Open 899 - The Pizza Kids Coalition [Game Over]

[T3]

Ok

[T3]

I made tuna spaghetti and baked alaska

[T3]

I don’t think I’ve ever had a chicken wrap

[T3]

I rolled town both times

In a game I modded recently I accidentally replaced 2 players into 1 slot and then left the incorrect Town Roleblocker role PM for the 2nd player sitting in their inbox for 2 hours until I realized my mistake… Luckily they didn’t read it

[T3]

T3 townish.

I thought the same things from T3's first post

Why

[T3]

Actually let me just explain my Appearance read

I thought this:

hi y'all!
will post more later

Quickly followed by this:

implo and t3 prob town for now.

Was more likely to come from town. Felt like a towny who didn't plan to post a read or anything but had a thought so posted it.

I also think that having 2 reads is likelier to come from town than from scum, who (like implo did) would be more likely to have a single read.

I agree with the first part of this read.

[T3]

ngl best thing about this setup is townhunting is easier for me.

tbh i'm scared of scum distancing in this setup.

Posts like this are >rand for town, although I'm not sure how experienced Appearance is.

[T3]

DragonEater has a certain aesthetic to his reasoning that reminds me of myself in a way, probably moreso in the past than now. The idea of viewing x thing as more/less likely to come from scum (i.e. reading 1 vs 2 people in an opening post) in such a way that really looks like splitting hairs unless you're the one making the claim. I think when I would post that way I probably tended to do it more as town than scum because it's a lot easier to naturally come up with a sort of hairbrained theory when you're genuinely thinking about the game. It's the kind of read I'd post in the first few pages and then go back and look at weeks later while rereading myself (as town) and genuinely have no idea how I came to the conclusion in the read. I think his first couple pages are fairly towny.

Agreed - I suspect that his 'conspiracy theories' are +town but I'd have to take a look at his meta.

[T3]

I keep thinking this game is 7 players

there's also a part of me that wants to call this post like, really hard town for being the kind of thing scum would be very unlikely to genuinely think (because they have a scumbuddy they're interacting with/are probably more self-conscious about stuff) and also extremely unlikely to come up with the idea of faking

implosion is constantly saying things I agree with but I don't know if that makes him town.

[T3]

I love how you say you

used to

say "this is more likely to come from town than scum" in the past, and immediately follow it with "I think this posting is more likely to come from town than scum" (not saying this is alignment indicative, just find it funny). As a note, yeah that's an early game read, not a lategame read.

Also Klick can you help me out here? I think you should understand why I would consider a fast-paced, TvT-heavy game start to be superior to a slow and "wow everyone is so towny" game start, considering how well our last TvT-heavy game went. And this game I feel everyone is just TRing other people and trying not to step on anybody's toes (except me, Kyo, and you to a degree). Which makes it very hard to read people.

So if you can help me push this game into TvT (or even TvS) territory that'd help.

Pedit: to me, making it out like that philosophy should dictate my every thought is a "misrep" of my intentions, so that's what I call it.

Also, what do you make of DV's post being the way it is?

Feels performative IMO

I doubt you'd struggle to find reads if people aren't pushing each other but maybe

[T3]

implosion’s reasoning for reads so far has resonated with me and i don’t think anything feels forced (which i think is more important in this setup because wolves want to sneak in at least one of them)

Agreed although iirc he's good at faking that as scum

[T3]

I'll be able to post at around 7 pm tomorrow

[T3]

I dislike Klick’s sureness about his coalition

[T3]

I've reread through the game but I really don't have much to say

[T3]

I'm interested in trying to work out a coalition but I'm struggling to find reads...

[T3]

Nearly everything I have to say feels like a massive reach

[T3]

This is not the point I'm making. In 46, you say that we should focus scumreads more than townreads because focusing townreads lets scum blend in. At the same time, you say Appearance is town and so far all he'd done was give out 2 unexplained TRs. If you think scum blends in by focusing on TRs, you don't also think that Appearance is town. You're claiming to have one philosophy on how to play the setup that contradicts your reads.

I don't like this post/line of logic. It feels less like a misrep (i actually don't like dragoneater calling it a misrep) and more like it's reductive, like if Dragoneater claims to have a particular philosophy that he mentioned then that philosophy doesn't necessarily underrun everything that he thinks. It's lacking in consideration imo as a reason to scumread dragoneater (and it does look like kyouko is scumreading dragoneater).

This seems like disingenuous scum

[T3]

More specifically I think implosion is experienced enough to know that questionable/reductive reasoning isn't necessarily an indicator of scum and that DE (one of his townreads) is doing the same thing

[T3]

Alright game solved for realsies

HEAL: Klick, Appearance, Dragon, Elements, DeasVail

Now I just lurk until DV and Klick figure out this is the correct solve and then we just convince two others.

The kind of rhetoric of this post is something I feel like I could write an essay about. In the last coalition game I played, I was scum and there was a player (Hero at Heart) who was repeatedly giving similar rhetoric of surety about their coalition (nb: both scum were in it). I think d1 in that game was somewhat easy for me to navigate probably in large part due to that kind of rhetoric, where certain people (myself included) were almost viewed as above scrutiny in a way that felt like it radiated out from Hero's reads. Granted, Hero actually did change his reads plenty of times iirc, but ultimately the town deferred to it with the only real objection coming from me (because i softly wanted my scumbuddy off the coalition).

In this case, I think this coalition is massively likely to have scum on it somewhere. And I don't think DragonEater has the same kind of rhetorical sway that Hero did in that game. But it really makes me not like the direction that this day is going right now.

It’s weird to me that you’d use the amount of time since we last played together to question the reliability of my read on you and then make an unsolicited comment on my scumplay (particularly since 5-10 years ago I was probably better known for strong town play than strong scum play).

The comment on scumplay is more a continuation of 155 than it is of 156

I should note that Hero at Heart is an alt of Dragon

[T3]

I'm not sure why I'm finding it so hard to make reads this game

[T3]

DE reminds me a lot of how I used to play scum back in like 2021-ish

It feels like he's spending the whole game flailing around and trying to get townread, if that makes sense??

[T3]

I quite liked DV's reasoning for scumreading implosion earlier in the game

[T3]

i just haven't... felt like posting. i've been procrastinating on doing a lot of things the past few days and this is an unfortunate victim of it.

i live vaguely in a world i think rn where it's like... gob... appearance...??? maybe??? as the wolf team. i'm unsure. i haven't sifted through the last few pages much yet but i saw my name and it was shiny to my eyes

gth this comes from town way more often than not

[T3]

VOTE: Kyo

I'm good with this

[T3]

VOTE: Dragon

Nah, I actually really dislike his above post.

[T3]

Maybe I'm crazy but some of his reasoning for townreading people is like, word-for-word stuff that I used to say when I was scum.

[T3]

Maybe I'm crazy but some of his reasoning for townreading people is like, word-for-word stuff that I used to say when I was scum.

So what?

Are you imying I can't have these thoughts?

It's just so performative

[T3]

I am mainly annoyed with the fact that I put Klick in charge and he decided to sheep me over sheeping himself despite the fact that I had made a very clearly hurried choice that I wasn't even sure of.

Another thing I am wary of is the fact that Klick's reads have been aligning with mine too well.

But I think I can put this aside and just trust in tha power of tha mindmeld for now. And I do think Klick sheeping me does align with his town meta for instance.

Like sorry but wtf is this

[T3]

I strongly think that DE's assertiveness is scummy

[T3]

gob is very clearly town here because he's gasping at straws to scumread me.

And while for 95% of players that's scum indicative, gob is one of the like two players where it's very town indicative to do that

Smells like TMI to me. Town dragon wouldnt have the confidence to TR me here. You are trying to TR me to get me off your back.

I'd actually agree with this too - in Secrets of the Anukat Topaz, gob made up some reachy and frankly absurd reasons to scumread people. Obviously Dragon was not in that game, but I find it a little strange that he wouldn't due at least a little bit of due dilligence to confirm his subjective meta experience with gob.

[T3]

i feel like dragon could be one of those players whose has a playstyle that's prone to tunnelling.

See this is the one thing where I do have some pause, specifically that Dragon seems like he

could

be the type of player to do this weird assertive high-effort thing as town

[T3]

Some of the issues I had with him being performative were resolved when I looked at his ISO in this towngame, but by and large he seemed far more measured and balanced in this game and less powerwolfy.

viewtopic.php?t=91582&user_select%5B%5D=36973

[T3]

Some of the issues I had with him being performative were resolved when I looked at his ISO in this towngame, but by and large he seemed far more measured and balanced in this game and less powerwolfy.

viewtopic.php?t=91582&user_select%5B%5D=36973

How am I powerwolfy when I am not even pushing implo right now who in a wolf!me world is most likely a town lhf. C'mon you can do better shade than that.

It’s not exactly powerwolfy. Idk how to describe it at 1 :15 am

[T3]

mmm 164 is a pretty good post if dragon is scum

Small sample size although I’ve seen those type of posts where one expresses a desire to change a gamestate to fit one’s individual ability to make reads come from scum

[T3]

Maybe I’m tunneled

I suppose I think that a general aspect of Dragon’s play this game is very very reminiscent of how I used to play as scum but obviously Dragon is his own person

I just need to look at more of his past games tbh

[T3]

fire came in saying things that I had already thought before which is usually towny

[T3]

Like does town Dragon really respond this aggressively

[T3]

Some of the issues I had with him being performative were resolved when I looked at his ISO in this towngame, but by and large he seemed far more measured and balanced in this game and less powerwolfy.

viewtopic.php?t=91582&user_select%5B%5D=36973

How am I powerwolfy when I am not even pushing implo right now who in a wolf!me world is most likely a town lhf. C'mon you can do better shade than that.

It’s not exactly powerwolfy. Idk how to describe it at 1 :15 am

A better way to put it would be “being really over-the-top about caring whether town wins or not”

I don’t think that fully encompasses what I mean but that’ll do

[T3]

but it does feel like dragon has this energy throughout the game where he feels like he wants to be doing more, taking more control, forcing the gamestate into places he wants it to go. and he's presenting that as a town mindset, but if he is scum, then i think that kind of energy could manifest in making plays like this. i recognize it because i think i have that kind of energy as scum a lot, where i want to keep doing more and keep setting things up and improving the position

Yes exactly!!

[T3]

fire can definitely fake a read with this degree of nuance but I still want to townread him for this

[T3]

alright im caught up

i think appearance is fairly towny as well

I truly am not sure of the scumread there by any means, but of everyone on the coalition, I think Appearance has fit the most with what I expect from scumplay. I know that it is common to interpret appearance’s style of play as scummy, but I just don’t think it’s Dragon, and I agree that Ydrasse was townie.

I'm not really sure how to read Appareance. I've gone through his ISO and tracked his reads on specific players and everything logically checked out.

[T3]

Like there were no reads in which I had no idea how he could have got there

[T3]

What implosion posts in 783 here is super vague and you can say this about pretty much anyone. I don't think implosion is super vague as town like this so this feels off to me. Also I want to note that I copy paste what implosion writes and make it about them to try to showcase this and Klick responds super seriously but without much explanation. My belief here is that Klick did not even read implosion's post above and did not realize I was posting the same thing as implosion, and this not reading of posts strikes me as more likely to come from mafia (regardless of implosion's alignment really)

Was this called the 'nsg tell' at some point or was that something else

I realised you posted the same thing back at implosion, I just thought when implosion said it it made sense and when you said it it didn't

nsg tell is when someone doesn't pick up on a joke

[T3]

can someone who has played with gob explain why this is town gob behavior

It comes from both town and scum gob

[T3]

I want to see where gob goes with this go

[T3]

UNVOTE:

I'm not really convinced Dragon is scum anymore

[T3]

20 hrs till deadline

I'm going to be at a debate tournament tomorrow so I won't be able to be on

[T3]

I still kind of like Ydrasse's early play toward me, coming off of Toriel's patience it feels like the right amount of skepticism toward scumreads of me for the right reasons. I also like her early self-analysis. 354 also feels particularly like a town post, i think it's awkward for scum out of nowhere to either put up a 5-town coalition or put up a coalition with their scumbuddy on it. Possibly less so if she's scum with elements or appearance since she said they'd be the first to go off the list in case she got added (which part of me thinks would be a bit conspicuous but from my recent experience playing scum in this setup you do feel like you have to be a bit conspicuous in that way sometimes. Or at least i did). 540 gives me mixed feelings as sort of the follow up to that post in that it is kind of an easy thing to do as scum to throw up your hands in the air, give a couple strong townreads, and then prepare for pretty much any form of the coalition failing. The coalition was 1 vote from passing so maybe this post is like, a wriggle as scum to try to get out of an all-town coalition she'd committed to without having to unvote it? the third paragraph in the post seems really hard to make in that case though so probably if she's scum there was already scum in that coalition.

I think the main thing I probably should be looking for in Ydrasse's play is a specific form of motivation/caring that she had in spades in Toriel's patience where it was like, abundantly clear that even though she was being thoroughly beaten down by the gamestate she still cared about the game. And she hasn't been beaten down by the gamestate in this game but she has been a little out of it and 540 gives me some worries on that front because making a big post like that and then doing nothing post coalition yet is kind of yikes in that department, like it would make sense as scum who is trying to wait a bit to see where the cards fall + who is running out of that kind of motivation to muster consistently.

i just haven't... felt like posting. i've been procrastinating on doing a lot of things the past few days and this is an unfortunate victim of it.

i live vaguely in a world i think rn where it's like... gob... appearance...??? maybe??? as the wolf team. i'm unsure. i haven't sifted through the last few pages much yet but i saw my name and it was shiny to my eyes

I read this and felt like it reminded me of Radio Buzz for a minute - like the tone matches really well and I thought it was scummy, but then I remembered thinking it was scummy in Radio Buzz also and double checked and sure enough that was a town game - I just tend to scumread this kind of post from you because I think I'd seen you AtE over effort levels specifically, as scum, prior to Radio Buzz. But I think there's a distinction to be made and this feels like the town you.

Like when you're scum it doesn't look as much like AtE even though it makes me feel more AtE'ed, if that makes sense. As town it looks like AtE even though it's not really and it's just how you talk about your feelings. I think what I'm getting at is maybe that you force it a little more as scum but that you're good at it so even though you're fudging it a little it comes off more pure when you're scum

I think Ydrasse can definitely make that post as scum. There are still things in her early ISO that give me pause but I feel she has pretty good scum equity right now. I think there are probably things she is likely to do but likely can't fake in the long term with the current cadence of the game as well so I think she'll also become more readable over time so maybe she's a bad lim for today for that reason

VOTE: Dunnstral

His entrance is not exactly impressive and I feel like Ydrasse was scum. I feel like the aspects of her posting that people were saying she'd have trouble faking as scum are actually things she definitely can fake over the course of her being in this game

T3 yfrasse seem good. implo will need to go some point soon. maybr dunn too

Do you realize Dunn replaced Ydrasse?

VOTE: implosion

I don't think his scumread on ydra tracks at all and I do not think this is a town tunnel

[T3]

I still kind of like Ydrasse's early play toward me, coming off of Toriel's patience it feels like the right amount of skepticism toward scumreads of me for the right reasons. I also like her early self-analysis. 354 also feels particularly like a town post, i think it's awkward for scum out of nowhere to either put up a 5-town coalition or put up a coalition with their scumbuddy on it. Possibly less so if she's scum with elements or appearance since she said they'd be the first to go off the list in case she got added (which part of me thinks would be a bit conspicuous but from my recent experience playing scum in this setup you do feel like you have to be a bit conspicuous in that way sometimes

His entrance is not exactly impressive and I feel like Ydrasse was scum. I feel like the aspects of her posting that people were saying she'd have trouble faking as scum are actually things she definitely can fake over the course of her being in this game

[T3]

The stuff about Dunn's entrance not being impressive is just bad and should indicate to everyone that implosion's Dunn read shouldn't be taken too seriously

[T3]

In my mind, town tunnels generally have some kind of oomph and people are a little more 'out-there' and irrational than implosion is being right now

[T3]

I also wonder if implosion/Dunn could be the scumteam but that's just speculation, if not Dunn then maybe Kyouko

[T3]

Like, where was 746 when people were townreading Ydra early? I just do not get the sense that implosion actually believes this tunnel.

[T3]

Do we actually scumread Appearance or are we just voting him because he's not that charismatic and isn't posting much of substance

The closest thing I've seen to an actual scumread is DV's point about "Appearance is doing a lot of work to get townread with no follow-through" but I think this is more or less just a playstyle thing

[T3]

The progression between 706 and [/post]746[/post] is poor too - this is less strong of a point but I almost wonder if implosion decided to push Dunn there because he's an easy mislim as town. That would discredit my bussing theory though. Either way I want implosion gone today, unless people have better ideas.

[T3]

We really need to lim implo and fire

I am not willing to vote fire today, but can you vote implosion?

[T3]

I do not think Dunn is scum

[T3]

gob was a Real Pizza Kid.

lol why

[T3]

I guess this indicates that scum were happy with the gamestate and have thread control and don't want gob to ruin that? bc no one really took his reads seriously

[T3]

It's really peculiar to try to analyze a kill on someone who didn't have any thread control but had strong opinions that were running against the grain.

Nah it’s not exactly thread control, more how much will their actions actually change the gamestate. For example in a recent scumgame I killed Titus and faked a guilty on Bingle - despite the fact that their reads were dead wrong and neither of them were widely townread, they were actively pushing people and trying to change the gamestate and it was a threat to my control of the day thread. Tbh that’s more of a personal play philosophy more than anything else, I’m not sure if all other scum think the same way.

[T3]

Imagine for a moment that the scumteam is made up of two widely townread players - who should they actually kill? They could kill the one or two people who are sussing them, but I highly doubt that gob was killed because of his reads. I think it’s more likely that scum thought that a gob kill would create a more favorable gamestate.

[T3]

VOTE: implosion

[T3]

I feel very in-sync with fire. I’d be very surprised if he was scum here.

[T3]

I’m fairly certain fire is town

I’m fairly certain Appearance is town

I’m somewhat certain DV is town

Dragon and Klick are probably not partnered

Thus implosion is scum

[T3]

Have fun on your cruise

[T3]

This is already weird because the gamestate seemed to suggest that there was scum in the coalition, and I think Klick may have ignored that because he was the scum in the coalition and did not want to rock the boat.

Elaborate?

Then, a coalition with Kyo in it passed. Now if Klick's reads were "I'm fine with any coalition that isn't imp/Kyo" (475), I'd expect him to, well, continue that train of thought considering that a coalition with Kyo failed. Instead, he somehow starts TRing BOTH of these slots due to the coalition failing, even though he had them as partners before that????

This is not very clear-cut at all, given that Klick said a little bit later:

Part of the reason I'm happy with relinquishing responsibility here is because I also feel a little weird about just declaring it {implo, T3, Kyouko} and think that could just mean I'm wrong somewhere

I don't think the somewhere is DV but who knows

[T3]

I actually do like the rest of your case although I have not looked at it in great detail

[T3]

Appearance is also pretty fucking town, in the same under-the-radar way that Elements was town.

Explain

[T3]

I don't want to eliminate appearance anymore. I'm not usually one to analyse kills in great depth but I don't think the gob kill happens if gob was totally wrong. If gob was wrong on his reads, then leave him alive, let him steamroll through his pool or draw the ire of the rest of the town and get eliminated. As scum, I would NOT be expecting the town to sheep dead-gob, so all the more reason to.

Now, it is slightly problematic that gob's pool included 3 people on the coalition, but the fact is that gob clearly didn't want Appearance gone and so I don't either.

I... think I might need to just go for fireisred. There is nothing wrong with their play. They are totally reasonable and full of that townie goodness and all that, but with a lack of other options I feel good about, that is no longer really enough. Throughout my day of thinking anout the game I have swayed a little on DragonEater. There would be something satisfying about Dragon being scum, but I'm still not actually sure that this is it. There is a slight "unhinged" quality to Dragon's play at times that I think would be difficult to fake, whereas fireisred... I could see it?

Elsewhere, I do kind of like that implosion went a bit against the grain on DragonEater by calling him town for what I thought were good reasons.

I do want to be open-minded and so am interested to see where Klick goes on that read. After all, gob called Dragon scum too, but I'm not sure that I see it.

I feel this post pretty strongly.

I've read the Klick case and my biggest hangup on Klick-scum is just that I don't know if their scumrange is especially big - I'm still inclined to believe Klick as scum just wouldn't be able to have lead in coalition forming the particular way they did. I'm inclined right now to default to fire being scum, similar to the sentiment Klick is outlining here, in that everyone else on coalition feels harder and I think fire has been town but iirc they have a pretty wide scumrange. I expect Dragon has a pretty wide scumrange as well but all the little aspects of their play just feel like earnest town too, things like 1149 and the wallpost followed by immediately saying that writing the wallpost raised some apprehension on the Klick scumread are maybe the kinds of things I am more inclined to townread than I should be but I feel it all fits cohesively in a world where Dragon is town.

I think the Klick case paints a very reasonable portrait of Klick's potential scum motivations for various aspects of play but parts of it do feel tunnelly/uncharitable.

I rolled scum in a mini normal with Klick a while ago and he was pretty good, I can't say he led town but he replaced into a widely scumread slot and put up a good fight before being limmed. What he's done this game is a little outside of that but not by much.

[T3]

Currently the only solves that make sense to me are implo/fire, implo/Klick, and Klick/fire. Would be happy to vote any of these.

Pedit: hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I am not sure what to make of this post by implo considering my own post. I'll get back to this after work probably.

Would you be willing to vote implosion?

[T3]

I wonder if the team is Klick/implosion

[T3]

Part of me struggles to understand why scum implosion would play today this way

[T3]

I feel like if he were scum with Klick then he'd have more urgency to get people off Klick... unlikely though

[T3]

Right, because there's at least 1 scum in Klick/Dragon/Appearance/fire

fire is town. I feel and have felt incredibly in-sync with him and would be shocked if he's scum. I have thought many of the same things that he has thought on multiple different occasions and there have been certain things that I've thought but not said in thread but then that he's said in thread

Appearance is town. That kill is baffling coming from scum Appearance and I've also said why I townread him earlier.

There is at least 1 scum in Dragon/Klick. I suspect that scum is Klick, and I townread Dragon more than I townread him. I also doubt that Klick/Dragon are bussing given the very real chance of one of them being limmed and the unlikelihood of one of them endgaming even with the towncred received.

[T3]

Pedit: aren't you the one voting him though? Why did you imply you could see Klick/implo a minute ago?

I'm more just working it through in my mind

[T3]

If my world above is correct and there are not 2 scum in the coalition, then there is 1 scum in implosion/DV and I have a somewhat hard time seeing DV as scum, given his fairly frequent towntelling earlier in the game. DV/Klick is certainly possible but the way he treated Dragon is less likely to come from scum, specifically in 874. DV/Appearance is also unlikely given that Appearance was genuinely threatened yesterday, and in a world with DV/fire I'd expect DV to push in Klick/Dragon more today given that implosion would present a real threat to fire

[T3]

295 is super towny imo

oh yeah 481 was a major post that i scumread from spec. that one's really hard for me to see as genuine

ok i keep running into more of these posts, and i think from spec the biggest thing that rang alarm bells for me about dragon was how he kept repeatedly saying "wow i hope klick isn't pocketing me!!" in a way that felt extremely forced bc nothing that klick was doing looked like it could resemble pocketing dragon and if anything it looked way more like the opposite

and that felt like the kind of thing that i like to do as scum a lot except it was done in a much more sloppy way imo. i like to think at least that there's some finesse to the play

having read more closely now (on page 12) ill have a bit more to say about more general stuff once i have some time to type words

among us!

town entrance

alright im caught up

i think appearance is fairly towny as well

I truly am not sure of the scumread there by any means, but of everyone on the coalition, I think Appearance has fit the most with what I expect from scumplay. I know that it is common to interpret appearance’s style of play as scummy, but I just don’t think it’s Dragon, and I agree that Ydrasse was townie.

I'm not really sure how to read Appareance. I've gone through his ISO and tracked his reads on specific players and everything logically checked out.

Like there were no reads in which I had no idea how he could have got there

this is also more or less what i look for in appearance. i think as scum he has a harder time generating thoughts and so they sometimes seem to come out of nowhere. here it feels more like the thoughts are coming organically as a result of reading the thread, and most of the time there isn't that feeling of being pressured

to fully cover bases i did briefly consider if a dragon/klick scum world is viable and pretty quickly decided that no it isn't. i think like the entirety of everything would have played out differently if that was the case

[T3]

^these were the occasions in which I mindmelded with fire

[T3]

What's the context

implosion asked me

[T3]

I think DV's play today is town very very frequently. Trying to undermine and dismantle a 1v1 between two people on coalition feels like very needlessly anti-wincon play if it's TvT, and if it's SvT then it's more possible but the way he's doing it feels like the way I'd expect him to act as town.

Dragon, why do you think T3/kyo is a very unlikely team? Based on coalition dynamics, or otherwise?

See, I see the possibility of DV being scum with exactly Klick, but I decided to just plain give up on that possibility because I don't see a world where we win if they are the scum team.

T3/Kyo couldn't be acum together because they just lurked for forever with no attempt to get anything done but I guess it did feel scummy for both of them individually and maybe I am in fact assigning too much credit to the idea that scum necessarily would have high WIM or a plan.

Like if fireisred flips scum here then tbh the person I am gonna lock as town as a result is DV, not T3.

I played this setup once before as scum and my WIM was very high, so high that it was very obvious I was just trying to get townread rather than solve the game - Enchant was my partner and I thought it would be absolutely impossible for him to get into the coalition so I tryharded and it backfired

[T3]

I do think if he flips scum I'd probably just want T3 next though if he flips town it might mean T3 is town given how T3 is playing today.

This is so bad

[T3]

VOTE: Dragon

[T3]

dunno if the team is dragon/implo

I'm more convinced on Dragon being scum than implo being scum at this point

[T3]

I was reading through an old towngame I had with fire!scum and I realized that there were a few things in that game that I mindmelded with fire on there too

fuck

[T3]

Actually he made an effort to actively pocket me in that game but he didn't do so here

[T3]

you still haven't really done what I asked you to do which is to make up your mind and have an actual read on the Dragon v Klick thing which FYPOV should contain one scum. It feels like you are trying to keep both options open.

Have I not done the same

[T3]

I do think if he flips scum I'd probably just want T3 next though if he flips town it might mean T3 is town given how T3 is playing today.

This is so bad

VOTE: Dragon

This is really nonsequiter.

I voted you after I read fire's case

[T3]

I do think if he flips scum I'd probably just want T3 next though if he flips town it might mean T3 is town given how T3 is playing today.

This is so bad

VOTE: Dragon

This is really nonsequiter.

I voted you after I read fire's case

Didn't fire case Klick though? Or which case are you referring to?

[post]1285

[T3]

Did it take you 4 minutes to read 1285?

??? idk, I was probably a bit distracted eating lunch during that time

[T3]

dragon’s shade was ridiculous on page 53… no way he actually believes that I could be scum because it took me 4 minutes to read

[T3]

I've caught up.

I'm a bit tired of thinking about DragonEater's alignment in this game in general. Because there's a lack of clarity as to his perceived and actual scum range, and I haven't a clue what a DragonEater scum game would actually look like if he drew red here. Contrast that with feeling like I know what a fire scum game would look like - very similar to a town one, and what we're seeing currently. This description encapsulates why I am uncertain here.

I feel sort of rotationally similar to this, in that I think I'm being convinced that I have a pretty murky picture of what a DragonEater scum game would look like but I think I do know what his town game would look like if he had drawn green here and it's pretty much this picture. I am remembering that fire is a player I have historically figured that I probably just can't read well at all. I feel like fire's reasons for "this could be Dragon's scum game" in 1285 are in essence compelling reasons for exactly that, that the way Dragon played around the coalition is not a reason to locktown Dragon because it can come from Dragon-scum. But "this thing people are locktowning Dragon for could come from Dragon as scum" is not strictly a reason to scumread Dragon, and it's not even necessarily an argument that that thing Dragon did isn't on net more likely to come from him as town than as scum. I feel like the wholistic read of Dragon's ISO at this point just makes it hard for me to believe that it's not his town game, and it's possible that

i

am town tunneling him but things like him calling T3 scum for taking 4 minutes to read a post and his (I agree with fire here) very uninspiring logic in 1348 are, I think, also evidence of him being town because I just don't understand what reasons he has to post those things as scum. The former just alienates T3 if T3 is town and looks really weird and attention-draw-y if they're scum together, the latter is the kind of thing that I feel is very easy to post when you have the brazenness of actually being town and very hard to decide to post when you're in this public 1v1 as scum and you're trying to play the crowd or whatever.

I mean sure?

[T3]

I still don't get how I'm supposed to differentiate brazen scum from brazen town

[T3]

based on what T3 has posted here, I could see him as scum correcting past wrongs by not trying to look town early on

???

[T3]

T3 can you link the last completed town games you won/lost, respectively?

Most recent loss: viewtopic.php?t=91787

Most recent win: viewtopic.php?t=90701 (this was back in March, I've lost 8 town games since then)

[T3]

I won 2 games on alts more recently but both of those alts had totally different playstyles and as such as are probably not all that useful

[T3]

oh I see

[T3]

This sucks

[T3]

It especially sucks that my reasons for townreading fire are purely personal and subjective and thus are no use to convince other people

[T3]

the thing im wrestling with is that part of me thinks it wouldn't really be that bad if i do get flipped today

bc like i currently am mostly seeing a lot of reasons to townread each of the 3 remaining slots, and im struggling to figure out which of those are wrong

and i have a really hard time believing that even if i do end up with a clear scumread, it will be one that im super confident in. and i feel like i can easily forsee a future where i push for someone and am wrong and then it's elo and i probably get flipped and that is probably justified

so like there's a chance that if everyone does have it confirmed that there's scum in klick/dragon/appearance, then they'll find it easier to find the correct solve

but also at the same time i currently have that piece of info and am not really getting anywhere with it so idk

What changed

[T3]

In the world where you/dragon are t/t scum is probably on Dragon and I’m not scum so it’s probably not t/t

[T3]

In the world where you/dragon are t/t scum is probably on Dragon

and I’m not scum so it’s probably not t/t

How did you get to this conclusion???

just past experience - fire lim looks somewhat inevitable and thus scum are more likely to be off wagon

[T3]

VOTE: fire

[T3]

Hilarious

[T3]

At least I was right about there being 1 scum in Dragon/fire

[T3]

I think it’s DV

[T3]

Klick is pretty cleared from his interactions with Kyouko. So is implosion.

[T3]

I don’t have a full or good case but the way Kyouko nitpicked things in Klick’s playstyle was the same as how she nitpicked things in Dragon’s playstyle