New York 185: Freshwater Frenzy!
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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In post 44, SilverWolf wrote:LOL-I don't want to know if he is or isn't. TMI
*puts hands over eyes, runs from thread*
Get back here!
Oh, actually, I have to go for a bit myself.
Never mind!"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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In post 69, Prolapsed Brain wrote:Can someone please explain all this SilverWolf love, please? Thanks.
The awesomeness of SilverWolf must be experienced firsthand.
Fortunately, you have this opportunity. Make the most of it.
I'm happy to be in a game with you, Cheetory!"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Okay, I want to make a statement on behalf of myself and a few other people.
This game started last night. LAST NIGHT.
Some of us have full-time jobs at which we must at least pretend to work or otherwise look busy for extended periods during the day. This process can be exhausting. Sometimes we just come home and pretend to sleep for about 12 hours to prepare for our busy day of looking busy the next day.
Calling people lurkers because they don't post overnight or during part of the work day is NOT COOL. If you produce 13 pages of content over the course of one evening and a part of the next day, I'm darn sure going to read it, but it's going to take me some time because I am at work and I do not have unlimited free time to catch up to that degree.
So PLEASE cut it out.
I don't see the case on House, primarily because of what I just said. I have no idea what his schedule is like and it hasn't even been a day since the game opened.
I think Cheetory is town. Titus too, though I would not likely lynch her today even if I wasn't already town reading her because of general respect I have for a particular scumhunting technique she uses.
Leaning town on SilverWolf at the moment.
With two scum teams in play and a suspected SK, I could easily see Ozgin as scum trying to ensure that everyone knows he's a CITIZEN and not a Scummity-Scum-SCUM. It's odd. I don't get it.
Varsoon reaching out to me feels town, but he may know me well enough to know that, omg WIFOM! No, I do think he's town for the moment, but I want to reiterate: I SLEEP AT NIGHT. I WORK DURING THE DAY. Please don't start whining about my participation level before a full day has passed or I'll get VERY GROUCHY.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Sure.
Cheetory is actively engaging with people and pushing suspicions in a way that feels organic. While this could be a product of scum-vs-scum in this game, it doesn't feel like that to me.
Titus is addressing the game in ways I've seen her do as town. This doesn't prove anything for anyone else (though it gives me warm fuzzies toward her) but as I said I wouldn't lynch her anyway because she's way more effective with a flip or two to analyse. I am more than willing to give her the benefit of the doubt based on her play and accuracy in other games I've played with her."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Okay, first off:
UNVOTE:
I thought I'd done this before, but apparently not.
VOTE: Ozgin
I don't like the Citizen thing. It looks like a faked townslip, and I've seen some weird attempts to redirect attention elsewhere. I've also got my eye on Dragonspawn and Taly in relation to that, but these are associatives and I don't want to rely on them without a flip.
Mild read of RadiantCowbells as town, just based on the weird entrance with the self-vote and the seemingly random vote and switch. I see no reason for scum of any stripe to draw that kind of attention to themselves this early on. Actually, ever."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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I think I'm inclined to let House pursue his own interests. I can see why you think it's more interesting, but I don't."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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In post 513, Egg wrote:That's not the point though, or at least not my point. I'm not taking it as a VT claim. I'm wondering why we should believe it's a coincidence that you used the same uncommon phrase for it as the sample PM uses and then used it repeatedly.
This.
Also, Titus, I buy that Ozgin is scum. But we need to figure out associations while there's still time in the day."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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In post 526, Titus wrote:A bird in the hand is worth two in the bushes. By regaining Ozgin, we find his buddies. But even the culturally is not that simple, scum may not want to crossover for several reasons. You find scum. You lynch them.
Voting off Ozgin relieves the pressure to do something else
We are literally less than two days into this game.
Quicklynching someone Day One is not a good plan. We have time."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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I said I had a theory. When Ozgin's wagon really took off, both Taly and Dragonspawn were looking weird about it. What I think I know is that with two scum teams (We'll call them Thugs and Hoodlums, for clarity's sake):
The Thugs are going to try to protect Thugs and attack anyone they think might be Hoodlums or townies.
The Hoodlums are going to try to protect Hoodlums and attack anyone they think might be Thugs or townies.
But neither side can be really obvious about that. So they need to redirect, attack people who are attacking their team, whatever.
I got bad vibes from Taly and Dragonspawn about Ozgin's wagon. Taly's attitude is probably a bit more suspect than Dragon's right now, but both are pinging me. I don't know for sure that they are scum, but I wanted to let my vote marinate for a bit before I said anything outright.
That was my theory. I mentioned it before obliquely, but nothing has happened to dissuade me from it so far."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Well, I saw Mad Max and it was truly awesome. I want to see it again!
In other news, I AM in a neighbourhood with Dragonspawn and House. I felt (and others can express what they thought) that he was using the neighbourhood as a venue for testing the waters and trying out things before pushing his suspicions in the main thread. I've been a little reticent to use the hood as a discussion forum because I think it likely there are scum in it.
As for the Taly-Dragonspawn-Ozgin link, both of the first two seemed pretty wishy-washy on the Ozgin issue and I wanted to see how things played out. My initial vote on Dragon was essentially because House asked me to in the hood (not just me, but I was willing). The reactions haven't made me more comfortable with Taly either.
@Taly: What questions of yours have I missed, please?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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I have a rock-solid townread on Titus by this point. She definitely tunnels as town and I see that here with no hesitation or backing off whatsoever.
Despite his fluctuating read on me, I'm pretty confident in House town based both on his actions here and in the hood thread. I don't see him directly interacting with me in the ways that he has if he were scum. I'm not AS confident here, but I'm pretty sure.
Egg is a strong townread too.
I don't care what Boonskiies and Dragonspawn are softing. I've never seen Boon this engaged, so I'm going to hold off judgment on him until later, but Dragon was legitimately pretty suspicious in the hood.
Ozgin is misrepping a bit. Both Taly and Dragon were looking elsewhere and being pretty noncommittal about Ozgin-scum or Ozgin-town for a while -- Taly was worse about it, but I had both the thread and the hood as evidence about Dragon. It looked like to me that they were both trying to deflect from the Ozgin wagon without actually taking a direct stand on it. It's not the wishy-washiness in general, it's the specific noncommittal way they addressed the Ozgin wagon that was bothering me.
I like Anen and I think he's town here (these are not correlating statements, but they are both true). Same with SilverWolf. These aren't the townreads to last the ages, but they're good enough for now.
Ozgin continues to be suspicious because imo he's trying to say that he's being caught for the wrong reasons by some people and for the right ones by others. This is a type of parsing I rarely see from town playing to a town wincon. It smacks of survivalism, something I don't think is out of character for Ozgin as town, but it's much more measured and less direct than my most recent experience of that from him."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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In post 989, Titus wrote:@Bookitty, can you go into more detail about your right and wrong reasons on Ozgin?
Yes, but it will be later this afternoon; I'm going into a meeting in nine minutes. :p"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Okay, the brouhaha begins with this:
In post 102, Ozgin wrote:Do you not realize how hard it's going to be for me not to be able to laugh and have fun at night with you in a QT? Being a citizen is lonely ;_;
Ozgin really likes this; he even quotes himself a couple of paragraphs later in the same post, something I've never seen anyone do before. It's worth noting that this was during what looks to be a reachout to former scumbuddies SilverWolf and Cheetory.
Here's a link to Taly (since I'm doing this, I'm going to do it comprehensively):
In post 111, Ozgin wrote:Also, I feel like Taly is over-analyzing, kinda digging for evidence that might not be there. Does anyone know if this is normal per his meta?
It LOOKS like it's an accusation, but it's actually not. He's accusing Taly of scumhunting too much.
In post 185, Ozgin wrote:I'm going to bed, I'll be back tomorrow.
This game is heating up, and I kinda like it. This is the most excited I've been ever to play a normal game as a citizen.
Here we reach critical mass on the citizen thing. I said in the neighbourhood that I thought it was as if Ozgin wanted to fake a townslip. I don't see a reason to stick to this wording over and over unless you've 1) studied your role PM extensively, which I don't see a reason for a VT to do, or 2) you've studied the sample role PM extensively, which I don't see a reason for a townie to do.
In post 201, Ozgin wrote:As far as Titus' vote on me, her feelings seem to be hurt. . Whatever, I don't have time for crying over rhetoric, I have to go to bed so I can scumhunt while I'm awake tomorrow.
This is an attempt to discredit and dismiss what seem like pretty rational suspicions, imo at least.
In post 203, Ozgin wrote:@SilverWolf - Does it matter that I'm "claiming" Citizen? Even if I were a town PR, I sure as hell wouldn't out as such. Citizen is my way of claiming that I'm town, if that's what you're asking.
This is terrible. It's like he read the sample role PM and then didn't understand it. It doesn't give me faith that he's town in ANY WAY.
Now to what Titus actually asked me for:
Post 309 is practically an explanation in itself.
Varsoon's reasons are bad:
In post 309, Ozgin wrote:I just picked Varsoon out because I didn't like his "reason." You weren't open about your reads, and you're highlighted in my excel sheet (not the same way Varsoon is, but still highlighted) so you're not free of scrutiny yourself, but your reactions and action as a player have pinged you as more town than Varsoon in my opinion.
Cheetory's reasons are good:
In post 309, Ozgin wrote:I like Cheetory's push on me, as well. He's seemingly fair and level-headed about it.
Titus's reasons are bad:
In post 503, Ozgin wrote:The one, half substantial point you have on me is my misuse of the term "Citizen," and if you can't get over that then I'm just going to fucking ignore you. I'm not arguing the citizen point anymore. Oh, and don't try to say I followed a pattern in a game you didn't follow, unless you want to keep being pathetic and misrepping me. Oh wait, that's your thing this game, isn't it dear?
TSO's reasons are good:
In post 503, Ozgin wrote:TSO is probably just trying to add pressure to me. I just don't get that there's a fucking wagon on me based on my "misuse" of terminology.
Egg joins the fray:
In post 654, Ozgin wrote:@Egg - I gather your point on me is the whole, "It's weird I said citizen, I say it means I'm "town" but the first post says "Citizen," therefore I read the OP."
Well of course I read the OP, Wake asked us to do so at least twice.
Now things start switching up:
In post 806, Ozgin wrote:I think Titus is misguided on my wagon. I think she's pretty towny, she just has no idea what the hell she's talking about right now.
I didn't quote all the insults, but there were plenty directed at someone he now thinks is just misguided.
In post 806, Ozgin wrote:I feel like bookitty is kinda scummy for following her mindlessly, and her re-vote back onto me makes no sense.
I'm scummy for following Titus's logic, while she is just misguided.
In post 806, Ozgin wrote:TSO not giving any reason for voting me is strange, as well (other than him cringing at my posts).
What makes a man turn to a life of neutrality?
In post 806, Ozgin wrote:Varsoon is lurching towards null/town territory again. I don't like his playstyle, it conflicts with mine greatly, but I'm starting to doubt it's as anti-town as I thought.
Varsoon, you magnificent bastard, you might not be scum after all!
And here's the icing on the cake:
In post 806, Ozgin wrote:My flaily and aggressive response is what's being read as scummy, and I guess I understand that. I lost my cool, and I guess that makes me kinda stupid/childish. I can't really argue that (I'm assuming that's what TSO/Anen are scumreading me for), but for those who are voting me because I said citizen, I think you need to really re-evaluate your read on me. If you wanna lynch me for my overblown reaction, that's fine, that's entirely my fault. But if you think my reaction was town-like aggression, then I don't think you should lynch me.
This dichotomy isn't really a thing. Ozgin's play is the sum total of his play, and people who were suspicious of him for the reiterated Citizen thing (which really does look like a "hey, look at me, I'm obviously town, see my townslip, dammit, look at it!) can continue being suspicious for the over-the-top overreaction to their initial suspicions. The recent drastic change in tone and reads (they might be town after all, and there are good reasons for thinking I'm scummy, but some of those folks are scum on my wagon!) is not filling my heart with visions of puppies and kittens and baby birds, either.
I will say with some degree of confidence that there almost certainly is scum on Ozgin's wagon. That's the nature of multiball. I think he's placating some of the people on that wagon and his responses seem somewhat off given his fury and insult levels earlier on. It's like he realised he was not getting anywhere with the stick, so he now has some delicious candied carrots to share around. I'm sure they aren't poisoned. Well, pretty sure."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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In post 1012, Ozgin wrote:No, I understand exactly what a Citizen/Vanilla Townie is. I'm saying what I meant by what I said. It's my dialect.
Can you please point me in the direction of other games in which you have used this term, which you claim to be YOUR dialect?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Can you link me to one of the games on EpicMafia, please?
I'd be very grateful.
As for the rest of your post, it's essentially just you saying, No it's not, no I'm not, and there's no point in addressing that without verifying what you're saying about your dialect for myself. I've played with you before, you didn't use the term, so I'm curious to know why you're using it in this game and not in all games here since you're claiming it as your dialect."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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For those curious, the game is Delicious Mafia and Ozgin doesn't use his dialect once."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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In post 1016, Aneninen wrote:Bookitty: Ozgin's life is now in Varsoon's hands. Read the thread.
I get that, but I prefer to pursue my own suspicions. I think Varsoon is town, but since the Citizen=vanilla townie is explicitly referred to in Wake's initial post, Ozgin's half-knowledge of flavour is really suspicious.
If he were actually a VT, he would know he was claiming VT. But Ozgin seems not to know that.
If it were a dialect he commonly used, why wasn't it used in the prior game I played with him?
Why specifically in THIS game where citizen actually denotes a specific role?
In post 1018, Ozgin wrote:I use Citizen when I play (much shorter) games of Mafia on EpicMafia to say town, unless Citizen is actually a role in the game I'm playing on EpicMafia.
If he were a Citizen, then he would know that it was actually a role. If he's using it generically as a synonym for Town, why is he choosing to do so in THIS game where it denotes a specific role (when he claims he doesn't do that on EM) and not in the other game I played with him?
It doesn't add up."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Varsoon, you know that the Vanilla Townie=Citizen thing is also in the first post, right?
At one point you say that isn't so (I'm tired right now, but I'll quote it for you if you need) but it IS so. It's all there in Wake's first post. If you're basing your theory of Ozgin-town on that, you need to rethink it."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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In post 1070, Taly wrote:I was just asking you a question on why you didn't think Dragon was scum, since you've never given a major reason why you think Dragon is town other than stating that he is your friend from all I've seen.
You can't see it, but I just slammed my head into my desk. Now my desk has a big head-shaped dent in it. Why do you hate my desk?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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In post 907, Varsoon wrote:My point was that Ozgin, as scum, would only have the OP as a resource for flavor without explicit knowledge that 'Citizen' entailed only VT meaning
This is where the point of confusion comes in, because it's not true. I haven't been able to follow your logic at all points, so I was asking for clarification.
I addressed why I don't believe that citizen is a dialect thing and I've asked Ozgin for an example from EpicMafia. No answer yet. I'm thinking I'll sign up anyway and search for myself.
Is your ability to clear Ozgin only limited to Ozgin? Could it be used on anyone else?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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In post 315, Bookitty wrote:Titus is addressing the game in ways I've seen her do as town. This doesn't prove anything for anyone else (though it gives me warm fuzzies toward her) but as I said I wouldn't lynch her anyway because she's way more effective with a flip or two to analyse. I am more than willing to give her the benefit of the doubt based on her play and accuracy in other games I've played with her.
I've actually explained my townread on Titus. She does tunnel as part of her playstyle, so that's null either way. Please stop misrepping my reasons for townreading her."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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In post 1116, Ozgin wrote:I'm just going to fucking concede and claim Citizen, I don't give a fuck about it at this point. I was expressing my loneliness as a citizen because I have no powerrole and I'm not in a neighborhood, and it's kinda lonely because there are multiple hoods, multiple scum teams, and a third party, and I'm literally entirely solo (where most of you guys have places out-of-thread to discuss things and such).
1. What was the nonsense about a dialect, then? It's certainly not one you can provide any proof regarding and there's evidence countering it.
2. I believe I'm echoing Titus's question: How did you know there were hoods at the point that you posted your loneliness?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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In post 1012, Ozgin wrote:Bookitty said:
Ozgin really likes this; he even quotes himself a couple of paragraphs later in the same post, something I've never seen anyone do before. It's worth noting that this was during what looks to be a reachout to former scumbuddies SilverWolf and Cheetory.
A reachout to my former scumbuddies, are you shitting me? SilverWolf has scumread me most of this game and I expressed my distrust for Cheetory early in this game.
Ozgin was pretty vehement in responding that it wasn't a reach-out to you guys when I characterised it that way."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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A reachout is not the same as buddying. If I'd meant to say the latter, I would have. Ozgin has overreacted like this to practically EVERYTHING anyone has said, first vehemently denying it, then saying it's true. Read his ISO, Cheetory. Titus was worth insulting horribly and dismissing as an emotional player but he thinks she's town.
Seriously, read it over."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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In post 1139, Cheetory6 wrote:@boo, why is thinking someone is wrong/playing badly and town a scummy thing for Ozgin to do?
It's not that.
Ozgin used every tactic in the book to discredit and dismiss Titus. He called her emotional, he was aggressive toward her, he dismissed her arguments and refused to address them. Yet he claims to think she is town.
He addressed my arguments rationally, apologised if I thought he misrepped me, and generally treated me with kid gloves. But he claims to think I'm scum.
So explain to me why he's trashing someone he thinks is town while treating someone he thinks is scum so much more nicely?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Cheetory, you're not filling me with confidence regarding your alignment when you're defending Ozgin without having actually looked at his reasoning for his reads. That's bad. You know that, right?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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I am accustomed to the way Titus is pushing her Ozgin vote. I've played with her a few times before.
Ozgin is saying that it's okay to be suspicious of him for the way he overreacted, but not okay to be suspicious of him for the Citizen thing to which he overreacted. His reads seem nearly random in how he divides up who is okay for suspecting him and who is suspicious for suspecting him. The entire sum total of it looks like a desperate attempt to salvage a bad situation.
So yeah, I'm a-okay with Titus playing the way she plays. That goes for everybody else too. She's putting herself on the line for her reads; that's a lot more townie than just sitting on the sidelines critiquing things. (No, that's not meant for you, Cheetory, because you're not on the sidelines anymore.)"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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In post 1154, Cheetory6 wrote:Why would he need to fake any of his reads in multiball though?
Please tell me this is not a serious question."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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In post 1158, Cheetory6 wrote:Boo I feel like you're picking at the baddest angles on what I'm saying here.
Are you looking for an excuse to scumread me, or what?
I'm trying to figure out your motivations.
If I said to you (not in so many words) that I hadn't really read over the person I was hard-defending, you would be a little twitchy, right?
I'll wait for you to read it over, but I think it's fair to be twitchy about someone who you had as a townread but who is defending someone else basically blind on the back of a not-very-well-explained townping."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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In post 1170, Cheetory6 wrote:And Boo's slinging shit at me for not even trying to understand what I'm saying in the big picture and then basically insinuating that I'm scummy or an idiot, idc which, she's being unfair in either categorization.
I have done none of this. Can you point me to the posts in which you feel I have?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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In post 1186, Egg wrote:Isn't best friend just "You know X is town. They know you are town"? Or am I misunderstanding that?
That's how I have seen those roles, anyway."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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In post 1020, Bookitty wrote:For those curious, the game is Delicious Mafia and Ozgin doesn't use his dialect once.
I already linked this game."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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I don't have a scumread on you, Varsoon. I don't know just why you'd think so. (Hint: if you can point to what makes you think so, I'd be grateful.)
Also, if you're soft claiming what I think you're soft claiming, it doesn't clear him. Think about it.
I did not think you were buddying me, which I think connotes scum; I thought you were reaching out to me based on past experience, which is alignment-neutral.
I'm good with a Lala lynch but I'm sticking with my Ozgin suspicions.
I have some pretty strong townreads but I'm not interested in sharing them right now because I prefer cross-kills if at all possible."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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@Silverwolf:
From my perspective, the lalaladucks wagon sprang up as a counter to the Ozgin wagon. I like the Ozgin wagon. It has big shiny wheels and it's bright red and says scum on the side.
Now, lalala could be scum on the other side, I guess, but her wagon doesn't feel organic but really like a response to an Ozgin-scum wagon that people don't want to go through. The resistance to the OZGIN wagon is the interesting thing imo; people are jumping out of the woodwork and saying things like "I guess Ozgin could be scum, but look, LOOK, a shiny new wagon of a different color!" and I'm happy with the wagon I'm pushing right now.
Maybe it's all in perspective, but the counterwagons that keep being proposed just make Ozgin look even more like a sure thing to me."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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<3 House. I still think that if you read Ozgin's ISO and really look at the contradictions and varying explanations he's given, you would see things my way."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Well, I didn't write that, so it's incorrect in the first place.
I think that it's a little different than that. The most likely scenario to ME is that Ozgin saw the initial role PM and thought, hey, I can earn some towncred by "townslipping" and saying Citizen instead of town. Then people will read me as town because I accidentally used the term Citizen instead of town. But then he says that he meant it as town-alignment, not specifically VT. The same rules post that had the role PM also mentioned that Citizen=VT, but he didn't seem to know that until it was pointed out that Citizen DID = VT. If he was actually a Citizen, then he would know that, I would think.
So then he tries to say it's something he always says. But it's not. It's not something he's done before on this site and it's not something he can point to on any other site.
The shifting explanations and the forced nature (and repetition) of the citizen thing when he's never used that term for town before is scummier than anything else anyone has done imo."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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In post 1478, Cheetory6 wrote:The timing of it just isn't even valuable to scum as a faketownslip though?
How do you figure?
I don't think Ozgin thought it would get him the attention it did, no, but developing towncred is always valuable, isn't it?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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No, you're missing a point.
I don't think Ozgin at ALL knew he was claiming VT. I don't think he read that at all when he came up with the "I'll use citizen and then it will be perceived as a townslip" thing. His later play bears that out; he denied being a VT, remember?
I think he read the sample role PM, misunderstood it and made his fake "townslip" which then got him into all kinds of hot water and resulted in several different stories (if it's his dialect, surely he USES his dialect, otherwise why would it BE his dialect?) about the situation.
I don't think he was playing for attention. But I ask you: If Ozgin were a Citizen, wouldn't he know that that meant VT? If he's not a Citizen, why would he use it to describe himself and then lie about it to us later?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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In post 1484, Cheetory6 wrote:Ozgin was just in a game where VTs were called Citizen.
Again, why is he not actual VT who realizes he fucked up by claiming VT and is trying to backtrack to make it seem like he didn't just narrow scumkills?
First, link me up.
Second, if that's the case, why wouldn't he DOUBLY know he was claiming VT?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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@Cheetory: Do you think that Ozgin knew that Citizen referred to a specific role here when he made his claims?
If he did, then why would he make that claim and then back off it and try to disavow it?
If he didn't, then where did he come up with the Citizen thing in the first place? He was scum in the game you linked and never used the term once. This is the first verifiable use of something he called his dialect.
Also, if he didn't, then do you think he read his role PM?
These things are inconsistent. I feel like it's obvious that they are."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Then why lie (and yes, he lied) to us when he realised his mistake, Cheetory? Lying IS alignment-indicative, regardless of whether we still enforce lynch all liars or not.
Why claim it's a dialect he always uses when he didn't even use it in the game you linked?
Have you ever been in a game in which scum fake town-slipped, Cheetory? Why do you think they did it?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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In post 1497, Cheetory6 wrote:I'd appreciate it if people could give me the botd enough to at least consider where I'm coming from.
I don't see what you're getting at here. I think you're wrong, but how am I not giving you the benefit of the doubt? Arguing with you IS giving you the benefit of the doubt; if I thought you were scum, why would I bother?
@Silverwolf: A lynch is out of the question? That would settle it, wouldn't it?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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@cheetory: Okay, I'll line it out for you as clearly as I can and then you can return the favour.
1. Ozgin makes an awkward and repeated reference (I remember three times distinctly, two in the first post) to himself as a Citizen. It's not something he has done before when I played with him and it's not something he's done anywhere before that he can show. I even asked for links to another site (which would have been annoying to register, all that) just to try to verify this. He says it's unverifiable anywhere even though it's supposedly his dialect.
2. Citizens in this game are VT. Ozgin claims he was using it as town-alignment. He would know that it meant VT if he read his role PM. The bit about VT=Citizen is not right with the sample PM, it's in the rules. Ozgin said he read the rules several times asrequired by scripturerequested by the Mod. So if that part is true, then he read the part about Citizen=VT several times. Since he's now claimed VT, he ought to have known that from his own Role PM as well.
3. I think that he looked at the role PM given as a town sample, didn't read the rules very carefully and tried for a fake townslip. In my experience, fake townslips ONLY work if they happen when no pressure is on. They have to be "discovered" to be effective. This is equally true of real townslips.
4. He then attacks Titus for noticing it (and the inconsistency). His tone is amazingly uneven and not what I would expect of a townie who "knows he fucked up." Instead, it's aggressive and frankly pretty nasty. He still doesn't seem to know that VT=Citizen, even though I would have checked my role PM like five times by that point. Wouldn't you?
5. I think you're projecting about how YOU would feel and not reading what Ozgin actually said. I think he's scum and I think reading his ISO (and contextual things) will demonstrate that much more effectively than I can.
Your turn."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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In post 1507, Varsoon wrote:@Bookitty: Lying isn't alignment indicative. I lie all the time as both aligns. Sometimes a good lie can win the game as either alignment. :l
Lies are great. Lies are important. People that wanna lynch all liars wanna take the fun out of the game.
Because we could play a game where no one posts and all we do is vote and use our powers.
But that'd suck.
I don't lie as town. Are you implying that I take the fun out of games by not gambitting or outright lying?
Also, if it was a basic part of his dialect, shouldn't Ozgin be able to present at least one instance of using citizen outside this game? He didn't even do it in a game in which citizen meant VT the same way it does here. Not once. Not one solitary time. You don't get to call something part of your dialect if you NEVER SAY IT. You just don't."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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In post 1510, Varsoon wrote:I actually think you're really fun, Boo. But please don't take lying and rhetoric away from me. There's a lot of people who want that, and this is all I have, Bookitty. This is all I've done with my life.
I <3 you, and you know it. But I hate it when you lie to me
SRSLY, though, I asked Ozgin to provide me with ANY evidence of the citizen thing. He said they were only on chat games that are not recorded. He couldn't provide me with any example outside this game at all. Cheetory gave me a game in which VTs were called citizen, but Ozgin never used the term. I played a game with Ozgin and he never used the term. I did the due diligence on the dialect thing, and it looks to be false.
What's the town motivation for lying and saying you make a habit of something when clearly you don't?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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In post 1528, Taly wrote:Also preferably, can we have Ozgin post at least 1 more time before he is hammered?
This isn't really up to us. He's been hanging back and letting other people defend him for a while."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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In post 1606, Aneninen wrote:– there's another Neighbourhood which consists of House, DragonSpawn, Bookitty, ? who was the other two here?
Kitz and Egg."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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In post 1624, Boonskiies wrote:Also, Taly. Don't forget about Taly.
This more. I don't have Lalala as town but Taly is more scum to me."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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In post 1627, Titus wrote:@Boonskiies, it's because House always does it. When someone always gambits, it's hard to trust their results.
Kitz, "Wat" reaction to getting an innocent was Ozgin level bad. Ask yourself this.
Why would Kitz doubt a cop getting an innocent on her? But say next to nothing about the original claim.
Yeah. And I was developing such a lovely townread on her"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Most definitely. Especially if Ozgin flips scum, which I think will happen.
I have to commute home now but I'll be on later if the thread is still open."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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I am not caught up yet after the invasion of the relatives, but I will probably vote Kitz based on YesterDay once I've read; that will be this afternoon, I think."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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