Capcom Crossover Chaos - GAME OVER~

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

vote: ZZZX

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

also a preemptive apology to MS bc he and I were supposed to hydra for this but when he first asked me I thought I wouldn't have enough time for this game ;w;

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

VOTE: Jonin Touhou Shonen-Tan

oh god

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

why the fuck aren't you people lynching me

Mind claiming flavor as well?

I agree that jester seems unlikely, but I'm suspicious of shenanigans.

-kagami

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Wisdom's vote is a good one, but we really need to sort the UT thing out. UT can't be alive at night if he's telling the truth.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Wisdom's vote is a good one, but we really need to sort the UT thing out. UT can't be alive at night if he's telling the truth.

Because lynching someone who has no effect on achieving your wincon seems like a

brilliant

idea.

I think next we should have a cop claim and lynch him! I mean, he wins with town too! He could be a threat later if all scum are godfathers!

It's in your best interest to vote town should you make it to lylo. That's a problem.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Wisdom's vote is a good one, but we really need to sort the UT thing out. UT can't be alive at night if he's telling the truth.

and how do you suggest we do that?

~Wis

We see what he says and evaluate the possibilities based on that. Flavor claim is a good start.

His role is exceedingly dangerous if it's truthful, and I think DN's point about the claim being terrible for a jester is correct. It would be also an idiotic fake-claim for scum, since there is bound to be someone interested in joining the cult for giggles.

-kagami

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

O hi. I don't post much on the weekends, as many of you prob already know, but I'm keeping up. Our reads are mostly aligned, and I'll mostly omit those where pie and I don't entirely agree.

reads post:

We generally think that ooba, bulb, shos, zxxxzx, and sonic are probably town. We're reasonably confident Wischo is also non-mafia.

I personally think droog is town here (pie has a null opinion) and dram as well.

Many of those reads are coming from interactions with our scumreads, an early one of which was GGG. I had pegged him as high probability scum fairly early on, to which pie agreed, but I didn't want to pursue it prior to dealing with the anti-town claims (which I'll discuss in the next post). We also find bro and adorkable are highly suspect.

We haven't synced on the rest of the playerlist.

-kagami

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Ok, now for the survivors and the goo.

Firstly, any suggestion of leaving the goo alive is both stupid and highly suspect. The probability of a busdriver or redirector is very high in this game. Suggesting he be dayvigged is obviously correct and thankfully that's what happened.

Alright, Survivors. Survivors need to die, and soon. If they're day X survivors (i.e. the not-so-terrible version), they can live, but neither has claimed that. It doesn't matter how congenial or "useful" a survivor is, a survivor reduces the number of lynches the town has by one, just like an additional scum player would. They have no role that is useful to town, and "saving them for later" is stupid. Later is when we're most likely to have identified scum; day 1 is when we're least likely to have done so accurately. Lynching the survivor claim removes an anti-town role without potentially revealing and/or losing power with a mislynch, and is a very reasonable play. Vigging the survivor is a fine alternative, but having the vig's shot set like that means we have to worry about bus drivers or even a scum doc.

Ok, so is skitty a survivor? Nacho says no, basically because ns hates scum (which is true), and he would do anything to get a free shot at coasting. I would be more convinced about this if it were ns solo, but to my knowledge caled doesn't have the same distaste for scum. Ns could always just ask for caled to take the reigns for him. Anyway, it doesn't really matter so much, since this slot is the optimal lynch anyway. It is definitely suspect that kise would put two of a terrible role in the game.

I considered the possibility that ns is a survivor and MM is a lyncher, but that can't be the case since MM apparently correctly guessed ns's unusual win-con. MM pretty much has to be as he's claimed.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

cn u walk me through the dram townread and bro and adorkable scumreads?

in a sec, let me thought-dump first.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Ok, a bit of setup stuff. Given this is a bastard game, I don't want to harp on it too much, but I think the survivor win-con is worth thinking about.

Why would they only win with mafia or town (and not the cult, which we know to potentially have existed).

I think the wording is deliberately chosen to exclude other factions. I.e. it's not just that this is mafia v. town and kise just wrote it that way without thinking about the implications to setup-spec.

One possibility is that they're intended not to win with an SK, but that seems like a really silly thing, since SKs already have a hard enough time winning.

I think the most likely possibilities are:

1) A real cult, probably with a limited recruiter
2) No mafia, werewolves instead.

In the latter case, the survivors are nerfed town and don't know it yet. I'm not sure how likely that is, but it is giving me second thoughts about the skitty lynch.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

And if it's not obvious, I'm sort of suspicious of wischo as cult given their interactions with UT, but I'd need actual evidence of a cult for that since otherwise he seems non-scum. Pie is indifferent to that opinion.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

cn u walk me through the dram townread and bro and adorkable scumreads?

Ok, so dram is in part because he's unapologetically stating an unpopular opinion, which happens to also be correct. He has absolutely no reason as scum to be pushing skitty-lynch because of survivor. It would be super easy to just agree with wischo or even to just let the wagon happen and lurk.

Adorkable is in part by feels of both me and pie, another part is that the reasons for voting GGG are not the things that I find scummy about him, and look somewhat invented.

Bro was pie's catch that I agree with to an extent. He felt like bro's entrance was one-linery and lacking in the sort of scumhunting aggression that he had seen in other games. He points out that bro feels like his AoT self, which I don't really remember well enough to be able to agree with. I mostly just feel like bro and I tend to think alike about a lot of things and that it's odd that he didn't come up with a similar suspect list.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

And if it's not obvious, I'm sort of suspicious of wischo as cult given their interactions with UT, but I'd need actual evidence of a cult for that since otherwise he seems non-scum. Pie is indifferent to that opinion.

what interactions are those exactly?

You seemed interested in keeping him alive, positing that he's a jester and that, if truthful, we could just not target him.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

yall rang?

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

We generally think that ooba, bulb, shos, zxxxzx, and sonic are probably town. We're reasonably confident Wischo is also non-mafia.

I personally think droog is town here (pie has a null opinion) and dram as well.

^ I have droog as town and dramonic as null. Nacho is also a strong read for me; the main point I remember is the mollie interaction, but there's a lot more.

I'd like to know what games pie is referring to because I can only recall AoT and imperishable night.

AOT, NY169

the main thing driving my scum read on you isn't the fact you're 1-lining, but that there's a distinct lack of scumhunting, and then when we started to get scumhunting we got your point about coaching which was pretty ass (shos has no reason as scum to openly call out NS POSTCLAIM, since doing so wouldn't actually help NS any and would just serve to make both of them look bad. but you try to spin it as "no town motivation" instead). will prob elaborate more on this later tonight when I'm not busy

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

^ don't like that post btw

bah

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

AOT, NY169

also I forgot about NY167

I wasn't in it, but I have read it

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Your Adorkable/Bro reads are interesting to me, especially considering Bro was oddly sensitive towards Ooba regarding Adorkable. Bro doesn't really feel like he did in AoT because his play there was oddly wacky and scummy coming from him.

the main parallel I'm seeing is that of specious or otherwise manipulative argumentation

if you remember from that game, a lot of the arguments he was pushing weren't actually correct and were generally very shallow. he also heavily relied on this in NY167. on the other hand, in my experience with town BRO, all his arguments were *very* rock solid and logical. the coaching point reads as an example of this

I also thought it was weird that he brought up Wicked, bc if you look at his Mala case from that game, he had a lot more on Mala than what he has here and the arguments he had were a lot better, and it doesn't make sense that he would believe his coaching argument here with the same amount of conviction that he believed in his Mala case from that game. I think it comes from more of a scum-seeking-approval mindset than a town-trying-to-figure-things-out mindset. there are other posts that gave me similar vibes

there's some other things I think are individually scummy, which will have to wait until later bc no time atm. I'm also taking into account that BRO's scum play in AOT was probably the most obvious scum play I've seen, so I'd expect his play to generally be better than that.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

And if it's not obvious, I'm sort of suspicious of wischo as cult given their interactions with UT, but I'd need actual evidence of a cult for that since otherwise he seems non-scum. Pie is indifferent to that opinion.

Did you fully read our interactions with UT? I pointed out that this was a bastard game and so there was probably going to be a day killing role that could take care of him. I said I would lynch him if for some reason there wasn't a day killing role that took care of him.
...

You mentioned that UT was inevitably going to be dayvigged in 76, and mention again that he'd be a good dayvig in 183, but you don't want to lynch him. Neither reflects a desire to see him die. You mentioned somewhere that nacho wanted to vote him, but didn't act on that.

-kagami

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

played with droog scum twice, including being in a hood with him. It's just a meta-feel mostly for me.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Kagami, see 850.

I don't think Wischo thought UT shouldn't die, they just didn't want to lynch him in case he was a jester. I don't see how asking for a Dayvig reflects a lack of desire to see UT die.

They didn't ask for him to die, they accepted it as an inevitability if a dayvig exists.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I only thought of this now, but UT wouldn't have claimed that day actions were ok if he were a jester, which apparently occurred to no one.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

So, what's your point Kagami? Because the only thing I saw was them not wanting to lynch UT in case they're a jester.

I was answering wischo's question. I don't think this is actually a fruitful direction of discussion.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

...

GUYS I KNOW THE PASSWORD NOW DONT WORRY

Have you been communicating with ns prior to your in-thread entry?

-kagami

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Did he give a reason for claiming survivor without running it by you first?

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

He specifically said that day actions wouldn't trigger it. The dayvig is town.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

OK, fully elaborating on the BRO read

so the first thing I want to address is his initial stream of catchup posts (153-184). I, more or less, hated it because if you factor out all the theory and setup spec, you are left with essentially nothing. it's, save for one post, 100% theory and shit about the setup, and then he announces 2 town reads at the end, one of which (TWOH) was left unexplained.

now, you might say "setup spec is null", but in this context, it's scummy. why? there is a very distinct lack of scumhunting anywhere in here at all. it is a very basic tactic to comment on irrelevant things, or poke at things here and there, in order to appear like you're doing smth when you're really not. the reads he did give at the end weren't particularly telling either way, but I think that if he was town here, there would likely be more focus on explaining reads and trying to extract information from players here, as opposed to doing nothing but talking about the setup and only devoting a few lines to actual play. the only other sign of him scum hunting was him poking at ooba/adorkable, which by itself is meh.

Gonna do some maths.

I'm thinking that there's a 60% chance UT is telling the truth, 35% chance he's a jester, and 5% chance he's scum.

By those odds, Dayvig strictly dominates a lynch, which has a higher EV than not lynching if we assume jester is non win-stealing. If it's win-stealing, not lynching is stronger.

I'll deal with sorting the details of that if/when it becomes clear we don't have a dayvig.

Regarding the survivors, I'm fine leaving them around for now. Vig should go and clean them up, though; no reason to potentially hit a town PR when NS has basically said that he's going to do nothing and just sheep the largest wagon all game.

Early town reads on Bulba and Heaven slot. I agree with Bulba that AA9 is sketch, but AA9 is also always bad like that, so I'll hold off there.

I really didn't like this, in particular. it doesn't seem like it's coming from a mindset of trying to figure anything out; if you look at the reasoning he was using, most of the conclusions are pretty obvious, and I don't see why it was necessary to introduce the math into it. it should really be common sense not lynching a jester is more optimal than lynching if it's win-stealing. I feel like it's coming more from a scum-trying-to-gain-approval mindset with all the shiny numbers as opposed to actually trying to accomplish anything.

like broseidon's entrance

<3

Also there's certain people I want to post who aren't posting and it makes me sad

I didn't like either of these posts. neither of them add anything to the game; they are more posts that I feel are coming more from a scum-trying-to-gain-approval mindset as opposed to a town-trying-to-figure-things out mindset.

now, this isn't much of a tell by itself, but it is part of a long pattern of posts that make me think his play this game is coming from a consistently scum mindset, so in that context I think this is relevant. there are more posts that give me similar vibes down the line.

moving onto the 2nd catchup (413-431), it's more of the same - more 1-liners, more weak lines of questioning that don't actually lead anywhere, more setup spec

@Bro: Who is Adorkable? I didn't remember anybody like that from my read.

Uh...

guys

there's something very important we need to do first

I'm not really in this game. Don't bother voting/targeting me.

vote Kise

#2cheeky5me #yolo #sorrynotsorry

Vote: Major Minor

Your name and the confusion it engenders....

Scum - For ignoring the claims …

because we dont believe you

Scum

Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai is sketchy too

Major Minor -> Cult-something

So 3 pages have given us three scum and one cultist.. Sucks that UT is the best lynch though…

Vote: UT

So you're going to try to tell me that you straight up missed a page-top post two posts and ~30 minutes before your post?

this is the first *real* sign of scum hunting in his ISO, which I missed the first time bc I wasn't reading into it hard enough. I have to admit, I actually quite liked this. I know exactly what he was going for here, and it fits with the way he was poking at ooba/adorkable in his previous catchup. that's not to say this is unfakeable by any means, and I think he is definitely a skilled enough scum player to be able to fake this kind of read progression as scum - but I am taking it as at least a point in his favor if it becomes relevant later

Now that the game's started-

We are a survivor that wins with everyone.

Our flavor is Pacman. That being said, we're going to be jumping on the main wagon from here on out.

Course, I might have some witty banter for you all. One doesn't just get in this awesome playerlist and lurk the entire time. Pretty much all I'm going to do though.

skitty, why did you claim this? don't you know that survivor is a policy lycn?

Holy shit the coaching.

VOTE: Shos scum flip here is basically confscum Skitty ^_^

From a town POV, there isn't an incentive for understanding the reasons of Skitty's claim. If he really thinks that a survivor claim = policy lynch, he would just, y'know, push the lynch and not really care about any sort of "whys"

this is the second sign of scum hunting in his ISO. as I said, I absolutely fucking hate this. it is a completely specious argument. it is an argument he made bc he was looking for stuff to comment on, saw this, and thought he could easily attribute scum motivation to it in a way no one would contest.

however, if you actually think about it, it doesn't hold any water, for one basic reason. this so-called "coaching" happened _after NS claimed_. what the fuck does scum shos have to gain by "coaching" NS in that matter after he claimed? it's not like NS can just go back and retract the claim later and not expect to get policy lynched into the fucking ground. what he claims is "coaching" does not actually do anything to serve a shos/NS team and it would instead just make them look bad.

however, he completely ignores this and instead tries to spin it as "no town motivation". he is not actually looking for scum motivation in the way shos handled it.

this is typical scum behavior. it is a basic scum strategy to push arguments that are objectively true on a surface level, bc they *look* really good and are hard to defend against. he _knows_ this play from shos is really just a result of him acting in a stupid way and nothing more, and thus that he has no _real_ defense for it. so he just ignores the fact there isn't *actually* any scum motivation and instead keeps pushing on the fact that most town players wouldn't screw up and act that way.

Oh my god this is gonna me Mala from Wicked mafia all over again isn't it >:C

The point I'm making is that I'm making a valid but slightly nuanced point that you're going to ignore because you can't understand it for whatever reason.

this is *another* post that I feel is coming more from a scum-trying-to-seek-approval mindset than a town-trying-to-figure-things-out mindset. and the thing is, his frustration here seems entirely out of place. if you go to read Wicked, you will see that he pointed out a bunch of things about Mala and continuously argued for basically the entire D1 about it, while no one listened to him.

this is not the same situation at all. he only has one major point against shos (the coaching) and by itself it's kind of weak. it's not like he was continuously pushing it like he did in that game, and moreover, Skitty (you know, the other person in his shos/Skitty lineup) is the major wagon right now. the conviction here is totally misplaced, as if he's faking it.

this post is also *extremely* relevant for another reason I'll get into later

Like, why would Shos write what he wrote instead of just attacking if he were town? What's the incentive for softballing it.

you know how I said it's typical scum behavior to keep pushing someone over an objective thing because he knows they don't have a defense for it? lololol. in all honesty this post by itself is probably not telling either way, but it is consistent with the motivation I am attributing to his push.

I mentioned there were a lot of things I liked about TWOH's play. their 468 is one of them. reading back through the way BRO is handling the push here, this is exactly what I thought - trying to link shos with Skitty if Skitty is scum here - and Nacho reached the exact same conclusion as me. but anyway:

I'd like to know what games pie is referring to because I can only recall AoT and imperishable night. Also what your are referring to when you say we think alike because our only games together are AoT, earthbound, and xenosaga, none of which would lead me to that conclusion.

Also calling me scum for 1-linering is effectively calling me scum for existing.

this, by itself, is not particularly telling, but the last sentence is more specious argumentation. I never called him scum for 1-lining; I called him scum for 1-lining and setup spec'ing to the point of having no *actual* scumhunting. the point here is that he wasn't actually scum hunting, not just posting one-liners.

Your Adorkable/Bro reads are interesting to me, especially considering Bro was oddly sensitive towards Ooba regarding Adorkable. Bro doesn't really feel like he did in AoT because his play there was oddly wacky and scummy coming from him.

the main parallel I'm seeing is that of specious or otherwise manipulative argumentation

if you remember from that game, a lot of the arguments he was pushing weren't actually correct and were generally very shallow. he also heavily relied on this in NY167. on the other hand, in my experience with town BRO, all his arguments were *very* rock solid and logical. the coaching point reads as an example of this

I also thought it was weird that he brought up Wicked, bc if you look at his Mala case from that game, he had a lot more on Mala than what he has here and the arguments he had were a lot better, and it doesn't make sense that he would believe his coaching argument here with the same amount of conviction that he believed in his Mala case from that game. I think it comes from more of a scum-seeking-approval mindset than a town-trying-to-figure-things-out mindset. there are other posts that gave me similar vibes

there's some other things I think are individually scummy, which will have to wait until later bc no time atm. I'm also taking into account that BRO's scum play in AOT was probably the most obvious scum play I've seen, so I'd expect his play to generally be better than that.

In your experience with me where I've been scum like 1/2 the time, and in the town game you did cite (NY169) I played... very similar to how I'm playing here, actually.

You're also misrepresenting the Mala case. That Mala case wasn't a super rock-solid case in anyone's eyes but my own - fuck, everyone in that game let Mala get away with soft-CCing me as a conftown role because they thought my case was so thin.

(For reference: the read on Mala in that game was b/c she buddied a bad question of Mina's on page 2 or 3 that concerned hydras in a way that seemed slightly off, and her over defensive response led me to figuring out that she was scum with 2 hydras)

this post is bad bc the accusation of "misrep" is completely out of place.

I said that BRO's Mala case in Wicked was a lot better than his coaching case here. this is, pretty undeniably, true. moreover, I said BRO's arguments when town are generally rock-solid and logical (which btw is a huge difference from the kinds of specious arguments he's doing here lolol). this is, also, pretty undeniably true.

it was never my intention to, nor did I say, that everyone else in the game felt similarly to me about BRO's arguments. rather, I agree with him that everyone else was a derp and should have listened to him there. all I was insinuating was that, speaking completely objectively, BRO's arguments are logical, even if people don't see it sometimes. there is nothing I misrep'ed here, and the way he calls "misrep" is generally typical of scum who try to make the person attacking them look worse than them

now, I could potentially see him thinking his case was good when he was actually in the game, but then after going back and looking at it again thinking it wasn't. that'd be fine. but let me pull this up again:

Oh my god this is gonna me Mala from Wicked mafia all over again isn't it >:C

it is obvious that he (correctly imo) continues to think his case against Mala was correct. so I really don't see why he thought I was implying otherwise. I'd like for someone who disagrees with me on this to tell me what they think his thought process here actually was.

one more thing about the catchups (if anyone's still reading this lolol), this is a catchup from one of TOWN-BRO's games:

Spoiler:

Subject: NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

BROseidon, who are you feeling the least happy with so far. Not gonna expect full scum reads at this stage Roth do many having yet to put any pertinent input into this, but who is beeping on the radar at least in your eyes?

I'll get back to you after reading these ten pages.

You're scum doing this with only your best intentions in mind. It's anti-town. You need rope, but I'm already voting my other scum-read.

How is it antitown? The plan essentially gives him three days freedom as scum. This freedom is also time that I'm left alive to rampage all over the scumteam in typical Nacho fashion when he could instead just dodge me for a day and kill me in a night. He has also demonstrated the capacity to read me pretty fucking well based on the past few times we've played together, so it makes sense he would want to buy extra time to figure me out (considering he tends to be a kill priority for scum-Nacho).

If he's scum, why would you expect him to follow through on this?

Just to let everyone know this game is a town win.

I was hoping you drew scum

Why would you want a scumwin?

Thor liked MC's opening but it wasn't actually that great.

Nacho: answer me this:

Which of the following is true:

1) You're scum.
2) I'm crazy.
3) Both

Yes? Cabd forming a town block with himself in the center early game doesn't exactly seem like something that's unlikely to be coming from Cabd-scum. Why do you disagree?

:/

1. Ffery. Let's make the same deal that F-16 and I made, minus the suspecting part.

These deals are just really, really odd.

It's three of the stronger slots in the game trying to posture around each other for... reasons...

Only real town motivation I can see behind it is to prevent paranoia from ripping the town apart at the seams, which can happen very easily in a game like this.

I still think BRO deserves caution, but his "meh I fucking suck at large games" seemed a lot more honest than any BROscum play that I've seen. It's more about what he's not doing than what he is doing!

I don't like how you're hiding behind a single comment to justify reading me, then throwing out some high-level "What he's not doing indicates he's town" reasoning without substantiating what those markers are. It makes it look like you're setting up for a potential "gotcha" moment on me that people'll trust because of your authority/experience with me.

improvements in her play lately that suggest her town game is getting more obvtown early.

Evidence?

Firstly, Nacho in Buzzword went up against Orc because your slot (squared) did. He immediately dropped suspicion on Orc once he returned from a brief period of inactivity – the scum motivation clearly being he didn’t want to go against you. Here on the other hand, you indicated that Brian suspicion is unjustified – or at least, that is the implicit vibe I received from you. Tammy opposed the push as well. Assuming she is town, Nacho as scum would be pushing a player that could alienate his biggest threats – this is something I haven’t seen a parallel with in Buzzword. Let’s say he wants to push the Brian lynch, who will help him? Not you, Tammy, or even Cephrir who despite saying that Brian was trying too hard now has a townread on him. Probably not Pitoli who he is voting. Perhaps he expected me to help but I made it clear I am not sure either way about Brian. So, I am not seeing the same parallel w.r.t Brian and Orc. What did I miss?

This is how you make an argument, people.

Tammy’s town, don’t want to substantiate why because ~reasons~

Although I don’t get where these pitoli reads are coming from because by page 18 I’ve forgotten that she’s even posted. I guess that’s implicitly bad, but still…

How about we just lynch you now and get the game over with?

That would bring the “BRO getting mislynched” statistic in conflict with the “BRO always wins with Nacho” statistic. It’s better to let scum NK me, because then I’m conftown AND the “BRO almost always wins when not mislynched” stat comes into play.


^_^

Stopped quoting shit because MS hates me, but I’m hard townreading Tammy after the fight. Also townreading Brian, but not as strongly.

Gut-feeling off about Ceph, but I’m gonna table that for a bit. Also disconcerted by the lack of presence from a handful of players (gutbunny, Desp, Sak, Domo, GM, pit). Other than that…

VOTE: Casso

We have a date, Nacho. I apologize for not being super-available for the next 24 hours.

for context, this is his ISO from that game, there are some relevant early game posts before said catchup, and MC Maraca had crumbed mason. keeping all this in mind, his efforts here to scum hunt are, quite blatantly, obvious - you can tell exactly what he's going for pressuring the ppl who didn't see the mason crumb, and his questions (or rather the one question he asked) here are relevant and actually designed to extract information from players. there are some 1-liners and friendly posts, but it is very well mixed with scumhunting - it's basically night and day from what he's doing here

---

tl;dr:

1. a huge lack of scumhunting compared to setup spec, weak lines of questioning that don't actually lead anywhere, or anything else;
2. consistent attempts to appeal to other players;
3. the way he's handling the shos/Skitty push;
4. a large amount of general specious argumentation;
5. the fact he's demonstrated a tendency to play differently than this as town.

i really don't see where the town reads on BRO are coming from. i'd like someone who disagrees to tell me what i'm missing here, save for possibly the trajectory on ooba/Skitty.

p-edit: haven't read recent posts

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

i will fucking dayvig the next person to vote Skitty

i am 100% fucking serious about this.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

vote: BRO

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

i would bet cash money there are 3-4 scum on the Skitty wagon. incidentally, GGG and (if you agree with me on BRO) BRO are both on there.

will prob go back and look at how the wagon happened sometime later

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Why is skitty town pie?

read harder. ns's play this game has actually been pretty town. and i'd expect you would know this, if you stepped back and stopped pushing him for so much as 2 seconds.

i'm more interested in hearing about why you think they're scum since i'm skimming through your ISO and it's a bit hard to follow. the main reason i could find was the thing about "normal game", which i'm pretty sure was just him trolling the fuck out of the thread.

how about lynching BRO with me instead?

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

think about

1. if NS's play this game makes any sense at all from a scum POV. you claim he wanted to claim survivor in order to coast, but if that was his goal, there are a fuckton of better things he could claim (e.g. hated claim seems to be the gold standard for scum coasting claims recently, see marquis in dangan ronpa 2). claiming survivor, in fact, would draw him even _more_ negative attention than not doing so, especially given he's bound to get PL'ed for it later. it doesn't actually make any sense that he would claim survivor as scum here, and you should really know this
2. what NS *actually* has to gain by supposedly lying about this being a normal game as scum here. hint: nothing, which is why insinuating he'd lie about it is fucking dumb

those are the only 2 reasons i can find for you thinking he's scum, and the composition of the wagon makes me think it's a shit wagon. if there's more, let me know, but i think you're really on the wrong track here (or you're just scum). i'm still interested in why you aren't voting BRO with me

p-edit: @Nacho

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

You are proposing that skitty fake claimed survivor as a townie to ????

lol. you are scum, aren't you

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

just letting you all know now, if I want to WK someone, you will not succeed at lynching them

you all should just give up

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

tbh im still not fully 100% on the ns part of the hydra being read as scum but i was seriously let down by caled's posts and thats why im not telling ms to get off skitty

tbh i think you had your expectations set way too high re: caled. from what i've observed, it is indeed true that she generally does fuck all in hydras, and it's obvious she hasn't ~really~ got into the game yet, so i'm not faulting her for it

anyway, tell MS when he gets back he owes me about 3 or 4 sheeps

That makes you sound so town

if this is directed towards me, sheep me.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I'm also not nacho.

no offense, but i'd rather talk to nacho about this than you since i doubt you're actually listening to anything i'm saying. put him back on the line.

It makes complete sense. The fact he didn't think of claiming something better doesn't change the fact the scum motivation is there.

and this logic is complete shit and the reason i don't think you're actually listening to me

i've also been over the 2nd point already.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

idk man i think the coming in and blanket attacking the people on her wagon is bad
especially when you consider that apparently all that has been said between her and ns is just requests to post in the game

the absence of attempts to find scum from caled doesnt jive well at all, and the only thing really in reference to that behaviour that she did was a shitty blurb about goat which is pretty much worth nothing at this point

as i said, i really doubt caled is engaged with the game at this point. i would expect both of these behaviors from a hydra partner who isn't engaged with the game, especially someone like caled who has a history of not being engaged in hydras.

i might be able to get behind the idea of waiting for another post from caled really to see how she acts, i'll talk to ms about it

thank you <3

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

where does this come from?

the post i quoted

i point out what you're pushing him for doesn't make much sense as scum. you handwave it away instead of explaining why what i said is wrong.

so, yeah. /shrug

and this logic is complete shit

no it isn't. Your own logic is the one that is backwards. ns did something with clear scum motivation without thinking about it much and you're now trying to argue that it was too scummy to be scum.

and this is another example of why i don't think you're listening to me

i pointed out why there *isn't* actually scum motivation in ns's survivor claim (claiming survivor would give him *more* negative attention than not doing so), and you are conveniently ignoring that. so yeah

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

like, your assumption that ns "didn't think about it much" relies on him basically being complete shit at this game, which (spoiler) he's not. this logic is why i think your push is fucking awful and why you should step back and actually think about it for a few seconds.

p-edit: @Wis

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

@pie
Scum motivation in claiming survivor = coasting.
Town motivation in claiming survivor = ?

Also mind explaining why you think he is town instead of just thinking he is honest about being survivor?

lol

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

you should really just give up

bc the simple fact of the matter is, for each post you make pushing *insert shit reason here* for ns being scum, i'll continue to make at least 2 to counter it

the easiest way to just stop is to just accept it and move on

p-edit: @Wis

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

and yes, i did answer. you just aren't reading the game.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

So counter it, pie, I'm waiting. Show me the town motivation. So far all you've said has been "it was too scummy to be scum".

that is not what i said at all. if you had been reading my posts, you would know this.

your excuse about "lol no town motivation" is, and always has been, bullshit. the truth is, there is no scum motivation in the way NS handled this (and you can claim "lol coasting" all you want; again, if you had actually been read my posts instead of tunneling, you'd see that i did indeed give a response to that), and whether you think there is town motivation or not does not change that. if i wasn't aware you are notorious for tunneling, i would consider this as a scum tell for the same reason i'm considering BRO's coaching argument as a scum tell.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

wis, what you are doing is accomplishing nothing besides blowing the thread up in pages

so either accept ns isn't getting lynched, or shut up

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I read, pie. You argued he could have claimed something else if he wanted to coast. That's not a valid point, it's just reaching for a reason to not scumread him.

.............

You have yet to explain why you think he is town and not survivor.

.............

i am actually speechless.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

kk. call me back when Nacho gets back

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

The terrifying part is that I actually think Pie is town

The MORE terrifying part is that Skitty thinks he's being protown!

why is it terrifying?

if you're really that sure i'm wrong, i'm taking bets

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

anyway, I was gonna post this but then this entire shitstorm happened

my problem with adorkable is mostly bc if you actually read their posts, I don't see what they're aiming to accomplish in any of them. it's just a bunch of stuff.

most of the stuff in 316 comes across extremely wishy washy. 325 contains nothing but not-serious comments, calling BRO out for spamposting, and a bunch of surface-level observations that don't lead anywhere. 535 the main problem here (courtesy of Kagami) is that their reasoning for voting GGG isn't ~really~ why GGG is scummy. 838 comes across even more wishy washy; I hate the way they hedged on the Skitty lynch (which in my eyes looks even worse now. but hey, you don't have to agree with me on Skitty to agree this is bad) and their focus on the dayvig comes off really unnatural and like scum reaching for something to comment about

on a body of work level, I'm not really seeing how any of this connects to each other, and I don't really see a town thought process in the way they're forming reads here. as I said, it just feels like a bunch of stuff. I'm not sure how to better describe it -.-

so those are my other thoughts. anyway, the last like 3 pages have all consisted of me/ns/Wis/dramonic running around in circles. can we stop now and wait for other people to actually get here?

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Pie - I'm still only a third into the game so couldn't dig into your case. But I do have a question based on something later. Why do you consider someone thinking someone is coaching a scum tell?

it's not someone thinking someone is coaching per se. it's essentially just specious argumentation. the argument falls apart bc with a shos/Skitty team shos has no reason to yell at Skitty for claiming survivor _after_ Skitty actually claimed, since it wouldn't actually help him any, but he's conveniently ignoring that and instead acting like they're scum bc there's "no town motivation" in shos' statement.

I think it's just as likely shos' comment was just an offhand remark; town don't necessarily do 100% town motivated things all the time, so acting like they do feels misguided at best and completely contrived at worst. I also think his conviction about it is completely misplaced.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

may I know if the previous posts were made by pieguy or kagami?

-pieguyn

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Talk 2 me pie


Let me know you're town

what do you want to talk about?


also it's like everyone in this town is half on the right track with Skitty, half completely wrong :<

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

whatever it is you wanna talk about it'll have to wait like 20 minutes cos I need to get ready for bed first

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I eat dinner first


Are you ready to type another essay pie cause I have an essay question for you

"Where do you get the confidence to WK Skitty despite your recent misgivings and hyper wrong reads in previous games?"

Go

think about

1. if NS's play this game makes any sense at all from a scum POV. you claim he wanted to claim survivor in order to coast, but if that was his goal, there are a fuckton of better things he could claim (e.g. hated claim seems to be the gold standard for scum coasting claims recently, see marquis in dangan ronpa 2). claiming survivor, in fact, would draw him even _more_ negative attention than not doing so, especially given he's bound to get PL'ed for it later. it doesn't actually make any sense that he would claim survivor as scum here, and you should really know this
2. what NS *actually* has to gain by supposedly lying about this being a normal game as scum here. hint: nothing, which is why insinuating he'd lie about it is fucking dumb

those are the only 2 reasons i can find for you thinking he's scum, and the composition of the wagon makes me think it's a shit wagon. if there's more, let me know, but i think you're really on the wrong track here (or you're just scum). i'm still interested in why you aren't voting BRO with me

p-edit: @Nacho

i really don't feel like explaining this again, and this explains it pretty well. you should really just sheep me. i wouldn't fucking do this without being absolutely sure about it, and i am not the only one who holds this opinion

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

ok. what would my scum motivation be for lying about this, given if I was, it would be obvious after a while I don't *actually* have an explanation for it?

that's not even a statement it's possible to lie about, so I don't get how you think WIFOM applies here.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

READ IN BETWEEN THE FUCKING LINES.

it's fucking obvious I want to be deliberately vague about this. that is all I'll say on the matter.

p-edit: @MS

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

The line of thinking that "skitty cannot be scum because scum would not claim survivor" is definitively wifom when it's fleshed out.

oh, you were referring to that

in that case, the above post applies to you too -.-

i am starting to get legitimately pissed off at this game

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

you all are going to feel like fucking idiots when you find out how wrong you are here

that's all I'll fucking say. it feels like no one in this game save me and one other person is capable of seeing beyond the obvious. I'll see you all tomorrow bc I'm too pissed to continue right now.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

one last post bc I just fucking can't.

Perspective, friend. If you were in my shoes, I'm pretty sure you'd be calling for Skitty's head.

this shows that not only do you fail at reading in between the lines, and know nothing about me, but you're naive enough to think I would do this without a fucking solid reason

you seem to be working under the assumption I'm an idiot. the fact that you (or anyone) think I'd do something that outright stupid is a personal insult to me.

the same thing applies to you, MS. sorry if this comes off offensive, but I can't fucking put up with this anymore. :/ anyway, night for real

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Yay.

I didn't make sense for ns to have claimed survivor as scum before his hydra partner appeared, and I fully believe what caled had said re:communication. Following that line of thought leads to another, similar problem, which leads one to start looking for something else. Pie worked it out~

VOTE: GGG

-kagami

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I didn't make sense for ns to have claimed survivor as scum before his hydra partner appeared,

(((still don't really believe this, sorry)))

Why did you move your partner's vote from BRO? I was just glancing through the case now.

Didn't realize he had voted bro. I'm ok with keeping it there, personally I think GGG is more likely, but pie feels pretty strongly about bor.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: broseidon

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Claiming survivor in post 1 as scum without the approval of your hydra partner would be absolutely awful. I have more respect for ns than to think that's possible.

Anyway, that clearly didn't happen.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I also agree that roles should taken with a grain of salt, especially ones that are known to be potentially misleading.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

It's far less bad, because in this case it doesn't really do much to change the game for them. From here out they'll just play as normal.

Claiming survivor as scum is basically bussing your own slot for no reason, and completely ruins the game for your hydra partner.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Do you feel like they're anything less than 95% likely to be town? If not, then there was real value.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

skitty won't be lynched.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Guys, he didn't just claim survivor; he simultaneously laid the groundwork to ensure he could back out. He wasn't in real danger.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

And we haven't claimed anything. Pie was just demanding he be heard re:skitty in a way I disagree with.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Pie:

I feel overall your case on BRO is that he seems to be currying favor instead of actually figuring shit out: you take a lot of quotes and a lot of words to say this, but ultimately this is your point. I don't think BRO is incapable of faking scumhunting as scum: I think BRO is probably in the top 5% of scum players on site and I think faking scumhunting is one of the first skills you learn as scum. I don't think that BRO as scum would play to curry favor to the lower 50% of players in this playerlist (which is what he would be doing as scum in this situation): he gains much more by currying to bigger voices (me, you, Southern Belles off the top of my head) and he sure as hell isn't going to fool any of these people with setup spec and no scumhunting. I also think you bring up decent points to why BRO is playing subpar, but I don't really understand how this equals gotcha scum, if that makes sense.

I'm really not so sure about this.

the thing I always remember about BRO is that what I've seen of his scum play always winds up being hilariously obvious to me, but no one ever lynches him. I've seen him do really brazen and/or obvious things as scum, probably working under the assumption no one will call him on it - the thing I'll always remember is how in NY167 his arguments were *really* obviously manipulative, and despite that bauss was the only one who saw it and he ultimately wasn't able to do anything over it.

for that reason, I don't feel comfortable thinking he's town because his strategy as scum wouldn't be good enough. I'm going to sound like such a huge hypocrite saying this, but it's essentially too scummy to be scum. don't get me wrong I get where you're coming from, but I think about if BRO thinks this kind of strategy that he's using here would actually work as scum, and I always get hung up on the fact that it's worked just fine before and I don't see why it'd be different here :/

the most telling point, imo, is the specious argumentation (which, incidentally, he just did again in his response to my case, given hardly any of it had to do with meta, and even if it did it's essentially him saying I'm calling him scum for the wrong reasons). the point with the coaching was that I don't think any scum would actually coach a partner in the way he's claiming they did; I'm not exactly sure why scum would bother posting something like that when they don't gain any benefit from doing so and they could just as easily not. now, I'm looking at it again and I could potentially see town thinking this is a good argument if I squint ~really~ hard, if they're working under the assumption people do not think about their posts and thus that shos snap reacted to it without a second thought. but the thing is, that's not the only argument I think is manipulative, and he just did it again. I was expecting to see a lot more from him in terms of scum hunting and the the extremely logical arguments I'm usually able to see from him - when I read through Wicked I remember thinking his case was kind of out there and kind of exaggerated but I thought the general ideas behind it were absolutely correct and prob would have followed it if I was in game - and I'm just not seeing it here.

so I'm not sure what to think :/

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

it also doesn't help that he supposedly thought me and Skitty were scum partners. which I thought was another manipulative argument because calling someone scum with the mislynch you want to push is the easiest way to discredit them and get people not to listen to them. while I do try to save my partners if possible, if Skitty was scum here, he would pretty much be a lost cause. and I'd think that would be obvious. it just feels like such an easy and convenient stance and I feel like there is scum motivation there, too. -.-

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

calling someone scum with the mislynch you want to push

*calling someone who is WK'ing the mislynch you want to push scum with them

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

the thing I'll always remember is how in NY167 his arguments were *really* obviously manipulative, and despite that bauss was the only one who saw it and he ultimately wasn't able to do anything over it.

and I'm aware he did this in no small part in this game because you/ffery/orci/AP/him/Cabd/mara all banded together and were hard defending each other the whole game. but the thing is, he's done this in my other scum game with him too where there was no such interplay going on, so I think the idea of it still holds

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

People in this game are WAY too apologetic. I usually witness at least one "I'm smarter than you" argument by this point.

<3

it's generally not normal for me to get emotional and blow up at people in game. and it is my belief that in a situation like that, doing that is basically the most counterproductive thing you can do.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I'm sorry everyone for yesterday. I really just don't know how to say this besides that. I'm sorry for getting pissed off and snapping at all of you and turning the game thread into a huge argument. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

Nacho, I'm sorry for being an ass in general. I thought what I was seeing in NS's play should have been obvious and I was being way too unreasonable. I saw you, Wisdom, MS, and Goat all pushing this without any sign of reconsideration and I felt completely lost bc I had no idea how to argue against all of you at once and I let my emotions take over. please don't think it's your fault, or that you were an idiot or anything.

<3

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

oh and about the way he's currying favor here

if he's scum, he probably was attempting to curry favor with mollie/Southern Belles at the very least with the statement about Wicked, given it was directed to her. so I don't feel very comfortable working under the assumption he's not trying to appeal to the bigger voices in the game. the early town read on you ~might~ be able to be interpreted as that as well if I squint really hard. I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying here, so let me know if I'm misinterpreting smth.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Maybe it's just a difference in experience. I said before my experience at my homesite with people making coaching arguments, so I tend to just ignore them. I'm also a little lenient on people picking up on quirks early game because early game and I've had someone tunnel me twice at my homesite because an offhanded joke during rvs was interpreted as a signal to me that they were my traitor.

oh. I think I completely misread the point of that post .-.

at this point, I mostly just want people to explain and/or reevaluate their town reads on him, since I really really really don't get why people are seeing his play this game as town play. there doesn't seem to be any point in lynching him right now when other wagons are more viable unless a bunch of people suddenly start agreeing with me

it feels like a lot of this is the fact I tend to not give anyone any grace time when it comes to issues like this (which I admit when I'm wrong can have disastrous effects when someone _is_ legitimately pissed off) and everyone else is being way more lenient towards him for *insert reason I don't understand here*, which freaks me the fuck out.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

1) piegami's case on me continues to be bad, as explained by multiple other people.

lol

I would like to know why anyone thinks the overdefensive attitude in this post comes from a town player

(this isn't strictly true, either, given the only person who actually took the case apart so far afaict is Nacho, and he said he didn't _really_ think the case was bad, but regardless. Om seems to be onto it)

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

btw if Nacho is around I still wanna know what he thinks about my response to him from before.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I guess you want me to just ignore your case so you can get me mislynched, though.

I'll take a look at it. which will have to wait until sometime later bc I leave for the airport in like 20 minutes

I don't understand what you mean at all when you say there are "other ways to determine his alignment", unless you were basically referring to this.

also, as it stands, I'd be fine with a TD lynch. idk what Kagami thinks yet but I don't have any degree of townread on him. (that, and BRO is defending him \o\)

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

And calling me "overdefensive" when I addressed your case in pretty much the minimal way possible...

lol

you're either missing or intentionally misrep'ing the point. there is basically no *real* heat on you. you have like 1 vote and it's me. I made my case, no one sans Nacho picked up on it. but that somehow isn't enough for you; you have to continue to make sure everyone in the game knows that not only is my case bad, but that everyone else in the game thinks my case is bad too (which still isn't strictly true). that is overdefensive and reads like you want to be 100% sure to shut down any attempt at pressuring you before it starts.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I want pie to get back to me on this, but I'm fairly confident AA9 is not scum.

2) ... I think I see what's going on, though.

Can I ask you to confirm this? (Binary y/n, you'd know with certainty if you see what skitty's gameplan is).

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

ninja'd

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

My current probably not scum list looks like this:

1. The Goat
4. dramonic
8. mental somnic (Metal Sonic + Om of the Nom)
9. ArcAngel9
10. ZZZX
12. Southern Belles (pirate mollie + Tammy)
13. Skitty (caledfwitch + notscience)
14. Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai (Kagami + pieguyn)
15. droog
17. The Will of Heaven (Nachomamma8 + Wisdom)
18. Bulbazak
19. ooba
23. Major Minor - survivor, not town.
24. shos

Some of those are lower probability than others. The Goat being town is somewhat dependent on speculation. I think Droog and sonic are likely co-aligned, and I'm putting that alignment as town.

-kagami

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Why is DN town? I don't remember anything that struck me as alignment indicative there.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I think I said it earlier, but I thought his stance on how to treat survivors was a more objectionable than I'd expect scum to take.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I think I said it earlier, but I thought his stance on how to treat survivors was a more objectionable than I'd expect scum to take.

This would probably be overruled by other factors, but I also have a prior of dramonic not being terribly engaged as town.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I don't really have my own opinion on AA9, but I see why people are finding her posts town, and I'm inclined to agree.

I don't like TD or dramonic's recent posts at all.

still haven't checked graveyard shift mafia. this should come tonight

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

The thing is, I agree with your premise completely (BRO-scum gets away with a lot of bullshit as scum that's hilariously obvious to a lot of players). I disagree that his play here is anything like play in his main scumgames like IN and 167: in those games, he was very aggressive and loud and sort of spewed bullshit in a constant scream ala AP in Tales of You. In this game, the significant points that you rag on (his shos coaching argument & him calling you buddies with notscience) are nothing at all the same in magnitude or volume to the scummy bullshit he's gotten away with in other games. I still think the coaching shos point was a decent one: it was a strange interaction for town to have with the claimed survivor, and it's not really too far out of the realm of possibility to interpret it as distinctly not that.

there are definitely more arguments I dislike than just those

e.g. his reaction to me. you saw it, you know it was bad, this is why. most of his responses directed towards me have been disingenuous in one way or another, and while I agree this is not as flagrant as his other scum games, that does not change the fact that he is disingenuous about it. one of the points I still hate is the way he called "misrep" when I started pushing him, when it wasn't a misrep at all and I have no idea how he even gets misrep from what I said. he also continues to push my case was a meta case (when it's not, it's a motivation-based case; the only time I even brought up meta was at the end to show that he can and has done better than this as town, so I *again* don't know how he even comes up with that) and then that it's invalid because "I ignored xxx aspect of his meta" (which even if everything up to that point was correct, is an actual caught-for-the-wrong-reasons tell).

I guess what I'm saying is, specious arguments are specious regardless of how flagrant they are about it. and the thing is, it's basically every argument he's actually pushed this game in some way or another, even if none of them by themselves are particularly egregious.

sorry if I wasn't clear enough, I can see how this wouldn't be apparent from what I said before. that was iirc the last instance of this. if I'm missing your point, let me know

And I guess I don't agree with the "it worked in the past, why wouldn't he do it here?" argument because attacking you as a scumbuddy doesn't really make sense for BRO-scum at all: you're a player who is extremely town when he engages, thus attacking you is more fuel for your fire and more opportunities for people to disagree with what he's doing and call him out on it.

first off, it happens that the last time he was scum against me and I pushed him, he did... literally this and got away with it. which is probably exactly *because* no one ever calls him out for anything despite how scummy he might be.

anyway, the essence of what you're saying (correct me if I'm misinterpreting this) is that he wouldn't push me because he doesn't think he'd be able to and get away with it. I feel very uncomfortable with that. I really don't see why anyone would actually think that, and I think doing so is a huge overestimation of my abilities - the current game state is proof that I'm not able to convince anyone over this. and there is scum motivation in attacking me (discrediting me re: the scum mislynch of the day, and to some extent himself, which is consistent with the way he claimed misrep out of nowhere), so I just don't get why this is a strong enough reason to make it not make sense. I'd really like if you could go into more detail about why you think this.


sorry if this comes off arrogant or anything. I don't intend it that way at all, I'm just not seeing it yet :/ and I'm very grateful you're willing to spend so much time on this with me, I know it's probably a huge inconvenience considering you don't seem to have much up time for this game.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

will read other things in detail later tonight; have to go atm

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

hi Tammy <3
there's really only a few things I want to talk about. mostly with his first catchup. I'm wondering what you're seeing there bc while there are a few reads in his first catchup, there wasn't much of a focus on scum hunting at all. it was like 1 post about scum hunting and the rest was all setup stuff, and he didn't go into much detail about his other town read (TWOH). I'd like if you could point me towards what you're seeing bc I haven't been able to see it yet.

with the misrep, I'm not sure if I got my point across right (and sorry if I'm misinterpreting your point here, let me know if I am). that exchange from BRO and me basically went like this:

BRO: "this is gonna be like Mala all over again", aka affirming his case on Mala was good.
me: "BRO's case on Mala was good"
BRO: "^ misrep bc no one else thought my case on Mala was good."

now, I see what you're saying about how no one listened to him, but that wasn't what I said to him. what I was saying was that in a vacuum his Mala case was more structurally sound than his shos case in this game; it didn't have anything to do with how it was received, so I have no idea what the thought process behind this really was.

I'm seeing what you're getting at with the rest of your points besides those. at this point, I'm taking you/Nacho's reads into account, but the one thing I absolutely haven't been able to get past no matter how hard I look is the general amount of specious arguments - which, even if I ignore the one about shos, there's still a lot of. it's even worse when you factor in the complete lack of legitimate arguments (and I don't count the shos one for this, since even if the conclusion was ok the actual argument itself was structurally invalid). I still haven't read graveyard shift (it should come after this post!) and I'm hoping that'll give me some insight into his general lack of doing anything this game.

what are your thoughts on 1520? Kagami thinks his focus on TD feels extremely narrow; he claims the wagon on TD makes no sense, but doesn't put up a complaint with any of the people on the wagon or divine a sensible explanation for it. I don't like it for basically the same reason, and also bc the logic behind it ~again~ isn't very good - it's entirely bc of TD doing things that match one town game, with no attempt to divine motivation for any of it. on top of that there's absolutely no interest in all the meta stuff everyone else is bringing up that points to TD being scum.

I'll answer your previous question in a separate post bc this is getting really long.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Pie - I'm getting ready to read your bro stuff and comment but when you come back will you tell me why you guys have ooba, bulbazack and zzzz as town?

we liked ooba's early push on GGG. most of the reads we developed early came from the scum read we had on GGG at that point. I also liked the way ooba was calling attention to the Skitty wagon being scum driven bc I agree with him there and it'd be counterproductive for scum to call attention to their own wagon. I *think* I also liked the way he stayed off Skitty instead of taking advantage of them (which further backs up the procession into thinking it was scum driven).

Bulb was a really early read that we're currently reconsidering. it was based entirely off his early GGG push ._.

we liked ZZZX mostly for the way he came out and said he had a reason for scum having day talk and then softclaimed. I also liked the "if he lives past D1 he lives the entire game" re: UT bc it looked really worried and paranoid in a way I'm used to feeling as town.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

You don't have proof. You have opinions, perceptions, meta, gut reads perhaps, but you don't have proof.
I thought you might actually be onto something even though your ISO looks like the pilot of a cheap sitcom, but

you're just talking out of your ass some more aren't you?

@adorkable. The spam posting is terrible, the vote on me is terrible, and our original interaction was terrible, though to be fair I was only reading him as scum for the middle bit originally.

@Mentalsomnic, you sir, may take your “lack of reason” and shove it up your ass. I think the claim is fake, I think skitties posting since then has been fake, I’m not buying this reaction test BS. This is a caught scum trying to backpeddle, hard, and it needs lynched.

@Everyone, I'd have loved to see an arc angel lynch, but no one but me can see that, and I see the way the wind is turning. Johou threatened his scary fakedayvig, ya'll got cold feet, and now nachodisdumb has provided an alternative wagon for you to sheep on. Congratu-fuckin-lations. I'm going to eat this "bullet" now so that you idiots can get back to lynching actual scum if you're capable of remembering that's what skitty is.

VOTE: skitty

So, just for reference, when skitty flips scum we are speedlynching johou for that BS fake dayvig, right?

^ i don't like any of these posts. (bolded mine)

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

actually I'll read graveyard shift tomorrow bc I'm tired as hell right now, but one question I had immediately, @mollie: at what point in the game was BRO being apathetic? I wasn't able to pick up on where, although I admit I only looked for like 5 minutes.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

did I really just read 7 fucking pages of nothing but Wis and MS arguing

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

@ooba, you win a <3.

@pirate mollie:

actually I'll read graveyard shift tomorrow bc I'm tired as hell right now, but one question I had immediately,

@mollie: at what point in the game was BRO being apathetic? I wasn't able to pick up on where, although I admit I only looked for like 5 minutes

.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

-.- I'm asking that bc I very briefly looked through that game and it looked like he was generally doing a lot more than he was in this game. he didn't post that much, but from what I saw (and I haven't done a proper check yet, but this is generally what I thought skimming through his ISO) what he did do was still very relevant and you can tell he was trying to figure shit out. so I'm not sure what mollie is referring to when she says he was apathetic that game

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

er

I literally just said I hadn't taken a proper look at the game yet and that it was a quick observation I got from just glancing at it. I want to know exactly what parallels you're seeing in between this game and that game so that I know what to look for when I do sit down and check it properly. -.-

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

er

I literally just said I hadn't taken a proper look at the game yet and that it was a quick observation I got from just glancing at it. I want to know exactly what parallels you're seeing in between this game and that game so that I know what to look for when I do sit down and check it properly. -.-

cos I can't feel bro at all inside my head. and what I am saying is that is not a scumtell cos he was the freaking IC in that game and I didn't feel him there either. capisce?

the thing is, I agree with this. I have never said, nor do I think, that him being apathetic is more likely to come from scum. plus, I was _in_ a game where he was town and came across as very apathetic (he actually wasn't, but it def looked like he was).

what I don't like is what he is actually doing while he is here. he's been here, and somewhat engaged, but I haven't liked most of what he's actually did. he is posting, but there is almost no _actual_ scum hunting in his posts.

this, in my eyes, is different from him being apathetic. so I want you to help me look through this and point to where you noticed a lack of scum hunting or relevant content from him in that game; cos I was able to find a bunch of points where he made good observations after glancing at it for so much as 5 minutes, even if he was disengaged with the game, and in the game I had where he was apathetic, he still made good observations there, too, despite not being a presence.

let me know if I'm misinterpreting smth since I'm kind of bad at explaining this

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I don't think you are misinterpreting and I think I get what you are saying. I didn't feel like he did any meaningful scumhunting in graveyard but I am coming from a position of feeling mostly alone in that game and it took mastina/ap lynch for people to finally listen. he was mislynched in wicked too (bert!) and I do not think he is that easy of a player that you can surface meta cos that is what it feels like you are doing. I am probs speaking from my own private idaho here but that is just my opinion. he isn't quite in thorella/majiffy/mastina/sometimes nacho/kuribo/dgb/ap range but he is pretty close

.-. you're the one who asked me to look at that game. I'm not trying to read him via meta - I wanted to check through that game to see if I was trying to read him based on smth play style related as opposed to indicative, which you were saying it was - and I haven't yet seen anything that indicates I am nor have I picked up on the parallels you're saying are there.

once I fully read through the game I should have a better idea of if and how what I think I saw in that game is different than what I'm seeing here.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

post

IAWTP. I really didn't like the way Bulba was pushing AA9 at all; that was one of the things I wanted to read more into but didn't bc no time/sorting out the BRO read, and the reasoning here makes a shitton of sense to me.

@Nacho: I'll get back to you on BRO really soon, but one thing I can point out really quick, this was the game I was referring to: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=35988 I could def sheep you onto Bulba.

there's a lot of stuff addressed towards me or that I otherwise wanna respond to, which I'll address right after this.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I agree that it was bad, I disagree that it was disingenuous. I think BRO's responses tend to look fake when he starts picking apart the cases on him in painstaking detail and ignores the cases at large. I think his responses start to look fake when he starts trending towards discrediting instead of doing anything else when responding: I don't think that's happened here.

I think we disagree here.

most of the logic behind anything BRO said in response to me is structurally incorrect (which I think we agree on). and I think most town players (especially an ultra-logical one like him - this is not meta, but I do think it more strongly applies to him for this reason) would realize this and be able to do better. instead we get this weak-ass "johou is scum" for apparently pushing a bad meta case, despite it not being meta and which he continues to push despite being told it wasn't meta. I think this fits way more in line with scum needing an easy way out of pressure as opposed to any kind of town behavior I can think of.

generally, when someone consistently pushes arguments that have obvious holes in them, I think it's a pretty good sign that said arguments are not coming from a town place; I think it's the case because it shows they're not thinking about the game state enough to make any correct arguments even after several attempts, and said arguments are generally designed for the express purpose of pushing something wrong while having to *look* believable.

What he called misrep (from what I remember, I might actually be fucking this up) was your perceived strength of the Mala case, which I thought was a fair enough point. When BRO was lynched day 1 from a fake soft-CC, people generally discounted literally everything he said because they thought his case was so shallow which was something he brought up and demonstrates how some people approach the cases he makes. You can say you understood his case in that game and would have followed it if you were in that game, but it's much more compelling evidence if you were in a game with BRO and defending him after he made one of his town specious arguments.

I think BRO's separation from "strength of analysis" and "strength of persuasion" illustrates this well, except everyone has it backwards. I wasn't referring to the combination of both. when I mentioned the Mala case, I was referring explicitly to the strength of analysis - which everyone might have thought was bad, but the point was he continues to believe it was good, and that is what I was saying

as I said to Tammy, it basically went like this:

BRO: "this is gonna be like Mala all over again", aka affirming his case on Mala was good.
me: "BRO's case on Mala was good"
BRO: "^ misrep bc no one else thought my case on Mala was good."

I really have no idea how to explain _why_ the argument itself was structurally correct, but I think it was. as someone who generally plays very logically, I can see why he picked up on the things he picked up on (even though I think some parts were a bit exaggerated, but even when that happened I thought the general idea of it was good), I can see the reasoning he used, and I could follow the structure behind it

I think it's a well-documented fact that you generally are harder on yourself than you should be. I also know that Muffin, when he was around (god rest his soul), hated dealing with you as scum. I know how much I hate dealing with you as scum (a lot), and I know how much Mastin respects you as a player quite a bit. I know you would definitely be on BRO's threat list if he were scum this game, and I'd think it'd dramatically affect how he handled a case by you on him because he'd know you wouldn't let him escape unless he really, really worked for it. I don't think his response to you looks like he's been threatened by it at all.

even if this is true, I still think that "xxx is too strong of a player; yyy wouldn't push them if they were scum" is generally a weak assumption to make and on top of that it's never held up for me in practice. for a (somewhat weak) example of this, in playing cards mafia I thought Desp was lining me up to be the LYLO mislynch bc his case on me was really obviously bullshit, and then at some point I started second guessing it thinking that it didn't actually make sense that he would try to get me lynched in LYLO for essentially this reason, which ofc was wrong.

Skitty isn't the mislynch of the day any longer, and I think that was probably obvious enough to the scumteam when I backed off. BRO continues to attack you, he continues to WK a lot of the other big scumspects of the day (TD comes to mind), which means his scum motivation in doing what he's doing now is... trying to make something that used to be viable but isn't going to happen happen and poking a dragon for no good reason?

I don't particularly think he's pushing an agenda by continuing to push me short of having smth to do and/or trying to look town. I'm just saying there was scum motivation in attacking me at the time he did.

What are the other ones you're referring to?

most of his responses to me, + more recently, the way he's WK'ing the TD wagon. as I said to Tammy before, both me and Kagami feel his focus re: TD is overly narrow.

his recent response to me was also bad. he's pushing that I'm pulling a mastin in that I keep repeating smth that's not true in order to get people to accept it as fact, when what I'm saying is true, and he should really be aware of this. nor does he explain _why_ what I said isn't true. (that argument seems to describe what he's doing really well, actually)

---

overall I think the main point of contention here is if you actually believe BRO's arguments this game or not. where I'm currently at is, I think I was probably on the wrong track/unreasonable with some of the things I initially pointed out; however, the thing I still can't get over is that most of the arguments he's actually pushed this game at all have been structurally correct. I can get why the Skitty push would come from town (in fact from the bit of graveyard shift I've read so far he pushed a coaching argument in a very similar way to that), but the logic behind the argument itself was still wrong and it's not a particularly hard thing for scum to pick on; I really don't see the responses re: me/WK'ing of TD being very likely to come from town unless I squint really hard. moreover, I still haven't seen what I wanted to see from him on that front in terms of any kind of thoughtful push that shows he's trying to figure out the game - most of what he's doing has continued to not be particularly relevant or town motivated

I guess what I'm saying is I was just expecting to see a lot more from him in terms of relevant scum hunting, or... anything that was logically correct at all, and I haven't seen it yet :/

the other thing I wanted to point out (although I haven't looked much into this) is that BRO and Bulba are both defending each other. I notice you disagreed with BRO's town read on Bulba from earlier. so I would also look at BRO if Bulba does flip scum here

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Holy fucking shit it's meta.

If you were straight up saying, "He's making shallow arguments, therefore he's scum," it wouldn't be meta. There'd be other problems with it (other players who are far more shallow, etc), but it wouldn't be meta.

But the crux of your argument is, "his arguments are shallow and

that's what I've seen BRO-scum do before

." The fact of the matter is that you've brought in my gameplay from multiple other games,

which is meta.

Sure, it's not a "omg he has x tell" meta case, but it's still meta because you're comparing my gameplay here to other games.

er.... lol?

you called my case "meta" (1091) ever since I first posted my case (936). there is nothing in the case that relates to meta, save for the end where I point out you can do a _lot_ better than this as town - and that was in no way the "crux" of my case. everything else was based on motivation and is valid even without comparing it to anything.

now, after I posted that and started talking with Nacho, Tammy, and mollie about it, we started talking about meta. Nacho brought up why what I was claiming you were doing wouldn't work, for reasons based around past games; mollie and Tammy did the same thing. so yeah, if someone's going to push a meta-based argument, I'll counter it using what I know of your meta. and yes, I've seen you use shallow arguments as scum before - but that does not change the fact that making shallow arguments is scummy regardless of who is doing it, which is the point I was making and why you bringing up "meta" in response to the case is bullshit

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

What don't you like?

the last line in the first (dramonic) post was a type of cheeky taunt that I hardly ever actually see town do. it's a lot more typical of scum who are looking for an easy way to make someone look worse than them

the narrative TD is pushing with those 2 posts is that my "scary fake dayvig" caused everyone to jump off Skitty. what the actual fuck? sure, I was WK'ing Skitty really hard, but the "scary fake dayvig" I think is about 0% of the reason everyone jumped off of them, and he doesn't focus on any of the actual effort me or Nacho did to get votes off them. it looks more like scum coming up with an easy reason to paint someone (me) as scum as opposed to town who is legitimately forming reads.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

It actually is.

Because what you posted about me could have been said for literally anyone else sans like 5 players.

Like, other than not liking the specifics of my push, all of your points about shallowness, etc, apply to

literally this entire game

Including your scumbuddy Shos

lol

most of the players in this game who I'm town reading have had at least something they've done that shows they are actually giving a shit and thinking about the game. e.g. with the ooba read, it was his stance on the Skitty wagon and the progression on the Skitty read up to that point.

there has been no such thing with you, as I've said multiple times, which is one part of the reason I'm scum reading you. you've been doing stuff, but you haven't done anything that has been exceptionally thoughtful. and sure, people push specious arguments, but your content has been consistently specious, as opposed to other people who have had bad arguments that do not appear to be scum motivated, or bad arguments that do not come across as superficially correct in any way

(if you want meta, I'm wondering why you haven't focused more on the Skitty and TD wagons or factored it into your reads. you could probably have done some kind of analysis on the Skitty wagon now that he's basically as conftown as an IC, but nothing at all - which fits with the idea of it being a scum driven wagon - and you claim the TD wagon was bad but haven't put any effort into figuring out _why_ it was bad or _who_ the scum on the wagon were. but anyway)

there is, of course, some profiling here based on a general idea of what I'd expect based on skill level, which I guess you could call meta on a _very_ surface level. I find it very difficult to believe this is what you were actually referring to when you first called my case meta. you said this:

Also NS not bringing up that Pie/Kagami's point about Wicked mafia relative to this game being straight up wrong (especially because NS adamantly refused to believe my case in that game, so he should understand 100% what I'm saying here) further supports the idea that they're buddies.

Also, the tl;dr response to the case against me is, "You used a meta case on me while cherry picking what aspects of my meta you're going to use." The failures to bring into account misdirection, game flow manipulation, and intentionality in particular indicate either at best a lack of familiarity with my meta and at worst an intentional manipulation of data. I can go into more detail when I'm not getting ready for work.

which indicates the "meta" I'm using is specific to you. soooooooo, yeah

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Outside of #3, none of these points matter without #5.

yep you're scum

this is not the first logical step in my argument and you know it.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Outside of #3, none of these points matter without #5.

^^^ to expand on that, that was a DELIBERATE misrep of my case on him.

my case on him was exactly what I said. the first 4 points were

all based on motivation. they had nothing to do with meta. the meta only served to further back up what I was saying.

however, by saying all my points only mattered bc of the meta, he twisted the logic around to fit his overgeneralized argument that my case is a meta case. this is highly disingenuous and likely scum.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

mollie if you want to call wischo town without a doubt then help me see that through my own eyes
because i cant blindy trust other players who claim to read people 100%
thats why im disagreeing with arc right now

do wanna list of games so you can see for yourself or do you want me to talk you through it?

I can say all of this after mislynching him once in too many heads and vigging him in playing cards. he can't fake emotion it is his achilles heel, and every1 always misses it. you people are going to spend your time with wis and you will like it cos 1 thing I can say about wis is he DOES get around to obtaining results. give that slot space.

IAWTP. while I don't think Nacho is entirely incapable of faking emotion - he accomplished it in tales of you - that was accompanied by a huge drop in general productivity, namely being able to do anything besides deathtunneling mastin. and he's definitely hit a lot of the town Nacho notes I generally would expect from him so far. I'd like to know why ppl who are scumreading TWOH are doing so.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

So the thing about BRO's argument against you and BRO's argument in general is that I find BRO tends to be very ultra-logical and generally his analysis makes sense, but it doesn't make sense to me and looks like a shitty argument until he communicates it in a way that I understand because the way he packages and presents his arguments usually doesn't present his intent too well. Example: until Post #2118, I literally didn't understand what BRO was going on in pushing you at all. But pushing you as scum because you were trying to puff up and draw aggro to protect weaker scumbuddies: that makes sense to me and shows that his arguments are deeper than I initially take them for. I thought his case in Wicked was hilariously bad until the day started progressing and more hints of how he got to where he ended up dropped in thread. I thought his shos case sucks on a surface level but there are good points behind it that actually make shos a scumsuspect of mine. I do strongly disagree with the bolded, though: I don't think that the best scumhunting BRO-scum can come up with is a half-assed case on you or even a push on you in general. This is highly likely to be multiball or cultiball or something like that thanks to the nature of bastard games and UT's flip, thus BRO-scum definitely has other avenues and other people to push as scum and probably type up a half-convincing case on: all of the lynchbait candidates in this game aren't scum and I'm sure BRO-scum could bullshit a push on literally any of them. So if you think the motivation of BRO-scum in pushing you is simply because he couldn't find anything better, I strongly disagree. If you think it's because he needed to discredit you after your attack on him, that makes a considerably larger amount of sense but I wonder what his long game is: is he looking to mislynch you? Why? Why doesn't he just defend from you today and nightkill you when he gets the chance?

I agree trying to discredit me makes more sense and that's what I meant by an easy way out of pressure (as opposed to responding to it in terms of motivation). long game would probably be to continue to stop my push from going anywhere until either sometime in midgame when I get NK'ed or hoping I eventually back off him sometime down the road; the former is what he did in AOT where he was scum and I pushed him.

btw, if you want another parallel to AOT, he literally pushed that exact same mastin mist argument on me in that game that he's pushing here. I don't think it means anything re: alignment, but it did make me laugh a bit

...or that he's going to push a case that no one's going to listen to and will ultimately both be right and end with his death. It doesn't necessarily mean his case on Mala was good.

I'm fairly sure that if you ask him if his analysis from that game was correct, he'll claim it was.

what I'm saying is, BRO thinks that in terms of strength of analysis without regard to how many people listened to him, his analysis on Mala was good. I think the same thing. yet when I say as much, he calls "lol misrep bc no one else listened to me". that is not a natural progression of thought - I suppose it's possible that he misread my post considering basically everyone else misread it - but I really doubt it considering all the bullshit he got for the read in that game. the logical conclusion here is that I'm referring to the strength of his analysis, not that I was referring to how many people listened to him _and_ that I misrep'ed/misinterpreted it on top of that, and the way he calls misrep is imo typical of scum trying to discredit someone.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I currently want to vote Bulba. we'll vote there depending on what Kagami thinks when she's not busy.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

can anyone please
give me a solid reason
for why we would defend bulba so hard without a case if he was scum
seriously
can one of you fuckers just listen to us i swear to god

ask MS if this is the same as before, only reversed. ask this verbatim

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

@Metal Sonic:

can anyone please
give me a solid reason
for why we would defend bulba so hard without a case if he was scum
seriously
can one of you fuckers just listen to us i swear to god

ask MS if this is the same as before, only reversed. ask this verbatim

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

ugh.

would you say that you've put me in a position similar to the one you are currently in, recently? simple y/n will suffice.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

:/

you're not missing anything

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I'd like if you could elaborate on your reasoning for Bulba town bc afaict you haven't done so yet and Nacho's case is way stronger than you just saying he's town over and over.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

*what* does Bulba scum look like, and *why* does this Bulba not look like that?

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

>Nacho pushes Bulba for a bad AA9 scumread
>Bulba proceeds to immediately declare AA9 town
>while continuing to push AA9's case was BS

also @MS, Skitty is as conftown as an IC for reasons you're not picking up on and you're being so anti-town by doing this that I almost want to say you're scum for it. I honestly think you'd know better than to spam "lol Bulba is town" constantly without having any reason behind it, except for one possible scenario (which still wouldn't mean anything in terms of Bulba's alignment), which you told me wasn't the case anyway.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

so Bulba:

you keep calling AA9 out for ignoring you, but you're not interested in the fact I ignored your callout from earlier?

also you've been poking at me for a while now, but haven't put me on your scum list nor did you seem suspicious of me in the slightest in said list. why is that? I think you're trying to go with the flow here, considering the 3 people you put instead of me are for the most part reads a lot of ppl would agree on (Skitty, GGG, Esp)

@Tammy: I see your posts and I'll answer right after this

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Did you mean a different post? If I'm interpreting was ELI5 means, he's asking someone to elaborate on the TD case. I'm not good with text speak, so if that's no elaborate then what does it mean?

Also, this is a long time ago, and I don't know if things got better, but this is something I will keep in mind as I catch up.

prob should have worded it differently. I'm curious what you think of the way BRO is WK'ing TD in general. 1520 in particular jumped out at me bc of how outright shallow it was; as I said earlier, there's no effort to divine motivation anywhere at all and on top of that he handwaves basically everything AA9 is doing as OMGUS.

I get what you're saying about the 1st catchup but I don't particularly think there's anything in there that's hard to fake, so I'm not sure what to make of it. where I'm currently at re: him is I still think there's been a lack of anything notably town-motivated or any kind of thoughtful push that indicates he's trying to figure anything out, and I still think that most of the arguments he's pushed so far have been weak - while I agree some of them can come from town, I think that on a body of work level the fact there have been hardly any solid arguments at all is telling

But, I hated his thing about UT being a scum gambit. Even accounting for the fact that I've been scum partners with UT and modded him as scum and couldn't imagine him personally doing a scum gambit like that, I just don't believe that anyone actually believed that was a scum gambit. A jester gambit, sure, but scum? It looked to me like he was going overboard on scum gambit as a reason to push him. I mean I realize that noone needed a reason to push him because he claimed cult, but that's also why it bugged me. It just looked out of place and awkward.

I've seen a _lot_ worse than that. I could def see it being a scum gambit coming from town, and I didn't think it came off particularly disingenous. there was a fuckton of confusion about all the early claims, so I didn't really have a problem with it

The skitty confidence weirds me out. Skitty literally claimed survivor and then said he wasn't doing anything. I have no idea why anyone would have thought that was town at that point. I'll be working on piecing together the skitty puzzle; mollie still isn't sure what he's talking about, and I started reading some stuff but got behind do to stuff and not sure when I'll be able to get back to it. But the skitty confidence is eeeeeeeengh. He literally just got fooled by skitty in final fantasy where he spent most of the game lurking, so I have no idea why he would so hard town read skitty when he claims he's going to do the same thing he just did as scum. If ooba is scum, I'm going to say that skitty's wagon was actually town driven and ooba was hoping to scum hunt off of it as a distraction if it had gone to lynch.

my take on the Skitty situation when it happened was actually that I really didn't think their play made any sense at all for mafia. I mostly kept this to the hydra QT bc of how purely anti town they were playing, so I went around searching for evidence of a town mindset anywhere in their posts and found literally nothing. but I figured scum notsci sure as hell would be able to come up with a better strategy than claiming survivor first post and deliberately getting everyone to hate him, so I wasn't sure what to do about it.

for that reason, I could see ooba's Skitty read coming from town. the thing that bugs me is that he did this right after getting fooled by him before. wanna see what ooba says here

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I actually went through a lot, so I can't remember what I called you out on. However, if you are aware that you ignored my callout, why don't you answer it? Please include quotes for context.

if you can't even remember what you called me out on, I'm not going to bring it back up for you .-.

however, I did answer it in my most recent post to Tammy

Well, if a lot of people are agreeing on those reads, why are we having such a hard time getting them lynched? Heck, I thought my Esp read might be a little controversial, seeing as how people are townreading him for no good reason. For everyone supposedly calling Skitty and GGG scum, wagons on both have stalled.

. . .

are you seriously going to deny that a lot of people think Skitty and GGG are scum? those are probably 2 of the most agreeable reads in the game right now. how hard it is to get someone lynched has nothing to do with this (and if you want to talk votes, iirc Skitty and GGG both are major wagons? I at least remember Skitty was. so I don't know what you're going on about here), and I think you should be aware of that.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

okay so we need to talk here cos I wld like to think i am pretty good at picking up special tells but notty claimed survivor and caled screwed up that slot from my perspective but the times that I have seen when peeps try to move back and forth between an indie claim and a town it has nearly always come from scum so help me out here. I have been waiting for notty to produce and he simply isn't and this seems like more of scum notty than town notty but indie claim and I have no idea what that looks like cos I have never seen it so if you cld explain this piece I wld greatly appreciate it!

he has done this as town and I wanted to lynch him every time but he putting himself in an indefensible position by claiming indie but there is no follow up so i am kind of feeling like there is no follow up after then dropping a heavy softclaim that is town. I want a follow up! and I don't like I am being unreasonable here.

I'm really not sure what to say in response to this. I do agree a follow-up would be nice, but even if he doesn't give one it would not make me doubt my read on him in the slightest.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

VOTE: espy

I also like the part where I get wagoned every fucking game, because apparently I'm an easy scum-designated mislynch.

you still haven't responded to Nacho's post detailing why everything I pointed out in my initial case is valid without meta.

That took back back too, but I think he was being sarcastic.

it's funny, cos he didn't put AA9 as scum or mention her at all in his most recent reads list (the one I called him out on)

so if that was sarcastic, I think it's actually worse bc it looks like scum being scared to actually follow through with the AA9 push

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

No, but I'm also pointing out the resistance to show you that those reads are not as easy to jump on from a "go with the flow" type perspective. There are much better reads that I could jump on if I was scum trying to skate by, TD being one of them. Skitty has just as many people townreading them than scumreading them, and the wagon only just recently started taking off again, and I predict that it's going to stall just as heavily due to the opposition. GGG is another read that everyone seems to agree with, but no one wants to push. Your point seems to be that I'm scum because I agree that both of these players are scum and that I'm going with the flow. I would like to point out that I think that they're scum separate from concensus, that I was one of the first ones on GGG, that I stayed on Skitty when people started jumping off that wagon, and that I think that the fact that both wagons keep stalling is alignment indicative. Just because a read is common does not mean that it's wrong.

1. why is it alignment indicative that these specific wagons are stalling? none of the wagons in this game save the Skitty one from before have got past like 5 votes. you're also townreading TD, whose wagon stalled in a similar way.

2. as I said, how fast a wagon moves or how many people are on a wagon has nothing to do with the general consensus about them. you yourself just said everyone seems to agree that GGG is scum. this is the point I am making.

I also want to fact check that bit about GGG because afaik you were pushing AA9 over him, and then sometime later said they weren't scum together and thus that GGG was more likely. this (iirc, correct me if I'm wrong) came *after* a lot of people expressed suspicion of GGG and when it looked like you sure as hell believed AA9 was scum.

3. what the hell happened to your AA9 push from before? I would expect you would at least mention her in your reads list, given you still seem to be pushing her as suspicious independently of GGG. I think it looks like you're scared to actually follow through on the AA9 push.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

pie reads (unsynced, Kagami is still busy)

TOWN (S->W): Skitty <gap> AA9, Goat, SB, MS, TWOH <gap> ooba, ZZZX, shos, MM*
{GIF-slot, dramonic, WS, droog, DN, Esp}
SCUM (W->S): PV, GGG, adorkable <gap> TD, Bulba, BRO

TD, Bulba, and BRO have all been hard defending each other throughout this game day in ways that don't make sense. this is relevant given I'm scumreading all 3 of them individually.

vote: Bulba

^ I still think BRO is scum but I want to consolidate here; I don't yet know what Kagami wants to do, but I'm not sure when she'll get back, so fuck it.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

it doesn't look like the BRO wagon is going anywhere and I don't want to fuck around arguing with none of the wagons ever going anywhere until deadline

/shrug

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I do love you for jumping on there with me though <3

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

were you scumreading TD earlier?

if you were, what do you make of the fact both TD and BRO have been defending Bulba, and vice versa? I'd also like to know if you think the reasons they were doing so actually make sense.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Here's your fucking response you goddamn prick: Nacho also missed the point I was making.

Let me try to break this down into very simple, bite size pieces for you to understand, so that neither you nor anybody else can fucking misrep me again.

You made initial points that

in a void, had no bearing on me being scum.

Each individual point was something that

isn't

alignment indicative, and if you were going to argue that those things were alignment indicative, you're either scum or absolutely horrible at mafia, because, as I've brought up, there are plenty of examples of those behaviors coming from town (since you're arguing that they come from scum).

Then you brought in meta, which I'll refer to as "contextualization" if it makes it any clearer. You tied the argument together with, "In the context of how I would expect BRO to play as town (definition of meta), this is off, thereby making him scum." Without that, as I've just said, the case... doesn't really exist. It's like trying to say "p5 is lurking, therefore he's scum," when town lurk to the level that he's lurking... fairly frequently. He does this shit every game.

I think his points about point-depth and how I see things differently than most other people and have trouble communicating what I'm seeing are fairly on point. I'm not sure if it's a depth or style thing, but the fact that I can see confirmed scum (like, literally PR-confirmed scum) while the rest of the town derps around wondering whether it's confirmed scum or not is 10/10 infuriating.

lol

I literally answered all of these points the last time we had this conversation. but I get you're scum spouting bullshit and probably won't lynch you today, so I don't particularly feel like continuing this further

it's funny you're specifically referring to me here when TWOH agrees with me that everything I pointed out _was_ alignment indicative. are they "absolutely horrible at mafia" or scum too?

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

@Nacho: ^ how's that for a discredit, btw?

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

haven't fully read the post yet, but

I wouldn't know, as I was in a different part of the game at that point. It does concern me that you keep glossing over that fact.

this doesn't mean anything to me. it is entirely possible you skimmed through the thread or otherwise got a good idea of the major events that happened before catching up. I don't see how this applies in this scenario, either - afaict, your course of action would have been determined entirely by things that happened before that point, so I don't see what the problem here is

anyway, the problem with MS' and Bulba's hard defense of each other is that the one reason I could think of for MS doing this doesn't actually mean anything, and I'm not sure if he realizes this.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

What reads list?

the one from the end of 2435 that I initially started asking you about

From a game flow perspective, the Skitty wagon hit a wall and then started reversing.

if you're town, I really wish you would give up on this. you're on the wrong track here and you're not reading in between the lines enough. it's pretty embarrassing that you're telling everyone to read in between the lines re: you, but haven't done so yourself.

TD was under a lot more scrutiny for a lot longer, but that was disbanded in a fairly organic manner (mostly to do with the Sonic/TWOH fight and the subsequent move back to Skitty followed quickly by the counter wagon on me.). Compare that with my wagon, which is building quickly. The typical mode of thought is that wagons that are hard to build tend to be on scum and that fast moving wagons tend to be on town. While I don't always agree with that, I have started to see the validity, and it does freak me out if a wagon starts building really fast or if one fails to gain momentum despite many people being suspicious of that player. It's not the strongest bits of evidence, but combined with other info, I think they're more than adequate.

so TD was under a lot more scrutiny for a lot longer.

that's exactly what I'm saying. if what you said is accurate (and I haven't checked this, I just saw there was a wagon on TD that didn't get anywhere), the TD wagon stalled for *longer* than the other wagons, and was *harder* to build than the wagon on you which built quickly. aside from it disbanding in an organic way (I'd like you to elaborate on this, but at the same time I don't think I would understand your reasoning here since I would never think of it as a town tell) I don't see how you're getting a town read out of this.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

It's being driven by Esp-scum.

this is also incredibly inconsistent. you just said earlier that:

Esp is scum for the bloc voting. He's not actually developing his own scumreads, but is instead hiding behind the reads of others. He did the same in the recent Lucid Dreamers marathon game by sheeping Mew (Lynch the heretic who betrayed the Cult of Mew!).

Esp was not developing his own reads but hiding behind the reads of others, and I'm pretty sure the BRO read was one of the reads you were referring to here.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Esp votes and pushes Bro. The wagon starts to pick up. While you may have started the Bro wagon, Esp is the driving force behind it, and that point is not inconsistent with what I said in the above post, since he's hiding behind your reasoning while doing so.

......................

the only reason Esp joined the BRO wagon was BECAUSE of my push on him.

without my push, Esp's push WOULDN'T HAVE EXISTED. I'm the one who initially picked up on the BRO scumread and made most of the noise about it. ESP WAS ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO PICKED UP ON IT.

furthermore, Esp was the

3rd vote on the BRO wagon. THE BRO WAGON ONLY REACHED 4 VOTES TOTAL.

ESP WAS IN NO WAY THE DRIVING FORCE BEHIND THE WAGON. MOREOVER, OOBA OUTRIGHT SAID HE WAS SHEEPING

ME

, AND MS VOTED HIM JUST SO HE WOULDN'T HAVE TO VOTE YOU.

you can not claim that Esp (or anyone besides me, really) was driving that wagon. this is a blatant lie.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

yes I am

Bulba claims Esp is the driving force behind the wagon. if he is, he was able to get like 1 vote and that was it. I'm the one who created the wagon, built it up to that point, made basically _all_ the noise about the scum read on you, and convinced Esp in the first place.

I could 100% see it if he was saying that Esp was _a_ driving force behind the wagon, or that he was just scum on the wagon. but he explicitly said Esp was _the_driving force behind the wagon, which is incorrect.

it's funny you say I'm "not getting" what Bulba is saying when, being scum, it's more likely I'm just BS'ing here. amirite?

p-edit: @BRO

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Esp voted Bro. He used your reasoning and pushed hard. Attention turned hard and fast onto Bro. That's not a coincidence.

this is false. I literally just told you why Esp pushing BRO hard had nothing to do with why there was more attention placed onto him. half the people who want to vote BRO do so just because they want the day to end or, in MS's case, as a counterwagon to you.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

and if you actually think Esp was pushing BRO harder than me, fucking lol

p-edit: @Bulba

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

So why did the wagon not start moving until Esp pushed it. It stalled on your one vote for a while, but Esp magically made the wagon a viable wagon for the day.

this is false. you're conveniently ignoring the fact ooba has been sheeping me this whole time without regard to anything Esp did. additionally, the wagon did not move much at all _after_ Esp pushed it, as indicated by the _one_ vote it gained.

your argument is essentially that Esp is scum because your wagon didn't start moving until Esp pushed it. this is also false. it's equally as likely that Esp is town and voted you because he thought you were scum and that his vote would make your wagon viable, and that whatever resulting "attention" you're picking up on is a result of that instead - moreover, if he was scum looking for a wagon, Bulba would have been fine. you are also saying this, without explaining _why_ the reasoning behind his vote doesn't hold water, or _why_ him sheeping me is more likely to come from scum than town.

All of a sudden, we're getting a lot of "That's a good Bro case.". If you can't see that, then I don't know what to say to you.

I want to know what this is referring to, bc I don't remember anyone actually taking Esp's read into consideration.

so far, these are the people not currently on the BRO wagon who have seriously considered a BRO vote:

mental somnic - explicitly responded to my attack on BRO, as opposed to anything Esp said. this also happened, iirc,

_before_ Esp started pushing him (let me know if I'm wrong here).

droog - only wants to lynch him to get the day to end.

that's literally it. like, I've been keeping track and that's all I remember. am I missing something? let me know if I am because afaict what you're saying is blatantly wrong.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I will lol if I'm right about both BRO and Bulba and I'm actually witnessing them trying to double team me right now

I have to admit, I am kind of curious if this really makes sense as a scum/scum interaction. I still think it does, but I am kind of confused here as to if they would have any specific agenda in mind by doing so. it almost feels too good to be true :<

inb4 they're doing it to obfuscate my guess of TD/Bulba/BRO

also @MS: I've dropped like a million hints asking you to reconsider your read if what I think is going on is going on. and I don't understand why you would defend him so hard if it wasn't that.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I've seen your "hints" do you think I am fucking dense? No, my intepretation of your intepretation of what is going on is that your intepretation is wrong. Use fucking Occam's razor. Holy shit.

(((MS)))

I am trying. if you're right about this, I just haven't been able to figure out why yet :/ there's literally no reason I can come up with that would be indicative of Bulba legitimately being town.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Okay, I went back over the game from Esp's hiding behind your reasoning on, and I'm seeing what you're saying. I swore that there was a lot more heat on Bro, but that might have been because Mollie/Tammy were going over the Bro case at that point in time, making me think that the tide was turning in that direction.

All paranoia aside, you do know that Esp is still the scum on that wagon, right?

_if_ BRO flips town, I would look at Esp. however, as it stands, I don't have a problem with Esp's vote (see my response to BRO for why - it's equally as likely Esp voted BRO at the point he did bc he's town, legitimately thinks BRO is scum, and wanted to make the wagon viable - I also don't see why he would pass up on wagoning you if he was scum looking for a wagon), let alone having enough of a problem to make me reconsider BRO's alignment.

I also haven't really had a problem with Esp's posting in general so far, either. as for your point about bloc voting, I can see why he would find BRO bad for obvious reasons, and I'm inclined to agree PV has done literally nothing this game, so I don't think the way he's doing that is conclusive. (I admit I'm giving him some slack here after replacing in)

now that you realized there wasn't *actually* that much heat on BRO, what do you make of BRO attempting to sheep your point on this?

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

and with that, I'm going to bed

merry Christmas everyone >w<//

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

...

WE ARE FUCKING MASONS WITH BULBA

How is alignment confirmed within the masonry?

Bulb is town, bulb shares your alignment, bulb is not mafia?

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

-kagami

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

bulb's behavior indicates the claim is very clearly true.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Why is droog town, sonic? You had an early townread on him that I had chalked up to likely masonry.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

hey MS

remember quickness mafia? town reads based on neighborhoods should _always_ be reevaluated, and I think you should know this. if you're really going to push a read entirely based on stuff from the QT, fucking lol

also, we are not lynching Skitty, and for someone who spams the fucking thread telling everyone to read in between the lines every 2 posts, the fact that you want to lynch him is outright embarrassing

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Votecount:
Skitty: 7 (The Goat, Bulbazak, TiphaineDeath, Southern Belles, mental somnic, dramonic)
Bulbazak: 6 (AA9, TWOH, DeathNote, GGG, droog, JTS-T)
BROseidon: 2 (ooba, Espeonage)
TiphaineDeath: 1 (Skitty)
Espeonage: 1 (BROseidon)
AA9: 1 (Major Minor)
droog: 1 (Winter Skies)

Not Voting:
adorkable, Elric Brothers, PeregrineV, ZZZX, shos

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Skitty wagon is very likely to be scum driven - Bulba and TD are both on there, and I don't particularly feel good about dramonic either. Bulba wagon has a very good chance of being all town except for maybe GGG.

anyone else who jumps on Skitty at this point should be held under a _lot_ of scrutiny. this might not make much sense now, but if y'all want to risk going for it, be my guest

p-edit: ...

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

welp that's fucking fantastic

Skitty wagon is bad and everyone on it should feel bad. we are not lynching them today. if you do not want to lynch Bulba for whatever reason, get the fuck on either BRO or TD or come up with something, but I can't possibly be the only person who's noticing the momentum shift that's going on right now.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I'd be fine with GGG. the problem is I'm not sure how viable that lynch actually is, which I don't like bc I absolutely do not want Skitty lynched today no matter what.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

This wagon makes the most sense. Town skitty would have at least made some effort to play and scum hunt even after the gambit screwed up.

when did you first start thinking this, btw?

afaict your whole reason for wanting a Skitty lynch was that Goat wasn't satisfied with what they claimed in the neighbor thread, and you had made no mention of the way they were lurking before. I think this looks like scum trying to go with the flow.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

do you have an argument for goat boy scum

[] yes
[] no

cos I can't see a plausible 1 no matter how hard you try to shift it.

I am no expert on his finesse as scum cos I have never seen it! but I have seen his town twice before and I think he is being direct.

he is sharing a neighbourhood with them. I HATE that they are not responding to any suspicion they have on them. its like they gave up which to me looks like scum!notty.

if you have a better argument I am willing to listen.

Goat is not scum. both Goat and NS are town and I think Goat is just extremely wrong

NS lurking this game is not actually alignment indicative. again, I can't think of a good way to explain this, but it will absolutely make sense in due time.

what are your reads on GGG and TD?

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

considering that you didnt believe me when i told you to (and i am still a little sore about that)

are you fucking kidding me?

Bulba is in no way proven town like you seem to think he is. your entire point was that was he was a mason, when BEING A MASON MEANS NOTHING IN A BASTARD GAME.

and you already know that Bulba supposedly being so "town" in your QT means fuck all, sooooo

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I thought that was notty is in this game tell #1.

^this

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I really have no words for this anymore.

MS, you are _extremely_ misguided and continue to spam the fuck out of the thread without any attempt to reconsider your read despite the fact you don't have any _actual_ evidence for Bulba being town, and despite at the very least me/Nacho and some other people telling you as much.

case in point: I literally just told you (after Nacho and Esp told you the same thing) that Bulba being a mason means nothing, and you instead..... ignore me and continue to spam "lol Bulba is town" over and over

if you are town, please just stop. what you are doing is in no way pro-town and you're essentially singlehandedly causing the toxic as shit gamestate that's going on right now. I at this point think you know better than this and am considering the possibility both you and Bulba are scum masons with each other, but whatever. what you are doing is not, and will never, convince anyone, and is anti-town at best and scum-motivated at worst. (p-edit: "fake masons are the least of your worries" is literally not relevant to anything) this is really all I am going to say.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

pie, can we lynch bro?

^I want this the most, except hardly anyone wants to actually lynch him.

I'm on Bulba instead bc I agree with Nacho's case, we need a lynch, we need a lynch other than Skitty, and he's likely to be scum with BRO anyway. at this point, I quite honestly just don't feel like putting all the effort to get enough votes for an alternate lynch unless I'm reasonably certain it will end up being a viable lynch.

lynching bulba "just to find out"

you want to lynch bulba to find out if kise was really lying about us being masons?

hell fucking no

it has nothing to do with "wanting to find out if Kise was lying". rather, you being masons does not change the fact that Bulba's ACTUAL PLAY has consisted of things that are more likely to come from scum than town. this is what I have been saying this whole time.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Yeaaaah, there is no way in hell mental somnic and bulba will both live till endgame so there's no reason for us to lynch them, we can figure this shit out when we have a flip.

lol

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

vote: GGG

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

@GGG:

This wagon makes the most sense. Town skitty would have at least made some effort to play and scum hunt even after the gambit screwed up.

when did you first start thinking this, btw?

afaict your whole reason for wanting a Skitty lynch was that Goat wasn't satisfied with what they claimed in the neighbor thread, and you had made no mention of the way they were lurking before. I think this looks like scum trying to go with the flow.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

About more than one thing. I'd really love to focus on other persons playing, as I have been requested to put in effort elsewhere. However, those who are adamant in the "We're not lynching Skitty today and that's final" crew, coupled with Skitty's general unwillingness to explain WTF they did is making things difficult.

the only thing I remember about them lying was caled denying being a neighbor with you? I think that post was pretty obviously a joke and I think you're taking it way too literally. NS at the least has def trolled in a similar way before, and I'm pretty sure caled would as well.

I agree that _if_ NS hasn't yet fully explained what he did in the neighbor QT he should go ahead and do that. however,

1. NS tends to get irrationally paranoid of neighbors, so I don't particularly think the way he's skeptical about it is indicative
2. I think this is a completely dumb thing for NS-scum to actually lie about, so I don't think his lack of giving answers points to him hiding anything.

the latter point in particular is of interest (and is smth I find 99% of players outright ignore when they think they pick up on someone hiding smth) and is the reason none of this about "lol he lied about xxx" matters to me. combined with the fact that I know exactly what he's trying to do here and that it'd be suicidal to even try to attempt smth like it as scum in this scenario, is why they're basically as conftown as an IC for this.

I have no intention of budging on this read nor arguing about it. this is how it is.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

How am I going with the flow here? I have been wanting a skitty lynch from day 1. I got off skitty when there was some wink, wink, meta stuff being said and this could be validated through goat. The bulba scumread was stopped by the mason claim which for now I don't want to lynch despite it being bastard.

this was referring to how it appeared that you brought up Skitty's lurking out of nowhere; it looked more like scum trying to blend in given that seems to be a widely held reason for them being scum and you hadn't mentioned it before

why is "mason claim" a good reason for not lynching Bulba, given you think his actual play is scummy? being a mason in a bastard game means nothing, so him claiming mason shouldn't be a good reason for backing off said read.

How do you explain the non involvement in the game if they are town?

there are two reasons

one of them (the more compelling reason) is smth I can't elaborate on. the other one is that it appears they are very far behind and there is no denying that the current gamestate is pretty shit and likely impossible to catch up on with all the MS spam going on; so I don't exactly have a problem with them being apathetic, especially when they fucked up to the extent that they did.

did you actually think I'd be able to give an answer for this? I think it's pretty obvious I'm trying to be deliberately vague about this (especially given I've blatantly ignored at least one request to elaborate more), so I don't know what the purpose of this question is.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

The bulba scumread was stopped by the mason claim which for now I don't want to lynch despite it being bastard.

actually, it appalls me how many people in general are pushing this, given it is objectively wrong

MS, GGG, shos, TD, and I think at least one other person have now expressed a similar sentiment. the objective fact is mason claim in this scenario should be evaluated based on actual in-thread play as opposed to just writing them off until later. this should really be common sense.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

^ Posts like this are why I don't want to lynch GGG today.

why? theory is basically as null as you can get

Then again, the TD wagon did drop off for a reason so if someone points that out to me, that would be great.

there was none. it just never went anywhere

I'd back a TD wagon 100%.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Skitty is a town cop, he crumbed it in his opening post. He claimed survivor to avoid being NKed in a stupid sort of gambit.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

If he were scum, ns would not have completely screwed over his hydra by claiming non-town in his opening without even consulting his partner, especially when he could have just let caldef take the reigns since he doesn't like playing scum..

If he were a survivor, he would likewise not have done so.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

N

ow that the game's started-

W

e are a survivor that wins with everyone.

O

ur flavor is Pacman.

T

hat being said, we're going to be jumping on the main wagon from here on out.

C

ourse, I might have some witty banter for you all.

O

ne doesn't just get in this awesome playerlist and lurk the entire time.

P

retty much all I'm going to do though.

Bolded mine (credit to pie, btw, for having figured this out)

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I believe they are a cop of some sanity, and that they overestimate the value of their role in a known-bastard game.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Their behavior makes no sense as non-town, especially their animosity toward the goat.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

How does theirs stance toward the goat make more sense as scum than town?

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

That's not my case at all. Their behavior makes sense as town who believes the goat is scum, and makes no sense as scum who have every reason to try to appease the goat.

If their goal was to coast out suspicion, they'd have happily explained to the goat what their plan was and pointed to their crumb, possibly earning them another supporter. Instead they antagonized him.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Maybe because they think they're a sane cop.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I can't think of anything nice/non-offensive to say, so I'll just say that that "crumb" is worthless. Everything he's done has been extremely anti-town, having crumbed NOT COP in your first post doesn't magically give you a free pass.

He crumbed NWOT COP not NOT COP.

What has he done that's anti-town? As far as I can tell, they've done nothing at all.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Why are you disclosing this and not skitty?

Why wouldn't have skitty disclosed this to goat in the neighbour thread first. If he is scum and goat doesn't say that there was an explanation we found scum, if goat discloses you get the same result as now. It skitty is night killed and flips cop we quickly figure out that goat is the leak.

Also can you link to the game where skitty did this same type of cramming before?

Because he's at L-1.

Because any number of people could have seen what we saw.

No.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Actually, the answer to the last question is yes. Cramming/crumbing.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

NS clearly believed he would potentially not be lynched on the basis of survivor claim alone, and planned to reach out to nacho if things went south.

Anyway, I do find it silly that I'm here defending them rather than them doing it themselves, but I think they are indeed town and this lynch is terrible.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I can't think of anything nice/non-offensive to say, so I'll just say that that "crumb" is worthless. Everything he's done has been extremely anti-town, having crumbed NOT COP in your first post doesn't magically give you a free pass.

He crumbed NWOT COP not NOT COP.

What has he done that's anti-town? As far as I can tell, they've done nothing at all.

You debolded the survivor claim and rebolded the W, but the capital letters in that post that werent already bolded say "NOT COP".
Also he claimed survivor, lied on multiple occasion, refuses to communicate and lurks and/or flaked (unclear on that one)
These are all antitown things to do. The fact you think "they've done nothing at all." makes me really tingly though.

If you ignore the bolded letters for some reason, the capital letters say NOPT COP. If you don't, they say NWOPT COP. If you use common sense, consider the Capital letters that begin clauses, and recognize that no one would crumb "NOT COP," they spell "NWOT COP" for "TOWN COP"

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

NS clearly believed he would potentially not be lynched on the basis of survivor claim alone, and

planned to reach out to nacho if things went south.

Anyway, I do find it silly that I'm here defending them rather than them doing it themselves, but I think they are indeed town and this lynch is terrible.

And you think that comes from a TOWN mindset???

yes.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Explain to me our bad reasons.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I'll summarize the major points for you, and you can explain why we're wrong.

1. NS claimed survivor prior to caldef's arrival in the hydra; if he were scum, this would mean that he essentially doomed the slot for pretty much no reason without consulting his partner.

2. NS refused to reveal his crumb to his neighbor, who he claims to believe is scum. If he were scum, there's absolutely no reason not to point out the crumb and reveal his "plan."

My understanding of your argument is:

1. They are lurking/flaking (which is not a terrible argument given NS lurks/flakes frequently as scum, but I'm not sure caldef would do the same)

2. They lied about being a survivor.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

He didn't doom his slot. He expected to be able to reach out to wischo, and let them steer any lynch away from him. We caught it instead, but the result is the same.

The "play," I presume, was that he intended to coast through the game and avoid being nightkilled while amassing cop results. Interacting with a scum neighbor in just about any way jeopardizes that. I agree that it's not a

good

plan, but I think it's nevertheless something that's not unreasonable to come up with.

And you still don't explain why scum-skitty would go out of his way to upset his neighbor, who would be the easiest person to reveal his plan to.

Fwiw, I still agree with you on survivors. The probability of a survivor being any different than a mafia traitor is extremely low (equivalent to the probability that a game never reaches lylo).

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I agree with Dramonic. And Johou how are you reading them as cop when nobody can see that.

I was telling pie that it made no sense for him to claim survivor as either survivor or scum prior to caldef arriving. Pie looked into all the stuff skitty was saying to wischo and found the crumb.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

=\

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

Yep. This makes perfect sense, but I didn't consider that possibility.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

and skitty was waiting for day 2, which he'd start with a "guilty" on the goat.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

tbqh, I was only townreading the goat because I thought he was the dayvig.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

It was a great lynch. Short of a vig shot, it had to happen anyway.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

(or the other way around with the same result)

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

:<

first off, I'm still sure the Skitty wagon was scum driven

second off, I'm really sad because it's becoming more and more clear to me BRO is indeed scum and I'm not just seeing what I want to see here. if anything cemented this for me, it's the way he handled the Skitty lynch. he

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

how the hell did that post? give me a sec, full post incoming

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

he obviously saw NS's crumb (2659), but when the wagon was reaching critical mass, he did literally nothing to stop it, instead making weak-ass attempts to poke at me/Esp (which if you just look at it were so passive there was no way in hell they could have gone anywhere). and the thing is, I'd be ok with that if he was trying to sit back, observe the composition of the wagon, and come back later going "this wagon is ass, get off it". but that wasn't even what he was doing, as indicated by his entrance where he came back and said it didn't change his reads any.

essentially, despite thinking NS was supposedly a town cop, he had no interest in attempting to derail the lynch nor scumhunt off the wagon; he just sat back and didn't give a shit.

also, to elaborate more on the first point: since they weren't group-scum, in general terms, a lynch on them has the same utility as a lynch on any town player or anyone who isn't group-scum from a group-scum perspective. the lack of a counterwagon is also a pretty sure sign Skitty was the scum-designated mislynch of the day, imo.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I've also hated his recent play in general. it's consisted entirely of sitting on his ass, responding to the pressure on him by taking weak potshots and/or discrediting the people pushing him, and hardly any scum hunting that isn't weak and/or surface level.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

@WS:

:/

In no way shape or form were you not the catalyst for derailing the Skitty wagon. It's entirely plausible WisNacho could have pushed that wagon through if you didn't hoot and holler about it.

I'm aware of that. what I'm saying was that TD apparently believed this post:

i will fucking dayvig the next person to vote Skitty

i am 100% fucking serious about this.

actually scared everyone off the Skitty wagon, and that that (as opposed to literally anything else) was the reason the Skitty wagon got derailed the first time. I don't believe anyone could ~actually~ think that and I think it looks more like scum trying to find an easy thing to attack. do you disagree?

Thanks for those reads I asked for ages ago. It's interesting to see that you guys are exhibiting almost zero confidence in reading my slot. I'd at least expect some sort of push, read, reachout, demand to sheep you of some sort.

I actually don't have a very good idea of how to read you. most of my effort this game has been sorting out the BRO read and trying to get votes off Skitty, and picking up whatever other reads I get in the meantime. I've also been trying to avoid another Tales of You where I essentially tried to push really really hard so that people would follow me and wasn't open to any other possibilities at all - I admit that's what I did with Skitty bc I had what I thought was a 100% reason for them being not-group-scum and didn't consider the possibility of lyncher, but in general I don't want to go doing the same thing unless I have a *very* good reason for it.

[Johou Tougou Shinen-Tai]

I figured he would claim and was waiting to respond to that.

you thought that after they claimed, at L-1 or whatever, you'd be able to help derail the lynch?

you literally just said that us pointing out the cop crumb at L-1 - which is basically equivalent to them claiming cop themselves -wouldn't derail the lynch in this context. it is clear you agreed that nothing would have derailed the lynch at that point. squirm much?


I also think your accusation of "misrep" is *again* out of place. you seem to think I'm scum who's deliberately misrep'ing you for whatever reason, when scum-me would have no way of knowing you didn't actually see the cop crumb (and would thus be more likely to just be fake scumhunting here).