Mini 1327: Murder in the Louvre- Day 6

[Yosarian2]

lol can we even vote before game has been started? XD

I'm pretty sure we can't, heh.

That being said,

Vote: Nuwen

Oh my god, you suck.

[Yosarian2]

OMGOMG DON'T LYNCH ME ME IS INNOCENT

Wait, I'm confused here. Are you scum, or are you not not scum?

[Yosarian2]

unvote, vote: Parama

Really don't see why he's scummy but I'mma bandwagon anyways.

I have no clue why you think I'm scum and I'm not gonna put up with this crap right now. If shos lives past day 1 then I'm going to pray to god for town to lose.

*sigh*
So you're basically a douchebag, alright.

unvote, vote: shos
back to voting scum then

So, a self vote, a "I hope this town is going to lose" post, followed by unvote and going back to the wagon. Riiiiggght.

Vote: Parama

[Yosarian2]

so yos is scum guys
just sayin'

Oh, so if I don't buy your emotionally manipulative "oh, I'm going to self-vote (but take it off right afterwards, of course), woe is me, if we don't lynch the guy I want to lynch on page 4 for no reason I hope town deserves to lose this whole game" BS then I must be scum?

[Yosarian2]

Also I better not catch you skimming the thread and commenting only on posts that address you and/or call you scum.
Scum points for your last post because of that. And don't even say it's bullshit, because it's clearly not bullshit.

Um, I voted a guy for horrible, scummy play, and his response was "so Yos is scum guys" with no real defense or any useful comments.

And, what, you think I responded to him *because he called me out*? Is that really what you got out of that exchange?

[Yosarian2]

You're asking me something that I've already answered.

Um, no. I'm trying to understand how, when I called out the guy I was voting for a shitty OMGUS response, you suddenly jumped to the conclusion that I was "only responding to people who call me out" instead of, you know, following up on the guy I had just attacked. Your whole train of thought is just bizzare here, since when I attacked him, he hadn't mentioned me at all.

Of course, rather then explain yourself, you jump RIGHT to the threats:

If Parama ends up flipping town, I'll be on you like white on trailer parks.

Nice.

[Yosarian2]

Yos: Analyze why I would not defend myself at L-1 and instead respond with an accusation as scum.

Just saying but

(shrug) Explain why you would do it as town, and you might have yourself a defense there.

[Yosarian2]

Thanks for writing a paragraph about what we already knew.

Now, why haven't you answered my question yet?

Because I don't have any other strong suspects from the first 6 pages, half of which were random and most of the rest of which were pretty silly, obviously.

Now explain why you're voting me in a way that doesn't make you sound like Parama's scum buddy.

[Yosarian2]

Now explain why you're voting me in a way that doesn't make you sound like Parama's scum buddy.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, not buying this.

unvote

vote:uberninja

Not only are you refusing to explain your vote, but you're pounding on a question that you already knew I wasn't going to answer when you asked it. You already know that I'm not going to make up a bunch of BS reads based on nothing just to make you happy. In fact, you already knew that when you asked the question in the first place, since we just had this exact conversation in a different game, and I'm pretty sure that's why you asked the question was so you could use it as a BS reason to pretend to suspect me.

You may or may not be Parama's scum buddy, but you're clearly not town.

[Yosarian2]

"odd vibes" + "shit vote" =/= saying both are scum


Nuwen is making shit up. Quilford didn't reverse anything.

Those are pretty clearly both attacks. If you have a real attack, especially this early when 90% of everything is garbage, you should be willing to back it up; the way he did that and then backed off both of them was kind of weird. Nuwen has a valid point here, not really sure why you're attacking her for it.

[Yosarian2]

Uh what?

I didn't back off any of my attacks, Nuwen just made shit up in the first place.

You can't really say she "made stuff up" when she's quoting you saying thing that you said in thread, dude.

[Yosarian2]

Vi, why did you wait until 52 to vote shos? Why not vote in 48?

I think Vi is scum. She has done nothing but push easy lynches on Shos and Parama, who, despite her claims, is not obvscum.

Unvote, Vote Vi

Yos and Nuwen, what is your read on Vi?

Vi looks pretty town.

I don't actually know Parama's alignment at this point, but he certainly has done things that look scummy and anti-town, and I'd probably still be voting him myself if UN hadn't been jumping up and down and screaming "ooh, lynch me, lynch me".

[Yosarian2]

Uberninja, if you're "not nervous", then why did you make a special point of calling yourself town 3 different times on one page of the game?

furc, does cockiness mean scum?

why should I pay attention to the votes on me if I am not scared of flipping scum?

#1

I am totally self-righteous because I know what I will flip and I'm not scared to die

#2

for 100% truth, I'm town. if you're town, let's rip this game apart together

we can be like the bash brothers from mighty ducks, except not

#3

So he doesn't actually defend himself in any real way, but instead calls himself town three times between 7:55 AM and 9:12 AM in the morning today. In fact, all three of those posts seem to have no point OTHER then for UberNinja to go out of his way to claim to be town.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, lol, and he just said it again. Ok, this is #4.

Ok, you get to join me and furcolow as confirmed town

Let's do this

UN's defense plan seems to be to just call himself town over and over again and hope that the rest of us are dumb enough for that kind of repetition to convince us. Of course, this kind of puts the lie to his pretended lack of concern about this wagon; if he wasn't concerned about the wagon, then clearly he wouldn't suddenly be trying so hard to convince us that he's "confirmed town" in response to the wagon.

[Yosarian2]

Or you could, you know, actually act in a pro-town way and respond to people's legitimate concerns about your play in a rational way, instead of going through every single type of emotionally manipulative BS you can think of to get people to not lynch you. "You'll feel bad when you lynch me and I flip town" isn't going to work, and neither is the "Oh, poor me, Yos is bullying me, just look at our join dates".

Pro-tip: the "You're bullying the newbie" defense may have worked for you in the past, but it gets really old when your join is 5 months ago.

[Yosarian2]

I'm not voting

[Parama]

now because it's

not worth the effort

.

vote nuwen

because she's scum go go go

Nuwen (1): Quilford
Parama (

[what could be

2

]

): Vi,

are you seriously implying that you suck this much at mafia

if you are then that's okay, you can join a handful of other people itt

i just wanted to vote nuwen

vi comes across looking like scum trying too hard here...

quilford comes across as "hay dude it is what it is. deal."





Bad Vi. Bad. Don't make me get out the spatula.

are you seriously implying that you suck this much at mafia

i mean seriously

can you not see how many people such as quilford are, for bullshit reasons, not voting parama

ps keeping your vote on shos would be answering the first line "yes"

Yeah, I could see quilford's reaction towards on parama as odd/scummy. Most of quilford's play so far has been really odd/scummy, though

So far, quilford has:

not commented on the shoes wagon

Not commented on uberninja

equivicated in a scummy way on the parama wagon

also yeah

yos is giving me the odd vibes like i give kids candy

oh, is this not trying to set up some followup on yos?

note you also did this with vi. you basically said that half the parama wagon could be scummy but you are not opposed to his lynch.

i was getting shitty gut reactions from Parama's voters because of the way they handled the wagon, but I find their reasoning for parama being scum as valid

now fuck off.

i was getting shitty gut reactions from Parama's voters because of the way they handled the wagon, but I find their reasoning for parama being scum as valid

Can you elaborate on this? If their reasoning for Parama being scum is valid, aren't you implying that either 1. they're bussing Parama or 2. there's more than one scumgroup?

Nope!

a) Just because their reasoning for Parama being scum is valid doesn't mean he is scum. That's what mislynches are.

b) Getting shitty gut reactions does not equal thinking someone is scum. This is the same mistake that Nuwen made and the resulting argument which it spawned has completely consumed my recent posts. I'm at a loss as to how you've missed them.

He's really trying to have it both ways here, and it makes him look worse really no matter if Para is scum or is town.

Attacked both me and Nuwen, and then denied that he had ever done that

Then, right after he made a big deal of denying that he had ever attacked Nuwen, he voted Nuwen, without giving any new reasons.

And that is the complete list of EVERYTHING he's done so far this game. Literally every single move he has made this game is 100% pure scumtastic.

unvote

vote:quilford

[Yosarian2]

Yos, thoughts on Chiar?

Eh, he could go either way. I actually kind of like the timing behind some of his votes and unvotes, it feels like he's reacting to stuff actually going on in the game instead of reacting to other people's reactions to stuff going on in the game if you know what I mean. I would like him to actually explain his reads on people in more detail, though, and would feel better if he would stop acting like he was afraid to commit himself to anything.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, please post your reads on everyone in the game.

Quiford/Elmo is probably scum, you are probably scum. Parama is pretty iffy too. Nuwen, Vi, and Charter look town-ish, although it's too early to be too confident on any of them. Kanye looks pretty townish. That's the only reads I have so far, everyone else is pretty meh right now.

[Yosarian2]

Well, can you explain why you think Kanye is scum, Vi? I really don't see it at all.

[Yosarian2]

Can you explain how you think Kayne is the towniest person? Because that's a stretch to have him as town at all.

Was that directed at me? I never called him "the towniest person". He's looking pretty townish at this point, though. The way he's pushing Quilford/Elmo looks pretty sincere and pretty logical, and it looks like he's also looking for plausable scum partners and stuff.

[Yosarian2]

Can you explain how you think Kayne is the towniest person? Because that's a stretch to have him as town at all.

Was that directed at me? I never called him "the towniest person". He's looking pretty townish at this point, though. The way he's pushing Quilford/Elmo looks pretty sincere and pretty logical, and it looks like he's also looking for plausable scum partners and stuff.

It was. I deduced that you thought him the towniest person because there was no qualifier to your town read of him like others had. If he's not the towniest person in your eyes, who is then?

(shrug) I don't really have any hard town-reads I would bet the game on at this point, if that's what you're asking. I've got a handfull of soft town reads, none of which I am 100% confident on. You, Vi, and Nuwen have all played in a pro-town way, but all three of you are quite tricksy in different ways, and I wouldn't want to bet the game on your innocence this early on day 1. Kanye looks town so far, but I haven't heard all that much from him yet. Really not interested in nailing it down any harder then that at this point.

I would disagree that the way he's pushing Quilford looks sincere or logical, as to me it looks like he's said very little about Quilford and has done even less of pushing a Quilford lynch.

I've seen Kanye do the one-liner posting style before when town, often for long periods of time.

These are the reasons Kanye gave for voting Quilford.

First, he agreed with the reason Nuwen gave, putting Quilford at 3 votes.

So you wouldn't be opposed to a Parama lynch, but don't want it NOW, and also believe both Yos and I are scum for as a result of our votes on Parama?

unvote, vote Quilford

Fuck page 5. Page 6 is where the lynch is at. Cut Parama loose, I caught real scum. You see this shit all the time now; scum don't know whether to commit to a defense of a townie or take the juicy hammer thrust in front of their faces. Instead, they waffle their reads on the wagon'd player ("he's probably scum... but I want more information first") player and try to shift suspicion onto the tail-end voters.

i like it

unvote vote quillford

He then expanded on Nuwen's reasoning a little

also yeah

yos is giving me the odd vibes like i give kids candy

oh, is this not trying to set up some followup on yos?

note you also did this with vi. you basically said that half the parama wagon could be scummy but you are not opposed to his lynch.

Then he said that he thought Quilford's anger looked fake.

Later, when Quilford replaced out, he linked to a different game where Quilford replaced out on day 1 under pressure after behaving in a similar way (and was scum in that game, too.) I was in that game with Kanye and Quilford, and I was already thinking about it myself; the fact that Kanye was thinking along the same lines seemed like a good sign.

He poked at Uberninja, after some really iffy looking Quilford-defending on Uberninja's part. (UN defended Quilford early, and then after Elmo replaced in and said basically nothing, UN suddenly called him "town" and Kanye called him out on it.) He also attacked Elmo's attempt to distance from Quilford's scummy actions, and Elmo OMGUSed him for it.

Conclusion: kanye is probably town, Quilford/elmo is probably scum.

PPE: Eh, looks like Kanye already responded with most of the same points while I was typing. Probably better that he respond anyway. For that matter, charter, if you wanted to understand Kanye's vote, why did you ask me and not him?

[Yosarian2]

Yos, how is it weird that I "defended Quilford early", and then said his wagon was bad once Elmo replaced in? (it was bad before, perhaps I didn't say it). There's nothing inconsistent there, but somehow Kanye seems to think there is, and I guess you do too, since you mentioned that kanye's "calling me out on that" is a point towards him being town.

Please explain.

If Kanye is town who thinks Quilford is scum, then I would expect him to call out people who are likely scum buddies of him; not vote them until after Quilford flips, that's not smart, but calling out potential buddies of your main suspect while your main suspect is still alive makes a lot of sense as an information gathering method.

You've defended Quilford/Elmo in pretty suspicious ways several times this game. The first one was when Nuwen made a logical case and you just said she was "pulling shit out of her ass" without ever explaining why you didn't agree with it. Then you voted Kanye because Kanye voted for Quilford. Then you said:

Quilford/Elmo TeH AzN - Getting a town vibe now. I don't like the wagon at all, and if I ever did, I don't any longer.

The way you worded it it implied that you suddenly had a new town vibe, even though there was no new information, and even though you'd been defending them all game.

Anyway, all of it was pretty weird. If Quilford flips scum, you're probably his buddy. And Kanye noticing the oddness of your Quilford defense makes me feel better about Kanye.

[Yosarian2]

If Kanye is town who thinks Quilford is scum, then I would expect him to call out people who are likely scum buddies of him; not vote them until after Quilford flips, that's not smart, but calling out potential buddies of your main suspect while your main suspect is still alive makes a lot of sense as an information gathering method.

Why have I heard "looking for associative tells on Day 1 is worthless" so many times then?

You don't try to lynch someone because of who you think their buddies are when you don't even know if their buddies are scum. That's just foolish, basing assumptions on top of other assumptions.

On the other hand, if you think person A and person B might be linked, and you're trying to lynch person A, you want to get as much in the way of reactions out of person B about person A as you possibly can while person A is still alive; it's just a gold mine of information.

You've defended Quilford/Elmo in pretty suspicious ways several times this game. The first one was when Nuwen made a logical case and you just said she was "pulling shit out of her ass" without ever explaining why you didn't agree with it.

If "logical case" now means "making incorrect statements about someone and then voting them for it", then yeah, that was an extremely logical case. How is it suspicious to tell someone they're pulling shit out of their ass? She was. So I called her on it.[/quote]

If Quilford flips scum, then the way you've been defending him is quite suspicious, UN. In any case, as I already pointed out, Nuwen's statements were just factually true.

[Yosarian2]

so youre acknowledging that quilford is scum then? it wouldnt be much of a backup lynch based on him being a scumbuddy if the first one didnt flip scum after all.

How much do you want to bet that, regardless of if or how Quilford flips, Yos2 will go after UberNinja as soon as Quilford stops becoming an attractive lynch target?

Well, yes, I was pretty clear about UN being my other main suspect. I was suspicious of UN before I was suspicious of Quilford; UN is incredibly scummy independent of Quilford/Elmo's alignment.

I wouldn't care so much except the quality of Yos2's reads ITT is seemingly-intentionally poor and UberNinja is pretty likely to be Town.

...ok, that one you're going to have to explain to me. How could anyone think UN of all people is plausably town here?

I have to say I am really starting to wonder about the quality of your reads here, Vi. You still haven't explained why Kanye is likely to be scum.

[Yosarian2]

That and I've already explained the kanye part.

Um, do you mean this?

Unvote: Parama
Vote: kanyeknowsbest

(L-5)

It would be criminal not to after this page. Plus he's less entertaining than Parama.

?

Is that what you call an "explanation"?

Or are you talking about this?

Well, can you explain why you think Kanye is scum, Vi? I really don't see it at all.

The unmitigated opportunism, the utter lack of Towniness, the

being scum

, etc.

Because neither of those posts contain any actual reasons or explanations of any kind. "He's scum because he's scum" is not an answer; and I don't get "opportunism" charge at all considering how early he joined the Quil wagon.

It's weird that I feel like I have to pull teeth to get an answer out of you about this; this is the third time I've had to ask you, and still nothing. Considering how committed you were on lynching Parama earlier in the game, I'd assume you wouldn't leave the Parama wagon unless you had an even stronger suspicion on someone else, but you seem oddly reluctant to even talk about Kanye at all here, even while you're voting him.

[Yosarian2]

What does it benefit me to defend Quilford if he's my scumbuddy?

Is that actually your defense?

[Yosarian2]

Not liking my reread of Furcolow: just noticed all his votes and cases have piled up on running wagons.

#43 fourth vote on the shos wagon
#114 is a parrot of my #80 (and second vote on UN)
#197 is the third vote again on the shos wagon
#312 is the fourth vote on the Quilford/Elmo wagon

Any thoughts on this?

Eh. That's only really scummy if all three of those guys are town, and that doesn't seem all that likely.

It is worth noting the big bandwagons Furcolow has avoided; he avoided the parama wagon, and he has so far ignored the Chiarosicada wagon. I'm going to have to remember to look at Furcolow's alignment again once I know some of those other alignments.

[Yosarian2]

What does it benefit me to defend Quilford if he's my scumbuddy?

Is that actually your defense?

Yes, it fucking is.

Why the hell do you keep asking rhetorical questions to try to make me look bad?

"do you really think _________?"
"is that actually your defense?"
"are you actually saying that [insert something I JUST FUCKING SAID]?"

I'm pretty sick and tired of your

[omelette au fromage]

passive aggressive fluff, Yosarian.

|Edited] - spring

Lol.

If all I have to do is quote part of your post and ask a simple question to "make you look bad", UN, that probably means it's actually your posts that are making you look scummy, and that all I'm doing is pointing it out.

[Yosarian2]

What does it benefit me to defend Quilford if he's my scumbuddy?

Is that actually your defense?

Yes, it fucking is.

Why the hell do you keep asking rhetorical questions to try to make me look bad?

"do you really think _________?"
"is that actually your defense?"
"are you actually saying that [insert something I JUST FUCKING SAID]?"

I'm pretty sick and tired of your

[omelette au fromage]

passive aggressive fluff, Yosarian.

|Edited] - spring

Lol.

If all I have to do is quote part of your post and ask a simple question to "make you look bad", UN, that probably means it's actually your posts that are making you look scummy, and that all I'm doing is pointing it out.

Yeah, instead of trying to come up with a response that is trying to divine the truth, you're sitting there trying to think of semi-witty stuff to say so people will think "oh yeah, me too!" and you can smugly sit back as you've thrown a gallon of oil on the fire and done literally nothing to help anything.

Eh, there wasn't any point in launching into a big stupid WIFOM debate about it now. I just wanted to highlight the absurdity of your defense there to make sure you get nailed to a wall about it after Quilford flips scum, no matter if I'm alive or not at that point.

It is pretty funny, though, that all I have to do is quote your defense there and everyone, even you, instantly realized how bad you sound there.

Here, let me do it again:

What does it benefit me to defend Quilford if he's my scumbuddy?

Lol.

[Yosarian2]

In fact, I should do this as a top 10 list.

Top Ten Things UberNinja have said that are so obviously scummy they i don't even need to explain why they are Suspicious:

1.

Guess who I picked out as the scumbag.

MOAR PARAMA VOTES

Less then 24 hour later, he flips to defending Parama to the point of saying stuff like:

If Parama ends up flipping town, I'll be on you like white on trailer parks.

2.

I am totally self-righteous because I know what I will flip and I'm not scared to die

3.

oh dear, if Vi and Yos are scum together.... oh d-d-d-dear dear

*Piglet's voice*

4.

analyze this, people. does this sound like scum to you?

I got a scumread on him, but I don't see that wagon going anywhere today
If it does pick up steam, I would jump on, because it has my support

I feel like he is flailing the same way shos did earlier in the game. Shos jumping onto your wagon, and then back off when it didn't build steam, has me questioning my read on you tbh.

for 100% truth, I'm town. if you're town, let's rip this game apart together

we can be like the bash brothers from mighty ducks, except not

5.

Zar, are you scum?

Nope.

(Ninja: just go read your ROLE PM closely, you'll notice my name is not listed among your night time buddies. xD)

tell me then
at exactly which post did RVS end?

Okay Parama, please tell me you're not implying that RVS is a well-defined and separate game stage?

Ok, you get to join me and furcolow as confirmed town

Let's do this

6.

Vi, the reason I'm not voting Parama is because Yos is doing the whole

"More people will side with me anyway, so I'll grasp at straws and/or bully this townie into looking scummy and then when all's said and done nobody will suspect me because my target clearly deserved it because look at our join dates lol"

dance.

7.

shos's interaction to his wagon is scummy
why wouldn't he have addressed this in #224, nothing has changed since then
he's scum skimming, and milking the votecount

What was scummy there? Iirc I just asked wtf.
Uber and parama have already supplied their reasons for votirng me-parama thinks the whole saga was already out of RVS and uber either misread or misrepped me. But you and diddin im still waiting to hear from. Diddin just seems to be lurking behind his rvs vote and you-well answer the question above


Shitty Iphone posticng

Anybody else think he was [trying to garner sympathy, making excuses, etc] by insinuating he's on a mobile phone?

Anybody else think the "posticng" at the end seems just a little ... oh... FAKE? This is why I'm voting shos. This right here.

(I know i wasn't going to explain, but...voting someone on suspicion of fake posting from an iphone? Really?)

8.

If Quilford flips scum, kanye is his buddy.

9.

I'll be honest: before I made this post, I was like 100% convinced Zar was scum. As I went through the ISO and commented on everything though, I began to see that a lot of what he was saying could possibly come from a town mindset too... Even so, it's striking me as odd, and if I was a cop, he's who I'd inspect tonight -- no doubt about it.

10.

Yosarian has begun to look better but I can't shake the suspicion. I still want him lynched today or tomorrow.

Special bonus edition (because I couldn't narrow it down to just 10):

Why the hell do you keep asking rhetorical questions to try to make me look bad?

Oh and one more thing... just for Yos.

I'm town, I'm town, I'm town, I'm town, I'm town^∞...

[Yosarian2]

Nice to see kayne has just been tunneling my slot the whole game and really no one has said much of anything about it...

No one's said anything about it? It was a pretty major point of discussion not long ago, ETA.

kanye has done nothing except attack Quilford. Okay, whatever. kanye has done nothing except attack Quilford

while the coast was clear

. Nothing else for anyone, and not even posting while other lynchees are being talked about.

[Yosarian2]

Vi, you're making me increasingly nervous here. Are you sure you're not scum this game?

[Yosarian2]

Lol.

According to the "scummy people are scum" methodology (which is widely overused, based on it's relative inaccuracy), Chiaro, Parama, and I are scum.

I really do appreciate the way you keep making the case against yourself here, UberNinja. Saves me a lot of work.

[Yosarian2]

Vi, you're making me increasingly nervous here. Are you sure you're not scum this game?

I believe that's my line.

Yeah. I was willing to put up with your weird attack on Charter earlier in the game; you might not know his playstyle well enough to know that the way he attacked you is his town play. I was willing to give you some rope with your series of increasingly bizzare and unexplained gut reads that seem to be totally the opposite of everything that makes sense to me. Randomly throwing me in your scumlist for no reason bugs me, I have to admit, but even that I can understand; I know I tend to make some people a little paranoid.

But the point where you pretended someone was at lynch -1 when he was nowhere close, probably in order to trick him into a premature claim, is really pushing you to the end of the "vi is a good player, let's let her run wild for a while and see what happens" slack I was giving you.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure everyone is reading my posts about you, even if you wish they weren't, lol.

It's especially funny that you call yourself scummy here, and yet you also implied in several that you are obvtown and anyone who suspects you is either an idiot or scum. If you know you're scummy, why do you get so bent out of shape about people suspecting you? That's kind of what "scummy" means, you know.

[Yosarian2]

Vi, you're making me increasingly nervous here. Are you sure you're not scum this game?

I believe that's my line.

Yeah. I was willing to put up with your weird attack on Charter earlier in the game; you might not know his playstyle well enough to know that the way he attacked you is his town play. I was willing to give you some rope with your series of increasingly bizzare and unexplained gut reads that seem to be totally the opposite of everything that makes sense to me. Randomly throwing me in your scumlist for no reason bugs me, I have to admit, but even that I can understand; I know I tend to make some people a little paranoid.

But the point where you pretended someone was at lynch -1 when he was nowhere close, probably in order to trick him into a premature claim, is really pushing you to the end of the "vi is a good player, let's let her run wild for a while and see what happens" slack I was giving you.

Vi did nothing of the sort. I misread the post, and I already admitted as much.

Uh. Vi cast a vote, and said that it was lynch -1. (Yeah, there was a "I haven't seen a votecount recently" disclaimer on there that made the whole thing a quasi-joke, but people tend to freak out at even a hint that they're at lynch -1). You really don't think that was a gambit on her part? Vi's too smart to joke about stuff like "lynch -1" at random.

Now it could be that Vi was town and was just trying to get a reaction from Kanye, but it bugs me nonetheless, because it's such a risky play.

[Yosarian2]

You can keep your useless "witty" comments to yourself; nobody reads them.

You could always, you know, try to understand why I suspect you, and respond to it in a rational way that might help me get a read on you. I mean, could just keep that spamming useless stuff and act like it's valid defense, but all that does is make you look scummier.

It's especally bad since the last thing I said wasn't a "witty remark" at all, it was a serious question designed to try to figure out why you keep doing what I think makes you so scummy.

[Yosarian2]

Imagine that, Chiaro's suspects are those that are voting them?

So then what does that make him?

I think it suspicious of him. I think Chiaro is scum.

Yos, Vi said something like
"Lynch - (I have no idea since we never get votecounts)"
Not Lynch - 1

Huh?

Vote: kanyeknowsbest (L-I don't even know because we don't get vote counts often enough)

...oh. That says L-I, not L-1. Damn. I saw the "don't even know" part of the post, but I really thought that the line started with L-1...

Ok, probably not a gambit then. Question withdrawn.

[Yosarian2]

youre not "randomly" in my scumlist because

lol

you want to lynch SHOS

and UBERNINJA


like, my two strongest town reads

Wait, what? What on earth makes you think I would want to lynch *shos* of all people? He's really looking town here, and I certainly haven't attacked him. You have me confused with someone else here?

plus youre trying to say I'M scummy for acting weird and useless

Eh. Your reads have been really weird. You're attacking people who look town and defending people who look like scum, you're not really explaining yourself on most of it, and I don't get what you're doing with any of it.

but parama nope nothing

and the funny thing is hes actually useless

Parama has been really useless, yeah, that's why I listed him as my #3 suspect. I really have no idea how to read him here.

L-I should not look like L-1 to you, especially when what follows it looks a whole lot like a sentence

Uh


L-1 L-I L-I L-1 L-I L-1 L1-I LI-1 L-1 L-I L-1 L-1 L-I L-I L-1 L-I II1II1I1I1I1I1I1I1I

You really don't get that those two things look a lot alike, and that we were all used to you writing "L-3" or whatever before all your votes and were expecting to see a number there? I'm guessing that everyone who looked at that post read it as "L-1", at least at first glance. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here and believing that you weren't trying to confuse anyone, but it's frankly just luck that that comment of yours didn't cause a premature claim.

[Yosarian2]

especially when what follows it looks a whole lot like a sentence

I thought you were saying something like "L-1 but I don't even know if that's right because we don't get vote counts often enough" and just left a few words out. (shrug) I'm not the only one who read it that way, either.

Anyway, silly misunderstanding, ect.

[Yosarian2]

LOL this post is so fake it's almost funny.

Pretty sure you're the one person in the game who should understand how easy it was to read Vi's post like that, UN, since you said the exact same thing.

You're so full of...Blanquette de veau...it's unreal. Obviously I'm telling the truth here; and your claim that you somehow don't believe me makes absolutly zero sense, since your response to Vi's post was;

Is kanye really at L-1?
If so, I am expressing my intent to hammer, and asking for a claim.

Really, UN, next time you get a scum role and have to invent fake reasons to suspect someone, I'd strongly recommend you not go with one that's so obviously BS.

[Yosarian2]

Me, charter, Furcolow, shos, Elmo, and Vi should form a team and vote for people all together.

"Hey, how about me and by buddy Elmo get some obvtownies to buddy with us any lynch everyone else for a scum win?"

How about, no.

unvote:elmo

Vote:unberninja

Still be happy lynching either one of them; I'd be stunned if either flips town at this point.

[Yosarian2]

Hey Yos, do you really think that The UNcola would be THAT hypocritical as scum?

Is that why you think he's town, because you don't think anyone could possibly be this scummy as scum?

At this point, I'm pretty sure UN is willing to say anything, no matter how absurd, illogical, or obviously wrong, in order to attack me. And no, I don't think that's a town tell.

[Yosarian2]

But, for the record, that wasn't the scum tell that pushed me to move by vote back to UN up to the point of being worse then Elmo; I'm used to bad tunneling from UN now, regardless of alignment. The straw that broke the camel's back here was actually the attempt on the part of UN to buddy up with literally every person I have listed as a town read, AND with my other main scum read, and try to get that group as a voting block. It looks like a (amazingly transparent) attempt on Elmo's part to just straight out engineer a scum victory.

[Yosarian2]

EBWOP: "Elmo" should have been "UN" in that last sentance, obv.

[Yosarian2]

What say we not lynch the person who's annoying and actually lynch the kanye or Parama who are scum?

I'm not lynching UN because he's annoying, I'm lynching him because he's scum. UN's only response to pressure all game has been "claim town/ buddy with people/ OMGUS/ claim town/ buddy with people/ OMGUS" over and over again, and it just looks completely scum motivated. Basically everything he's said all game makes a thousand times more sense if you picture UN-scum saying it then if you try to imagine any town player actually believing what he's saying.

I'm growing tired of defending Kanye when he's apparently gone into lurk-mode, but I still really don't think he's scum here.

[Yosarian2]

Nonononononononononononono. No.

LIES LIES LIES

Is there some reason that this guy isn't dead yet? I really want everyone who's not voting UN to justify that here. The only person who has at this point has been Vi; I haven't heard anyone else give any reason for keeping UN alive, and yet he's been remarkably hard to lynch.

[Yosarian2]

(nods) I agree with Kanye here.

If we could lynch two people today, I'd gladly kill both UN and Elmo. They seem to be in a "who can be scummier" competition at the moment.

[Yosarian2]

Uber is a subpar lynch for today and for me would boil down to 'I don't want this game ballooning to 100 pages and lynching UN is the only way to prevent that'.

That is not why we're lynching UN today.

Add to it the fact that the people voting him (Nuwen and Yos and who else? We never get votecounts) were also voting for Quilford earlier with some supposed "slam dunk" case that everyone ignored because it wasn't very good.

Uh, Quilford/Elmo is also really scummy here. kanye just explained why, again, not that it really needed to be said.

The wagon on UN is more of he's annoying than he's scum.

100% false.

Does anyone have a town read on Nuwen?

Yeah, I think Nuwen looks pretty town here.

I'm really getting tired of how everyone feels the need to defend people acting in such a over-the-top anti-town way as Elmo and UN are here All that does is encourage people to play in anti-town ways and rewards them for doing so when they are scum, and that's something scum take advantage of. If it acts like scum and talks like scum, usually you should just lynch it instead of WIFOMing yourself into defending obvscum and attacking the town that attack that person for being scum.

[Yosarian2]

Scum list:

Town:
charter
Nuwen
shos
Zar
kanyeknowsbest

Leaning town:
Vi
Furcolow

Null:
Katsuki
Chemist

Suspicious:
Parama

For the love of Christ these guys are so obviously scum why are they still alive:
Elmo TeH AzN
Uber Ninja

[Yosarian2]

So because I'm distancing myself from a shit iso. I'm scum? Hell I didn't look like quil wanted to play the game in general. His fake anger was lulzy and it seems you and Nuwen are just sitting with votes parked on me

I would be willing to reconsider my Quil read, Elmo, but the problem is your play has really been just as bad. It's been a combination of lurking and an occasional OMGUS vote for either Kanye or Nuwen, just because you didn't like that they voted you. You've hardly even commented on anything except that you don't like it when people vote you.

[Yosarian2]

I'm tired of

[Vi's]

defenses, honestly,

...I've defended myself? I know I don't remember anything for longer than 24 hours but I'm pretty sure I haven't done much of that.

I assumed he meant he's tired of your defense of people like UberNinja and Elmo.

-

I would be willing to reconsider my Quil read, Elmo, but the problem is your play has really been just as bad.

"You know, I think you're approaching a point where I would have to back off on my scum read, but I'm going to preclude that by holding this offense over your head."

Uh. Why would I back off of my scum read? What has Elmo does that seems at all townish?

Elmo was trying to defending himself by saying that people were only attacking him for Quilford's play, and I was pointing out that defense doesn't work at all because Elmo's play is just as bad. The slot is actually significantly MORE scummy now then it was before quilford replaced out, and considering how scummy Quilford was, that's really saying something.

[Yosarian2]

No. Just, no.

You don't agree with me that Elmo's done nothing pro-town since he replaced in?

Ok, UN, I'm curious. Quote me one post that Elmo has made at any point in the game that looks pro-town, and isn't just filler or him voting someone for voting him. Any post.

[Yosarian2]

No. Just, no.

You don't agree with me that Elmo's done nothing pro-town since he replaced in?

Ok, UN, I'm curious. Quote me one post that Elmo has made at any point in the game that looks pro-town, and isn't just filler or him voting someone for voting him. Any post.

There is almost literally nothing Elmo has done that is pro-town.

That doesn't mean he is scum. That means he's terrible.

Lynching terrible players instead of scum is how town loses.

If there's nothing he's done all game that's pro-town, then why are you treating him like confirmed town? Why have you been defending him so hard and trying to get him into your "alliance"?

I tend to think that "X has done nothing town all day" is pretty much the single most damning scumtell that there is; but even if you didn't think that, even if you think he's just null and unreadable, it still doesn't explain your behavior today.

[Yosarian2]

No. Just, no.

You don't agree with me that Elmo's done nothing pro-town since he replaced in?

Ok, UN, I'm curious. Quote me one post that Elmo has made at any point in the game that looks pro-town, and isn't just filler or him voting someone for voting him. Any post.

There is almost literally nothing Elmo has done that is pro-town.

That doesn't mean he is scum. That means he's terrible.

Lynching terrible players instead of scum is how town loses.

If there's nothing he's done all game that's pro-town, then why are you treating him like confirmed town? Why have you been defending him so hard and trying to get him into your "alliance"?

I tend to think that "X has done nothing town all day" is pretty much the single most damning scumtell that there is; but even if you didn't think that, even if you think he's just null and unreadable, it still doesn't explain your behavior today.

Lol so why didn't you push on diddin's slot then, you [shitty french food] hypocrite?

You're slipping dude.

Note to everyone: UnberNinja refuses to answer a simple question. I asked him why he was defending Elmo so hard, if even he doesn't think Elmo's "done anything town", and he tries to change the subject over to diddin. Also note that he tries to continue the alliance with Elmo again in his very next post.

To answer your question, diddin was a lurker, in that he didn't post much before he replaced out and i might have voted for him if I didn't have a better suspect. Of course, in this game, I had several who were much scummier. Lynching lurkers is fine, but lynching scum is clearly better. And there is a difference between "someone who doens't post much" and "someone who posts but doesn't say anything". The second (Elmo) is much scummier then the first.

[Yosarian2]

The friend of my enemy is my enemy.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Sure, if you're scum.

If you're town, though, you don't want to lynch people just because they're trying to lynch you, and you don't want to befriend people just because they're not trying to lynch you. If you're town, you're supposed to lynch scum and defend town.

You're not playing like town here, un.

[Yosarian2]

You really don't see how saying "Do what I tell you or you'll be sorry" is scummy?

I don't really see how someone saying basically "it's a week before deadline, we've got 5 active wagons with 2 votes each, that's really stupid and bad for the town, and if you don't change that you're all morons" is a scum tell at all, no.

[Yosarian2]

Screw it. I continually fail to see how Yosarian can have a town read on Nuwen. It either boils down to they are scumbuddies, or Yos is aiming for townpoints because Nuwen is town.

Or because Nuwen is acting like town, and you're being a dumbass?

Either way, I am pretty sure he can see the difference between what Nuwen said "Vote UN or you're blacklisted" and what he paraphrased.

Unvote, Vote Yosarian

If you actually think Nuwen would make that post as scum, I'd recommend you cut back on your glue sniffing hobby.

[Yosarian2]

Screw it. I continually fail to see how Yosarian can have a town read on Nuwen. It either boils down to they are scumbuddies, or Yos is aiming for townpoints because Nuwen is town.

Either way, I am pretty sure he can see the difference between what Nuwen said "Vote UN or you're blacklisted" and what he paraphrased.

Unvote, Vote Yosarian

In all fairness, people have been failing to see how I have any read on anyone all Day.
But I think it's more interesting that I could paraphrase Yos2 761 with "I don't have anything to say so I'm going to make a nice-looking throwaway post that upholds the status quo without actually saying anything".

It's dangerous to go alone! Take this.

Unvote: Nuwen
Vote: Yosarian2

(L-5)

And...you're voting me because...I'm "upholding the status quo"? I'm defending one of my town reads from a different one of my town reads. This is especally weird since the whole reason charter is attacking Nuwen is because...Nuwen is trying to get my #1 scum read lynched. And...he expects me to agree that that's scummy, even though there is absolutly no reason why Nuwen's actions make ANY sense as scum.

I mean, seriously. Person X is the #1 wagon, in a game with no other real wagons, he's spazzng out all over the place and wearing a giant nametag that says "Hi my name is SCUMMY SCUM MC SCUMMERSON" and it's pretty obvious that he's is going to get lynched. Person Y makes a huge, high-risk, high-visibility play to double down and take a huge risk in order to increase pressure on person X and consolidate the random votes all over the place. How the hell does that play make any sense if person Y is scum, at all? How could you and charter read nuwen's posts and think there's any chance she's scum here? The only way that's even *plausable* is if you think that she's scum with UN and is bussing him, but even then you still would lynch UN first.

[Yosarian2]

You have said nothing about Nuwen all game except "Nuwen looks town". The only explanation you ever gave was something like "Nuwen made a logical case" against Quilford, since then both of you have completely dropped it.

Uh...I've dropped my case against Quilford? You do realize that I've been attacking the Quilford/Elmo slot pretty much nonstop since then, right? If a slot keeps giving new reasons to find them suspicious, it doesn't mean the old reason is invalid, it actually makes it more valid.

Anyway, Nuwen is pretty clearly town at this point. None of her play makes sense from a scum point of view at all, she's pretty much just aggressively being attacking the people i would expect Nuwen-town to agressivly attack, while clearly not at all worrying about how she looks in the process; she obviously cares more about lynching scum then about how she looks this game. If she was scum going for a "easy mislynch" or whatever, she wouldn't be overselling it like this.

In any case, you haven't actually made a case against her, you've just been saying she's scum over and over again and trying to bully everyone else into going along with your complete non-case, and now you're trying to use your vote to bully me into backing down from defending her, even though she's looking more town with each post she makes at this point, and I'm really confused that you don't see that.

[Yosarian2]

Considering a "policy" lynch over lynching scum suspects is scummy.

With deadline coming up, saying "I would rather lynch X, but I would compromise on a lurker lynch rather then see a no-lynch happen" seems pretty reasonable to me.

[Yosarian2]

Charter, why are you scum this game? :<

I swear it's like people are diving out in front of each other to be not-Town. (referring to Parama)

And...you're voting me because...I'm "upholding the status quo"?

Well Shea needs the validation.

There's a giant

tigre bianca

in the room with your 778, and it's that you're doing the same thing Nuwen is - forcing UberNinja-scum down as a premise of your entire argument.

Uh, no, that's not at all correct; did you even read my post 778? My whole point was that Nuwen's play makes no sense coming from hypo-Nuwen-scum no matter if UN is town or scum. In fact, if UN is town, then it makes even less sense; I REALLY wouldn't expect scum-Nuwen to make such a big deal about forcing through a town wagon in such a loud and visible way in a situation where it already looked like it was happening anyway, and where the really weren't even any other viable wagons.

[Yosarian2]

bummer. eh parama, can you please get some content in? otherwise you're just as scummy as katsuki and exactly as fit to be the compromise lynch, lol. since there are others who actually think you're scum, I think if we'll get there, it'll probably be you...so start playing~

Is that a threat?

Town card totally revoked, nvm what I said earlier, that's scum gloating.
He can go after Pirate though.

Shos: Parama, could you please, like, post some content? Pretty please? Otherwise you're a lurker.

Parama: How dare you. I am going to lynch you dead now, even though I had a town read on you right up until the point when you questioned my lack of activity. Right after we lynch some other lurker that's not me.

++ scum points for Parama.

[Yosarian2]

Parama comes out of thi sexchange looking the worse imo.

Parama had a sex change? Ah, typos.

But, yeah; Parama really needs to start coming out with some good, non-crappy content, and he needs to do it soon.

[Yosarian2]

The scum aren't getting lynched in part because the Townies are doing their best to attract votes for themselves.

No, the scum aren't getting lynched because you and charter, both of whom are likely town here, are consistently refusing to lynch anyone who actually looks scummy because of WIFOM nonsense. There was a brief part early in the game when you were actually voting someone scummy (Parama), and Charter attacked you for it. Since then, you and charter have both been consistently attacking anyone who votes for anyone who looks scummy, and it's brought this whole game to a screeching halt.

[Yosarian2]

Alright, I was just in a game with UN and his play was totally different. I had him as scum that game, and he responded totally different to pressure. I severely doubt UN is scum. That's one of the major reasons I'm not voting him.

Ok. I ISO'd UN's play in that game, and I'm not sure I really see the differnece. Can you spell it out for me?

[Yosarian2]

Alright, I was just in a game with UN and his play was totally different. I had him as scum that game, and he responded totally different to pressure. I severely doubt UN is scum. That's one of the major reasons I'm not voting him.

Ok. I ISO'd UN's play in that game, and I'm not sure I really see the differnece. Can you spell it out for me?

I was on to him day two (day one lasted 3 pages) and his arguments were so ridiculous that I had to stop arguing with him altogether. I don't see that in this game.

Uh. have you been reading the arguments UN's made in this game?

Also, what I see in that game strongly implies that scum-UN has a strong tendency to OMGUS people who are attacking him using terrible arguments, which is pretty much what he's doing in this game.

Maybe you're just not realizing how bad his arguments have been in this game when they haven't been on you?

[Yosarian2]

Uh, no, that's not at all correct; did you even read my post 778? My whole point was that Nuwen's play makes no sense coming from hypo-Nuwen-scum no matter if UN is town or scum. In fact, if UN is town, then it makes even less sense; I REALLY wouldn't expect scum-Nuwen to make such a big deal about forcing through a town wagon in such a loud and visible way in a situation where it already looked like it was happening anyway, and where the really weren't even any other viable wagons.

But I certainly would. It fits her personality well.

Meh. I guess I know what you mean, but this is exactally what I'd expect from town-Nuwen; in my experence, Nuwen will always tend to vote for the scummy looking village idiot on day 1. Nuwen is one of the few people who has an even lower tolerance for stupidity then I do.

[Yosarian2]

Uh, no, that's not at all correct; did you even read my post 778? My whole point was that Nuwen's play makes no sense coming from hypo-Nuwen-scum no matter if UN is town or scum. In fact, if UN is town, then it makes even less sense; I REALLY wouldn't expect scum-Nuwen to make such a big deal about forcing through a town wagon in such a loud and visible way in a situation where it already looked like it was happening anyway, and where the really weren't even any other viable wagons.

But I certainly would. It fits her personality well.

Meh. I guess I know what you mean, but this is exactally what I'd expect from town-Nuwen; in my experence, Nuwen will always tend to vote for the scummy looking village idiot on day 1. Nuwen is one of the few people who has an even lower tolerance for stupidity then I do.

So you're saying it's personality at best.

Still waiting on that compelling etc.

I'm kind of confused. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with my statement that everything we've seen out of Nuwen this game is exactly what anyone who's played with her before would expect from town Nuwen? If you don't have an opinion on the subject, then I'm confused as to how you just claimed to understand Nuwen's meta well enough to predict how she would at as scum.

[Yosarian2]

I'm saying that what I've seen of Nuwen is exactly what I would expect from Nuwen.

Still waiting on that compelling etc.

So...why is she one of your main suspects if her play is "exactly what you'd expect" from her, and therefore null-ish at worst?

Anyway, if her play seems to be "exactly what you'd expect", and her play also is generally pro-town and helpful, with her main goal at the moment apparently to try to get together a good wagon that makes sense and to pressure people to make their votes count for something, then she's likely town. Of course I'm not 100% sure at this point, but the wagon on her was just terrible and based on nothing, and I hate it when there's people that are so much more scummy in the game.

[Yosarian2]

I accidentally deleted my response post and I'm already late, so the high points:

*Yos2's rationale for Nuwen-Town is entirely predicated on UberNinja-scum.

Why do you keep saying this, that's pretty clearly the opposite of what I'm arguing?

Uh, no, that's not at all correct; did you even read my post 778? My whole point was that Nuwen's play makes no sense coming from hypo-Nuwen-scum no matter if UN is town or scum. In fact, if UN is town, then it makes even less sense; I REALLY wouldn't expect scum-Nuwen to make such a big deal about forcing through a town wagon in such a loud and visible way in a situation where it already looked like it was happening anyway, and where the really weren't even any other viable wagons.

You can't keep pretending that you haven't read my posts after you've responded to them in great detail, Vi.

Based on the game state as it is now, Nuwen's posts are exactally what I would expect from Nuwen-town, and apparently they're what you would expect from Nuwen-town as well; and they do not make any sense for Nuwen-scum to make, no matter what alignment UN is. There is zero scum possible benefit at all to Nuwen's recent posts, and they are clearly beneficial to the town, and all of that is true no matter if UN is scum or town. I'm really confused about why you're acting like you don't know what my reasoning is here, considering that we've spent the last two pages arguing about it, AND that you even seemed to agree with most of it just last page.

[Yosarian2]

And so the town thing to do is totally to get me lynched before I can finish giving my reads, right?

Textbook scum stalling tactic #3.

I am gonna lol if town loses this game.

Textbook scum appeal to emotion technique #1.

This is an exact repeat of Mini 1296. People throwing their weight around, being self-righteous, and in general paying no attention to who scum was.

A quote from the mod of that game, in the dead thread: "UberNinja is impressing me with his reads but nobody is listening to him."

Textbook scum appeal to emotion technique #2.

[Yosarian2]

Then I will expect you to shut up and let the smart people talk when I flip town.

Like I said before:

UN's only response to pressure all game has been "claim town/ buddy with people/ OMGUS/ claim town/ buddy with people/ OMGUS" over and over again, and it just looks completely scum motivated.

Although, to be more precise, UN's response to pressure all game has been "Appeal to emotions/ Claim town/ buddy with people/ OMGUS". I almost forgot that first step.

[Yosarian2]

Pro-tip: Maybe it's time to get a new fucking textbook. (One that hmmm idk... works?)

Are you

really

saying that you can't tell I'm town?

If so, you're terrible.

Lol. thanks for proving my point by appealing to emotion, claiming town, and then buddying with Furcolow, UN.

Although, to be more precise, UN's response to pressure all game has been "Appeal to emotions/ Claim town/ buddy with people/ OMGUS". I almost forgot that first step.

Is there ANY reason that this clown is still alive at this point?

[Yosarian2]

[UberNinja]

's just picking whatever alternate wagon crosses his fancy and trying to create distance between himself and the people who defended him.

This is the first time I've heard this accusation or seen it played out, AFAIK. By which I mean "bullshit".

--

while your reads may be correct, the way you present and reason them is crap, so you aren't quite convincing. that, coming in a ddition to the already-bad impression I've had on you, is probably the reason for your lynch. I hope you're just trying to AtE here tho.

I am sure you're scum. I was saying that if in fact you are a townie, then you're doing a pretty bad job at it.

Wait, wait, I'm still hung up on how you're saying that UberNinja's reads might be correct, but "unconvincing"; yet you're still "sure" UN's scum. How likely is it that UN is going to flip scum?

--

Based on the game state as it is now, Nuwen's posts are exactally what I would expect from Nuwen-town, and apparently they're what you would expect from Nuwen-town as well; and they do not make any sense for Nuwen-scum to make, no matter what alignment UN is.

There is zero scum possible benefit at all to Nuwen's recent posts

, and they are clearly beneficial to the town, and all of that is true no matter if UN is scum or town.

...I'm sorry.

IF YOU ARE TOWN YOU ARE A FKF;GVSDRJAWERAJKL;D MORON

OF COURSE THERE'S A SCUM BENEFIT TO NUWEN'S POSTS

IF THEY INVOLVE PUSHING A WAGON ONTO A MISLYNCH

AND IF PUSHING THAT WAGON AND TRYING TO RALLY THE TOWN AROUND IT MAKES HER LOOK TOWN

THEN YES THERE IS A SCUM BENEFIT

Uh, no. No matter what UN's alignment is, there there is zero benifit for hypo-Nuwen-scum making a play that will:

1. Draw more attention to her

2. Make her look worse if UN flips town

and

3. Lynch someone would would be lynched anyway if she sat back and did nothing.

Try again, Vi.

[Yosarian2]

I want to unvote Yos2 for Zar but at the same time I don't want to unvote Yos2.

Also; Zar? Really?

Why is it that ALL of your scum reads this game make zero sense to me, Vi?

[Yosarian2]

Although, to be more precise, UN's response to pressure all game has been "Appeal to emotions/ Claim town/ buddy with people/ OMGUS". I almost forgot that first step.

Is there ANY reason that this clown is still alive at this point?

--

@Yos2 930:
1) Lurking.
2) I'm pretty sure that wouldn't happen actually. People already seem to have their mind made up about UNI's alignment and if they turn out wrong they'll *shrug* and move on.
3) That's fairly optimistic.

1. Uh, she could have made a post without attracting that kind of attention to herself.

2. That's probably true for most of the people voting for UN, but it's probably not true after Nuwen made that post. I think that if UN does (somehow) flip town, people are going to be all over her for that. It doesn't look like she cares.

3. Eh. At the time, there were no other wagons that had any real support, the rest of the town votes were split up all over the place. There's no way she could have been counterwagoning for anyone else specific. Now, if UN was town, a scum might give that wagon a *gentle* push, but only if they could do it in a subtle way, while allowing someone else to take "credit" for the wagon. I mean, all she would have had to do was a gentle "I agree with Yosarian2, vote uberninja", not a massive "everyone not voting for uberninja are morons, vote now or I'm blacklisting you forever" spazz out.

Her. Play. Makes. No. Sense. As. Scum. I don't know why you're having such a hard time understanding my point here, Vi; it's not that complicated.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, do you think Vi is scum, or just really off its rocker?

Hell if I know. I don't get why Vi-scum would act like this, but I don't get why Vi-town would act like this either.

I'm hoping she's going to explain herself in such a way as to give me some kind of idea.

I will say that I don't want to lynch Vi today. Between the fearless/crazy way she's been defending UberNinja, and the horrible and opportunistic Vi vote Uberninja just made on Vi, I really don't think Vi and UberNinja are scum together; assuming UberNinja flips scum, Vi is probably town

[Yosarian2]

Yos, if we lynch UN and he flips town, what then?

I would certainly have to re-read the whole game in that case. I will say that Elmo is scummy no matter if UN is town or scum.

[Yosarian2]

It's even more telling that UN is using Vi's suspicion of Zar to justify his own, even while he's voting for Vi. At least, I assume Vi is the person he's talking about when he vaguely says:

Because you are inventing reasons to suspect me. Just saiyan.

No, I'm really not.

You know how I know? Because I'm not the only one that noticed it.

But that makes no sense; if UN actually thinks Vi is scum, then why would he trust Vi's read on Zar? And I think even UN knows that he is on really shaky ground here, and that's why he's being so vague.

It really feels like UN is just opportunistically supporting any wagon he can that might save his own skin, even when they logically contradict each other; Vi gets a few votes, UN drops his town read on Vi and votes for her; Vi attacks Zar, and suddenly UN opportunistically adds Zar to his suspect list while keeping a vote on Vi.

[Yosarian2]

It's even more telling that UN is using Vi's suspicion of Zar to justify his own, even while he's voting for Vi. At least, I assume Vi is the person he's talking about when he vaguely says:

Because you are inventing reasons to suspect me. Just saiyan.

No, I'm really not.

You know how I know? Because I'm not the only one that noticed it.

But that makes no sense; if UN actually thinks Vi is scum, then why would he trust Vi's read on Zar? And I think even UN knows that he is on really shaky ground here, and that's why he's being so vague.

It really feels like UN is just opportunistically supporting any wagon he can that might save his own skin, even when they logically contradict each other; Vi gets a few votes, UN drops his town read on Vi and votes for her; Vi attacks Zar, and suddenly UN opportunistically adds Zar to his suspect list while keeping a vote on Vi.

You're so full of omelettes that I want to cook you up and eat you.

So...yes you meant Vi? No, you didn't mean Vi? Any explanation? Any justification? Can you give me *anything* that might give some kind of pro-town motivation for your play here?

[Yosarian2]

Deadline extention

Still don't think Zar is scum; the case against him is pretty thin, and the people on his wagon look like scum.

[Yosarian2]

why the fuck would they kill elmo.

They didn't. I vigged him.

Which means that the actual scum kill was prevented somehow. If there's a town roleblocker out there, it's very likely that whoever you blocked last night is the scum.

[Yosarian2]

why did you vig him?

Because I thought he was scum all day yesterday, and then he quickhammered Uberninja in response to UN claiming town info role, without bothering to even ask him for details or get other reactions first. Don't get me wrong, I was a big supporter of the UN lynch, but quickhammering someone IN RESPONSE TO a town info role claim without even getting reactions or demanding a full claim or whatever looked pretty bad.

Yos, are you scum trying to out our PRs?

The only kind of power role I would like to see claim today is a roleblocker who believes he or she prevented the kill by blocking the scum last night. In that case, it would absolutely be worth it to out a roleblocker in order to lynch a scum today.

No other town power role should claim; I don't want to hear claims from any doctors, or bulletproof, or whatever. Only claim if it nails us a scum today. Even then, you don't have to claim right now, but before the end of the day would probably be good.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, if you are in fact a vig, why did you claim right out of the gate?

I don't claim lightly, but in this case, it seemed worth it to share the information I had.

[Yosarian2]

are you doctor fishing?

vote: yos

You know, I specifically stated that I did NOT want any doctors to claim.

No other town power role should claim; I don't want to hear claims from any doctors, or bulletproof, or whatever.

Also, why the hell are you voting me here? It should be pretty obvious that I'm telling the truth, unless you really think that the scum killed elmo?

[Yosarian2]

The other way around, you etc.

Ah. I'm being stupid.

Because I don't really think he's scum?

Given the above, what's the alternative explanation?

It sounds like there were two different, unrelated things yesterday. Hiraki got a vision from his own role ability,k and he got a message from Shos. I think at first he was confused about the two, but it sounds like two seperate things.

What we can get from this whole mess:

Shos message-sending ability is confirmed. His alignment is not; that would be kind of a weird message for scum-Shoes to send (H-are you confirming the exact wording of Shos message?) but he could just have sent it to look town.

H's claimed vision doesn't really sound faked. He just discribed the french flag apparenlty without knowing what a "tricolor" flag was. Vi; I guess the scum have some kind of french theme, or something?

[Yosarian2]

at the very least i would like to hear yos' flavor name.

Eh, I don't really see any harm claiming it. I am Françoise Dupont. Some kind of French police inspector.

[Yosarian2]

Nuwen is Yos your partner?
Thanks for letting me know who to lynch after I flip Yos

Answer the question, please.

Also, why the hell are you voting me here? It should be pretty obvious that I'm telling the truth, unless you really think that the scum killed elmo?

Explain to me how you could possibly think that "Yos is scum" is a plausible explanation here.

[Yosarian2]

@Yos 1187: You realize that that tells me nothing that I don't know.

If Hiraki described a tricolor flag without knowing what it was AND specifically mentioned that white is not a color, that sounds like either he knows more than he's letting on (i.e. he was serious about that offhand comment) OR that he wasn't mentioning the French flag.

Moreover, if he picked up the medallion at the scene of the Elmo's murder, that means that his comments are in reference to you. Thanks for claiming before I realized that, btw.~~

Asking whether the scum have a French theme is kind of silly. This

whole game

has a French theme. Now, given that Hiraki was describing you, and that you yourself have a French theme, and you were making the Elmo kill out to be made by scum by asking that question, what were you getting at?

Ahh. He found the medalian at the scene of Elmo's murder? Ok, I totally missed that part of his claim.

I am pretty out of it right now. Something pretty upsetting just happened this weekend, and I'm not really able to focus on this game properly right now.

[Yosarian2]

as a start, why didn't you say it earlier, about the fact that 'le tricolor' is the name of the flag? I had no idea about it.

Oh; sorry if I didn't make that clear, I figured that was the kind of thing most people knew, but that was what I was trying to say. The french flag is the tricolor, and the fact that Hiraki described it and said the mod called it "tricolor" without him even knowing what that means makes me pretty confident he's telling the truth.

[Yosarian2]

Nuwen:
*Slammed through the UberNinja case Yesterday as a policy lynch when it was for the most part pretty bloody obvious that UN was Town

lol. Only obvious to you, Vi.

I don't know why scum would throw a lone vote at a one-shot Vig claim, especially without public support.

I actually haven't specifically claimed if I'm a a one-shot vig, a full vig, a multi-shot vig, a odd night vig, a JOAT, a cannibalistic ardvark, or any other role combination. All I said was that I made the kill last night. Are you fishing?

[Yosarian2]

I don't know why scum would throw a lone vote at a one-shot Vig claim, especially without public support.

I actually haven't specifically claimed if I'm a a one-shot vig, a full vig, a multi-shot vig, a odd night vig, a JOAT, a cannibalistic ardvark, or any other role combination. All I said was that I made the kill last night. Are you fishing?

I'm really not sure how you got the notion that I was

fishing

instead of

assuming

. Do explain.

Because if you were town who had thought you had logically figured out parts my my role I haven't claimed yet, and if you think I am town, then it would be obviously bad for you to tell the scum about what you think my role is for no reason?

[Yosarian2]

Not a fan of this Nuwen wagon. Nuwen is defending Hiraki for reasons that seem entierly logical, are pretty strong, and are probably right. So, because she's defending someone who's probably town from getting lynched...that makes her scum?

[Yosarian2]

going to be v/la for a 3 day weekend (friday, saturday, and sunday)

[Yosarian2]

Ok, back from my V/LA. Don't really have time or energy to catch up now

[Yosarian2]

I'm not shamelessly buddying Yos - there's a dude voting for him AFTER THE COMPLEMENTING CLAIMS, which I also find either incredibly misguided or scummy. Running defense for Furclow wins you no points with me.

The level of derptastic in the last two pages is giving me a brain aneurysm.

Is Yos okay? Caught up and saw the post re: a bad situation IRL. Don't abandon me to the insanity wolves. Hope things are better now.

Shameless buddying is both shameless and buddying.

No, that was not buddying, that was her actually being worried about me irl.

[Yosarian2]

Not a fan of this Nuwen wagon. Nuwen is defending Hiraki for reasons that seem entierly logical, are pretty strong, and are probably right. So, because she's defending someone who's probably town from getting lynched...that makes her scum?

When did anyone care about her defending Hiraki?

Uh

And you don't think Nuwen is Hiraki's buddy? I think it's pretty obvious she is.

[Yosarian2]

People keep voting Hiraki, but I have yet to hear someone explain how his claim could plausably have come from scum.

[Yosarian2]

Ahhhhh finally. Took me years to post this in my gfs iphone. Anyway-There ya go yos.

That still doesn't explain how he managed to perfectly describe the Tricolor flag, and give it it's proper name, while apparently not knowing what the tricolor flag looks like (or that in this context white is a color, lol).

Anyway, he's probably town. His claim really does not make sense as scum, and I don't really see how him basically ignoring a weird, anonymous message is inherently a scum tell.

[Yosarian2]

I was going to quote Kats saying this game was boring and then vote for him, but, meh, I think this is better.

Vote:Furcolow

[Yosarian2]

I shan't answer Hiraki's question.

this supports my POV that Hiraki just made up that whole vision. this means that mod never used the word 'tricolor'. HIRAKI IS LYING.

Uh

I shan't answer Hiraki's question as I shall neither deny nor confirm that the word 'tricolour' is part of my vocabulary.

How do you get from the mod saying "I will neither confirm or deny" to a "the mod never used the word"? The mod isn't answering the question, because she doesn't want to confirm Hiraki's role.

the mod's vocabulary is not my vision's vocabulary

whaaat

[Yosarian2]

I shan't answer Hiraki's question as I shall neither deny nor confirm that the word 'tricolour' is part of my vocabulary.

How do you get from the mod saying "I will neither confirm or deny" to a "the mod never used the word"? The mod isn't answering the question, because she doesn't want to confirm Hiraki's role.

the mod EDITED his post for that.
the question he wasa asked is:

Mod: If a flag is tricolored, does white count as a color for the purposes of this game?

why would the mod change

I shan't answer Hiraki's question.

to

I shan't answer Hiraki's question as I shall neither deny nor confirm that the word 'tricolour' is part of my vocabulary.

????
he was not asked that. his answer was sufficient. why the addition? and AFTER we moved on?

You were using the mod's quote as part of an arumgnet. Perhaps the mod thought she was being misunderstood by you, and wanted to clear up any misunderstanding? The mod edited the post after you quoted it, I assume.

Anyway, Hiraki, by your role, do you get some kind of flavor information from the mod every night? Can we expect some more info from you tommorow if we don't lynch you today?

[Yosarian2]

post

.

seriously guys. This game isn't fun with posts like that, please have some content ><

Yosarian, have you understood my case on Hiraki? whaddya think about it?

I don't think he's scum.

[Yosarian2]

So...why am I the only person voting for Furcolow? I can't be the only one who has a problem with his play here.

[Yosarian2]

There you go thinking you're more awesome than me again.

Well, Nuwen doesn't seem that scummy, and I don't want to vote for either Hiraki or Shos today.

Best way I can sum up the Hiraki-Shos situation is "some weird night stuff happened, based on some weird flavor-based roles that neither player entierly understands." Shos role is confirmed by Hiraki; Hiraki's role isn't, quite, but he seems unlikely to be making stuff up here.

[Yosarian2]

There you go thinking you're more awesome than me again.

Well, Nuwen doesn't seem that scummy, and I don't want to vote for either Hiraki or Shos today.

Haven't I basically covered Nuwen-scum in triplicate?

You haven't actually said anything new since the last time I explained why I'm not interested in a Nuwen lynch.

[Yosarian2]

4 and a half days til deadline. furc nameclaim so i can get mine over with.

yos, whos scum besides furc?

Shos is probably town. His ability is confirmed, at least. It's possible he's a scum message sender, but its not that likely.
Hiraki is probably town. His actions and claim don't really make any sense as scum.

In any case, I'm guessing we'll get more information on the two of them as the game goes on.

Vi seems very townish, especially with her vigorous defense of both UN and Elmo yesterday. Leaning town on charter and nuwen.

Scum are probably within the group of:

Katsuki
Parama
Zar
kanyeknowsbest
Furcolow

Out of that group, I have vaguely good vibes from kanye and zar, but nothing I'd bet on. I'd be happy lynching Furcolow or Katsuki.

[Yosarian2]

so yos is scum guys
just sayin'

PAST ME AGREES!

I will totally settle for a Yos lynch. Only one I'll consider aside from Hiraki.

Explain how this makes any kind of sense at all, considering both my vig claim and the fact that Hiraki had night information that partly confirmed it.

Also, it's pretty iffy for you to say that with no explanation in response to a POE I make that has you listed as one of my top 3 scum suspects. Your Hiraki vote is pretty weak as well.

You know, we could just lynch Parama today.

[Yosarian2]

i would not be opposed.

Ok.

unvote

vote:Parama

[Yosarian2]

Yos, you keep ignoring my case on Hiraki with the basis of 'his vision' doesn't make sense as scum.


for the tenth time, his vision did not give town any valuable info. it happened in a completely random time in the game, was very controversial with that tricolor thing & the mod's edit. A vision like that is so easily made up, especially when it doesn't actually say anything. the 'confirmation' about your claim - was it even questioned? was it needed? did it help anyone?

You think he just totally invented it out of thin air? Why? How?

I'm not totally ruling it out, but:

FUCK ALL OF YOU.

I got a vision. Three visions.

Apparently one of the scum's flavor name, so I can deduce this vision, is named Martin.

I'll paraphrase the entire PM for investigation though, for later days.

So, I decided to go check out Elmo's crimescene some more.

I inspect the glass and find a medallion. Suddenly, because I picked up the medallion, I receive three visions.

The murderer had this medallion before, as he dropped it after he committed the murder. A vision of a tricolor flag(white isn't a color bitches) And finally, a man cutting his cape and muttering the word Martin.

These visions then end, oddly. I am left to ponder on them.

The odds that a random scum would just come out with a claim like that out of the blue based on nothing seem pretty low. Have you ever seen scum do that? If he was going to fake a role, why would he fake this? Why not claim something more likely to keep him alive, like a useful night ability? Also, this post has this whole "clumsily/weirdly worded" property that I associate with someone who reads a mod message they don't quite understand but they need to paraphrase it/change enough words so they don't get modkilled.

We should probably wait and see ; he's not confirmed town, but I don't think it's likely he's lying here.

Hiraki: You say you "decided" to look at the crime scene. Was this an actual decision you had, or was that line part of the vision?

[Yosarian2]

Hiraki being scum is independent of whether he made up his claim, since it's very unlikely that he fabricated it.

So you think he's likely to be a scum flavor coroner who didn't know it? Really?

[Yosarian2]

why is it so 'out of the blue'? he was being attacked with very specific accusations. note that he was not voted yet; so he had no reason to claim a role. instead he invented some random shit that really holds no water. his claim has nothing to do with his role; therefore it doesn't limit him about anything. it *looks* like it confirms info or stuff, but in fact, what did he say? he finds a medallion - mod already said a medallion was found in the crimescene. the murderer has had that medallion earlier? who gives a shit. a tricolor flag? doesn't help us at all; with the extra about white being a color or not - completely invented it. he said it himself. and then what - a random useless sentence.

shos: there is just no way I'm going to believe that he invented stuff that had layers of meaning that he did not understand (the French flag, for example, which he did not recognize), that apparently referenced information that had not been claimed yet (my own role name). The claim is real.

So, assume that we're not lynching either Hiraki today. We've got very little time to lynch someone else, and a no-lynch would just kill what's left of our momentum, so who would your second choice for a lynch be?

We need to stop screwing around and put together a lynch wagon that actually makes sense, and we need to do it fast.

[Yosarian2]

I'm just gonna say Yos is OMGUSing

Ok, that's BS and you know it. Before you voted for me, I said that the scum group is probably within (Katsuki, Parama, Zar, kanyeknowsbest, Furcolow), and that I had weak town vibes from Zar and Kanye. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that that means that, if there are 3 scum, that I think you are one of them. And then in response to me calling you scum, you called me scum. You OMGUSed me, not the other way around.

Now, to be fair, I was going to wait on you and lynch Kats or Furcolow first, on the theory that you might yet end up at least being more useful to the town and more active then either of them so we might as well lynch them first, but then you proved that you weren't going to be a useful member of the town by OMGUSing me without even commenting on my how the hell me being scum could possibly make any sense in this scenario here. The way you ignore all the evidence and keep voting for the Hiraki isn't helping you here either, and my Furcolow vote wasn't going anywhere, although no one was willing to explain why they didn't want to vote for him.

[Yosarian2]

Edit: Voted in that second sentence should say "attacked". You know what I mean.

[Yosarian2]

C'mon, Vi, you know you want to join a Parama wagon.

[Yosarian2]

Does Parama like intentionally say really controversial things that get him lynched as scum?

I don't really have much of a useful meta on Parama, other then that he usually plays about like this.

What do you think he's said that's really controversial?

[Yosarian2]

One more time, so everyone can hear it Parama: Yos is scum claiming vig. You think Yos is scum claiming vig. You, Parama, think Yosarian2 claimed out the scum kill as a vig bullet for no reason or hint of a track/whatever result on him.

^^^

Attacking me isn't nearly as controversial as it should be.

Anyway, he hasn't actually explained that he thinks I'm a scum pretending to be vig, or whtaever. He's just ignoring my claim completly so he can offhandedly call me scum, half as OMGUS and half so he can use that as an excuse to ignore my defense of Hiraki.

[Yosarian2]

you think that he did not fake that because he knew that you were french??

But he didn't know I was French; I hadn't claimed that yet. He also didn't seem to know that the tricolor is the name of the French flag, and I doubt he's that good of an actor.

well...so you think that the 'tricolor' part WAS a part of the message.

It obviously was, yes.

to that I say: firstly note the fact that the mod actually EDITED his post about hiraki's question to add that 'tricolor' may or may not be a part of hsi dictionary

Right. You thought the mod's post was the mod denying using Tricolor, which it wasn't, so the mod intentionally went back and edited her post to make absolutely clear that that was not what she meant. You do realize that that undermines your entire point here, right?

; secondly, how would you explain the fact that Hiraki specifically claimed that his vision told him that 'white is not a color bitches', and then a while later he forfeited that part of the vision, saying that was his opinion?

Uh, no, he never said that. It seemed pretty clear in his initial post that that was just a joke on his part.

[Yosarian2]

...

Huh.

unvote:Parama

You sure about this?

[Yosarian2]

Ok.

Vote:hiraki

You'd better be right.

[Yosarian2]

You'd better be right.

What are you insinuating?

that if you are faking this claim or screwing around, you need to fess up now, because if you lie and Hihaki flips town, we are going to lynch you so fast tomorrow you won't even have a chance to fake paranoid cop.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, I want you to answer this question, it's important:
Do you have any more shots?

It really seems like either way it would be against the interest of the town for me to clarify that, doesn't it? Am I missing something here?

[Yosarian2]

Is this the part where I point out the claimed Vidgewithnoreasontoclaim attacking the claimed Copwithnoreasontoclaim?

Not attacking him. Just making damn sure that this isn't some retarded gambit that's going to screw over the town. If he's actually claiming info role with a guilty, then I'm going along with the lynch, despite my best judgement.

[Yosarian2]

Very important.
Please clarify.

Ok, fine, I'll fullclaim, but this is the very last inch of rope you're getting.

The way my role was set up, I lose my ability (get suspended from the police force or something) if I kill a town, and Elmo somehow flipped town despite all logic and reasoning. So yes, I am no longer a vig.

[Yosarian2]

Ok.

This is your absolute last chance to say "this is a gambit jk", fyi, unless your goal is to personally break the record and go down as being the fastest day 3 quicklynch in site history.

[Yosarian2]

unvote

I can't believe 3 people voted without pressuring me to fullclaim.

You motherfucking son of a bitch.

unvote

Vote:Furcolow

By the way, thanks for making me fullclaim for no bloody reason and screwing up my attempt to draw the scum kill away from the still useful power roles.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, yeah. I guess it doesn't really matter, since Vi already basically outed me earlier for no reason, but geez, people; did it ever occur to you that you don't want the obvtown people to fullclaim, and that just because something's obvious to you it doesn't mean it's obvious to the scum?

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, you've just wasted more time we don't have.

New plan: everyone stop doing stupid things and just follow me today so we can lynch scum.

[Yosarian2]

You're not voting me anymore. Why?

Because you're not scum, you're batshit insane town. Highly doubt scum does a stupid gambit like that, it doesn't get you anything as scum, especially since with your timing was clearly a high-risk information gathering technique

I will say that you're damn lucky that he wasn't hammered before you recended your fakeclaim, or I wouldn't be giving you the benefit of the doubt like I am now.

[Yosarian2]

if you all want to mislynch me go ahead and fucking do it

If you don't want to get lynched, you could try doing something at least marginally pro-town today.

[Yosarian2]

See? Furcolow=scum. Easy.

Come on, let's get this going, we've only got a few days. If we no lynch today I'm going to be very upset with you people.

[Yosarian2]

Nuwen, Hiraki, and one of furc/katsuki

that is the scumteam, I'll vote whichever has the most votes.

Hiraki is still town.

Anyway, yeah, we're lynching Furc today.

[Yosarian2]

Hmm. Any more to that claim, furcolow? Do you get alignments, roles, or both? Right now, that kind of sounds like a possible scum role cop who wanted to at least tell his buddies that he found a town power role before he dies.

unvote

for now, to make sure everyone at least has a chance to respond.

[Yosarian2]

unvote;
vote: Zar

let's do me vs. you today, bub

Yeah okay.

Not a town rolecop. Outing the tracker also tells us the scum team lacks daytalk. Put this clown to rest and protect/watch Zar tonight.

Yes, forgot about that. No way in heck a town rolecop tries to 1v1 the guy who he got a tracker result on.

Vote:Furcolow

die suck die

[Yosarian2]

yup, nobody hammer till he answers why he targeted Zar, supposedly.

Uh. He's confirmed scum here. I don't think we really care if he answers a question or not.

[Yosarian2]

If I forget to post day two, just count on a vote for Nuwen/Hiraki.

hint: both of those people just helped us lynch a scum

you didn't

[Yosarian2]

Oh, that's bs, VI. I don't know why there were 2 kills last night any more then you do; most likely there is a second person with some kind of vig ability that didn't or couldn't use it night 1. There's no way that you actually believe that I'm scum after I singlehandedly created a Furcolow wagon from absolutely nothing 3 days before deadline, though.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, that's bs, VI. I don't know why there were 2 kills last night any more then you do; most likely there is a second person with some kind of vig ability that didn't or couldn't use it night 1.

This still doesn't solve the three-kills issue. I'll make a judgment when I see a claim, at any rate.

Uh; yes, it would solve the issue actually; that would explain why there are two kills today. We already knew there was at least one blocked kill night 1.

Anyway we already have a claimed bulletproof, and it's unlikely that that's the only kill-stopping role.

There's no way that you actually believe that I'm scum after I singlehandedly created a Furcolow wagon from absolutely nothing 3 days before deadline, though.

You're right, I don't believe that. You cast a vote on Furcolow seven days before deadline without any particularly defined reason, and returned to it after you got gambited.

Uh, I explained in pretty great detail why I thought he was scum when I voted him the first time, thank you very much. I basically POE's the list down to my 3 most likely suspects, which were Furcolow, Kats, and Parama. I went after Furcolow; I then got distrated over to Parama when he was being stupid, then we got derailed by the gambit, and then after that was over I went back to Parama.

And yes, when I voted for Furcolow 3 days before deadline and told everyone to "stop doing stupid things and follow me" after the stupid cop gambit, there was no one else voting for him at the time. People followed me, and we got it all the way to a lynch.

There is no way Furcolow was going to be lynched yesterday if I hadn't lynched him. No one else was even paying any attention to him; everyone else was either content to just let him lurk his way through the game, or else they had forgotten about him completely.

You know that I'm town here, Vi. You know that there's no way I claim vig as scum at the start of day 2 for no reason. You know there's zero chance that a scum shoots Elmo after night 1. You know that there's no way that me and Furcolow were scum buddies yesterday if you read the thread, and you know that I've been playing like town. Are you seriously going to let stupid setup speculation get in the way of all of that?

[Yosarian2]

Edit:
after that was over I went back to

Parama

Furcolow

[Yosarian2]

I could go for a Katsuki wagon.

Vote:Magua

, who is apparently Kat's replacement.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, that's bs, VI. I don't know why there were 2 kills last night any more then you do; most likely there is a second person with some kind of vig ability that didn't or couldn't use it night 1.

This still doesn't solve the three-kills issue. I'll make a judgment when I see a claim, at any rate.

Uh; yes, it would solve the issue actually; that would explain why there are two kills today. We already knew there was at least one blocked kill night 1.

If you had shot scum N1 per your claim, there would be three kills N2. Slightly less ridiculous.

(shrug) My hunch right now is that there's two semi-vigs in this game; me, and an even night vig or something. Just a guess, of course; there could be any other number of possibilities. I kind of doubt a scum would shoot Parama last night, though; that looks more like a vig shot to me.

As for two blocked kills N1? Possible but generally unlikely, especially since Nuwen cried out for someone, anyone to claim a blocking role and got no response.

We also made clear we didn't want a doctor to claim. A doctor is pretty likely, considering that there doesn't seem to be a full cop in this game. Also, I think the scum are afraid of a doctor; I notice that even though their buddy pointed out Zar as a power role yesterday, they avoided killing him last night, most likely because they didn't want to run smack into a doc protect again.

And, of course, a scum roleblocker is also quite possible; they obviously wouldn't claim either. And we have a bulletproof claim as well.

(Coming back from the end of your post; you're also speculating about a SK, I see. If there is one, that's likely to be another unkillable role in a game like this, which would make two bulletproofs, along with whatever else there is.)

I could go on with the setup speculation, but you can do that as well as I can; you know as well as I do that you can't just count the kills and come to a conclusion like you're trying to do, there's too many possibilities, even just including roles common in mini-games.

Yes you threw your vote on Furcolow when it wasn't trendy and when he started to stink like a dead squirrel people jumped on. There is that. But I don't know how your vote got there to start with. He was even at the bottom of your PoE list.

Uh. What?

Shos is probably town. His ability is confirmed, at least. It's possible he's a scum message sender, but its not that likely.
Hiraki is probably town. His actions and claim don't really make any sense as scum.

In any case, I'm guessing we'll get more information on the two of them as the game goes on.

Vi seems very townish, especially with her vigorous defense of both UN and Elmo yesterday. Leaning town on charter and nuwen.

Scum are probably within the group of:

Katsuki
Parama
Zar
kanyeknowsbest
Furcolow

Out of that group, I have vaguely good vibes from kanye and zar, but nothing I'd bet on. I'd be happy lynching Furcolow or Katsuki.

The two top suspects on that list were Furcolow or Fatsuki, with Parama as #3; I had a weak town read on kanye and zar, and I eliminated everyone else. (Clearly at least one of the people I eliminated was incorrect; or two, if your SK-speculation is right.) I dropped Parama from my suspect list after the cop gambit, but odds are looking really good good that both Furcolow and Kats are scum, which would make that POE scumhunting method awesome even if thought it clearly wasn't 100% correct.

Anyway; you did realize that that list wasn't in any specific order, right? I figured that would have been obvious since the two guys I thought were town were in the middle, and my suspects were on the top and the bottom.

I'm not really sure what you didn't get about that; I thought it was pretty clear where I got everything from.

You know that I'm town here, Vi. You know that there's no way I claim vig as scum at the start of day 2 for no reason. You know there's zero chance that a scum shoots Elmo after night 1. You know that there's no way that me and Furcolow were scum buddies yesterday if you read the thread, and you know that I've been playing like town. Are you seriously going to let stupid setup speculation get in the way of all of that?

Speaking frankly I would rather play Setupafia any day of the week. And if Nuwen is calling you an SK by projecting her own opinion onto me - and I'll take her word for it because she's scum - then the other reasons go away.

As for playing like Town, refer to a whole lot of what I said about your play D1. Etc. and etc.

Now if you really wanted to play like Town you would vote Nuwen.

Eh. There could be an SK in this game, I suppose.

That doesn't actually make "any of those other reasons" go away, though. In order for you to believe that I was a SK, you would first have to believe that the SK would shoot Elmo on night 1, even though he was obviously going to be lynched on day 2; and you would have to believe that I, as SK, would claim vig at the start of day 2 for no reason.

Vi, I'm frankly having a lot of trouble understanding how town-Vi could be entertaining any serious suspicion of me at this point. You'd have to believe about 4 impossible things before breakfast in order to do that, and the only reason you're giving is pretty weak speculation based on the number of kills, which you know there are about a billion plausible explanations for. I had you written off as town, but it looks like at least one of my town reads was wrong, and you're not making sense today; it's making me fairly uncomfortable.

[Yosarian2]

At risk of opening up reviewer meta, I have to advise people who think that allowing three kills a Night in a Mini game is a good idea on a fairly regular basis. In what I'd like to call a substantial amount of the time, the answer is no.

Yes, from a theory standpoint, that's probably true. Doesn't change the fact that "vig, mafia, sk" setups or "vig, mafia1, mafia2" or similar setups are quite common on the site, apparently despite your best efforts.

And, of course, in this setup, assuming the vig shoots every night, the only way there could be 3 kills on night 2 is if the vig shot a scum night 1 (since I lose my powers if I shoot a town). That reduces the swingy factor you are talking about, since a "3 kill night 2" is not going to happen if there are still a full contingent of scum.

Anyway, I thought Nuwen was town yesterday, and she played a huge role in the scum lynch yesterday after that. She is ranked really high on my town list right now; I think she is significantly more likely to be town then you are at this point, and have no intention of voting her today.

Current list:

Confirmed town:
Charter: Confirmed town by Zar
Zar: COnfirmed town info role by the way Furcolow acted yesterday

Strongly town based on play:

Nuwen: Played a big role in lynching Furcolow after claim yesterday.


Neutral/mildly pro-town

Shos - The bulletpoof claim is forcing me to wonder if he could be a SK, but he would have to be a SK who could send messages

I just don't know:
Heichi- town-ish gut feelings yesterday. Visons were clearly not made up, but apparently don't say anything about alignment.
Vi-Gets some town cred for defending UN and Elmo day 1, and did eventually follow me onto the Furcolow lynch yesterday. Bizarre behavior today, though. Also gets some - points for the way she's been so singlemindedly pushing the awful Nuwen wagon for so long.

Probably scum:

Katsuki

Magua : Chronic lurker, basically no content. I can't see any way this slot is likely to be town here.


Mafia is probably (Kats + Heichi) or (Kats + Vi). I suppose (Heichi + Vi) also is possible.

If there is a SK, it is probably in the group (shoes, vi, heichi, or Kats.)

We do want to give Magna a chance to catch up and say something before we lynch, but I'm really thinking that's the way to go today.

[Yosarian2]

she did punish furcolow's claim

there is that

but by that time everyone had agreed to lynch furco anyway

Mmm. I suppose. I think there was a fair risk the claim would have stalled out the wagon without her going back and finding the contradiction between the claim and Fur's behabior, though. I guess you are right that it was a logical time for a bus, but I really don't see her as being scum yesterday; most of her posts really felt right to me.

really yos

really

do you have any idea how nuwen plays

have you HEARD anything about how nuwen plays

have you SEEN anything about how nuwen plays

I mean as town

THIS IS NOT IT

What

are

you

high

on

haha

I like the use of white space. It's very artistic.

Anyway, yeah, I know how Nuwen plays as town; I've even hydraed with her before. This feels like it to me. Frankly, I would have been suspicious if Nuwen hadn't gone after people like Uberninja and Elmo; Nuwen-town has a very low tollerance for lurkers, illogical play, and general stupidity.

Eh. Perhaps I have her ranked too high; I hate the part of the game where I find out that one of my town reads was wrong and have to figure out which one it is. I really don't at all see what you're talking about, though. How is her play this game different from her town meta?

[Yosarian2]

Vi-Gets some town cred for defending UN and Elmo day 1, and did eventually follow me onto the Furcolow lynch yesterday. Bizarre behavior today, though. Also gets some - points for the way she's been so singlemindedly pushing the awful Nuwen wagon for so long.

omg

u are teh dum

and not just because I've been holding the polar opposite against you since the MIDDLE OF DAY 1

has it occurred to you that you might be wrong and/or that i may be right

Of course it has. Every time it does, I go back, re-read Nuwen's posts again, and say "neah, I don't see it."

But yes, of course I could be wrong. I'm never 100% sure about anything other then cop results and Ether's alignment. So convince me.

Probably scum:

Katsuki

Magua : Chronic lurker, basically no content. I can't see any way this slot is likely to be town here.

is this entirely based on lurking
or is there more

because I know someone else who chronically lurks and gives basically no content

and even stalled to claim, JUST LIKE CERTAIN OTHER SCUM WE KNOW

It's based on process of elimination, the exact same way I nailed Furc yesterday. There are just too many people this game that are either clearly town or at least probably town. (shrug) Even if I was wrong about everything else and Nuwen was somehow scum, kats would *still* be her most likely scumbuddy.

[Yosarian2]

of sitting around

not voting

making idle threats

and then COMPLAINING THAT THE GAME IS GOING NOWHERE AND BORING

WHILE YOUR VOTE IS ON NO ONE

BECAUSE IT'S TRENDY TO COMPLAIN

also looking at flavor

this style of posting is remarkably therapeutic but has to look horrible

I'll apologize tomorrow or something

I mean

nuwen as town would

uh

ACTUALLY TRY TO LYNCH SCUM

instead of hanging back and waiting for power roles or flavor or something to incriminate her

is this really such a radical concept

seriously

This should seriously be your new posting style in all games all the time, it is pretty awesome.

Anyway, that's actually a pretty reasonable case. For a lot of day 2 Nuwen wasn't doing a lot of scumhunting. I do get a good vibe from the way she was defending certain people and the way she was questioning Furc about his aweful Yos-vote, but you're right, it would be better if she had placed a vote on Furc or whatever while doing it. Nuwen?

[Yosarian2]

Vi: there is one thing in my (admittedly rather wordy) posts that you didn't comment on, and I'd like to hear what you think.

Even if I was wrong about everything else and Nuwen was somehow scum, kats would *still* be her most likely scumbuddy.

Let me explain this a little more. All logic starts with assumptions, so let me list mine. Note that this logic is all about finding the mafia scum pair, so all of these assumptions are strictly about mafia, not about the possibility of a SK.

Assumption 1: chamber and Zar are both confirmed town

Assumption 2: Nuwen and Vi are not scum together. I think this is pretty solid; it's possible Vi is mafia, it's possible Nuwen is mafia, and it's possible that both are town, but I don't think anyone is going to convince me that it's at all likely that they're scum together and that Vi's month-long anti-Nuwen crusade has been a bus.

Assumption 3: shos is not mafia. This is probably the weakest of the 3, but I don't think it's at all likely that he's part of the mafia here. (If you don't trust this assumption, you could replace this with "shos and Hiraki are not scum together", which seems pretty clear from their interactions on day 2, and you get basically the same results.)

Assumption 4: there are 2 scum left. This one actually isn't 100% certain; if there is a SK, then a 2 man scum group is possible. I'm going to assume the worst case scenario for now, though.

Anyway, as for possible scum pairs, that only leaves:

(Nuwen or Vi) + Hiraki
(Nuwen or Vi) + Kats
Hiraki + Kats

That logic makes me want to lynch either Hiraki or Kats today. Between the two of them, Hiraki looks a lot more town; at the end of the day yesterday, I noticed that even though Hiraki looked like he was going to get lynched, he opposed the Parama wagon I was trying to push (note that this was before the whole stupid cop gambit thing):

I don't think Parama is scum

just playing bad town this game

But he did join the Furcolow wagon later in the day. Considering Parama was town and Furcolow was scum, this raises my opinion of Hiraki. It's not ironclad, of course, but he just doesn't feel like scum; I have a lot more scumtells from that slot then from the Kats slot.

So, yeah. I really think the Kats/Magua slot is logically going to be mafia here; the odds of there being a mafia pair that does not include him seems pretty low to me.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, fair enough; just because charter didn't make the kill doesn't necessarally man he's not scum, if there's two scum left.

I highly doubt that he is, but ect

[Yosarian2]

Getting back on track somewhere, Magua's post 1630 is something I could stand to lynch over on its own. The major issues with that are:
1) it's not a Nuwen lynch, and
2) it's not a lynch on someone willing to explain the kill situation (i.e. you)

So etc.

The fact that you're still trying to make me look suspicious is a pretty big black mark against you here; Vi-scum would really need to try to throw some doubt on my town-status here in order to avoid getting process of elimination-ed, and I really have a hard time believing that vi-town would suspect me here at all, much less vote me just over what you have to know is some really weak setup speculation. It also looks like you're trying to cast doubt on charter being town, even though you've were calling him town as well all of yesterday. Starting to feel a little cornered?

I also don't get why you're reluctant to join me in lynching Magua here if you seem to generally agree with my logic. You do realize that there's no chance you're going to get me lynched today, right? If you were still tunneled on Nuwen I could almost understand that, but you don't even have that excuse.

[Yosarian2]

Vi-scum would really need to try to throw some doubt on my town-status here in order to avoid getting process of elimination-ed, and I really have a hard time believing that vi-town would suspect me here at all, much less vote me just over what you have to know is some really weak setup speculation. It also looks like you're trying to cast doubt on charter being town, even though you've were calling him town as well all of yesterday. Starting to feel a little cornered?

Vi-scum would know better than to try lynching a claimed Vig. I'm crazy, but not stupid. [/quote]

I don't think you really do expect to lynch me today. (Although trying to lynch a vig by calling him a SK is actually a trick that does work fairly often.) I am concerned that you're trying to set me up so I can be lynched later.

Also, I'm still disturbed that you were fishing yesterday to find out if I was a one-shot vig or not. If you (and Parama) hadn't done that and revealed that I couldn't shoot again, I probably would have taken a scum kill last night, and drawing the scum kill was half of the reason I claimed in the first place. You never explaind this, Vi; Why did you announce in thread yesterday that you thought I was a one-shot vig? If you are town, why would you tell that to the scum? Or were you scum trying to fish to find out if I was a threat or not?

*You've made a claim that defies flavor balance sense and your attempts to make it seem otherwise are equally implausible

Uh, I already explained why it's not unbalanced, and I don't know why you ignored the logic. My role is much less likely to prematurely end the game then a standard vig would be in a mafia+vig+SK setup, since I can only kill on night 2 if I shot a scum on night 1. Mafia+SK+1-shot vig isn't at all destabilizing in a 13 players setup (the single extra kill basically just makes it a mafia + SK 12 player setup, effectively), and my vig role is one shot unless I shoot a scum (if I do shoot a scum night 1, then the scum group is one smaller and the town can't get endgamed with 5 people left alive).

*and the mod hints associated with your claim

do not match your role at all

How do you figure?

The murderer had this medallion before, as he dropped it after he committed the murder. A vision of a tricolor flag(white isn't a color bitches) And finally, a man cutting his cape and muttering the word Martin.

Part of the reason I believed Hiraki was that that claim, in a vague, fuzzy way, seemed to match my role, a french detective who was suspended from duty after destroying a good piece of art. Or maybe only part of it is. I donno. It's so vauge, and it's filtered through Hiraki's paraphrase, so it's hard to say for sure.

*and speaking frankly I don't trust anyone who is trying to sway me away from the bloody obvious scum that is Nuwen. I've lost too many games because I got talked out of lynching scum and/or wasn't able to lynch them. Not this time.

Yeah, if you're now accusing me of being a SK, then you can't also accuse me of being scum with Nuwen. Pick one absurd excuse for voting me or the other, you can't have it both ways.

[Yosarian2]

and him being an SK works for me; that's why he did not say he shot anyone tonight.

Did you miss my claim at the end of the day yesterday?

The way my role is set up, I lose my vig ability (get suspended from the police force is the flavor) if I shoot a townie. I did, so I could not kill anyone last night, and I can't kill anyone for the rest of the game. I'm effectively vanilla now, which is why I was trying to draw the scum kill yesterday by claiming vig right a the start of the day.

If anyone tracked or watched me or whatever, or if they do any point from now until the end of the game, they can confirm that I did not and will not go anywhere.

[Yosarian2]

Here's how we figure that part out: Yos, you lynching Vi today? You've spent a lot of time making it clear that your town read on me isn't iron-clad, while also prodding Vi as scum. The only thing you've made clear is that you don't think we can be scum TOGETHER, which is about as Captain Obvious as it gets. We know you're not part of any scum faction; the only question here is whether you're an SK or true vig.

vote Vi

How does me lynching Vi or not "help you figure out" if I'm a vig or a SK? That doesn't really make sense, Nuwen.

I really do want to lynch Magna today; I think that no matter if Vi is scum, if you are scum, or if you've both town, that he really has to be the second member of the scum team. What do you think about him, Nuwen? Usually you'd be all over going after someone who's lurked all game.

[Yosarian2]

if you are indeed telling the truth, than having 2 kills tonight makes the game alittle too much killful the way I see it. if you are indeed telling the truth, then thsi game could have had 2 deaths on night 1, and 2 deaths on night 2, getting us to lylo in 2 nights?? I don't think that's normal.

I just explained why it's quite possible, shos, in my last post to vi.

If there is a SK in this game, then SK+Mafia+1-shot vig in a 13 player game is the same as SK+mafia in a 12 player game (mafia+sk in a 12 player game was probably the most common and standard mini setup for mafiascum for years and years, before we bumped the mini games up to 13 a little while ago). The only situation in which I'm not a 1 shot vig is if I kill a scum night 1; and in that case, the fact that there's a dead scum delays lynch or lose.

[Yosarian2]

yes I got that info already, but you missed something.
if there's a SK+mafia+1shotvig, then coming up day 2 there could be FOUR people dead. and with 9 players left, 3 scums, that is mylo. there's no frekin way that is the case, mylo after 1 night.

Yes, shos, that is true in every 12 player game with a 3 man mafia and a SK. Which has never stopped that from being a popular setup.

That being said, we don't actually know there is was a 3 man mafia. There could just as easily be a 2 man mafia and a SK; that's not an unusual setup either.

[Yosarian2]

I am not too experienced and I do not consider that such a good setup, even if it was popular. and as I said, 2 mafia and an SK is an option, but that still makes you an SK

...

No, I'm a vig. I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall here. 2-3 mafia+SK in a 12 player setup = 2-3 mafia + SK +1 shot vig in a 13 player setup. Any of those setups are balanced-ish, and are quite possible.

[Yosarian2]

Actually, I've been toying with the theory that Mafia shot the SK, who opted for a scummy kill to claim Vig. It would explain Furcolow's reaction to Yosarian's vig claim.

Only idiots claim vig as SK for no reason.

[Yosarian2]

To answer something further down, 8-3-1 was one of

the worst

Mini setups out there. Players and mods were both complaining about getting screwed by mislynching once and the Town never being able to recover. It's a big part of why Minis went up to thirteen players (which having an OSVig in kind of renders worthless). Etc. I should not have to be lecturing you on this.

Vi: Of course you don't have to lecture me about this. I understand setup theory just fine. But that doesn't change the fact that that setup has been played hundreds of times on mafiascum, it was probably the most common setup for years, and there's no reason to assume that a mod wouldn't run a variet on that theme again today (especially a mod who was around then, like SL). If you don't like it, then complain to the mod after the game is over.

Of course, a 13 player OSV setup only devolves into (8-3-1) if the vig misses, so the town has a pretty significant mathmatical edge over a normal 8-3-1. The fact that the vig is theoretically repeatable if they hit scum gives the town another mathmatical edge. And, of course, 9-2-1 is also possible here, which would totally eliminate all those balance problems.

Setup theory is great, Vi, but you have to actually be realistic and not think that all mods conform to your idea of what a setup should look like, especially not when you have so many counterexamples.

How do you figure?

Your role. St. George. Or whoever it was when I brought out links for pointing out what Hiraki was talking about. It describes a sculpture or whatever it's called. Not a living police chief.

I must have missed that, because I have no idea what you're talking about. My role is my role.

I really do want to lynch Magna today; I think that no matter if Vi is scum, if you are scum, or if you've both town, that he really has to be the second member of the scum team. What do you think about him, Nuwen? Usually you'd be all over going after someone who's lurked all game.

BECAUSE SHE'S SCUM YOU MORON
HOW MANY TIMES DURING A SINGLE GAME DO I HAVE TO REPEAT THIS BEFORE YOU GET IT
HOW MANY TIMES DURING A SINGLE GAME DO I HAVE TO REPEAT THIS BEFORE ANYONE GETS IT

Hint: I am trying to get a reaction about Magna today from both you and Nuwen, so when we lynch him and he flips scum, I will be able to figure out which one of you is his last partner, if either of you is.

Hint #2: that means it's time to bus him. gogogo

PPE:

I'm talking about my Night action, and how someone stopped me from carrying it out.

Interesting. So you're claiming that you were rolebocked?

That's really, really odd, considering that earlier today when you were trying to lynch me, you were saying that:

As for two blocked kills N1? Possible but generally unlikely, especially since Nuwen cried out for someone, anyone to claim a blocking role and got no response.

So...early today you were claiming that there was "no way" that there were two missed kills night 1 because if there was a roleblocker they would have claimed, and now you're saying that you knew that there was a roleblocker while you were making that argument? Explain to me what's going on here, because it looks to me like either you're not lying now, or else you were deliberately withholding key facts that you had earlier in order to make me look worse.

[Yosarian2]

Cuttan down the quotes.

Re: setup theory - at this point I'm just done talking about it. I've already got a full plate of shouting into the wind.

...

"Shouting into the wind?" I don't even understand how you could disagree with me here. Your entire argument seems to be "I don't like the historically very common setup X because it's swingy, so this can't be setup X, because I don't like setup X". You do realize that you didn't get to review this game, right?

Re: your role not being your role - This post. And evidently this is where Nuwen is getting her Martin name from.

Interesting, and pretty impressive research.

You do realize that Hiraki got three different visions there, and it's unlikely that all 3 were about the same role, right? They may even have been sent by different people, if shos's role is any guide. The "cutting the cloak" thing probably was have been about Martin of Tours, but the "tricolor" thing most likely was not; I can't find any connection in that wikipedia article between Martin of Tours and the French tricolor flag, and considering that he lived during Roman times, I don't think that that "tricolor" vision could anything to do with him.

Also...it occurs to me that it's possible that more then one person targeted Elmo for a kill that night. That might help explain the missing kills, too. Not really sure why any scum would, but who knows.

Re: lol reactions about Magua - Enjoy the reaction of me not moving my vote from scum.

:tears hair out:

Vi, i'm trying to find a reason to not lynch you here, don't you get that?

Re: blocked kills - I didn't say "no way". I said "possible but generally unlikely". Which in principle it is. And, again, three kills per Night, see first re: above.

Then again, looking at that again I'm reminded that someone DID claim a blocking role of sorts (Bulletproof).

Yes. You knew there was a roleblocker, if you are telling the truth. There was a bulletproof claim. There is a dead "town night guard", whatever that is. And the scum seem to be avoiding killing the town info role that their buddy outed yesterday, Zar, probably because they're afraid of being stopped by a doctor.

That doesn't really answer my question, though. Early in the day today, when you were trying to cast doubt on my claim, you implied that there were probably no roleblockers in the game. Why would you do this if you knew that there was at least one?

[Yosarian2]

In re: Martin of Tours - The Tricolor is the only one that doesn't directly fit, and even then, Martin is strongly connected to France from what I remember.

Yeah, but the Tricolor is associated with the French Revolution specifically, and to a lesser extent with later periods. Defiantly would not associate a Roman-era Gaul Catholic saint with revolutionary France. I would guess that the tricolor is a specific reference to my role, and the Martin stuff is a reference to someone else. It would make no sense at all for Martin to be represented by a tricolor flag.

In re: blocking roles - Unless I'm grossly mistaken about what I said, I did not imply that there were no Roleblockers in the game. I did say that it was unlikely for two kills to be blocked simultaneously.

That was the impression I got when you said:

As for two blocked kills N1? Possible but generally unlikely, especially since Nuwen cried out for someone, anyone to claim a blocking role and got no response.

Me (and later Nuwen) were both specifically asking for *roleblockers* to claim; and by bringing that up, I assumed you were trying to prove that there weren't any roleblockers in this game or else they would have claimed.

[Yosarian2]

@Yos2 Re: Tricolor - But how does your role have anything to do with the Tricolour (pronounced "try-cull-'hour'")?

(shrug) The tricolour is also the symbol of the French government today; that seems to symbolically fit being French police. In fact people took that as a confirmation of my role before I even realized what was going on.

Let's try this different tack you're on. If the vision isn't referring to you, who is it referring to?
And, if the vision is not referring to you, then what of how Hiraki said that whoever killed Elmo dropped the medallion?

That's a good question.

The scum probably do have safeclaims; considering that the mod basically told us that Madame Récamier was scum in the intro, and that was Furcolow's role, that seems fairly obvious. Probably the "real" martin is scum.

As for why that's related to Furcolow's vision; I have no idea. Like I said, it's possible more then one person targeted Elmo that night.

I mean, as far as this stuff goes, I don't think any of us actually know what any of this means. We were straight out told by the mod that flavor "might trick us".

Re: Roleblockers - I get the impression that you're saying something, and I'm responding, and you're saying the same thing, and I'm responding the same way, and etc. Once again, I have no idea what it would take for you to see things my way.

Well, you're not really answering my question.

You seemed to be trying to prove that there were no roleblockers specifically in the game at the start of the day, and that seems to be at odds with what you're now claiming. If that's not what you were doing, then why did you bring up that no one had responded when I and later Nuwen asked the scum to claim?

Much the same way as how you didn't respond about what it would take to get you to vote Nuwen. And you said that I wouldn't be doing any shouting into the wind.

I am doing my best to try and a read on both you and on Nuwen right now.

That being said, if this is, as you say, a 1v1 situation, my preference in 1v1 situations is to figure out who the OTHER scum has to be and lynch them first, and then how that goes is likely to make the choice easier. If I really can't get anyone else to join on the Manga wagon, though (I'm not sure why not, but ect), then I suppose I will have to choose between you, Nuwen, and Hiraki by the end of the day.

[Yosarian2]

I'm pretty sure you're confusing what 1v1 means. (1v1 is usually "lynch this person, and if they flip Town lynch me Tomorrow")

No, he's right; 1v1 in the sense of "one of these two people are scum". Even if one of you and Nuwen is scum, from my point of view, I'd rather lynch the OTHER scum today and figure you two out tomorrow.

Of course, I think the other scum is Magua and not Hiraki, but, yeah

[Yosarian2]

I suspected Magua's slot earlier this game too; remind me why he's scum?
and why you don't think hiraki is? more importantly?

That logic makes me want to lynch either Hiraki or Kats today. Between the two of them, Hiraki looks a lot more town; at the end of the day yesterday, I noticed that even though Hiraki looked like he was going to get lynched, he opposed the Parama wagon I was trying to push (note that this was before the whole stupid cop gambit thing):

I don't think Parama is scum

just playing bad town this game

But he did join the Furcolow wagon later in the day. Considering Parama was town and Furcolow was scum, this raises my opinion of Hiraki. It's not ironclad, of course, but he just doesn't feel like scum; I have a lot more scumtells from that slot then from the Kats slot.

So, yeah. I really think the Kats/Magua slot is logically going to be mafia here; the odds of there being a mafia pair that does not include him seems pretty low to me.

[Yosarian2]

the defending of parama doesn't add any good stuff to him imo; scum can't only defend their buddies.

Yeah; but defending a town in a situation where that guy is a viable counter-wagon to you with deadline approaching seems like a town-tell to me.

[Yosarian2]

the defending of parama doesn't add any good stuff to him imo; scum can't only defend their buddies.

Yeah; but defending a town in a situation where that guy is a viable counter-wagon to you with deadline approaching seems like a town-tell to me.

can you link me to a place where parama was a counterwagon to hiraki?

On page 60, 4 days until deadline, Hiraki was the #1 wagon. Only 3 votes, but the #1 wagon tends to grow fast at that point. Then I voted for Parama, and Kanye followed me right away, putting him up to 2 votes. Hiraki defended him just a few posts later, before most people had had a chance to comment (only you and Vi had), at a point where I think the Parama wagon actually looked like the best bet for a new wagon to get the heat off of Hiraki.

(shrug) I'm not saying that any of that is an ironclad town tell, I'm just saying I see more signs of townieness from Hiraki then from Kats.

[Yosarian2]

I'm a flavorcop. I get some cryptic clues about someone's name flavor. It's why I was in favor of the massnameclaim yesterday, so I would have everyone's name to verify against. Night one I investigated Furc, last night I investigated Vi. Vi is a mummy like she claimed. As far as I can tell, my role is totally useless.

It's worth mentioning that Vi does not believe my role name-claim, and thinks I'm something else completely; if you could confirm my role flavor as a human member of the police it might be useful.

[Yosarian2]

Also, from a setup point of view, a flavor cop is hardly useless, considering that the mod did basically tell us what the rolename of one of the scum was in the opening post:

When he replaced the handset on its receptacle with trembling hands, Polyphème found himself alone in a room which had turned eerie and menacing, with for only company the corpse of the murdered Directeur du Louvre and the silent stares of hundreds portraits adorning the great museum’s walls.

From the corner of his eyes he caught a slight movement. Was it his imagination or did Madame Récamier just wink at him?

Furcolow,

The Portrait of Madame Récamier

by Jacques Louis David, a mafia charmer - was destroyed by the authorities on Day 2.

[Yosarian2]

Hiraki wouldn't be my first choice, but there's a pretty limited pool of people left who could be mafia or SK, and he is in that pool.

I still would like Nuwen to answer that point Vi made earlier that I quoted.

[Yosarian2]

...actually, that was kind of vauge, wasn't it.

Nuwen, Vi did point out one valid concern about your play. Yesterday, I really appreciate that you helped me lynhc Furc at the end of the day, but before that, you really weren't voting for or attacking anyone for most of the day. Why?

[Yosarian2]

Eh, you usually seem more agressive then that, Nuwen. I really don't think that you're scum with Furc, but your passivity for much of the day yesterday is making me wonder if you could be a SK.

[Yosarian2]

Massclaim might be a good idea; it would be nice to figure out what's going on with these kills. I kind of doubt anyone would have tried to shoot the claimed bulletproof last night.

I'll wait until we get info from charter and anyone else before voting, but still think we should have lynched Magua yesterday. With Hiraki town, and either 2 or 3 anti-town roles left, the odds of Magua being town seem to be close to zero here.

[Yosarian2]

Rolename is Françoise Dupont. I work for the Brigade Criminelle, the french police.

I have no idea if that's a real person you can find on google or wikipedia or whatever.

[Yosarian2]

Is there a picture of your person on that map? or somewhere else? That would help the most.

What map do you mean? There is a picture in my role PM; a black, white, and grey surrealistic portrait

[Yosarian2]

I'm not 100% sure about the gender, looking at the portrait. Short black hair, kind of surrealistic looking. Looks like a charcoal sketch perhaps.

I'm actually trying to find the portrait on google images right now, not found it yet. I'm guessing that picture in my role PM is not be a portrait in the Louvre. (shrug)

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, the flavor is that I'm a police officer who's been assigned to investigate the murder of the Louvre Director.

[Yosarian2]

Hmm. How about a massclaim of flavor pics? this would be interesting to see, and there is no rule forbidding it

I was assuming that copy-pasting the flavor pic would count as quoting the role PM, but I don't actually know.

Mod, are we allowed to show our pictures?

lol, is that what it means that I might get charged? possibly an random immunity to night actions?

Hmm. Well, it could be that scum roleblocker that Vi claimed hit her the night before. If so, though, it makes the lack of night kills even more confusing.

[Yosarian2]

I was assuming that copy-pasting the flavor pic would count as quoting the role PM, but I don't actually know.

Mod, are we allowed to show our pictures?

No rule, so ok.

Sweet, thanks.

[Yosarian2]

If you had actually read what I'd posted, you'd be squirming to explain-away why a doc-protected slot on a night with no scum kill (N1 - Yos claimed out Elmo's death) remains alive today. Did a magical doc spring up or are you going to tell me that someone no-killed/avoided shooting a protect-confirmed slot this close to endgame to play WIFOM games.

Vi either has an SK-ish vest or controls the scum kill. I want it dead NOW.

Vote: Vi

This post is...really confusing. I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that vi was doc protected on night 1? Are you saying that the scum tried to kill her last night? Are you saying that *you* tried to kill her last night?

[Yosarian2]

The first situation makes it highly, highly unlikely that Vi would still be alive as town (in fact, there's a LOT that shouldn't be alive right now).

I'm not really seeing it. If scum tried to shoot Vi and failed, they wouldn't try again until they knew why, which would have been after the end-day doc claim yesterday. And I woudn't really expect them to try last night; as of yesterday we had multiple claimed power roles; we had both a tracker and a flavorcop, either one of which would have been more likely targets.

I am also starting to have doubts about the existence of a SK; there are just too many missing kills, especially with the doc dead. Perhaps the mafia just had an extra one-shot kill or something?

[Yosarian2]

Eh. More likely, shos, "people" are "killed" or "taken into custody" while pieces of art are "destroyed" or "reduced to pieces". Note that Kanye, Parama, and Hiraki are humans while uberninja, elmo, and furcolow were pieces of art. "Taken into custody" or "destroyed by the athorities" look like lynches, while "killed" or "reduced to pieces" look like nightkills.

We won't know for sure until we see if there's any other kill methods, but I don't think we're getting any info from that, except about the role of the person who died.

[Yosarian2]

I am also starting to have doubts about the existence of a SK; there are just too many missing kills, especially with the doc dead. Perhaps the mafia just had an extra one-shot kill or something?

I've certainly given that idea thought, though I wouldn't expect you to be the one bringing it up.

But frankly, if you'll excuse the arrogance, I think we can lynch scum without setup speculation here. Not that I haven't been saying this for, again, three and a half game Days.

The reason for the setup speculation here is actually about you, since if:
A: a kill was prevented night 1 were saved day 1 by a doc protecting you, and
B: there is no SK, then
C: that would make you town

A is the weakest part of the logic here, since there are apparently quite a few other mechanisms that can stop a kill here (we've seen a roleblocker, a bulletproof, a doctor, and now you're claiming a role that can apparently self-protect in some situations), but still.

[Yosarian2]

Wow.

Just for the record, if that's a fake claim, then after this game is over i am going to nominate Nuwen for the "pumpkin that shoots laser beams out of it's ass" award for sheer creativity.

Anyway, is there any way we can just lynch Manga and move on? Does anyone, I mean

anyone

, have a theory for the role distribution in this game that would involve him being town?

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, is there any way we can just lynch Manga and move on? Does anyone, I mean anyone, have a theory for the role distribution in this game that would involve him being town?

Do I count? Because I have such a theory.

Ok, go for it. Who do you think is scum?

[Yosarian2]

I'm Astrid Sorel,

curious child

. My flavor indicates that I was on day-outing with

two school friends

and

an older classmate of my hoity-toity parochial school

until I turned a corner and a brilliant light seared my vision to a crisp.

annddd- bulletproof: in the role's language - I'm apparantly made of some material which is indestructible in terms of this world. I seem to have an aura sometimes, and so, if I am targeted by any night action, there's a good chance that a blast of pure energy will block it.

There's obviously a flavor link between these two roles, but I'm not really sure what that means.

[Yosarian2]

@Yos2: Magua might be scum. I'm not against a Magua lynch per se, but why are you against a Nuwen lynch? Even her claim has a hole in it. I mean at this point it's getting positively insulting that you aren't considering lynching her. There's even duck cooked in honey and garlic in it for you if you do it (none for me, unfortunately).

Of course I'm *considering* lynching her. The thing is, at this point, it really wouldn't surprise me if she's telling the truth and flipped town. (It also wouldn't surpise me if she flipped scum.) On the other hand, I can't see any way magua could possibly be town. He apparently can't even think of a scenario where he's town and I'm scum, and since I know that I'm town...

[Yosarian2]

PPE: *where he's town and I'm not scum.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, shos's role is looking pretty SK-ish here.

[Yosarian2]

...ok, charter, start over. What is your rolename, what is your flavor, what exactly is your ability. You've claimed in bits and pieces, but I want to see the whole claim in one place, because it's not really making sense to me right now.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, I only see a few possibilities for why there was no kill last night. Magua claims it wasn't him, so that rules that out.

1. Scum tried to kill Vi and failed, like Vi is claiming probably happened.
2. Scum tried to kill shos. Seems very, very unlikely.
3. There is someone else who is bulletproof and lying, probably a SK, and the scum tried to kill that person; in that case, though there is *still* a kill missing. I guess it's possible that there's a bulletproof SK *and* a bulletproof mafia godfather and they both crosskilled last night, which would be pretty funny.
4. Scum intentionally no-killed. Perhaps there is only one mafia left, and he thought he was going to get tracked by Zar, so he decided not to risk doing anything? This seems pretty unlikely.

Most likely seems to be #1 here; scum tried to kill Vi, failed, and there was no SK kill/ is no SK. That would make Vi confirmed not-mafia, either town or SK. It also makes Nuwen look kind of bad, since she seemed to know that the scum tried to kill Vi before Vi claimed, when there's really no logical reason to assume that.

[Yosarian2]

I want you to claim in full. There's a specific set of potential circumstances that makes today lylo for town, and it's increasingly likely that we're in that specific set of circumstances.

No. I've claimed all of the information that could possibly be pertinent. All further information is not useful to town, and is useful to scum.

I respect this, actually, but a full claim from you might help us decide if we should lynch you today. Right now your role is seeming kind of improbable, and if you are telling the truth, the exact limitations of your role don't really matter if you get lynched.

[Yosarian2]

The fact that you're the second protective role in the game isn't really an argument against you; in fact, having a ton of kill-prevention roles kind of solves the "how could there be a mafia, a SK, and a vig in a mini" problem Vi was worrying about earlier; it's not nearly as crazy if the mod expects half of the kills to fail.

[Yosarian2]

Most likely scenario is that the visions are just a mechanic of the game, and that the visions are sent by the mod directly to a random player.

[Yosarian2]

Interesting, Nuwen. Ok, Shos is probably a survivor.

I'm...really running out of suspects here. Somebody's got to be scum, but I'm having a harder and harder time figuring out who that could be.

[Yosarian2]

Charter? Ok, why Charter?

[Yosarian2]

Hmm. I was assuming that he was the type of forensic investigator who gets the identitiy of a murderer by investigating a body, especally since he claimed "town information power role" before he died. If it's the other way, then you're right, that might mean two scum killing groups.

But then where are all the kills? I was seriously wondering if you and Vi were (godfather and sk), and had both tried to kill each other last night and failed, but short of something improbable like that, I'm having trouble understanding how there could be so many missing kills with just the power roles that we have claimed.

[Yosarian2]

On a side note, Nuwen, you really need to explain what your whole theory is, because it's not really making sense. It sounds like you're saying that charter is the last member of the mafia, but we know that's not true because charter was tracked on a night that there was a kill (and he also can't be a SK for the same reason). The only way charter could be scum is if there's a 2 man mafia still around and he's part of it, but you also seem to think that there is also a SK, and a 3 man mafia + a SK seems unlikely, not to mention that there seem to be too many mostly-confirmed town for that to really be practical at this point.

It would also help if you stopped being quite so mysterious and explain what that "raise your hand when you spot it" is.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, is there anything to your role besides being a 1-shot vig who gets more shots if you hit scum?

It was worded as a vig who loses my ability ("is suspended from duty") if I hit town, but that's it, yes. No other abilities.

[Yosarian2]

I really think we've wasted enough time chasing out tails here over stupid flavor red herrings that don't lead anywhere. If Nuwen can explain to me how she thinks charter could plausibly be scum here, I'm willing to listen. Otherwise, I think we just lynch either Magna or Nuwen today. I'm having some doubts about both of them because of their claims, but honestly everyone in this game has a good claim right now; I'm coming to the conclusion we should just ignore that and lynch someone who seems scummy.

[Yosarian2]

The only way charter could be scum is if there's a 2 man mafia still around and he's part of it, but you also seem to think that there is also a SK,

and a 3 man mafia + a SK seems unlikely

, not to mention that there seem to be too many mostly-confirmed town for that to really be practical at this point.

Why is this?

Mostly because it seems really unlikely that there are that many bad guys left in the game. Plus, if Shos is not a SK, then that would mean 3 mafia + SK + Survivor, which is just crazy. No; I think we're just dealing with (2 mafia) or (1 mafia + 1 SK) at this point. Which is why Nuwen's push for charter seems so bizzare to me; she believes Shos is a survivor, she is convinced there is a SK, and yet she's voting for charter, even though there's basically no way that he could be scum if there is both a SK and a Survivor in this game.

[Yosarian2]

I reread Furcolow and two major things stood out:

1.

I'm a Detective.

Zar is a Tracker. Don't hammer.

Yes, Furcolow seemed like an idiot but holy shit is this just plain claiming scum. Have to ask

why

these words were chosen here:

• No daytalk - this was my original assumption. Furcthing is communicating N1 information to his buddy. If we close the book there,
  we never wonder who Furc could be communicating with OUTSIDE of his scumteam.
  
  
  
• "Zar is a tracker. Don't hammer." - this sounds very much like a barter-plea for life, posed to either a third party or (
  more likely
  ) a second scum team. Maybe this was also a test for
  Zar's
  alignment. Furc and his buddy could have decided to out the tracker on the way down - if Zar took shots from a second scum team/SK, then Furc's team would absolutely know Zar is town.
  
  A corollary: Zar living would imply he's aligned with bullet-shooters, especially after protective roles are dead. (There is one claimed protective role alive: Magua -> Charter N2, 2 kills; Magua -> Zar N3, 0 kills)
  
  Basically I'm reading this as either "I know Zar is
  your tracker
  . Don't hammer."
  OR
  "Zar is a town tracker. Don't hammer and we can work together today." Either way, this line was NOT addressed to town players and I don't think it's clumsy enough to be in-thread communication with his buddy.
  
  
• Multiball
  - they must know about each other by now. The non-Furcolow team would definitely know. The Furc-team would probably suspect an SK for awhile, unless both teams were informed of a multiball in role PMs or by flavor we've glossed over.

It feels like you're reading WAY too much into this.

Assume he's a scum rolecop who is about to get lynched. His goals are 1: to come up with some kind of claim that might prevent his lynch; 2: to confirm that claim to make it stronger; and 3: to tell his buddies about his result.

When a person is in trouble, it's incredibly common for them to claim part of their own role, especially if they can confirm it. As Jeep once said, on some level everyone really wants to tell you what their role is.

Or, perhaps you're right and he was the scum roleblocker and his buddy was the scum rolecop. It still makes sense to claim rolecop if he can confirm that role using his buddy's information. It's not like rolecops are always scum, even if newbie-game-meta-leakage is starting to make that more common.

Multiball seems pretty doubtful at this point, and really nothing you've said in that post makes me think otherwise. It really just sounds like you're chasing your tail here, and reading way to much into incredibly fuzzy things.

There's also the possibility of a 3 man scum team+SK. I don't think is as absurd as Yos says it is, especially with the duplicate town protective roles.

Someone call me crazy.

When it comes to balancing a game, I usually consider a survivor to be a scum role in terms of numbers, because it basically is. 3 scum + Sk + Survivor or 2 scum + 2 scum + survivor would be a *lot* of scum; 5 scum in a 13 player game is kind of crazy, it basically means town has to lynch right every night and then it still can lose. (Bulletproof survivor is even less likely, since it reduce the chance of crosskills in a setup where town badly needs them). And, yeah, we have a lot of protective roles, but the info roles seem pretty limited.

(shrug) By himself, I actually do agree charter looks kind of iffy here. It's just the track that's making me think that him being scum is fairly unlikely.