Mini Normal 1609: The Case Of Doctor Pepper (Game Over)

[Green Crayons]

Sup.

I'm replacing Rambler.

I got my role PM this morning. Not sure why DP didn't announce my replacement in 581. Jumping in now because we're L-2 or L-1 (I thought L-1 from a quick skim), and I wanted to say something before that went down.

Would appreciate some time to read the thread and put in two cents before a lynch.

[Green Crayons]

OH MAN, THIS GAME.

Here are my thoughts (subsequent posts will be shorter, because I will not be commenting on 24 pages) (yo I bolded names so at least skim for your name if you want I don't care whatever):

- w/r/t

TTH

versus

BBT

, the annoyed neighbors, I would perfer lynching TTH. But if we're only going off of the fact that they are neighbors, and TTH's third post in the QT, I don't want to lynch either.

- lol @ people getting suspicious of players voting/suspecting lurkers and active lurkers.

-

Anatole

and

Flubber

look and feel town.

Boon

and

Doogal

, too, maybe. I'm going to throw

Rufflig

into the maybe town bag, as well.

- lol @

wake

versus

Anatole

. Wake comes out looking worse by being super active about things ranging from really inane points to bad theories to blatant misunderstanding of what Anatole is saying. Is this wake's "divisive" play style TTH went on about? Ultimately looks like town versus town, but ~*~ who knows ~*~ .

-----

-

GreyICE

's excessive hostility towards Boon (noted by Wake), and invoking a non-scum kill (noted by Boon), is slightly suspicious considering the time within the game it occurred.

-

GreyICE

's poorly done research on Anatole's history with neighbors is null, potentially slightly town. His Great Retreat from the thread after being called out may be embarrassed town.

-----

@Wake:

- Do you normally do these individual-player write ups, and so quickly into D1? Also, why'd you drop the practice so quickly?

- Your theory that both BBT and TTH are scum, and are quoting each other from a scum QT, was something I caught you suggest in a off-hand way at the very beginning of the neighbor business, and then several pages later you went all-in on the theory. Any basis for this suspicion other than pure speculation?

- You said:

I do. I've played enough games over the years to know when something isn't quite adding up. Should TTH flip Scum, I would certainly suspect you of being her Scum partner because of your role in trying to get everyone else to stop digging at the discrepancy.

Why the appeal to (your) authority?

Explain the contradictory actions according to your theory: BBT/TTH first bring suspicion upon one another (so that when one flips scum neighbor, the other will look like the town neighbor), but then attempt to placate that suspicion and

not

get each other lynched.

-----

@Csareo

:

- In Post 294 you say wake "appears to be right," but then you recognize the mod actually undercuts wake's position. You also appear to have missed TTH's Post 283 and wake's Post 288 further undercutting your approval of wake's speculation.

Care to comment?

- Whoa calm down on your buddying with wake, you're making it so darn obvious. (Post 294, Post 296, Post300, Post 304, Post 305, Post 308.)

- lol, whoa you're really going whole hog on this buddying wake business. (Post 350.) Okay, whatevs.

- Appears to set up a one-two back to back lynch of BBT and TTH (Post 400, Post 401, Post 403), and doesn't seem to care if they're town so long as he finally gets to know the mechanics of the neighbor role (Post 403 and Post 407).

-----

And here is my vote: UNVOTE: wake, VOTE: Csareo.

If Csareo is scum, wake is likely town.

[Green Crayons]

I don't like the "If Csareo is scum, wake is town".
If I flip town, then what, you'll lynch wake.
It seems to "scum motivated", and in actuality, there's nothing to support this line of reasoning.

. . . .

My friend, that is the contradiction of the day.

If your case is built on me buddying with wake, why would wake be town if I flip scum

?
Obvious what just happened, you know I'll flip town, and will have a base reason to lynch wake tommorow.
Scum fuck ups are hilarious, aren't they

What supports my line of reasoning of if Csareo is scum, then wake is likely town? That would be your blatant buddying with wake.

If you flip town, that is a null on wake's alignment. Your buddying is you attempting to align yourself with another player, which is scummy.

The way buddying works is if you are scum, and the other player being buddied is town, then when the other player dies you look good for having not suspected a town player. If you flip scum, then your buddying attempts make wake look town. If wake flip scum, then your buddying attempts make you look town because scum wouldn't buddy their teammate (putting WIFOM aside). But if you flip town, then the entire buddying bit is null w/r/t wake.

Very basic scum play 101. Don't know why you're making convoluted and wrong extrapolations from that (that if you flip scum, somehow that means diddly about wake's alignment). Unless if you're scum, trying to be angry about something that isn't even a thing.



The rest of your post is hyper aggressive and defensive. Like, town can be those things, but they generally needed to be prodded about it. You just exploded from one post. Scummy.

[Green Crayons]

Don't know why you're making convoluted and wrong extrapolations from that (that if you flip

scum

town

, somehow that means diddly about wake's alignment).

Fixed.

[Green Crayons]

It's . . . as if . . . my basis for voting you . . . was not confined to only your buddying of wake. Heh.


I'm not reading wake as scum, so that's a cool misrep. (In 600 I said he looks like possible town.)


I'm not going to get into a quote war with you. A lot of your little snips about my post are misconstruing what I said, misunderstanding what I said, or are really not important.

[Green Crayons]

w/r/t justifying ALL my reads (thanks for the caps now I now you didn't mean only some of them):

Uh, no? It's not relevant or helpful to go into full detail about how I feel about every single player, and why. It makes for pretty good fodder for scum to make a big fuss about irrelevant discussion, though.

-----

w/r/t BBT:

Everything about BBT reads to me as over-excited town so I don't plan on voting him unless some new shit comes to light. It's also unlikely if he's town that he has another role to claim besides neighbor so it's probably a dead end road.

Wouldn't over excited town be less defensive and more tunnel-y?

I would think it would depend on the player. He seemed genuinely upset he was outed by his neighbor and I think

he thinks

he keeps seeing all of these scum tells and is going after them.

[Green Crayons]

Man you're really trying to make this buddying thing harder than it actually is.

[Green Crayons]

@TTH:

- I don't happen to have a solid read on TTH or BBT (hence I don't want to lynch either one), and never claimed to. But simply from the neighbor discussion, TTH comes out worse than BBT and therefore IF that was what we were going to pit the lynch contenders as, I would prefer TTH over BBT.

Whoo boy the neighbor discussion took up several pages, but amazingly there's not much to glean from it in terms of TTH v. BBT.

- Wake may be town! Wake v. Anatole looks like town v. town. But then again, I asked wake a bunch of questions, in the hopes of further discerning my opinion of him. Stay tuned.

- You said:

When you think about the case and strip it to its core, it consists of: buddying Wake and "lining up lynches" of the neighbors.

Yup.

- You said:

Csareo is hardly the only one guilty of advocating a lynch sequence. Off the top of my head, I recall BBT, Wake, and Anatole advocating a sequence lynch at some point ("if one of them flips town, lynch the other one" or something to that effect).

Csareo's Posts 350 through 407 read like scum trying to polish a turd of a reason to lynch BBT and TTH back to back. Other players who mentioned the possibility did so on the basis of a bad theory that was more in the abstract than a solid push (wake) or under the caveat that he is actually town (BBT) -- so not really the same thing.

- Csareo's jumping in to defend wake at a time when the wake v. Anatole argument was a blood red boil looks opportunistic and suspicious, and reading through it caught my eye.

[Green Crayons]

Oh, w/r/t "excessive hostility" being alignment indicative -- it can be the easiest emotion to fake and therefore a scum can easily look like flustered/angry/annoyed town.

GreyICE's hostility towards Boon came out of nowhere, and looked manufactured. Someone later on talked about how GreyICE apparently just HATES FUN AND FUNNY GUYS and therefore this helped explain his adverse reaction to Boon's play, meaning GreyICE's hostility towards Boon was pretty minimal in terms of being insightful.

[Green Crayons]

Oh, further clarification:

- You said:

When you think about the case and strip it to its core, it consists of: buddying Wake and "lining up lynches" of the neighbors.

Yup.

That, of course, was simply for my vote as it then existed. Since that time, there's Csareo excessive hostility/defensiveness and his crazy wrong silver bullet about buddying.

Also this is downright adorable scum melodrama:

That contradiction was so outright blatant.
Please lynch him tommorow, as I'll probs be NK'd

[Green Crayons]

You're just taking things and saying they are scum
"Greyice is scum because his reaction was fake"
"Your buddying was scum"
"Downright adorable scum melodrama"

One of these things is not like the others.

(Hint: you're misrepresenting what I said about GreyICE by blowing out of proportion my suspicion of him, and the basis of that suspicion.)

(Hint x2: contrast that with: your buddying

was

suspicious, and your "woe is me I'm going to get NKed you guys!" melodrama

is

scummy.)

[Green Crayons]

CRAYONS IT'S A TRAP

@Crayons:

NOOOOOO I TOLD YOU IT WAS A TRAP GET OUT OF THERE NOW

Aw, man. I thought you were just referencing the pop culture phenomenon of a rubber suited crustacean, which is never not funny.

[Green Crayons]

The fact that greencrayons and ruffling refuse to elaborate on BBT show's he's being protected.

lol, I've elaborated on BBT, glad you're ~*~ READING THE THREAD ~*~.

w/r/t BBT:

Everything about BBT reads to me as over-excited town so I don't plan on voting him unless some new shit comes to light. It's also unlikely if he's town that he has another role to claim besides neighbor so it's probably a dead end road.

Wouldn't over excited town be less defensive and more tunnel-y?

I would think it would depend on the player. He seemed genuinely upset he was outed by his neighbor and I think

he thinks

he keeps seeing all of these scum tells and is going after them.

You also appear to now be complaining that Ruffling isn't answering on BBT's behalf. Kind of a Catch-22, because it's pretty poor play for someone (Ruffling) to jump in and address things before the player (BBT) to whom the comments/questions are addressed be able to respond.


Here, I'll add another reason to my vote: you're grasping at all the straws to vilify those who disagree with your BBT "suspicions." Yeah, the scare quotes are there on purpose, because your stated bases to lynch BBT are bad.

[Green Crayons]

Now I'm not your typical lamer replacee who just waltzes into the thread making a big ass post complete with chronological boring commentary of no value on mundane things. *winks at Green Crayons*

*blush* You noticed?

[Green Crayons]

(TBH I thought I was faulted for not including a whole bunch of mundane commentary.)

[Green Crayons]

Every time someone gets into an argument with Csaero, baby jesus gets smothered with a pillow in an alternate universe.

Blergh.

I take it you've played with him before, or are you just talking about within this game?

[Green Crayons]

@Omph:

Do you believe Csareo scum slipped?

No. I think actual slips are pretty rare, and his "when" instead of "of" is not a sufficiently clear indication of a slip, particularly in light of BBT just having said that he wanted to be lynched to show everyone that he was town (or something along those lines).

That said, I think that BBT's insistence on looking for scum slips (with TTH, Csareo) is further proof of:

w/r/t BBT:

Everything about BBT reads to me as over-excited town so I don't plan on voting him unless some new shit comes to light. It's also unlikely if he's town that he has another role to claim besides neighbor so it's probably a dead end road.

Wouldn't over excited town be less defensive and more tunnel-y?

I would think it would depend on the player. He seemed genuinely upset he was outed by his neighbor and I think

he thinks

he keeps seeing all of these scum tells and is going after them.

-----

1.

Green Crayon, how did you go about commenting on the game and its players? Did you read the entire thread first and then make summaries of your thoughts and feelings? Did you do ISOs of everyone and then wrote about them? Did you write notes while reading through? I want to know your process. Be specific, please.

I started on Page 1, and read straight through until Page 24. No ISOing.

When I began, I started making notes as to my reactions to things as they were happening. Hence (this final result was the consequence of modifications, as noted below):

- w/r/t

TTH

versus

BBT

, the annoyed neighbors, I would perfer lynching TTH. But if we're only going off of the fact that they are neighbors, and TTH's third post in the QT, I don't want to lynch either.

- lol @ people getting suspicious of players voting/suspecting lurkers and active lurkers.

-

Anatole

and

Flubber

look and feel town.

Boon

and

Doogal

, too, maybe. I'm going to throw

Rufflig

into the maybe town bag, as well.

- lol @

wake

versus

Anatole

. Wake comes out looking worse by being super active about things ranging from really inane points to bad theories to blatant misunderstanding of what Anatole is saying. Is this wake's "divisive" play style TTH went on about? Ultimately looks like town versus town, but ~*~ who knows ~*~ .

My plan was to simply do a quick list of reactions, but that fell through because I started to have several observations about/questions for wake. So I pulled my wake observations out of the mix of sequential reactions, and made it its own section. Hence:

@Wake:

- Do you normally do these individual-player write ups, and so quickly into D1? Also, why'd you drop the practice so quickly?

- Your theory that both BBT and TTH are scum, and are quoting each other from a scum QT, was something I caught you suggest in a off-hand way at the very beginning of the neighbor business, and then several pages later you went all-in on the theory. Any basis for this suspicion other than pure speculation?

- You said:

I do. I've played enough games over the years to know when something isn't quite adding up. Should TTH flip Scum, I would certainly suspect you of being her Scum partner because of your role in trying to get everyone else to stop digging at the discrepancy.

Why the appeal to (your) authority?

Explain the contradictory actions according to your theory: BBT/TTH first bring suspicion upon one another (so that when one flips scum neighbor, the other will look like the town neighbor), but then attempt to placate that suspicion and

not

get each other lynched.

I then went back to making sequential observations, which I put back in the sequential observation section. (Most of my wake-specific points were from basically the same time period of the game, before the great Anatole/wake fight.)

My next big segment of player-specific observations was Csareo, and so, once again, I segregated that out into its own separate section. Hence:

@Csareo

:

- In Post 294 you say wake "appears to be right," but then you recognize the mod actually undercuts wake's position. You also appear to have missed TTH's Post 283 and wake's Post 288 further undercutting your approval of wake's speculation.

Care to comment?

- Whoa calm down on your buddying with wake, you're making it so darn obvious. (Post 294, Post 296, Post300, Post 304, Post 305, Post 308.)

- lol, whoa you're really going whole hog on this buddying wake business. (Post 350.) Okay, whatevs.

- Appears to set up a one-two back to back lynch of BBT and TTH (Post 400, Post 401, Post 403), and doesn't seem to care if they're town so long as he finally gets to know the mechanics of the neighbor role (Post 403 and Post 407).

I made a few more notes in the sequential observation section, and then was done with the read through. I realized I had a few GreyICE specific observations that could be segregated out, so I made them their own section, then I thought about what I read, and added:

OH MAN, THIS GAME.

Here are my thoughts (subsequent posts will be shorter, because I will not be commenting on 24 pages) (yo I bolded names so at least skim for your name if you want I don't care whatever):

And:

And here is my vote: UNVOTE: wake, VOTE: Csareo.

If Csareo is scum, wake is likely town.

And that's how Post 600 came into existence.

As for the sequential observation section, there are observations within each bullet point that are not necessarily in sequential order to entire section. For example:

-

Anatole and Flubber look and feel town.

Boon and Doogal, too, maybe.

I'm going to throw Rufflig into the maybe town bag, as well.

I made the bolded observation first, before the Anatole/wake fight. I made the underlined observation second, after the Anatole/wake fight. I made the italicized observation third, near the end of my reread. I put all of these differently timed reactions on the same line because they were basically the same type of reaction.

These second two observations, however, came sequentially after:

-

lol @ wake versus Anatole. Wake comes out looking worse by being super active about things ranging from really inane points to bad theories to blatant misunderstanding of what Anatole is saying.

Is this wake's "divisive" play style TTH went on about?

Ultimately looks like town versus town, but ~*~ who knows ~*~ .

But even the three sentences within this bullet point were not made all at the same time. The bolded observation was made during the beginning of the Anatole/wake fight. The underline observation was made near the end of the Anatole/wake fight. And the italicized version came some time after the Anatole/wake fight was over.

[Green Crayons]

@Flubber:

I'm currently V/LA.

BBT, Flubber and TTH, what're your reads on Csareo?

Vi. BBT gets extra scum points for continuing to pick fights with him. The only thing that is going to get me to scum read Csaero is either lurking or one hell of a scum slip.

I think as more people play with him they'll get a sense of how to work with him to get good reads. But right now people are just going "look at this dumbass" and I'm not trying to filter through that to work with him.

So you're reading Csaero unless and until he makes a really stupid scum mistake or simply loses interest in the game? (Asking to make sure I have your position right.)

Have you witnessed Csaero's scum game before and that's why you're banking on that type of scumplay from him?

[Green Crayons]

reading Csaero as town*

[Green Crayons]

*sigh*

The most frustrating thing is, I think the core of the Csareo wagon is that:
1) Csareo's cases and reasoning don't make much logical sense (this was extensively covered by Ruffling, most recently in post 690)
2) Csareo hasn't made much of an effort to build up much goodwill to anyone else with the exception of possibly Wake, but even that's debatable

But when you think about Csareo's activity as a whole, it's very possible (and in my opinion, pretty

likely

) that he's town who doesn't necessarily think things through before posting them and, as a result, has public image troubles.

Whenever there is a player who has the personality as Csareo, it is entirely possible that his personality vomits actions that are really just anti-town, rather than scummy (because he is town and not scum).

That's why I was digging into the subject with Flubber.

My problem is that I have been burned both ways. I've lynched people who were acting suspicious because that was their playstyle, but who were town. I've also refused to lynch people who were acting suspicious because that was their playstyle, but who were scum. So that gives me pause to credit a "playstyle" defense, as it can be used pretty well by scum, but I'm still weighing what Flubber had to say. Plus, I don't think I'm entirely clueless about bad playstyles, and do my best to look through playstyles that are more foreign to me to determine whether I really think there's something scummy there at the core.


At any rate, because BBT is so incredibly town it hurts, I'm not keen on jumping from my Csareo vote at the moment without having another good thing to move to. So I'm waiting until I have the time to review some players that I have been wanting to lookin at, and then I will follow through (which may entail a vote switch, maybe not) at that time.

[Green Crayons]

@TTH:

Unless a scum is bussing, they have to make a bad case because they have to vote town. So when people make a bad case, I see that as an opening to evaluate them further.

(Obviously town make bad cases against players too, so unless there is something more than simply making a bad case -- such as refusing to critically reanalyze the case, or vilifying those who don't agree with the case -- simply making a bad case is not enough, in and of itself, for me to want to lynch someone. This caveat does not apply to Csareo because I think he's done more than simply make a bad case against BBT.)

If you think my continued vote for Csareo is based solely off of his buddying and his bad BBT case, you haven't been reading my other posts. I think his post-my-entry-into-the-game play has been scummy, which does not pertain to his buddying or his BBT case, and that's where Flubber's input becomes relevant for my purposes of voting Csareo.

To put it in your phraseology: Csareo is working towards a scum win condition by (1) pushing a bad case against someone who looks clearly town to me, thereby reducing the total town numbers, and (2) developing a persona that excuses a lot of his suspicious actions, thereby helping to protect himself against adverse actions.

[Green Crayons]

w/r/t the buddying aspect of Csareo suspicions, I think massive's point here is actually worthwhile and directly responds to your 762 comment:

3. The buddying of Wake, but really, the reaction to being called on it. It might have been a completely different story had you said, "yeah, I'm townreading Wake, I agree with this point," but you go straight into yelling at people for "bullshit associative tells" (hint: it's not associative since it doesn't rely on Wake's alignment) and claiming we'll lynch Wake if you flip town (607). Not only are you buddying him, but you're working extra hard to tie your alignment to his.

[Green Crayons]

@TTH:

Alright, I understand that scum have to concoct bogus cases on townies to advance their win conditions. But I've seen cases where townies are stuck in confirmation bias. The very things you seem to think are scummy are reasons why

I

think this is the case for Csareo. How is "vilifying people who disagree" part of a scum response? To me, this kind of response you're describing seems to fit confirmation bias to a "T" (implying that the opinions are genuine).

(1) Mere disagreement with a case doesn't make someone scum. Csareo has called people suspicious for disagreeing with his case. Use of this indicator of scumminess is not alignment indicative (at least before any flip has come about), and it simply muddles up the thread's collective consciousness about who is and isn't suspicious. Adding confusion to the thread = scum tactic.

(2) Also, it allows Csareo to pull this "if I'm right, people who disagree with me are scum; if I'm wrong, people who disagree with me are scum" tactic:

There are two possibilities that make sense to me now.
1. BBT is scum and two of the people voting me are reacting to my push
2. BBT is town, and scum are defending both me and him to be apart of a town bloc if we are mislynched

-----

Number (2) requires more scrutiny. You think Csareo is feigning incompetence or stubbornness? That seems like an accusation that needs substantiation in the form of previous experience / other completed games.

There's a difference between "feigning" a playstyle and purposefully playing in a certain manner that is obtuse. Once again, this goes back to Flubber's comments, and whether Csareo's usual play aligns with what we see here, and whether that alone should suffice in excusing his suspicious actions.

[Green Crayons]

Ok, I caught up. I forgot to do this in my first post so UNVOTE:

I'm about to go to bed so I'll just say a couple of things. I don't like the Csareo wagon. His cases are bad but that just makes him an easy mislynch. Like Anatole said, he's not likely to be NKed too often. Here's something specific I don't like from post 766:

To put it in your phraseology: Csareo is working towards a scum win condition by (1) pushing a bad case against someone who looks clearly town to me, thereby reducing the total town numbers, and (2) developing a persona that excuses a lot of his suspicious actions, thereby helping to protect himself against adverse actions.

(1) Csareo is making a bad case, yes, but town does that all the time, not just scum.
(2) I'm here to win this game, nothing else. I don't care about his persona. This also makes it sound like this is a policy lynch. Is it?

It's like you didn't even read the anything of Post 766 except what you quoted.

[Green Crayons]

@Jagged:

Read 766 again. The answers are all right there in 766.

1) In 791, you took issue with me voting Csareo for making a bad case. But in 766 I explicitly stated this is not the only reason why I'm willing to lynch him, and that "making a bad case," standing alone, is not a valid basis to lynch someone because town make them too.

2) In 791, you attempt to characterize my Csareo vote as a policy lynch because of his personality. That is

the exact opposite

of why Csareo's playstyle is even relevant to my analysis. That is, I'm trying to determine if whether Csareo's playstyle excuses his suspicious activities, thereby exempting him from a lynch, rather than constitutes a basis for his lynch. (TBF, this is more clearly put forward in Post 749, and while I don't expect anyone other than TTH to be reading my posts directed at her with much care, I suspect you were reading our interaction more closely since you decided that one post within our back-and-forth struck you the wrong way, and you must have done your homework to at least see if Post 766 was part of some larger discussion.)


(Sidenote to

TTH

and

Flubber

: I think I'm giving Csareo plenty of leeway to compensate for his playstyle -- for example, his redic posting in the past two pages are unproductive, but not a valid basis to further solidify my vote.

That

I can attribute to playstyle. The particular suspicious actions I have noted in the past as justifying my continued Csareo vote just don't fit under the same protective umbrella.)

-----

Your previous post says BBT is so town it hurts. That is a reason to vote Csareo for mistakes in his case but I don't see how BBT is so incredibly town. Could you explain?

I've repeated it before:

w/r/t BBT:

Everything about BBT reads to me as over-excited town so I don't plan on voting him unless some new shit comes to light. It's also unlikely if he's town that he has another role to claim besides neighbor so it's probably a dead end road.

Wouldn't over excited town be less defensive and more tunnel-y?

I would think it would depend on the player. He seemed genuinely upset he was outed by his neighbor and I think

he thinks

he keeps seeing all of these scum tells and is going after them.

I think Anatole hit the nail squarely on the head. In short, BBT's actions read like an over excited town making a genuine attempt to look for scum.

[Green Crayons]

Thinking it over, Jagged, I think you may have confused what the quoted portion of 766 meant. TTH wanted a reason why Csareo-scum would be acting the way he was. I told her in the portion of 766 that you quoted.

However, why Csareo-scum would be acting in the manner that Csareo is acting in this game is is not synonymous with why I am voting Csareo. It just explains how Csareo's actions in this game are consistent with Csareo being scum.


I think that might clarify our miscommunication about 766.

[Green Crayons]

@wake, Anatole:

you two, along with Jagged, are the only players who aren't voting for either Csareo or BBT. I'm curious as to your thoughts about both wagons, and why your vote is where it is (Anatole on Jagged (replacing GreyICE), and wake on nobody, as of last VC).

[Green Crayons]

@Csareo:

if you're on a mind to do so, please link to one (or, even better, several) of your scum games. I know you said that they have all been offsite, but I don't think simply linking to a completed, offsite game violates any MS rules.

[Green Crayons]

@Csareo:

Unless it is on the grounds of inactivity, a policy lynch is usually a scum motivated lynch.

This is the second time in recent memory that you've mentioned favorably voting for players who are lurking. How do you feel about the pressure BBT got early in the game for wanting to vote for lurkers:

Spoiler: Full Back-and-Forth Conversation, Posts Cut Down to Relevant Portions

@doogal - what question have you asked me?

@scrambles - great contribution so far. Have a vote

VOTE: Scrambles

Here is another question:
BBT, do you just look at the last post and throw a vote down or do you read the thread?

Here is another question:
BBT, do you just look at the last post and throw a vote down or do you read the thread?

Have you ISO'd Scrambles? Do you disagree with my previous statement?

How is scrambles any more suspicious than flubber, csareo, rufflig, etc. if your only basis is they haven't said much?

I can't vote all four of them can I?

I chose the latest to actively lurk. That happened to be Scrambles. Like, he is posting, but may as well not be posting because he hasn't said anything.

Do you think not posting much makes them scummy?

If they're actively lurking, yeah, it makes them scummy.

I find that to be a really lazy and counter-productive way of looking for scum, particularly for someone purporting to be looking for scum by analyzing productivity.

Thanks.

I'm Ok with leaving my vote on you BBT.

If you are just going to randomly sheep instead of engage and pressure, you are not helping the town and most likely scum.

For the record, the whole Greyice thing is sitting in my craw really bad as well and I'd be willing to switch my vote if needed.

So, if Scrambles and Flubber continued to contribute in the way they are, you're happy with that? We just continue ignoring them?

So, if Scrambles and Flubber continued to contribute in the way they are, you're happy with that? We just continue ignoring them?

They'll either replace out or start playing, likely. Townies lurk/are lazy/get disinterested in games. It's a total crapshoot to just start chainsawing through lurkers and is just going to waste days.

AK - You're seriously telling me you're OK with Scrambles 154 given everything that's going on in this thread? He completely abstained from commenting on anything of note.

I'm telling you there is no indication he is scum in that post given everything that's going on in this thread.

[Green Crayons]

Yet I never actually pushed a vote, or even a case on lurkers, have I? BBT isn't scummy for wanting to lynch inactives, but it's the fact that he kept reverting back to policy lynches while undergoing a tunnel, which is what is really suspicous.

The point of my question was how do you feel about the players criticizing BBT for voting lurkers, not your well known feelings about BBT.

I'm not a fan of your selective quoting either, just to make that clear.

There's not a emoticon with a large enough eye roll for me to post.

[Green Crayons]

w/r/t your description of your scum play:

That doesn't really help me. You mention your strategies as playing scum, but I'm more curious in the general "feel" to your playstyle when you're scum.

Your reasons for not linking to a game are pretty thin. Your scum playstyle is pretty darn relevant for how I'm going to move forward with dealing with you, as has been mentioned countless times in the past day or two.

Also, you linking to offsite games is not going to somehow magically transform your meta on MS itself. This is also a strange hangup to have if you are town in this game.

[Green Crayons]

It's easier for me to just quote myself as to why I'm voting you. So here you go:

Spoiler: My Basis For Voting Csareo

Oh, further clarification:

- You said:

When you think about the case and strip it to its core, it consists of: buddying Wake and "lining up lynches" of the neighbors.

Yup.

That, of course, was simply for my vote as it then existed. Since that time, there's Csareo excessive hostility/defensiveness and his crazy wrong silver bullet about buddying.

Also this is downright adorable scum melodrama:

That contradiction was so outright blatant.
Please lynch him tommorow, as I'll probs be NK'd

w/r/t the buddying aspect of Csareo suspicions, I think massive's point here is actually worthwhile and directly responds to your 762 comment:

3. The buddying of Wake, but really, the reaction to being called on it. It might have been a completely different story had you said, "yeah, I'm townreading Wake, I agree with this point," but you go straight into yelling at people for "bullshit associative tells" (hint: it's not associative since it doesn't rely on Wake's alignment) and claiming we'll lynch Wake if you flip town (607). Not only are you buddying him, but you're working extra hard to tie your alignment to his.

Here, I'll add another reason to my vote: you're grasping at all the straws to vilify those who disagree with your BBT "suspicions." Yeah, the scare quotes are there on purpose, because your stated bases to lynch BBT are bad.

(2) Also, it

(GC Edit: talking about Csareo's villifying those who disagree with his BBT case.)

allows Csareo to pull this "if I'm right, people who disagree with me are scum; if I'm wrong, people who disagree with me are scum" tactic:

There are two possibilities that make sense to me now.
1. BBT is scum and two of the people voting me are reacting to my push
2. BBT is town, and scum are defending both me and him to be apart of a town bloc if we are mislynched

I don't respond to most of your posts because by and large they are so far off into left field territory, that the time and energy it would take to correct you about your misunderstandings/misrepresentations/irrelevant tangents just really isn't worth it to me.

[Green Crayons]

I'm trying to pursue other suspicions while attempting to figure you out, so maybe if you have a little patience you'll see if I have suspicions of other players that I find worthwhile enough to vocalize.

[Green Crayons]

lol, 863 is why I don't respond to you.

You've reduced suspicions against you to "buddying" (in a generic sense, ignoring the fact that your response to the assertion is even more damming of your alignment than the initial assertion itself) and "tunneling," (ignoring the fact that it's not even tunneling which constitutes my suspicions as I've never suggested that you're suspicious for failing to have pursued players other than BBT).

This, of course, which makes it super easy for you to dismiss my suspicions. Very convenient for you, you deserve a slow clap. Clap clap clap. But it's such a gross misrepresentation of what I have actually said that either you're scum just spewing BS or are so far gone that there's no way for me to even reach you.


Ah, yes. Then you're asking me three questions "that I keep putting off."

1) Why am I town reading BBT? I've responded to this question from you twice already. TWICE. And then an additional time to Jagged. READ THE THREAD.

2) Why am I saying that you are scum for scum reading BBT? lol. this question belongs in an alternate reality, as it does not pertain to the game we're playing here in the real world. Your position on BBT is bad and wrong, but that doesn't make you scum, and I never said it does. The

closest

thing I've said to that is that you've pushed a really bad case against BBT as part of attempting to set up a one-two back-to-back lynch with BBT and TTH.

3) Who else am I scum reading? Nobody. I have some inklings as to suspicions, but amazingly they are nearly as fully developed as my suspicions of you.

[Green Crayons]

Since you're around,

wake

, and have not addressed anything I have ever posed to you, I hope that you will at least answer this:

@wake, Anatole:

you two, along with Jagged, are the only players who aren't voting for either Csareo or BBT. I'm curious as to your thoughts about both wagons, and why your vote is where it is (Anatole on Jagged (replacing GreyICE), and wake on nobody, as of last VC).

[Green Crayons]

@Doogal:

(1) Observation: You claimed ignorance about game mechanics in Post 40, going so far to make a joke (?) about whether TTH and BBT being "neighbors" is a game mechanic or a IRL aspect of their play. Then, in your very next post, Post 110, you appear very knowledgeable about game mechanics, including how a survivor role was implemented into a neighbor scenario.

Question: What explains this broad discrepancy in your knowledge about roles generally, and the neighbor role specifically?


(2) Observation: In Post 164, you faulted BBT for "randomly sheep<ing> instead of engage and pressure." It would appear that you are referring to BBT's vote for scrambles (Post 155), which BBT explained as being a vote for a lurker (Post 157, Post 159). I scrolled through the previous pages, and it does not appear that anyone else was voting for scrambles before BBT's post.

Question: How was BBT's lurker vote on scrambles "sheeping," and how did it not try to "engage and pressure" scrambles to provide substantive content to the thread?


(3) Observation: In Post 164 and Post 375, you mention your willingness to vote GreyICE, but only upon other people's approval of your suspicions.

Question (A): Why were you making a GreyICE vote contingent upon the approval of other players?

Question (B): What changed by Post 535, when you finally vote switched to GreyICE? (Only Anatole had voted GreyICE at this time, and a quick skim of the preceding pages reveals that GreyICE was not on anyone's mind.)


(4) Observation: You said:

BBT however is now pushing on a lurker when we have plenty of scuminess to deal with.

Question: What other players constituted this "plenty" of scum candidates at that time? How about now?

[Green Crayons]

I just read through Flubber's ISO, and confirmed what I thought from my first read through: his posts all read like genuine town reactions.

I would appreciate him having a more active role in this game, though.

[Green Crayons]

w/r/t Flubber:

I don't see it.

You think his vote on me was genuine? He has contributed nothing and continues to do so. Just sitting back waiting for a lynch to go through.

His initial vote for you Post 193 was because you followed GreyICE's Anatole vote without double checking the game source for GreyICE's criticism. I personally don't do double checks all that much from other games, and allow other players to refute a mischaracterized game, so I don't personally fault you for not looking into the game GreyICE cited. That said, I also don't think his vote for you on that basis is unreasonable.

He "revoted" you in Post 547, but his vote was already on you.

I think Flubber's thinking out loud regarding Csareo, and going back and forth on that, reads pretty town.

His interactions with Anatole were not particularly insightful for me, with respect to either Flubber or Anatole, but it reads like an active player pursuing suspicions.

[Green Crayons]

Boon:

I believe TTH said that this isn't her first game on MS.

[Green Crayons]

Not posting for two days -- two weekend days -- doesn't strike me as "going inactive."

[Green Crayons]

As of my posting, the four players who haven't spoken up most recently:

massive -- last post: 1D 23H -- total posts: 23
Anatole -- last post: 2D 10H -- total posts: 132
Omph -- last post: 2d 19H -- total posts: 3
Doogal -- last post: 3D 10H -- total posts: 23


Anything under 2 days over a weekend, in my book, isn't a blip on my radar. People do stuff on weekends.
Anatole has been 100+ posts active up until the weekend hit.
Omph just replaced in.
And then there's Doogal.

(shrug)

[Green Crayons]

@TTH:

I read through your ISO and have no idea why you're still voting BBT.

Thoughts?

[Green Crayons]

I think the theory is that scum would not want to jump away from the town wagon and onto their scumbuddy's wagon to bus, because it's still a possibility that town will defect from their current wagon on the scum and join the wagon on the town.

It's speculation that simply explains how the current game state is consistent with one of the wagons being on scum, but it does not provide evidence that one of the wagons is on scum.

For example, a potential scenario is that both Csareo and BBT are town. If that is in fact the situation we are facing, scum moving from one wagon to the other would seal in a lynch and bring a lot of attention to them: Why did they decide to switch wagons now? What was it about their previous suspicions that they were not only able to get over, but then to decide that the other wagon was actually more valid all this time? Etc. In that case, it's more advantageous for scum to stick to their wagon (or on no wagon) and simply let the town figure out who to kill, and hence, little movement.

[Green Crayons]

@TTH:

1) Was BBT scum or town in Chosen mafia?

2) What happened to your Ruffling suspicions? I came away from your ISO last night wondering why you hadn't voted him all game.

[Green Crayons]

@Anatole:

How was GreyICE's LAL push scum motivated, particularly in light of Flubber's observation in Post 202: "But that's the thing. It's so easy for someone to just say "nuh-uh" and nothing would have really cemented into Dougal. Which is exactly what happened btw."

Like, I get how it's anti-town, but why would scum push a clearly verifiable misrep/lie about another game setup as the basis to vote/start a wagon push?

[Green Crayons]

BTW I appreciate the responses to my questions.

*tear*

[Green Crayons]

@TTH:

1) Was BBT scum or town in Chosen mafia?

2) What happened to your Ruffling suspicions? I came away from your ISO last night wondering why you hadn't voted him all game.

[Green Crayons]

Oh.

wake wants to know if the neighbors have daytalk.

Jeeze, you could have just asked that instead of inquire in the most roundabout way possible.

[Green Crayons]

Oh man, I'm so glad we're going to retread this ground.

[Green Crayons]

lol, wake, if you think me criticizing you're failure to articulate your questions in a manner that people can actually understand what you're getting at equates to "distracting from the discussion," then WELP sorry you're wrong.

[Green Crayons]

Pretty sure both BBT and TTH have said that they haven't gotten confirmation if quoting the mod's posts from the PT is acceptable.

[Green Crayons]

So the only new thing I see on the horizon is Jagged's Doogal case.


And I guess if Omph wants to play.

[Green Crayons]

Vote Count 1.07

BlueBloodedToffee(6)

– TellTaleHeart, Flubbernugget, Csareo, Boonskiies, Doogal121, Wake88

Csareo(5)

– Omph, The Rufflig, Green Crayons, BlueBloodedToffee, massive

JaggedAppliance(1)

– Anatole Kuragin

Not Voting(1)

- JaggedAppliance[/area]

If Csareo is town, BBT is scum: lol BBT isn't scum so I'm not even going to think hard about a scenario that isn't plausible
If Csareo is scum, BBT is town: TTH and Doogal are pretty high on my list of suspects, considering play and wagon timing.
If Csareo is town, BBT is town: TTH OR Doogal, Ruffling OR massive (OR maaaybe Omph -- I'm not digging his complete absence), and I feel like I should say Anatole OR Jagged, but I like their posting so it hurts me to say that

My "or" pairings in the town/town scenario do not necessarily exclude the other party, I just paired the players from each wagon who strike me as most suspicious in a town/town scenario based off of game memory of everyone's play.


Let's see. I didn't mention Flubber, Boon, Wake, or myself in the above, so I'm town reading those folks. (Feeling p solid about all of those except Boon, who appears to have have turned on a dime, and was convinced to such a degree by Csareo's single post summarizing his case against BBT that Boon began reading Csareo as town, is . . . questionable.)

Obviously from the above, I'm also town reading BBT.

I'm throwing Anatole and Jagged into the strong lean town category, because I like the town feel of their posting, but I also recognize that their posting feels somewhat safe.

[Green Crayons]

What we need is a flip for additional scum hunting. (shrug)

[Green Crayons]

@massive:

Green Crayons

, why are you town-reading Boon?

My initial reaction was to simply state that his posts "feel" town, because that's what I'm working off of from memory, but I'll try to give that read a bit more meat after doing a quick ISO and rejogging my memory of specifics:
- His early game hammer-troll back and forth, ultimately resolving not to be a hammer-troll, reads town.
- His SK spec was weird, but it was built up off of GreyICE actions that I thought were worth noting.
- His willingness to agree with a player who was getting heat (agreed with BBT that voting for lurkers was a valid way to look for scum).
- Although his sudden turn on Csareo is really weird, I credit the fact that his read of Csareo is still pretty nuanced (e.g., Post 352, reads Csareo as town but recognizes that his posting isn't something he agrees with).
- Then there's a bunch of active stuff that isn't particularly alignment indicative one way or another.
- Maaaybe some of the BBT/Csareo suspicion differentiation would give me pause, I would need to look through it more carefully.

[Green Crayons]

@TTH:

I'm shocked,

shocked

to learn that you don't like my posting once I basically state that you're in my Top 3 scum suspects.

[Green Crayons]

@TTH:

1) (shrug) Some people are just easier to read than others. I have BBT being 90% likely town at this point in the game. Similarly, I'd put wake at being 80% likely town. I'm not going to waste my time and energy at this point in the game to speculate about scenarios where I'm required to think that they are, in fact, scum.

2) You said:

The townread on BBT isn't that well-founded in the first place and

your witch-hunting from the BBT wagon is bad at that

.

The bolded portion is delightfully overblown nonsense. I stated who I would look at given certain scenarios. This should be apparent from the every day, sensical language I used in Post 1186. You're now suggesting that

if Csareo is actually scum and BBT is actually town, it is witchhunting to look at the players on the BBT bandwagon

. I'll let that sink in and maybe you'll want to retract it. Or maybe not.

3) Dougal's on my radar because he's been fairly inactive, though apparently "quietly" active enough to catch posts addressed to him. So, if he's keeping up with the thread, where are his thoughts? Also, I have issues with his 3B and 4 responses to my questions from Post 1079, but that's something I would pursue on another day. (Because this day is too long as is.)

4) Ruffling is on my radar simply by process of elimination of who is on the Csareo wagon. (You know, which I would be required to "witch hunt" from if one of those hypothetical scenarios I posited -- where both BBT and Csareo are town -- is actually true.) Ultimately, I feel more like the GreyICE/Omph slot is somehow actually more town (super faint, admittedly, and somewhat based on my speculation about a few things) than massive/Ruffling, so they would be the players I would look more closely at from the Csareo wagon.

[Green Crayons]

@Jagged:

I would posit that most, if not all, of everything wake asked BBT in the past 10 pages regarding the neighbor scenario has already been asked and answered in this game.

I don't know if that changes how you feel about BBT's willingness to be forthcoming.

[Green Crayons]

Out of curiosity, Rufflig (sorry I've been mistaking it as Ruffling): how in the world did you come to that single line of Post 801 -- a sentence from a wall post that's 400 posts in the past?

[Green Crayons]

Red rover, red rover.

[Green Crayons]

I really believe that Csareo is a counterwagon to BBT and I would really like a flip to confirm this.

Any of the Csareo/undecided crowd, are any of you willing to come over?

Could you walk through this a bit further?

[Green Crayons]

@Doogal:

Sure, in the past 3 games I have played,

I have noticed that town wagons tend to not have counter wagons pop up where scum wagons tend to have a secondary wagon pop up. A way to see if the wagon was indeed scum was to see what else happened once it got up to the L-1 or 2 level.

I believe that Csaero is that wagon. If the flip comes with BBT as town, than I clearly was wrong. Perhaps the Csareo wagon was a real wagon and not some scum tactic. If that was the case, I would expect the light to be shined on myself, Csareo and Flubber. I am Ok with that.

So are you saying that (1) simply because there are two dueling wagons, the existence of a second bandwagon is evidence that the first bandwagon is on scum, or are you saying that (2) there is a particular sequence of events as to when these two specific bandwagons came into existence in this game that evinces the second bandwagon being an actual attempt to prevent the first bandwagon's lynch?

If it's the former: I don't see how, as a general proposition, simultaneously existing bandwagons is actual evidence of the first-occurring bandwagon being on scum, rather than simply being consistent with such a scenario. That is, I don't see how two simultaneously existing bandwagons, in and of itself, supports that it is more likely that the first bandwagon is on scum, rather than the second bandwagon, or both bandwagons, or neither bandwagon. I would appreciate any further comments you may have as to this theory, if you are indeed adopting it in the abstract rather than as applied to a particular set of circumstances.

If it's the latter: Can you please set forth the particular sequence of events that makes you believe that this second bandwagon (on Csareo) is an attempt to protect the first bandwagon target (BBT)?

-----

Also, as BBT is a solid town read for me, I'm not going to switch to the BBT wagon and sacrifice someone who I'm easily reading as town (not always the easiest thing to do) just for information.

[Green Crayons]

I would if that would work. There is nothing to scum read him for besides lurking and disagreeing with me.

Another thing that drives me nuts about you, Csareo, is that you pick up anything someone says and just throw it out there unashamedly. Wake and the conspiracy theory, now this. TTH was the first "massive is lurking" person and I very clearly pointed out that I had posted every non-weekend day (and multiples on some days) and you have somehow picked it up and thrown it out there casually, I guess to hopefully keep people thinking "oh yeah, massive doesn't post nearly as much as other people!" HEADS UP: My posting schedule is non-alignment-indicative. You want to go after a lurker, you're better off finding an actual lurker.

Although, that wouldn't make you much better than BBT on that front, amirite?

Heh. I'm doing a reread, and I just caught something that falls in line with this:

Csareo has been in love with throwing out things being "associative tells," even when it isn't particularly apt:

Spoiler: Csareo's Love Affair With "Associative Tells"

Anatole and Flubber look and feel town.

This is

an associative tell

, since I was scum reading flubber, and Anatole appears to be alligned with BBT, a major scum read.

<snip>

What is exactly your case on me?

An associative tell on wake

, and one false statement?

Scum can buddy with scum. Town can buddy with town. Scum can buddy with town.

Associative tells are only indicative at end of the game.

Greencrayons, I would need to scum read ruffles and anatole by your logic, because they're buddying with BBT.
Fortunately,

associative tells are a bullshit reason to lynch someone before a flip happens.

Respond to my case.

Why the hell did you vote for me over an associative tell.

There is nothing to support greencrayon's theory, and I explained earlier why it wouldn't make sense for scum.

Now why are we even considering some bullshit associative tell on D1?

I agree with my good friend bullish. People on this site don't actually know how to play mafia.

Every game I've played has accumulated in terrible D1 town lynches based on such things as associative tells and "being wrong"

Literally EVERY game I've played in thus far, there has been one townie lynched on the grounds that he doesn't make sense.

Do any of you know what an actual scum tell is?

The case is so petty and ridiculous.

Associative tells are as bad as meta, just stop.

How many times have I heard this bullshit from scum? "You are going against a town objective blah blah" "You're scum for voting blah blah"
Make it end please. The ignorance really hurts.

Now as much as I would like to buy into this funny game of "associative tells" and all that fun jazz

, it isn't in our best interests to keep thinking so short shortsightedly.

Of course,

many players are also guilty of relying on associative tells.

Wake,GC, and Ruffling being among them.

I've complained enough about GC and Ruffling's associative tells already.

By his logic, we should policy lynch BBT to uncover the sheer amount of association tells he made.

Greencrayons, if you are town, then I would like to give you some advice.

Over relying on association as you were in your early case is a bad idea.

Greencrayons, if you are town, then I would like to give you some advice.

Over relying on association as you were in your early case is a bad idea.
Association is near useless D1. Actually, it is anti utillity and anti town to be doing pushes based on association until at least one scum has been uncovered.
Skilled players can sometimes successfully deduct association out of a town flip, and I'll be honest when I say I'm not to good at that myself, but this is just one of the many flaws I see in your cognitive processes.

<snip>

As I said, we all use different methods to reach different conclusions, and it isn't very wise to scum read people simply because they don't reach conclusions in the same manner you do.
Which is why I'm not falling into your logic trap and scum reading you. As far as I'm concerned, you're misguided/stubborn town if BBT flips non-mafia, and scummy if he flips mafia.

It isn't 100% indicative, but that is when association tells really start to count for something.

That's because your suspicions don't make any sense. All your suspicions have been accusations of association.

Associative tells are shitty on D1

How in the world did Csareo ever get the idea of flinging "associative tell" at things he doesn't like? Maybe from BBT's first criticism of Csareo:

Spoiler: Csareo Case

Case for Anatole + BBT + TTH

Well, I first started to think you were scum, when I saw your early vote and unvote for BBT.

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

Why do you need to quote to us your discussion of who to night kill?

Usually this is fine, but the unexpected unvote took me by suprise. Scum have a common tactic of voting their buddy early game. Nothing extremely indicative, but certainly suspicious.
Didn't see a justification either.

uhhh

UNVOTE: blue

Then there was this whole interaction with grey ice. Boy, did the sirens go a'flying.

It is masons except they don't know eachother's alignment.

Having at least one scum in a neighborhood has been the situation in every single game I have played with neighbors.

In post 81, GreyICE wrote:
Anatole, what games have you played with neighbors? I find your analysis fascinating.

Sorry, I realized I can't really discuss this more.

In post 106, GreyICE wrote:
Yo, Anatole, I'm calling bullshit

I went through your games. Your last game with a neighborhood had two town neighbors. Do you know what, Anatole? They were both town. Your last game with Neighbors, Anatole.

You know what? There's a very old philosophy. It goes Lynch. All. Liars.

I find it nearly impossible to believe that you didn't even bother to do a quick double check as part of an actual sincere scumhunting effort (instead of piggybacking on the hate). And then you dodged my question, Anatole.

Lynch. All. Liars.

Vote: Anatole

You can lynch Boonskiies when I'm dead for a twofer, fyi.

This post also made me relax my read on BBT, but now that I go back, all of it seems like a way to temporarily relieve himself of pressure, even bringing the statement up in the beginning of his post.
Further indication that the two are in cahoots. Notice how know hostility came back from anatole following this vote? Completely unlike his meta, right?

All this talk of whether neighbours have pre-game chat is ridiculous.

Every game I have played in I have had pre-game chat if my role allows for it. It's usually quite short as you only have as long as it takes for the majority/everyone to confirm for the game. When that's done, the chat is closed.

Boon's 93 was awful.

Anatole lying is also pretty bad.

VOTE: Anatole

Now, skipping the PT topic post which can be found, here
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p6201895
That was literally the scummiest thing I've seen. I'm almost certain it was forged, or details were ommited. The formatting was off, as if someone editted it.
Anyone notice that?

That was my line of thinking. I just starting doubting myself after constantly re-reading it. I think TTH knew I was suspicious and decided to come after me from the get-go.

I hope my stance is a little clearer with this information out.

VOTE: TTH

Convenient, right? Especially after reviewing BBT's earlier posts in the game, Although, it is possible, that telltale is protecting himself, as BBT found this information out earlier.
Could it be a hit, is she trying to remove the liability?

I don't see the scumslip.
Top
Anatole Kuragin
Mafia Scum

User avatar
Joined : April 19, 2008
Location: Right under join date, please.
Pronoun: He
Post Post #128 (ISO) » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:24 am

Uhh.. so are you going to explain it wake?

This is the second time anatole has came in defense of TTH
It also appears to be the only time the two came into direct conflict, which is why I'm doubting my read on BBT. Here is the third defense....

Why is your first instinct upon reading "tackle a read" to assume the aim is to fabricate a false one?

But HERE is the big tip off, the mother of all fuck ups

I'm probably suffering with conf. bias here.

When I saw my role PM, I automatically assumed that TTH was scum. Then I convinced myself after post 3 of the neighbour thread that she slipped. However, during recent exchanges in this thread, I'm beginning to think that TTH is actually town.

If you are town TTH, you made a pretty big mistake in your opening post of this game. You should have waited to see what developed.

UNVOTE:

God almighty, perhaps they're creating some elaborate plan, it is beyond me. This got me all worked up with theories, and almost certain the above is scum motivated.
In support of my anatole-BBT scum team theory, this fits perfectly. I notice that TTH took off pressure of BBTm despite what she contrary said, following the unvote.
Come on, who do you take us for? Redirecting suspicion

In the midst of the ongoing storms in me vs. BBT and Boon vs. GreyICE, I see that someone is making posts while taking care to sit it all out.

This vote flip was the final tip off on anatole, sychronized perfectly with BBT.

I'm going to keep digging at this until I get more info from reactions and such. That you're dissembling this and now lying about my words is pretty revealing in itself.

VOTE: Anatole Kuragin

Maybe this vote will.

VOTE: Wake88

VOTE: wake

Literally nobody is saying you are scum JUST for not reading "every post" you are scum for a myriad of reasons now, but the one you are TRYING to refute is that you are making cases on people and actively posting while not reading your target's posts and complaining about not having time to read every post. As if posting these braindead cases does not require any time at all.

Making associative cases with no flips to base this information off is pretty bad scum-hunting play.

lol. I'm not saying it's definitely what happened, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me. "Oh, what I said was an associative tell, hunh? Yeah. Yeah that's a good line of attack, it just sounds effective. I'm going to use that in the future."

[Green Crayons]

Can someone give me a summary of what happened in this game so far?

lol @ Csareo's summary

Here you go:

- BBT and TTH are neighbors. They at first didn't trust each other much, but now BBT thinks TTH is probtown, and TTH mentioned she was having second thoughts about her BBT vote when she was last present in the thread. They, as neighbors, have a QT. They have been allowed by the mod to quote from that thread. They have quoted everything but the first and last posts, which were posted by the mod, because they don't know if that is acceptable.

- wake asks a bunch of questions that repeat themselves (usually tending to deal with the neighborhood mechanic), but the kid's got a good heart and is probtown, so try to look past that failing.

- Csareo asks a bunch of questions that repeat themselves (usually tending to deal with everything under the goddamn sun), usually on the heels of wake's repeated questions. The jury's out on just how good his heart actually is.

- Flubber doesn't like Anatole, because Anatole apparently goes for "low hanging fruit" that may or may not be alignment indicative.

- GreyICE (the first of your slot) threw down a vote on Anatole under the theory that one should Lynch All Liars (tm), on the basis that (1) Anatole had said X was his experience with neighbors, (2) GreyICE found a previous game in which Anatole had played and which neighbors were present, (3) GreyICE asserted that this previous game was actually NOT-X, rather than the supposed X Anatole had claimed. BBT jumped onto that vote. Then the thread collectively explained that this previously game actually did stand for X, not NOT-X, and that Anatole hadn't been lying. GreyICE fled the game.

- Omph (the second of your slot) had a stylish entry post, but then didn't follow through with anything. I had to explain to him how I conjured up my own entry post, which I think is pretty bullshit since I know nobody read it because it's pointless.

- BBT and Csareo are the dueling wagons. They both have not awesome personalities that very clearly rub people the wrong way, but we're all refined ladies and gents here, and so we want to hang them for supposedly valid reasons.

- BBT is suspected because allegedly (1) he's a neighbor, (2) he immediately followed GreyICE's readily verifiable-as-wrong vote against Anatole, (3) he changes his vote frequently, (4) his votes are reactionary. I'm sure others can add to this.

- Csareo is suspected by allegedly (1) buddying wake at a time when wake and Anatole were internet screaming at each other over some pretty minor BS, (2) got super defensive about being called out on buddying, instead of simply saying "yeah well I agreed with wake so why wouldn't I have said whatever it is I said?"), (3) supposedly did a scum slip when he said that "when BBT flips town" instead of "if BBT flips town," but frankly in the context it made sense to me as BBT had just said that he was going to flip town, (4) he pushed a pretty bad case against BBT in tandem with lining up lynches in the form of BBT-TTH (the neighbors), suggesting an attempted mislynch, (5) he has vilified with those who disagree with his BBT suspicions, which he clearly connected to setting up future vote pushes against such players regardless of whether BBT flips town or scum, (6) he's gone out of his way to defensively answer questions that were not actually posted to him, and (7) he likes to reduce the totality of the suspicions against him as simply "buddying" and "associative tells," though one time he said that he was accused of "tunneling," but that's just him getting overexcited about what all suspicion things he's done in this thread.

[Green Crayons]

(You can probably guess where my vote is.)

[Green Crayons]

@Viridi Crayon, can you tell me what BBT has done that is pro town?

- His interaction w/r/t the neighbor situation, including his willingness to recognize that he might have been incorrect about the slip, looks genuine.

- Willingness to go after players who weren't adding to the conversation (lurkers), when that conversation was actually more valuable than your typical D1 random vote phase; compounded by the fact that he got flak for voting for lurkers; compounded even further by the fact that he kept following through with his lurker pressure, even to the extent of when it would have behooved him to let it go because the lurker agreed with his theory against Csareo (see Post 418).

- "The vote flip on me by BBT is the most shameful scum tells this game. This guy is literally hopping votes for whoever is the greatest threat to him. First it was TTH, then Wake, and now me?" (quoting Csareo, in Post 396.) lol. BBT:

(1) voted TTH out of the game because of his neighbor problems, before TTH had actually said anything;
(2) voted wake in response to wake's wonderfully unhelpful "I don't read all the posts in the this game, so I'm going to repeat questions about the neighborhood scenario," and immediately after wake had voted Anatole, not BBT; and
(3) voted Csareo after Csareo voted BBT, true, but also after BBT had noted problems with Csareo's play (Post 367, Post 382), and BBT's vote was the first vote on Csareo at that point (see the immediately posted unofficial vote count in Post 386), thereby failing to be much a "counterwagon" vote and looking more like frustration with a certain player.

- Reactionary votes speak to town more than scum. Town know that they are town, and are more prone to suspect others who are going after a player that they know 100% to be town. Scum know that they are not town, and therefore want to appear more thoughtful about another player's suspicions of them.

- His mode of interaction with accusations that are easily verifiable as wrong (e.g., BBT's Post 820's "I would guess the scum are on my wagon and trying to push my lynch through before Csareo's," followed by Csareo's horrible mangling of what that sentence meant in Post 821, Post 823, and Post 824, followed by BBT's exasperated explanation in Post 825, Post 832, Post 834), make me comfortable that this type of exasperated-after-a-certain-point play style is just how BBT plays, rather than being alignment indicative. Which is pretty much the rest of BBT's presence in this game.

[Green Crayons]

Csareo, I look forward to when you are dead.

[Green Crayons]

Greencrayons has literally the shittiest case alive. She just likes to stretch it out for more than it's worth. Csareo buddies with wake. Csareo is trying to manafacture future lynches (

which relies on me being scum to even make sense

. As many users have pointed out, it is a counter wagon. We need a flip. Break the gridlock, please.

lololol x one goddamn million

You mean a thing you did is suspicious only if you are scum?


Oh man, what a great defense. It is literally "this scummy thing I did can be scummy only if I am actually scum!"


How are you still alive?

[Green Crayons]

Because wake has a theory that they're both scum faking to be neighbors.

[Green Crayons]

Yes this is a thing we have addressed a lot, and wake keeps asking the same questions a lot, and it hurts.

[Green Crayons]

wake thinks that they're lying, and no neighborhood exists, and so they will simply flip "scum."

[Green Crayons]

Yes, Csareo, I'm totally talking out of my ass about what wake has theorized:

Mmhmm...

So we haven't been assured that Scum cannot quote posts from their QT/PT and pass it off as being from a Neighborhood.

Interesting...

Do you suspect this to be happening? If so, why?

I consider it a possibility. If DP won't clarify whether or not two Scum with Daytalk or pregame chat can quote their posts and make them out to be from a Neighborhood, then that doesn't hinder the notion that BBT and TTH could very well be Scum trying to pull a fast one on us. Start with a squabble, make it look like a Neighborhood dispute, then quickly make up. I've seen elaborate gambits and tricks by Scum, and it would not surprise me if that turned out to be the case.

[Green Crayons]

wake thinks that they're lying, and no neighborhood exists, and so they will simply flip "scum."

Again, that theory is impossible.

TTH outed the "neighborhood" to lynch BBT.

If BBT flips "Mafia Goon", then town will know what's up and Scum_TTH will immediately be lynched.

You have come the reasonable conclusion why such a theory is a bad theory, because it assumes that the scum are idiots and trying to lose.

[Green Crayons]

@massive:

Did you ever state why you suspected Boon, back when you were looking around to see if anyone would join you on a push? If yes, please link. If no, please provide your case.

Is Boon the only player from the BBT wagon that you suspect? If not, who else and why (small summaries are fine by me for the time being).

[Green Crayons]

Thinking it over this morning, the push for a screenshot of an out of thread webpage looks hella bad.

[Green Crayons]

JA and Anatole cannot be scum together.

Credited.

What are you thoughts on Anatole (might be useful to ISO Anatole in conjunction with Flubber, since they are the two who have spoken most about Anatole's play)?

[Green Crayons]

@Doogal:

(1) You promised an "overview" of your thoughts once you caught up back in Post 1079. That never happened, even though you have posted substantive things since that time. I am interested in your thoughts on the game more generally (not just BBT and Csareo), including what other players have your attention, and why. I'll leave to your preference for how broad/deep you want to get with your thoughts.


(2) In reference to you unvoting BBT in Post 535 (by way of a vote on GreyICE), and revoting BBT in Post 583, you have said:

3B. I felt I couldn't leave my vote on BBT for fear of Boonskies troll hammer coming in and we still had plenty of time (and I wanted to see if a counter wagon appeared) so I thought putting my vote on Greyice would help provide pressure on him, hopefully to get him to answer why he threw down some BS and then disappeared.

It's the latter. I'm going off memory partly here because the VC's weren't regular at this time of the game. I believe BBT was at L-2 when I pulled my vote off because I was worried about troll hammering. This was on 9/11. I put my vote back on him 9/17 because I was no longer worried about troll hammering and he was just acting completely anti town. Right after that is when the BBT jumped on Csareo(bringing to L-4 I believe) and the votes started racking up on the counter wagon.

A major component of you removing your BBT vote, and then being comfortable with revoting BBT 50 some odd posts later, is your concern about Boon's hammer. But Boon had already voted BBT in Post 467. Thoughts?


(3) In faulting BBT for pursuing a lurker (scrambles, I believe), you said:

BBT however is now pushing on a lurker when we have plenty of scuminess to deal with.

When I asked you to clarify about who were these other scum candidates that BBT could have gone after (Post 916), you said:

4. The scumminess was BBT sheeping Greyice and Greyice throwing down a BS LaL arguement. We also had the whole AK vs Wake thing to go through which I felt was Town vs Town but I thought we might be able to analyze the other participants to see if any thing scummy ended up coming out of it.

So, if I'm to understand you correctly, you thought BBT was scummy for pursuing a lurker rather than other players who were suspicious, but those other suspicious players were (1) BBT himself, and then (2) Anatole and Wake, who had been having an internet screaming fight, but which you recognize looks like a town v. town situation.

Do I have that correct?

[Green Crayons]

Doogal, as a follow up to question (2) with respect to your revote of BBT: what was it about BBT's anti-town play that you found to be alignment indicative. I understand "anti-town" and "scummy" to be two different things.

[Green Crayons]

Oh, as a head's up

to the mods

and the thread more generally: I'm going camping Saturday, coming back Sunday. Unclear what my phone's internet access will be. So I'll be V/LA around the deadline.

[Green Crayons]

I have Flubber as my third or fourth strongest town read. Not going to be voting him today.

Same goes for wake and BBT.

I'm open to Casreo (sigh), Dougal, Boon, Anatole, and Jagged. Probably in that order, but the order becomes somewhat blurry once you move past Dougal.

-----

@FakeGod:

can you give a quick statement as to why you think Csareo is town and BBT is likely town?

[Green Crayons]

Busy at the moment, but I do want to say that I had FakeGod mixed up, and thought he replaced the GreyICE slot.

Now that I realize it's Jagged who replaced that GreyICE slot, I don't really want to lynch Jagged at all, and I think FakeGod, though he came across very well last night, has started to look a bit slimey. (E.g., "would you be willing to vote yourself if your scum read is wrong?)

[Green Crayons]

@Boon:

Here are the points against you that are convincing me. Please address as you see fit:

Immediately after my vote on him, Boon completely disappeared. At the time of your request, he hadn't done anything to make me move my vote, and his vote in 467 was pretty rubbish too. 476 has him casually mention the "double-scum-gambit" possibility which, really, people, can we all agree that's a little obtuse? Like this:

Granted, there's still the possibility of both of you being scum, which in case, it gives even more reason for you guys to try to stay away from a lynch.

makes no sense. If you're both scum, you practically WANT a lynch here, because (to most of us) it would auto-townie the other one. Pushing the double-scum-gambit as even a possibility here just keeps it in people's minds.

750 - Continuing to feed the "neighbors are both scum" conspiracy nonsense.
752 - His BBT vote is based solely on town-reading Csareo. That read is in 352 and is caused by one Csareo post.

<snip>

1235 - Continues to be the only person hunting an SK.

And this:

I have stated multiple reasons, and any competent person would understand why I'm voting BBT.

Talk to us like we're five and incompetent. Besides what I've mentioned above (the fact that you town-read Csareo) give us the ESPN Highlight Reel of why you are voting BBT.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Boonskiies

[Green Crayons]

Scum FG could quite easily have come in and joined either my wagon or the Csareo wagon and I don't think anybody would have looked at him twice for it. Why would he try to break down not one wagon, but BOTH leading wagons as scum when he has a D1 lynch right there if he wants it?

I see your question as written, but I read it as: why would scum do something that makes them look reasonable and level headed, which will hopefully reap a long-term benefit (becoming trusted by the town) over an immediate benefit of a D1 lynch (that, as a matter of probabilities, will likely be of a town anyways)?


And when I read your question that way, it sort of answers itself.

[Green Crayons]

@Boon:

Here are the points against you that are convincing me. Please address as you see fit:

Immediately after my vote on him, Boon completely disappeared. At the time of your request, he hadn't done anything to make me move my vote, and his vote in 467 was pretty rubbish too. 476 has him casually mention the "double-scum-gambit" possibility which, really, people, can we all agree that's a little obtuse? Like this:

Granted, there's still the possibility of both of you being scum, which in case, it gives even more reason for you guys to try to stay away from a lynch.

makes no sense. If you're both scum, you practically WANT a lynch here, because (to most of us) it would auto-townie the other one. Pushing the double-scum-gambit as even a possibility here just keeps it in people's minds.

750 - Continuing to feed the "neighbors are both scum" conspiracy nonsense.
752 - His BBT vote is based solely on town-reading Csareo. That read is in 352 and is caused by one Csareo post.

<snip>

1235 - Continues to be the only person hunting an SK.

And this:

I have stated multiple reasons, and any competent person would understand why I'm voting BBT.

Talk to us like we're five and incompetent. Besides what I've mentioned above (the fact that you town-read Csareo) give us the ESPN Highlight Reel of why you are voting BBT.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Boonskiies

Never saw anything that addressed the actual case, only a PR claim. Posting it again.

[Green Crayons]

Seriously, how about you guys "accept lynches" on people with giant cases against them, and not dump your vote based on some throwaway baloney from the beginning of the day? After 66 pages, you would think you'd have better criteria to choose from.

What does this even mean

He's referring to the fact that Doogal is willing to vote Jagged because he reads the slot as scum in light of a single event that happened on page 7ish of the game.

Incidentially, I'm reading that slot as town because of the very same event.

[Green Crayons]

@FakeGod, I agree, there has been a lot of very unproductive conversation in this thread.

You didn't seem to mind it at all!

You and your predecessor has combined post of 28.

In comparison, mods combined have 27.

This criticism doesn't even make sense.

[Green Crayons]

It looked like you were saying that there was a lot of useless conversation in the thread, but Jagged wasn't one of the players making useless conversation, and that was a bad thing.

[Green Crayons]

Now that I see what you're actually saying, I'm not sure how Jagged could have done this nebulous "something" to change that, since I recall several examples of different other people telling folks to stop perpetuating the same conversations over and over again, and that always failed.

[Green Crayons]

But I also really don't care, so I don't know why I followed up with that.

[Green Crayons]

I'm fine with lynching Boon, as I don't particularly value a tracker PR, and a scum flip would make me feel better about FG and massive.


I just want to see if he actually has something to say w/r/t the points massive made against him.

[Green Crayons]

@Boon:

Here are the points against you that are convincing me. Please address as you see fit:

Immediately after my vote on him, Boon completely disappeared. At the time of your request, he hadn't done anything to make me move my vote, and his vote in 467 was pretty rubbish too. 476 has him casually mention the "double-scum-gambit" possibility which, really, people, can we all agree that's a little obtuse? Like this:

Granted, there's still the possibility of both of you being scum, which in case, it gives even more reason for you guys to try to stay away from a lynch.

makes no sense. If you're both scum, you practically WANT a lynch here, because (to most of us) it would auto-townie the other one. Pushing the double-scum-gambit as even a possibility here just keeps it in people's minds.

750 - Continuing to feed the "neighbors are both scum" conspiracy nonsense.
752 - His BBT vote is based solely on town-reading Csareo. That read is in 352 and is caused by one Csareo post.

<snip>

1235 - Continues to be the only person hunting an SK.

And this:

I have stated multiple reasons, and any competent person would understand why I'm voting BBT.

Talk to us like we're five and incompetent. Besides what I've mentioned above (the fact that you town-read Csareo) give us the ESPN Highlight Reel of why you are voting BBT.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Boonskiies

Never saw anything that addressed the actual case, only a PR claim. Posting it again.

Anything, Boon?

[Green Crayons]

This is how confident I am in scum using Wake and Csaero to distract the town. I am willing to give up a PR over it (even if it is just a tracker).

1) Where has scum used wake to distract the town?
2) What does lynching someone that might be a PR prove?

[Green Crayons]

I had posted my intent to vote way earlier than my actual vote.

Is this a thing you normally do when it isn't going to be a hammer? Because posting an intent to vote is not something that looks town.

[Green Crayons]

Kill: Csareo

.

[Green Crayons]

If only.

VOTE: Boon.

[Green Crayons]

Yes, it is something I normally do. Why doesn't it look town exactly? Would you rather me put someone to L-2/L-1 instantly?

You said you posted your intent to vote BBT back when BBT didn't have a lot of votes on him. So, you wouldn't have put him at L-2/L-1.

It's not town because if there's no L-2/L-1 situation, then your vote doesn't need to be preemptively declared.

Having no real justification, announcing an intent to vote looks like you were simply testing the waters to see how others would approve of your BBT suspicions, or maybe waiting to get on the wagon at the "right" time.

[Green Crayons]

The fact that you had just made a case against BBT also cuts against what you're saying. You made a case on him. Obviously you were on his mind, and willing to vote for him.

In contrast, if you had not made a case on BBT, but were wanting people to know that you thought BBT was pretty suspicious, an intent to vote announcement would still look weird (as opposed to simply saying you agree with the suspicions of BBT), but would make more sense.

I don't see a town purpose of following up a case with an intent to vote announcement.

[Green Crayons]

It's not "not voting someone." I don't care that you didn't vote BBT at that point in time.

It's telling the thread "Yo I'm planning on voting this guy, is that okay with everyone? I don't want my actions to look too suspicious."

[Green Crayons]

@wake:

in your opinion, is tracker a common enough role for the lack of a courter claim sufficient evidence to prove the validity of the PR claim?

I'd only go with cop and doctor.

[Green Crayons]

The "Intent to vote" is a bad reason to vote someone.

I've done it plenty of times when putting someone at L-1 or L-2.

Yes, it is something I normally do. Why doesn't it look town exactly? Would you rather me put someone to L-2/L-1 instantly?

You said you posted your intent to vote BBT back when BBT didn't have a lot of votes on him. So, you wouldn't have put him at L-2/L-1.

You have failed to read the thread. Again.

Your comment is therefore not relevant to the thread. Again.

Read the thread or go away.

[Green Crayons]

It's not "not voting someone." I don't care that you didn't vote BBT at that point in time.

It's telling the thread "Yo I'm planning on voting this guy, is that okay with everyone? I don't want my actions to look too suspicious."

Because every time I fucking put my vote on someone I get attacked all the time, and have to completely repost the same freaking post like three times before people finally stop badgering me about votes. Next time I'll just keep all my reads to myself and just put a damn naked vote. Because it's as if I'm doing that anyways.

Wow. I didn't think you were actually going to admit that your intent to vote announcement was to check and make sure a BBT vote got thread approval before you followed through.

[Green Crayons]

Are you freaking kidding me....

@GC - How come you scum read me for the same things BBT is doing, yet you don't scum read him?

What are you referring to?

[Green Crayons]

Heh. I'm going to take this moment to pat myself on the back.


Feels good.

[Green Crayons]

Without revealing your partner(s), obviously.

Why not? A mason confirms his partner as town. A mason would explain a lot, including the staticity of his wagon.

lol

Look at what you're saying is town, FG. Just look at it.

[Green Crayons]

Now that I have claimed Mason, can everyone tell me their thoughts on TTH?

It's like a two and a half neighborhood.

If you are one of three Neighbors, chances are reasonable that one of the other Neighbors is scum.

(shrug) I don't know if that really applies, though, because of the obvious limitation.

[Green Crayons]

Without revealing your partner(s), obviously.

Why not? A mason confirms his partner as town. A mason would explain a lot, including the staticity of his wagon.

lol

Look at what you're saying is town, FG. Just look at it.

Being town does not make one proficient.

It's not about Csareo being wrong about BBT. It's about Csareo wanting BBT to out his partner.

[Green Crayons]

lol

You should read this: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mason

[Green Crayons]

BBT: is it only one other mason?

[Green Crayons]

If Csareo is town, BBT is scum: lol BBT isn't scum so I'm not even going to think hard about a scenario that isn't plausible
If Csareo is scum, BBT is town: TTH and Doogal are pretty high on my list of suspects, considering play and wagon timing.
If Csareo is town, BBT is town: TTH OR Doogal, Ruffling OR massive (OR maaaybe Omph -- I'm not digging his complete absence), and I feel like I should say Anatole OR Jagged, but I like their posting so it hurts me to say that

My "or" pairings in the town/town scenario do not necessarily exclude the other party, I just paired the players from each wagon who strike me as most suspicious in a town/town scenario based off of game memory of everyone's play.

Let's lynch Csareo so we can figure out which of the scenarios we're facing.

[Green Crayons]

Vote: Jagged

Don't be daft.

Because: ____

[Green Crayons]

@FG:

what's your theory about why a tracker is more likely given the mason/neighbor setup?

You said that it was more likely, but didn't say why.

[Green Crayons]

Also:

Vote: Jagged

Don't be daft.

Because: ____

[Green Crayons]

UNVOTE:

You make a fair point about the tracker, and I hadn't really thought the implication through that if another investigative role does indeed show up before Boon is dead, then Boon's going to get lynched.

[Green Crayons]

UNVOTE: Boon

Got to get it right.

[Green Crayons]

I hear you on Jagged's lack of enthusiastic posting, but it sounds like you're suggesting it as a basis for a policy lynch rather than a lurker lynch, and I'm not keen on a policy lynch after the heartache that has been D1.

I ISO'd Jagged to bring myself up to date with his game play. He came into the game and voiced criticisms of a multitude of folks, including Flubber, Dougal, your slot, and myself. It was only until his reread that he produced a slew of null reads, and then a single scum read on Dougal that he retracted in his next post.

I credit that this could align with defensive scum play. Fair. It could also align with a player who replaced into a VT slot overwhelmed by the really bad, circular conversations that weren't particularly insightful in sussing out alignments. And reading Jagged's posts feel more like the latter than the former.

Also, I'm not convinced as some of the other folks in this game that GreyICE-scum would have made up an easily figured out lie to justify a vote, and his long silence and subsequent dropping speaks like embarrassed town to me.


My alternative would be either TTH or Dougal.

[Green Crayons]

"but it sounds like you're suggesting it as a basis for a policy lynch rather than a lurker lynch" -- I mean that in it does not appear that you're suggesting he's active lurking, just that he's disengaged from the game.

[Green Crayons]

My alternative would be either TTH or Dougal.

You should start the wagon.

I would be interested in seeing where it goes.

I had to go wash some dishes. A great, mindless activity allowing one to ruminate about mafia.

[Green Crayons]

I agree, Boon, in the sense that I would prefer pursuing TTH over Dougal.

VOTE: TTH

- The neighbor thing. Not going to escape it for the rest of the game. Her jumping right out of the gate and pursuing the vote-her-neighbor strategy sounds like an easy to justify mislynch for scum to use. (Also, while I'm not particularly fond of trying to outguess the setup, but a neighbor setup where each member is also a member of another night-talking group of different alignments sounds like something someone thought was cute when coming up with the neighbor/mason idea.)

- Several folks have noted her lack of assertiveness. I liked what Boon said about that:

The confusion and lack of knowing what to read sounds like new scum, and considering it's her first game here, I could see it.

- She got defensive in Post 1215 and Post 1406 about scrutiny shining on the BBT wagon if BBT was in fact town and Csareo was in fact scum. The defensiveness was unwarranted considering that is the logical place to look should that scenario actually exist, and the defensiveness was using overblown rhetoric ("witch hunting"). TTH, of course, was on the BBT wagon.

[Green Crayons]

I'm aware that lurker tell is a weak tell.

However, there is a notable difference from the usual lurker tell:

his precedessor

.

GreyICE also lurked, managing a total of 10 posts before replacing out.

Because there are two independent players who lurked in the same slot, I would guess that lurking is stemming from the role, rather than the playstyle.

I just touched on this:

Also, I'm not convinced as some of the other folks in this game that GreyICE-scum would have made up an easily figured out lie to justify a vote, and his long silence and subsequent dropping speaks like embarrassed town to me.

The game started on Sunday, September 7. From that point until GreyICE's LAL vote against Anatole on Tuesday, September 9, he made 8 posts out of the approximately 100 game-related posts. Out of 13 players, that isn't lurking.

GreyICE made his LAL vote against Anatole, and the thread collectively explained just how bad he was at reading a previous game. GreyICE then doesn't say anything for over 300 posts, finally chiming in on Friday, September 12 to state that he's not really doing anything with the game. Then, complete radio silence, and he's finally replaced one week later on Friday, September 19.


So, you mentioning the total number of posts GreyICE had in the abstract completely ignores the context in which those posts were made. GreyICE was average active until his really bad LAL vote. He then effectively dropped out of the game, but a replacement didn't show up for another week.

[Green Crayons]

Csareo claimed VT a while ago.

I'm going camping now. V/LA until after the deadline. Good luck thread.

[Green Crayons]

UNVOTE:

Phone posting. Only skimmed the pages since Saturday morning. Back from V/LA and will give some better input later.

I see why a vengeful scum would claim vengeful town, but TTH looks town these pas few days.

I would like her opinion on massive, including why she suspects him and what gave her cold feet.

[Green Crayons]

Also, TTH: why did you think you were going to be a distraction for FG?

Was that only the motivation for your claim at L-4?

[Green Crayons]

@Anatole:

1) Reading your ISO, I came away with one, consistent theme: GreyICE is super suspicious for his single LAL vote against you. However, I found this to be an odd exchange:

Are you townreading GreyICE for being an opportunistic liar or for being a hypocrite?

I think GreyICE is over-zealously pushing a misunderstanding based on a couple behaviors I'm seeing. He asked you twice prior to the "calling out" post what your experience with neighbors was (post 73 and post 81).

To me, this seems indicative of someone who thinks he's caught you in a contradiction and wants to make sure you're actually making the argument he thinks you're making. I can't think of any scum motivation GreyICE would have in allowing you to correct yourself. The "gotcha'!" post itself (post 106) reads as genuine as well; the large, bolded font, the short sentence structure, and the link to the actual game in question all imply confidence to me that I don't think would be seen in scum, especially given that anyone can follow the link and judge the game for themselves.

While his efforts here are misguided, I think GreyICE actually believes what he's saying.

I'm inclined to agree, which makes it even more annoying.

for the record - I wasn't trying to avoid answering his question, I just couldn't remember games in particular without breaking any site rules about referring to ongoing games (which is the main reason why I won't discuss any others, unless greyice digs another game up that had neighbors).

Why did you make a full 180 retreat from this position?


2) It took until Post 1100 for you to suggest that you found someone

other

than GreyICE suspicious. Why so long? (You've mentioned several times that you form townreads before scumreads, so am I to presume that it takes you over a 1000 posts to figure out more than one suspicious player?)


3) Was Post 1107, where you simply ask Rufflig what he thinks about BBT, in response to his comment that he's curious about what you think about BBT, the only push on your Rufflig suspicions? I didn't see anything else. Why such a sparse push? What did it tell you about Rufflig?


4) You state that you think Rufflig was suspicious for "asking for pressure or implying there is something I'm not being upfront about despite me answering any question given," and then suggested that Rufflig and Flubber

both

acted in this manner. So, then, why didn't you mention being willing to vote Flubber in Post 1100?

[Green Crayons]

w/r/t # 4) above, I pulled that first quote from Post 1211 and Post 1212.

[Green Crayons]

with regards to


I'm just lazy.

[Green Crayons]

TTH:

I didn't highlight this as being directed to you, so I'm just repeating it with a notation that it is for your attention:

I would like her opinion on massive, including why she suspects him and what gave her cold feet.

I will note that you have stated some basis for suspecting massive (Post 1415), but those just aren't striking me as convincing. However, you've sounded your massive suspicions repeatedly and consistently throughout the game, so I was hoping that you might have something more.

[Green Crayons]

@Titus:

VCA is a big part of my game so I tend to do things like vote just to make wagons even.

Well, then, here you go:

Vote Count 1.07

BlueBloodedToffee(6)

– TellTaleHeart, Flubbernugget, Csareo, Boonskiies, Doogal121, Wake88

Csareo(5)

– Omph, The Rufflig, Green Crayons, BlueBloodedToffee, massive

JaggedAppliance(1)

– Anatole Kuragin

Not Voting(1)

- JaggedAppliance[/area]

<snip>

If Csareo is town, BBT is town: TTH OR Doogal, Ruffling OR massive (OR maaaybe Omph -- I'm not digging his complete absence), and I feel like I should say Anatole OR Jagged, but I like their posting so it hurts me to say that

My "or" pairings in the town/town scenario do not necessarily exclude the other party, I just paired the players from each wagon who strike me as most suspicious in a town/town scenario based off of game memory of everyone's play.

The quoted vote count is basically what this game looked like for a disgusting length of time. If you are in fact town, then the two leading, deadlocked wagons -- which basically defined this game up until Omph was replaced by FG -- were town versus town. There is a VCA, minus a L-1 and hammer vote, to help you along your analysis.

-----

Speaking of VCA, and based solely on VCA theory, I'm inclined to believe that one of players not voting Csareo or BBT in the quoted VC is scum (Anatole or Jagged). Their lack of a position on the two leading wagons, one being definitely town and one probably town, gives them cred for not being on a mislynch, and for rising above a game bitterly divided on which townie to kill. Also, jumping onto one of the wagons would have brought some seriously harsh attention upon themselves, so they were very much stuck in being prevented from voting either Csareo or BBT.


Stepping away from VCA theory, I think Jagged's play looks town, and his slot looks town because of his predecessor GreyICE's particular actions. I set forth my reasons for this position in Post 1935 and Post 1946, and I stand by them. I don't think a Jagged lynch is a good lynch.


In contrast, I did not care much for Anatole's ISO. I will note that I was quite comfortable with his posting as I was experiencing it live. But on reread, it looks a lot less town:
- Lots of posts, but they didn't actually contribute much. / Minimal scum hunting while maintaining an active presence.
- Used GreyICE's single poorly researched vote as his go-to suspicion as thousands (literally) of posts accumulated in the game.
- But Anatole appeared to agree, before GreyICE decided to escape the game, that GreyICE's bad vote looked actually like mistaken town -- and it was only when GreyICE had clearly retreated from the game that Anatole used the bad vote to his full advantage to label the slot as scum.


I was going to wait until Anatole's response to my Post 2325 to vote him, but that was because I wasn't going to talk through the problems I had with his play upon the ISO reread until then. But because I have set forth those reasons above, and because I have no additional reason to wait, I'll VOTE: Anatole.

[Green Crayons]

I've been making long posts again.


Sorry.

[Green Crayons]

Guys, Jagged's lack of scumhunting is a lot more recent than AK's, keeping in mind AK usually doesn't post on weekends.

lol

1) Yes, but Anatole spent 1000+ posts not scum hunting. And then did it in a minimalist, unobtrusive fashion.

2) Actually, Jagged did a bit of scum hunting over the weekend, so he's got Anatole "beat" by your peculiar standard of vote worthiness.

3) This is a weird argument because both Anatole and the Jagged slot have not provided much substance, so how does the recent quality of either's contribution relate to alignment?

[Green Crayons]

At least give AK the chance to replace out when he sees this shitfest.

Also, what?

[Green Crayons]

@Green, BBT, TTH Seriously? Another wagon? Come on!!!!! (Jagged, I forgive you for jumping on this for self preservation purposes)

To quote one of my favorite players (Untrod Tripod): I'm not searching for "the platonic ideal of wagoniness." I don't think anyone is in this game, actually.

I do recognize that we need to lynch

someone

, and that that person might actually claim in the march up to that lynch. However, recognizing that we need to lynch someone doesn't mean that we shouldn't take into account the role reveals as they develop, evaluate those claims and the wagons on them, and shift our focus on other players as appropriate.

Your message is basically, "hey we have five claims, so we should lynch out of that pool even if you don't think that any of them are a helpful lynch to the town." From my position, you post is declaring that I should vote either a claimed, non-counter-claimed, appropriate-given-the-mason/neighbor-scenario PR (Boon), a 99% likely town player (BBT), a person whose likely-town flip won't tell us much (Jagged), a person whose probable-town flip won't tell us much (TTH), or Csareo's slot who doesn't have enough votes to push through a lynch.

No thank you.

[Green Crayons]

The two outted PRs can be scum-aligned, so even if someone is lying, it isn't necessarily about their power, just their alignment.

[Green Crayons]

I think it's a distinction worth mentioning.

[Green Crayons]

I'll be completely honest, part of my reaction to GreyICE was a pretty childish pride and I wanted him to be embarrased for such an obvious fuck-up trying to make a case towards me. I wanted the attention to stay on him as long as he was in the game until he came back in, apologized, and looked like an idiot. Jagged Alliance is scummy for different reasons, basically the same stuff you would probably accuse me of with the addition of opportunistic voting.

I can't tell if you're saying that my 180 retreat was me townreading or scumreading him. Can you elaborate on what exactly you find suspicious?

You first townread GreyICE in the quoted exchange with TTH, but then you spent the rest of the game saying that he was scum for the very same actions. That's suspicious in and of itself because you gave no reason why you distanced your earlier townread.

It's also suspicious because you then used your 180 flip to push ONLY "GreyICE is scum" for 1000 posts.

It's also suspicious because when I asked how GreyICE's actions were "scum," rather than simply "anti-town," you embraced your full 180 from your exchange with TTH -- where you were "inclined to agree" that GreyICE's actions were those of town, in light of the town-justifications TTH gave for GreyICE's actions -- and said that you couldn't conceive why town would have acted the way GreyICE acted (Post 1099). But your interaction with TTH makes clear that you

could

imagine why town would have acted in the way GreyICE did. In fact, it wasn't just a possibility, it was a scenario you were "inclined to agree" with. In light of you disowning your TTH interaction, Post 1099 looks like a lie to justify your GreyICE drumbeat.

I don't see the scum case here.[/quote
]
These were just questions. I think you're lynch worthy for the reasons set forth in Post 2354.

[Green Crayons]

And your only suspicion voiced for 1000+ posts being about one post, made on page 5, that you had already admitted was likely to be a town mistake.

[Green Crayons]

So it looks like scum play.

[Green Crayons]

(shrug)

If that's all you've got -- "but surely there's scum on either the Csareo or BBT wagons!" (which is not something I disagree with) -- then I'm happy with my vote.

[Green Crayons]

(shrug)

If that's all you've got -- "but surely there's scum on either the Csareo or BBT wagons!" (which is not something I disagree with) -- then I'm happy with my vote.

So you want me to defend myself further than offering an explanation for the things you asked about that show there are clearly players that have acted scummier?

lol

This doesn't even make sense. I'm not offering you a dichotomy: defend yourself OR point to scummier players.

I made my case against you. You're defense is "but other people!" without specifying what other people, or why. I'm happy to conclude that that response is no defense at all to my case. You basically admit that your play is scummy, but that a group of no less than 11 other players probably contain someone who is scum. And the only indication that their play is scumm

ier

than yours is that they were voting either Csareo or BBT. Riiiiiiight.


If you want to try to persuade me why someone else would be a better D1 lynch than yourself, go for it. My proverbial ears are open.

[Green Crayons]

You could start by explaining why you took a 180 on GreyICE, and you could address the accusation that I made: that you lied in 1099 when you attempted to justify you lone GreyICE suspicions.

[Green Crayons]

You could also explain what is it about a new day that will give you immense insight that 99 pages don't.

[Green Crayons]

The lie was that you told me you couldn't see why town would have acted the way GreyICE did. The falsehood comes into play by the fact that you agreed with TTH's reasoning of why town would have made the push -- so you could, in fact, see why town would have acted the way GreyICE did.


Whose flip would be most informative for your analysis? Why? I believe your current list of suspects is nobody, since you unvoted Boon after he claimed and have recently disavowed your Rufflig and Flubber suspicions.

[Green Crayons]

@massive:

Purely from a game setup perspective, I agreed with FG's assertion that tracker is more likely than full cop because with a mason setup, we've got two confirmable townies, in addition to the vengeful/neighbor setup, which (if town) allows town another semi-comfortable town slot plus an ability to hit back at scum if mislynched.

Throw on top of that a regular investigator role that tells us town/scum, and I'm thinking that the town is simply too overpowered. Take away all investigator roles, and I would think town is too underpowered. A tracker role seems to be just right, even if you want to hypothesize that the vengeful/neighbor is actually scum.

That's why I'm willing to wait on Boon to see if later, at the appropriate time (because of a result or death), another investigative role comes to light. If so, I would be happy to lynch Boon 100%.

[Green Crayons]

The AK and TTH wagons both look like counter-wagons and Crayons and JA were both on both wagons.

For the record:

I started both wagons (my placement on the current Anatole wagon is incorrect, due to mod error). I made such votes because (1) I have repeatedly stated why I think a Jagged lynch is not good, and (2) I explained why I thought these other players were more scummy and deserving of a lynch.

Vote Count error fixed!

- Bert

[Green Crayons]

I think it was a close game to the very end. GG all.


Wake, I accept your premise of challenge everything, but can't follow you to the point of you challenging some pretty obvious stuff - such as perhaps BBT not being a mason even after I flipped. That's probably my only criticism of your play. Congrats on catching the problems with massive's claim.


Most fun part of watching from the dead thread was definitely Boon's decision to no kill going from "that's never going to work" to "that might work because Titus is nowhere to be found!" to "oh man this is going to bomb now that Titus is back" to "oh man this just might work after all!"