Mini Normal 2277 - Frog Images (Game Over)

[schadd_]

ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba!!! im a 1000,0000 shot tracker baby!!!!!!!!

[schadd_]

Hello all!!!!

[schadd_]

why am i a freakin sheep. yeah i have a cat and like them

[schadd_]

VOTE: eiralox

[schadd_]

yeah

[schadd_]

Kinda surprised no one called out my "hmmm..." post as suspicious.

Anyways, VOTE: Galron. This is a non-RVS vote.

I don't see the "hmmm..." post as suspicious, but the post telling us how suspicious it was isn't doing you any favors.

Unvote, Vote: Seanzie

do you figure that they felt they made a scummy post and wanted to pre empt it or something

[schadd_]

was somebody supposed to tell you it was scummy? what was your plan in that case

[schadd_]

ok

[schadd_]

ooh i also like when galron does something

[schadd_]

gam emmy as long as were here: if your signature is about speakers then sure. if youre telling me i should turn my headphones down: No

[schadd_]

Anyway we got like 5-6 pages to yeet Galron in order to get a faster scum yeet than in Tarot uPick

are you like bussing or something

[schadd_]

VC here later

Ugh damn you Crescent

what you do is delete the bump post (before you mess up anybodys quote numbers)

[schadd_]

Seanzie's play outside of that does appear to be actual scumhunting

i agree

[schadd_]

have you played with galron

[schadd_]

uh well i was wondering what mala's basis was for the push

[schadd_]

uh well i was wondering what mala's basis was for the push

Fair enough but to me it's apparent she's sheeping gamma. It's kind of what she does iirc.

i guess thats really not apparent to me

[schadd_]

i could vote gal

[schadd_]

i do also think eiralox is a wolf, who i'm voting rn

[schadd_]

umm they really didnt do any scumhunting

[schadd_]

well i mostly mean in the sense that their posts dont have like initiative / curiousness about ppls alignments, which i think you would look for on any site. although to give something only partially related, i've noticed for a long time while modding that scum are generally pretty significantly lower in the post count numbers

[schadd_]

i think i dont like to mess around with "experienced people shouldnt make those mistakes" kind of reasoning very much because like people can have a lapse in judgement, or be too confident, or just be bad and say wolfy tbings. idk how its gonna go for me when i roll my first scum game since uh, 2018?

id say eiralox falls into a bin of medium post count low content. i havent seen them or played with them

[schadd_]

lol i warn u not to push me, i can get like a badger.

ugggggggffhhhhh

[schadd_]

Crescent, please read and see that I addressed my wake-up post at schadd_ specifically, who mentioned my inactivity before you did

id say eiralox falls into a bin of medium post count low content.

[schadd_]

t3 entrance a little bit towny

I've never seen Gamma play with this kind of sustained bloodlust before and it's jarring to me.

Oddly though, it doesn't really scumping me. Gamma kinda doesn't strike me as the kind of scum player to try to murder off someone 3 pages into a game. Feel free to correct me if this is wrong, but this very much feels like town-tunnelvision to me. I constantly make associations the way Gamma currently is when I'm scumpinged on someone as hard as they seem to be on Galron.

had kinda the same thought but i'm less willing to read town into it. was really weirded out by her being so fired up abt galron. well i guess thats just already what youre saying

[schadd_]

well, just by what i like to call "reverse poe" there kind of has to be somebody who had essentially that same reaction while being town. and maybe galron is a wolf.

[schadd_]

I'll give it maybe 75/25 odds right now.

do you mean like 75% odds scum

I give it decent odds that if he's scum, a scum is already voting him, and that it's most likely KT out of that group.

sounds good

[schadd_]

if you'd like I can dig deep into why this galron yeet is so important for me
that might help you understand my town pov better

ohhh its just like you think theyre not town or whatever. because of the posts

[schadd_]

probably not

[schadd_]

well i guess if youre telling the truth it requires a town pov!

[schadd_]

cool!

[schadd_]

red card's fun little re evaluation on crescent felt a little towny

[schadd_]

crescent looking real bad if galron flips scum

Catching up now. I doubt Galron gets eliminated here D1 if they're scum.

not without your help :)

what are your thoughts on crescent haschel?

kittytacky can I get some insight into your reads beyond galron?

Scummy string of posts

i did also think so

[schadd_]

i think i')l vote galrpn in like 3 days if it keeps being the same song & dance

[schadd_]

the thing about it is i have this sinking feeling that this is like a townie who is thinking of punishing everyone for voting a low content slot, or like otherwise proceeding out of spite. one does have to consider that openly refusing to budge on or really address the large amt of people voting them, but (just to articulate it for myself!) i do get the strong feeling that they're scum who doesn't know where to go from here, maybe thinks something like "once i start having to pretend to scumhunt everybody is gonna use terms like 'TMI' and 'fake' at me and its gonna suck so bad". galron if youre scum that is probably true yes. and then also you just vote out people who dont play mafia

[schadd_]

umm

does anybody have a reason to not townread t3 :T

[schadd_]

he hasnt even been using gifs in this game unless you mean the distracting avatar in which case alright

[schadd_]

honestly t3 is my first actual actual townread

cool!

[schadd_]

kittytacky is the kind of maf you wanna vote out last because his attempts to turn around on townreading the whole town are going to be hilarious

I'm not mafia so I'm not going to turn around on townreading anyone unless they scumslip.

do you agree that you usually do that when you're mafia

This weird pushing on me smells like a chainsaw defense of Galron NGL.

well if you're going to try to push the people pushing galron you'd have a lot of work to do

[schadd_]

was gonna bicker with the galron post a little bit but then saw they did a little bit of stuff yesterday that i seem to have not noticed

[schadd_]

I'm a little less confident about galron being scum after realizing he crumbed his role in his first post, idk if scum!Galron thinks to do that

i dont c what would make this true

[schadd_]

Just because Galron is true claiming doesn’t make him town. That’s a naive mindset.

Your face is a naive mindset.

um, so do you think the role makes galron town then

[schadd_]

yes, neighbors are supposed to be not alignment indicative at all & i'd agree with crescent's impression that mods very often want to include mafia neighbors when theres neighbors involved

[schadd_]

Oh and I don't see Kitty/Garlon being S/T based on like, pretty much everything Kitty has done. Scum rarely votes town with that kind of showmanship, and Kitty only got strongly defensive when paired as scum with Galron by multiple people, during which they accused someone of "chainsawing" or whatever and using Galron as an excuse to suspect them instead of suspecting Galron himself when it wasn't true.

id agree with this based on the small amt of insight i got from modding games with ktack

[schadd_]

ive never seen post 25 in my whole life. maybe i saw that first line and just immediately stopped processing it and cleared the memory

[schadd_]

You're right it's not alignment indicative. Gamma and I were in a game awhile ago where I was in a hood and gamma was a mafia backup neighbor, and actually there were two mafia backup neighbors I think -- gamma a little help? Completely suckered me.

maybe its a mafia indicative role then
//
oh

[schadd_]

ok then yeah what did that mala post even mean. no i haven't used backup neighbor seems like a silly role

[schadd_]

Also, bussing in this way is NOT something I do as scum.

you did kind of vote your partner and push him a bunch in the open

[schadd_]

(this one i mean)

[schadd_]

hello

[schadd_]

omegalul
I'm viewing myself and Malakittens as conftown for how Galron interacted w us

how did galron interact with you

[schadd_]

oh heavens youre in this game. any feelings about how day 1 went. did you notice the thing where galron died

[schadd_]

VOTE: eiralox

[schadd_]

VOTE: eiralox

Why are you voting Eiralox?

umm i didnt really stop thinking they were wolfy yesterday & i also thought their eod1 pop in was a bit of a performance

[schadd_]

What do you think about the Gamma/Seanzie interaction?

seanzie i've felt was town for a long time & it seemed like they had fully natural townie impulses that led them into the argument. gamma i don't know how i end up on; it seems like she is really convinced she ought to seem town from d1, which seems to drive her activity today, but knowing her it's pretty possible she ends up feeling that way while not being town. i still kind of don't get why she brought up the galron post in 514, like theres a baseline weirdness of quoting a specific post that (as far as you know) isn't relevant to what is going on. allow me to demonstrate:

mmmm VOTE: Eiralox

interesting vote ...

anyway it would make sense conceptually that she sees the claim and starts to iso galron about it, but in that case i think she would maybe say something to that effect when questioned about the post instead of just swatting it away as misrepresentative. anyway i don't really lend a lot of credence to this sort of thing in general but thats what im thinking. yes there's a pretty compelling amount of cross talk btwn her and galron that seems a bit unaligned, and i guess she pushed him a lot and stuff

[schadd_]

cardinals post count is quite high. cool!

[schadd_]

why would i have to accept that youre town on d1 of all days

[schadd_]

i guess i should say i continue to not really think the thing about the personal tells about galron holds a lot of water

[schadd_]

why would i have to accept that youre town on d1 of all days

You’re continuing to refuse to accept it even now tho :D

yeah i dont think its a sure bet. i dont know why you quoted day 1 posts

[schadd_]

you mean like thinking critically about a slot i had at that time no particular reason to believe was town

[schadd_]

soz

[schadd_]

i mean you have to admit that like there's no reason in particular for anybody to accept that you have to be town in order to make a simple statement "there was some tell that somebody in a different game had regarding galron and now i'm thinking about it this game". the fact that you seem to think so is compelling though. in fact in order to believe you're mafia this game one has to accept that you've made a boatload of simple but brazen statements that come in the form of "this thing is a surefire sign that i'm town" and i think those are generally things made by town. idk if you've shown that you do that as mafia, i don't think many people do

[schadd_]

you mean like thinking critically about a slot i had at that time no particular reason to believe was town

I find this assertion outlandish. You mean to tell me nothing in my play townpinged you?

i forget. probably not very strongly. the thing was that you were pushing really hard on somebody, which i tend to think is town, but you were doing it very loudly from a kind of scant basis

[schadd_]

i mean you have to admit that like there's no reason in particular for anybody to accept that you have to be town in order to make a simple statement "there was some tell that somebody in a different game had regarding galron and now i'm thinking about it this game". the fact that you seem to think so is compelling though. in fact in order to believe you're mafia this game one has to accept that you've made a boatload of simple but brazen statements that come in the form of "this thing is a surefire sign that i'm town" and i think those are generally things made by town. idk if you've shown that you do that as mafia, i don't think many people do

Oh my god bro
Galron WAS NOT in the game that I have been referencing. HOW THICK IS YOUR SKULL DUDE?

oh. uh i just didnt look at it. i guess i dont see how that changes anything.

[schadd_]

ok..?

[schadd_]

is there a component of that aside from this thing we're talking about where i'm not uncritically townreading you

[schadd_]

oh yeah as long as we're here do you remember, like, why you made post 514

[schadd_]

oh yeah as long as we're here do you remember, like, why you made post 514

Galron claimed he gave content in his first post, I questioned it

oic. yeah ok sorry thats a total nothing burger

[schadd_]

i guess my reasons for pushing them are all well and good

[schadd_]

the entirety of her evidence that the Galron wagon was emotionally driven is three posts made by one player back to back before the game had even reached 100 posts

i thought that was cool

[schadd_]

@Eiralox when do you become a badger? I seem to be your sole focus today, but I sure don't feel badgered.

once some1 pushes me for bullshit reasons bby

And if no one pushes you, you're just going to slank all game doing nothing?

lol

i guess my reasons for pushing them are all well and good

yeh do park ur vote on me again it was a very cozy hidey hole for u D1

i guess i don't feel like i had a dearth of action on d1. anyway, i would be interested to hear anybody explain why this person isn't extremely wolfy in the same way that galron was extremely wolfy . . .

I would like more clear stances from schadd rn tho

i am pretty comfortable that t3 and seanzie and town on the basis that they've simply kept trying to solve constantly. you i've talked about, cardinal seems to be town, i guess i'd say she's had pretty novel perspectives on the game often. mala seems to be town on the scant basis of galron & something je ne sais quois about how like comfortable she seems to be, but there's also really not a lot of reason to be surprised if she's mafia.

haschel hasn't really made me feel he is town. kiri giri is the same way, i thought the thing in 760 was interesting because it seemed like they were building the case based on some specific way they were remembering the day, which seems like a town thing except that there's not a lot left that's compelling there. enchant may be a wolf. i don't know how i land on kitty; i had the same thought that i did for gamma which is that their push on galron seemed too strong from the basis they had in a way that seemed like a bus. i thought 593 was interesting; i believe the statement in it is more or less false but if you were mafia noticing that connection maybe you'd want to say more to push against it. i guess i am fine with them being on this side of the poe line. and then i think eiralox is a wolf

[schadd_]

in particular i'd say eiralox feels a lot like how i'd play scum, especially when i wasn't feeling comfortable with it, which is just kind of placing down statements in a vacuum and hoping to avoid having to follow up on them or talk about them in context. the thing with 826 and 836 is a lot like that, like theoretically there is truth to the first statement that they go badger mode (maybe when they are town!) but when people pressed them to talk about how it might apply in reality to this game they pretty clearly seemed to just duck the question

[schadd_]

i guess a lot of their posting seems to try to insulate against anyone following up on them and/or them being obligated to follow up on much of what they say

[schadd_]

i mean its as simple as, you dont expect somebody to push somebody super hard if they don't have a good reason to believe they're mafia, and it's hard to get such a good reason on the basis of like 6 posts around game start. somebody thats mafia knows how the person is going to flip, maybe they think they get towncred in proportion to how strongly they pushed them. i dont have anything in mind that goes deeper than that really

[schadd_]

all of these words you're saying seem oriented towards epically owning me for the way i'm voting you and not towards trying to parse through what anybody's alignment is. this thing where you're talking about how i acting towards galron d1, i don't know why you'd bring that up because apparently it doesn't lead to you scumreading me, just apparently that it means i'm bad at voting or something. yes i'd be happy for you to end up at e-2.

i guess i'm not convinced that you have low levels of giving a fuck, except about what people's alignments are

[@ eiralox post]

[schadd_]

sorry that your offer to townread me didnt work

[schadd_]

i believe it has happened to me that i was having a back and forth with somebody who was mafia, and they were like "ok i do see the possibility that you are town here..." and then i was like "ok i am gonna keep voting you" and so they dropped that line of inquiry.

anyway, do you think i'm mafia or what. ok that answers my question

[schadd_]

I'm a PR and that's why I played shiftily.

what did you do to play shiftily?

[schadd_]

if there aint at least one scum in Kitty, DetectiveGiri or Schadd_ I'll eat a hat.

@Kitty and @Giri expect something from me soon. i don't wanna vot Kitty rn cos thats a very hot wagon, so what i'll do is i'll start my case with these 2. expect a long post of considered analysis whenever i can be so arsed.

UNVOTE: Schadd_

like i think ur a loon for tunneling me since page 1 but rn i got bigger fish to fry. maybe ill vote u if u get annoying enough again ; )

i mean i'm perfectly happy to continue as i have been. i still think you're mafia. i think there's a lot missing from your reads, especially those on me, which seems like it could be motivated by a desire to leave yourself options based on what i do / favor statements that are argumentatively convenient. i also can't help but notice you simply start to play the game once you're a top wagon and the competing one claimed pr (maybe this is just what badger mode is? i guess i can't say.)

[schadd_]

i very marginally think kirigiri is town but would probably end up with them as a top suspect if you flipped town. i do think you are mafia

[schadd_]

ma'am do you have any reads

[schadd_]

posting again to make you have to read it

[schadd_]

barely read today but definitely dont hammer until we have a plan for who kt blocks in case eiralox flips red

[schadd_]

well i am in fact. but i think there's no plans that need to be made in that case

[schadd_]

I kinda wanna vote red, his sus pool feels wack

what do you disagree with?

put off a little bit by this, but mildly reaffirming my tr here because of the extra work she did about eiralox

Spoiler: iso reading

Do you take issue with my reasons to TR Mala?

you know what I just isod galron bc I remembered the mala interaction differently and I changed my mind, you're right galron's interaction with mala was pretty confirming

also galron's shading of kt makes me want to vote eiralox today instead

i think i kind of like a quick iso read with concise takeaways in this case as a town action

[more analysis]

i also kind of like the impulse here even though its like the opposite of the thing i said is towny like 10 seconds ago. i could see it as being an attempt to justify being on a wagon that flips town if thats what happens but it seems like too much effort/visibility if you're like hopping on your partner's wagon. i guess either way i kind of understand the urge to justify voting eiralox as town here.

as an aside you can use the post tag:

Code: Select all

[post]1008[/post]

which turns into a link to the post: 1008. maybe you knew that and just didnt feel like using it which is fine

what ill do is, rn i got some coffee, so expect some D1 analysis from me in 1-4 hours. ill the take the time. seriously tho ya'll being very impatient for how long theres left, i think getting a scum flip on day1 has made some folk see blood, kinda like schadd_'s tunnel vision since page 1 : p

im honestly done trying to defend myself. im stepping back from it. ill analyze and say where i find scum'll likely be, but the investment im putting in here in trying to grasp others' circular logic is just too taxing to me atm. esp. seanzie and their badger fetish, i told em i can turn into a badger. doesnt mean imma be like that every day. anyway. imma smoke, play a game, then start some shit up in here.

if youre town youve done something pretty difficult and frustrating which is stabilize into a kind of level headed read of the game and not really sr people on the wagon. but this is something townies don't often do i think. which again sucks a lot in that case. i guess theres this thing where i would expect mafia to have interest in behaving differently to duck the wagon, and i also think that the way you were acting before was wolfy, so idk what would happen that makes me stop thinking that other than some brilliant circumstance. anyway ideally you are just a wolf and there doesnt have to be any heartbreak

kt's claim reads fake to me my vote stays where it is

I have never seen a Town Roleblocker, and I have seen many Mafia Roleblockers.

you can look at the mini normal archives and check whether these things are accurate. it seems like straight up town roleblocker is a little less common than straight up mafia roleblocker, which also seems to be true with modified roles. anyway i'm inclined to simply believe kittytacky and then failing that simple belief, recognize that its generally super pro town to leave him alive

well i am in fact. but i think there's no plans that need to be made in that case

I take your comments to suggest that you understand that a town RB with one scum is essentially a cop. In that case, assuming we flip scum!Eiralox today, is there much point to strategizing? Like I'm not saying it is bad, per-say, but how do you see nightfall going?

so if kittytacky is a town roleblocker he's not a cop when he shows up dead in the morning unless we know who he targeted

I think I feel good townbinning Enchant here.

i don't. he doesn't really sound compellingly different than any game i've seen him in i think & he has been mafia in plenty

[schadd_]

Gamma really starts heavily pushing Galron, and Galron responds with his ‘Lol’s’. schadd acknowledges that Galron is scummy, but then deflects attention from Galron by talking about Eiralox. He then says that he doesn’t see how Eiralox is inquisitive, but can the exact same thing not be said about Galron?

i guess i dont know where youre going with this exactly but this thing (among several others in the post) can be explained by not knowing whether either person was mafia at the time and thinking eiralox was more likely. like: ok, but can the same thing not be said about eiralox?

just an incidental comment, when i said backup neighbor is a silly role i meant from a designer's perspective & not indicating i think it would be unlikely to be present in a normal game. in fact i was like rather confident that galron was in fact a backup neighbor (regardless of alignment) just because like, if a neighbor dies and then he doesn't get put in the neighborhood - ok well then cool, he's fakeclaiming (iirc i meant to say that at one point but then the day ended). in fact i have like no idea what to make of the fact that he was fakeclaiming there, it seems like claiming backup neighbor and then flipping informed would be a sign that he had some info about neighborhoods, maybe that one doesn't exist. that would be the kind of obvious takeaway. but in that case it's a wild thing to do if you even have a chance of flipping, yourself, informed mafia. maybe if there isn't in fact a neighborhood thats a sign that there isn't some good mechanical person that's vetting his claims

good T3 let the force flow thru u ; )

ok but like literally what do you even mean by this. the post itself doesn't make any conclusions but i don't see what the implied conclusion would be other than that the interaction makes me look relatively like mafia (pedit: looks like t3 voted me. ok). but you of course spent the last like 48 hours saying i'm town, except for your thing where i looked scummy on d1, except t3's post doesn't do anything to state that without knowing galron was mafia.

VOTE: schadd
Applying the lesson I learned in mini 2276 ;)

:(

[schadd_]

another thing i'll say is that i kind of struggle to see what would what actually be scum indicative for what i said abt galron (t3 and gamma? seem to think so, who both seem like town to me, and btwn them two and eiralox there has to be at least one townie there. lol). i kept saying he was relatively likely to be mafia. i think i had the number 40% in my head although it went up and down obviously. there wasn't really a lot of time for me to vote for him (specifically, to feel like my vote was needed for a good wagon off my top sr to push through), like i gave my schedule in 413 and then he was hammered early the next day (i think it didnt end up being the same song and dance, so maybe that post isn't enough to make the case, but it gives you a sense of the time frame). so i think for it to be scum indicative that i didnt vote galron (or whatever) you'd have to say that eiralox is town and that i as scum would expect them to get executed over galron; and/or it was unreasonable for me as town to be sr'ing eiralox at that point (i'd venture that it's pretty easy to find that this latter point is just false).

well i guess i'm not sure what exactly any of those three people from the first sentence are saying but i don't mind making this point regardless

[schadd_]

i guess i wouldnt say that i struggle to see it. its just like, i was town during that day (among others) and i think that makes sense enough

[schadd_]

random thought i had abt malakittens: i do think that the way she's been playing (just like big picture) is towny, and it reminds me of this idea i hatched up like 5 years ago on an offsite game, which is that you just don't expect good scum players to play where they exert minimal influence on the game. as town it makes sense enough because at the end of the day you're like voting who you want to be killed and maybe doing a power role or something. and like you have the chance of being right about your reads and thus being insulated from your teammates being able to get mad at you (in post game at least). if you're mafia you have a nice little thread where your teammates can yell at you and it's easy to feel like the game is getting away from you and townies are like getting their shit together. i do think mala is at least a pretty good scum player, like she got the most cunning manipulator at one point (with a bunch of caveats, i remember it was a hydra with plotinus & mcm was a single-game award at that point and the hydra had a post count of like 60 or something, but its a real thing) and regardless theres a bit of reason to believe she can like do stuff as mafia (idk like she has a 2013 joindate and stuff). and i think she's had enough time to demonstrate that she doesn't really have any plans, like her whole deal didn't really change after galron flipped & theres a claimed rb.

its a sort of reasoning that you can't bet your life on because it's like metagame in the classic sense of the word (i.e. it's not that it predicates on malakittens specifically but rather just the way that someone approaches the game to begin with, and as such makes a handful of assumptions that can be wrong for unknown reasons in game and out of game) but i at least enjoy proceeding with them and i think it offers like extra stuff to work with

[schadd_]

Maybe I am letting myself be duped but this reread by Eira feels like town thoughtspew
It doesn’t feel like there’s any dedication or intent to a narrative, it’s just what comes up as potentially relevant. As a result there’s stuff that may not pan out, like some of the questions I ask as town.

well if theyre mafia i think their primary goal is just to seem like town right now. and so narratives arent really a big consideration. i think that just going back to old posts and like rating them one by one is a way to try to make something that looks like town spew & isn't too tricky. i guess i wouldn't look at most of these last few posts in most games and say its actively scummy

[schadd_]

hi

[schadd_]

Gamma really starts heavily pushing Galron, and Galron responds with his ‘Lol’s’. schadd acknowledges that Galron is scummy, but then deflects attention from Galron by talking about Eiralox. He then says that he doesn’t see how Eiralox is inquisitive, but can the exact same thing not be said about Galron?

i'll add to my other point & say idk why i'd think eiralox's lols are less scummy than galrons

[schadd_]

ok i thot i remembered them doing it more than once d1 which seems to be false

[schadd_]

tacky, you have a responsibility which is stating who you plan to block in the event that we go down to one mafia left after today (if there isn't a red flip today you block whoever you want). maybe youd think of different options based on who gets executed

[schadd_]

yeah that galron... seedy character, no?

[schadd_]

there's two things about casing eiralox for me here. the first is that i'm just a person trying to make deductions here and i have an unavoidably huge chance of being wrong regardless of how convinced i am (which i kind of am). this means that i have to confront this chance that i somehow convince people to go with eiralox today, it turns out that they've been doing all this stuff while town, and then i have to play maybe the most grueling d3 of my life, in which everything i write here becomes fuel for not only the obvious eager wolves but also townies that wanna let the outcome of the game be someone else's fault. that day almost surely ends in me getting executed but i still have a responsibility to play it out, which i will hate doing so much its unreal. i have to be honest and say this is the thing that is most present in my emotional mind, just because in my mafia history it feels there is so few times i've successfully been part of a wolf hunt that panned out & so many times i've felt that i'm just playing to survive and can't count on my reads being good at all. i'd say the reason i'm playing this game is because i like ausuka & i feel like i haven't replaced into games often, but because of the thoughts i've had in the last half hour i think i'm ready to call this game a reason for me not to continue playing mafia.

there's also another thing, which is that i have no fucking idea whether anybody would engage with a post i'm making in this way. i made 1101 which is shorter and whatever & several people indicated that they just dont seem to have any interest in it. so of course there's that constant threat of just like wasting an hour of my life or whatever.

anyway, i think it needs to be said that i'm a bad candidate for execution today. there's one mega-reason which is that i'm town, and if i flip d2 instead of somebody who's mafia (i'll propose eiralox as a pleasant option!), then kittytacky (if he's town) gets killed tomorrow and then town ev shoots down by idk like 30%.

there's one other reason which is that i have been targeted by kittytacky. anybody remember that? in the business they call that a partial innocent. let's consider several cases. one is that kittytacky is lying and i am his partner. i can only assure you that town does not struggle to win the game eventually in that case. kittytacky claimed roleblocker, which is (possibly) confirmable, and in any case makes the game extremely hard for him if he's the only one left, and in that case i wouldnt be a deep enough wolf to prevent him from getting to that point. in the other cases, i got freakin roleblocked! which means if i'm mafia, that means i had to not be the one who did the kill (or kitty's action failed). in something like half of cases, that just means the team had to be less worried that i'd get tracked or blocked or whatever and maybe that doesn't happen very often, i'll leave that up to you the reader. but in another half of cases it's just a matter of which member of the mafia doesn't have a non-multitasking secondary ability. galron didn't flip with one of those, so if one exists they're still alive. moreover if we see a mafia goon flip that is a stronger sign of me being town (idk if that last point means people should approach my slot any differently but if you feel like it does: please don't vote me!)

anyway, i do think eiralox is mafia. i kind of don't wanna settle on a number for the probability. in my mind its been like 60-70%, reading thru their iso just now there's a few statements they've made that counter the reasoning i've idly had in my mind so i guess i would dampen the number or something but it mostly just makes me not want to adhere to one.

let's start with d1, how they talked about galron. there are three such posts:

yeah schadd_ whatever tbh. there's still plenty of time this game im not gonna sheep some1 on sheanzie or galron just to create the illusion that i think there is enough evidence for one of them being scum this early. i'll speak when i have something to say, rn i don't

UNVOTE: Fancy Pants

don't really think i should unvote, but maybe the replace is gonna have more to say than pants did. im out 4 now.

i'll start by saying that i've never felt all that good about interaction-based reads like this. it slightly occurs to me to say that its interesting they put galron second in that list in spite of galron comfortably being the louder wagon but idt thats really anything.

Spoiler: talking abt galron more

also I want literally everyone's take on galron before we even get within one vote of it happening

specifically eateroftime, fancypants replacement, eiralox, and kirigiri. post your hot takes to be rated. no rush eiralox, but I am looking closely at you on this one.

galron is low effort low info low input. i don't see it advancing the game, but i don't see it as scum either this early. it just is and only if it is still is so some days from now will i have any real reason to speak about it. garlon doesn't seem that miffed about the wagon on 'em, i would be active personally if i were at -2 but i would also be wholly dismissive if such a large wagon formed on me so early. i'm also low input low effort rn and it seems from various responses to me low info, so rn meh galron is galron? i never meta so i have no other input i guess.

p-edit: but garlon after logging in now seems to be going after the wagoneers so yeah we'll see i guess.

hmmmmm........ ok for the record i never defended Galron with cres and sean. merely stated that galron is, as hershcel so eloquently put it, a landscape of rainbows ior whatver. does what garlon has done so far seem scummy? yup. Do I, this early in the game, scumread them for it? hell no. i've seen far scummier behavior in early games from other players, so rn, this early, i'm still more than willing to give Galron some rope, even if they end up hanging themselves with it. basically the low input monicker applied to Galron here i'll apply equally to MalaKittens, KittyTacky, UltimateDetectiveKiri, myself and undoubtedly EATEROFTIME. So i'm not planning to jump onto this wagon anytime soon.

And in terms of actual reads: Hell, I still got none. I have one player who, inexplicably, feels scum to me rn, but this is 100% gut and i got no evidence so i won't expand on it rn.

Basically the whole Galron thing.... I think crescent approaches this correctly by analyzing it from the gamma then the lower-posters angle. If you put someone at -2 this early you have to be more proactive in defending why this early imo. Like i stated previously i don't mind lower posters this early, and from experience don't mind them late-game either depending on my feel on them. rn i feel i've invested way too much time on this forum since re-joining so while ill be active and ill try my best i dont think ill be as obsessive as my usual self, not for now at least.

The whole Galron thing begins after Gamma hard scumread Gal on.... page 1? And hard townread Kitty on the same page, with Kitty later voting Gal, hard scumming them iirc. anyway, i would love to see whether galron is gonna deliver on above promises, right now RE: gal im still where i was at, that im not gonna support putting someone at -1 this early. am i defending? no, i'm being prudent and stating why i won't be voting there anytime soon unless something major pings me(which so far hasn't happened, Galron seems disconnected but that can still swing either way in my mind. )

idk, they talked about him a lot and didnt land anywhere. really the only thing that would be scummy about this is that they just seem very compelled to explain why they're not voting him which is a slightly obvious tmi piece regarding one's partner but it kinda makes sense that a given person would want to say a bunch of things abt galron. i guess its also just kind of scummy to think a lot and then not land on a read at that point (i had a similar thought as haschels 260) but it feels like we have more to work with

Spoiler: explicit softball to galron

@Galron

I'm not pressuring u into something here, i just would appreciate some commentary regarding these three below posts, and what you think of the posters themselves considering their behavior throughout the day. I think, seeing as these three are not currently voting you but do seem open to the idea, that your survival is likely at stake here. so ur choice tbh

Galton made 7 posts in a row and they all said absolutely nothing, then he proceeded to.. "lol" when asked to give actual content?

Galton is exuding quite an impressive level of don't give a shit here. People have brought up other games of his: Is there any precedent for him acting this way?

Galron’s not giving a shit is just very fake and it seems like Galron is scum desperately trying to shake the ‘deer in headlights’ label that Gamma gave him. Just saying ‘Lol’ when asked to give reads is obviously not pro-town. The town thing to do here is to actually try and find reads?

I can't tell if gamma is confbiasing or wolf. Seems he decided I was scum after fewer than 10 words.

Not the first time though.

I really, really, really dislike Galron’s tone here. Like there’s not much of an attempt to defend himself, he just brushes it off while trying to not seem like he’s cracking under pressure.

I see Galron as someone who barely cares about the game already. Posting 10 vague comments at once with sprinklings of content is a pretty easy way to build up a post count without doing much (He's now #4 in the game but not much in the way of actual content).

But I also question the train because 3 of the 5 people in his vote don't really have any particularly strong reason to be there, and two of those people are semi-inactive at best. One hasn't even posted in over 24 hours.


It would be kinda fun to just hop on and throw caution to the wind for once, I guess, but I am generally not a rash player at all.

the thing about it is i have this sinking feeling that this is like a townie who is thinking of punishing everyone for voting a low content slot, or like otherwise proceeding out of spite. one does have to consider that openly refusing to budge on or really address the large amt of people voting them, but (just to articulate it for myself!) i do get the strong feeling that they're scum who doesn't know where to go from here, maybe thinks something like "once i start having to pretend to scumhunt everybody is gonna use terms like 'TMI' and 'fake' at me and its gonna suck so bad". galron if youre scum that is probably true yes. and then also you just vote out people who dont play mafia

i dont make much of this either (i think its reasonable from either town or mafia) but it's one of a lot of things they dont ever really follow up on. but also it just seemed like they didnt really have a lot of time to do that in this case, they just posted once after seeing the next time he came back.

they make a few more posts that i'd say boil down to farting around and being present. it occurs to me to say that there's a tmi element of knowing that the flip is going to be important and just wanting to be present for it one way or another.

ok so Galron as at elim -1 again? sorry i'm tied up with other stuff and really haven't analyzed these past pages thus far. what i'll say is, meh, i hope Galron is scum.

p-edit: nvm that seems to be a hammer lol. ugh let's see what fate decrees then.

this post in particular read as scummy to me, although it was a little more so when i hadnt noticed that they did say "yes i think galron is scummy by play but i don't think thats enough to go on yet", because "i hope galron is scum" just doesnt make sense to say unless you like think its a significant possibility, but it is something you want to say if your goal is to be like "wahaha look at me idk how this flip is gonna go".


ok, onto what i think is the main thing here which is the way they have invisibly changed some stances. the thing that i've talked about and is naturally most glaring to me is their bizarre reading of my slot.

Spoiler:

in particular i'd say eiralox feels a lot like how i'd play scum, especially when i wasn't feeling comfortable with it, which is just kind of placing down statements in a vacuum and hoping to avoid having to follow up on them or talk about them in context. the thing with 826 and 836 is a lot like that, like theoretically there is truth to the first statement that they go badger mode (maybe when they are town!) but when people pressed them to talk about how it might apply in reality to this game they pretty clearly seemed to just duck the question

heres reality: theres been no push on me. u like to delude urself that u did but all uve basically dun is call me wolf for my low levelz of giving a fuck, with a lot of words but basically saying the same thing, wheras seanzie is being similar but mostly approaching it from a passive aggressive angle with my vote on em ,,,,,, so u wanna see my badger mode so badly game up and get me to -2. otherwise i dont see why i have to waste time on weakwater gossip-garnering. and i aint gonna. im glacially coming to a point where i can place a few folk in the totem cubbies i got carved out . thats not on ur schedule, or the way u want it. its my way, my terms. aint happy? 2 bad.

i dont duck shit lines of inquiry, instead i utterly avoid em. no point. u voted me.... what? page 2? 1? rvs after fancypants vote. any1 can go through ur iso and see, what ur saying here, me walking in the dark or being uncomf. or whatver..... yeah thats me dumb eira the obv scum who's begging for sweet release lol. like i would totally be voting seanzie here as scum right?

i never saw a push from u on me that was in any way impressive. throughout day1 you dodged and dived past and through the galron thing but kept that vote on me, nice and tidy, no heavy push on eira but soft hintings and whispering and so on. ur d1, for me at least, and even taking into account my own disengagemnet, is a boat loada nothing 2 me. only now d2 r u vaguely becoming more townish but heck out of a lot of folk i wont mind hunting u as scum. but rn i got nothing solid. so ...... i'm out.

this is their first time really addressing my push on them. two things stand out, which is that they claim my reasons for voting them are ridiculous, "shit lines of inquiry". the second thing is that they sort of bite back by criticizing the way that i voted them instead of galron. apparently at some point during d1 they thought that the way i was playing it was wolfy but if you take away the fact that ostensibly as town they wouldn't know galron was a wolf, it's just the fact that i was voting them, and they don't seem to have anything else to say.

three more people vote them, and then later we have these

like i think ur a loon for tunneling me since page 1 but rn i got bigger fish to fry. maybe ill vote u if u get annoying enough again ; )

the only vote on me that il humor rn and say doesnt feel full scum is Schadd_'s cos at least they have the excuse that theyve been building to it. not that i townread schadd more than u.

it's like an inkling of a re-evaluation that i don't know where it comes from. town are allowed to re-evaluate reads, yes. but as they said i was being annoying. if they're town they're in a frustrating position of having someone tunnel them, and they seemed very convinced that that person's reasons were poorly conceived, which is something it's like hard to dislodge in one's mind in my experience. and then they just flip on that very notion, and go further:

There are only two worthy votes on me: T3 and Schadd_ . Both have valid reasons and I townread them for it.

schadd_'s analysis of me is 80% tru excepting them tunneling me as wolf, so im ok with that vote

and like looking at what they said in the interim 48 hours it's hard to find the thoughts behind this transformation. and it's not even clear exactly what changed. as i said 1089 is like bizarreㅡit seemed like they ended up being fine with the fact that i was voting them d1, but then it seemed like they saw something that was consistent with something they said earlier that opens up the possibility of them getting to vote me and then win.

in my mind what happened is something that's odd to do as town and could reasonably come from the difficulty as scum in dealing with a tunnel on you that seems to be landing, and a desire to try different things that would make it stop as well as leave open options. what i don't really get is a progression that makes sense to me.

i'm gonna click post here but probably keep writing. mostly this thing above is something that i havent seen anyone address and i wonder if there's a way it makes more sense to people and i'm just misreading it by being on the receiving end or something

[schadd_]

and like looking at what they said in the interim 48 hours it's hard to find the thoughts behind this transformation. and it's not even clear exactly what changed.

in the more recent pieces from the quote walls:

i do also think eiralox is a wolf, who i'm voting rn

this late in, still the rvs vote, thinks im scum. fair maybe, like follow ur heart or whatever,

[...]

umm they really didnt do any scumhunting

hmmm ok reasonable but also a very lazy read imo. i was low effort d1 so rn im declining 2 comment in a substantial manner.

these are just like things that they would have had to think about already in order to get to their thoughts on how i was voting them d1. but like the wording and the inconclusiveness doesn't reflect that.

just another piece regarding the quote walls: if the posts themselves simply seem townie i guess i wouldnt have a way to argue with it & wouldn't be primed to pick up on it if it were true. it looks like they come up with a few novel ideas and stuff. but chatting about old posts is a pretty safe way to just get some stuff out when you're mafia. old posts don't fight back. you sort of have permission to look at them in a vacuum and not be required to build up grander progressions and sophisticated thoughts about them. the thing both gamma & t3 said abt them (1106 & 1124) is that they dont have an agenda, but idk, town has agendas. and it seemed like they came away from the posts with like a scumread they already had (on klick) and a new (?) scumread on redcardinal (the redcardinal thing seemed like it was based partly on galron-independent stuff, and at the time those posts were taken from it seemed like they thought there was a dearth of read-generative content per 201. there's a lot of possible explanations for that though and it also seemed like they were just busy at the start of the game)

just tangentially, i know that whenever you case someone like this you hold them to a higher standard of e.g. consistency and like Doing Town Stuff and i really wouldnt mind criticisms of my thinking along those lines

[schadd_]

if it helps schadd I read your post and the one you mentioned. your words matter and have an impact here, going to reread later today when I have more time and give some thoughts

thanks. i guess i ended up being less steamed than at the beginning

schadd does seem awfully calm for someone 30% sure they’re going to play a nightmarish day 3.

well, i was planning a section where i complain about the people that voted me but i wanted to start talking about eiralox to get the thoughts down and then got to the part where i clicked post. i got really pissed off at mala voting me.

[schadd_]

i guess theres this other thing which is that, if i'm mafia then presumably i have a 100% chance of having a nightmarish d3, or maybe i'm like bussing my partner to get that all done with a stray roleblocker around. or maybe you're just saying i'm pretending with the whole thing. Im not

[schadd_]

and like whats the point of that. do i have to keep typing like my hair is on fire for the rest of the post?

[schadd_]

this late in, still the rvs vote, thinks im scum. fair maybe, like follow ur heart or whatever,

something i'll say is that 15 wasnt really an rvs vote, i had a bit of a thought that voting with, like, space-filler text was a wolfy thing.

ooh i also like when galron does something

this post pings me, but considering schadds troll entrance can be town. Not enough to go on but feels clownish either way.

saw this and wondering wym by 'troll entrance'. when i posted that i was just thinking of the one other game i played with galron, where he was an ic and i think had a generally interesting way of approaching the game


two other thoughts i had. the first doesn't really go anywhere. i talked about the quote walls being not-really-towny to me, and i had this thought that it was wolfy to begin with to pivot to themㅡthey started off the day refusing to give general reads & there's a piece in 912 "im always weary of telling scum exactly what i think about who". but then they end up trying to be transparent about them, which sort of fits into my idea that they are trying different stuff to avoid getting exercuted. i end up thinking that's not really anything though. townies often state principles about their play that they conceptually stand by (especially in the moment) and then just kind of find (or don't even notice) that its like too hard to play by them, especially when they get wagoned. and i had also initially missed that they just said they were gonna eventually do a reread in 867 which is before they got any votes that werent mine. i guess there is a lack of stating or implying that they are playing differently due to being wagoned

another thing is that i continue to feel that they aren't really, like, starting lines of inquisition. their thoughts don't seem like they want to treat the currently active and responsive players as a resource. the several questions they've asked have been about like mechanics or why are you voting this person. honestly in that way 415 kind of stands out in their iso. in their quote wall posts they don't really ask questions at all, just sort of forming closed-ended statements about a part of the game that they didn't care much about when they were in it (yes there's the flips). likewise a bunch of their interactions with people just don't seem to want to involve elaboration or followup. 836 and a couple other early d2 things feel like that. the second thing in 1054 strikes me as shutting down a point without giving any elaboration why it doesn't apply, which a townie could even be eager to do in that case. in all the talking about me they did, i don't remember them ever seeming to pick apart why i'm voting them or trying to get more info, just like talk like 1092 that seem interactive i guess but dont go anywhere.

this is something i'm thinking about when i say it's maybe too high of a standard of towniness, like idk you don't have to be a busy bee chattering with everybody. in fact i'm not sure that there's many people in this game to begin with that absolutely meet it, off the top of my head i think that seanzie has been following up with people often and i kind of remember haschel doing it when he was posting.

[schadd_]

RE: Schadd: I havent read their latest stuff but i think schadd_ is a strong case builder and an asset to town.

ok but like: if youre town. you're not bothering to read my case, and it's wrong. so what does this mean. why do you think this. am i just good at typing words into my computer?

like im tired tryin to convince schadd that im green so like whatever

the thing is that you've basically not done this at all. you've like kind-of-talked to me and kind-of-argued with me

so im not always on the spot with guessing roles but rn from general feel I'll say schadd_ is VT.

do you know why it's pointless and also bad to say things like this

I bet you don't even read them, and just see big = town.

Yes I did read them.

do you have any interest in saying anything to me about whats contained in them

every other slot has a reason to be town based on galron except this one and eiralox

i'd take this as cause to put a higher level of skepticism on those reasons

also I really, really dislike post 338 I quoted above. I still don't understand what was meant by it and it feels really strange and weird given the galron flip

yeah it's odd, especially when one doesn't seem to have many more takeaways abt the game

I take back my schadd scumread. Schadd's walls seem very town to me.

I have pored over schadd’s wall and haven’t been able to form a read on it, so what about it is very town to you?

ok well as long as you're poring do you have interest in sharing thoughts about it with me so that i'm not just playing mafia in my mind

The line about "Only Schadd_ has solid reasons on me" suddenly ignores when he said that T3 also had valid reasons to vote him, only now T3 is a scumread with no reason given for that.

yeag i think i didnt notice this

[schadd_]

you messed up the vote tag

[schadd_]

t3 woth regards to when they voted me yday

[schadd_]

VOTE: eiralox boom bye town

[schadd_]

what r gamma's bad reads

[schadd_]

you named 3 people that she said are probably town... if she's mafia then 2 of those people are in fact town or more

[schadd_]

makes sense

[schadd_]

i didnt rly make anything of the kill

[schadd_]

i was reading some of eod2 but didnt post. in principle a rolecop claim merits a higher level of scrutiny for if youre gonna vote them out, it is a mildly positive utility role (it gets hard alignment results on e.g. vengeful & strongman, and it's otherwise good when you get a result on someone who is mafia) and there's also a world where their result on me somehow explained why they'd be weird abt my slot. i never unvoted just bc i kept thinking they had the best chance of flipping red although by a bit smaller of a margin.

i was kind of edging gamma towards null in my mind during the night. lol. it just seemed tricky to particularly townread eiralox yesterday and especially 1271 came across as white knighty. & i did also continue to just find it bizarre to be tring enchant. also i initially townread that thing where she spells out reasons for reads based on other games but after the vote in 1090 was sitting on me for a while it sort of felt like a safe way to be voting a townie. anyway

In theory Schadd is the one person that Eiralox has extra information about but he doesn't interact with Schadd in a way that tries to leverage that information to do anything.

i'm interested to know what you would do to leverage a vanilla result

well that's embarrassing VOTE: Haschel

was there something that made mala seem less wolfy here? it's not exactly clear to me what you were calling 'confirming' in 1357 and how it changes after hearing mala is joking abt the claim

Before anything happens we need to know who KT blocked.

I blocked redcardinal.

did you think rc was scum during the night?

A Town Rolecop and a Town Roleblocker are quite weak

Bullshit

They are not weak

Yes…. I think they are? At least compared to other PR’s. I doubt scum would have compensation for them. I think schadd is a pretty experienced mod, so I’d be interested in his input.

rolecop is weak (i guess my thing at the top is to say i'd marginally rather have one alive, but it's like a tenth as good a cop). roleblocker is medium i'd say. kind of good.

I still think my case on him is valid

i think its not

[schadd_]

it seems i've established something we already knew which is that i exude a lethal concentration of thread poison. i cant help it. i was kinda waiting for people to respond before doing more reads talk. let me make things worse by farting around with some more mech stuff (pedit i see kitty showed up)

if schadd and I are scum, kt is town which means you're scumreading the two people with partial clears from a roleblocker, meaning kt would have had to hit a 50/50 miss twice in a row for us both to be scum.

so, weirdly i'll say that i don't think this works out to anything. first of all i have the vanilla result on me, which means that i can only (really) be mafia if the third member doesn't have an exclusive role they'd use night 1 (or if kt is mafia). and if there's like a multitasking role i think you would still usually want to have the goon do the kill. so to begin with, me + redcardnal team would require that either of us can freely do the kill n1. i think that you'd probably have the person on the galron wagon do the kill. night 2, redcardinal seemed to be more suspected and also i already got blocked once which i think would be a sign that i'm like home free to do the kill. anyway this is all to say i don't see that team being ruled out. Lol. maybe the more relevant piece is that i don't think the redcardinal result is allll that informative. theres another thing which is that you can have like a 1-shot scum role that frees up the kill slot for n2 (although vice versa there's like novice roles and whatever. idk i guess there's not really anything to say there ok ba ba ba ba whatever)

anyway the fact that klick doesn't seem to have considered that is of course noted

another aside is that if kitty is scum, he seemed perfectly happy to let eiralox survive day 2, which to me is a sign that he is indeed a roleblocker in that case. i kind of think that in turn would be a sign that it's hard for him to be partners with me (he wouldn't be able to target me with it, and true-claiming the role but fake claiming the target seems like the worst of both worlds, even if it's convenient to have that semi-inno on a partner).

eiralox returning vanilla on schadd is a further indicator that schadd is town bc mafia likely have prs beyond just an informed

i think this is marginally true but not necessarily. the number of goons in normal games lately has been close to 1 on average, people like to gussy up scumteams with a few stinky little things. and then with galron flipped as the proverbial donkey revealed behind door 1, the remaining mafia have ummm approximately 1 goon left out of 2 (?). and then probably something like half of currently alive townies are vanilla as well. so the priors dont really tilt in any direction

[schadd_]

1. I don't understand, why would RC question such a thing when it can't happen?
2. Sheeping someone is opportunism, k.

Re: schadd_
Yeah I thought RC was pretty scummy during the night but now I don't think so. The Klick case made sense to me.

you went from townreading her by the end of day 2, to scumreading her overnight, then landing on a case she made day 3 and circling back to townreading her. is there anything else you can point to that explains these changes

[schadd_]

These are not the scum you're looking for.

Out of Mala/Klick/Haschel, who do you think is most likely scum and who is most likely town?

i'm still pretty willing to believe mala is town. as i said i got frustrated by her a lot yesterday & i wanted to like go back on my claim that her sort of limited interaction with the game is town-indicative, but then the fact that i wanted that is a sign that she's not like intervening to keep it up. if that makes sense. anyway i also think gamma's townread on her is compelling. it sounded like they have a history and i guess i just feel like there would be a good basis to get a read on mala. & i think she was always confidently town on mala

klick hasn't ever made me feel particularly like they're town. they don't have much of a sense that they're reacting to/processing how the game is going, and especially for d2 that seems a little bit more true than the replacement gives it reason to be. like when you hop in when there's stuff going on, you have the choice of keeping up with the present and getting the ball rolling quickly or just rereading the old stuff. maybe thats a personal choice, i don't know. it seemed like they were playing very uninteractively. i'd struggle to find a good partner for them, maybe like enchant or something. i do think kiri giri's posting abt galron mildly matches up with how you'd expect someone to try to defend a partner, it's interesting that they were really the only person that tried to do it

haschel more or less matches up with how i expect geriatric town players to play (geriatric being a term that refers to people who played on here like 10+ years ago and are used to a slower and maybe more straightforward game). he has a kind of high standard of analysis and questioning that reminds me of when i played with channel delibird 2 ish yrs ago. i vaguely expect that as scum he would be trying harder to push a scum wincon or like, actively seem to be town. there's nothing impenetrable here but i don't really wanna vote him & have continually not for maybe since d1

i assume you (seanzie) aren't like softing an inno on kitty here. in any case i think that it's extremely odd that he didn't die, to the extent that it occurs to me to say he's more likely scum than not; i don't remember the last time i've seen a scumteam on this site let a claimed pr live over somebody who couldn't reasonably have seemed to be a pr. i don't wanna vote him now because i dont think theres enough of a benefit that it outweighs the pr but that stands out to me a lot in any case. i've felt he's very marginally town based on play during the day. also no idea who his partner would be

Before you ask, the one from Schadd is more detailed and has quotes because that's the one I did first.

ok well why did you do me first.

.

i suppose i can't abide by the claim that it's scum-indicative for me to have been pushing eiralox. as i said i think there was ample reason to be scumreading them and i guess i meant it in a "yes even if eiralox is town" sort of way. and of course here we are

Foreshadowing on purpose? Later starts to tie Eiralox to Galron.

idk what you mean by foreshadowing. i dont think i ever felt the ties btwn eiralox and galron were very strong

What about a KT/Schadd pairing? This would require KT bussing Galron but otherwise fits. Nobody ever bothered to ask this for some reason and it's kind of too late now, but

why did KT roleblock Schadd

?

maybe you won't care to hear it from me but i did comment on that pairing in 1451. Somehow i dont think its very likely. incidentally i'll say that eiralox did ask kitty that in 899 (i noticed that post i think because i was looking for instances where they asked ppl questions)

Re: schadd_
Yeah I thought RC was pretty scummy during the night but now I don't think so. The Klick case made sense to me.

What about it specifically made sense to you?
I understand people feeling vaguely poor about this slot due to relative inactivity/optics, but redcardinal didn't really provide any evidence for my slot being scum outside of a personal theory of the scumteam

i'm also interested in this. yeah, there's like barely a case

I don't really agree with this read. Schadd was 1. more active/more on people's minds, and 2. better placed, than any of those other slots, so I think all else held equal Schadd would be less likely to carry the kill in fear of things like watcher (don't want your deepwolf going down because they submitted a kill) and because PRs tend to target their strongest scumread, which often is someone who is active enough to actually be scrutinized.

However, I do give the conclusion weight for a different reason; Schadd being vanilla AND not submitting the kill makes them on the lower-probability side of possible scum, unless of course both remaining scum are vanilla, but I kind of doubt that's the case.

in my experience people on this site almost always proceed by trying to avoid tracker/jailer/roleblocker/alien than watcher. maybe the way i rattled off the roles hints at why i think that is. i'll also say watcher is uncommon, it appears half as often as tracker (alone) in normals. i think there's other reasons as well

as for that second thing: i literally said that yeah. i guess its hard to blame someone for not reading 1451

[schadd_]

incidentally i'll say that eiralox did ask kitty that in 899 (i noticed that post i think because i was looking for instances where they asked ppl questions)

oh and he did answer even. 909

[schadd_]

I appreciate Enchant backing me up here, town points for them,

i saw this again and thot it was funny. probably i should have townread it. maybe i kind of did

[schadd_]

did you have any thoughts about eiralox yesterday

[schadd_]

Kinda feels like GE's UDKG read was made up.

If you demonstrate legitimate solving I’ll legitimately engage this but as of now, all it seems like you’re doing is trying your hardest to smear obvtown.

I mean if this is what he's doing it's working really well on me
I don't think this is intentional

do u remember what you meant by the second line here

[schadd_]

But KT is town.

i guess we don't get to like know why

[schadd_]

as i said there's no way in the world you'd investigate a claimed pr. ok i guess there is a way in the world. maybe its something else. ok what ever

[schadd_]

i think im gonna proceed by pretending and/or believing that there's a shot at kitty being a wolf and thus i will continue to not mind him being obliged to like respond to questions and what have you

[schadd_]

as i said there's no way in the world you'd investigate a claimed pr. ok i guess there is a way in the world. maybe its something else. ok what ever

I feel like if I brush off the glitter that was hastily poured over this post, what would be revealed is you being pissed that the PR in a bad spot that you thought you could miselim is no longer a viable miselim.

the glitter is me not asking you for any details

[schadd_]

do you mean like i'm scum trying to express to you that i'm upset you got a result but then obscuring with little clues it like a little criminal mastermind

[schadd_]

So we have a town roleblocker, a town rolecop, and an implied town regular cop?

is there a need to know what seanzie's role is

[schadd_]

i assume you (seanzie) aren't like softing an inno on kitty here.

i expressed this viewpoint before you clarified that it was indeed a result

[schadd_]

do you mean like i'm scum trying to express to you that i'm upset you got a result but then obscuring with little clues it like a little criminal mastermind

No. I'm accusing you of being scum that is upset and whose true feelings came through in that post even if you did not intend them to.

ok. um, i don't think that really happens like that. idk what to tell you i guess

[schadd_]

maybe it's not clear why one wouldn't investigate a claimed pr and i kind of don't care abt this enough to make you have to talk about it

[schadd_]

So we have a town roleblocker, a town rolecop, and an implied town regular cop?

is there a need to know what seanzie's role is

Not specifically, although under the circumstances I do want to know if KT is actually clear or if Seanzie is just implying that because he either townreads KT or is doing a reaction test or something like that.

i think we can trust in getting this info in due time

[schadd_]

do you mean like i'm scum trying to express to you that i'm upset you got a result but then obscuring with little clues it like a little criminal mastermind

No. I'm accusing you of being scum that is upset and whose true feelings came through in that post even if you did not intend them to.

ok. um, i don't think that really happens like that. idk what to tell you i guess

It happens all the time, and picking up on wolves inintended emotions is one of the best ways I make reads. I am not 100% sure if that is exacrly what happened here, and the whole rolecop/roleblock thing d1 looks good for you, so I am hesitant, but that post definitely could be gilded wolf frustration.

maybe that makes sense. anyway it's not. i hope i've made it clear where i'm coming from.

[schadd_]

can i have anything to chew on as to why cardinal and enchant are town?

[schadd_]

enchant has a partner and the last game i modded where he was a wolf he barely said anything abt nightkills. and that's making the concession that he wouldn't want gamma to turn into a gravestone that reads "enchant probably town", which i don't think.

agree that cardinal has had a lot of those good thought processes

[schadd_]

really the thing in my mind about redcardinal is that she feels like she could be playing to make endgame. i also thought that about gamma

[schadd_]

scum enchant has a partner that is. lol

[schadd_]

definitely holding out hope that this is a simple game -_-'

[schadd_]

oh yeah we need to have the kittytacky block plan again

[schadd_]

in case you're wanting to block me: you should keep in mind that if someone flips with a role they'd use n1 that is pretty much a full clear for me

[schadd_]

I felt very good about Enchant's hammer on Eria, and honestly they just vibe well IMO. They are by far the closest to my PoE line though out of those that are not in it.

fine. yeah i don't share these thoughts i guess. for the vibe sense in particular they are not really that different from games they were scum that i remember

[schadd_]

alright

[schadd_]

idt massclaim is needed gimme a second

[schadd_]

IF YOU ARE A POWER ROLE, CLAIM NOW. IF YOU ARE A PR, THEN ONE OF SEANZIE AND HASCHEL IS CONFIRMED SCUM. IF EVERYONE IS A VT, THEN SEANZIE, HASCHEL, AND KT ARE 99% CLEARED.

i'll make a claim at the top and justify it later: sentences 2 and 3 do not imply sentence 1.

so first of all, i softly disagree with sentence 2. there's games with 5 power roles. here's a spotty example: vig, backup vig, novice traffic analyst (close to cop strength in this case), 3 shot tracker, 1-shot bp. 1-shot bp is weak and backup vig is a backup, but rolecop is weak in this setup, non-consecutive night doc is weak, and we don't know what seanzie's role is. from the mini archives (1952) i found vanilla cop, roleblocker, 2-shot vig, 2-shot doc, 2-shot bp. kind of similar to here (if there's another role somewhere). in that case, there's a large amt of (low power) roles that can exist in addition to the current roles on the table and would stack up. crucially that requires that there's mafia power, which we don't know about.

i think if there's a full and good invest role out there, that person would have a bit of reason to believe seanzie is a wolf. if there's a full and good doctor out there, that person has good reason to believe haschel is lying; implo doesn't like pairs of doctors for town. anything else that's like a gated role or something that doesn't give hard results, i don't think you need to claim or have much to glean here.

i do believe that if everyone else is vanilla, that's a sign that the claimed PRs are all town yes. i don't see any subset of them where it would make up a fully furnished town, although maybe it depends on what seanzie is.

anyway: in the event that there's a full role that makes it clear that one of the claimed roles is lying. if you claim on d3, that means we have a pool of 4 people and one of them is scum. awesome! i would look for the wolf outside of that group, because of them being claimed prs. so the claim is not worthwhile. at the very least waiting until d4 is like, free, it gives a theoretical extra town pr additional time to get a result or do whatever they do and if they want to claim that day, sure, it doesn't make things any worse.

in particular there are roles here with the ability for mafia to play around them, especially if they have blocking power. more info is great for mafia. people on this site are too ready to massclaim

[schadd_]

another thing i think is important is that it is currently not clear what seanzie's role is and i think that's great and there's no reason for that to change. i'm pretty comfortable seanzie is town.

[schadd_]

I'm gonna claim as well. I am a Non-Consecutive Night Doctor. I am not going to reveal if I used my power last night or not so the scum will have to choose between either killing me or taking a shot at taking out the cop.

Is a Nonconsecutive Doc, Rolecop, Roleblocker, and Regular Cop too much for a Normal Game? To be honest I have no idea these days since this is my first game in a long time. But either KittyTacky and Seanzie are partners, in which case one false move sinks both of them, or they are telling the truth and we can start doing some PoE stuff with me removed from the pool as well.

ok so, evaluating this claim:

• i think there's a baseline trickiness in coming up with that role as like a fakeclaim. it's possible it exists as a scum role as a pleasant foil for the rolecop.
  
• there's a town impetus for claiming here, even if i kind of don't agree with it, which is trying to evaluate town power. imo it's hard to come up with that simple basis as scum (and i feel like i've never seen it before), and it's pretty much right when you'd expect town to do it (after seeing a certain critical mass of other roles)
  
• i think there just isn't a reason for mafia to do this, really it constantly pushes up that question "why didn't you die?" and sounds like a huge hassle to parse through what your actions were supposed to be
  
• there's one reason that stuck out to me which is just like rolefishing. something bothersome that stuck out to me was repeating the implicit claim of "regular cop" for seanzie; there's Bo Nyrzlik's Law or whatever its called where you state (potentially) incorrect information as a way to get someone to tell you the real thing. i think haschel is like an epic fan of internet laws like that and to wit i think he'll know the name of the law i'm thinking of and will be prompted to say the correct name of it because i said a wrong one.
  .
  anyway i don't think that really adds up to much. in order for that to be a good move, scum has to be worried about how to play with the current roles (really it's "do i kill kitty or seanzie"; i think haschel being scum pretty much necessitates seanzie town and thus kitty town) and also have somebody that's capable of making endgame elsewise. just seems like a very specific set of circumstances where that's what you wanna do and a very tricky way of doing it which i think i rarely see nowadays.
  
• i'm not affected by the crescent thing. first of all it is reasonable to not have saved crescent night 1, there were a lot of people that could have been killed. i didnt have any ideas who it would be myself. it makes sense as a possibility that haschel doesn't know about informed and wouldn't have any thoughts about it; moreover, if i were to assume haschel is town i personally would not expect that the inform has anything to do with him with a particularly high likelihood.

[schadd_]

just incidentally i think it would make sense for klick to klaim.

[schadd_]

oh anyway conclusion is that i think it's a real claim. i think that follows from what i said but spelling it out.

[schadd_]

VOTE: Seanzie

What if Galron

was

informed that there is non consecutive night doctor and Seanzie is his partner TMI’ing it.

i believe it makes sense to think so but i also don't really think this is what happened.

[schadd_]

haschel, in 747 did you mean you expected a specific person to be dead? (well i guess there is room to plead the fifth here.)

[schadd_]

i see 1580 addresses that. yeah that makes sense.

[schadd_]

VOTE: Seanzie

What if Galron

was

informed that there is non consecutive night doctor and Seanzie is his partner TMI’ing it.

i believe it makes sense to think so but i also don't really think this is what happened.

trying to cough up specific reasoning for this i would say i like the timestamp of 1576 vs 1575 and 1572, i.e. quick to have a supporting reason and even quicker to have it after the specific accusation of tmi is lodged. i also just think the line of inquiry is good critical thinking

[schadd_]

not me missing several innings of the padres kicking the shit out of the nats to do all of this bullshit nobodys gonna read. While gay

[schadd_]

as part of my ongoing commitment to getting the facts straight in this game i must say that i probably would have missed the trent grisham home run even if i started watching the second i got home

[schadd_]

:)

[schadd_]

yeah i'm still laffing

[schadd_]

if you give kitty a pool of two people, unless thats literally the team they just have the person not on the list do the kill

[schadd_]

lookin like a wolf

[schadd_]

heres where i'd just steal the hammer from you but Im shy

[schadd_]

enchant -> t3 -> redcard for me. gently going to assume that there aren't any PRs left, in which case any level of strongman would be extremely weird in this setup (half of the town power comes as protection . . .) so i would really like mala to never enter the poe.

[schadd_]

VOTE: enchant <- my 3rd vote of the game i think

[schadd_]

UNVOTE:

[schadd_]

can i guess what your role is before you do your reveal :^)

[schadd_]

enchant -> t3 -> redcard for me. gently going to assume that there aren't any PRs left, in which case any level of strongman would be extremely weird in this setup (half of the town power comes as protection . . .) so i would really like mala to never enter the poe.

You don't think they could put an X-shot strongarm to counter RB and doc?

in that world i would judge the town to be too weak i think. you're probably used to a lower standard for town than is the case on here

[schadd_]

and also it would just be a weird setup

[schadd_]

ugh maybe thats wrong. its like so weird that kitty survived the night

[schadd_]

Oh this probably goes without saying but I'm not going to say if I protected anybody last night or not.

I mean, I am assuming you distinctly did NOT protect KT, and if you did, you definitely should say so.

also think this is worth claiming

[schadd_]

but it kind of depends whether seanzie is capable of getting another result for tonight

[schadd_]

strongman is a role im pretty sure i never used in my whole life for this exact reason & i think i've just neglected to put it in my usual "this game doesnt contain [...]" disclaimers

[schadd_]

anyway bringing this game back to earth i do think i townread mala on play more than i townread my 3 poe choices. the only thing is that it really feels like kitty was left alive specifically to be able to get hit by the rb and then coast like that, but

i'm sorry hold that thought. where did who say that kitty was blocking mala

[schadd_]

did we f'n hammer before kitty gave a definite answer himself...... i didnt even realize that

[schadd_]

ㅎㅗㅎ

[schadd_]

i currently think there's like a 70% chance he blocked mala and a 30% chance he blocked t3

[schadd_]

anyway bringing this game back to earth i do think i townread mala on play more than i townread my 3 poe choices. the only thing is that it really feels like kitty was left alive specifically to be able to get hit by the rb and then coast like that, but

i'm sorry hold that thought. where did who say that kitty was blocking mala

Why do you townread Mala?

first paragraph of 1497

Okay, I think everyone has checked in. Schadd, RedCardinal, if you want to guess my role, go ahead.

my thinking yesterday was complex cop (i.e. it explains why youd invest kitty). but then it kind of doesnt make sense that you seem to not have a result on haschel. so i don't really have any other guesses. i guess its like some kind of just cop.

[schadd_]

i think i'd need there to be another town role or have seanzie be stronger than he's been made out to be in order to believe haschel is fake claiming. i also had the thought that it was pretty convenient given the circumstances, but i guess i discounted that due to the simple difficulty of coming up with it (not only like, from the sense of how convenient it is for scum, but also it's just an obscure role and idt haschel [or klick] have really played enough normals in recent years to spring it). it's not impossible and i get the argument.

[schadd_]

VOTE: enchant

[schadd_]

theres investigative neighborizers. i wanna say i invented them

[schadd_]

In a normal game context

[schadd_]

VOTE: enchant boom bye town

[schadd_]

seems that it has been 3 and a half weeks since the last time i viewed a film

[schadd_]

parasite is great!

[schadd_]

hello again all

[schadd_]

so did anybody else get put in the hood ?

seanzie had a hood with kittytacky and presumably he would have said something to the effect of who he targeted there. i wish seanzie had just said whether that was true or not (relatedly, i wish we had more time in the day yesterday . . ) but he seemed content that kitty would have targeted mala

[schadd_]

and in any case seanzie had a place to be like: hi, you should block mala. so ok i'm pretty comfortable with that part at least

i think t3 has been the odd one out for the last couple days & i plan to vote there. if anybody else is a PR at this point they should probably claim.

[schadd_]

i dont

[schadd_]

well i believe town has an elimination to spare here. as i stated i think you've been the odd one out so i would narrowly expect you'd be the more likely one to flip wolf. but idk what else the plan is supposed to be, i think mala is clear and haschel is kind of necessary for the setup to work

[schadd_]

i'm gonna say t3 and redcardinal should claim today. I'll claim too if you want. Im vt

[schadd_]

another thing abt my slot is that i would have had to do the kill over (at the time) kiri giri on n1 as a wolf, which i dont think would have happened. probably the setup with the 4 claimed roles against just an inform (which doesn't seem to have been very useful... probably it was just about there being a protective, which also means there probably isn't a strongman, because why would you have a strongman but then also have an inform, and then why would that team just dodge protection on night 1 presumably) doesn't get past review, although that's not 100% clear to me

[schadd_]

awesome

[schadd_]

VOTE: t3

[schadd_]

i was ready to argue more for t3 being a wolf today but really the only reason i knew that was because he was totally backed into a corner by role stuff and it was clear he was trying to clear a path for endgame when nobody else was really bothering with that. i guess i kind of was. didnt notice in the slightest that redcard was neighborized

i dont think town played especially brilliantly past the galron flip & i know i definitely didnt. i feel like this was a slightly strong setup for town and then yea as ausuka said it just played out quite favorably. seanzie definitely wound up with good targets, i wouldnt have advocated in a million years for investigating kitty on the night that i was like 80% sure he'd show up dead (if he was town) but i think it worked out very well

[schadd_]

i had inklings of t3 being scum earlier (i was weirded out by 1124 being identical to what gamma had said a moment ago & i thought his case on me was maybe too wrongheaded but i mostly chalked that up to like the innate frustration has when you get cased) but i didnt really consider it at all on d1 and d3.

[schadd_]

I actually sent out the role pms in a random order because it occured to me that if i sent them in role order that could be metagamed

I don't think anyone would actually do that because that's stupid and dumb but I wonder if it would be hypothetically possible in some games

i usually send them in plist order except its just convenient to send the vts and the mafia at the same time (vts i use bcc and just send them all the same pm, and then mafia i usually just send a bare link to the scum pt which has the roles in it). yes i also have this paranoia

[schadd_]

ok then yeah what did that mala post even mean. no i haven't used backup neighbor seems like a silly role

I feel like no one else understands the context of this but

A long time ago, I co-moderated a game called kidney mafia and it was a very memey game

I think it'll be slightly funny if Schadd_ wrongly assumes Galron's role claim is correct because of that. That said I understand backup neighbour being a fakeclaim isn't exactly intuitive.

i dont remember any of the roles from that game, like there was a ridiculously tiny mafia and this serial killer that had a bunch of bullshit and the survivors team and then like every individual member of the town fakeclaiming something for fun

[schadd_]

Town Rolecops are, by default, considered one of the weakest town PRs. Vanilla cops are usually weaker, but as far as investigative roles go, by default, town rolecop is considered probably among the weakest 5. Neapolitans are stronger, Gunsmiths are stronger, Cops are stronger, Trackers are stronger, Followers are stronger, PT Cops are stronger, Traffic Analysts are stronger, I'd even argue Motion Detectors are stronger (altho that one is debatable).

yeah i'd say it's like motion detector ~= rolecop (you can make setups where rolecop is better or worse) > vanilla cop > voyeur > all the roles we added in the last like 2 years that do nearly nothing > the roles that simply do nothing

[schadd_]

i thought about ascetic for 30 seconds and then discarded it for i dont remember what reason

[schadd_]

i also thought of multitasking RB but that would need more town power and then i'd also have to ask how ausuka would deal with the mutual blocking scenario which i didnt feel like doing

[schadd_]

basically i thought about the mala thing for like an hour and then stopped

[schadd_]

in a normal game with those roles i believe you have to come up with what happens beforehand and i think you have to say that one of them wins. but idk

if I were in the game I probably would never eliminate Mala just because the role based evidence she's town is stronger than most people's reads - ascetic and strongman can exist but won't most of the time

i also abide by this and i think it makes games less fun. there's a load of roles in normal games that are like "cop, but there's some predictable moments where it gets a false result". for example a lot of people get excited to put gunsmith vs mafia doctor in their setup. but games where the gunsmith investigates the doctor: just suck. the theory of it is that, well, a sufficiently good town can sniff out that the person is scum against all odds, but that basically won't happen and on top of that nobody wants to do it. maybe it's more fun from the perspective of somebody that's mafia trying to argue that somebody else's gunsmith inno is false in f3 or something

in short i think i said during the game that it's really not clear to me that most roles in the normal pool make the game more fun

[schadd_]

i'm still pretty willing to believe mala is town. as i said i got frustrated by her a lot yesterday & i wanted to like go back on my claim that her sort of limited interaction with the game is town-indicative, but then the fact that i wanted that is a sign that she's not like intervening to keep it up. if that makes sense. anyway i also think gamma's townread on her is compelling. it sounded like they have a history and i guess i just feel like there would be a good basis to get a read on mala. & i think she was always confidently town on mala

[schadd_]

i'll say i feel good about having picked that out as the read worth paying attention to. Lol

[schadd_]

That leaves redcardinal, schadd, Gamma, and Crescent as potential kill targets.

wahoo!!!!! (killing me would have surely been a mistake)

[schadd_]

i'd agree with my nebulous past assessment that kidney was a silly game. i think this game was fine. yes weak neighborizer is one of the several roles i'd say is probably innately fun

[schadd_]

seemed like you did well enough