Open 596: Mega PopCorn Mafia - Over

[RedCoyote]

/confirm

This game is almost as good as MILLAR'S MAD HOUSE

[RedCoyote]

Wow, who wants to read 10 pages of what's probably a bunch of popcorn-related nonsense?

Wouldn't it be great if I could just sheep my broski Nacho all game? I mean, who would know?

[RedCoyote]

Who should I vote, brother millar?

[RedCoyote]

Whom

[RedCoyote]

You know, I just realized we can't vote, lol. I also just realized Nacho is the gunbearer so my 246 sounds slimier than I knew, hah.

[RedCoyote]

I'm here. I'll make it a point to read today. Had a busy couple of days. Next couple of days will probably be busy, too.

[RedCoyote]

Nacho, don't you have any policy shots to take?

[RedCoyote]

Did I ask bad questions about Lucky and Red or is it just that nobody knows them?

You think I'm just lurking this one out, brother?

[RedCoyote]

Some notes:

NACHO, IF YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE SOMETHING OUT OF NOTHING OVER TTH POSTING A GODDAMN CAT, I WANT YOUR PUBLIC HUMILIATION TO BE AS SPECTACULAR AND ATTENTION WHORING AS POSSIBLE

I AM DEAD SERIOUS

This doesn't come across as town to me. This reads as tryhard raging. I'm assuming this is Antihero. As I recall, Antihero is not particularly known for raging. If this is TTH, I have no idea.

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id kill dcl. i got a feeling

I think I see where you are going, not sure if I agree or not, but I don't think you're offbase with this necessarily. Gives off this overbearing "go along to get along" vibe, yeah?

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Can we stop the 'shoot meeeeee' shenanigans and get down to scumhunting?

Townpoints from me for this. I'll tell you why: because generally the first person to say this takes a lot of flak from one or more jabronis that can't handle someone killing their fun.

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I only signed up for this game because I thought it would be quick and fun. If you're serious about your over a week-long plan, then that's just stupid.

So I take it you'd rather just sit around flipping coins and predicting what will land, yeah? Why even bother having the pretense of Mafia at all? Let's just roll a X-sided die and all predict what number it will hit. The closest one wins!

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Last time we played this, we let D1 last until we had okay to solid reads on the entirety of the playerlist: the RVS/not-seriousness bit ends when we begin to get reads we are significantly more confident about.

And town won?

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I'm wondering at Nacho's being chosen to be gunbearer. Is this because Nacho is a strong player and scum want him to make a shot based on the least amount of info possible (ie. on day one)?

This has got to be fake. C'mon, julien. You didn't think to look to the setup rules for this answer?

Also the "haven't-played-in-a-while" card reeks.

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pablito's 174 gets townpoints. I sense a townie train of thought here. This is in perfect contrast to julien's 170.

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I fully endorse a Red Coyote shot.

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"I can't read hydras" doesn't cut it

I would shoot hydras with impunity. Also, you seem to be overly critical of vonflare in this post.

---

remember

, these are just

pregame reads

, and I do not gaurentee their accuraccy.

Players I would shoot: Heartless, julien

I'm kind of bummed. This game is rather boring and relatively drama-free thus far. I can't really get into it. I was giving dcl a hard time, but maybe she's got the right idea. I'll try back later.

[RedCoyote]

Lol, is Heartless not the biggest case of scum caught for the wrong reasons that you have ever seen in your life?

Also everytime I've played with Antihero he seems rather chill. Maybe he doesn't remember playing with me???

[RedCoyote]

Also, thanks for the birthday wishes

My wish is... to not get shot.

Oh, and if we have time, the town can win, too.

[RedCoyote]

Haha, TTH, ease up. You're making it seem like I'm trying to turn Antihero against you? I've never even played with you that I know of. I was just making an observation.

You are so tightly wound this game. Being scum must be stressful.

[RedCoyote]

Actually I think the fact that Nacho is the shooter is making me kind of brazen because he knows my play well. I am beaming with arrogance due to the fact that I feel untouchable right now.

[RedCoyote]

I know we've played at least three times, brother. You want I should dig them up? The only reason I even brought it up was because everyone is saying you have meta of being a hothead but that's not how I remember you???

[RedCoyote]

anywaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
[whatever tth is saying is probably right. i haven't read all of the recent stuff, but she's pretty sharp so... yeah]

It's almost like you two are the same alignment???

[RedCoyote]

West, why are you acting so thick? You really couldn't tell that was sarcasm? Obviously I know they're the same player slot/alignment. I've only been playing games on this site for seven years.

My point was Antihero was sitting here talking about how town TTH sounds is completely redundant due to the fact that they're the same player slot. The fact that I had to spell that out for you worries me. :/

Btw, everyone else, I'm in no hurry to get caught up so as I ignore you just deal with it.

[RedCoyote]

Alright, Nacho, give me an hour or so if you are planning on shooting this morning.

[RedCoyote]

I want to say vonflare's panicky 203 - 210 is scummy, but I've done that before as town. I don't know his play well enough to make a determination, so I'm going to err on the side of neutrality in reading that. I'm still not really sure what "pregame reads" refers to. His early posts just read like a bunch of fluff. His readlist in 184 is still okay though. I like it. People can pick it apart, but it reads town to me and vonflare isn't afraid to put himself out there.

I'm leaning on Victor as town for now mainly because the last time I played with him as scum he was more thorough. In any event, he's not worth a shot today at the very least.

Flubber/West/Wanderer pile on vonflare. Seems like at least one scum in this group trying to slip into the momentum.

I like julien's 237. Maybe I was too harsh on him earlier. There's still something too academic and high-minded about this game. It's hard for me to separate votes from actually having substantial meaning. Um, but anyway, I agree that constraining the gunbearer is generally a bad idea, especially given the confirmed-town aspect. It's almost like Wanderer wants to downplay that aspect and allow for some scum influence in the shot.

---

Right now I am worried that since he is such a good player, mafia may be trying to bait him into shooting a vengeful mafia to get him out of the game early. It would make sense since they gave such a good player a gun first. The quicker he is out the game the better for mafia. I am kind of afraid that vonflare is a trap right here. It is strange how much scum got pushed on him so quickly.

I think this is a logical sentiment, but I don't like that you threw it out there without citing anything or anyone specific. Scumpoints for this.

Also I now think Vonflare is unlikely to be the vengeful goon here. I think vengeful goons will probably play more cautiously here since their survival is the utmost importance and I don't think they would be the first one to come out with a read list on every single player in the game. That would be just be getting the unnecessary attention of every player.

Also right now I think Wanderer is town here. I like her lack of response to the pressure put on her like she didn't even care. I feel like town here doesn't care as much if they get shot since they don't die and they just become the new gunbearer. I dislike Flubber for similar reasons since he appears really defensive when being pressured. I understand the pressure against him is pretty weak and getting shot as town is against town's win condition but I still find it hard to get worked up over.

Okay, this is better. I like that you backed up what you said earlier with some actual names and reasoning, so back to town for you.

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RE pablito/Wanderer: This discussion of shooting a vengeful versus a goon seems to take for granted the ability to differentiate them to begin with. I don't know if we ought to be making this so complicated. Just hit scum. Period.

I'm having trouble telling who would be scum in this game. I'm just leaning more toward shooting hydras and lurkers for right now. Jeanne/Heartless? Actually I guess when I say hydras I just mean Heartless, huh? I guess PN is a hydra, but since they don't play like one it doesn't bother me.

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It seems like he realized he said something a bit scummy and wanted to backtrack to avoid someone doing that for him.

It seems that way because I flat out told everyone that was the case, lol. Why did you phrase it this way ("it seems like")? I mean, I was pretty definitive about it.

Also: The game isn't at a stage where I find inactivity scummy. I think the active players are a mix of scum and town, so activity-related arguments would be null.

Maybe not, but it is anti-town and therefore worthy of a target. I would've included myself in that group, of course, but I'm trying to get properly caught up now.

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Also, I have no comments about nacho being gun bearer. Took on a vocal leadership-y role early, and him being chosen - nothing special to see here imo

What is this useless comment for?

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I agree about enomis, but I can't tell what you're trying to say with this last paragraph besides "nacho should shoot scum"

I like this comment. It makes me suspect Max some.

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I am feeling a little uneasy about this post. The tone of it suggests [pablito may] know my alignment.

Oh, yeah. I like this. CB is town. I think only town would say this. Unless CB/pablito are scum together.

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This game is so much for the analysts that want to sit around and debate schemas and strategies. How did we get so bogged down in that? FYI, that's probably a big reason why I'm dragging in this game. Well, the main reason is that I'm town and that's the first big disappointment, but the second reason is pablito/Wanderer/Max/Nacho/CB are all trying to one up one another on who can come up with the most boring way to play the game effectively. A perfect example of this is 293, but there are many others. And, yes, I realize there's merit in that. I take the game seriously, too. Really I do. But when you stray too far away from what makes Mafia Mafia (e.g. voting), that saps away from what I know how to do as town. To put it another way: I already dislike being town, but when you make me town AND you throw in some crazy, seriously-game-altering mechanics that turn proper play on its head, you may as well just give me a pillow and blanket because I'll fall asleep reading that and trying to contribute in any meaningful way. Anyway, this isn't really read-related for me, just wanted to get that off my chest to elaborate as to why I've been lurking.

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Two things:
1) When both reads were expressed, I had already moved on from a scumread to a townread on the players she was talking about.
2) I didn't say they were great, I said they were par for the course based on not really much content generated at all, which I don't really think is an unfair comment to make at all. What makes her lack of legit reads more significant than anyone else's lack of legit reads?

I wonder if Heartless is being cranky for its own sake. Or to appear town (e.g. someone that argumentative must be town!)? The slot puts me off for sure though.

Another big thing to keep in mind is that if we have three good townreads, we win the game.
Before I shoot, I'd like to have three solid townreads I'm willing to bet a game on.

CB is one I would take to the bank. There's no doubt in my mind with him.

pablito would probably be the next closest, but based on what I've read thus far I wouldn't bet the game on it.

This is probably the best way to win this game though. Forming that bloc.

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@Red

: Why were you planning on sheeping Nacho, then? Looking for an answer beyond "he's my broski."

I've played with Nacho quite a bit. I probably have more games with him than any other player on the site. Nacho himself has more games on this website than any other player I know of. Actually, DGB may have him beat, but Nacho would probably be second. Then maybe Reck? In any event, I haven't played with him for a while, but I can appreciate his play a great deal, especially as town. The whole comment is tongue-in-cheek, of course. I had every intention of reading through the game as I'm doing right now. It just takes me a bit to work up the initiative because once the game starts ballooning I know it's going to be a 2 - 3 hours endeavor. It's not like I'm scum where I have a clear objective of obfuscating, harming the town and causing mayhem which is fun. No, I actually have to care about what the town does and give my honest opinions. That requires more effort. Effort I don't want to give. Ergo, maybe I can just sheep someone that I know and trust to have a good town game.

But then 255 came about because I had originally assumed this game was going to be more like Everyone's a Critic. I hadn't really taken the time to absorb the mechanics. After I actually saw Nacho was the gunbearer, I thought to myself, "Eh, that tongue-in-cheek post actually looks much worse because people aren't going to realize I said that I was going to sheep Nacho thinking that Nacho was just another unconfirmed player, but rather they'll assume I was just not wanting to contribute at all and let the gunbearer do what he wants".

Anyway, long way of explaining what was going on in my head there when I made those two posts.

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The thing about shooting inactive is that if it's town the gunmoves to inactive town. Do we want That? I don't.

Agreed.

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yeah, which is unfortunate b/c tth will most assuredly yell at me for being too soft on you.

Who cares? Why are you airing this in the thread other that to make yourself seem more likable (read: emotionally try to get us to relate to you more, read: emotionally manipulate us)?

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deep-city-lights: I think her wanting a faster game with less stagnation is a null tell. Once again it just indicates personal preference. I don't like the fact that she just refused to answer vonflare's question. Why did you ask to be shot, dcl?

I'm backtracking from my earlier stance on this. This is probably town. I feel hypocritical for giving dcl the business on this because I can emphasize with how weighed down this game feels.

As far as Max goes... I keep going back and forth on him. I like this whole reads post though.

No, I don't think scum can hold the gun, obviously. I'm saying that it's more difficult for scum to influence a whole bunch of votes (a lotta people to influence), and it is much easier to influence a single person, ie the gunbearer.

Good point.

---

I've been thinking a bit more about the mechanic that means that a shot townie keeps the gun. I think that in this setup we should expect scum to take a less-than-pugilistic stance in this game because if they are seen to drive a mislynch, the person whom they mislynch will be alive the next day with the power to shoot whomever they like (and maybe a grudge as well). It makes sense, then, that scum would want to lurk or soft-pedal, perhaps even more so than in a normal game.

I don't agree with this necessarily. You can WIFOM this to death. What if the scum think that the town will think that the lurkers will be the best choices for scum because the town won't assume that the scum will be aggressive? I mean, there's going to be lurking in every game. Period. Town or scum. Mechanic be damned. So it would be wise for scum to point to lurkers, too, and say something like "especially in this game, lurkers are scummy" as it would take the spotlight off of them, yeah?

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And can you please stop misrepping. I said I have no experience with nightless, lynchless mafia. How do people that play themed games deal with this all the time? It's my first themed game on this site and I haven't read any other theme games, are you saying all themed games are nightless and lynchless?

I'm not necessarily townreading Wanderer, but she's on point here. Why would julien jump to the conclusion that Wanderer "deals with this sort of thing all the time"? What a strange comment.

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Scum List:
Enomis - I don't like how he had to be called out for his posting before he started being serious 263. I don't like how he had zero mafia reads 272 . I don't like how he is defensive in this post 301. I don't like how he brought up the setup logic 228 after someone else had already asked the mod about it 185 and I don't like his defensiveness over a lurker.

Although I don't really have an opinion on enomis (nothing he's done has stuck out to me as particularly townie or scummy), I like this read.

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In this game a naked vote seems roughly equivalent to a gut read

In every game.

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kjfldssssssssssssssssamadjoieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew;oij

it's just kinda' weird.

You've got to be doing this on purpose.

Antihero:

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AKA this game needs more passion

Yep.

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I will say this first , if i get the gun, i am most probably gonna shoot who i want to shoot. Point is,I trust my own reads over others.

I like this brutal honesty. This is kind of a "no duh" thing, but I like how it flys in the face of all the great planners. As good of intentions as players like Nacho and CB have, they are necessarily dragging some of us kicking and screaming (metaphorically) through this phase of the game. At least speaking for myself, but I assume enomis would agree.

Actually this post gives me townvibes on enomis. I would like to see what CB has to say about it given his earlier scumread.

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VOTE: miller

This strikes me as scummy. I wish Flubber was more vocal about what this actually meant. There are times to be subtle and times to elucidate. This is one of those times.

Besides, millar's 360 and 362 are hysterical.

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Millar's most recent post (posts..) also made me laugh. I love how hostile they got after Flubber voted them. I'd say that's scummy but it just seems so... what's the word? it seems like terrible scumplay, so I can only assume millar is scum who doesn't really care how they appear, or millar is just town. I'm leaning the second one, but maybe that's just cause I don't think a millar shot is a helpful. If they're scum, they're not vengeful, and if they're town, I don't want them holding a gun.

I can't tell if it's your writing style or a personality clash or something, but this just rubs me the wrong way. It's like you're trying to hard too appear analytical.

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There's a difference between not liking hydras and not reading them. I'm not sure if that's the point you're trying to make but its a good place to start

The whole "die-if-you're-wrong" thing is tricky, but I'd probably take the chance nonetheless. Heartless is scum outside of being a hydra. I'm not as sure about PN, but I'd still take the shot.

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Unrelated: Happy birthday!

Thanks!

Yeah, I would, probably (shoot hydras for being hydras). Isn't it good you have someone more thoughtful like Nacho in charge?

Anyway, I talk big, but we'll see what happens when/if I get the gun.

---

It put me off that coyote added that rage from heartless in his reads.

It seems fake to me.

Why now?

This is a disjointed read of the game. I'm forcing myself to go back and read it and give y'all my honest opinions at the very least. Take that how you will.

---

That was Anti. Obviously.

And here comes the faux rage at not being able to pick apart the internal workings of the hydra. God forbid you two take the time to make it easier on the rest of us, no, we have to cater to Heartless and know when which head is saying what and be able to sift through all the dissonance without fail.

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Speaking of hydras, I'm fine with playing with them, but I have problems when they don't sign their posts. It's hard to understand a person's thought process when you don't know which one is speaking, and it's easy for me to misinterpret two people speaking as one person who keeps changing their mind.

This is because Heartless wants to bait people into misinterpreting them by being deliberately all over the place so they can then turn around and paint someone as scummy when they call them out on it (me, Flubber). It's totally easy mode.

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I still think Lucky's the best shot out of the Lucky/RC duo which Nacho is (presumably still?) considering. Which is sad because nobody seems to want to talk about him.

This sounds pretty town. West9 is inching ever closer to a deserved spot in the Nacho bloc.

The dissonance is frustratingly confusing at times.

I hope you'll take the time to consider that they may very well be using it as a scum tactic.

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Can you elaborate on this I don't understand.

I retract that comment, but I think it's scummy for a different reason now. The fact that he even brought it up reads to me like he was trying to force speculation on it when there wasn't any. Besides, it does little good to speculate on it, at least at this stage of the game. It can be WIFOM'd to death.

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I FORGOT TO CONSIDER THAT TTH MIGHT BE SCUM

HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

You knew what I meant.

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Yes, we can force people to do it. If they don't, they're on the shortlist for being shot. That being said, votes mean nothing, right?

I don't mind voting. The mod is kind of lacking in the VC department though.

VOTE: Heartless

Maybe Max/pablito wants to keep track of votes?

Anyway, y'all draw up your plans, anything that gets people on record is okay in my book.

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Never mind, I did some reading up on trust tells. I don't think Red quite used one but if he's trying to suggest that we should know he's town based on his playstyle and his meta, rather than engaging more with this game, it is tedious if nothing else.

Nacho knows. I didn't say or imply anything about "we" or the town as a whole. Please don't put words in my mouth.

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Ok lets start now because I'm getting tired of discussing this day.

Um, the impression I got was that Nacho would be doing this. Why are you taking the initiative when it's not really your place to do so?

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You're admitting your laziness, which I guess would be fine if you did more after that, but according to 444 you don't seem to care? You still lean town to me because I can't imagine where your baseless confidence would be coming from as scum.

Be careful what you wish for. :O

I do care, but see above.

RE Wanderer/Max getting in on this Vengeful vs goon thing... again I say, let's just focus on hitting scum, eh? I mean, if Nacho thinks he can find a vengeful versus a goon, let him at it. I don't think it's as easy as y'all are making it sound.

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Side note. TheIrishPope and notscience made this game so memorable the last go-around. I miss that! I remember freaking out about potentially being shot and doing dumb things. None of the past Popcorn redux versions will ever live up to my unfair expectations, but still love it! I actually haven't asked Gaiden whether he has played Popcorn before, but we agreed to join once the advertisement came out.

I've never played this before, but that's kind of the impression I got when signing up. That I would be the stickler and that we'd have a bunch of crazed lunatics shooting from the hip or threatening to.

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455 is most definitely a scum slip

This is money. Yeah, at first I thought Vic was being genuinely lazy, but I don't think he can drag that out so long. He's baiting for sure.

NOTE: If he's shot and flips goon, then the scum are playing very tactically and it needs to be taken into consideration when shooting going forward.

UNVOTE: Heartless; VOTE: VictorDeAngelo

I'm also claiming intent for the Lucky shot sometime tomorrow.

I differ to your ability to read him. I've played with him three times and I think he's difficult to read. I would not put him at the top of my scumlist, but he has been lurking, so I have no qualms about seeing him go.

I'd also like to implement pablito's referendum idea starting now. I'd like to do a mix of town and scum referendums. Because town reads are just as important as scumreads in a Nightless game such as this, I'd like people thinking about both as much as possible. The style of referendum I'm proposing right now are three total: the gunbearer's top scum choice, the gunbearer's top town choice, and the most controversial choice. I put julien's suspicion of wanderer in referendum form because he's the only person who I remember actually suspecting wanderer.

Wow, you want to talk structured. I agree with the idea in principle, but this is going to be a bitch to enforce.

I'm assume yea means we agree with the proposal and nay is we disagree. I'd really rather only the gunbearer put forth these referendum as they're confirmed town. If we're having everyone put up referendum, then we certainly shouldn't be doing it for other players (why are you writing one of julien?).

Target: Vonflare
Accuser: Nachomamma8

Nay. I maintain his reads list, while clearly imperfect, was vonflare sticking his neck out when he needn't do so. Why do this as scum? Your contention is that it's to show content and look town, but it ended up backfiring on him if that were the case. Your point about PN vs Flubber is a good one, however. I don't have an answer to that other than that's how he saw the game at the time.

Target: CB
Sponsor: Nachomamma8

Yea. His suspicion on pablito sealed the deal. That post bled town.

Target: Wanderer
Accuser: julienvonwolfe

Yea. I've noticed this slot starting to get overly defensive as the shot beckons. I especially didn't like 441 and how she's trying to put on as though she should take what I think most of us would assume as your role in forming these referendums. Her throwing herself in as an afterthought and saying, "good luck pushing me as scum!" was all kinds of yuck, too.

1.4
Target: Wanderer
Sponsor: Nachomamma8

Nay. You seem to be reading too much into that statement, I think. I get neutral vibes from it. "Shoot me and get it over with" may come from town more than scum, but it's also an emotional ploy. It depends on the person. I see Wanderer as the type of person to use that sort of comment to manipulate more than genuinely express frustration. Especially after it comes on the back of "here, shoot these two people instead of me... but if you have to, shoot me and get it over with, I guess... *pout*". The backing off of enomis is a solid point, it's tough for me to refute that one.

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Funny how lucky gets talking when he's one of two options being shot, and also one of those 2 not being (carefully) townread by the GB.

Always a fair point.

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1.1 NAY. Do not shoot for that reason, I don't agree with the suspicion.
1.2 NAY. Do not shoot, is very, very town.
1.3 NAY. That rationale does not stand up for me.
1.4 NAY. I do not buy that argument, and I think wanderer actually falls in the middle for me at the moment, but would not agree on putting wanderer in either town or scum pile based on that argument.

Now I'm confused. I assumed 1.2 and 1.4 were town reading referendums?

Would Shoot (in descending order): VictorDeAngelo, Heartless, Wanderer, PN, julien, Max
Lurker shots: Jeanne, Lucky, millar

[RedCoyote]

How's that? They seem alright, but I thought it was going to be something different. I didn't really delve into it. Now I'm here though, so we play the hand we're dealt.

[RedCoyote]

You know what I mean though, Lucky? It's bad enough being town. When you can't even really vote, eh, just kind of sucks what little influence and therefore interest you have in the game to begin with. I'm hoping when we get a few shots off it will start to get real though. In the mean time I'll just get my kicks pestering TTH.

[RedCoyote]

Questions? Questions about what?

Here's a question, why are you not contributing? Okay, that's about the only question I have based on what you've posted thus far (508 notwithstanding).

Walk me through why me flipping goon would imply tactically playing scum? What would me flipping Vengeful imply?

The implication is scum may be using goons to more or less bait shots while the vengefuls hang back and play much more cautiously. The vengeful scum are the real power brokers and the key for town victory. To put it another way, the goons are pawns on a chessboard to the vengefuls' queens.

[RedCoyote]

Some stuff I want to touch on later, but there's something more important that I was to get to first:

I really think Heartless is scummy, but I'm willing to offer a truce to the slot on the basis of Nacho being a better, more objective player that has read both of our slots as extremely town. The Victor reveal notwithstanding, I put a tremendous amount of stock in Nacho's ability to townread other players. I can keep butting heads with Heartless (I agree with a lot of what Max said in 526), but I also recognize that I could also be wrong in my scummy assessment of their play here and that my provoking TTH is just leading both of us in the wrong direction (aka we're more concerned with scoring snarky, aggressive rhetorical points on one another than actually scumhunting each other at this point)).

What do you two say?

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: was = want

Also want to revise my own personal shot preference list but somewhat surprisingly Heartless' list is very similar to mine (preference would probably be PN, julien and Jeanne in no particular order).

[RedCoyote]

I'm not basing anything on my "walls". That was merely a catchup post to let people know where I stand. Because I cannot and will not check into the website every 2 - 4 hours, I tend to get behind in games and that necessitates I make fewer (but bigger) posts on average. So, I mean, it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't thing. If I don't do it, people will accuse me of lurking or ignoring pertinent stuff, but if I do, I've got people accusing me of trying to "walling to make people automatically townread you". (For the record, Nacho was townreading me before I made that post,)

I'm basing my alignment (and yours, for the purposes of this specific discussion between us) on Nacho's read. If you can agree that Nacho has a more objective read of us two individually in this game then we do of each other, then I can do the same and I'd be glad to go forward from there onto other people. If you don't, well, frankly I'll probably still move forward with just more or less ignoring you as I trust Nacho's ability to read you better than I trust mine and we'll just awkwardly interact for the rest of the game. My criticisms of your play are clearly provoking you, and vice versa. I don't particularly want to spend the time and energy arguing with you if we're both willing to place confidence in Nacho this game. Will you agree to that?

[RedCoyote]

Hm, alright then, sad to hear that. Catching up now.

[RedCoyote]

I've been busy. And I am contributing now so.....

Your comment about questions to you had struck me as passive aggressive and not in the spirit of contributing to healthy discussion.

Other than simply not posting (while v/la) what else have I done to bait a shot in your eyes?

As Nacho pointed out, your comment about "if I'm not shot yet", seemed to imply that you were baiting a shot.

why would goons be keen to draw shots early on, as opposed to trying to actively trying to get town shot?

In a perfect world, that would be great for scum. But I see the goons' top priority as keeping the heat away from the vengefuls. If, for example, a gunbearer as meticulous as Nacho appeared to be heading toward a vengeful for a shot, then it would be imperative upon the goons to try and bait the shot toward them instead. Again, pawn < queen.

---

personally I'm curious as to what my meta is in the eyes of other players, both as town and mafia

I can't read you, but I don't know if I have played with you as scum before. I'd guess you're town in this game because I don't think you'd be as brazen as scum.

---

i feel like im wading through 7 feet of nonsense. nacho should shoot already. all the talk is theoretical

Shots have been fired, brother. What do we do now?

---

Hey nacho, here is my okay to shoot enomis.

Why are you ignoring Lucky/Victor in this post? If you've already addressed them before, please point me to the post.

---

jackass

your wall doesn't make you any more town, bee tee dubs

No need to get sore (again). So, you're like, what, mini-Fate now? I read over some of a =11238#p2478736]old game we had, and you don't sound similar to me. Of course, you were scum there, so that's a point in your favor. Then again, you've got the hydra thing.

Funnily enough, I already brought this game up earlier.

jeez, what the fuck is with the deliberate eye-poking for no goddamn reason?

It clearly has a reason. I'm attempting to show other players that you're airing your hydra internal discussion in the thread to try and get people to sympathize with you. Whether or not you're doing that for sinister purposes is up to the reader.

oh hey while you're busy bitching mindlessly and incessantly about dissonance, you probably don't have time to realize THERE'S ISN'T DISSONANCE TO BITCH ABOUT.

And the post we just referenced? Where you complained about how tth is going to get mad at you for going soft on people? Also how about TTH "tinkering" with your reads by adding 6 new scumreads? Let's be serious. When you two get on the same page insomuch as you don't have to get on the thread saying "okay, person X thinks this, but I think this!", I'll be the first one to throw a party.

you being scum would kind of mitigate how much of a dick you're going out of your way to be, but only a little bit

I call it like I see it, friend. I harbor no ill-will. I enjoyed it a bit when I thought you guys were scum though.

---

The phrase "stupid-ass righteous indignation" is interesting though. The fact that you think RedCoyote can have 'righteous indignation" implies that you don't think he's scum.

I like this post, but this comment is a step above. This tells me Max is really taking the game seriously and thinking like a townie. Normally I'd be ready to agree with you, and even take it a step farther and say that it is a scumslip, after Victor's flip I'm going to tone down the thinking that I can catch people slipping this game.

---

On another note, WE agree with Max's about Heartless's push to get RC shot.
It feels odd. the "win-win-win-win" post doesn't sit well.

It feels odd because it comes across as fake. All of Antihero's posturing aside, I don't get the rage. Like, I don't. I'm being blunt, but I'm not doing anything that I would consider particularly hostile outside of the parameters of scumhunting.

---

^I say what he said

Okay. Shoot this.

---

Okay, Nacho's 464 makes a lot of sense to me. I think I like Red after all. Victor's definitely worth a shot; I missed how his 'unless I get shot' post could be a slip.

In light of Victor's flip, I don't like this sheep. enomis' is potentially bad as well, but julien's activity just doesn't sit right with me. A lot of "me too"ing from julien, isn't there?

---

also, someone can be righteously indignant about hating hydras and still be scum. what you're talking about is a "scum lie about everything fallacy"

To me, this reads as textbook scum caught for the wrong reasons. If you were to happen to flip scum, I would go so far as to point to this game as my goto example of it.

---

I don't think anyone was recommending that we do a voting system where the gunbearer does not get the right to shoot. Naturally the confirmed town should always lead the shot. I just think people wanted to force interactions of mafia just like in a normal game where mafia have to decide whether or not to join a wagon. This leads to better associative reads down the line. The fact that he is misrepresenting what people were saying makes him seem slightly scummy.

Reading your posts I feel almost like you're running a clinic on how to play as town. I don't even want to praise you this much because I know it comes across as buddying. This is just a good answer and now I want to hear from enomis again.

So, what about Wanderer's idea that all players should make their own referendum?

---

People who I wouldn't shoot ever and strongly urge not to shoot ever:
CB, Pablito, Heartless, Wanderer, RedCoyote
(aka if 4 of these players never hold a gun you will win the game)

I pledge, here and now, that I won't shoot anyone on this list should I have the gun. I encourage the others on this list to do the same. Anyone on this list can quote me on that.

---

Feels forced and ingenuine.

As much as I wanted to like that enomis quote... I didn't. It pains me to say it, but I think you're right. enomis should probably be shot.

if RC really thinks I'm as scummy as he's portraying me in some parts of his wallposts, then I wonder why he would (unintentionally?) hide it inside a wall. Why not make a referendum-style post about me with his reasons for scumreading me? It makes me feel his scumread on me is forced; he knows it's wrong so he doesn't really want to accuse me himself.

Two things, if you had read the post more thoroughly (which I don't blame you if you didn't because it's long and boring... kind of like this game!), you'd have seen that I clearly mentioned you at the tl;dr portion at the very end that showed I would be willing to shoot you (bear in mind that I willingly retract this now, not because I think you're any more town, but because I will defer to Nacho's will). I mean, that's about as clear as you can get.

The other thing, I said I don't agree with the referendum-style posts being used by non-gunbearers. That is untenable and no one will take it seriously. Hell, 75% of the game didn't even properly respond to Nacho's referendum. Ergo, I told Nacho straight-up that while I like the idea in theory, it's really going to be a bitch to enforce it. If you seriously advocate that all players do it whenever they suspect another player, well, you're kidding yourself.

[RedCoyote]

No, it doesn't ring badly. I think Heartless is playing scummy; I choose to forego that intuition/read and instead commit to the idea that I will not shoot Heartless this game (should I receive the gun). I wish for the others on Nacho's list to make the same commitment.

I trust Nacho so much because I have a relationship with him that has been forged over several years and several games. He is a proven townie this game. I think he has a much better town game overall than I do, and I will live or die, win or lose, by that stance in this game. Yes, he was wrong about Victor, but that is not indicative of being wrong about some or even most of his other reads given, one, I agreed with his scumread of Victor, and two, that several other people did as well.

Additionally, I'm not trying to shirk responsibility to my actions. I'm my own man. I could disagree with Nacho if I wanted to. I'm choosing not to because I think he, far more than anyone else (except maybe pablito) has pored over this game and taken the time to consider it thoughtfully. Nacho has a very solid track record on this site. I do not say that lightly.

[RedCoyote]

The gunbearer is dead. Long live the gunbearer.

[RedCoyote]

Also there is literally no reason to sheep nacho on heartless if you can make a scum case on them

Lolwut?

This really reads scum to me, Flubber. You want to try making your point again? This time, pretend to not gloss over the fundamental differences in the mechanics between this game and traditional Mafia.

[RedCoyote]

Victor, I hope we get more from you. I see glimmers of good stuff, but I hope you plan on taking more of a leadership role.

[RedCoyote]

if you already know who you're going to shoot, you're better off just taking the goddamn shot. we're at the point where flips are going to do us more good than more gassing on and rehashing the same old shit.

This.

[RedCoyote]

The power has gone to his head!

[RedCoyote]

Yeah, gotta side with Heartless again, Vic. it's hard for me to take your seriously when you are complaining at us for not scum hunting. I mean, you haven't even been around most game. You realize you are confirmed town now and that carries a lot of weight. I appreciate you wanting to hear from prior before making your decision, but you really ought to direct that discussion. Otherwise there is plenty of content to go on.

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: hear from us

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: hear from us

[RedCoyote]

Well, for me, it's frustrating to have to go back and repeat stuff I've already said. I'll do it because you're town and I want to help positively influence you, but it feels like we're treading over the same ground. I'll post later when I'm at my laptop.

[RedCoyote]

Since you haven't said much on the subject since advocating shooting me, I assumed that perhaps you might some new thoughts on the matter.

I disagree with that statement, as Heartless has attested to (though Antihero put it much more harshly than I would've). Immediately after the shot, 557, 558, 560 and 566 were my big takeaways. I think I laid out pretty clearly that I no longer advocate a Heartless shot (as I have in the past), and in fact I've gone as far as to advocate suggest that Heartless, pablito, CB, Wanderer and myself all commit to not shooting one another this game. This is a far cry from my positions prior to Nacho shooting you and revealing you as town, as CB was my only huge townread and Heartless and Wanderer were in my sights.

The shots I would like to see at this very moment would be either enomis, Flubber, julien or PN.

I'm going to retract my previous call for a Jeanne shot. I no longer get the sense that she's scum, nor do I now think the scum came into this game with the strategy to have the goons actively bait for a shot. Jeanne and Lucky seem only interested in pestering for a shot to fulfill their vigilante fantasies. Jeanne especially I see no town or scum motivation behind her posts. Further, she may be replaced with someone useful soon, so I would recommend laying off of her until we see if that happens or not.

---

From what I've read of your wallpost it looked like you had good points for heartless being scum and then rejected those to sheep nacho. From pablito's most recent post it looks like I missed something Nacho suggested that I'm going to have to ISO later to get back on track

Well, I encourage you to skim over my new position on shooting Heartless and give me a better argument than "if you can make a scum case then you should shoot them". This reads like all sorts of bad to me, Flubber. It reads like you're trying to unduly influence my shot. If you think Heartless is scum, then I encourage you to convince me (and others) that that's the case. I don't like your "behind-the-scenes" attempt at trying to tug at my consciousness and more or less whisper in my ear. 576 strikes me as all sorts of slimy, even if it's out in the open.

Another thing, it reads like you know my alignment. I don't recall you ever making any big sweeping statements that you think I am so town that you know I would get the gun if ever shot.

---

But if it helps anyone, this friction isn't anybody's fault. It's just a consequence of Victor getting a little bit of a late start.

And I can respect that, but what I don't like is him seemingly coming in after the fact (of Nacho's death) and saying, "Okay everyone, let's start again! " as though nothing took place before the shot.

Eh, I mean, it's not as big of a deal as Antihero is making it, but it just rubbed me the wrong way. I'm cooler now and I am ultimately confident that Victor will make a thoughtful decision in the end in any case. I just think he could've approached it with a little more couth.

West9 might be hiding in our scumhunting blind spot.

You know, I got a similar vibe. I didn't want to say anything yet though. I was also a bit skeptical when he made a big song and dance about wanting more answers from me (he asked me a question and brought it back up no less than 3 times before I responded), which was fine, but as soon as I answered he completely dropped the issue altogether.

---

Townreads are the key to winning this setup so I need to be certain of the player.

I agree with this 100%. How do you feel about Heartless as of late?

---

If WE were to get the gun right now, WE will shoot CB.

I think PN has started recently advocating a CB shot because maybe he thinks that will dissuade others from shooting him. However, in my mind, I'd kind of welcome PN attempting to shoot CB because it would remove an anti-town element and put the gun in good hands. That said, I'm happy with the gun in Victor's hands as well.

[RedCoyote]

Lucky is so cute. :3

[RedCoyote]

I've made it very clear that I have a town read on CB. What's your point?

[RedCoyote]

WE felt like You were fumbling trying to explain something that didn't need explaining.

Apparently it does as our gunbearer asked me straight up about my reads.

[RedCoyote]

Hey.

Okay, okay, okay. enomis is cute, too...

...in a scummy kind of way.

[RedCoyote]

You aren't even going to give vonflare a cursory answer before taking off? The deed is done, after all.

[RedCoyote]

Because if pablito is town (which I think he is), Victor is dead and I would appreciate hearing a dead confirmed townie's insight into the game.

[RedCoyote]

Especially given the man has said next to nothing about his own personal reads to begin with.

[RedCoyote]

Touche.

[RedCoyote]

I want to see those on the list to comment on whether they agree with this plan or not.

To reiterate, I agree and have pledged to follow that "do not shoot" list for this game. I encourage you to do the same now that you're the gunbearer, pablito.

To expound a bit, we'll quite probably be losing pablito at some point (if we don't, he'll definitely get a scummy nomination from me). It disappoints me that Wanderer and Heartless still see me as scummy (or potentially scummy based on X person's flip), but that's their cross to bear. I've made peace with the fact that I will not be shooting CB, Wanderer or Heartless, and it's actually very emancipating. I don't feel overwhelmed by the game at all and see a clear path to victory.

---

Anyways, about Nacho's idea of a Do Not Shoot list... I just think it's a bad idea. Especially one made that early in the game. Nacho made that list with zero flips, so he had the least information out of any GBs. Declaring some people 'town forever' and just leaving it at that is lazy, and disregards later information, or flips, that could come up.

It's a fair point you make, Max, but people can just as easily townhunt as they can scumhunt. Additionally, the first person to receive the gun immediately went against Nacho's wishes and... he shot a townie. Of course this doesn't prove Nacho's list as infallible, but there's a lesson there. Further, I still maintain that Nacho, at least as it's provable rhetorically, has put far and away the most effort in trying to pick that very specific group of people that he called his "untouchables". Another thing I like about our group is how we're a diverse crowd (relative to this game) in our approaches to D1.

And another thing, there are many, many worse strategies to approach a game on this site than putting your trust in townNacho (sure beats townVictor). It bears repeating that, to my knowledge, he has more experience on this site than virtually any other scummer I can think of. Past performance does not guarantee future results, but that's something you can consider positively nonetheless.

[RedCoyote]

I really, really do not want a Jeanne shot. She's very likely town and will undoubtedly shoot someone at random if she ever comes back.

I don't consider Flubber or PN to be lurkers, really.

Also, Wanderer, Victor was more or less a lurker when Nacho shot him. That didn't turn out so well.

enomis would be the closest person to a lurker that I'd be fine with shooting right now.

[RedCoyote]

I really, really do not want a Jeanne shot. She's very likely town and will undoubtedly shoot someone at random if she ever comes back.

Why?

I no longer get the sense that she's scum, nor do I now think the scum came into this game with the strategy to have the goons actively bait for a shot. Jeanne and Lucky seem only interested in pestering for a shot to fulfill their vigilante fantasies. Jeanne especially I see no town or scum motivation behind her posts. Further, she may be replaced with someone useful soon, so I would recommend laying off of her until we see if that happens or not.

[RedCoyote]

Because the only read I can get off of her posts is that she wants someone to shoot her so she gets to "do something". Ergo, she's probably just a bored townie.

This is false about Jeanne btw..

Shoot me!

I am a resident masochist

C'mon, shoot me. I am the Pope. Everyone hates the Pope.

Shoot meeeee......^_^

[RedCoyote]

Oh she had that. I thought all she posted was hello.

BTW, if you want to know, she lurks in all of the games i have with her. And she site-flakked.

I realize that she lurks, but she hasn't site-flaked. Check it out yourself.

[RedCoyote]

I have a crush on TTH, btw.

[RedCoyote]

Mod

, are you looking for a Jeanne replacement?

[RedCoyote]

Nooo... she might respond to the prod. Can't you just find someone else, please???

[RedCoyote]

Those that I am still considering to shoot:
enomis, Feirei, Flubbernugget, Lucky2u, MaxwellPuckett, millar13, Perpetual Nonsense, vonflare, West9

Everyone please nominate 1-3 people I should add to my shortlist. I plan on releasing a shortlist of 2-4 in the next few days. So if you have a strong case on someone that I might have been blind to, please let me know right now.

Nominate people to add, specifically? Well, the only person I would add is julien. I don't see how a replacement will get me to change my mind about that slot. Heck, you've got 50+% of the player list up there, yeah? Do you want me to help narrow it down for you with my top three?

Flubber, julien and PN would be my top three. Nothing I've seen has really moved me off of that. I'm satisfied with any of those people in your list getting shot, however.

Actually, scratch that, I'd probably take Max out. I think he's been very consistent over the course of this game, whereas I think as scum he may mold his opinion to fit with whichever person held the gun at the time. Max's consistency tells me he's genuinely interested in finding new information to help him scumhunt more accurately. I'd also probably take Lucky out. Hell, Lucky and millar both sound like they're just biding their time until they can get the gun. I personally wouldn't take the chance on those two (plus Jeanne).

[RedCoyote]

So Right now, I'm assuming you want Flubber and PN.

Yeah.

Welcome, Suzune!

Good news: I think you are replacing into a town slot!
Bad news: I'm probably the only one that thinks so, lol.

[RedCoyote]

So Right now, I'm assuming you want Flubber and PN.

Yeah.

Welcome, Suzune!

Good news: I think you are replacing into a town slot!
Bad news: I'm probably the only one that thinks so, lol.

PSA: I misspoke in this post. I thought Suzune was replacing Jeanne's slot, not julien's.

[RedCoyote]

Everyone seems to unanimously agree that he is town. Why?

Rational thinking. I find him deconstructing posts in such a way that looks like it comes from town. See some of his earlier content surrounding play theory. The tipping point for me came when he really gave pablito a once over early on. That just screamed to me like a player that was unafraid of putting potentially unpopular opinions out there and explaining why he felt that way.

I looked at both pieces of evidence you posted, and I don't really see anything wrong with them. 592 in particular is very open and honest about where his reads are. I don't see what's so wrong with this.

One point I will give you is the "I've never played with this person but..." qualifier. CB may be using that more than is to be expected of town, but to fair, some players have been bringing it up a bit. Nacho puts good stock into meta, and I think that's transparent in some of his reads. While I don't necessarily put as much stock in meta, I do put quite a bit of stock in townNacho, and I have been very vocal about this.

Others who have caught my eye as being potentially mafia are Feirei and millar. They seem to be quite inactive and their posts add little to the game. In a game like this the town might want to lurk, however it is not protown to at least aid in investigation.

What do you think of the idea of players deliberately playing anti-town in order to try and game people into shooting them so that they may "have fun" as a gun-bearer? I think this is the case with millar.

---

My 'no one shoot this slot' was saying that I think her opening posts are towny. I think it's going too far to say she's super-confirmed town, or even my strongest townread. It was just an exaggerated way of saying I liked her opening post, I didn't mean for it to come off as anything besides that.

Eh, I kind of dislike this. This really reads like backpedaling. I get that it can be construed as a figure of speech, but still...

---

RE: pablito's 839 I'm willing to let Suzune play out longer. I like her contributions though I'm not quite sold on the depth just yet. She's good enough to take off my shoot list though. I'll replace her with enomis.

That PN hasn't picked up the ball and ran with it RE: Suzune's CB scumread tells me he is totally insincere and would probably be my top shot at the moment.

---

I feel that there's several obvious mafia goons lingering around, but I don't feel comfortable just making a safe shot, much like Nacho would've wanted to do. With the newly explained win condition (and it makes much more sense now), it means that no matter what, we only need one guaranteed town read in the end. As long as we all agree to keep that one person alive by the end of the game, by process of elimination, we'll get rid of all vengeful and goons. Easier said than done though. Especially, since I'm starting to believe that in the list of 5 that Nacho made (pablito, wanderer, CB, RC, Heartless), there's one mafia, and maybe one vengeful.

2 scum in 4 people? Really? :/

I'd really like to have a dialogue with you about this. Do you think it's on account of the mod's announcement? CB and Heartless have only continually grown more townie to me. Wanderer, eh, I'm not very comfortable with Wanderer, frankly, but I think it's in the town's best interests for me to table that suspicion.

I don't know what it is, maybe it's the power that goes to your head when you get the gun, but there's this inclination to want to prove Nacho wrong. Victor had it, and now it's seemingly seeping into you, pablito. I strongly, strongly think it's the wrong thing to focus on Nacho's "do not shoot" list. I also strongly disagree with your comment about not feeling comfortable taking a safe shot. By all means, take the safe shot! Scum is scum is scum. Build momentum for goodness sakes. One scum flip would do us wonders right now.

[RedCoyote]

I am sort of the town is a team thinker...so sadly it had not crossed my mind. In the early few pages I disregarded things as teasing, however, as the game went on I began to just read scum.

millar hasn't really been so vocal about it, but Lucky definitely has. It of course refering to the idea that he just wants to gun so he can shoot. Do you think that's a ploy of sorts?

---

However, I do NOT think we should focus on this during this DP, and you have my word that I will NOT shoot any of you 4 during this DP.

Fair enough, although I do not wish for you to shoot any of us and I don't like the idea of even having it on the table short of us four being the only ones left alive.

I will NOT take the safe shot, because I feel that Nacho tried to do that and got screwed.

Well, I just don't know about all this characterization of safe shots and unsafe shots. Mainly it seems like all shots are inherently risky anyway. Perhaps shooting a lurker is "safe" in the sense that you won't get much antagonism if it fails... but you'll still be dead. Is there really consolation in that?

I don't know, I feel like we're treading into political territory here and overthinking the game itself. There is a balance between a thoughtful shot and intuition though, wouldn't you agree?

But I do not think that shooting a mafia goon is going to get the information necessary to do good scum hunting.

I genuinely disagree with you here. A scum flip is inherently good. That's what all Mafia is about, I think, even or especially in this game. Goons/Vengeful treat each other differently than they treat town even if only on a subconscious level. That's what this game is all about, I think.

I fully expect vengeful to bus the goons or that the goons are trying to be the safe shot.

To me, the Victor flip goes a long way in disproving this... but then again that's just one player.

@RC - If the majority of town wants me to shoot someone (75%ish), how do you think I should proceed with this?

Ultimately it's your call. I've been unequivocal about my support for how Nacho approached the role. I think that's the best way to do it, but even doing it the best way, you know, in a manner of speaking, we're only really talking about increasing your odds at success by a few percent.

Something my old buddy SpyreX used to say, and I'm paraphrasing, "I always lynch scum, sometimes they just aren't mafia".

Anyway, I'm rambling, but it's funny when you look at Nacho and Victor as our first two gunbearers. They kind of approached the task as almost polar opposites. Nacho trying to think, think, think his way until he could think no more and Victor keeping his mouth shut about his thoughts and seemingly going with his gut.

I think you're much more in the Nacho camp, which I like and is how I generally try to scumhunt in traditional Mafia games, though there is something to be said for how intution strikes us. Knowing how to convey it is another thing.

...and I'm still rambling. My brutally honest answer is that if I am in the 75% group, take the shot. If I'm not, then don't.

You live with the consequences, after all. Not me!

I'd like everyone to give me a rank list of who'd you like to see me most shoot to who'd you like to see me to not shoot - with reasons why including all of your past views on these people too.

I'm kind of content with any of these shots, but I'll go back and do some digging to give you more content from my perspective later.

---

Do we have anything resembling a vote count?

Not really. Btw, Titus, if you haven't played this type of game before, you should take the time to read the ruleset as it is very much not like traditional Mafia. I say this because when I signed up I was unaware of how different it was.

[RedCoyote]

Eh, this game is starting to stagnate for me again. I've got to take some time and read over the last few pages.

[RedCoyote]

Lucky, if you say that one more time, I'm going to scream. Your avatar is too cute for school. Is that a new pokemon?

[RedCoyote]

People I will never shoot = Heartless, CB, Wanderer, Lucky, Feirei.

Here, I'll make it easy for pablito. Shoot anyone that isn't those five people + me.

[RedCoyote]

I like pablito's style in a way, but you must keep in mind I'm human and therefore a hypocrite. WE ARE DRAGGING, SON. COMMENCE THE

JIGGLING

SHOOTING.

[RedCoyote]

Also Maxwell is the one that was the most vehement against the Nacho plan of not shooting CB, RC, wanderer, Heartless and pablito. As such, I strongly encourage the five of us to plan to not shoot any of the others at least until 6 total mafia are dead. I'd also strongly encourage all gunbearers to do the same. Maxwell was against the list because, I suspect, he knew all five of us are town.

This paragraph is golden, pab. This is exactly how I feel. I'm sorry if I have been disappointing you with my activity, but I am happy you got us our first good shot.

[RedCoyote]

How is it possible to suck up to someone that is confirmed town? :/ Are you saying I'm being too trusting of him out something? Yeah, I'm going to talk to him like he's town because, uh, he is. What are you arguing here, vonflare? I've consistently supported Nacho's no kill list.

[RedCoyote]

Also Maxwell is the one that was the most vehement against the Nacho plan of not shooting CB, RC, wanderer, Heartless and pablito. As such, I strongly encourage the five of us to plan to not shoot any of the others at least until 6 total mafia are dead. I'd also strongly encourage all gunbearers to do the same. Maxwell was against the list because, I suspect, he knew all five of us are town.

This paragraph is golden, pab. This is exactly how I feel. I'm sorry if I have been disappointing you with my activity, but I am happy you got us our first good shot.

Suck-up

I agree here. vonflare - what's your read on RC. How about also, what's your read on Titus? Also, what's your read on anyone?

Is it my ego that's pointing out heartless made no note of this buddying

Y/N only if anyone desires to answer

I don't get this at all. We should all be "buddying" up to pablito. I was "buddying" up to him before he even got the gun. Victor's shot was ridiculous and went completely against anything I was preaching.

I don't mind people taking swipes at me for legitimate things, but this is really offbase. I don't see how Flubber or vonflare were acting genuine here. Possibly an argument made out of desperation? I think it's possible the scumteam is panicking a bit and are probably trying their damnedest to get pablito to discount the "don't shoot" list the way Victor did.

---

@RC - I like your posts, so I have nothing against you, but you are pretty religious about this no kill list - and you were also the last one that was added to it pretty much.

Yeah, I am. I'm not ashamed of that.

Further, the main reason I was the last one to be added to it was because it took me a week to psyche myself enough to go through the game.

I want to read over Max now, but vonflare's seemingly out of the blue attempt to bring heat on me has shot up some serious red flags. Especially given the fact the last and only time vonflare ever addressed me was to call me town in 382 (as an added bonus, he calls Max town in that post as well). As far as Flubber goes, I'm on record as calling him out for scum and nothing has changed that read.

[RedCoyote]

Also pablito's current shortlist is now: Suzune, Titus, vonflare, West9.

Please rank order those 4 from "most want to be shot" to "least want to be shot".

vonflare > Suzune > West9 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Titus

RC - If I were to make a "do not shoot" list, I'd honestly consider adding on MonkeyMan and Kari on there. Your thoughts?

I don't know, pab. I wouldn't be opposed to either choice for a not shoot. I wouldn't be prepared to shoot any of the slots that begged for a shot right now. This includes Lucky, Titus, MM's slot and Kari's slot (sort of). That said, that's a lot of players to clear on the back of this.

In any event, at this stage of the game, I still think we have a lot of other opportunities to choose from.

I will say this. I am now very much in the camp of shooting vonflare when I wasn't necessarily there before.

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Also the fact that one of his hard stances he took was against the do not shoot list 567 makes me think that none of people on that list are vengeful.

Agreed.

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@redcoyote that wasn't part of a case on anyone it was a discredit to one of the axiom's of the case on me

Explain more, please. I can guarantee you that you'd be my number one shot if I had the gun right now.

[RedCoyote]

I like coyotes 375 and maxwells response in 377, they look town.

Heartless, why do you think maxwell and coyote are scum?

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

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:/

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yeah, i was thinking about vonflare being such a popular target and that was kinda' bothering me, but there's little things like this that just get me

You guys are so confirmed town. I'm sorry I ever doubted y'all.

Flubber, once again, I have no idea what the heck you are talking about. Are you always so cryptic? Why does everything you say have to be a riddle?

[RedCoyote]

You better believe it, darlin.

[RedCoyote]

Are you drunk? What a coincidence! I am too!

How can you tell? Because I'm posting??? XD

[RedCoyote]

TTH, me and you are going to have to play some more. I think I like you more with every post. <3

[RedCoyote]

No worries, I'm going to be watching Hell's Kitchen here in a few minutes. MM, how about you defend vonflare/Flubber then, hm? I'm trying to get my man pab to shoot these guys... so you calling me scum I take it you like them?

[RedCoyote]

Let's start from square one, Flubber. What do you mean by "discredit to one of the axiom's of the case on me"?

[RedCoyote]

I still don't know what Flubber is talking about. I feel like he's just talking over my head. Okay, I'm supposed to be watching my TV show...

[RedCoyote]

I think pablito has enough to make a call at this point, and I await his decision.

[RedCoyote]

Hmmm... so who gets the gun? The scum decide, right?

[RedCoyote]

Wow, mod, it would've been nice if you got this straight before you left the country. :/

Has anyone PM'd Llama yet?

[RedCoyote]

Also, someone in the scumteam should tell us who will be receiving the gun next so that we can keep playing. Thanks.

[RedCoyote]

im assuming RC means one of the dead ones. i like catching scum fair and square. just seems more rewarding.

No, I meant one of the living ones. I'm a calculating bastard and I will hunt scum by any means necessary in the context of the thread.

[RedCoyote]

...and now for something completely different.

Titus, if I'm right, I will do that for you. If I'm wrong, well, that's what fate has in store for me.

Never shoot CB, Wanderer and Heartless. I would add Titus to that list. I'm also partial to Kari, but not as much as the other four.

Shoot: Flubbernugget

[RedCoyote]

Although since I was given the gun maybe I should've given that a second thought D:

[RedCoyote]

What have I done ... too trigger happy ... no, this can't be happening.

[RedCoyote]

gg all.

This game wasn't my cup of tea at all. Thanks for stepping in after the mod flaked, NM.