Mini 1088: Cookie Thief Mafia (Game Over)

[lewarcher82]

vote: Posionivy

, as (s?)he follows me in the list.

[lewarcher82]

awww come on, I

am

pretty...

[lewarcher82]

Elleran looks like a VI to me.

VOTE: Elleran
Elleran's "I'm almost convinced you're town" is ridiculous at this stage and handing out town reads only helps scum.
It also contradicts his "I'm keeping my vote on you because I have a reason to" a post earlier.
If Elleran believes Shotty is innocent then he doesn't have a reason to keep his vote there.
Scum forget what they're pretending to believe about other players because they don't actually believe it.
Telling Shotty he looks innocent is also buddying.

Drmyshottyizsik is another strong possibility, or perhaps a scumbuddy.
He's seeking towncred for getting us out of RVS when such has not yet happened.
The two of them may have planned having a silly argument and claiming getoutofrvs towncred during scum pregame talk.

I agree that the "I am almost convinced you're town" is ridicuolous at this stage, but how is your detailed analysis of scumteams any better?

[lewarcher82]

i was the first vote and this is RVS you're dumb

unvote
vote elleran

for misrepping me

UNVOTE: drmyshottyizsik

VOTE: drmyshottyizsik for real. Overreacting to a random vote on him.

my vote was real the firrst time, now you've mis repped and contradicted yourself. If your first vote was random why did you give a reason?

so which is it shotty, either it was RVS or it was real, can't be both.

pay closer attention, you missed something.

[lewarcher82]

actually, no. My bad.

[lewarcher82]

sidenote: trying to get out of rvs is not a towntell. It is a nulltell.

mod: I find it very nice when mods put the votecount (updated to page n-1) in the first post of page n, is it possible?

I like it too, but unfortunately, I don't know how it's done. I'll try to update VC as often as possible.

[lewarcher82]

Oh hai thur

VOTE: drmyshottyizsik for trying to start a "wagon".

- WRONG!!! Shotsick was ACTUALLY the first person voted under the exact same statement.

I am absolutely convinced that the whole starting-a-wagon stuff was a joke. I do not get scumvibes by Elleran, and I do not get scumvibes by Shotstick either (guess it's your new name, dude).

I do get some from Llamabrble #37... he seems to be deducing a lot of stuff from a nulltelling situation. It is ridiculous for Elleran to be convinced that Shotstick is town, but it is allright for him to speculate on scumtalk in pregame and scumteams with scumstrategies?
This may be an hyperinterpretation, but it may also be scum jumping on a VI. A vote on his head won't hurt.

unvote; vote: Llamarble

[lewarcher82]

imo, poison posted a wall of nothing. Ll is the one who shows a contraddictory behaviour. I prefer voting Ll at the moment, and I never remove a vote before the player I voted answers.

however: when you guys are done molesting the VI, give me a call and we can start being serious about this game.

[lewarcher82]

(naturally I can choose which case I wanna overstate, right?)

so is it a vote on a scummy player or a vot to get information, Llamarble? vote for scum or vote for pressure? pick one. or pick both, but give details.

[lewarcher82]

Yes, but I do not see a scummy contraddiction. I see a VI.
And I see 4 people voting a VI. A 4-people BW who grew in a few hours.

Poison, do you realise that when Elleran says he is serious about his vote, he naturally refers to Shotstick's overreaction, and not to his own early wagon-joke?

[lewarcher82]

mmh, I will explain why Elleran looks like a VI to me.
First, he makes a random vote, and he does the most stupid mistake possible. When you give a non-serious/funny/sarcastic reason for your randon vote, you should never refer to in-game facts and mechanics. You say: I vote X because he smells, or because

he is not pretty enough

. You do not mention wagons, roles or in-game activity, cuz you risk to be (a) misunderstood or (b) attacked by other players.
Second, he decides to make the first half-serious vote based on Shotstick's reaction, but then naturally Shotstick is not fond of it, and Elleran is unable to take the pressure.
Third, he makes confused posts, that probably carry some players to overstate his contraddictions and even to see contraddictions that do not exist. "Where you serious or were you joking?" people ask, and he is unable to give the only reasonable answer: "I was joking about Shotstick starting a wagon, but I was serious about him overreacting".
Fourth: he states that Shotstick is town. A good player, regardless of the alignment, knows better.
Fifth: the BW on him reached L-3 in a very short time. This makes it likely that some mafia are on it. Now this is actually a very mild argument, because as mafia I would be glad to jump on an early wagon on a partner, being confident that early wagons are unlikely to end with a lynch; but still, using a bottom up procedure, the likelyhood of scum in the BW is high. Therefore I decided to keep my eye on the players on the BW and I had the feeling the the scummiest was Llamarble.

Not very scummy, actually, so I am not committing myself this early in game. But I am pretty convinced that Elleran is a VI and not scum.

@Shotstick: dude, you need to be more active, seriously.

[lewarcher82]

your way of distributing your FoS's is even more interesting than the speed of that BW of yours... my evidence may be close to zero, but yours is close to zero, too. Implying my evidence is increased by the lack of evidence your BW is based on.

a VI means VILLAGE idiot, or at least this is how I use it, implying "town". I normally use the word "scumnoob" when I refer to the mafia-version of it.

You are absolutely correct when you say that Elleran could behave noobish and be scum, this is something I always say, as well. However, the policy I adopt is that if there are NO reasons whatsoever indicating that we are dealing with a scumnoob and not with a VI, then pressure on the player is dangerous.

In other games, in- and offsite, I have put noobs under pressure at the beginning of day 1, but only when I find at least some reasons to think they are scumnoobs. For instance posting filler, jumping on BW's, active lurking... in other words, your argument is only valid if there are other scumtells than the noobish behaviour, and this is not the case, at least in my opinion.

Also, I must insist on the speed of the BW. I am surprised that none of the voters is bothered by the fact the BW got to L-3 so quickly.

[lewarcher82]

EBWOP: post #83 is directed to Llamarble

[lewarcher82]

For the second time in 4 pages someone hits L-3.

[lewarcher82]

I guess I have used the label VI too soon in this game, or I was wrong assuming there was just one.

[lewarcher82]

I guess I have used the label VI too soon in this game, or I was wrong assuming there was just one.

WTF? Darox isn't giving you any scummy vibes at all?

It was a joke. Actually, Darox's situation is different from Elleran's. He is posting filler, and this is a mild scumtell. And his posts do not help the game to proceed. And this is more than mild. So yes, Darox gives me scumvibes.
I just wanted to call him an idiot because I hate self-voters. Actually, self-voting is one more way he is refusing to cooperate with the rest of the town.

Some patterns may emerge, tho. I will think about it after work and let you know my conclusions.

[lewarcher82]

Interesting, but did u think about all the consequences of such a statement before posting? Assume you are wrong; assume we lynch rob; assume he is town; then scum thinks: hey guys, let's night kill furco (because it's a good plan/because he is prolly not just a VT). Then we have no chance to know what happened exactly, and if Poison is town too, tomorrow will be a very bad day for her and for everyone.
Also: you made a half-claim. This is a very risky strategy, too.

In other words: convince me you are right and convince me it was worth it.

[lewarcher82]

I am afraid I have the same theory Kublai has... seems sadly evident, actually.

[lewarcher82]

KUBLAI: if you meant to unvote Darox, you need to make it bold. Currently he is still at L-2.

[lewarcher82]

Lewarcher82. I stated clearly that while Elleran may be a VI, i dont like playing with confusing players.

When did I ever deny it?????????

Lewarcher. Where is Llamamarbles contradiction? I believed i have missed it.

I just say that his speculations about mafia teams and pregame-talk seem to be as premature as Elleran's statement about Shotstick being town. I also explained that it is no big scumtell, but it is all I have (had) to work on.

I didnt find shotsick's reaction overly shocking

I did not either. But I can believe that Elleran did. Did I ever say I FoS'd Shotstick? Dun think so.

All in all, I find your statements far confusing than my activity. But whatever.

Now I move one.

We're all neighbours.

woaaaaah, didn't see that coming. LoL.
Seriously, let me just make a comment on this. Mods in 50% of cases use unconfirmed-alignment-neighborood in order to create paranoia. And in the other 50% they actually put a mafia/third party inside them.

Frankly I want an explanation to his actions before anything else.

It was so evident he was claiming neighbour, that I would not commit myself to thinking his softclaim is necessarily scummy. Bad claim, I agree. But scummy? Maybe. Maybe not.

Here is how: When investigated, girl's club members will not be aligned as a cookie thief or a cookie scout
they will be "girls club". I know my alignment, and by my behavior you all should have it indicated that I am pro-town at this point, even if my concept is above a lot of your heads and appears anti-town. If you knew my meta, you would realize I don't put in nearly this much effort when I am scum, and I am a blathering idiot. I don't know why this is, and even if you consider me an asshole as town, I am way worse as scum and this is not my scum meta. I was very sad, when, at first I thought I was scum. THEN I READ MY WIN CONDITION/ROLE/HIDDEN MESSAGE in my personal pm, which i guarantee is different from theirs. Because we show up as "girls club", i am fucking certain one of those two with me (rob, ivy) are scum, hence why I'm voting rob.

Mmmh... so the point is - if I got this right - that you guys are an investigation-immune 3-player neighborhood, which may imply if one of you is scum, he/she is practically a GF. Interesting point. But not conclusive.

and with 12 people, a 3 ppl mason town group seems imba

actually, this is a very problematic point. 3 confirmed innos would give us 1/3 chance of hitting mafia on day one. But they are neighbours, not masons, so even if they are in fact all town, we would not know it. And this balances things a little.

what alignment is girls club? i would seriously be confused if i was the cop and checked you (if you are what you said)

yeah, it is one of the most bastard modding moves I have ever seen. Three investigation immune players, but they are not all mafia, or perhaps no one is mafia. Like having a group of GF's but knowing some are town. Bad bad bad.

Reasoning:
The way when investigated, people get "girl's club", and the way Poison Ivy said "DURR U ARE TEH GF" (as seen here in this post. That's not what I'm going to start with, though. I'm going to start with PoisonIvy planting some seeds for more ivy... Perhaps I should call her Poison Cutzu for "Priscilla" is the villain indeed. I am going to be pissed if you all do not follow me on this one, because I have proof read this post multiple times and continue to add to it's legitimacy. PI is VERY DOWN to lynch. Read how she is addressing andrew, and calling people VI already.

Mmmh. Undetectable mafia = GF. What is your point? I am seriously unable to see it.

ANALYSIS IN THE NEXT POST

[lewarcher82]

Bein fooled by a Furco-trick would kill me, since he is apparently unable to put his own thoughts in a readable written form. However, I am leaning towards the option of giving this stuff a shot. I explain:

- there is no way we can ignore this information;
- mafia will not ignore it as well;
- mafia is unlikely to hit a town-neighbour, because they will want to use our paranoia to their advantage.
- therefore, it is better to address the question now.

So let us say that we lynch one of the three. Which one?

Rob has posted very short posts. He seems to pay a lot of attention, tho, since he is the one the noticed the mod's mistakes in votecount. Therefore, his playstyle may qualify as borderline-lurking.
On the other hand, Poisonivy is showing some features of aggressive scum. She wrote a very aggressive post about Elleran early in game. She declares that she would be content with lynching a VI, which is VERY ANTI-TOWN. Pressing on a VI has 2 advantages for scum: 1) you get town to mislynch with minimal risks; 2) if teh VI is a PR he may claim. Moreover, she seems inclined to alter and misquote, unless she is able to explain me this:

Lewarcher82. I stated clearly that while Elleran may be a VI, i dont like playing with confusing players.

When did I ever deny it?????????

I believe that a wagon on her may at least provide us with some information, based on her reaction, and she may actually be the right lynch (meaning she may really be scum).

In simpler words, I think that it is worth voting one of the three, and Poison is imo the best candidate.

Poison speaks of two wagons. Fine, let's make them look like real wagons then:

vote: Poisonivy

[lewarcher82]

Why may i ask lewarcher82. Have you automatically taken Furcolows side?
Not that my feelings are hurt or anything. But strong town read based on your previous games.

My reaction? I was just outted as a neighbour and accused of being scum by mod-fate. Lol. Anyway. Wrong lynch candidate. Bring on the flip. But do pay attention to Andrew94.
In other news: Furcolow just overtook Elleran in the VI stakes.

Llamarble! Get your ass in gear and stop wasting your vote or are you delibrately avoiding the recent outbursts?

Yes, you can naturally ask why, and you can also ask if I am 100% committed to this vote. I am not, but I stick to the idea that this neighborhood stuff must be dealt with today, or it wil become an even bigger issue. I had originally edited my post without casting a vote; then I clicked on preview and I saw you were voting furco, so I decided to put a second vote on your head. This, and naturally all the comments on your playstyle I have made in my post. None of those comments is a conclusive argument, and I have no idea about your meta, so I am not committing myself to those reads either.

However, I want ask you one question. Assuming you and furco are both town neighbours, your PM's should be similar or identical. WITHOUT REVEALING THE CONTENT OR BREAKING ANY RULE, tell me: do you agree that something in it seems to suggest one of you is scum? Y/N.

[lewarcher82]

Furco, you are making me have a bad time staying on your wagon. Seriously, what is the matter? It takes 10 minutes to read two lines of your posts, and besides, even if I am voting her, I do not see how PoisonIvy ever showed to have too much information.

Points 2 and 3 are fine, I agree.

Point 4: WTF? It is you who claimed furco. We all undrestood you were claiming neighbor, what else could you have been? This is basic logic. You really cannot see?

Poison buddying with Llamrble: possible.

Where the hell is Rob? He better post really soon.

@Darox & Shotstick: please, write a long post and comment on the last events. Otherwise, you are nothing but a burden. Seriously.

[lewarcher82]

I may have seen something. And I may be wrong. Please, elaborate, furcolow.

[lewarcher82]

mod: I wait for you to rule. Did furco break any rule? I do not see anything in the ruleset about quoting neighbour-talk

I implied no quoting rule to anything that other players didn't have direct access to. (which includes role PMs, any other PMs from me, Night QTs, results of Night Actions, etc.)

I'll go and make the rule explicit. -mod

I will have questions to ask to both of you. But I am waiting for mod now. Also: there are a lot of things I do not understand in your post. Linguistically, I mean.

mod: if you do not modkill him, is it allright for me to interrogate him about this post, as long as I do not ask him to literally quote any parts of the neigh-talk?

I have no problems as long as no one directly quotes

anything

from the QT. -mod

[lewarcher82]

Thanks mod. Then I can proceed.

I have some questions, and I would like poison to answer them. Then furco will answer, too. Finally, Rob will be free to answer, if he wants, but I am not gonna blame him in case he prefers not to do it.

Please answer only "yes", "no", "not saying".
Attention: when I ask if the role description "says" something, I mean explicitely. If an information is, in your opinion, implied, but not explicitely mentioned, the answer must be "no".

1) does the role description say that some of you may be mafia?
2) does the description say that if some of you is mafia, he will appear as a member of the Girls Club, with no indication of the alignment?
3) is the last line of the role description dedicated to the explanation of the winning condition?

eh, asking for positioning of the win con in the role description is too close to direct quotation for my likings. So don't use this. -mod

4) in the role description is any group other than Scouts and Girls Club made reference to?

If you will agree to this little experiment, please follow the order I have indicated: poison, furco(, rob).

[lewarcher82]

MOD: MY VOTE IS ON POISON, NOT ON FURCO!

Thanks for letting me know! -mod

[lewarcher82]

looks like my little experiment failed. I was trying to establish whether the three neighbours had identical messages or not. However, furco screwed up again. There was a reason why I asked my questions to be answered in a precise order. The first to answer should have been Ivy, so that she could not possibly try to copy/interpret the answers given by the others. Furco answered first, and so much for my gambit.
Therefore, the experiment revealed one thing only: Rob and Poison gave answers that are consistent with Furco's, and at least I can see the situation a little more clearly. Furco is very likely a town-aligned neighbour, although he is playing a very poor game.

What's wrong with you? I asked you to wait for PoisonIvy to answer, and I asked you to answer just yes/no. Was that so difficult to understand?

One could argue that if mod prevented them to answer my third question, it may be because that question would have proved that the messages were in fact different from each other, but I am not gonna play the game of wine-glasses with the mod, therefore I will ignore this possible information.

WIFOMlicious! -mod

I will repeat this once again for the benefit of Llamarble and Darox. We are not ignoring the neighborhood issue today. We need to deal with it; if we wait, it will become a terrible burden in the next days.

On the case on Darox. Darox is doing something very stupid here. Because his behaviour is making everyone notice him. And this is not good in any possible case (unless he is a jester, of course). The opposite team, town or scum that it be, is surely getting suspicious.
However, Darox is just an active lurker. Nothing more than this. Not enough for a lynch-case on day 1, and not enough to justify the fact that Llamarble seems to pay attention to Darox only.

[lewarcher82]

Also, since I did not say it before, I say it now: a 3-player investigative town team is impossible to believe. I definitely agree with the semi-analphabet that one of the neighbours is likely scum.

Consider this in a long-time perspective. It will mean town will automatically have at least 3 investigative reports before scum kills all the investigators. And if neighbours did not claim, every mafia-kill on nillas/other roles would grant town a further investigation. This would be unbalanced as hell.

We are lynching one of the neighbours. So quit the Darox shit and comment on my posts.

If Llama keeps ignoring this situation, he will get like 1000 scumpoints in my personal list of FoS's.

[lewarcher82]

The weakness implied by mutual suspicion within the neighborhood is nothing compared to the immense pro-town power they have if they are all town.
Stop playing the genius, Darox, because you are really just saying very elementary stuff.

That your attitude corresponded to a soft-claim was evident. That furco belonged to a neighborhood was evident. That the mutual suspicion is a weakening element is also evident. I do not know why you refuse to respect the other players, but you better respect me, because I am pretty good at breathing, I am not easy convinced and I may become an issue for you if you are town. Seriously.

At the moment, my policy towards you is considering you a jester. And I passionately suggest that the cops - or whatever they are - try to find out stuff about you tonight.

[lewarcher82]

Your call. You can insult people as much as you want, I will keep being polite.

Moreover you cannot deny that at the moment village is divided in:
1) people who think you are not helping;
2) people who think you are scummy.

Try to find a soft claim please. Let me know when you find it. I'll be waiting.

I am withholding information by not telling you my role or any other hidden mod details.

I notice this because I analysed your behaviour according to your gentle suggestion:

You should be more concerned with my displayed actions than my inscrutable thoughts

Say what you like, if I were mafia and you were town I would steal your cookie n1.

Finally:

Please let me know when you're going to stop with the "Scum do this because I said so" and actually come up with some real analysis and reasons.

By all means, let us know when you decide to do the same.

[lewarcher82]

apologies... some shit happening, so

V/LA til Monday, 6th

... I will try to have a quick look, but cannot guarantee...

V/LA noted. -mod

[lewarcher82]

I have internet access from my phone, but it is expensive as hell, just a quick post. I have no time to read all, but there are 2 things that i need to specify.

Darox: attracting attention can be bad for scum if it makes em get votes during day. Your argument is not valid and you are (were?), in fact, being voted. Mafia is a cooperative game, u cannot base yo game on mechanics only, especially in a closed setup.

@whoever asked it: well, I thought that dealin with the neighb meant lynching one, but now I am no so sure, since my questions revealed nothin and the bad perspective of mislynching is indeed very bad...

Sorry for the bad formatting, this shit is tiny.

[lewarcher82]

Ok I am back. First of all Darox, in my quick post from my phone I obviously wrote "scum" but meant "townies"... I can articulate a little more. You say that pr's and scum don't want to attract attention. This is a platitude, and as evrry platitude it is obviously true. However, this does not imply (fallacia consequentis) that attracting attention is good for who is not pr or scum. It is true that VTs are some time more brave than prs, cuz they are not afraid to get mislynched or nk'd and they cam scumhunt. However, the way these btave and active VT's attract attention is BY SCUMHUNTING, and you are definitely not doing it. You are attracting attention by being rude towards players who ask you to be more active; by lurking and by refusing to discuss the game.

Enough for Darox. I am moving to more interesting stuff.

We are starting from the assumption that we now possess information about the role of the neighbours, and surprisingly andrew decided to share with us his own power: being investigation immune. Why did he do that? It is evident. If he gets investigated and cop receives no results, he will likely assume a third party or a GF. BY claiming first, he tries to look pro-town.
My considerations run as follows:

1) There are two kind of cops. Role cops and alignment cops. Immunity to role cops and immunity to alignment cops are two different things.

2) What is the reason why the neighbours are investigation immune? Is there an external cop? Probably not. Probably the mod wanted to prevent the neighbours to investigate themselves and clear themselves.

3) Are they role-investigators or alignment-investigators? An answer to this point may be extremely interesting, since they already claimed to be able to collect information about players, they can be so nice to tell us what kind of information?

3a) are they immune to the same kind of investigation they are able to carry out? This is a corollary to point 3, that will make the answer to point 2 unquestionable.

3b) is andrew immune to the same kind of investigation the cops can carry out?

4) why would a single player - andrew - be investigation-immune? Did the mod want to make him a half-miller? Unlikely. More likely, he is a pr, a GF or a third party. Point 3b) is particularly important here, because if there is an alignment cop, then andrew is either mafia or pr (he cannot be a third party, cuz alignment cops normally return a "not mafia" result on third parties, so his power would be superfluous). If the cop is a role cop, then andrew could easily be a serial killer, a survivor or a fool.

In conclusion, since

the neighbours

already made a 99% claim, we need them to tell us what kind of information would they be able to collect.

We also need

andrew

to tell us what kind of investigation he is immune to, assuming he knows it.

mod: is it a good idea for your friend to start with a mini theme closed-setup game, if this is his first experience on ms? I apologise, but I am not completely comfortable with this idea

[lewarcher82]

No, we are not lynching one of the neighbours tonight. One of them is likely scum, but we do not know which one. I am unable to read furco, because I am unable to read the sentences he writes. May be Vi, may be scum-idiot.

Rob put a vote on furco. I have no idea why. He may be trying to win town-Poison's trust in the neigh-talks still to happen.

Poison may be scum, as she may be town being targetted by idiot-furco or by scum-furco.

I am much more suspicious of andrew. I do not understand his choice. Llamarble, u say there is no scum-reason to claim inv-immunity. Tell me, can you see town-reasons? I cannot.

Generally speaking, no one must out his own name.

unvote

@all the neighbours: do you have any reasons to believe that your night activity would return you the alignment of the target, or just the name?

It is of the utmost importance that we do not confuse

alignments

and

names (or roles)

.

[lewarcher82]

OMG I cannot believe I missed this. I am an idiot.

PoisonIvy: you have stated several times that you did not understand why furco says he is "blue". You stated that the GC's are pink. I am not sure I understand. Please, elaborate on that.

Rob: same question, but please, wait for ivy to answer.

furco: shut up. Your turn will come.

[lewarcher82]

Since I am receiving no answers at all, I will proceed with what I already have, which, actually, is more than enough.
I said I am have missed something. There you go:

I unvoted Poison. This was a bad move. I had missed a blatant slip. I will now explain.

When furco stated to be "blue", I thought that he was using a common offsite-terminology, by whicih a townie is a "blue nilla" (used for instance on epicmafia).

So there was nothing odd in the fact that Poison was unable to understand the statement "I'm blue" by furco.

I was wrong.

I re-read my PM, and I re-read this thread, and I realised that we missed a crucial point.

Town players' PMs contain two words in blue.

Cookie Scout

. I know this because I am a town-aligned player.

Furco knows that too. And the only way he can know it is that he got these two blue words in his message as well.

However, furco is necessarily a neighbour, and neighbours are also pink. The consequence is that they receivd a message stating they are

neighbours

AND

cookie scouts

.

This is 100% demonstrated: if the neighbours only had pink in their role-description, then furco could not have possibly mentioned being blue.

Unfortunately, Poison's reiterated reaction to the being-blue-statement by furco clearly shows that she had no idea there was any blue in the town-players PMs.

Check out her post #134. Check out her post #197. Check ouot her post #228. And again #237. And again #262.

Therefore, she is either scum or a third party.

vote: PoisonIvy

This is a scumslip, Poison. Talk yourself out of this if you can.

[lewarcher82]

Interesting observation, with her giving up and now this, I want to hear from her

implying that you are not contesting my reconstruction of the colors that should appear in your PM. Which is good, since you are the third neighbour.

which settles it, I think.

[lewarcher82]

PoisonPoison, darling, you never mentioned the fact that neighbours are pink AND BLUE before my last post, unless I missed it.
And if I did not miss it, you are not answering my case.

Rob: I do not understand on what you base your trust in Ivy, since you just confirmed my reconstruction.
What you say about furco mentioning red is pointless. Almost all mafia roles are written in red.

No one here likes furco's play. He is terrible. But still I believe he managed to make poison slip.

It is evident that Poison was completely unaware that there was something blue. If she had blue AND pink in her role description, she wouldn't have reacted the way she did in the posts I listed above.

[lewarcher82]

Still, Rob, I fail to see any other explanation for her reaction to the "I'm blue"-statement. And if my explanation is the right explanation, then she cannot by any means be town, and she should be lynched...

can you offer me a convincing alternative explanation?

[lewarcher82]

MY ROLES GIRL SCOUT NOT COOKIE SCOUT. HENCE IM PINK!

@Rob, does this make any sense to you? Is being a neighbour a reason for not being "blue"?

@Poison: look, I will try to make it clearer, so you will perhaps decide to answer without acting outraged:
- I know that blue is the color of scouts.
- If you want to know it, I also have a female name, but I am blue anyway.
- furco knew that scouts are blue, otherwise he would not have referred to it.
- there are no colors in the flavor posts by mod, so furco could not possibly guess that blue was the color of town unless he knew.
- EVEN ROB CONFIRMED ME THAT A TOWN NEIGHBOUR HAS A BLUE ROLE.
- still you keep denying this fact, and you avoid answering my points.

Are you or are you not a cookie scout? And if not, why are the other GC members cookie scouts?

[lewarcher82]

You're a blue? FYI girl scouts are pink.

GIRL SCOUT MEMBERS ARE NOT BLUE THEY'RE PINK!!!! What do you mean you are blue?

Furcolow is not pink. He has said we was BLUE. Girl scouts are PINK.

Going back again

town

, girl scouts are pink. fucr has claimed to be blue.

And now you say you are blue?

*breath* Essentially yes neighbours are blue, because i for one am town.

LoL

you should decide if neighbours are blue or not, girl. You really should.

@everyone: comments? anyone cannot see the case I presented?

[lewarcher82]

@Zed: how is the theory wrong?????? Did I miss something? The fact that Rob has both blue and pink seems to confirm the theory, not to disprove it.

@Elleran: I also prefere old-school psychological and logic-based scumhunting. But when I notice a scumslip, I cannot pretend it just didn't happen, can I?

about the case on Poison:
I generally try to behave as a gentleman as long as it is possible, because I dislike rude people who spit meaningless sentences. Therefore, it is a pain for me to believe that a poor player like furco seems to have been right. My job is reading and translating cuneiform texts, and I can assure everyone that I read some Babylonian tablets that are easier to understand than furco's posts.

Still, I fail to see any flaws in what I have written. However, I will say a couple of things more.

@Poison:
(1) acting bored/outraged/casual is not gonna help. If my theory is wrong, please say so, and explain what is wrong in it.

(2) I am asking the question very directly. Are you now saying that there is in fact blue in your role description? If so, why were you so aggressive and bewildered when furco mentioned being blue?

(3) In your post 327 you refer to people not being open to reason. Still the logic in my case is evident even to people who dislike or reject the idea of lynching you. Can you please explain where am I wrong?

(4) you seem to implicitely refer to the fact that your lynch will be a terrible event for town, or at least this is the impression I get from your last posts. Why? If there are any reasons, and you are town-aligned, you should by all means answer the questions I am asking you.

I will be very pissed if you keep acting like a drunk teen, posting gingles and laughing at cases, and then you turn out to be just a townie who did not look attentively enough to the colors in their PM and didn't bother to answer my questions.

[lewarcher82]

I am processing Poison's answers. It will probably end up to be a very uncertain situation. As a matter of fact, the more I look at the quotes I made in post 322, the more I feel there is no way Poison knew anything about blue roles. On the other hand, her reaction strucks me as frustrated town. I need to think about it a little more.

Andrew's statements in 336 are pointless, and scream "I'm scum, I am jumping on the BW target"; I do not think that the question "why are neighbours pink" will give any useful results, since we already know, from furco, rob and ivy, that they ARE pink.

[lewarcher82]

Are you serious, Zed? Re-read 302 & 322.

QFT:

Zed seems to be unable to understand anything I have written.

Still Zed is no noob. If Poison were to ever flip scum, scumpoints for Zed. Quite a lot of them.

about andrew: are you something similar to a n-shots bulletproof? How may lynches/kills can you survive? And does your survival imply that someone else dies? Just answer this very directly, please.

[lewarcher82]

@Furcolow: At this point we'll only get one investigation/roleblock out of your group (unless your roleblock is successful). Scum will NK one of you or Rob tonight, then the other the next night. So Day 2 is the only day you can provide information. There's no reason not to lynch PoisonIvy today. I think the only thing stopping us right now is andrew94's scummy play.

you forget that, if poison is town and rob/furco is scum; the non-scum neighbour who survives today's lynch will be immediately NK'd, and tomorrow the scum neighbour would be the only neighbour alive. This is way we have to really think about this shit before we lynch PoisonIvy.

[lewarcher82]

mmmh... I must admit that it would be weird to have a mafia who must be linched 3 times to get rid of him... and if you were a survivor or a SK, you would be way too strong; if you were a jester, you would be too weak... I am thinking that, if we do not wanna lynch PoisonIvy, we might perhaps to test your power by making you lose one of your lives... but I am not sure yet.

The roles in this game are so weird that I am starting to be a little worried that there may be some bastard modding.

[lewarcher82]

Fakelord said in sign ups there would be mo jesters or VI type roles

mo = *no?
Fakelord = *FakeGod?

[lewarcher82]

@Llamarble: a player with three lives cannot be a sk in a mini game. It takes 3 days to kill him, plus x days to eliminate x mafias, so if the mafias were, say, 3, it would take 6 nights to eliminate all of them. 6 nights with 2 kills per night means 12 deaths. And this is assuming we never mislynch. Therefore what you say is absurd. I wonder if you just did not thought about the maths, or if you are just trying to build a case against andrew.

[lewarcher82]

vigs can misvig. vig + sk + scum in a mini is a risky setup... dun think so, and sure we cannot wait for day 2 to see how many of us are alive.

Hey, Andrew, I tell you a crazy idea I had. Does anything change when you resist a lynch? Does your name remains the same in the 3 lives? Do you gain any powers? Do you change alignment (u not gonna answer this, r u LoL)?

[lewarcher82]

@Shotstik: since I am still uncertain about what to do with Ivy and her presumed (presumed by me, actually) slip, please comment on the color-stuff as well.

[lewarcher82]

more details please. What was wrong in my case?

and are you seriously saying I am a scum player who has the power of knowing the colors of roles??? LoL
this is the problem with using brains... the pink and blue stuff is simply the result of a pretty elementary deduction, too bad if you dun see it.

[lewarcher82]

lew in mini's the mod almost always sends the scum a pm with the name of the VT role, and sometimes the other. Also if you just deduced the colour thing, and you dont know 100% then why are you so eager to lynch someone because of it?

How about you show me where I was eager?

[lewarcher82]

Which is my case on poison. So what? Pllease, go on, explain. Is making a case scummy? Did I ask everyone to lynch her right away?

[lewarcher82]

sorry your right town would still most likely loose, but it may end with 2 scum against andrew with 3 lives, and idk how the mod would handle that. And andrew if you know you aren't lieing why are you so against getting lynched if you have 3 lives

-scum lynch me
-scum kill me
-scum lynch me again

gg?

why would this be gg???? and btw this is so impossible to be border-line scummy!!! How can scum convince town to get you lynched twice???
and in my lexicon gg means game over? would your death be so catastrophic? If so, why???

I obviously agree on the ivy lynch: I started this and I will take my responsibility.

I vote for the GC blocking shotstick.

[lewarcher82]

attention: if we do not hit L-0, there will be a no-lynch, which gives scum the advantage of having the first kill.

Rob: the GC will be required to share their results and even the paraphrasis of their conversations with town, at this point. If there will be conflicts, they will be evident.

Where is your neighbour, anyway?

[lewarcher82]

Yeah, rob, that was a rethoric question

@andrew: my bad, didnt see you were answering a specific question

[lewarcher82]

@furco: WHY DIDN'T YOU MENTION YESTERDAY THAT ONLY ONE OF YOU GC'S WOULD GET THE REPORT?

ok, I am frustrated by the result of my poison case. Verily. Poison should have defended instead of jestering around, and you two should have been more clear on your power. Since you claimed, do it right. Did you even know that only one of you gets the report? Don't you fucking see how big a difference this makes?

also: if I were scum, and both of you were town, then I would have definitely killed one of you, to make the last one look scummy.

but an even important question to furco: ARE YOU SOME KIND OF LYNCHER?

@Llamarble: Bayes theoreme is tricky. Why are you excluding that one GC may be a third party?

[lewarcher82]

yeah, well, rob, I have asked one question: why didn't you (plural) tell us yesterday that only one of you would receive reports? Did you even know that?

and by asking a question I mean ASKING A QUESTION. Answer better be good.

[lewarcher82]

yeah, well, rob, I have asked one question: why didn't you (plural) tell us yesterday that only one of you would receive reports? Did you even know that?

and by asking a question I mean ASKING A QUESTION. Answer better be good.

You earn a new respect tier: BOTTOM OF THE BARREL AND FALLING
You gain 20 disappointment points.

They did state that, clearly, several times.

ahahah well, there will be another bottom, somewhere. I must have missed it, several times.

[lewarcher82]

@Darox

It keeps people in a room, and we get their name (or at least one of us does). Possibly we all do, but from my reading it feels like we pick 1 person, and they get all the information.

Seriously now. You were right. I missed this sentence, which was lost in the middle of a long delirium. I apologise for that and I will keep digging towards the center of the Earth, just below your barrel. I believe this is the only time the power mechanic was mentioned, and pretty vaguely, too... but go on, keep being nice at people

A non-sarcastic apology to rob&furco. My question was stupid since the information was already given by furco.

Hungry Harold's statement, that he was about to eat his own cookie, may look like e softclaim of some kind of suicidal role. Or perhaps that was a joke, and he is indeed some kind of cookies-eater.... a mafia, or perhaps a sk, or someting like that...

I assume that, being blocked in a room with the girls, he was probably unable to perform his eating activity. But I have no idea what is activity actually is... all in all, it will be impossible to ignore the problem of your name, which does sound threatening to people concerned with the destiny of their cookies. Therefore I approve the request of a full claim.

Darox 480 makes a good point, it is ridiculous to call role-fishing an open question, especially in the present context.

shotstick, please, claim.

[lewarcher82]

It keeps people in a room, and we get their name (or at least one of us does). Possibly we all do, but from my reading it feels like we pick 1 person, and they get all the information.

also: from this only reference, one would assume that the GC's must choose who will get the information. Why did you "pick" rob, and now complain about him, furco?

[lewarcher82]

Have you ever wondered that perhaps I'm bold because I'm Darox?

Just curious.

Ok, this is how it works. You do something brilliant and THEN you start being bold and self-confident. For now, you are just being useless.

@Zed: well, yeah, it is possible... so you think there was only one town aligned player in the GC - the one whose lynch I pushed - and the other two are scum... definitely possibile, why not? Actually, the two attempts by furco at lynching rob never became bw's... I can only say I hope this is not the case...

@Rob: should we lynch Hungry Harold?

@furco's new claim: omfg,

I sure hope this setup was reviewed by someone.

No worries. The setup was reviewed by more than one person on this site. -mod

[lewarcher82]

sure, Darox, sure.

@furco: you did change your mind like 100 times about rob. Please, now concentrate on Shot, summon your best grammar-skills and post your opinion about the half-case we are discussing.

[lewarcher82]

i don't care if you all don't want to vote with me
fail town and a really weird setup is not a good mix

noise, noise, noise. You told you would quit mafiascum if poison were town. Nevertheless you are still here, asking town to trust you in any case, stating that if town doesn't then town is failtown, and you don't even justify your vote on dj. Consider bowling: easier strategies, less wifom and grammar-skills are not required.

Give it a cut and answer Darox's question.

[lewarcher82]

Furco

Reading furco is 99% inference and 1% English grammar. However, here is what I

think

happened:

1) he thinks that his PM implies that 1 of the GC's is scum;
2) he first thought it was rob; then he moved to poison. I thought I have found a scumslip by poison. Kublai Khan agreed. Some other players did not completely agree, but agreed enough to attempt a poison lynch. Poison hardly defended. She was lynched and flipped town.
3) now furco moves against rob again; then he changes his mind after rob posts his own report. The report is confirmed by the player who was investigated.

therefore, a question for furco can be formulated as follows: to what extent do you think your PM

implies

that rob is scum? Did any particular event make this implication weaker or doubtful?

shotstik

What is shotstick doing? He is confirming the result of rob's investigation. All I can conclude is that rob and shotty cannot be both scum. However, if shotty were a serial killer or something - which would be very fitting given his flavour name - we would have no way to know. He could not kill, even if he wanted to, because he was jailed. The situation is stalling. His reference to eating his own cookie is something we must think about. And I am asking a question to Darox and Llamarble.
If he is scum, the statement that he was close to eat his own cookie is:
1) a joke, which he will now try to use to prove he is a suicidal role or
2) a brilliant strategy he used in order to prepare his defense in case his name was discovered?

Elleran

dude, you have been here since day 1, while DJ just joined the game. It is normal for him NOT to know that furco explicitely stated that he had the impression his PM IMPLIED someone in the GC was scum. This is different from saying he is completely sure rob is scum. Furco is chaotic and it is hard to understand what he says, but you should know, like any of us, that furco has no proofs to be completely sure of what he says. If he had any, we would all be voting rob right now... therefore, why are you dwelling on this point? It is evident to me that he changed his mind in the post in which he said he believes rob. You can ask him why, and this is what DJ did and I just did above in this post. But using the argument of furco "not voting his confirmed scum" sounds weird coming from someone who has been here the whole day 1, and furco is so annoying that he is the perfect target for scum to try an easy VI lynch.

[lewarcher82]

so for now we appear to have a role whose role is dying, a role who is a name-cop, names that are evidently misleading, which make the name-cop unuseful, a role who is like a terminator who won't die unless shot 3 times and a weak voter, who cannot vote during the day that follows the death of a misterious player X.

In this kind of situation, the only possible strategy for town is to assume that they are on lylo every day and try to always lynch scum. We cannot afford any informative-lynch, in my opinion. The setup is too unpredictable.

@everyone: do you think furco should reveal the name of the special player whose death would case him to lose his right to vote?

[lewarcher82]

1) Name as in player name, if he knows it.

2) I used "jailed" as synonym for "blocked". The GC's said they close someone in a room in order to get their name, blocking him/her and investigating him/her at the same time. It is nothing new, but I am not gonna find the quotes for you. It is a known fact so far, so do your legwork

3) actually, a little, yeah.

[lewarcher82]

correct: we don't know if they protect, which makes the difference between block and jk.

[lewarcher82]

@shotty: you were a lazy poster during day 1, meaning you were not very active and most of your posts were very short. However, this is not a strong scumtell. Would you consider suiciding right now in order to prove your claim? If not, why?

@furc: by all means, give us your damn flavour justification for your weak-voter feature, and answer rob.

All in all I would like both living GC's to give us their flavour names, since getting to know them would be nearly-impossible.

@everyone: who would be in favour of an early mc, who is against, and why.

[lewarcher82]

Sorry furco, you post 25 posts in a row, you state that you won't give flavour, then you give it, then you insult some players, you write "fuck" 5 times every page... I apologise, English is my third language out of six and I have a REALLY hard time understanding what you write. Think about it: I may be a non-native speaker, but you are the only one in this room I cannot understand.

@Elleran:

For now, I will vote Shotty, who I believe is the most scummy right now.

How is he scummy? Except the name, I mean.

[lewarcher82]

@shotty: you were a lazy poster during day 1, meaning you were not very active and most of your posts were very short. However, this is not a strong scumtell. Would you consider suiciding right now in order to prove your claim? If not, why?

@furc: by all means, give us your damn flavour justification for your weak-voter feature, and answer rob.

All in all I would like both living GC's to give us their flavour names, since getting to know them would be nearly-impossible.

@everyone: who would be in favour of an early mc, who is against, and why.

1 out of 4 points got an answer. Waiting.

[lewarcher82]

No way am I giving my name out, I feel it is very anti-town
Reason being is namefishing is similar to losing potentially for the town
What if the mafia had a scenario in which they won by us losing a certain player?
That is why I should have stalemated Rob, but the position I'm in right now I couldn't.

There would be screams for my head on an old, rusty pike if I was to actually oppose him after pushing the Poison lynch.
Look at it from my eyes, though:

1. Rob is town. I am a jackass for having exposed us all, but I will always view neighbors as null if it's 2 people. 3 people, however, and I feel like it is higher the % one of them is scum. I know I'm not scum, so the % it is Rob has gone up to 50% to you guys, and was already 100% to me. Him being scum or town is now like 80% Yes and 20% No for me, whereas I was 50-50 on him and Poison before. I knew I kept leaning towards it being Poison before, but to me this was like a chainlynch of Rob Capone, Godfather.

Lynch me, lynch Rob, whatever
if you don't lynch me, by God, I hope there is a medic or doctor out there to protect me

unvote
vote: rob

oh my god

[lewarcher82]

This is interesting, Darox. What if it ends up with him surviving and you having practically proved you are a dayvig/daykiller?

@Elleran: you called shotty scummy, and then you have nothing more than his name and his lurking? You called HIM scummy, not his name. You better have more scumreads on him to share, otherwise you are definitely getting serious scumpoints for this.

[lewarcher82]

faking day kills is modkillable

k thanks bye

it sure isn't. I can post anything I want in bold fontface.

Seriously now:

mod: if the daykill is actually darox's skill, and if andrew actually HAS multiple lives, I do expect you to post flavour about the failed killing (cookie-stealing?) attempt.

[lewarcher82]

Darox, could you please list all the "irrefutable proofs" town failed to see?

[lewarcher82]

Darox, in case you did not notice, you are not looking very bright. This is mafia, not "the narcissistic clown personal show". The next time you insult anyone, I will replace out.

Too bad I do not think you are scum.

Elleran is probably mafia, and he is trying to generate some confusion by defending a town VI (you).

I also don't trust Zed: she is playing it very safe, posting very little content.

This game needs someone to quit reasoning about flavour and start scumhunting. I will start.
1) Elleran 119: is KK right or wrong? Elleran contraddicts himself. Mild scumtell.
2) Elleran 124: "not a backtrack, I am just changing my mind"
3)E 175: "nope, my bad, I was wrong twice about shotty. I now think it may be andrew, Poison or Llama" (guess what? The 3 of them are already fosed by someone else). MIld scumtell.
4)E 199: "yeah, well, I criticised furco, but now I vote Poison" (EASY WAGON)
5)E 213: "Darox is lurking, but he is not scum".
6)E 284: "andrew shouldn't have claimed so early".
7)E 326: dislikes the case on Poison. But he votes her.
8)E 341: more doubts about andrew's claim
9)E 352: but Elleran trusts him. Ok, fair enough.
10)E 445: why would you want to go after furco and not after me? It was me who built the case. Is furco an easier target? Mild scumtell.
11)E 454-456: ok, consistent to 445. E votes a GC. But he says he believes andrew's claim, even though Darox, his best friend, does not.
12)E 457: bad! Knowing the every player is notified when investigated by GC helps scum. Asking is bad. Mild scumtell from Elleran AND from shotty. Never out this kind of info.
13)E 497: Elleran sez that shotty was scummy and darox was not! They were both lazy posters: what the hell is the difference? And why does Elleran believe andrew's claim, but not shotty's?
14)E 521: already commented on this. Attempt at intimidating furco with a question, the answer to which is already known to anyone.
15)E 566: failed attempt at answering my point. Basically, he admits he was pushing a VI.
16)E 608: after stating that shotty is scummy, it turns out Elleran has little more than the name HH to justify his vote. Strong scumtell.

Vote: Elleran

[lewarcher82]

The people who vote shotty for his name said they vote him for his name. Elleran said he was scummy, and he was unable to justify this statement.

Moreover, he must tell me why he believes andrew's claim and not shotty's. Was andrew more active, or more pro-town than shotty? Same question regarding you, Darox. I don't see any strong pro-town action in your play so far. So he must explain me why out of 3 people who posted very little content, two of which made weird claims, he believes two and votes the third.

Your posts differ from shotty's posts only because yours are longer, but 90% of your content is clumsy self-celebration and ill-defined criticism. Did you ever start 1 case? Nope.

Stop using the word logic out of place. If the game could be won by logic only, with no inference, then the game would be implicitely won by one of the teams before it even starts. We need inferential, inductive and even abductive reasoning in order to get the game started (hint: look up abductive reasoning on wikipedia).

[lewarcher82]

Darox, in case you did not notice, you are not looking very bright. This is mafia, not "the narcissistic clown personal show". The next time you insult anyone, I will replace out.

Too bad I do not think you are scum.

Elleran is probably mafia, and he is trying to generate some confusion by defending a town VI (you).

I also don't trust Zed: she is playing it very safe, posting very little content.

This game needs someone to quit reasoning about flavour and start scumhunting. I will start.
1) Elleran 119: is KK right or wrong? Elleran contraddicts himself. Mild scumtell.
2) Elleran 124: "not a backtrack, I am just changing my mind"
3)E 175: "nope, my bad, I was wrong twice about shotty. I now think it may be andrew, Poison or Llama" (guess what? The 3 of them are already fosed by someone else). MIld scumtell.
4)E 199: "yeah, well, I criticised furco, but now I vote Poison" (EASY WAGON)
5)E 213: "Darox is lurking, but he is not scum".
6)E 284: "andrew shouldn't have claimed so early".
7)E 326: dislikes the case on Poison. But he votes her.
8)E 341: more doubts about andrew's claim
9)E 352: but Elleran trusts him. Ok, fair enough.
10)E 445: why would you want to go after furco and not after me? It was me who built the case. Is furco an easier target? Mild scumtell.
11)E 454-456: ok, consistent to 445. E votes a GC. But he says he believes andrew's claim, even though Darox, his best friend, does not.
12)E 457: bad! Knowing the every player is notified when investigated by GC helps scum. Asking is bad. Mild scumtell from Elleran AND from shotty. Never out this kind of info.
13)E 497: Elleran sez that shotty was scummy and darox was not! They were both lazy posters: what the hell is the difference? And why does Elleran believe andrew's claim, but not shotty's?
14)E 521: already commented on this. Attempt at intimidating furco with a question, the answer to which is already known to anyone.
15)E 566: failed attempt at answering my point. Basically, he admits he was pushing a VI.
16)E 608: after stating that shotty is scummy, it turns out Elleran has little more than the name HH to justify his vote. Strong scumtell.

Vote: Elleran

pretty sure i already made a case on this guy
why did you completely ignore it?

Could you please give the exact reference to the post that contains your case?

[lewarcher82]

Elleran

dude, you have been here since day 1, while DJ just joined the game. It is normal for him NOT to know that furco explicitely stated that he had the impression his PM IMPLIED someone in the GC was scum. This is different from saying he is completely sure rob is scum. Furco is chaotic and it is hard to understand what he says, but you should know, like any of us, that furco has no proofs to be completely sure of what he says. If he had any, we would all be voting rob right now... therefore, why are you dwelling on this point? It is evident to me that he changed his mind in the post in which he said he believes rob. You can ask him why, and this is what DJ did and I just did above in this post. But using the argument of furco "not voting his confirmed scum" sounds weird coming from someone who has been here the whole day 1, and furco is so annoying that he is the perfect target for scum to try an easy VI lynch.

I understand that Furcolow is a hard one to take well. I am not going for an easy lynch, but merely asking why Furcolow is not following through with his suspicion that Rob is scum. One of the main reasons why Furcolow voted Poison was because of his Role PM evidence (that he never really supplied...).

Meh, but I get your point. Rob is not a confirmed scum to me (which is why I am voting Furcolow currently). The point of my question was to get the information of why Furcolow was not voting for someone for the same reason as he did yesterday.

For now, I will vote Shotty, who I believe is the most scummy right now.

VOTE: drmyshottyizsik[/qote]

"IM NOT GOING FOR AN EASY LYNCH ON FURCOLOW"
"IM VOTING FURCOLOW"
THIS GUY IS SCUM
I WOULD VOTE HIM IF IT WASNT OMGUS
actually
fuck that
only scum are cautious

unvote: don_johnson
vote: elleran

reasoning: even is don johnson is scum, he won't find any good information. He's a flake.
if elleran is scum, however, he is actually somewhat dangerous

Dude, in post #572 (= #76 ISO) you were basically agreeing on a case I was starting; a case I have now intergrated in my wider case I just posted? Did you want credit for agreeing with me in the first place?

[lewarcher82]

Also: I am not cautious to hammer, furco. I never stated I wanted to lynch shotty.

[lewarcher82]

win/win my ass.

there are 10 people alive. This is a 12 player game. In 12 player games, there are normally 3 mafias. If this is the case, after a hypothetical townflip of shotty, if day goes on we will have to assume we have our last ml. And we will prolly be expected to play it before the regular deadline. This is the best case. The worst case is that there is at least one third party, so that we will not be 6 vs 3, but 5 vs 3 vs 1.

Regardless furco's n^th delirium, my vote remains on Elleran.

[lewarcher82]

^ why is this player still alive? When attacked he just backtracks. This, and everything I posted above. More votes on Elleran plz.


P.S. I said I don't think Darox is scum. You defending him can also be explained a different way: scum often defend VI's to get town credit.

P.P.S. @furco: I still expect an answer to what I wrote. It is you who followed me, not vice versa. And I never supported a shotty lynch. Deal with it or prove me wrong.

[lewarcher82]

@Elleran: speculations? Cases are always based on speculation unless someone is confirmed scum by a power role. Please, if you want to defend, address the single points of my case on you, and explain why single scummy actions were, in fact, pro-town.
Also: you are suggesting that since I lead a mislynch I should not make cases on anyone anymore? My case on Poison was solid, and she simply did not defend; instead, she posted stupid limericks and mocked the other players. Weird that you use this against me NOW, when I started a case on you.

@Llama: my townread of Darox is based on the fact that he is attracting too much attention with his chaotic play. He selfvoted on day1, insulted everyone and faked a daykill on day2. His way of defending himself by ignoring accusations is stupid: if a real convincing case will ever be created against him, his defense will collapse in 5 seconds. But for now, I prefere keep my vote on Elleran. In your reconstruction, if Darox were scum, Elleran's defense of him could but be suspicious. In all cases, I feel like Elleran is a scummy player, and that his lynch could provide information.

@Zed: your lurking is starting to be really bothering. And as much as I may be against a shotty lynch, your argument is fallacious and makes no sense to me. How many games did you two play together? To how many games does you hypothesis apply? Which games? Provide meta. And even so, remember that your argument will remain an illicit generalisation.

[lewarcher82]

lewarcher, you don't think mafia would try and draw attention to themselves in hopes that somebody like you says, "mafia wouldn't draw attention to themselves"

yes, but this is potentially an infinitely recursive argument. Now I read Ellrean's posts.

[lewarcher82]

Elleran, while I read your answers - for which I thank you - could you please explain this?

I have narrowed down my scum list. However, revealing my thoughts would only help scum. All this discussion is helping. No vote from me for now.

Don't out any information you feel could be dangerous to town, of course, but please try to explain me how can the results of your scumhunting be dangerous to town if revealed? I do not get it.

[lewarcher82]

1) this is an acceptable justification. Contradict was not the right word. What I see, all over your game, is a tendency to politely agree with every attack moved to you, in order to gently backtrack from the position you previously took.
2) and 3) the difference between changing mind and backtracking depends on the weight of the "reasons" one provides.
4) your case on Ivy was based on the hypothesis that her asking 2 other players to be more active meant that she was actually asking her scum partners to help her. This looks like a joke, not like a case, to me.
5) still lurking is all you have against shotty except his name.
6) and 7) ok. And what is your reading of Llama now?
8) ok, you are totally right on this point. I now realise I misrepped your question.
10) and what is your idea about the GC right now?
11) Nope, I do not. My real problem is how you justified your total trust in Darox and Andrew and your FoS on shotty, since you were not able to provide a real case on him, although you said he was scummy.
12) meh
13) still, do you realise how terribly hard it is to put a player with 3 lives in a balanced setup?
14) and 15) Don't dodge. I explained my problem with this, and you even stated you saw what I meant.
16) I read your 648, evidently. But you said lurking is no scumtell, didn't you? Btw, the description you give of shotty could be applied to darox as well.

----

@everyone: I forgot to say it earlier: since I am not a native speaker, if any point of what I post is obscure, please tell me and I will try to explain... I always remember this when I am tired LoL tonight my english looks REALLY terrible

[lewarcher82]

1 more thing before I go to bed. I asked a question to everyone, which was not answered. I asked everyone to comment on the hypothetical option of an early massclaim. Who would be in favour, who would be against it, and why.

I said hypothetical, so please, do not start a massclaim, just answer my question.

[lewarcher82]

I think asking who is in favor and who against an early mass roleclaim is rolefishing.
Scum can read the responses to determine who is answering using extra information from their roles to inform their answer.

Catching up on recent posting now.

It naturally depends on the way a massclaim is done. And I obviously disagree that asking to discuss the matter can qualify as rolefishing.

Also you didn't even give your own opinion, just asked others,
which really feels like scum trying to get free information and see if the town is willing to do something stupid.

I did it on purpose.

V/LA til 28th; I will not completely disappear, tho

Noted. -mod

[lewarcher82]

10) I believe that the GC exists.

mmmh, well, course they exist, one of them died and flipped GC, so...

Do you have a gut feeling telling you that he's a scum?

nope, I said like 3 times that I think he is town.

Merry Christmas

[lewarcher82]

Do you have a gut feeling telling you that he's a scum?

nope, I said like 3 times that I think he is town.

Merry Christmas

Meh. Then what?

Merry Christmas.

Then I think you may be scum defending a town VI to get towncred. And againt you make me repeat something I already wrote.

@Rob & everyone: we are in a very obscure setup, in which roles have no apparent connection to a specific alignment. It is the first time I find myself in such a situation, and I want to see what people think about roles being outed. We have already 4 claimed players out of 11, including our name-cops. Calling this question role-fishing is stupid. If everyone think the discussion would be detrimental to town, then I take notice of this communis opinio and we can move on.

@furco: you say that scum players are careful because they want to look pro-town. May I know how this can possibly apply to me? Do you ever check the coherence of your statements in your mind before posting them?

[lewarcher82]

^ EBWOP: 4 out of 10, not 11

[lewarcher82]

the setup is obscure as long as even after a confirmed cop report we are stuck in an empasse and we are not in the situation in which we can say "fine, we lynch shotty, he is scum".

Thanks for answering, Elleran.

Please,

no one must start claiming just because we have a first "yes" to my question

. All we know now is that Elleran would agree with role outing; the other active players apparently answered no. I did not answer yet (as someone already noted as being scummy). This is the kind of information I am currently looking for.

mod: I am on V/LA for the next 2 days, meaning that I will be back two days before deadline, which, by the way, is dangerously close to new year's eve. I hereby ask for an extension.

How long of an extension do you guys think you will need? -mod

[lewarcher82]

read my #740. We are not claiming, we are discussing the option.

[lewarcher82]

I will not claim my name regardless
my adjective is nice, though

@warcher, that theory is not originating from my mind. i wish i could take credit for that!

My question was different furco. It would really help if you read the posts before you answer.

mod: I have no idea... in the same situation, in another running game we got 4 extra days, till January the 4th... would it be asking too much?

Since it's the holiday season and all, I'll be generous and give you guys till January 7th.
New deadline is 1/7/2011. Happy holidays! -mod

[lewarcher82]

This was my question:

@furco: you say that scum players are careful because they want to look pro-town. May I know how this can possibly apply to me?

And this was your answer:

@warcher, that theory is not originating from my mind. i wish i could take credit for that!

[lewarcher82]

Back from V/LA.

Happy Birthday Darox.

A lot of shit has happened; I skimmed through the thread and I will now read with more attention, but in order to better understand the events, I need to ask one question to Elleran.
@Elleran: I assume that you, like the majority of JOATs, have 1 shot at several different powers. Since you joined the wagon on Ivy, one would assume you would realise that using your investigative power on either Rob or Furco would have been EXTREMELY productive for town. If we knew that either Rob or furc are town, we could use a ML on the other one, and - if protecting is one of your skills - you could protect the GC still alive in order to guarantee us one or two CONFIRMED name-investigations. Why did you pick Darox instead?

for now, even if DJ is right that the claim of Elleran must be discussed in detail before we call it genuine, I prefere to

Unvote

.

[lewarcher82]

PREVIEW EDIT: @Lewarcher: I had a one-shot investigation ability for alignment. I didn't want to use it on a GC because they said that if investigated, they would come up as 'Girls Club' alignment. I didn't want to risk wasting my one-shot ability, so I did not investigate any of the GC. I realize that if I HAD investigated and it DID work, then it would be very helpful for town right now.

Yes, convincing answer. I wanted to see if your answer made any sense, and it does. The GCs were not clear about their investigation-immunity, and it was natural for you to assume you would have wasted your shot. You would have probably gotten a "GC" report.

@DJ: why is a town JOAT hard to believe? Please, explain and be detailed. Also: Since Elleran already claimed town-pr, it would be interesting to find a way to confirm his claim. Can you think of any way we can do it? I ask you because you are particular fond of this kind of strategies, so you may come up with something.

@DJ(2): you say that andrew may be scum. Do you mean that you believe his claim and he is a multi-lives scum or do you think he simply lied about his role?

@Rob: something is starting to strike me funny, in your posts. You say that I was scummy. But you are in favour of a mass nameclaim? What makes me scummy then? You say that scum can't scumhunt. Am I not scumhunting. Once and forever: Do you or do you not believe that there is scum in the GC?

@shotty: I see no advantage in having you sui at deadline. It is exactly as though you were lynched.

@Llamarble: do you know elleran? You already played with him?

@Llamarble(2): you think Elleran is scum. Do you think Darox is scum as well? Is there a claim you believe?

@Llamarble(3): a JOAT claim can normally be verified (if he is a 1 shot vig, we can ask him to vig someone, and so on). Why wouldn't Elleran just fake-claim alignment-cop, instead? Why JOAT?

[lewarcher82]

It is if you do it at deadline. So what is the advantage?

And change avatar, please. A white "fuck off" on black background is not nice, not brilliant, not sarcastic. Nothing but stupid and rude.

[lewarcher82]

furco, I know you guys claimed some kind of investigation-immunity, but:
1) it was not 100% clear if it was referred to name-investigation OR to alignment-investigation;
2) as I f***ing already wrote, I wanted to see Elleran's answer.

(WHAT A PAIN <----- like my caps?)

@Llamarble: I do not see any point in Elleran's play that conflicts with a confirmed-town report on Darox.

@DJ: you keep promising content that didn't come, yet. I am waiting for your new case on Elleran.

@Darox: ok man, I already said I thought you were town, and now I am leaning towards believing Elleran's claim - even though you don't trust him. The two main differences between my reading and your reading regard Elleran and Shotty. Convince me about Shotty. And tell me what is your reading of DJ, because he is the one player you almost had no interaction with.

[lewarcher82]

mmh... if we had more time I would ask Rob to explain his idea that don is prolly scum. But we do not.

Darox, ok, but we need to pick one of the following options:

1) we all vote NL after shotty flips town.
2) we all agree on someone to vote after Shotty flips town.

Assuming we have 3 scums - which is normal in a 12 players game:
1) option 1 leads to mylo tomorrow - potential lylo if there is a third party who can joint with scum;
2) ml on option 2 leads to lylo tomorrow - potential game over if there is a third party who can joint with scum.

[lewarcher82]

Yes, those are the two possible options. Way to state the obvious, champ.

We don't need to decide this before we lynch Shotty.

What's the point of this again?

The point is we have only 7 days before deadline, and tomorrow is new year's eve, so if it takes a couple of days to decide that we DO lynch shotty, then it is realistic to assume that shotty will suicide (if he really can) some 5 days before deadline. We cannot think we will have enough time for a proper scumhunt.

I apologise for stating the obvious. If you want to discuss the Goedel's Theoremes or something more interesting we can do it in the general discussion. Here and now my concern is to make sure everyone realises what is happening.

[lewarcher82]

@Elleran: Soooo, you are a merely investigative JOAT? Very weird role. I confess I was hoping you had at least a one-shot at vig... too bad.

It is hard for me to imagine the flavour used to describe your third power. How is that possible? You are sitting in front of a cabin's door but you will only see if the player who owns the cabin EXITS, while you cannot see if someone else enters? Also, I wonder where is a mafia meeting or a GC meeting supposed to take place... are scum-scouts and GCs telepaths? Or does a participant to a meeting leave his cabin?

Whatev, this is pointless right now. I just wanted to point out the weirdness of your third power.

@shotty: we are wasting a lot of time and it is highly likely that you will be lynched. Would you consider suiciding right now so that we don't waste any more time?

[lewarcher82]

Lewarcher, if he is not bluffing and he suicides, what next?

I already discussed the options, didn't I? You want to know which one I would pick?

Oh, and before I forget

vote: Shotty

[lewarcher82]

Shotty, why tonight? If you are town, you should know that we need all the time we can have to plan our next move... why are you procrastinating once again?

I start to smell a failed bluff...

[lewarcher82]

I think that if you were a decent town player and you didn't want to suicide, then you should be bombing us with a case on someone you find scummy, shotty.

If you are town, I cannot believe that you do not understand that, in the present situation, the sooner you suicide, the better for town. Therefore, I have to assume that you lied and you cannot suicide at all.

If your claim is fake, you can naturally retract it at any time, as long as you are alive. Otherwise, you should try to understand the situation and act accordingly.

[lewarcher82]

@shotty: your pm must be really obscure... 40 minutes have passed since your last post...

@rob: if he suis and flip town, I will probably ask the GCs to reveal their names. Since their alignment is supposedly town and their role is already out, I don't see any reason for them not to name-claim.

[lewarcher82]

I want the GCs to reveal their names, and I mean right now. Any attempt at wasting time is scummy.

I want Darox to take a position and name some players he finds scummy.

I want Don_Johnson to post.

-----

This is the first big wagon on shotty:

Vote Count 2.7

"Christmas soon." -mod

drmyshottyizsik (4): Darox, Llamarble, Elleran, RobCapone
RobCapone (1): Furcolow
Furcolow (1): drmyshottyizsik
Darox (1): andrew94

Not Voting: Zed, don_johnson,, lewarcher82

With 10 players, it takes 6 votes to lynch someone.

I am deeply convinced that at least one of the people who quickly voted shotty at the beginning of day 2 is scum. Scum saw the name hungry harold as a wonderful frame, and they felt jumping on him was a safe way to lynch a townie.

I am almost convinced that Elleran is genuine and Darox is town. Therefore, the players I am willing to lynch are Rob and Llamarble.

- Rob never took any innovative position, all he did so far was agreeing or disagreeing with cases made by other people. Moreover, he is in the GC, and a scum in a neighborhood is still likely.
- Llamarble on the contrary posted a lot of stuff, but given the weak arguments - mostly semantic - he tends to provide, he can easily qualify as aggressive scum.

Oh, if DJ does not start posting in a convincing way, I will have to start fosing him, cuz I have seen town-DJ in another game (and I checked some of his meta) and he normally posts A LOT of good conetnt.

[lewarcher82]

GCs, give us your names right now. And don't say it helps scum. We have your claims already, and enough names have been outted to help scum understand how to fake one. Whoever claims a power should also claim a name, at this point.

@DJ: I am going to wait for your post, but I am convinced of what I wrote. I have a high consideration of your skills, so even if I am not convinced that you are town, I won't push for a lynch before you are back. But please, let us know when it will be. Our deadline is January the 7th. We don't have much time.

[lewarcher82]

lew is still waiting for the names of the GCs

[lewarcher82]

Then give me a good reason. You claimed your role already. According to your claim, you are a nice guy who finds out the names of people and hunts bad guys. How can your name be scummy? And since we already know the names of Pretty Priscilla (or whatever Poison's name was), Odd Olivia, Hungry Harold and Extraordinary Ely, how would your two names help scum anymore?

I don't want all town to name-claim, cuz some names may be misleading like Harold's name. But in your case, what could you possibly be afraid of?

Give me a good reason or call me scum.
The reason why I am not voting you or Llamarble is that I am giving DJ some time.

[lewarcher82]

then why not?

my last post in 2010. Happy new year, dinner's ready.

[lewarcher82]

Between posts 663 and 706 I built a case on Ellearn. This case generated very little reaction by Llamarble, who limited himself to discussing Darox position with Elleran after Elleran insisted defending him.

Even though Llamarble was attacking Darox, he kept his vote on the easiest target, Shotty.

After Elleran's claim, Llamarble suddenly presents a case on Elleran that is pretty much identical to the one I had proposed before the claim.

I apologise, guys, but I smell some scum there.

Now, it is almost evident to me that at least one of the players who were voting shotty is scum. Combining the data from the reports, we can proceed and identify several possible options:

Data (actually, just very good assumptions):
∃(Godfather) --> ∃!(Godfather)
∃(Godfather) <--> Godfather(Rob) ∨ Godfather(Furco) ∨ Godfather(Andrew)
Town(Elleran) --> Town (Darox)

Options:
Elleran & Darox are scum; Rob & Llama are town
Rob & Llama are scum; Elleran and Darox are town
Elleran is scum; Rob, Darox and Llama are town
Rob is scum; Elleran, Darox and Llama are town
Llama is scum; Rob, Darox and Elleran are town

We need to find the optimal strategy for town.

Since I find it unlikely (BUT POSSIBLE: 5th option) that Rob, Elleran and Darox are scumbuddies, we will have both Elleran and the GCs investigate Darox's name. Make sure that it is Rob who gets the report. Tomorrow, we will check the results and ask Darox to confirm his name. We will then build a matrix and see what the results can mean. Elleran will report first, so that we are sure that a potential GC scumbuddy won't have any chance to give him the name (Assuming that people get the report at the END of the night, as suggested by the fact that furco ignored Harold's name at daystart).

And today we lynch Llamarble.

Important: Everyone MUST consider that if there are 3 scums and there is a third party who can joint with scum, this is NOT a free ML. If we mislynch we would be 7 tomorrow, with 3 scums and a third party who will joint and make it game over. So please THINK harder before putting someone at L-1!!!

[lewarcher82]

My plan is stupid, if Darox is scum, everyone will simply know his name. I should quit posting 10 minutes after I wake up. Any idea how we can make it work?

[lewarcher82]

∃(Godfather) --> ∃!(Godfather) What? Doesn't this imply there's no godfather? And why do you think that?

Nope, ∃! means "exists and it is unique"; it implies that if there is a godfather, there is only one. It is an assumption, based on the fact that normally there is not more than one. So it is hard to think that, if we have GF, it is anyone else but andrew, furco or rob.

Thanks for sharing your strategic thoughts. But I still don't see any real unconsistency in Elleran actions. I see he was a little clumsy, but I don't see any unquestionable conflicts between his claim and his actions. And I am surprised so many players voted him so quickly and so easily after shotty's flip.

Where is Darox???

And where is furco? I want to know his name, since Rob gave us his.

[lewarcher82]

I might have another suggestion. We lynch andrew. If he is not lying, we will know his claim is true and tomorrow we are on mylo, so we will choose to either massclaim or vote NL. If he is lying and he flips scum, it's all good.

Thoughts? Pros and cons?

[lewarcher82]

Hey lewarcher, my name is Brave Bob.

QUICK THEORIZE WHAT IT COULD MEAN GOGOGOGOGO.

I guess I better reread and pick a name out of a hat to vote for. Either that or vote Llamarble, but that seems like a waste of a lynch.

I did not ask you to out your name and I never theorised on the meaning of anybody's name. I am not going to tell you what you can do with your hat, cuz I hate rude people, but please, post some content and comment on the shotty wagon, on the case against Elleran and on the option of lynching andrew. This game is based on communication. Go play sudoku if you wanna play alone.

[lewarcher82]

i dont think i followed rob???

@lew, your supposed to do that at an even number of ppl left, now theres an odd number, and if its a mylo 2morrow, and we Nl, its stupid.

What are you talking about? I check your ISO and found nothing? What is this odd-even stuff supposed to mean?

moreover, go look up what mylo means before commenting on mylo-strategies and using words ("stupid") that are better referred to your post than to mine. This game is getting very disappointing. NL on mylo is a standard practice, unless someone is confirmed scum.

[lewarcher82]

Andrew is our ideal lynch in mylo, since he's either scum or a no lynch + confirmed town.
Unless we reach in that situation, the only reason to lynch him is if we think he's the most likely scum.

Big post coming. I'll try to be as concise as possible.

If we lynch today and we assume there are 3 scum, there won't be any mylo tomorrow.

[lewarcher82]

lylo != mylo

you know, when someone tells me I am wrong, I go check before I call someone stupid. You should do the same.

9 people with 3 mafia = we have ml
8 people with 3 mafia =

M

YLO
7 people with 3 mafia =

L

YLO

we cannot discuss if you neglect the terminology.

[lewarcher82]

no comment about typos reiterated in more than one post and the happy tendency to insult people without understanding what they are saying.

(aura??? mmmh, I better have a shower... since I have no soul, it can only be my armpits that stink)

I will explain my thoughts better. Lynching andrew today is a NL with the benefit of getting information about his claim. If he is town and does not die, he will be alive tomorrow, so we will be 8 (mylo), we will nl and lynch someone on lylo, knowing that:
1) andrew will likely be alive, being virtually immortal and almost clear (or, if scum hits him tonight to steal him his second cookie, we will have an ML tomorrow);
2) if both Darox and Elleran survive two nights, I was likely wrong and one or both are likely scum;
3) the PRs may come out with interesting reports.

However, I agree that usual policy is to use the MLs we have.

I can understand the point of view of the hypothetical town players who are voting Elleran. Even if he is genuine, Elleran is able to confirm a name, which is pretty useful since the only one investigated by the GC so far is dead, and he will be able to watch someone's cabin to see if he exits, virtually unuseful against scum, cuz he should guess not only who is scum, but also who will perform the NK.

However, keep in mind that:
1) if Elleran flips town, Darox will likely die tonight and we won't have any clears tomorrow.
2) it is unlikely that Elleran claimed a inno-report on a scumbuddy, since there was already a case against him. Even if he flips scum, it is possible that he "cleared" an inno to get town-cred.
3) if Elleran is town - as I think he probably is - the wagon on him grew VERY quickly. If we lynch him and there is a third party who can joint, we will be screwed.

That said, Elleran is at L-1. I am not hammering him.

This game is confusing me, but I can say that I agree on the fact that either Llamarble or Elleran is scum. I made a case on Elleran, but his claim is consistent enough with his behaviour, at least to me. I find Llamarble's way of building cases on several players - generally on players who were already FoSed by someone else - and the way he jumped on Elleran after his claim very bothering.

Since we are all assuming that we have an ML, I will put my vote on the one player I find the scummiest out of the two.

vote:Llamarble

Go on and hammer Elleran, if you all think it is the best course.

[lewarcher82]

oh dear, I missed the laptop stuff.

unvote

Elleran: explain.

[lewarcher82]

...I am afraid this is a terrible answer, Elleran...

meh

[lewarcher82]

@Elleran(1): How is Zed town? What did Zed do to be read as town? What did Zed do at all, actually?

@Elleran(2): Saying andrew is scum means that he lied on his power? When did you decide you don't believe him? In your ISO 33 it looks like you do believe him.

@Llamarble: why would Elleran defend Darox so passionately since the beginning of day2 (read his ISO if you doubt it)? Did he already decide he would fake a PR claim? With an inno on his scumbuddy? Sounds crazily dangerous to me.

Has anyone played with Elleran in the past?

[lewarcher82]

EBWOP: it's Elleran's ISO 43, not 33, I am talking about. Apologies.

[lewarcher82]

There was no big case on Llamarble, although, if you read my ISO you will find me arguing with him abous several points. Points that were little, but became important to me after he exhumed my case on Elleran after shotty's flip. If you want, I can try to put the pieces together in a summary-post for you.

[lewarcher82]

@zed: I think andrew is referring to a specific post of yours...

Interesting move, Darox, I was thinking about it as well, and I may agree with your vote, later I will explain why and cast my vote.

@DJ: I am full of work, dunno if I will be able to collect my critics to Llama's activity. However, what bother(ed/s) me was(is) the fact that he was strong supporter of shotty's lynch, and he basically exhumed my case on Elleran after shotty's flip.

[lewarcher82]

I'm writing this post from a train and I am not able to read all that was written in the last hours. The last thing I saw was Rob and Darox bothered by my position about Zed.

I will now describe the situation the way I see it.

There was scum on the shottywagon.

Either Llama is scum, or Elleran is. Elleran being scum doent imply Darox is scum, too.

I find the timing of Llama's case on Elleran susp, bc he jumped on him after right after shottys lynch, and kept attacking him without even stopping to think when he claimed.

However, Elleran did a bad work defending, and the wrong flavour stuff looks bad - possbly looks worse than it is.

We are stuck here. If you want to lync Elleran go ahead, and let us hope we have a ML. I don't trust Llama enough to do that.

As for Zed: she posted very few (23 posts), she never made a case and when she attacked someone, she tended not to vote. She behave incoherently about andrew's claim (check her ISO) and she is an active lurker. I find her scummy and antitown, and I don't like the way she comes up with my very same idea about andrew, smuggling it as if it was her original content: lurker who pretends to be active.

The other player I don't trust is DJ: as town he is far more active than he now is, I will change my mind if he posts useful content, but I feel he is being an active lurker, too.

@rob: if there is scum in the GC, it is probably you.

That's it. I am waiting for comments on this post, and I will vote for one of my fos tonight when I am back home, about 9 pm german time.

[lewarcher82]

Exactly, DJ: Ellearn scum --> Darox likely town; Elleran town --> Darox necessarily town. All in all, Darox almost clear.

I am not voting andrew, I am now convinced we better use a ML, and I do not trust Rob, who is now voting andrew.

There are, however, two conditions:

condition 1 --> furco needs to out the name of the player who, if lynched, would prevent him to vote tomorrow. It would be ridiculous to lynch that player today, cause lylo would automatically become game over;

condition 2 --> I need to know for sure if being "jailed" by the GC protects a player from being killed. Otherwise, if Elleran flips town Darox will necessarily be scum's target, and we will have lost a PR and our only clear, which would be dramatically stupid.

As for the ML: if it is the will of town, I will accept Elleran's lynch (even Darox, who is Elleran's clear, is not moving a muscle to save him, so I guess he does not trust him, too). I do not have time to convince anyone, and honestly I am afraid I have more feelings than facts. But I am still very nervous: if there is a third party along with 3 scums, we are likely losing the game with our vote today.

[lewarcher82]

Actually, he just moved the first muscle since gamestart.

[lewarcher82]

Elleran is a bad lynch for today.

How about you explained why? Do you have any power that allows you to defeat scum without collaborating with the rest of us? If not, then you are playing a really poor game, tiger.

This combined with your incredibly ugly "I agree with Darox on Zed" deal makes me want to vote you.

I explained why I find Zed scummy. However, if you find me scummier, why are you not voting me?

@Llama: ok. It is possible that the intensification of your activity against Elleran is justified by the fact that the claim immediately sounded fake to you. You are correct saying you already questioned him starting from page 30. There is however a change in your behaviour towards him: before shotty's flip, you mentioned several player as scummy, including me, dj, zed, darox and of course Elleran.

On the other hand, you pushed so hard for Elleran's lynch that if he flips town you will have a terrible time tomorrow.

I am convinced Zed is scummy. But lynching Elleran will prove Darox is town. I agree with Elleran lynch. This day needs to end.

but I asked two questions in #1086 which need an answer before I vote Elleran

[lewarcher82]

@furco, I ask it again and more clearly: is Elleran the player whose lynch would make you unable to vote?

@Rob&furco: can the GCs protect someone from NK?

@Darox: you evidently don't like my reasons for fosing Zed but you yourself did not provide any reason for voting her. Can you elaborate a little more? You just said:

Vote: Zed

Scum.

which is no big help. If you have any reasons other than the ones I gave, it would be helpful - perhaps decisive - to share them. If not, I will keep fosing Zed, but I will accept the wagon against Elleran, and you should blame yourself for refusing to cooperate with scumhunting.

[lewarcher82]

I didn't like your comments on Zed BECAUSE I had said nothing other than "scum" and you immediately chirped up with "Oh yeah I totally agree with Darox and can see where he's coming from."

I said I was going to explain later and I did, Darox. Instead, you give no reasons at all for voting her. If you are town (and I am convinced you are), this is a terrible way to play.

Let's try the direct question: why are you voting Zed?

@Rob&everyone: so if we lynch Elleran and Elleran is a town JOAT, Darox will be clear and he will prolly die tonight. This doesn't bother you? Tomorrow we would prolly be on lylo with no clears.

[lewarcher82]

sooo, no one answers, no one posts, guess scum is happy with the present situation.

@Darox: I am still waiting for an answer

I didn't like your comments on Zed BECAUSE I had said nothing other than "scum" and you immediately chirped up with "Oh yeah I totally agree with Darox and can see where he's coming from."

I said I was going to explain later and I did, Darox. Instead, you give no reasons at all for voting her. If you are town (and I am convinced you are), this is a terrible way to play.

Let's try the direct question: why are you voting Zed?

[lewarcher82]

@Elleran: I also think Rob may be scum. However, trying to start a brand new wagon on last day is a terribad idea. We have to pick among Elleran, Andrew and Zed. Of the 3, I would definitely say Zed. I have provided reasons. Moreover, Llamarble says that Elleran is avoiding voting Zed. Fair enough, then we can agree that if Llama's case on Elleran is correct, Zed is prolly scum, as well. Therefore, I see no reason for Llamarble to refuse a Zed lynch.

@Zed: I will now explain the reason why I retract my original suggestion of lynching andrew. If andrew is telling the truth, we will naturally be on pseudo-mylo tomorrow (I use pseudo in order to indicate that the 3-scum-hypothesis is a hypothesis, not a fact). My biggest concern against a a lynch was that, if there are 3 scum and a 3rdP abel to joint with scum, a ML would mean game over. However, in that case pseudo-mylo would mean game over, too, because scum+3rdP can simply block votes by casting 50% NL-votes. If on the contrary there are only 3 antitown players, using an ML is the optimal way to act. Combining these considerations, I say that we have no reasons to go for an andrew lynch.

I therefore

vote: Zed

and invite Llamarble to explain why - after posting his #1136 - he does not agree with a Zed lynch, which should be consistent with his analysis.

[lewarcher82]

Oh hey another good reason to lynch Zed, to prevent her from reaching LYLO and instantly losing us the game.
As for

Darox pushing Zed could easily be bussing because his wagon on her does not appear to have chances of actually lynching so there's not much cost to Daroxscum (though Zed would be my second choice lynch after Elleran).

It'd have a better chance if you hopped on board. How about it?

^ this

EBWOP: why would it be GG tomorrow, andrew?ⁿ

[lewarcher82]

I wrote EBWOP, I meant Preview-EDIT

LoL, this is meta-EBWOP

[lewarcher82]

Zed: if we don't lynch you, we try to lynch andrew and he is telling the truth, we will have MYLO tomorrow. We will likely NL, and the following day, on lylo, 3 scum players will vote you and we have AUTOMATICALLY lost.

These are the claims so far, in order of (role) claim. Correct me if I am wrong.

furco: town GC & conditioned weak voter - ?
Rob: town GC - Cute Clara
Andrew: multi-life Vanilla - Odd Olivia
Elleran: town JOAT - Extraordinary Ely
Darox: ? - Brave Bob
Zed: hated Vanilla - Tall Terry

Don_Johnson: ? - ?
Llamarble ? - ?
lew: ? - ?

[lewarcher82]

Lynch Zed already: she needs to die if she is scum, and I just demonstrated that she needs to die even if she is a hated townie. This should close the discussion.

[lewarcher82]

so, is it a lynch or did she lie?

Elleran, tomorrow you better have the real name of one of the 3 people who did not nameclaim yet.

[lewarcher82]

Llama is right. A fifth vote won't hurt. However, also for shotty it took a lot of time before the mod reacted.

[lewarcher82]

bah

go town!!!

[lewarcher82]

I'm writing this post from a train and I am not able to read all that was written in the last hours. The last thing I saw was Rob and Darox bothered by my position about Zed.

I will now describe the situation the way I see it.

There was scum on the shottywagon.

Either Llama is scum, or Elleran is. Elleran being scum doent imply Darox is scum, too.

I find the timing of Llama's case on Elleran susp, bc he jumped on him after right after shottys lynch, and kept attacking him without even stopping to think when he claimed.

However, Elleran did a bad work defending, and the wrong flavour stuff looks bad - possbly looks worse than it is.

We are stuck here. If you want to lync Elleran go ahead, and let us hope we have a ML. I don't trust Llama enough to do that.

As for Zed: she posted very few (23 posts), she never made a case and when she attacked someone, she tended not to vote. She behave incoherently about andrew's claim (check her ISO) and she is an active lurker. I find her scummy and antitown, and I don't like the way she comes up with my very same idea about andrew, smuggling it as if it was her original content: lurker who pretends to be active.

The other player I don't trust is DJ: as town he is far more active than he now is, I will change my mind if he posts useful content, but I feel he is being an active lurker, too.

@rob: if there is scum in the GC, it is probably you.

That's it. I am waiting for comments on this post, and I will vote for one of my fos tonight when I am back home, about 9 pm german time.

After which, zed flips town, and on the very following day I die.

However, I was a weak player, because after my day1 fail, I was unable to convince anyone to vote my FoS. My bad. I played poorly and I apologise.

gg to the scum team, they deserved the win!

[lewarcher82]

ok so reading through again I think the scum team is Furc, elleran, and Don

Vote: Elleran

i wish i had been awake to see this
you are really bad
this would have changed my mind completely about llamarble

so... you basically threw a vote on a claimed pr on lylo and left...

last post by lew, who is inaugurating the "black list" section on his wiki.

[lewarcher82]

I said last post, but one has to answer a honorable enemy

nope, if I were a vig, you would be dead last night. I see from the mafia QT that you thought I would have shot andrew, but I wouldn't have. DJ and you were obviously scum to me after the end of the day, basically because I know DJ when he is town, and he ended up ignoring the case on you in a too evident way.

as you can see from the dead QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/QE9B95THzyR I had no more doubta about you two. I should have been more convincing during my last day alive, but I simply failed. My bad.

Unfortuantely, I was only a vengeful townie, a power that becomes mathematically useless once we hit mylo. *sigh*

[lewarcher82]

lewarcher82. You were a solid town read. I think that your game was okay but you took on a leadership role for a part and im not quite sure you handled it well.

Yes, I was kinda forced to. It was me or Llamarble: no one else was able to try and lead. But I hesitated a little and that was enough. Also, my credibility was undermined by the fail wagon on you. But I swear, it really did look like a scumslip.

This is also an answer to KK: I could not play the scummy vengeful townie. If I did, Llamarble would have had no opposer at all. It could have been different if you survived a little longer.

Lynching Furcolow is always protown, no matter what role he has.

Yes, I have decided that from now on I will use the expression "to pull a furco" to mean "to do something stupid". On the other hand, it is not like you helped a lot, Darox.

@Rob: you did good, but Llamarble did better than anyone else. He basically won this game alone. I tried to get him lynched on my last day, and I was simply not strong enough. Furco screwed up big time, and it is my understanding that he usually does. But I still feel I am the one who should be blamed. This game is not just about catching the mafia. It is also about being social-skilled enough to convince your townfella. If a player fails to do it when he has a big strong towncred as I did, then this player is responsible for the loss.