rage and frustration he was showing.

[catboi]

I think he is newbscum, I mean I understand why you think he is town, im just leaning the other way.

Missed this. This really doesn't help me, man. I need to see inside your head some or it's not going to help my read on either of you.

Truthfully I've been wondering if kyubey is the sort of player who thinks as scum they can ensorcel others with strings of overwrought logic so as to render themselves untouchable. Your point in 326 that you were "too lazy" to explain is actually a very good point if I'm reading into it correctly

[catboi]

Huh, Im sorry, I know what you mean, Im just really bad at explaining some specific things, and the difference between newbscum and town is one of them.

It doesnt help that english is not my native language. Fuck, wtf im doing I should stop playing mafia.

It's okay, just try your best. You shouldn't feel bad at all. You're doing all right but it helps my read of you if you can explain things as best as you can. Was honestly suspicious of you before today as a lot of your posts seemed passive but I find what you're saying now interesting and was just hoping to get a better sense of your reasoning.

[catboi]

apropos of nothing, remembered that 242 from kyubei looked fairly townish. fakeable? absolutely, but not common to give the sort of consideration he did with that post. Of course some of the reasoning earlier in the post is...not great, but for the most part it seems genuine.

[catboi]

shinobi really hasn't warranted any sort of townread whatsoever, especially given that his posting has largely devolved into sniping at others rather than any sort of semblance of legitimate scumhunting but okay (his continued dismissiveness of me makes no sense from a town perspective but plenty from scum looking to

missed this earlier:

1) He'd been nothing but unhelpful and rude well before his "emotional outburst". Everyone, even you if I remember correctly, agreed that at the very least his actions were anti-town. I know everyone likes to parrot "anti-town does not = scum", but actions that are anti-town should be seen as at least a very reasonable cause of suspicion. Your defending of him right after I started suspecting him is what triggered my alarms, but now that I think about, I can see that drawing a connection between you two was probably hasty on my part and I apologize for that.

2) When he had his "emotional outburst" none of his comments or the way he treated us were out of line with what he had said earlier. He was a douchebag all game. So when I saw his meltdown, I didn't think I should take it at face value without some evidence to back it up. Since he kept being unhelpful to me, and you quickly took his actions as proof of innocence, your defending of him was something that I took as proof of guilt.

I actually think all of this mess can be settled if we discuss and agree on the following:

Is it not wise to keep in perspective that that RC could be entirely capable of planning his outrage in advance considering the fact that there wasn't any real change in his behavior until it looked like the only way to get some heat off him? I mean he was disrespectful and claimed to not care about this game (long before his "outburst"), but then quickly tried to be helpful just before his douchey attitude was about to get him lynched.

Can you blame me for believing any of this? I don't have a problem not believing any of this, since if Im proven wrong then I would move on to be suspicious of someone like Shinobi who would look pretty bad if RC turned out to be innocent.

You're really stretching very hard to justify this and it's looking very much like you're making a case because you want him to be scum rather than because he's actually been scummy.

No I don't remotely think he planned his outburst, as it would be remarkably poor strategy as scum to draw lots of negative attention to oneself right away to begin a game, and frankly I still empathize with him because a large percentage of the playerlist has been frustratingly obtuse and difficult to deal with. I get the sense that RC is an abrasive, emotional player which makes the whole outburst seem genuine. The idea that he was trying to be "helpful" willfully glosses over the fact that he put himself at L-1. Very few players are brave enough to pull off that sort of gambit as scum and the fact is it was unlikely to work here. You have to absolutely be reaching in order to see his play as some sort of scum plan

A quick glimpse of RC's meta shows he's prone to making short posts with very little explanation as town while being abrasive when pushed on as can be seen here and here he even references selfvoting in the latter game though he doesn't actually do so) so the stuff you're attacking him on is alignment neutral at best and really picking a fight with half the players in the game on day 1 makes no sense whatsoever as scum play.

@vijay

- I don't even know how to begin to address your post but what Scorpious is referencing is an ongoing game we're both in (he's dead, I'm not) and that's primarily the source of his awkwardness in commenting on me. I'm actually fairly confident he's town from the way he's posting but that's primarily based on reading his meta. I'll try to find links of examples but fairly sure you're off base here.

[catboi]

Because I'm bored and insomniac, I decided to check on jean's completed scumgame (Newbie 1634) and his posting there is nothing like what he's doing here. Suspect he's being looked at as an easy mislynch.

[catboi]

Is RC staying? I'm ok with him staying.. Not the first time I've ever seen a self vote. Don't like it,but I don't think it's replaceable,plus he's an important cog in this game right now.. just my 2 cents

Took the time to really be critical on Cat.. Town there.. I don't think you can fake that much.

If anyone requires specifics feel free to ask,there is a lot of content there.

I'm looking into the KTK/Shinobi interactions now. I think one of our scum is in there..

I'd like to see more from Vijay though.. So far he has only mentioned me. I'd like to see his opinions on the others..

What's your read on RC's slot, currently?

This series of posts bothers me. Townread on me feels simplistic, and can't help but note it was timed after vijay attacked scorp for having an uncertain read of me and I defended him. Third post is just bland/generic.

[catboi]

This isn't really relevant to the discussion but I'm also not a native English speaker. I'm afraid of not being understood completely, which why I have a bad habit of overexplaining. It's something I'm always looking to correct so thanks for reminding me.

Would never have guessed this.


Anyway, just a random thought I had today but I don't really like the fact that vijay's lone read of significance is based largely on an associative between unflipped players. People can conjure up wild theories for anything, this doesn't strike me as particularly involved scumhunting.

[catboi]

not digging this inconsistency. just seems like it's just throwing whatever out there. putting my vote back down. This slot is causing a lot of contention. might be best to just get rid of it anyway. One because I think it's scum..2. to get us out of this limbo stage..


VOTE: RC

This is a very poor justification.

I can see him questioning his read on you given the posts in between, hardly think it's a scum tell. The idea of lynching a player simply because their slot is controversial is lazy, just an excuse for following popular sentiment.

Sad thing is I can see this being a justification from town that doesn't want to think critically but scorp has made a lot of posts that bug me

I'm not going to risk getting repunished by offering a sig bet, but I'm pretty damn sure it's Jeandarc and Scorpious at this point.

Have you looked at Jean's play as scum in his completed newbie game at all? The way he's acting now doesn't seem similar to that at all.


Still absolutely think shinobi should be the vote, getting ignored on that front is becoming frustrating, going to argue more for it tonight

[catboi]

vote Shinobi

yes...Yeeesssssss

@Catboi Why are you so intent on lynching Shinobi? I don't think he's done anything so out of the ordinary for you to be this adamant about it.

well he's done plenty to deserve it, but you and most of the game seem to have tuned things out, possibly because you're only looking at a very surface level.

(went to reread and now I

know

I'm getting ignored because I left a sentence unfinished in 347 and no one called me on it)

Read 232. Shinobi's basis for his reads have been based on extremely shallow premises, and he's been trying to lynch people for not explaining their reads, but is unwilling to explain his own reads when pressed to do so. It's a contradictory stance, and his sarcasm/dismissiveness in response from him doesn't make sense coming from town - at this point he should either be trying to reason with me, or he thinks i'm scum and trying to get him lynched (and that's clearly not the case). But snarky responses like 234 and 238 effectively just shut down communication and serve to dismiss my arguments in people's minds. If "unexplained reads" were legitimately a scumtell for him he'd do the best he could to explain his, but he's adamantly against this whenever I try to press him for reasoning. (i also get a sense he doesn't really believe this is a tell).

Regardless he's held largely static reads throughout the game, only essentially backing off on me because I proved to be too much to handle. I don't think a read of who is "useful" or not is a.) a good basis for a scumread or b.) something you can plausibly decide within 3 pages of a game. It seems contrived, like he's just looking for people to fit in a particular box that has very little to do with whether or not they're town or scum. And that's all he's really said about it, if you read him.

241 is a bland suck-up response, actually. It's the post scum make when they see town applying effort it - give a vague compliment and move on. He doesn't really say

why

he likes kyubey's post, he just says he does and then never re-visits anything about it. It's similar to his pronounced townreads spifeeh and vijay in 104 and 108 for, essentially, activity (which is not a tell by any stretch of the imagination) when vijay's lone meaningful game content to that point was post 100 - I find it incredibly hard to believe someone could get a town read off that post and "like the way [he's] are thinking about this game", because to that point, you really can't get any sense of the way vijay's reading the game. Even though I reasonably read him as town I feel like the spiffeh read bugged me too though I can't remember why. (Also criticized this in 142, btw). It reads a lot more like scum picking out players to call town that it does town looking at genuine town-tells.

Put simply I just don't buy his reads as coming from a legitimate scumhunting process. (I thought I had some better way of putting things but I lost the thought.) The most he ever gives for voting Jean is in post 157, which is incredibly weak reasoning, and he's offered essentially no analysis since then.

p-edit: psyche, I want to kiss you

[catboi]

Yeah, not getting into this again, nothing you've said is convincing and you're not my audience here.

[catboi]

Something I realized when actually reading this drivel:

It's a contradictory stance, and his sarcasm/dismissiveness in response from him doesn't make sense coming from town - at this point he should either be trying to reason with me, or he thinks i'm scum and trying to get him lynched (and that's clearly not the case).

Yeah, not getting into this again, nothing you've said is convincing and you're not my audience here.

Much logic.

Insane how I'm not reading you as town, with great posts like this

My point, though, is that you're not my target audience (I'm not going to convince you to admit you're scum), and at this point you pretty clearly have nothing of value to say, so arguing back and forth with you is pointless, as I'm pretty sure most players in the game won't even read it. (I wonder how many will reach the end of this one sentence)

I think he's town right now. I'm highly unlikely to vote Shino again today, particularly with my major scumreads maneuvering around the area.

I'd prefer to vote one of the two people I already listed.

Well that's unfortunate, as there's zero reason you should feel that way. I also don't think either of your reads are that great (scorp's recent posting has been weak but his earlier effort still looked legitimate, he's an ambivalent read at worst for me). If I had to compromise vote anyone, it'd probably be vijay or LexTrew.

[catboi]

Lets see how Shinobi handles significant pressure.
VOTE: Shinobi

jesus christ

yeah okay i'm done reading you as town

UNVOTE:

[catboi]

Dude, you've been railroading Shinobi really freaking hard all game long. Why did you switch to Scorpious all of a sudden when he backed what you've been asking for all game? Just trying to understand your reasoning here.

Because the way he did it was baffling and unsettling? Does a L-1 vote to see how someone "handles significant pressure" at this stage of the day make sense to you? Does announcing that sort of reasoning even make any sense to do, at all?

And, for the record, I didn't switch - I just unvoted because I was unsettled, it was L-1, and I was headed out for an hour. Certainly doesn't affect my read on Shinobi, but I'm going to do a re-read of scorpious at this point because he's thrown me for a loop. I was uneven on his posting and that vote raised a red flag for me.

Dude,all you do is thrash everything that everyone posts,and then you just go with it. And just post walls of crap that everyone gets tired of reading.. You make points in 500 words that can be made in 50.. I really don't care what you think. I'm town.. And I'm trying to find scum. Dont like my style.. Tough..

is that invite supposed to be threatening?

I'm going to be critical of posts/reasoning I don't like. That's just part of the game. I also hate wallposting, suggesting I'm doing that is a big exaggeration - I only really expanded on my scumread oh shinobi because i was asked to/people wouldn't listen to it. This also really has very little to do with the game itself. Why did you want to "pressure" shinobi? Why was that the only reason you gave? Is your read on him the same as it was before?

[catboi]

And I've been looking his way all game,sorry,phone is being way stupid..

I know that, but I need some sort of explanation - Your explanation is that he was "antsy" and his answers "seem a little twitchy and forced". These are both very vague. What, in particular gives you these feelings? You also say that you want to ISO him in greater detail, but so far as I can tell you haven't actually done that. So what gives?

[catboi]

I was hoping scorp would post again before I went to sleep but he didn't so I'll just dish:

not going to lie and say my reread of him went great, he was less good than I remembered and slightly more fillery than I thought. On the whole still seems earnest though. I think ultimately he's for real but may not always communicate things in the best way which leads to suspicion.

Mostly though I think this because I don't think he can fake a post like 405 as scum, the attitude is too genuine, the frustration too real. And I thought this from the moment he posted it, but I felt like prodding him a little to see if he could say a little more. Didn't quite get what I wanted, but I'm absolutely not going to support any wagon on him today. Any feelings of unease I had are gone. Knee-jerk reaction, sure, whatever, don't care, a towntell is a towntell.

So I'm back to the glorious cause.

VOTE: Shinobi

That's L-1.

[catboi]

Shinobi.

Reading the last few enhances Scorpius-catboi.

Nothing more to add, we either lynch Shinobi, see that I'm right then get the scum or get Scorpius, see that I'm right, then get the cat

You're blatantly not trying at this point. You're worth nothing right now. Your case is bad, and you should feel bad.

Of Scorpius and Jeandarc, my two scumreads, I consider Jeandarc basically confirmed scum whereas Scorpius is just a lean.

I absolutely loathe this Scorpius wagon and the role I played in getting it to happen.

And you, I'm quickly starting to get sick of in spite of the fact I'm pretty confident you're town. Scorp's town. I'm really confident of that and have explained why. You know why no one listens to you? Because you seem to think you're above engaging in dialogue, which makes your reads about as useful as a random number generator. If you're going to flip flop about without rhyme or reason and ignore what everyone else says then what the hell are you even contributing? Really if you're going to disagree with me, at least explain it or we're going to go nowhere fast.

[catboi]

You overrate yourself, and should also stop being a pain in the butt

[catboi]

I mean, look. I get being confident. That's fine and a good thing, mostly.

If you're not going to open up and explain yourself a bit, and you're going to just totally ignore what others have to say, we're going to get nowhere, fast

[catboi]

yo vijay are you scum?

Is that all you have to offer?

And I guarantee you, that if the fact that you've gone through my games and seen my success rate hasn't already convinced you then the Shinobi town flip, with or without my death tonight, will not convince you either.

I went and looked at one, you played similarly and mislynched town repeatedly. If I actually cared I'd put together data to show why your confidence is irrationally misplaced but I think that would be a colossal waste of time. I'm well familiar with your type. I mean at this point you're just a colossal bore and I have no idea why you're still playing if you have no intention of trying to communicate in a game based around communication.

[catboi]

Oh, and I've listened to what you had to say. You called for a reread on Scorpius, which I did, causing me to revise my opinion on him from town to scum.

If by "listen to you" you mean "blindly sheep you when I totally disagree with the lynch you're pushing" then we've got an issue here.

And by "listen", I meant actually interact and respond with what other people say. I got sick of the "I'm right so sheep me" routine on epicmafia. It manages to be even more tedious and less useful when you're doing it here.


p-edit: you're at L-1 because you're obvious scum in spite of your pathetic arrogance about it

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

There's about one player that's plausible for, but whatever

[catboi]

VOTE: JeanDarc

moving on. I had stuff typed up here but it was bordering on mean, so I deleted it. LexTrew is also a plausible lynch.

[catboi]

I should feel bad but I don't at all

Funny how that works

[catboi]

If you take being voted in a game of mafia personally, then yes. There's more I'd like to say but it's late and I want to think my words through

[catboi]

Ok really does no one really find Catboi's behavior leaning on scum? He's either an arrogant town that can't possibly conceive he could be wrong about his reads or a scum playing all of us. Is there really enough proof to justify lynching Shinobi? Cause all I see are justifications that only indicate we can't be sure of Shonobi's alignment (which I agree with). If Catboi's true motive were to find the truth, then you'd think he would be at least willing to give himself some room for error. At the very least I see this as anti-town behavior, since if he keeps tunneling in on whoever he thinks is scum with only circumstantial evidence, we run the very real risk of him leading everyone to make a wrong choice, even if he didn't actually intend for it to happen.

Everyone's wrong sometimes. I'm not sure what the hell you mean by "give himself some room for error". Are you saying I should have admitted it was possible shinobi was town when I was tunneling him? I'd only do that as scum to leave myself a way out after a mislynch. I stand by a lot of what I said. I think his responses have been hypocritical in a lot of ways, and his reasoning shallow.

If Shinobi wants to take being pushed on personally and act like a jerk about it, that's his problem.

You're like one of 3 people I still have under consideration as scum, so, meh.

[catboi]

@scorp you should get off shinobi. vote someone else.

I'm saying that you're acting like it's guaranteed that Shinobi is scum which, while certainly plausible, is not as black & white as you're making it out be. You do realize that you're trying to lynch him on day 1 without anything to go in except assumptions, right? If he turns out to be town, then not only would we be at a disadvantage, but your credibility will plummet for the rest of the game. We're you really willing to risk that if he got lynched a while ago, or where you not aware of that detail?

............you never have anything but assumptions in this game. I'm not sure what your point is. I was confident he was scum, yes. I was wrong. Nothing for me to do but move on. In my mind, caring about how you're perceived for your vote is for scum.

[catboi]

What's going on with this Psyche character? What do we know about him?

He replaced Spiffeh, who I thought was fairly town. That's more or less why I don't suspect him.

You should unvote shinobi, as he is town, and vote someone else.

[catboi]

Yeah nope, you still suck

[catboi]

Would bet money you're 0/2. But you're clearly not even trying, so what's the point?

[catboi]

There's zero use in no lynching on day 1. Stop that. I'd rather you vote me than vote for a no lynch, which is the worst possible thing that can happen.

[catboi]

It's also 100% obvious who will die if we no lynch. How do you not realize that?

vijay in all honesty you're of absolutely no worth to this game and I'm not sure why you bother to play a game you clearly have no interest in trying at. Do you derive enjoyment from this? From halfheartedly skimming a thread and picking names randomly? Are you that much of a simpleton?

[catboi]

There are a lot of frustrating people in this game. I've tried to keep it within the confines of the game and not be too mean. if vijay's town though (and unfortunately i think there's a decent chance he is) he's playing at a completely unacceptable level of effort and it's making the game a drag. Not about the fact that he FOSes me (who gives a damn) but more the fact that he's blatantly not interested in reading the game, making actual arguments, or responding to others. It's incredibly frustrating and it's baffling to me why he continues to play a game he clearly has no interest in to the detriment of others.

[catboi]

It would actually be anti-town of me to explain that if you don't know. Sorry. Legitimately.

Regardless, this is a simple fact: the only way to catch scum is by lynching. By no-lynching, you throw that away. In a 9 player game a 7:2 ratio of town:scum is standard. That gives the town two mislynches. A no lynch wastes one of those mislynches to no benefit. It just gives scum a free kill and makes the game harder for town, and then at some point you probably have to no lynch again which is another free kill for scum.

If you're town, you need to unvote and vote someone else. Even if it's me.

[catboi]

I absolutely wouldn't protect him as a scumbuddy, and only a dribbling moron would think otherwise. I'm very confident he's town for reasons I've explained that you're too lazy/selfish to care about. RC and psyche are also very likely town in my estimation, as I've said. At that point process of elimination leaves me to go after low content posters, Jean and Lex both fit that bill. Had thought maybe jean wasn't playing like he did as scum in his first game, but on an individual basis he hasn't said anything this game that comes across as town.

[catboi]

Bullshit. Your vote post quoted in my previous post says you had something mean all written up, and now you just say it's a pressure vote on low-content posters?
Even worse, you thought at some point that Jean was not playing like Jean-scum but when given the option you chose to vote Jean over Lex?

Lol kay mate. Nothing to do with the wagon already on Jean I'm sure.

The mean words I had were in reference to shinobi. They had nothing to do with the vote. And no, it's not a "pressure vote" it's a legitimate vote due to process of elimination. Have

just said

that I'm forced to reconsider my read on jean due to my shinobi read being wrong and the fact that his posts this game aren't that great. My read on him earlier was weak, at best. You're not reading my posts but that's nothing new. Absolutely pathetic.

Yeah, it completely has to do with the wagon already being on Jean. I think both are plausible as scum AND WE'RE ONE DAY FROM DEADLINE. OF COURSE I'M GOING TO JOIN THE LARGER WAGON YOU TWIT.

[catboi]

I tried to find an article for you on the wiki that explains why it's almost always better to lynch but I can't find one but you'll have to trust me that it's 100% correct theory to do so, I'll try to explain it if you really want me to do so

psyche/scorp need to do something with their votes, this close to the deadline there's really no reason to be wasting them

[catboi]

Scorpious and Catboi are currently the people I'm leaning on as scum at the moment, but I don't think we should lynch anyone right now. In my opinion, this game won't go anywhere unless we see what the mafia players decide to do at night, because if we keep going at this rate, all we're doing is pointing fingers and risk lynching a townie.

I agree, Catboi. Jean looks the most suspicious right now by process of elimination. Him and Lex have the least activity of all players and, with all the fighting among the active players, his posts look like what scum would do to keep us in the dark while keeping attention off him. I'm actually ok with the risk of lynching him so...

VOTE: Jean

The combination of these quotes is worrisome.

[catboi]

You went from being suspicious of me to agreeing with me on a lynch, Kyubey. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[catboi]

Okay, that's fine. I just didn't understand what your thought process was.

[catboi]

Attention: if you are reading this, and you are not voting JeanDarc, you need to hammer him. This is non-negotiable. A lynch needs to happen and given activity, this might be the only one possible. Failing to lynch anyone today is unacceptable. Thank you~

[catboi]

and I'm just,what..supposed to believe you cause you said it? lol

oh my god don't be silly

[catboi]

I'm still going to stand by Scorpious being town in spite of everything and take it on the chin if I'm wrong.

[catboi]

You're hammered already, dood

If you're town give us some last words

[catboi]

baw

[catboi]

watching the end of that was torture

Overthought things and ended up suspecting kyubey after I died, but happy I was right on with my townreads, at least