Mafia 158: Titanium. Game over

[Telo]

Dang! Day started yesterday already on page four. I'll be reading throughout the day and try to respond tonight so let me know if you have any questions.

[Telo]

I'd like to drop a random vote for two reasons. I think it would be awesome to just guess a scum right off the bat and because I don't want to be on the not voting list.
So I guess - Jun. We'll see where that goes.
VOTE: Jun

[Telo]

I get suspicious of vote trading. So I'm keeping an eye on maenara/pirate mollie and theomaoaner/jun.

[Telo]

Theomoaner, I have a vote placed on one of those people. It's actually the same person you've voted so I'm not sure how you call that fence sitting. Unless you're fence sitting as well.
p-edit @Thurhame, I'll keep that possiblity in mind.

[Telo]

Sorry, I used the wrong word. After 24 hours and 30 posts the best you have is "keeping an eye on..." is a little light. You either have an opinion on the activity or not, your post was just filler fluff.

My opinion isn't any lighter than yours. As far as I know our votes have equal weight.

[Telo]

on other sites, I've seen hordes of people with play so bad that one cannot possibly tell their scum from their town,

That's sort of the point of the game isn't it? Not to play badly but to play so that no one can guess your allignment from game to game.

[Telo]

do you guys triangulate on here?

What does that entail?

[Telo]

I pull my vote to Telo, for being active, and yet still contributing nothing towards actual scumhunting. By actively posting, but not contributing any real opinions and hovering on a weakly argued RVS from days ago, (s)he is pretty easily getting away with doing nothing.

And to continue my 'contributing nothing' reputation I'll just help you out by confirming my gender. I'm a she.
And my weakly argued RVS (didn't realize they needed to be agued since they're random) will very likely stand for a few more days since I'm going to be V/LA (opening weekend for hunting) this weekend. So unless something big happens tomorrow my vote for Jun will probably be there until at least Monday.

[Telo]

Mollie, what happens if multiple groups start triangulating?

[Telo]

Back from hunting. Real Hunting
Unpacking and cleaning needs to be done but wanted to check in and let y'all know I'm back.

[Telo]

triangulation is a very effective tool in winning strategy-based games. I imagine in works on this site's culture but something that I have found to be true is scum's avoidance of the game thread that is why slandaar's vote on PM made sense at the time.



dude, I am the only one who is onboard with triangulation, jun just seemed interested and I don't think shinori has an opinion either way. stop with the hyperbole and mischaracterisation, you are in my town pile for now but when you do things like this it makes you look scummy to me so plz stop doing it!

anyways it was just an idea, I like to start on d1 cos on some sites I am nked very early and I like to try to maximise the amount of info that I can get for my team. this is a team game after all.

I also expressed interest. I'd like to learn the strategy.

[Telo]

Why are we still on day 1? We have a confirmed liar in the town (Mollie was logged on earlier but declined to comment on my accusation of blatant lying) and we have not lynched. I know it's good and town-like to be cautious but you can take it too far.

What confirmed lie?

[Telo]

^^ I don't get why he hasn't been replaced already. It's been four days since his last post. But then I went back and read the game rules and there is no prod time limit. That's probably the reason there is so much lurking in the game. There's no consequences for not posting.

I could get behind a PMysterious lynch. I don't think this day needs to go all the way to deadline just because people don't HAVE to post. If he's abandoned the game he's not going to do us any good anyway so I agree. Let's cut him loose.
VOTE: PMysterious

[Telo]

I'm going to admit that this game is a little difficult to follow.
I see that thurhame replaces harpocrates in post 92 but I don't see harpocrates on the original list or in the poster's list so I can compare posts.
Then I see slandaar replacing thermal in post 155 but again I can't find thermal in the orignal list or in the poster's list. I'm a little confused.

[Telo]

Both players didn't post, never picked up their role pm's. If it helps you, I could put them back in the first post of the topic, but it seemed a bit superfluous to me when I replaced them.

In the future a chain is helpful.

[Telo]

I know, I did it with the people who did post. Just didn't want to clog the first post with unnecessary info.

ok thanks, I don't see it as unnecessary clutter. It's actually helpful as a visual aid.
A picture being worth a thousand words and all that jazz.

[Telo]

I've expressed an interest in working with Mollie several times but other than to identify me as an easy target she's ignored me all game.

I hope she hasn't given up because her level of participation provides plenty of game fodder. I'm willing to vote for her for several reasons:
1. If I vote for her she's at L-1. That's sufficient pressure if she wants to live she'll reengage.
2. If she has given up, we gain what information we can from her flip.
3. I don't see my vote on mysterious doing any good.
I will change my vote as soon as I get to a computer and can format.

[Telo]

Reread the latest page(s) and rewrite, please. Your data is outdated.

I don't feel that it is Maenara, especially in light of her last post where she reiterates that she will not fight her lynch. I don't like the wagon on her and really don't want to jump on it so I'm going to hang back for a minute and see if I can get anymore to go on.

who is standing out to you right now?

I'm still liking Mysterious. He says he'll give out reads after page six and still nothing. I placed my vote on him and all I got was "I'm still here" in response.

That's not good enough for me. I'd much rather leave my vote on him than move it to you but I don't think my lone vote is enough pressure.
For now I'm going to stick with my reads as well. My vote will remain on Mysterious and I'll keep watching your wagon for developments.

[Telo]

@mollie- 105 strikes me as a good player. I like the way he acted when he relaced in. His behavior was very open and free from pretense. I would have been more impressed had he chosen a unique target and given some solid reasoning behind it but at the same time I can't fault him for voting you when I was willing to vote you myself.

My take on jun- her reliance on meta from her newb game does nothing for me. I do like when she says focus on who's anti-town but I'm not sure who she means by that.

[Telo]

I don't feel that my analysis deserved to be slammed at all. My post about Mollie was observant and backed up by her response to it. I said that she'd given up and she confirmed that by saying that she's not fighting the lynch against her. I don't get how that's me not paying attention?

When Mollie mentioned triangulation earlier I showed a willingness to learn the technique and she ignored me. I don't see myself as being hard to work with as much as I see myself being either over looked or my contributions being dismissed.

I also don't understand what you mean by fence sitting. To me, fence sitting means you can't make up your mind (vote). The only people that haven't voted are Mysterious and Pacman.

I'm willing to work with you but I'd like a good reason why my vote

shouldn't

be on Mysterious?
Oh and to answer your question

What does it take in your eyes for someone to be declared scummy on Day 1?

For me it's catching someone in a lie. That can include saying you will do something and then not doing it. Mysterious fits that profile.

[Telo]

TL;DR because I hate walls:

1) Your analysis would normally come under scrutiny because it's dated, as there really is no more traction to the Pirate Mollie wagon. So a lot of your case will be dismissed by most players because a lot of the experienced guys are already jumping on Numbers, and they want arguments for/against a Numbers lynch, not Pirate Mollie.

********

I don't really know what you mean by

dated

She had seven votes against her that morning. I don't know if you can call something that happened within the same morning

dated

. You're right about some people unvoting but not all of them stated who they were unvoting and at the time I made that post I was on my nook which on this forum isn't the easiest to read or post from which is why I made that comment about formatting when I was able to get to a computer.

********

2) Fence sitting is where you don't dedicate a real opinion that helps to advance the game. When town is infighting over whether or not Player A or B is scum, and you go off in your little world and say Player F is scummy and lone wolf vote him, you're not contributing to advancing the game.

*********

What can I say? I'm more of a wolf than a sheep. I don't make apologies for it. I don't agree with the mollie wagon and my reasons for wanting to vote mysterious outweigh the reasons presented against 105.

**********

and 3)

I'd love to lynch PMysterious

, as well as any other lurkers this game. But you'll almost never find a set of players willing to lynch a lurker. Because there are more active players in the game who have more material to go off of, and it's easier to make a lynch on a scummy player than a lurker. Hence why scumlurking is such an effective strategy. Nobody will ever lynch a lurker unless they absolutely have to.

********

I find it very interesting that you admit you'd love to lynch PMysterious yet you're critisizing me for having the guts to vote for the person that you want to vote for. Why is that? You accuse me of being difficult but all I'm doing is what you say you want to do.
You claim that no one would would be willing to lynch him but you want him lynched and you're not -no one-. Present a case against him and see what happens.

Another thing I wanted to add to your point 3 where you posit that it's easier to lynch a scummy player than a lurker... if that's true, what's the incentive to post?

Again, I disagree with you. I'd much rather lynch someone who's not present and playing the game than someone who's contributing and making it fun. It's up to us who to lynch. If you want mysterious lynched but you're not voting for him I see you as the fence sitter.

[Telo]

@Telo: There is an inherent problem with the whole "lynch the lurker" argument, and that is that it is as easy for town to lurk as it is for scum.

I have a very simple solution to that problem. If you're town - don't lurk.

Simply lynching people for not posting is an easy way for scum to coast to a victory, it gives them easy targets with no danger of exposing themselves in trying to manufacture evidence.

It sounds like what you're saying is that people who don't post will be safe from votes. I think that's part of the problem.

I too would not have a problem with a lynch on PMyst,

That makes three of us maybe more yet he only has one vote. I don't get it.

Now are you going to answer my question, Why PMyst and not NJAC?

I already did.

[Telo]

@smashbard:
I didn't say I wanted to be a lone wolf. That was your characterization of me. I don't see any reason to argue it since it's more accurate to call me a wolf than a sheep but I never styled myself as such.

I didn't lie when I said I was willing to work with the town but you seem to think "working with" equates to blindly following. I disagree. First it's not in my nature to blindly follow people and second I don't like what's happening to CF right now for doing exactly what it is that you're asking me to do.

But to answer your question:

can we lynch you now?

you don't need my permission to cast a vote. You should be voting for the person you find scummiest. If that's me, then have at it.

[Telo]

Ok theomoaner you win, you've convinced me to stop posting in this thread because lurkers are safe from votes. I really don't see the fun in that but I guess I'll see you once every three days to post "I'm still here"

[Telo]

So it's been almost three days. Time for my 'I'm here' post.
First things first
UNVOTE: since PM replaced out I'll need to read that replacement slot but my initial observation on this game is: I think it's bad play to reward people for not participating in the game. I tried to get that point across a few days ago and got shot down. I can't remember the exact exchange but basically it was put out there that if you don't post you won't get votes. I did my little 3 day test and this game isn't going anywhere.

I picked the absolute most useless player for us to lynch but I got accused of stalling, histrionics and protecting Mollie. Yikes!

Stalling?

Nope. I was trying to move the game forward by shedding dead weight.

Histrionics?

Not even close. Applying pressure on people to either get them IN the game or get them OUT of the game is good strategy.

Protecting Mollie?

I offered to vote for her in #461. Not protecting her at all and I'm still willing to vote for her.

At this point my only reason for not voting for Mollie is that I actually want to

-play-

this game and she's one of the few who are willing to play. I'd rather keep her around and match wits with her than keep someone who's not doing anything but if the town goes her way I'm willing to vote for her.

[Telo]

also willing to self vote

I hate to see you go but if you place a vote on yourself I'll vote for you.

[Telo]

In no particular order:
Pirate Mollie since she volunteered
PM since he wasn't playing anyway but I'd be willing to remove that vote if/when his replacement gets here and if (s)he does something with the slot
Jun for this comment

I refuse to vote for numbers guy or shinori,

I think town needs to be open minded about who to vote for. An absolute refusal to vote for any player is suspect.

[Telo]

This is bad Telo, this is a bad reason for not voting for someone if you think they are scum, and if you don't think Mollie is scum then you shouldn't even be suggesting voting for her.

At no point did I ever say that Mollie was scum and at no point did I ever suggest that anyone should vote for her.

Do you think team scum would hesitate to lead a lynch/NK you if they thought you were a threat?

I'm not trying to be dense but aren't they

supposed

to kill me if I'm a threat? Since the answer to the question is -duh of course not-. I get the feeling that I'm not fully understanding what you're trying to ask me.

I called you a fence sitter earlier, this is the sort of post that totally evinces that view. You are also, with posts like this demonstrating a lack of commitment to playing to your win condition, this is a big no-no, and in many ways is as bad as the lurking you so abhor.

I don't see how you can with any degree of credibility, chastise me for voting for a player who would vote for herself.

I also find it suspect that you are currently voting for Mollie which means that YOU think she's scum which means that your job is to point to other players the reasons they

should

be voting for her. Yet I come up with a perfectly valid reason to vote her and your response is to claim that I'm not playing to

my

win condition when it's clearly Mollie who's not playing to her win condition.
Hmmm, I wanted to be the hammer vote but this post convinced me to

VOTE: Mollie

FOS

Theomoaner

[Telo]

If Mollie is Scum:
Telo (

His

Her

refusal to vote for Mollie under any circumstance would really out

him

her

as a scumpartner)

Huh? I didn't refuse to vote for Mollie. I said way back in post 461:

I'm willing to vote for her for several reasons:

And then I DID vote for her in post 603 and admitted that I wanted to be the hammer.
So either you're not paying attention or you're lying about me saying I wouldn't vote for mollie.

[Telo]

Either that or you're typing too quickly.

I understand what you're asking on the suface but since the question was so basic and the answer was so obvious I suspected that there was a deeper meaning that I missed. But hey, if you want to lob softballs at me I'll bat them back.

[Telo]

Either you're making very obvious points so that I'll agree with you or we are on different planes of communication. I don't understand your need to state the obvious but if it makes you feel better:

You're right, mafia will either try to lynch me or they'll NK me. Yes, I know. That's how this game is played but thanks for the reminder. :/
As for voting Mollie off the island, um yeah... I should have voted her. Thanks for the tip. Oh wait ---I already did! So another big thank you for...

I'm not really sure what but you seem to need something from me. Validation? What? I don't know.

[Telo]

So you are mafia then?

[Telo]

Might as well continue where we left off.

VOTE: SHINORI

Bad case of tunnell

VOTE:

ing, backed with at best iffy logic, and anti-town behavior for most, if not all of Day 1.

I agree with your assesment. So back to where we left off would be
VOTE: Combina
FOS still on Theo

[Telo]

Doesn't think Mollie is scum but wants to place the hammer vote?

Unabashedly admit that I never thought Mollie was scum but she was willing to fall on her own sword to get a stalled game moving. If she had voted herself or gotten to L-1 I would have been willing to place the last vote on her. I'd already been accused of 'lone wolfing' and if Mollie was willing to take one for the team and die I was willing to take one for the team and go along with her death.

I'd have much rather left my vote on the PMysterious slot which is now occupied by Combina but I and everyone else knows that vote wasn't going to produce any new information.

The reason my FOS is so heavily pointing at you is your continued tunneling in on my vote for Mollie when you voted her yourself. As did seven other people.

Even though I didn't think Mollie was scum I stand by my vote for her as a good vote. If you had reservations about her falling on her sword you could have unvoted but you didn't and that tells us plenty too.

[Telo]

I genuinely believed Mollie to be scum, and as such your

willingness

to vote on her came across as team scum scum

unwilling

to bus a team mate. That on top of the other reasons I have for finding you scummy, leads me to vote for you.

You know what. You're talking in circles. Vote me if you want but pick a side and stay on it.

[Telo]

Oh no, you found me out,

I must be scum because only scum would make a typo right?

(Sarcasm btw)

Was meant to read
...as such your "willingness" to vote on her came across as team scum unwilling to bus a team mate...

Since my FOS was on you way before your 'typo' your theory is once again shot.
But I don't even see a typo because your "correction" says exaclty the same thing that you already typed.

your willingness to vote on her came across as team scum scum unwilling to bus a team mate.

And it still makes zero sense.

My

willingness

to vote her couldn't be scum

unwilling

to bus a team mate. Total logic breakdown.

If you genuinely thought she was scum then my absolute refusal to vote her could possibly seen as unwillingnes to bus a team mate or I could have been a stubborn townie who refused to vote someone who I (to the best of my ability) knew wasn't town.

But since I

did

vote for her how does that fly? It doesn't.
She wasn't scum so your

unwilling to bus team mate

theory should have died with Mollie since it was obviously flawed there's no reason to even bring it up past her lynch.

[Telo]

I'm gonna have to agree Jun, this game isn't moving that fast.

[Telo]

Although a cursory look at the vote count says 7 are not voting and I'm coming up short one player.

[Telo]

Well gee Telo, if this game isnt moving that fast how about you I dunno, fucking contribute more than lone wolf votes that dont help us worth shit!

I don't play games to be verbally abused. Show some respect and do NOT speak to me in that manner. I will be lodging a complaint and if nothing is done about it I will replace out.

Back to the game...
I already did contribute more than a lone wolf vote when I helped the town lynch Mollie. My vote was where I wanted it but in order to facilitate team cohesiveness (even when I felt it was against the wrong person) AND in order to jump start a stalling game I went along with you all.

I have nothing to prove by changing my vote now except that I can be bullied into voting for people that I don't think are scum. No thank you.

[Telo]

Calm the fuck down.

You're the one tossing profanities around and you're telling

me

to calm down? How about you act like a grown up that knows how to play well with others. I don't respond to juvenile outbursts or verbal abuse.

[Telo]

Get off your high horse and answer the perfectly legitimate questions that have been posed.

I do not and will not respond to abuse. If you want to play a game with me you will treat me with respect. If you want me to answer your questions you will pose them in a respectful manner.

[Telo]

I'm not big on the whole swearing thing but... for fucks sake.

Cursing doesn't bother me I'm an adult and sometimes I curse too. It's not a very effective or mature way of communicating but sometimes it gets the point across.
However

Well gee Telo, if this game isnt moving that fast how about you I dunno, fucking contribute more than lone wolf votes that dont help us worth shit!

Cursing AT people is not cool. I'm not pretending to be offended by it. I simply do not and will not respond to abuse. I don't allow people to abuse me in any part of my life. That includes games.
In 673 I said that I'd lodge a complaint and if nothing was done about it I'd replace out. The mod hasn't spoken up so I'm going to do three things:
1.

Rules:
1) Be nice. To me

and to your fellow players

.

Cursing at me isn't nice. I think the mod should have quoted this as a non judgemental reminder to people to remain civil in this game. I asked him to do this several times without naming any names or calling anyone out. This would have satisfied me and I believe it would have stopped the abuse but he was unwilling so I'm also going to --
2.

Ask the mod to find a replacement for me

--but before I do I'm going to answer the questions put to me and wish you all well.
3. Answers to questions:

post 674

- Yes I did post opinions about Mollie. Post 603 is before her lynch and I come right out and say I'm not calling her scum and I'm not asking anyone to vote for her. My ONLY reason for voting Mollie was because I was getting so much crap for not voting with the rest of the town. But it seemed that after I voted I proved that I could be bullied into changing my vote, the pressure (acceptable game play) stepped up to verbal abuse (not acceptable). I could have changed my vote to shinori in some misguided effort to appease the bullies but as with all bullies and abusers trying to appease them only makes them treat you worse. There comes a point when you have to stand up for yourself and say what type of behavior you will and will not accept from people or they will treat you as poorly as you allow them to. Why is my vote not on shinori? Because I don't think shinori is town. I think people are being strong armed onto that wagon by Combina and smash.

post 675

-I never said I was bored with the game. In fact I'm not. Even with my three day lurker test I'm one of the most consistent posters in this thread. I wasn't complaining about the game at all. I was simply and correctly pointing out to Jun that there's really no good reason to be voting PM when he's been replaced. It's not like the thread is moving so quickly that she'd miss it. Smash, you felt that it was ok for you to chastise Jun in post 664 but when I agree with you two posts later you flip your wig and go off on me for what? For agreeing with you that Jun should be paying attention to the game? I won't be here for the answer but how about you explain why my agreeing with you caused you to flip out on me.

post 676

- My vote wasn't on a random ass person. It was on the person I thought was scummiest. Your assertation that I never do anything to help out is wrong too since I helped in the Mollie vote. Read my post 461. That's me being willing to go along with the group.

Telo, I'm only so hard on you because you have the most potentiol to be a protown player and it frustrates me to see you waste it by doing nothing.

Yeah you know I'm town because you're scum. I proved myself maleable when I switched my vote to Mollie so you thought you'd see if you could get me to switch to shinori by increasing the pressure. However even you know you crossed the line and now you're trying to make yourself look reasonable. It's the whole

'you brought that beating on yourself'

defense that all abusers use. You lost control of yourself because of my actions right?

[Telo]

Because I don't think shinori is town.

This sentence should either read
Because I think shinori is town
OR
Because I don't think shinori is scum

[Telo]

I thought I was going to be replaced first and I was going to wait until I had been to say anything but appearantly I won't be allowed to until the game is done which could be months from now so I figure the only 'legal' way to do this is in the game.

So smash, as soon as I was replaced I was gonna pm you but as that's against the rules just wanted to let you know your apology was accepted and total unneccesary. I wasn't bucking for an apology or trying to call out any individuals. I was looking for a 'ruling' on what was considered abusive/crossing the line and what wasn't.

In other words I'm not replacing out because of you or any other player. I'm replacing out because of my own standards of what's acceptable and what isn't.

And combina... you use the term

rage

quit
You use that word but I don't think it means what you think it means. When you're the one throwing around profanities, it rings pretty hollow for you to accuse me of rage.

[Telo]

VOTE: Jun

[Telo]

[]

VOTE: Jun

I thought you were replacing out.

So did I since last week. I asked the mod why he replaced the other guy even though I asked first. He said it was so he didn't have to change his sig. I have gotten crap over replacing out of this game and I haven't even been replaced so.
VOTE: maenara