Mini 1646: Quil's Smalltown (Game over!)

[Bookitty]

I was hoping to take the Archivist role when it's my turn because otherwise I have no idea what to choose.

If someone else especially wants that, though, I'll try to figure something else out. Let me know, please.

[Bookitty]

I would like to choose the

Archivist

please. Thanks so much!

[Bookitty]

If someone really hates their role, I am willing to trade mine (Archivist) if that's allowed by the Mod. I'm not really all that picky.

Just let me know!

[Bookitty]

I'm not getting much in the way of scumreads, but I'm getting unusual quality Townreads

BooKitty, for example. There's just way too much incentive for scum to want that role (arguably a stronger investigator than 1-shot Cop) out of Town hands. No real reason for scum (either type) to make that offer. And no, I don't think it's WIFOM-bait, that's too obscure to reliably think someone will WK you for it

Thank you! Though I was mostly thinking that my role wouldn't make that much difference to my having fun in this game and it might make a bigger difference to someone else. That was pretty much my whole thought process there.

[Bookitty]

You're saying farside is scum based on role selection? Wtf would scum want that role? It is of no use to them.

You know there's an SK, right?

Why did you pick Roleblocker and then switch to Ascetic? Walk me through your thought process, please.

[Bookitty]

I don't really see the Marquis role-related suspicion right now.

Encryptor is of no use to town for sure. But it's very useful for scum and so there's this:

First-level: Scum would take Encryptor.
Second-level: Town would take Encryptor to keep it from scum.
Second-level: Scum might not want to take Encryptor to avoid being obvious.

It's all speculation and WIFOM. The fact that Marquis took Encryptor FIRST makes it less likely to be first-level for me. There are more helpful and less obvious choices to make when all of them are available.

Since all the power roles are out there, I think it's going to be really important to express reads openly when we have them (not that I have any definite reads yet). This can help power roles target more accurately imo without giving scum clearcut answers on who will be targeted by any particular role.

Still waiting for an answer from Aronis.

[Bookitty]

Here is a list of the chosen roles in order. I was reminding myself about what Invictus and Insomniac do, so I went ahead and put it in order of choosing:

Marquis, the Encryptor
Aronis, the Ascetic
DeasVail, the Bulletproof
xRECKONERx, the One-Shot Cop
Pine, the Gentleman Thief
Bookitty, the Archivist
farside22, the Invictus
Jake from State Farm, the Roleblocker
Shiidaji, the Bodyguard
Grib, the Insomniac
Jingle, the Coroner
Antihero, the Universal Backup
Flubbernugget, the Vengeful Vanilliser

I don't think people at the bottom of this list can really be judged based solely on the role they chose. Just my opinion, though.

@Aronis: Why do you think an ascetic is especially powerful in scum hands and should be kept out of them? I have a few ideas on this and want to understand your thought process when switching from roleblocker to ascetic. The reasons you gave seem odd to me.

[Bookitty]

@Aronis:

A hidden ascetic would indeed be a powerful role for scum. I really don't see it that way in a game where all roles are known to everyone, though. Ascetics are no more immune to lynch than anyone else, and in a game with groupscum and SK, I don't see an open ascetic role as something to be kept from scum.

In at least one game I have been in (I think there were more, but this one was more recent) the claimed ascetic was lynched almost right away. I don't think that applies exactly here, since we KNOW you're an ascetic. Still, you're gaining all the benefits you ascribe to scum in that you can't be targeted for anything and your alignment can't be determined. You should realise that makes you a likely target for lynching just because we can't know if you're scum or town.

Roleblocker is a role I think scum would want to avoid in this game, though. Roleblocks that don't correspond with town interests (for instance, roleblocks on investigative roles) would be pretty obvious and would lead to suspicion and possible lynch. Because all the roles are out in the open, it's going to be much harder for scum to hide and still play effectively to their win condition.

Do you feel pretty confident in your ability to play power roles well, Aronis?
However, for town these difficulties don't exist.

[Bookitty]

Sorry, somehow I transposed two sentences at the end. Let me fix that:

@Aronis:

A hidden ascetic would indeed be a powerful role for scum. I really don't see it that way in a game where all roles are known to everyone, though. Ascetics are no more immune to lynch than anyone else, and in a game with groupscum and SK, I don't see an open ascetic role as something to be kept from scum.

In at least one game I have been in (I think there were more, but this one was more recent) the claimed ascetic was lynched almost right away. I don't think that applies exactly here, since we KNOW you're an ascetic. Still, you're gaining all the benefits you ascribe to scum in that you can't be targeted for anything and your alignment can't be determined. You should realise that makes you a likely target for lynching just because we can't know if you're scum or town.

Roleblocker is a role I think scum would want to avoid in this game, though. Roleblocks that don't correspond with town interests (for instance, roleblocks on investigative roles) would be pretty obvious and would lead to suspicion and possible lynch. Because all the roles are out in the open, it's going to be much harder for scum to hide and still play effectively to their win condition. However, for town these difficulties don't exist.

Do you feel pretty confident in your ability to play power roles well, Aronis?

[Bookitty]

Who here has played with aronis?

*Looks at reck*

Pretty sure you have.

Most people find him scummy.
His response is typical aronis. :headsmack:

Sorry about inactivity today; I fell asleep

@Farside: Does Aronis typically act this way regardless of alignment?

I haven't played with him before that I remember. My objection to him (apart from role related things, most notably the stutter-step about roleblocker vs. ascetic) is attitude. He's doling out information very sparingly and he seems really antagonistic in response to questions.

I asked him if he was confident in his ability to play power roles because that would have been an answer as to why one would pick ascetic over roleblocker. I'm not terribly confident myself but I'm planning on asking who I should target and then picking semi-randomly from the responses given. It's not like I need to hide in this game.

I think if you pick a role that can't be read you ought to be willing to eat the lynch because it's going to be necessary unless you town it up incredibly and basically prove yourself through other means. Aronis hasn't done that. He's done the opposite of that. You're saying he's abrasive, I think -- if he knows that, then it's on him to either choose a different role or to demonstrate he's town through play.

If this is his playstyle, we're going to have to lynch him at some point anyway for being unreadable and/or scummy. Why shouldn't it be today?

[Bookitty]

I don't think you've been antagonistic to me. Post 124 is pretty antagonistic, and your tone with Marquis wasn't making me think of puppies and kittens either.

You've consistently given short answers and minimal information. The most recent example is when I asked you about your confidence in playing power roles. "Just depends." That's the attitude I mean, most specifically -- the shortest answer that gives the least information. I was trying to figure out your alignment, but your ISO is giving ZERO help in that.

Every reason you give for wanting to keep ascetic out of scum hands is a reason scum might want it. Choosing ascetic in the first place gives your slot an expiration date. I wouldn't think you'd be surprised that people want to lynch you since they can't investigate you. You're giving them nothing to read you with either.

[Bookitty]

Aronis has foot in mouth issues. There are many times he post things that have been looked at as scummy.
He also has made bad choices as town. I don't expect him to use a role well but I could be bias based on one game.

1. Why is being abressive behavoir scummy?
2. Have you ever seen players change bad behavoir before?

1. It's not. It makes you more likely to be lynched, though.
2. I have. I don't see how that's relevant.

If I had chosen ascetic, I would expect to be lynched unless I acted really really town. Because I think that, I wouldn't have picked it even if it had been an option because I would consider that I was depriving town of one person pretty much automatically. What I think doesn't dictate what Aronis thinks, but this didn't thrill me:

So roleblocker is probably my favorite 'normal' mafia role. And basically my idea was to pick a powerful role and keep it out of scum hands, at first I thought roleblocker, but after thinking about it, if the cop gets blocked we'll know who's responsible, so it isn't as powerful due to it being public. Ascetic, on the other hand, is extremely helpful, because they become immune to everything, except the sk kill and getting lynched.

Yet later on he forgot about the SK kill when defending Farside despite thinking of it both during his role selection and during his defense of his role selection:

@Jingle: I had forgotten about the SK.

Let me flip this question for you, Farside:

Why is Aronis town? We can't investigate him to check, he mostly gives one or two line answers that provide minimal information, and he's chosen a role that by his own admission is extremely helpful for scum.

Why are you so convinced he's town?

[Bookitty]

Archivist on the other hand is almost certainly town. He watches Reck tonight, and if reck dies we lynch scum.

That isn't how my role works as I understand it.

You are the Archivist.

This means that along with your voice and your vote, you also possess the following special ability:

>>> Archives: Each Night you may nominate the current or a previous Night phase and a player.
You will be told who, if anyone, the nominated player targeted on the nominated Night phase.

Targeting Reck won't help. I'm essentially a tracker, not a watcher. HOWEVER, the good part is that if we can figure out a group of the most likely suspects, then I get two shots out of that group to see whodunnit; one where I'm basically on my own and one that can be directed by town since scum can't retroactively not be the one doing the kill. Like a do-over if I don't get it right the first time.

[Bookitty]

Yeah, I'm not voting him yet, Farside. My push was to get answers from him.

You say Aronis always plays this way as town or scum. (Well, you're sort of tentative, but that's what I'm getting from you.) By waffling on his role choice and then choosing one that by his own statements is super useful for scum, he's already put on a big sticker that says: Hi! My name is: Probscum. It's on him to show that he's worth more to town as an asset than as a settled question mark.

My question to him about power roles was a lifeline of sorts, I guess. If I'd taken roleblocker, I would have targeted people with no obvious night actions (ascetic or encryptor, for instance) and hoped that this would stop a nightkill. I'm not sure that I'd have been that great in that role. If Aronis had said something indicating that he was not confident about his ability to play the role to best benefit in this game, I would have understood that. Instead, he originally said it was one of his favorite roles and then answered my question with "Just depends." What am I supposed to derive from that?

You've defended him more than he has, which is odd for someone you don't have as a town-read.

[Bookitty]

I mean no one ask marquis why he picked his role. What could he say other then keep it from scum hands now that you gave him that response?

theoretically the best course of action is to make selection phase similar to an early day 1 and determine the towniest "good/threatening" player and give them encryptor so scum has to make the decision to kill a town pr or kill a threatening player but 1) i will only trust myself for a long while this game 2) it is absolutely critical that scum don't get encryptor in this setup and 3) i don't have to worry about my pr fucking things up/being tempted not to follow plans

contemplated coroner but doesn't matter as much as encryptor since scum lying about that result is basically just saying "yo can some1 crosskill me kthx"

same for cop

Not a very good point, Farside. I expect better from you.

Why do you think Pine is going to steal your role? Why do you think he'd be targeted for a nightkill tonight if you think he's scum and are voting him?

[Bookitty]

i made a decently-sized aronis meta post that's been ignored completely by all parties what's up with that let's lynch him

I don't have meta on him so I didn't have a lot to say about it.

What do you think of this from Farside, please?

I mean no one ask marquis why he picked his role. What could he say other then keep it from scum hands now that you gave him that response? Where are people asking why Pine took thief? Sure it's public knowledge but I can tell you without thinking my bet he will use his ability on me.

[Bookitty]

1. so why is this something you pointed out against aronis
2. like who? this is serious because I see more and more players who don't learn and still do bad things like not mafia is an example of lurking it up all game long and not caring.

I didn't answer these before because I honestly don't understand your point with either of them.

1. Taking ascetic and then giving the shortest answers possible to questions will likely get you lynched sooner or later. We were talking about Aronis, who took ascetic and then showed no signs of wanting to help town. I would have pointed it out about others, but it didn't apply to them.

2. Why is it relevant to this game whether I've seen people change up their playstyles, improve or produce standout performances? I think I've improved since I started. I think people can improve if they know what they do wrong. Yeah, there are lurkers and active lurkers; there are also GREAT players out there who improve all the time. Copper, for example, did something I've never seen before and basically won the game for scum just recently (game available on request). I really hope I've improved and learned from mistakes made in the past. I just don't get how your general pessimistic attitude toward Mafiascum players has anything to do with the specific case here.

What do YOU think should be done with an outed ascetic who can't be cleared by investigation and doesn't look like he wants to help town? I'd be really interested to know. Should we wait til LYLO to decide about that?

[Bookitty]

I had to look back at the votecount. No, I'm not especially townreading Flubbernugget or Reck; Flubber seems a lot more engaged than I've seen him as town (no scum meta on him) and Reck simply hasn't posted enough relevant content to know.

[Bookitty]

@Farside: It is a role he chose. It is not a randomly assigned role. It's a role he chose EARLY.

My questions to Aronis are two-pronged, not just one as you're trying to imply.

His CHOICE of role is such that he should expect to come under suspicion for it, especially given his own stated reasoning behind choosing it. Choosing ascetic precludes any investigation to clear himself. It's a role that can't be allowed to go to LYLO. I think anyone with any experience with ascetic would know that it would be a role with an expiration date.

The part you're ignoring or dismissing is that he's not being helpful to town. He's not. You don't even have him as a townread. You said you don't have experience of his scum game. Yet you're making the meta defence to end all meta defences on his behalf, in essence saying that he always plays like that. You don't KNOW that. If he DOES play like that all the time, though, he's unhelpful to town. His role is not helpful to town. He's doing nothing to help himself and you're doing all the heavy lifting. I would expect this level of defence if he was your mason buddy; we know he's not, though. You don't even think he's town.

I don't see scum-Farside making this defence for scum-Aronis, though. It's more likely to me that scum-Farside would make this concerted defence of town-Aronis or possible SK-Aronis to try to drum up some towncred.

I know you think that asking questions without a real reason is scummy. So you should know I'd spot that right away.

VOTE: Farside

[Bookitty]

1). The wagon on aronis went quickly
2) you stated you were not town reading everyone on the wagon but still pushing the wagon
3) you attacked aronis role prove above
4) I don't do indepth meta research, you know this from our previous game.

1. The wagon stalled at four. I never joined it. I questioned him to find out what he was thinking; this is what you objected to from me. Should I not have questioned him? What was wrong with that, exactly?

2. I'm not scumreading them either. I feel a bit hinky about Flubber and Reck isn't posting content; I don't have reads there. The other two I have as town so far.

3. Of course I attacked his role. YOU semi-attacked Marquis's role by complaining that a) I was feeding him reasons for choosing it (proven false) and b) pointing out how it's useful to scum. His role choice is part of reading someone in THIS game. Why are you trying to pretend it's not?

4. You are using NOTHING but meta to defend Aronis so this is completely disingenuous. Talking about what you've seen in previous games IS meta, so stop pretending you don't use it. The only other argument you have boils down to "You're picking on him for choosing the role he chose! OMG, the horror of it."

I'm not wild about the questions you've asked the mod, either. Your questions about discussions before the game looks like nothing but an excuse made for Aronis, who is still not a townread for you, right? And the question about stealing your role is nonsensical too -- if Pine DID steal your role, something I seriously doubt would happen given the roles in this game, you'd have his. It's a swap, remember?

This is not town Farside as I know her. What did you do with her?

[Bookitty]

What 180 degree read?

I'd really like that explained, too.

He's scummy as hell. Your defending him in the way you have makes me think he must be town; otherwise your behaviour is completely inexplicable.

Could you define meta for me, please? Because I don't think it means what you think it means. Not that I know what you think it means from your postings here.

[Bookitty]

i think the farside wagon is well-intentioned (from boo) but inaccurate

Talk to me about this, please.

[Bookitty]

I have no meta on Aronis, Farside. I don't think I have ever played with him at all. I haven't researched it either.

Meta refers to past experience of a player regardless of how it was acquired. I have meta experience with you but I haven't gone through all your games to see if you act just the same way here as everywhere else. Personal meta exists and is a thing, but you seem to exclude that from consideration and claim it doesn't have anything to do with meta. Why are you doing that?

Most of your ire has been directed at me for daring to question Aronis to try to figure out his alignment. I think you're savvy enough to know that a non-helpful player with a negative utility role is going to get wagoned in a game with choice about roles and public knowledge of them. I don't understand why you're going out of your way to try to discredit me by throwing everything you can find at me, true or not.

If someone gets lynched as town repeatedly, they are acting scummy. If you've never seen his scumgame, as you have asserted, you don't know what that looks like. Marquis has a different view on Aronis meta than you do, but you haven't thrown a screaming fit at him. So, I'm going to ask you straight out:

Do you think Marquis is scum? Why or why not?
Who are the scum on Aronis's wagon, in your opinion?
Why is or was Pine scum?

[Bookitty]

1) I never stopped you from asking him questions at all.
2) okay so you are comfortable voting on the wagon then?
3) I used that as a counter point to you. It was wrong soooo...?
4) your whole issue is his role. If not can you link to me what else you find scummy?

Wow, are you actually reading the game, Farside? That's a mighty big post to have missed first time around, lady.

1. Your reaction to my relatively gentle questioning was a lot worse than your reaction to the people who were actually voting Aronis.
2. I'm voting where I want to be. Thanks, though.
3. It's of interest because it feels like you're not really keeping up with the game. Are you?
4. In my ISO, you will see posts directed to Aronis that point out his short answers, two word answers and lack of helpfulness. I can link them for you if reading my ISO is too much work, of course, but there are quite a few of them and I think it would be easier just to read the ISO.

[Bookitty]

i think the farside wagon is well-intentioned (from boo) but inaccurate

Talk to me about this, please.

farside's persistent defense of aronis while being a bit stubborn in the face of her points being picked apart leads me to think one of her/aronis is town, and atm i'm leaning her.

it is a bit weird for me to see. typically with farside town this is the level of engagement i'm used to though so yeah again, leaning town

Maybe. I don't get the one of these two is town; could both be town in your opinion?

I truly dislike Aronis stepping back and letting farside take the heat for this, though. I wouldn't do that as town; I don't know if he would or not.

[Bookitty]

^ ^ Finally, that is a farside I think I know.

UNVOTE:

@Farside: If I had taken ascetic, I would expect to have an expiration date. If you wouldn't, you need to tell me so, please.

If I had taken ascetic, I would be going out of my way to be valuable to town to prolong my life as long as possible. I have literally no other value in this game; I am only a liability in terms of my role. I would do my best to provide value even if I was only here for one day.

Think about the role ascetic. Now think about how Aronis is playing. He's horribly not helpful to town, to the extent that when I tried to think of why town-Aronis would panic and switch his role and then asked him about it, he said "Just depends." He's providing negative value to town in terms of his role regardless of his alignment and then he's acting like he's doing us a favour by providing any information or insights. That's two reasons, not one.

What good is he, Farside? If he can't be read, can't be investigated and plays like this and can't change and grow and improve, why would we keep him around over literally anyone else? These are serious questions for you.

[Bookitty]

Serious question for you, boo. Why focus in on a player you won't be able to read to the exclusion of others?

I've focused on Farside too and I feel mildly confident about my ability to read her. I'm really only capable of looking at one person in-depth at a time; I think I've been pretty open about my reads and opinions as I derive them.

[Bookitty]

@Aronis:

I find it funny that you feel like you "got stuck with the 2nd pick" like it was horrible for you to have so many choices to pick from.

Basically, I see two ways to look at picking your role here if you're town. You either pick a role you think will be helpful for town or you pick a role to keep it away from scum.

Roleblocker would be awesomely helpful for town. Roleblocking people who are suspected of being scum, especially later on in the game, can stop nightkills and save lives. You said you like roleblocker, so picking that as town would make a lot of sense to me.

Ascetic is fuck-all use to town. It puts a giant target on the person who picks it unless they make themselves obvtown. Even then, they are much more likely to be lynched because there is no other way to determine their alignment and because they provide no positive utility for town. It's actually something i would have preferred to see in scum hands and that I expected to be one of the last things picked. Instead, it was the second role picked.

By picking Ascetic as either alignment, you took on an added responsibility for your team. As town, an Ascetic must work hard to provide as much information as possible before he or she is lynched. That lynch is nearly inevitable in my experience. As scum, Ascetics must also act as town as possible to stave off their lynch and make up for their lack of usefulness to the town.

Like a vanilla townie, you have your vote and your voice. Also like a vanilla townie, you're going to be considered the most expendable member of either team. If you didn't know this when you made your choice of role, you surely must have noticed it by now. You're likely to be voted out before any power role unless there's a clear certainty that that power role is scum or you can prove your value and worth to town in other ways. Your lynch is far from a foregone conclusion unless you make it that way by serving up nothing but antagonism and answers that feel like they're being dragged out of you.

No, Farside didn't have to defend you. I'm not sure why she did. You certainly didn't provide her with much to work with and I sort of think it's some kind of misplaced empathy for someone she has seen mislynched repeatedly. (I could be wrong here.) But I would expect at least some degree of support for her or appreciation for her efforts, which were much more effective than your own quite honestly. Neither of these were evident in your responses; instead you provided more antagonism and no real content yet again. I don't even know what you think Farside's alignment is; that's how little I have to read you on.

I get that you're frustrated about the situation. I think you should have expected it, myself, but if you didn't then it's got to be pretty horrid. I'm still telling my mom you said fuck off, though.

In other news, Antihero needs to weigh in soon because his future is directly related to whomever is voted off today. I would expect him to be more interested for that reason alone.

[Bookitty]

Fine, Aronis. I can't make you do anything, and if you can't or won't show that you're town then there is literally nothing I can do for you.

@Farside: At this point I'm kind of okay with joining the Aronis wagon, just to let you know.

I have DeasVail as pretty strong town. Marquis too; he stepped in between Farside and me when I think that scum would have happily stayed silent. (Yeah, I'm reading Farside as town now; it's not my strongest ever townread on her but I'd consider it pretty good if it was on someone other than her.)

I don't like much of what Grib is serving up. I didn't like the post popping in to tell us he had nothing he wanted to comment on and then his follow-up was nothing to write home about either. At the point that he liked the wagon on me, said wagon consisted of one vote. If he liked it, why didn't he

put a ring on

join it?

Pine is missing in action, which is really problematic for me given that I had a mild town-read on him early based primarily on his identification of me as town. He's active elsewhere on the site while ignoring this game. That's never a good sign imo.

I want to see what Antihero comes in with assuming he does.

[Bookitty]

I think it's pretty easy to get on my good side early on; I start with a default that everyone in the game is town and move them down from that, which is different than most people but seems to work okay for me.

Strong buddying without a correlating strong reason to read me as town doesn't usually work. I'm as vulnerable to OMGUS and OMGUR as anyone else, though.

Weak reason = mild townread. It's dissolving with his avoidance of this game.

[Bookitty]

OK, but have you played with pine before? Trying to figure out if hes capable of manipulating you or not

Not that I recall unless it was in the way-way-back days. But since I'm not currently townreading him, I'm not sure why it's such a crazy important concern right now anyway.

If I had played with him before and he had successfully manipulated me, what would that indicate for you in terms of this game, please, Jake?

[Bookitty]

Oh, okay. Carry on.

Yeah, he could have been manipulating me. I don't know him so well, though, and the timing of it would have been odd for that.

[Bookitty]

That's a really weak reason and I highly doubt you have an accurate read on me after, what, three posts?

Don't you KNOW if he has an accurate read on you? You know your alignment, right?

[Bookitty]

People do use "highly doubt" synonymously with "know for a fact."

This is certainly not true. They are opposites.

[Bookitty]

More to the point, what you wrote sounds very much like a complaint that Antihero can't possibly know you're scum yet.

[Bookitty]

People do use "highly doubt" synonymously with "know for a fact."

This is certainly not true. They are opposites.

Really? I do it all the time.

I highly doubt that you do that all the time.
I know for a fact that you do that all the time.

Do you think these two sentences mean the same thing?

I think they are opposites.

To me, you look like scum caught for the wrong reasons, but I'm biased because I thought you were scummy before.

Why didn't you join my one-person wagon when you approved of it? Why bother to approve of it if it's not even worth moving an RVS vote?

[Bookitty]

I'm working on breaking strategies, I'll let you know if one exists. In the meantime, what's your read on Farside/Boo/Aronis? Why are you voting Pine? Who else is worth voting in your opinion?

Oh, so apparently I'm not invisible. Neat.

Town, scum, and null-ish. These are leans. A lot of Aronis' responses to the pressure on him are pretty clipped and I don't know how to feel about it.

Pine was RVS and I don't care enough to move my vote.

I approve of the Bookitty wagon.

You weren't asked that. You were asked for a read on Farside/Boo/Aronis. Your commentary about the wagon (does one vote even constitute a wagon?) was volunteered.

If you approve of it, and your current vote is RVS, why keep a vote on Pine who actually DID have a wagon instead of choosing to join the wagon you pointed out you approved of?

[Bookitty]

Hey Bookitty I see you not voting for Aronis anymore

Dude, I never voted for Aronis. I was trying to get a read out of him.

[Bookitty]

Following your logic I'm missing why you're not voting for him then.

Like you're saying you have no read on him but why doesn't "pro scum role" + "nothing townie" = scum ??

I imagine it does. A lot of people are saying he always plays like that, though, and I was trying to get a read for myself.

I still think we have plenty of time in the day to look at a lot of different people. I'm not especially interested in just flopping my vote on the largest wagon given that I have to make a decision tonight and I need more information to do that wisely.

Do you realise this is the most proactive I've ever seen you play, Flubber? What's up with that?

[Bookitty]

Do you want my reasoning or do you want to continue asking Antihero what he thinks about that?

[Bookitty]

Edit me out then! Sorry I ninja'd you.

[Bookitty]

I expended all my evil to get this truly awesome Dalmatian coat. Remind me to tell you the story sometime.

Nah, in seriousness, I play Mafia for fun. Farside can attest that I get aggressive sometimes but I mostly just want to have fun with people I like. Sometimes I like them so much that I accidentally stab them to death at night, though. That can be embarrassing.

[Bookitty]

[Bookitty]

Let me know if you want an explanation for why I started townreading Farside, Flubber. I don't really want to interfere with whatever you're doing with Anti, though.

[Bookitty]

I'm okay with an Aronis lynch at this point because I did everything I could think of to get him to post content and help town, including pressuring him heavily and then leaving him alone as per his request. I'm not sure he's scum. I just know that he's unhelpful and unreadable and that he can't be cleared through investigation, so we're going to have to lynch him sooner or later anyway. That doesn't have to be today though.

I support the Grib wagon for reasons I've already given. I don't see a reason that he would keep his RVS vote on Pine while saying that he supports my wagon. It's like he doesn't want to be on my wagon himself but he'd like to see it progress a little further. Just not with HIM on it. But everyone else, Grib says it's okay. That seems pretty duplicitous to me. If you don't care enough to move your RVS vote, then your support is pretty meaningless.

VOTE: Grib

I have a moderate townread on Farside. Waiting to hear more from Pine.

[Bookitty]

Okay. I have a selfish reason for wanting to lynch Aronis. I can't investigate him. All my other scumreads (and I'm playing most of those fairly close to the vest for a reason) I have a shot at catching. Not him.

I don't want the day to end yet because I need a lot more interaction with people. Voting Aronis now makes it less likely I choose right tonight.

I'm also considering having everyone who is willing to do so tell me three names they think are the most likely scum and working from that list. In that case, I'll happily lynch Aronis whenever.

What do you think of Grib, Farside?

[Bookitty]

we should commit to the aronis lynch sooner rather than later

I'm not moving

Who are your top three scumreads, please?

Same question for everyone. If you're set to lynch Aronis sooner rather than later, then I need your help.

[Bookitty]

The scum is just likely to use whichever member is not on anyone's lists.

I was sort of hoping that we'd be more accurate than that. But even that gives me information that can be used effectively, if you think about it.

[Bookitty]

Boo's posts feel really self-motivated (fake edit: confirmed by her) and her push on Aronis feels like it's waaay more focused on his role than his actual gameplay.

I freely confess that it's to the advantage of my role to eliminate a player that can't be read. I have done my best to get a read from Aronis. I haven't voted him and I feel like I've given him every possible chance and encouragement to play his role so that he could be read. We have competing meta reads on him and I have no personal experience there. From my perspective, Aronis could do the night kill every night and I have zero chance to see it, so if he's scum he could make my role useless. His is the only role that could do that, so I really really wanted to get some kind of definite read on him. I failed.

I want my role to be used effectively and not to have been a waste. I feel like I have a limited shelf-life anyway because of that role, just like Aronis, so I feel urgency to try to figure things out and make the most of the time I have. As Jingle points out, it's possible that town will figure it all out without my help. That would be great, but I'd like to feel I DID help in some way. I am unlikely to be around for the late game given my role. To me, it's important to do what I can now.

[Bookitty]

1. Bookitty, can you talk me through the thought process leading to your unvote of Farside?
2. I also worry that while you are considering the 'why would town act like this?' question when it comes to Aronis, you're not considering the 'why would scum act like this?' one.

1. I was suspicious of Farside because she was throwing out suspicion on me without ever engaging me. Same with Pine. She showed no curiosity regarding the reasoning nor alignment of the people she was suspecting. She defended Aronis pretty fiercely without having a townread on him. It all wasn't adding up, plus I would think Farside would know why I was pushing the top wagon without calling for more votes on him nor voting him myself. (Hint: I wanted to figure out his alignment for myself for my own role-related reasons and not just go with the flow and lynch the first viable target. I also wanted to get reactions from other people to develop reads there.) She knows my role; everyone does. She wasn't working to get a better read on Aronis herself. She was just attacking my questioning.

The posts just above the one that I unvoted in was the first one that showed me any sign of the

curious

and intelligent scumhunter that I expect from Farside. I unvoted her because of that. In my experience, if you don't at all recognise the playstyle of a person you have pretty extensive personal meta with, it's because they are hiding a power role or they are scum. It couldn't be the first in this game. She's now back to a similar approach in defending Grib. I don't know just what to make of that.

2. There are two ways to look at a game like this in terms of hunting scum, especially on the first day. One is to try to scumhunt hard and find the people who are showing cogdis or weird motivation. I've tried to do that and to read really carefully because I am not an especially confident power role player. The other, though, is benefit-loss. The roles that cost us the least in terms of power if we are wrong are definitely more expendable. Roles that can potentially prove themselves and that will likely be early kills are going to be targets for scum in this very very open game. I wanted very badly to give Aronis the benefit of the doubt by using the first approach because I felt for him in flailing in the choice phase. He's still useless, hence the cost-benefit feels I have for him at this point.

[Bookitty]

Things to remember:

Bulletproof protection can be given away.
The bodyguard dies after his protection is used.

If a player is targeted by a kill while under Bulletproof Vest and Bodyguard protection, the Bodyguard takes the hit, not the Vest.
If a Bodyguard under Bulletproof Vest protection protects a player targeted by a kill, the Bodyguard's Vest takes the hit.

According to Post 2 roles resolve in this order:

Roleblocker - Jake's replacement
Gentleman Thief - Pine
Bulletproof vest - DeasVail
Bodyguard - Shiidaji
Insomniac self-watcher - Grib
Invictus kills player of choice on death - Farside
All kills - scum and SK
One-shot cop - Reck
Archivist - Bookitty
Coroner - Jingle

@Quilford:

If DeasVail elected to give his bulletproof vest to someone else, would that also resolve and protect the new person before kills went through?

Thank you!

[Bookitty]

@Antihero: Post something in here from your most commonly used alternate account when you have a chance, please. That will help.

[Bookitty]

Remember what I said about short answers? I expected more than "I'm townreading Grib" if you were responding to me. Why are you townreading Grib? Your role doesn't depend on keeping your reads and reasons close to the vest, so why are you?

[Bookitty]

My reasoning for voting Grib.

You weren't asked that. You were asked for a read on Farside/Boo/Aronis. Your commentary about the wagon (does one vote even constitute a wagon?) was volunteered.

If you approve of it, and your current vote is RVS, why keep a vote on Pine who actually DID have a wagon instead of choosing to join the wagon you pointed out you approved of?

My question to you comes after this and before these.

VOTE: Grib

Discuss.

I think grib is town

I do not. What has he done that makes you think he is town? Alternatively, why should I vote whoever you are voting?

I'm feeling all icky and confused about Grib. Had him as town, but the way he tries to reinforce how he's town in 249 feels possibly scummy. Again, I'm putting off a closer read until tomorrow.

Finally, your response to me.

I'm town reading grib.

Boo and jingle: why the scum read?

Scum read: pine, Jake, boo, aronis
In that order of scumminess.

Why would I assume that you were responding to me given the intervening posts, especially since you didn't even read my already given reasoning for my scum read on Boo? If I were one of your top scum reads really, wouldn't you be watching me like a hawk? Wouldn't you know what I'd said already?

Instead you asked me a question I'd already answered and gave no reasoning for your own townread on Grib. Calling someone a townread is a defense even if you give no reasons for it. You know that too.

[Bookitty]

Let me put it to you this way, Farside. Here's my assessment of the worst case scenario:

Day One:

13 alive.
Lynch town, 12 alive.

Night One:

Scum-kill, 11 alive.
SK-kill, 10 alive.

6-3-1 for town-scum-SK.

Day Two:

Lynch town, 9 alive.

Night Two:

Scum kill, 8 alive.
SK kill, 7 alive.

3-3-1 and town loses.

Where is your sense of urgency? Why aren't you actively reading and scumhunting now? Why are you content with reading people based on snarkiness, meta and other things that aren't really what I expect of you?

Your role demands that you guess right or IF you were the nightkill you cost us another townie and made the worst case scenario even more likely.

I made a typo in the previous post that you should be able to seize on to justify your scumread on me. It's just a typo, but having spotted it myself I pretty much expect you to catch it too if you're really scumhunting. I'm not getting the feeling that you are.

[Bookitty]

Yep, I see that. It was really early on. My question was a little more specific but it does cover the same territory so I'm good with that.

Given the fact that we can only count on two lynches this game if we don't lynch scum, I really want people to be more proactive and to post more without just accepting an Aronis lynch. If we lynch scum today, that makes the jobs of the roleblocker, one-shot cop and archivist (me) a lot easier since it narrows down who can perform the kill for the scumgroup. If we lynch the SK today, we're saving lives throughout the game.

Even if one or more of these slots is scum, they are pretty much on the spot to use their roles on behalf of town or be lynched for it anyway.

Reck, does the fact that two mislynches loses town the game make any difference in your motivation to scumhunt? We need you. I don't want you to call out your targets; I just want you to help us find scum while we still can.

[Bookitty]

On a related note, why is Aronis on your scumlist now, Farside? Do you think I'm scum with Aronis? What is your thought process there, please?

Why would scum want your role specifically? That was part of your suspicion of Pine if I recall correctly.

[Bookitty]

Thanks, DeasVail. I don't know if he's scum or not but I don't like the whole laid-back attitude people are taking without actually trying to engage him.

We have three days to figure this out a little better. We can do it if everyone helps. Please help.

[Bookitty]

@MOD:

Could you please prod Pine and Shiidaji?

[Bookitty]

Le sigh.

Also @MOD:

Could we get an extension pending replacements to allow them to get up to speed?

[Bookitty]

Calling someone a townread is a defense even if you give no reasons for it. You know that too.

[Bookitty]

I have said repeatedly that I don't have a read on him. I was trying to provoke HIM to post and give me a way to read him. I failed. You helped to derail my questioning yourself.

We have conflicting meta on Aronis. Marquis says he's off, you say he's the same as you expect. How did you derive a scumread on him now?

I'm trying to sort you because if you're town you're a great asset to us. But you're going out of your way to do things that I perceive as anti-town or unhelpful. These things are, in no particular order:

1. The two main wagons are on Aronis and Grib. You say you think Aronis, me and Jake are the scum. Yet your vote sits happily on Pine.
2. Attacking me for explaining Aronis's situation to him and trying to convince him to post so he could be read.
3. Focusing much of your attention on me when my role makes it unlikely I will be the lynch for today and when I could be of great use to town by using my role in a smart way.
4. Misrepresenting or ignoring my postings when you claim to think I'm scum; that's not how you act when you are town and you think you're on the track of scum.
5. Misreading me completely, something that if you are town I think you would not do so readily (this suspicion came up early and you've basically coasted on confbias since then if you are town or decided to stick with it if you are scum).

As to why I'm defending Aronis, I'm not. I have no read on him. I have said that repeatedly. I don't think we should put him on autolynch without actually having a discussion in which everyone participates. Why are you misrepping pretty much everything I say?

What you are saying about Aronis was true when I was questioning him. Why is it only an issue for you now?

[Bookitty]

You have no idea how much I want you to be town, Farside. I need your help and everyone's help to try to figure out how to use my role tonight.

If I make it through tonight I'll have something to report. I need to target carefully to optimise what could be the only chance I have to use my role. So please stop obstructing me and start helping me if you're town. You can throw this fit at me tomorrow if I'm still around. Today and tomorrow are all we might have.

[Bookitty]

I've got to start paying attention to post numbers

[Bookitty]

@Shiidaji:

Why I think DeasVail is town:

1. His role selection. If it had been a regular bulletproof, I wouldn't have this confidence. He chose a role that is a bulletproof vest, though, which can be passed on. Because of his role, he's unlikely to be a nightkill (which would be a bonus for scum trying to explain why they're still alive) but since it can be passed on, we can figure out his towniness based on his choice of recipient.

2. His first question was town-sided. I actually forgot this later on in the game (as witnessed by my asking the same question in different words) but he wanted to know if his passing on the vest worked to protect the recipient before kills were processed. It does.

3. His scumlist in Post 83 is pretty much where I landed too. I wasn't there yet; Reck actually is a pretty late arrival to my list. He chose a role that is important and yet he seems disinterested in finding out how best to use it. Why choose it, then? I still support protecting him, though, because if he's town he could help us.

4. His logic in Post 115 makes awesome sense to me. I wanted to verify for myself but if I had to sheep one post for being the most likely accurate, that would be it.

5. Post 151 is correct from my point of view too.

6. He is going to look at both me and Farside closer and I approve of this given that so much of the discussion has been between the two of us of late.

What do you think of Grib of late-replace-out fame, Shii?

[Bookitty]

It was the suddenness of the unvote that confused me. I mean, the way I imagine your thought process is that you were thinking Farside was scum and she kept posting like scum and this reinforced your view and then she makes one post that sounds like Farside-town and you unvote her? Is the post that Farside made something super unlikely to come from her if she's scum?

My experience with Farside can be a major asset to town IF she is town. As a result, my tipping scales weigh more in her favour than most. If I think there's like a 30 percent chance that she's town, I don't want to lynch her. I suppose it can best be described as a "benefit of the doubt" thing. She gets more of one from me.

I don't want to lynch the roleblocker on day one. We haven't actually heard from Victor since his entry post, have we?

@Shiidaji: I don't read that the same way you are doing because I did the math and we may not have Day Three or Day Four.

[Bookitty]

^^Fluffernutter.

[Bookitty]

Grib taunts me every time I read through the game, I feel compelled to put him into the null category because there are so many quotes that eat as me as something no scum would ever say, yet I can't find legit townreads for him either.

My first reason for reading Grib as scum came in Post 214. By his own statement, his vote on Pine was RVS and Pine had a wagon on him at that point. Town would unvote him if they had no reason to suspect him. He also said he approved of my wagon (of one vote, at that time) but didn't move his vote. One thing I try to look for is votes that run counter to expressed suspicions. If Pine was really RVS, I think he would have moved it to me then. Approval of a wagon trumps RVS every time in my book.

He then posts this to Antihero:

That's a really weak reason and I highly doubt you have an accurate read on me after, what, three posts?

He's actually using his lack of content posting as a reason that Antihero can't have derived an accurate read on him yet. To me, this just screamed, "You can't KNOW I'm scum from what I've posted so far! No fair!"

Grib is showing huge cogdis between what he himself is doing (keeping his vote on his RVS target) and what Antihero is doing (voting someone with what are weak reasons according to Grib). If it's okay for Grib to keep voting RVS, why is someone voting for a REASON no matter how weak so troubling to him?

His replace-out under pressure is also not screaming town to me given that it's not sitewide.

On a related note, Post 44 looks like buddying to me and if Grib flips scum I would think Farside more likely town as a result.

[Bookitty]

I have a big post planned and I keep getting interferenace from others.

I can do a short version but I think most won't listen or don't pay attention. Monday is a better day for me as long as I don't get called into work

Deadline is paused pending replacement of Grib, so you can take your time.

Out of game interference or in-game interference? If the latter, what do you mean?

[Bookitty]

I'm already going nuts curbing my raging desire to taste Reck's blood so I don't know how cool I am with not lynching another person because of their role, especially when I have no idea who else I'd want to lynch.

The thing about having all the roles known is that scum have to use them in ways that at least look pro-town. I can foresee this situation, though:

• Reck investigates someone who was suspected by no one and pronounces them town.
  When asked why he would do that, he displays his YOLO IDGAF attitude and says he wasn't reading the game.
  Sadly, I can see him doing that as either scum or town.

This makes me feel REALLY bad about Reck and his lack of contribution or interest in scumhunting this game.

I'm nervous about lynching a power role day one because they aren't being given a chance to use their power for town yet. If we're wrong, we're losing more than just a townie.

Could you have a look at Grib, please, DeasVail, and tell me what you think of him?

[Bookitty]

In other news, Antihero needs to weigh in soon because his future is directly related to whomever is voted off today. I would expect him to be more interested for that reason alone.

Yes, that's what I was thinking about there. That's a good point in favour of DeasVail's idea about Reck, too, though; I had actually forgotten that we don't lose the role if we lose the player. If we think Antihero is town (I am meh on him) then it's okay to lynch a power role.

[Bookitty]

This game is more a symptom of why I don't usually do large games anymore, because D1 is basically just me sitting around twiddling my thumbs and then if I live long enough something will kickstart my care-o-meter later on

This is not a large game.

[Bookitty]

@Reck: Please do. Worst case scenario, we have two lynches before we lose. We don't have unlimited time and your role could be critical to a town win if you use it correctly.

[Bookitty]

Boo, my position on grib is much the same as Shii's. I can see why people find him scummy, but there are posts that I have trouble seeing from scum. It's why I really want to see what his replacement is like.

We have time now. We're on pause until he's replaced and I hope very much that we can have some added time for the replacement to get up to speed. I will push for that when the replacement arrives.

That should not be construed as a reason for Reck to dump a vote and not participate. Reck, we need you. Please.

[Bookitty]

It's been a while since I've seen the Amished tell.

I've already explained my reasoning for offering my role to someone else. I thought about it, didn't think scum would want it and didn't mind giving it up for someone else if they were going to be stuck with something less cool. I'm not the world's most confident power role player anyway.

One trend I'm noting is that you're not really responding to my posts but rather making up things and then responding to them as if I said them. I said nothing about SK in Post 87. It's a weird misrep to say that I did when the quote is RIGHT THERE.

Another weird misrep:

I said: "I don't think people at the bottom of this list can really be judged based solely on the role they chose. Just my opinion, though."

You said: "Then, she says that only the people near the bottom of the list can't be judged for their role choice."

You do realize my quote is right there and it doesn't say what you say it says? I said people at the bottom didn't have as much choice. They can't be judged SOLELY on that, because they didn't have as much choice.

It's like if there's a choice of chocolate, vanilla or strawberry ice cream. I'll pick strawberry. You pick chocolate. We can't then point at the person stuck with vanilla and mock them.

I have said time and again that I don't have a read on Aronis. I have tried everything I can think of to derive one without just borrowing Marquis's meta or Farside's meta. Aronis had like four votes on him throughout the time I was voting him. How would my vote make more of an impression than my words at that point?

As for your other arguments, you need to do more than just ISO two players before you understand what was going on in the game.

[Bookitty]

For those who don't know it:

Amished Tell

[Bookitty]

Why would you ISO your own predecessor upon replacement into a game? What was your reasoning for this?

[Bookitty]

Looking at what your wagon said about you might make sense to me.

Looking at what your predecessor said is less useful, I think, if you are town. Reading the game and trying to get reads would be more useful than focusing in on Grib.

Basically, I wanted you all to know that I don't think any of you are scummy for voting this slot because my predecessor was definitely acting scummy.

How can you know this since you've only ISO'd two people and one of them was you?

[Bookitty]

Since you just finished reading the game, can you provide us with a list of reads please?

[Bookitty]

Boo: 1. how did I stop you from questioning aronis? You asked me a question and I responded is how the whole argument started from my prospective.

Arnois: I get the reason you are getting run up is crap in your book and the boo feelings, but doing nothing if your town doesn't help the game. 2. I had issues with boo pushing your role as a reason to lynch you knowing there is a backup in the game.

1. Essentially providing him with a defense reduced the need for him to come in and speak up on his own behalf. You were doing that before I asked you about it. He hasn't helped himself or town at all imo, though, so it's probably a moot point anyway.

2. Role has to be a factor in considering any lynch in this game. If we were in a regular game where roles were not known and Aronis got run up to L-1 and claimed cop, would you go ahead and lynch him? If you were a backup in the game and you knew you would get his role, you might.

What is your read on Antihero, please? Also, can you walk me through your reasoning in thinking that Pine-scum would steal your role?

[Bookitty]

We have less than three days left.

@MOD:

Pine hasn't posted in three days. Could you please try prodding him again?

[Bookitty]

• 
  

  @MOD:

  Pine hasn't posted in three days. Could you please try prodding him again?

  
  I prodded him after he hadn't posted for two days, and then I sent another PM a couple of hours ago reminding him that he had about 10 hours to post in-thread before I replaced him. Hopefully he'll return, but if he doesn't the deadline will again be paused while I look for a replacement.
  

Thank you, MOD!

[Bookitty]

That's not what I meant, it's the tone that matters not the implications.

I think it's null on its own. I have some warm and fuzzy feels for Victor, though, which make me feel like you're probably right.

[Bookitty]

Why doesn't Shiidaji's role figure into your read of him, Viomi? You're reading Victor as town based on his role; why not Shiidaji?

What are you basing your townread of Pine on, please?

[Bookitty]

@Viomi: I'm not sure what you want me to defend myself against? I argued with Farside, I tried to determine Aronis's alignment since I can't investigate him in any way. You said things about me that were not true and I pointed them out. The rest is your opinion, real or faked, and is pretty seriously skewed.

I am not particularly interested in defending myself against what I see as a crap case. If you are to be believed, you ISO'd two people -- your own slot and my slot. Amished tell aside, that argues that you were only looking at me and at no one else from the second you came into the game. You don't even know the roles of some of the people on whom you are giving reads. Why would I take up time addressing a post that looks manufactured and contrived to push an agenda from the start?

[Bookitty]

I have answered all of these questions already, with the possible exception of one.

My selfish reason for wanting a role I can't investigate out of the game is that I can't investigate it; hence, if it's scum, it can do the nightkill every night and my role is useless. I selfishly don't want my role to be useless. I'd like to feel I have some impact on a town win.

If you read through my ISO, you'll see that all your other questions have been answered proactively or were answered after I was asked. Slanting your questions to try to scumpaint me doesn't change the answers.

[Bookitty]

@Viomi: List your questions simply and succinctly and I'll put the quotes in. The way your post is structured, it's nearly impossible to answer without making a post that is far too long to expect anyone to read.

Slanting your questions in the way that you have been doing is probably not going to be too helpful, though. I think most players in this game can see through those kind of rhetorical tricks pretty easily.

[Bookitty]

1. Why did you want to get rid of the Archivist role?
2. Do you disagree that you contradicted yourself in the places I quoted, and why?
3. Do you still want an Aronis lynch?
4. Do you disagree that picking ascetic is a really dumb move for scum?
5. Do you think a scum lynch or a policy lynch is more helpful on D1 in this situation?

1.

I was hoping to take the Archivist role when it's my turn because otherwise I have no idea what to choose.

If someone else especially wants that, though, I'll try to figure something else out. Let me know, please.

I was mostly thinking that my role wouldn't make that much difference to my having fun in this game and it might make a bigger difference to someone else. That was pretty much my whole thought process there.

2. Presenting various possibilities that contradict each other does not in itself constitute contradicting oneself. If you want to link me up to post numbers that you think include contradictions, I'll look at it more closely.

3.

Fine, Aronis. I can't make you do anything, and if you can't or won't show that you're town then there is literally nothing I can do for you.

@Farside: At this point I'm kind of okay with joining the Aronis wagon, just to let you know.

4.

You say Aronis always plays this way as town or scum. (Well, you're sort of tentative, but that's what I'm getting from you.) By waffling on his role choice and then choosing one that by his own statements is

super useful for scum

, he's already put on a big sticker that says: Hi! My name is: Probscum. It's on him to show that he's worth more to town as an asset than as a settled question mark.

5.

I'm okay with an Aronis lynch at this point because I did everything I could think of to get him to post content and help town, including pressuring him heavily and then leaving him alone as per his request. I'm not sure he's scum. I just know that he's unhelpful and unreadable and that he can't be cleared through investigation, so we're going to have to lynch him sooner or later anyway. That doesn't have to be today though.

I support the Grib wagon for reasons I've already given. I don't see a reason that he would keep his RVS vote on Pine while saying that he supports my wagon. It's like he doesn't want to be on my wagon himself but he'd like to see it progress a little further. Just not with HIM on it. But everyone else, Grib says it's okay. That seems pretty duplicitous to me. If you don't care enough to move your RVS vote, then your support is pretty meaningless.

VOTE: Grib

This makes me giggle, though:

I still want to see your answers, Bookitty, but I can see my vote is doing nothing to

motivate me to give me your answers

at the moment.

In seriousness, I was asleep. It's a lame excuse, I know, but there you go.

[Bookitty]

@Viomi: 1. I didn't want to get rid of the Archivist role. I explained why I was okay with it. Obviously it was my first choice (actually, of all the roles). Some of the remaining roles, however, sucked (I think vengeful vanilliser is probably the worst one that was still left, and I think (I don't remember exactly) that that was what I was thinking of.) I don't care if you think it's lame.

2. I have read all your walls. I can't get into your head and somehow perceive what you are presenting as contradictions, though. I don't know Aronis's alignment. Presenting things from both perspectives of Aronis-town and Aronis-scum does not constitute a contradiction.

3. Why are you asking questions you don't care about the answers to?

4. Roleblocker would be still worse in terms of utility for scum. You obviously know this because you cleared someone based on that role selection.

5. I don't know if Aronis is scum. I didn't say he was "probably not scum" except when I thought Farside was WKing him. Independently, he's scummy and it's not just my opinion on that.

I put my vote on someone I thought most likely to be scum (Grib), not on someone I couldn't read (Aronis). What I'll settle for in a lynch and what I'll push for as a preferred lynch are not the same thing.

[Bookitty]

When people say they will move their votes to get a deadline lynch, do you find that scummy as well?

[Bookitty]

Happy birthday, DeasVail!

We have a little more than two days til deadline. I don't like that Viomi came into the game and ISO'd only her predecessor and me. I feel like this shows a premeditated agenda without real curiosity or interest in scumhunting from an unbiased point of view.

This push also doesn't make sense given that Viomi is now voting Anti, who would inherit my role if I were lynched.

To me, it looks like she doesn't want my role in the game at all.

[Bookitty]

I'm reading your thought process like this based on your actions so far:

1. Upon your arrival to the thread, you read your predecessor's ISO to see if you think he was scummy. You do, so you push immediately for the lynch of one of two investigative roles in the game.

2. No one really is on board with your plan, so your next move is to go for the universal backup role. Did you know he was the universal backup? It's hard to tell with your shock and surprise that he would inherit my role if I were lynched today.

If you think that I am the scummiest (something you've repeatedly said -- I comprised your entire scumteam, remember) then why would you want my investigative role given to the person you think is the second scummiest? Yet that's certainly the result that would occur if you had gotten your way, right?

[Bookitty]

@Farside: You are on fair warning; unless you are scum, you owe me cookies at the end of this game. I WILL COLLECT.

[Bookitty]

Now that I know we have a Universal Backup, the one thing making me apprehensive about lynching you is gone.

You get that this doesn't make sense? You were JUST voting the Universal Backup. That means you thought he was scum. So tomorrow you would be trying to lynch the investigative role yet again, right?

@Anyone: Is it important to anyone but Viomi that I keep answering every one of these accusations? I can continue if it's helping anyone, but I feel like I'm just helping her clutter the thread.

@Farside: Why did you think that scum-Pine was going to steal your role?

[Bookitty]

I know you don't like answering questions as you've shown, but that's okay.

Oh look, rhetorical questions you were getting mad at me for! I'm going to actually answer these though because unlike you, I like information!

None of my questions were rhetorical that I recall. I believe I have answered every one of your questions so far, but it looks to me as if there is no end in sight. Spamming the thread helps no one, so I'm done with this particular back-and-forth, Viomi.

[Bookitty]

You are the Archivist.

This means that along with your voice and your vote, you also possess the following special ability:

>>> Archives: Each Night you may nominate the current or a previous Night phase and a player.
You will be told who, if anyone, the nominated player targeted on the nominated Night phase.

I was surely assuming that I could see scum kills; otherwise, I don't think there's much of a point for town.

If I'm wrong I hope Quilford will tell us.

[Bookitty]

So you theoretically could see "X visited Y and Z" confirming them as scum?

As I understand my role, it works like this:

Tonight I will choose someone. I will see whoever they target for whatever they target them for.

Tomorrow night if I am still alive I can choose to look at someone else for tonight or for tomorrow night. It's my hope that we can decide who that target would be as a group and that we will be able to look at tonight again, getting two shots at tracking for the same night. That would be hugely useful for town imo.

So if I choose Player A tonight, I can share my results with town in the morning. We can decide who I will target for tomorrow night (let's call that person Player B) and I can look at tonight again to see who Player B targeted on the same night as I had already looked at Player A.

Makes sense?

[Bookitty]

@MOD:

Could you please give us an update on the current time left on deadline?

Thanks so much!

[Bookitty]

We've already discussed night actions quite a bit interspersed throughout the thread.

I think people pretty much know what to do. Discussing them outright is a sure way to reduce their effectiveness, though, given that everyone knows everyone else's role.

Don't you think?

[Bookitty]

<insert comment that indicates fear and/or admiration of DeasVail and/or Antihero>
<insert comment that is obviously buddying of Antihero and/or DeasVail>
<insert generic comment intended to look town>

In seriousness, congrats to both you guys. You're awesome.

[Bookitty]

@Marquis: <3 Congrats to you too!

Yours is definitely the scary one to me.

[Bookitty]

Grib was wagoned for being scummy. Viomi came in and announced that she too thought he was scummy. She ISOed herself (that's the Amished tell) and me only. Then she made a huge case against me that is pretty horribly slanted in Post 389. She hadn't even read the game at that point nor had she apparently done more than ISO those two slots. It felt to me like she came in with an agenda and tried to force everything to fit that agenda with no regard for the truth, context or anything else.

I normally unvote when a replacement comes in, but that pretty well convinced me not to do so.

To me the wagon hasn't felt really quick, but I think that's because I've been arguing with her for what seems like aeons now.

[Bookitty]

@Marquis:

I'm fine with an Aronis lynch (I'm sure I said that before). It's worth remembering that Antihero takes the role of the first person lynched, so he'd be the Ascetic then. Viomi has pushed for both my lynch and for Antihero's lynch; if we're going to keep her and her extreme-wall angry posting around, I think I would actually prefer to be the lynch myself and to give my role to Antihero than to have him be an investigation-proof role that she would then tunnel on in the way she's demonstrated so far.

@MOD:

If I am lynched, will Antihero be able to use my role tonight? Also, if Aronis is lynched, will Antihero be the Ascetic tonight?

Back to Marquis:

I think Viomi is the scummiest. I don't see a reason why town would come into the game, tunnel on one player from the start, misrep what I said, make up reasons why I said things and generally behave in the ways she has behaved. I don't know why she's come into the game with this agenda (I was not the only vote on Grib when she entered the game, but I was the only one who made a case on him I think -- a case with which she claims to agree) but at this point I honestly don't care.

@Farside:

I have asked you this repeatedly. Why did you think Pine would steal your role if he were scum? You understand that your role only works if you die, right? Why would scum want your role especially? It's completely useless for the SK and only creates a one-for-one trade for scum, so why would you think scum would want it?

If you are town, you have already said you will target me for the kill tonight if you are killed. This is just as bad as Viomi wanting to know what the night actions will be. You've just told scum that if they want to take me out (or take out one of our protective roles, of which we have but two) then all they have to do is target you. Best case scenario, you take out me alone and deprive town of one of its power roles. Worst case, you take out a bodyguard while the SK targets me and we lose three potential town for the price of one. WHY would you say who you would target in this way?

I don't want the protectives to say who they will protect. I don't want the roleblocker to say who he's going to roleblock. I'm sure as hell not telling anyone who I'm targeting and I don't think Reck should either. So why are you so eager to volunteer this information to help scum decide what to do?

[Bookitty]

your reasons are self-fulfilling and a cop out. who are your other scumreads.

You understand why there's no way I'm going to tell you that based on my role, right?

[Bookitty]

Oh. Gotcha.

[Bookitty]

@boo: I'm in a sense a vig. I shot people and since I'm scum reading pine spot and he's scum wouldn't bennifit him to steal my role before I shot to save himself or any scum buddy?

Wouldn't it be easier just to ignore your slot rather than openly stealing your role, arousing suspicions and giving you the Gentleman Thief role which you could then use on anyone else, including supposed scumbuddies? You realise we'll know when that role is used, right?

[Bookitty]

If we lynch Bookitty today, Universal Backup will get their investigate role, leaving us much better off.

I want this noted. I'm actually okay with this if that's how people want to go, but Antihero is another scumread of Viomi's and when I flip town, I surmise that she's going to try to get the role lynched yet again. If she really believed that both I and Antihero were scum, then I don't believe she'd be pushing to give a power role to another so-called scum.

Antihero, do you want my role? My flip or her lynch may be the only way to stop the incessant spamming about how I'm such obvscum. I'm good either way.

[Bookitty]

Oh, no you don't. You wanted me lynched above all others, right? Let's do that, then. When I flip town people will stop listening to you and Antihero will have a shot at actually using the role. You don't get to lynch [player to be named later] and continue this litany of complaints against me. I suspect Antihero will use the role better than I could anyway, so let's go with your plan and give my role to him. I'm happy to go 1v1 with you.

[Bookitty]

Everyone up for that? Antihero gets my role and uses it tonight. Anti, you okay with that?

[Bookitty]

Also, Farside, if you now say you are going to shoot Antihero I'm going to bite you.

[Bookitty]

Yes, Antihero will be able to use it tonight from what I remember.

@MOD:

If I am lynched and Anti gets my role, he can use it tonight, right? I asked this before but I don't think I got an answer yet.

I don't actually need towncred since I'm town. The advantages of this role-swap include:

1. I doubt Viomi will be doing walls about me once I flip town. This will reduce the amount of reading everyone has to do to stay current with the game and will be of benefit to town.
2. I think Anti is probably town. Regardless, he will have to use his powers for good or answer to the town. I am sure he's more proficient than I am and will do a better job than I could do.
3. If I am lynched day one and my role goes to Anti, then we lost what was essentially a vanilla townie while keeping the role, which is the important thing here. We're not just recycling a useless role back into town.

These are significant advantages and ones that can't be derived in other ways imo.

Ninja'd: I said I'd go 1V1. What did you think that meant, Viomi? You or me, right? Either way, I'm fine.

[Bookitty]

And yes, to be clear: I think your tunneling on me has not been beneficial for town. I think it's spammed up the thread and led to reduced interest in what is in fact a pretty cool and fun game. I was willing to give up my role in pre-game to ensure that people were having fun; I'm sure as heck not going to hang on to it when one player has said they plan to kill me tonight if they're targeted (thus making sure they're targeted, imo) and another is clearly going to tunnel me til death. I think it's better in Anti's hands at this point.

[Bookitty]

Then you should agree with my plan, right, since you think I'm scum?

Anti is much more proficient and capable than I am. My role requires some fancy footwork and I think he would manage it better. He also won't have to deal with your repeated questions about things already answered that take up time and discourage other people from participating and being read. My townflip will put a stop to that.

The "lazy" comment made me giggle given my post count.

[Bookitty]

I'm waiting to hear from Mr. Quilford and from Anti. I won't be upset at anyone who votes me; I really do think it's the best thing for town at this point. The role is awesome. I want to see it used to best effect and with Farside's expressed intent and Viomi's tunneling, I'm pretty sure I'm not the person that can use it that way.

I'm not responding to Viomi any more on this. I encourage you to follow this plan and will <3 you if you do.

[Bookitty]

NO.

I appeal to town to not allow this particular thing to happen. Think about why Viomi would want to shift the lynch away from her claimed most probable scum (me) after fighting for this lynch all day. Why on earth would she suggest a lynch on someone not me? Why would she suppose that I would use the role more effectively than Anti if she is so sure I am scum?

I called her bluff. She folded. I'm personally sure she's scum because only scum would panic like that when their target actually agreed to the 1v1. I was and am sincere; vote her or vote me. Don't let her sidetrack it onto someone else now because she's scared of what will happen with my flip. Don't let her have it both ways.

Do you want another day of the same shrieking arguments? I don't. Let's put a stop to it now one way or the other. Let Anti inherit my role. Please.

[Bookitty]

Awesome. Thank you, Quilford!

[Bookitty]

You guys know what to do. I'm tired and going to sleep.

Thanks in advance

[Bookitty]

Anti had one vote from Shiidaji. I had three at one point from Viomi, Farside and Aronis. It's interesting to me that my lynch was just fine until I suggested a 1v1. Then suddenly I wasn't a viable lynch anymore (I had asked about Anti being able to use the role tonight before this transpired, but you had shown no interest in that at that time) and we should lynch someone else.

When all the votes on me scatter as soon as I ask town to lynch me, something that has been your apparent goal since you replaced in, that is a pretty clear sign of panic. Why don't you want to see my flip? Why are you still voting Antihero when your way is clear to vote me? You know you have three people at least for mine. Why move to the smaller potential wagon now?

The argument that scum somehow "deserve" to get to stay in the game is silly, Aronis. But you know that.

[Bookitty]

@Farside: I don't intend this as an AtE. I think it's highly practical given the things that have occurred over the past few days.

Look at it like this.

You've said that you want to target me as your kill if you are the nightkill. Since I am not scum, this means that scum can do this:

Kill you at night.
You kill me.
Either I'm not protected and you take me out (profit for scum) or I am and you take out a protective role or a 1-shot bulletproof vest.
This is multiball; SK and groupscum.
So you've presented scum with an attractive option that allows them to take out you AND a protective or me. Since I can investigate the SK as well, something Reck can't do, that also makes me a better target for the SK. You've ensured that scum will get at least one kill (you) and still have a shot to take out an investigative/protective or to expend the Bulletproof Vest.

Viomi has spent most of the time since her replacement throwing random accusations at me. At first I was trying to answer them (though most of them had already been answered and she felt I "gave bad answers") but eventually I felt like this process was spamming the thread to no good purpose. We were just rehashing the same points over and over with occasional "Don't avoid my questions!" interjections from Viomi. It's not helpful to town. I think it's ruining the game for others (they can correct me if I'm wrong).

I feel like you're not really following the game, Farside. Your read on me is flatly wrong and you haven't revisited it at all that I can see since you first decided I wasn't a townread in Post 158. You haven't even really thought about your own role imo if you think that scum would want to steal your role.

If I give my role to Antihero, then scum don't have this awesome option to shoot you and take away a protective or a power role at the same time. They now have to be worried that you'll actually hit scum.

It's the best option, not because I was under serious suspicion (I don't feel like I was) but because it will take away the giant 1v1 arguments for tomorrow (Viomi's lynch would also do that, imo) and will give Anti a fair shot to use the role without costing us multiple townies because of you. The second part won't change whether Viomi is lynched or not.

As should be clear, I think you're town, Farside, but you're really unhelpful and disengaged town at the moment. Just go ahead and vote me, please.

[Bookitty]

Also, with only 16 hours left until deadline hits, you need to make your case on me now, not later.

Thank you.

[Bookitty]

Please stop saying who you will target, Farside. -headdesk-

If all of those are town, you just once again told scum "Killing me will get you two townies!"

Since I know I'm town and I think BBMolla is probably town too, if Aronis is town you're still giving them exactly the info they want.

PLEASE stop.

In other news, you have 16 hours. Don't make yourself sick posting in the car. I'll be around.

[Bookitty]

You and Shiidaji have been the only ones voting Anti for ages.

Both Aronis and Farside have had their votes on me at various times during the day.

You control your own vote.

Two votes on Anti is not a bigger wagon than three votes on me. Your vote aside, two votes on me (Farside and Aronis) is more than one vote (Shiidaji) on Anti. 2>1. 3>2. It's simple math. So why flee to the other wagon when you had votes you could call on for me that you didn't have lined up for Anti?

Math told me your story doesn't hold water.

[Bookitty]

I cannot hammer because I'm already on the wagon.

We're dependent on DeasVail, Anti, BBMolla, Marquis, Aronis or Farside, I think. Oh, and Shiidaji.

[Bookitty]

xi) A lynch occurs when a player receives greater than 50% of all votes.
xii) A no lynch occurs when greater than or equal to 50% of all votes are placed in favour.

Please stop trying to mislead people.

[Bookitty]

Subject: Open 408 - Player Flavor - GAME OVER - NOOB MOD - ALL WIN

Game Rules:

10. A simple majority of all living players must agree on one person (via voting) for a Lynch to occur (simple majority = ½ # of living players +1, rounded down). If no one has a simple majority of votes at deadline a No Lynch will occur.

Every mod does it differently? You did it exactly the same way.

[Bookitty]

Mmmm hmmm.

You forgot all you ever knew about how Mafia worked, then?

[Bookitty]

No, just some details such as that one (I've never seen a no lynch reached that way so)

Again, this is just not true.

Subject: Open 398 - Alternating 9p- End of game

The deadline expired 3 hours ago so there is no lynch. (Sorry busy)

You have 72 hours to send in Night actions

You were scum in that game.

[Bookitty]

Can you link me to a completed game of yours in which the highest vote getter was lynched automatically at deadline and no lynch was not possible?

Thank you.

[Bookitty]

I did a little survey myself of Viomi's recent completed games. I have yet to find one in which a plurality lynch was used. All that I have looked at so far have used a majority lynch/no lynch model. So I'm not sure where she's deriving her "all mods do it differently" stance, since that isn't supported by her own ruleset choice as a mod nor by her apparent experiences here.

Please hammer.

[Bookitty]

Have you read Viomi's recent posts, Marquis?

Do you have meta for her?

[Bookitty]

Given that we have nine hours before deadline, I don't think an Aronis lynch is feasible anyway. I'm more confident where I am.

I'd really prefer not to no-lynch though

[Bookitty]

@Farside: Lynching Aronis results in Anti becoming investigation and tracking immune. Viomi was already pushing that lynch, so that would only add fuel to the fire there.

I can't be around at deadline as far as I know right now. I will try, but I can't promise that

I've been pretty careful not to give my reads so as not to tip my hand to scum, Farside. I wish you had done the same, because I believe at this point you have set yourself up to be the most beneficial nightkill for scum.

Viomi suggested that she would be a deadline plurality lynch even without a hammer. Victor saw it too; I wasn't alone in this. I looked at her games and found not even one example of that being the case. She even modded a game in which the ruleset said that if there wasn't a majority lynch there was no lynch. Viomi said she had never seen a No Lynch occur when there wasn't a majority lynch. I posted the proof that this was not so, either.

Why would she propose something that has not occurred in any of her games that I can find (and she hasn't provided even one example either)? If it was so innocuous, why would Victor notice it immediately too?

I thought Aronis was likely scum. You said no for meta reasons. I haven't been able to get a read on him even after doing a minor meta dive. You consider him scum now because he hasn't posted content which... he hadn't done before either!

I think Viomi is scum. You are saying no because ... why? You wouldn't give this kind of leeway to ANYONE else. Is it just because I think she's scum? Are you reading past that to actually see what she's said?

If you are town, then you are so confbiased that you are being absolutely useless to town.

[Bookitty]

I'd be fine flashwagoning Aronis to get rid of the Ascetic since I can't investigate him.

But I'm not going to do it unless there's a wagon already because I'll be around for deadline.

The issue is that Anti will inherit the role, creating another situation in which someone else can't be investigated nor tracked. We're trading one Ascetic for another.

[Bookitty]

Sadly, none of them are as bad as you so I probably won't get hammered... I'll just get auto-lynched by deadline.

You're seriously telling me you don't understand why a scum at L-1 would say that? You see no advantage for scum in making town think that they will be auto-lynched anyway without any need for town to check in later?

-headdesk-

[Bookitty]

Then vote me, please, Farside. It's preferable to an Aronis lynch that just sticks Anti with the same role and the same issues tomorrow. At least Anti hasn't been put on your hit list yet so you'll have to find someone else to put in that third slot (and PLEASE for the love of GOD don't tell everyone who that is) and maybe, just by accident, you'll hit scum.

[Bookitty]

I think people will see the logic of my plan, especially if the alternative is a no-lynch. I don't need them to think I'm scum. I need them to realise that Anti will be more effective in this role than I can be given your intended use of your role and the walls of text we've already endured.

I think Aronis is the most likely lynch for tomorrow pending investigative results. By saving that lynch for tomorrow, we can also avoid keeping the role around.

I see no way short of my flip that I can convince you that I am town. It feels to me as if you are determined to be in opposition to anything I say. I'm resigned to that at this point, but you don't have that issue with Anti so far as I know. Let's give the role to him and actually help town win.

If you think Viomi is town despite everything, that's on you at this point, not me.

[Bookitty]

I am telling you that for sure. I think Viomi is by far the scummiest, so much so that I was actually considering the idea that I was being deliberately trolled for some reason.

The only thing that actually came close to that level for me was Aronis saying that Boo is scum but she deserves to get to stay anyway. Puhlease.

[Bookitty]

Okay. I'm going to have to go for a while. I'll try to check back in periodically, but someone I know just got a LootCrate and extracted from me a promise to play SuperFight with him. I haven't played it before, so I don't know how long it will take.

I DON'T want to no-lynch. If you don't want to lynch Viomi, please consider my plan. I think it's much better than just switching which player has the Ascetic role myself. I can lend my vote to it later on if you guys are willing to do it. <3

[Bookitty]

Back for a sec (it's a fairly short game! Yay!).

@Farside: You say you think more about under the radar play as scum and you're surprised I don't.

1. Do you mean you're surprised I didn't play more under the radar here since you think I'm scum, or is this referring to something else? It's not clear.

2. Do you know why I have asked you not to tell who you would target with your power if you were the nightkill?

3. Do you know why I haven't been forthcoming with all my scumreads this game myself?

4. Do you know why I think it's bad that Viomi said this:

If I was scum, I would've self-hammered as soon as I hit L-1 to give you guys the least amount of time to talk about night actions.

given the nature of this game?

[Bookitty]

4. is bad because it's essentially fishing for information about night actions. Scum would want to know this very badly in this game. You've already told them yours. One major advantage of letting Anti take my role right now is that scum would have NO WAY of guessing his unless he's scum. I don't think he is.

[Bookitty]

I'm here.

I'm supposed to wait until last to claim results, I think. So I'm waiting. From my own perspective, though, I can claim anytime.

[Bookitty]

Please be joking.

[Bookitty]

God, I've never hoped so hard that I was being trolled.

[Bookitty]

I'm no good at trolling people, Anti.

I think you're awesome fun to play Mafia with and I stand by my comments that you'd have used my role better than I could.

The closest I can come to trolling you is:

So, did anyone target you last night, Anti? Neener neener!

[Bookitty]

i was left playing with myself

Is phrasing still a thing? No?

[Bookitty]

Troll Anti, he likes it!

[Bookitty]

Oh, please.

<3 Anti.

Okay, in seriousness, Reck, in case you're not trolling:

Yes, you should have used your role.
Do you have any reason to think you were targeted for the nightkill by scum, Reck?
There is an SK in this game. That's how Mafia could get shot.

Any more questions?

[Bookitty]

Just for Anti:

[Bookitty]

1. If I hypothetically got an innocent should I claim it?

2. Also keep in mind my investigations don't work on the Serial Killer.

3. Also shouldn't roleblocker just claim who they blocked? That's a guilty at this point... highly unlikely that mafia shot the Bulletproof.

1. Yes, you should.

2. Yes, I know. That's why I targeted who I targeted.

3. Victor will not be telling you who he blocked unless you're at least a 10th level necromancer.

The bulletproof is a bulletproof vest that I was sort of assuming that you had received since you're still alive. Otherwise Shiidaji would be dead, I think.

You didn't get a bulletproof vest? Going to check my PMs again, just a sec.

[Bookitty]

I did not get a bulletproof vest so I was not targeted for a kill last night. For sure.

[Bookitty]

I'm not seeing how that will help us.

If Shiidaji had blocked either Reck or me last night and the person he blocked had been targeted for the nightkill then we would have lost Shiidaji.

I didn't get the vest so unless Reck got it it went to someone else. By the rules we would know if the vest's power had been used up (and that we got it) so if one of us was targeted we would know it. I'm saying it's not me. DeasVail will be able to tell us more.

Victor was Mafia and he was obviously killed by the SK. Tracking who he roleblocked would just give us a conftown not-SK (if he had roleblocked the SK, he wouldn't have been killed). He wouldn't have blocked another Mafia member.

So what's the advantage of me tracking Victor for last night, please?

[Bookitty]

Well, DeasVail and Shiidaji are both alive, so we'll probably find out.

I think it's interesting that the Gentleman Thief didn't use his power last night. (We would have been notified in the thread if he had.)

[Bookitty]

You are a Serial Killer.

Therefore, you win the game if:

### you are the only player alive,
### or if nothing can prevent the above from happening.

You have the following factional abilities:

>>> Kill: Remove a player from the game each Night by naming them to the moderator.
>>>

One-Shot Bulletproof: You are guaranteed to survive a single successful kill attempt made on you.
You will be informed when this happens.

You may perform both factional and role-related abilities in the same Night.

Well, shame on me.

Yeah, DeasVail is right. Sorry about that. I completely forgot about the one-shot bulletproof for the SK.

[Bookitty]

No, you're right, Marquis. I had completely zoned out the bulletproof for the SK.

I think that scum can send both kill and roleblock on the same night. I'll look it up in a bit, but I think the rules say that the same person can do both.

[Bookitty]

Once all investigations have been flipped, I DO want a consensus on who I will investigate for last night. I want us all to decide together.

I think Marquis's plan is good so far as I can figure right now, but I don't feel like we have enough info to make that a final decision yet.

@Marquis: Okay.

If Victor roleblocked someone, we know it wasn't the SK, because the SK must have killed him.
Victor is dead. Whoever he roleblocked is still alive, because he didn't roleblock himself. He might not have roleblocked anyone.
If Victor in particular targeted the SK, then that's the best possible news because the SK is one-shot bulletproof and thus would have survived. We need to catch the SK.
If Victor targeted the vest, we need to know that because then we have another confirmed Not Mafia though not necessarily not SK.
Victor might not have been the one doing the nightkill. In that case, it could be totally pointless to track him at all.

There's the issues I can think of quickly. I'll be back in just a little while but for now I have to run.

[Bookitty]

@MOD

If I try to investigate a person who performs two actions, will I see both of their actions or just one?

[Bookitty]

Since Reck doesn't seem to want to give up information on what he did last night, do you want me to go ahead and give my investigation results?

[Bookitty]

Well, crap.

[Bookitty]

Why did you think you would live through another night, Reck, given that your role is one of only two useful investigatives in the game? I can see thinking you'd live through last night, but why would you think you'd live through tomorrow night too?

[Bookitty]

I didn't investigate Reck. I was hunting the serial killer or the least suspected member of the scumteam to try to get a guilty result.

I investigated Jingle and he didn't go anywhere. He's cleared of being the SK and he didn't perform the nightkill for scum. That's all I got. I'm sorry

I'll investigate whomever we agree upon tonight for last night.

Don't say who you're sleeping with tonight, please, Shii. Make them guess.

[Bookitty]

Regardless, we still have to decide who I'll track from yesterday. Marquis thinks it should be Victor; BBMolla has claimed the roleblock, I think.

I'm open to suggestions.

[Bookitty]

@Farside: I'm not scum. Beyond that, though, it honestly does not matter if you think that I am scum or not right now.

I have an investigative power role. I can use that role to investigate someone tonight and give us more information. I'm asking town to tell me who to target because that way it's not just dependent on my opinion. Lynching me yesterday would have been fine (Anti would have gotten my role). Lynching me tomorrow will be fine because I seriously doubt I'll live to give a third investigation anyway. But lynching me today is off the table unless you want to deprive town of the chance to track a player of their choosing tonight and hopefully get a result in the morning.

[Bookitty]

I don't understand why you were so certain you would live long enough to give your reads, Reck. Didn't you think you'd be a primary target last night? Don't you think you will be one tonight? Were you sure you would be protected?

[Bookitty]

Yes, but it doesn't make sense. You're an outed cop. Everyone knows you're the cop. That alone would make you a primary target, wouldn't it, even if you never posted at all?

It's further supported by the fact that you WERE the target. Only the sacrifice of a protective allowed you to live.

What's done is done, but I want to make sure you understand why you NEED to use your role tonight.

[Bookitty]

Depending on which of us Shii chooses to protect, sure. This is why I don't want Shii to say who he will protect; if scum have to guess, maybe we could both survive and give results.

You know you're not the only investigative, yes?

[Bookitty]

Okay, lining it out plainly so it's clear for everyone because I am thinking it's not.

I investigated Jingle last night. He didn't go anywhere.

Tonight I have another shot at investigating LAST NIGHT. That means we can look at someone else agreed upon by the town to see if they went anywhere. Scum can't change what already happened, so it's essentially two free looks at a single night. That's why it's important that the whole town weigh in on who is chosen for this second look.

Tomorrow I could give those results to town.

I think that Reck probably needs guidance from the town on who to target as well given his current level of engagement with the game.

One of us will surely live to tomorrow. I trust Shii and I think he knows what to do. At a minimum, though, we should make sure that there is at least one investigative result that helps town and we shouldn't allow any excuses regarding it tomorrow.

[Bookitty]

Looking at the likely suspects:

Cleared:

Shii
DeasVail
BBMolla (I can explain this if anyone needs it)

Already investigated:

Jingle (I have a really hard time thinking that they wouldn't have sent Jingle to do the nightkill if he were scum -- I think he was suspected by NOBODY except me and I never said so.)

So we have two scum and one SK in this group:

Marquis, the Encryptor
Aronis, the Ascetic
xRECKONERx, the One-Shot Cop
Bookitty, the Archivist
farside22, the Invictus
Antihero, the Insomniac former Universal Backup **
Flubbernugget, the Vengeful Vanilliser

We will lynch one of the five people who aren't me or Reck. We know that Reck was targeted by the scum last night (I guess it could be Shii, but I am not counting on that right now) so we know he wasn't scum.

I don't want Reck using his shot on me, because I expect I'll be an early night kill and if that happens it will be sort of wasted. My role isn't one shot and, if I don't die by night three, I will either have given town enough information to win or I would be the most likely lynch anyway. If you think it's worth it, that's okay, but I think it would be kind of a waste.

I can't investigate Aronis. So my pool consists of:

Farside
Antihero
Flubbernugget
Marquis

And would be narrowed down still more if we lynched within that pool.

If Aronis is the SK or a member of scum, we can't tell regardless. Barring unprecedented contribution and helpfulness, I'm good with this lynch for today.

I don't want to lynch anyone, though, until we get our marching orders regarding the investigations tonight.

EBWOP: Can you read over my logic above, Reck and everyone, and tell me what you think? If I've made any really stupid errors, please point them out to me. I would really appreciate it.

[Bookitty]

Okay. I will investigate someone else in that group then.

I want to wait to see what everyone wants; I'm committed to tracking the person of their choice for last night. (My track will be for Night One, not Night Two.)

I'm confident that Shii is town myself.

[Bookitty]

They have to kill both of us, Reck. The element of uncertainty arises from who Shii will protect.

I'm fine with you not revealing specifically who you will target (though I don't think it matters) but since I'm investigating for last night, they can't change what they did last night, so I want all the help I can get in figuring out the best target out of a fairly small pool.

[Bookitty]

what the fuck i'm town as shit that's a fucking waste no

???

No one has said they would target you yet. Why are you upset at being included in the general pool?

[Bookitty]

You just need to explain to them that it's really a very gentle procedure and they'll hardly feel a thing.

[Bookitty]

The pool that Reck and I are sharing (yes, I know he's a married man) includes both SK candidates and scum candidates. He's already divided up the labour for that pool and even said who he would most likely investigate.

Do you want me to investigate your actions last night, Marquis? Would it clear you of being the SK?

In a pool this small, a clear is almost as good as a guilty.

[Bookitty]

Oh, and another thing to keep in mind.

Reck is cleared of being scum. He's possibly an SK, but scum don't shoot scum.

DeasVail gave his bulletproof vest to Shiidaji. Shiidaji protected Reck and Reck was shot, using up the bulletproof vest. This is what I think happened. The other possibilities either require DeasVail to be scum with Shiidaji (I rule this out) or for scum to have targeted Shiidaji specifically (possible, but it rules out Shii scum AND DeasVail scum because 1. scum don't shoot scum and 2. scum don't waste a kill by giving someone they're shooting a bulletproof vest.). In these cases I think that Reck might be scum, but it seems vanishingly unlikely to me.

BBMolla is cleared of both. Scum targeted him with the roleblock, there was no counterclaim of being blocked and since he was blocked he could not have performed the SK kill on Victor.

I already investigated Jingle for last night.

The reason Reck and I are not in the pool is because we're doing the investigating. At least in my case, I expect to be dead very soon (though hopefully not tonight) and that will clear me enough. If I don't die, I'll keep investigating people and I'm sure that will lead to my untimely demise. Reck can only be the SK; he can't be scum. Left to my own devices I wouldn't investigate him because I'm not really getting SK vibes from him, but I'm no expert there.

So if the town wants me to investigate him, I will; once he's used his one-shot cop, he will effectively be vanilla townie and won't be a target anymore, anyway. The same will not be true of me. My role has a life expectancy and it's not a long one, so I would like to use my tracking ability where it will do the very most good.

[Bookitty]

The pool of investigative-potentials doesn't have anything to do with how scummy people have been. It is strictly based on who is cleared and who has already been investigated.

You have been cleared by role imo. (Other people may disagree, but I'm sure on it.) The people on the list haven't been cleared. *I* have not been cleared. Reck hasn't been cleared of being the SK.

The pool isn't a judgment of anyone. It's just a way to optimise our chances of winning this by hitting the most likely targets.

I really think the town should decide who we target anyway (not just me, but Reck too). Short of that, I want town to pick for me and I would like Reck to choose from among the candidates in the Pit of Despair.

[Bookitty]

I can be Serial Killer, but I can't be scum.

I think this is true as well.

I could be either. I'm not, but I'm not cleared of either one.

[Bookitty]

because bookitty

Yep. Pretty much.

[Bookitty]

I've already said why I don't think BBMolla can be scum of any flavour.

I'm betting dollars to doughnuts that Victor used his roleblock last night. BBMolla would be an ideal target for that given Farside's continuing expressed suspicion that he would take her role. So there's that.

BBMolla claimed that he was roleblocked. There has been no counterclaim. All roles are out there and known, so Victor would have to be roleblocking someone who looked reasonable to roleblock. While it's within the realm of possibility that Victor roleblocked someone else or no one at all, I'm not thinking it's likely.

If BBMolla was roleblocked by Victor, then he's not likely scum. Why would scum roleblock scum? He also can't be the SK, because he was roleblocked and the SK killed Victor.

So it's very unlikely to me that BBMolla is scum.

[Bookitty]

Boo, why exactly do you want to track last night and not tonight? I think that is a very poor choice.

A few reasons.

I chose you to target last night. I know that you didn't go anywhere last night. So that narrows down the potential targets by one for that night. The other actions claimed for last night narrows down the pool significantly.

I want town to help me figure out who to target. That can't happen if I do an investigation for tonight, for obvious reasons. If I investigate last night again, though, we can discuss and decide it to our heart's content and we can potentially derive better reads on people based on their reactions to various proposed investigations.

Reck's power will only work on groupscum. My power will work on either. Since people can't change their alignment, Reck is a threat to groupscum regardless of whether he calls his target or not; they can't CHANGE their alignment. Scum also can't change what they did last night, which gives all of us a voice in how this role is used.

Reck makes a good point that scum will know which of us to target based on what we choose; however, I'm expecting to be targeted for death anyway sooner or later. It's more important to use the role right while I can. I think deciding as a group who I will target derives SO many more connections for town than letting me play it close to the vest and choose the target on my own again. That only stifles discussion and reduces investment in the game for everyone who is not me. Discussing my target and deciding it as a group can generate good discussion that can help everyone firm up reads regardless of the results we achieve.

I narrowed down the choices to four (plus Reck, if you want) but there's no reason my opinion should have any more weight than anyone else's here. I want to talk it out with everyone and to decide as a group. I think it's the best move for town.

[Bookitty]

Reck, if you traded roles with me, who would you investigate for last night given what we know about what happened already?

[Bookitty]

Yeah, pretty much.

BBMolla, apart from Reck, who would you investigate for last night if you had my role?

[Bookitty]

I would like to lynch Aronis based both on play and on his unreadability. I don't want to vote him yet because I first want to talk about who you guys want me to target for last night, but you can consider my vote effectively there.

[Bookitty]

Okay, by your pool, Marquis, you can leave out Jingle for me because I'm so "Been there, done that."

I want to lynch Aronis and he's off the table for me anyway.

That's leaving Farside, Antihero and Flubber.

Who would you investigate of those three?

[Bookitty]

Okay. So you're going Victor or Anti for me.

I'm not doing BBMolla.

[Bookitty]

I'm pretty sure I know who I will investigate tonight for last night. If people REALLY don't want me to investigate last night again, tell me, and tell me why. I've given my reasons for why I think it's the best move, but I want to hear from anyone who disagrees. Even if you agree, if you have reasons I haven't thought of, I want to hear those too.

Thank you in advance!

[Bookitty]

Thank you, Jingle. I see your point, for sure. I hadn't thought about the possibility that Victor might have carried out the kill last night, but that's possible too.

@Aronis: I don't really think it's a policy lynch. That usually indicates that the person's actions in the current thread have nothing to do with the reasons behind the lynch. I am not a fan of policy lynches for this reason.

I think you, however, are being wagoned because of your actions and choices here, not because of previous interactions. So to me the term doesn't apply.

@Reck: Do you want to talk to the town about possible investigative choices, or are you all set now?

[Bookitty]

@MOD:

Could we please wake up Shiidaji, Flubbernugget and Antihero, please?

Also, VOTE: Aronis

I guess there's no point waiting around and saying nuffin.

[Bookitty]

Thank you, Quilford

[Bookitty]

I am ready and good. I'd like to hear from Shii first if at all possible (just to know he's still with us) but I'm good otherwise.

[Bookitty]

cucumber man, if you don't bg reck as he's checking me, i'm taking it as a scum claim and lynching your sorry ass tomorrow

I don't like this because it seems to be trying to nail down who Shii will protect. I strongly feel that Shii should decide that without telling anyone. I don't see any positive effect in letting scum know which of {Reck, me} will be a safe target.

I would like Shii to check in before the hammer, even if it's just to say he's here.

<3 you all.

[Bookitty]

Hey, DeasVail, do you think Jingle is right and I should check tonight or that he's wrong and I should recheck last night, please?

[Bookitty]

I don't think it helps scum more to discuss the general theory.

Jingle has made some good points about the likelihood that Aronis could have done the scumkill. In that case, I would have zero shot of hitting scum and only a minimal chance of hitting the SK.

A lot depends on Aronis's flip. I still request that Shii be allowed to weigh in or a replacement found for him, if that is necessary before we hammer and end the day.

[Bookitty]

What are your reads right now, Farside?

[Bookitty]

I am sure I know what I will do if Aronis flips scum or if he flips town.

I'm really wanting to wait, though, for Shiidaji to come back if at all possible. I would give him extra time if possible because I'm sure he knows the way this game works and we would have to wait anyway for someone else to get up to speed. Alternatively, we'd have to just tell any replacement what to do and that sort of makes the game less fun when you're being dictated to.

That's how I'm feeling at the moment anyway.

[Bookitty]

Okay, I'm good to go.

Thanks, Shii!

[Bookitty]

Wait until tonight to lemme get my thoughts out when i get back b/c I'm prolly dying tonight.

Please wait on hammering for this.

[Bookitty]

Neither Aronis nor Antihero has posted in over three days.

@MOD:

Could we please have a prod on Aronis and Antihero? Thank you!

I'm okay either way and don't need more discussion time to decide what to do ToNight. I can move my vote to Anti to get a lynch.

[Bookitty]

@Antihero: Here's my issue, and it may or may not be the same as anyone else's.

Aronis is being profoundly unhelpful and not giving us anything to work with. There's no way either Reck or I can check him, either. He's a good lynch from that perspective.

You are being profoundly unhelpful and not giving us anything to work with. We could check you (either of us or both of us) but insisting that Reck be the one to receive Bodyguard protection so he can check you isn't especially pro-town, and here's why:

1. You're trying to nail down where the protection is going to be, something scum wants to know very badly. SK wants to know it too. Reck's investigation isn't going to do anything if you are SK. If you are one of two remaining scum, you're making sure your partner's kill is successful and providing them with cover from being investigated by Reck.

2. If you are town, you're not helping and you're making yourself a huge target of suspicion that detracts from town finding the real scum.

If you're town, you have roughly two days to show it. Right now you're doing the opposite of that imo.

[Bookitty]

I feel kind of weird about the Beetlejuice effect every time I ask for Antihero to be prodded and before Quilford shows up to say that he will do that.

[Bookitty]

Last night Antihero targeted XReckonerX.

VOTE: Antihero

[Bookitty]

I would like to know who killed who, Jingle, when you have a chance.

Thank you!

Also, I will be dead tonight most likely, so please let me know if there's any info you want from me. I can give an open reads list now, I think; I doubt they would leave me alive even if I'm really wrong.