New York 185: Freshwater Frenzy!

[Bookitty]

/Confirm. <3

[Bookitty]

VOTE: lalaladucks

Cannibal.

Big Fat Finger of Suspicion

: Kitz and Silverwolf

Babyeaters.

[Bookitty]

I told you.

Babyeaters.

[Bookitty]

How do you know Egg is unfertilised?

Wait. I don't want to know, actually.

[Bookitty]

LOL-I don't want to know if he is or isn't. TMI

*puts hands over eyes, runs from thread*

Get back here!

Oh, actually, I have to go for a bit myself.

Never mind!

[Bookitty]

Can someone please explain all this SilverWolf love, please? Thanks.

The awesomeness of SilverWolf must be experienced firsthand.

Fortunately, you have this opportunity. Make the most of it.

I'm happy to be in a game with you, Cheetory!

[Bookitty]

Okay, I want to make a statement on behalf of myself and a few other people.

This game started last night. LAST NIGHT.

Some of us have full-time jobs at which we must at least pretend to work or otherwise look busy for extended periods during the day. This process can be exhausting. Sometimes we just come home and pretend to sleep for about 12 hours to prepare for our busy day of looking busy the next day.

Calling people lurkers because they don't post overnight or during part of the work day is NOT COOL. If you produce 13 pages of content over the course of one evening and a part of the next day, I'm darn sure going to read it, but it's going to take me some time because I am at work and I do not have unlimited free time to catch up to that degree.

So PLEASE cut it out.

I don't see the case on House, primarily because of what I just said. I have no idea what his schedule is like and it hasn't even been a day since the game opened.

I think Cheetory is town. Titus too, though I would not likely lynch her today even if I wasn't already town reading her because of general respect I have for a particular scumhunting technique she uses.

Leaning town on SilverWolf at the moment.

With two scum teams in play and a suspected SK, I could easily see Ozgin as scum trying to ensure that everyone knows he's a CITIZEN and not a Scummity-Scum-SCUM. It's odd. I don't get it.

Varsoon reaching out to me feels town, but he may know me well enough to know that, omg WIFOM! No, I do think he's town for the moment, but I want to reiterate: I SLEEP AT NIGHT. I WORK DURING THE DAY. Please don't start whining about my participation level before a full day has passed or I'll get VERY GROUCHY.

[Bookitty]

Sure.

Cheetory is actively engaging with people and pushing suspicions in a way that feels organic. While this could be a product of scum-vs-scum in this game, it doesn't feel like that to me.

Titus is addressing the game in ways I've seen her do as town. This doesn't prove anything for anyone else (though it gives me warm fuzzies toward her) but as I said I wouldn't lynch her anyway because she's way more effective with a flip or two to analyse. I am more than willing to give her the benefit of the doubt based on her play and accuracy in other games I've played with her.

[Bookitty]

Okay, first off:

UNVOTE:

I thought I'd done this before, but apparently not.

VOTE: Ozgin

I don't like the Citizen thing. It looks like a faked townslip, and I've seen some weird attempts to redirect attention elsewhere. I've also got my eye on Dragonspawn and Taly in relation to that, but these are associatives and I don't want to rely on them without a flip.

Mild read of RadiantCowbells as town, just based on the weird entrance with the self-vote and the seemingly random vote and switch. I see no reason for scum of any stripe to draw that kind of attention to themselves this early on. Actually, ever.

[Bookitty]

I think I'm inclined to let House pursue his own interests. I can see why you think it's more interesting, but I don't.

[Bookitty]

VOTE: Dragonspawn

I have a theory.

[Bookitty]

That's not the point though, or at least not my point. I'm not taking it as a VT claim. I'm wondering why we should believe it's a coincidence that you used the same uncommon phrase for it as the sample PM uses and then used it repeatedly.

This.

Also, Titus, I buy that Ozgin is scum. But we need to figure out associations while there's still time in the day.

[Bookitty]

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bushes. By regaining Ozgin, we find his buddies. But even the culturally is not that simple, scum may not want to crossover for several reasons. You find scum. You lynch them.

Voting off Ozgin relieves the pressure to do something else

We are literally less than two days into this game.

Quicklynching someone Day One is not a good plan. We have time.

[Bookitty]

I said I had a theory. When Ozgin's wagon really took off, both Taly and Dragonspawn were looking weird about it. What I think I know is that with two scum teams (We'll call them Thugs and Hoodlums, for clarity's sake):

The Thugs are going to try to protect Thugs and attack anyone they think might be Hoodlums or townies.
The Hoodlums are going to try to protect Hoodlums and attack anyone they think might be Thugs or townies.
But neither side can be really obvious about that. So they need to redirect, attack people who are attacking their team, whatever.

I got bad vibes from Taly and Dragonspawn about Ozgin's wagon. Taly's attitude is probably a bit more suspect than Dragon's right now, but both are pinging me. I don't know for sure that they are scum, but I wanted to let my vote marinate for a bit before I said anything outright.

That was my theory. I mentioned it before obliquely, but nothing has happened to dissuade me from it so far.

[Bookitty]

Well, I saw Mad Max and it was truly awesome. I want to see it again!

In other news, I AM in a neighbourhood with Dragonspawn and House. I felt (and others can express what they thought) that he was using the neighbourhood as a venue for testing the waters and trying out things before pushing his suspicions in the main thread. I've been a little reticent to use the hood as a discussion forum because I think it likely there are scum in it.

As for the Taly-Dragonspawn-Ozgin link, both of the first two seemed pretty wishy-washy on the Ozgin issue and I wanted to see how things played out. My initial vote on Dragon was essentially because House asked me to in the hood (not just me, but I was willing). The reactions haven't made me more comfortable with Taly either.

@Taly: What questions of yours have I missed, please?

[Bookitty]

Yes, I get it.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Ozgin

And before someone asks, no, I'm not going to say what it is that I get.

[Bookitty]

<3 Titus

[Bookitty]

I have a rock-solid townread on Titus by this point. She definitely tunnels as town and I see that here with no hesitation or backing off whatsoever.

Despite his fluctuating read on me, I'm pretty confident in House town based both on his actions here and in the hood thread. I don't see him directly interacting with me in the ways that he has if he were scum. I'm not AS confident here, but I'm pretty sure.

Egg is a strong townread too.

I don't care what Boonskiies and Dragonspawn are softing. I've never seen Boon this engaged, so I'm going to hold off judgment on him until later, but Dragon was legitimately pretty suspicious in the hood.

Ozgin is misrepping a bit. Both Taly and Dragon were looking elsewhere and being pretty noncommittal about Ozgin-scum or Ozgin-town for a while -- Taly was worse about it, but I had both the thread and the hood as evidence about Dragon. It looked like to me that they were both trying to deflect from the Ozgin wagon without actually taking a direct stand on it. It's not the wishy-washiness in general, it's the specific noncommittal way they addressed the Ozgin wagon that was bothering me.

I like Anen and I think he's town here (these are not correlating statements, but they are both true). Same with SilverWolf. These aren't the townreads to last the ages, but they're good enough for now.

Ozgin continues to be suspicious because imo he's trying to say that he's being caught for the wrong reasons by some people and for the right ones by others. This is a type of parsing I rarely see from town playing to a town wincon. It smacks of survivalism, something I don't think is out of character for Ozgin as town, but it's much more measured and less direct than my most recent experience of that from him.

[Bookitty]

@Bookitty, can you go into more detail about your right and wrong reasons on Ozgin?

Yes, but it will be later this afternoon; I'm going into a meeting in nine minutes. :p

[Bookitty]

Okay, the brouhaha begins with this:

Do you not realize how hard it's going to be for me not to be able to laugh and have fun at night with you in a QT? Being a citizen is lonely ;_;

Ozgin really likes this; he even quotes himself a couple of paragraphs later in the same post, something I've never seen anyone do before. It's worth noting that this was during what looks to be a reachout to former scumbuddies SilverWolf and Cheetory.


Here's a link to Taly (since I'm doing this, I'm going to do it comprehensively):

Also, I feel like Taly is over-analyzing, kinda digging for evidence that might not be there. Does anyone know if this is normal per his meta?

It LOOKS like it's an accusation, but it's actually not. He's accusing Taly of scumhunting too much.

I'm going to bed, I'll be back tomorrow.

This game is heating up, and I kinda like it. This is the most excited I've been ever to play a normal game as a citizen.

Here we reach critical mass on the citizen thing. I said in the neighbourhood that I thought it was as if Ozgin wanted to fake a townslip. I don't see a reason to stick to this wording over and over unless you've 1) studied your role PM extensively, which I don't see a reason for a VT to do, or 2) you've studied the sample role PM extensively, which I don't see a reason for a townie to do.

As far as Titus' vote on me, her feelings seem to be hurt. . Whatever, I don't have time for crying over rhetoric, I have to go to bed so I can scumhunt while I'm awake tomorrow.

This is an attempt to discredit and dismiss what seem like pretty rational suspicions, imo at least.

@SilverWolf - Does it matter that I'm "claiming" Citizen? Even if I were a town PR, I sure as hell wouldn't out as such. Citizen is my way of claiming that I'm town, if that's what you're asking.

This is terrible. It's like he read the sample role PM and then didn't understand it. It doesn't give me faith that he's town in ANY WAY.

Now to what Titus actually asked me for:

Post 309 is practically an explanation in itself.

Varsoon's reasons are bad:

I just picked Varsoon out because I didn't like his "reason." You weren't open about your reads, and you're highlighted in my excel sheet (not the same way Varsoon is, but still highlighted) so you're not free of scrutiny yourself, but your reactions and action as a player have pinged you as more town than Varsoon in my opinion.

Cheetory's reasons are good:

I like Cheetory's push on me, as well. He's seemingly fair and level-headed about it.

Titus's reasons are bad:

The one, half substantial point you have on me is my misuse of the term "Citizen," and if you can't get over that then I'm just going to fucking ignore you. I'm not arguing the citizen point anymore. Oh, and don't try to say I followed a pattern in a game you didn't follow, unless you want to keep being pathetic and misrepping me. Oh wait, that's your thing this game, isn't it dear?

TSO's reasons are good:

TSO is probably just trying to add pressure to me. I just don't get that there's a fucking wagon on me based on my "misuse" of terminology.

Egg joins the fray:

@Egg - I gather your point on me is the whole, "It's weird I said citizen, I say it means I'm "town" but the first post says "Citizen," therefore I read the OP."
Well of course I read the OP, Wake asked us to do so at least twice.

Now things start switching up:

I think Titus is misguided on my wagon. I think she's pretty towny, she just has no idea what the hell she's talking about right now.

I didn't quote all the insults, but there were plenty directed at someone he now thinks is just misguided.

I feel like bookitty is kinda scummy for following her mindlessly, and her re-vote back onto me makes no sense.

I'm scummy for following Titus's logic, while she is just misguided.

TSO not giving any reason for voting me is strange, as well (other than him cringing at my posts).

What makes a man turn to a life of neutrality?

Varsoon is lurching towards null/town territory again. I don't like his playstyle, it conflicts with mine greatly, but I'm starting to doubt it's as anti-town as I thought.

Varsoon, you magnificent bastard, you might not be scum after all!

And here's the icing on the cake:

My flaily and aggressive response is what's being read as scummy, and I guess I understand that. I lost my cool, and I guess that makes me kinda stupid/childish. I can't really argue that (I'm assuming that's what TSO/Anen are scumreading me for), but for those who are voting me because I said citizen, I think you need to really re-evaluate your read on me. If you wanna lynch me for my overblown reaction, that's fine, that's entirely my fault. But if you think my reaction was town-like aggression, then I don't think you should lynch me.

This dichotomy isn't really a thing. Ozgin's play is the sum total of his play, and people who were suspicious of him for the reiterated Citizen thing (which really does look like a "hey, look at me, I'm obviously town, see my townslip, dammit, look at it!) can continue being suspicious for the over-the-top overreaction to their initial suspicions. The recent drastic change in tone and reads (they might be town after all, and there are good reasons for thinking I'm scummy, but some of those folks are scum on my wagon!) is not filling my heart with visions of puppies and kittens and baby birds, either.

I will say with some degree of confidence that there almost certainly is scum on Ozgin's wagon. That's the nature of multiball. I think he's placating some of the people on that wagon and his responses seem somewhat off given his fury and insult levels earlier on. It's like he realised he was not getting anywhere with the stick, so he now has some delicious candied carrots to share around. I'm sure they aren't poisoned. Well, pretty sure.

[Bookitty]

No, I understand exactly what a Citizen/Vanilla Townie is. I'm saying what I meant by what I said. It's my dialect.

Can you please point me in the direction of other games in which you have used this term, which you claim to be YOUR dialect?

[Bookitty]

Can you link me to one of the games on EpicMafia, please?

I'd be very grateful.

As for the rest of your post, it's essentially just you saying, No it's not, no I'm not, and there's no point in addressing that without verifying what you're saying about your dialect for myself. I've played with you before, you didn't use the term, so I'm curious to know why you're using it in this game and not in all games here since you're claiming it as your dialect.

[Bookitty]

For those curious, the game is Delicious Mafia and Ozgin doesn't use his dialect once.

[Bookitty]

Bookitty: Ozgin's life is now in Varsoon's hands. Read the thread.

I get that, but I prefer to pursue my own suspicions. I think Varsoon is town, but since the Citizen=vanilla townie is explicitly referred to in Wake's initial post, Ozgin's half-knowledge of flavour is really suspicious.

If he were actually a VT, he would know he was claiming VT. But Ozgin seems not to know that.
If it were a dialect he commonly used, why wasn't it used in the prior game I played with him?
Why specifically in THIS game where citizen actually denotes a specific role?

I use Citizen when I play (much shorter) games of Mafia on EpicMafia to say town, unless Citizen is actually a role in the game I'm playing on EpicMafia.

If he were a Citizen, then he would know that it was actually a role. If he's using it generically as a synonym for Town, why is he choosing to do so in THIS game where it denotes a specific role (when he claims he doesn't do that on EM) and not in the other game I played with him?

It doesn't add up.

[Bookitty]

He used town a lot. Look at his ISO, SilverWolf.

[Bookitty]

Varsoon, you know that the Vanilla Townie=Citizen thing is also in the first post, right?

At one point you say that isn't so (I'm tired right now, but I'll quote it for you if you need) but it IS so. It's all there in Wake's first post. If you're basing your theory of Ozgin-town on that, you need to rethink it.

[Bookitty]

I was just asking you a question on why you didn't think Dragon was scum, since you've never given a major reason why you think Dragon is town other than stating that he is your friend from all I've seen.

You can't see it, but I just slammed my head into my desk. Now my desk has a big head-shaped dent in it. Why do you hate my desk?

[Bookitty]

My point was that Ozgin, as scum, would only have the OP as a resource for flavor without explicit knowledge that 'Citizen' entailed only VT meaning

This is where the point of confusion comes in, because it's not true. I haven't been able to follow your logic at all points, so I was asking for clarification.

I addressed why I don't believe that citizen is a dialect thing and I've asked Ozgin for an example from EpicMafia. No answer yet. I'm thinking I'll sign up anyway and search for myself.

Is your ability to clear Ozgin only limited to Ozgin? Could it be used on anyone else?

[Bookitty]

Titus is addressing the game in ways I've seen her do as town. This doesn't prove anything for anyone else (though it gives me warm fuzzies toward her) but as I said I wouldn't lynch her anyway because she's way more effective with a flip or two to analyse. I am more than willing to give her the benefit of the doubt based on her play and accuracy in other games I've played with her.

I've actually explained my townread on Titus. She does tunnel as part of her playstyle, so that's null either way. Please stop misrepping my reasons for townreading her.

[Bookitty]

I'm just going to fucking concede and claim Citizen, I don't give a fuck about it at this point. I was expressing my loneliness as a citizen because I have no powerrole and I'm not in a neighborhood, and it's kinda lonely because there are multiple hoods, multiple scum teams, and a third party, and I'm literally entirely solo (where most of you guys have places out-of-thread to discuss things and such).

1. What was the nonsense about a dialect, then? It's certainly not one you can provide any proof regarding and there's evidence countering it.

2. I believe I'm echoing Titus's question: How did you know there were hoods at the point that you posted your loneliness?

[Bookitty]

Bookitty said:

Ozgin really likes this; he even quotes himself a couple of paragraphs later in the same post, something I've never seen anyone do before. It's worth noting that this was during what looks to be a reachout to former scumbuddies SilverWolf and Cheetory.

A reachout to my former scumbuddies, are you shitting me? SilverWolf has scumread me most of this game and I expressed my distrust for Cheetory early in this game.

Ozgin was pretty vehement in responding that it wasn't a reach-out to you guys when I characterised it that way.

[Bookitty]

A reachout is not the same as buddying. If I'd meant to say the latter, I would have. Ozgin has overreacted like this to practically EVERYTHING anyone has said, first vehemently denying it, then saying it's true. Read his ISO, Cheetory. Titus was worth insulting horribly and dismissing as an emotional player but he thinks she's town.

Seriously, read it over.

[Bookitty]

@boo, why is thinking someone is wrong/playing badly and town a scummy thing for Ozgin to do?

It's not that.

Ozgin used every tactic in the book to discredit and dismiss Titus. He called her emotional, he was aggressive toward her, he dismissed her arguments and refused to address them. Yet he claims to think she is town.

He addressed my arguments rationally, apologised if I thought he misrepped me, and generally treated me with kid gloves. But he claims to think I'm scum.

So explain to me why he's trashing someone he thinks is town while treating someone he thinks is scum so much more nicely?

[Bookitty]

Cheetory, you're not filling me with confidence regarding your alignment when you're defending Ozgin without having actually looked at his reasoning for his reads. That's bad. You know that, right?

[Bookitty]

I am accustomed to the way Titus is pushing her Ozgin vote. I've played with her a few times before.

Ozgin is saying that it's okay to be suspicious of him for the way he overreacted, but not okay to be suspicious of him for the Citizen thing to which he overreacted. His reads seem nearly random in how he divides up who is okay for suspecting him and who is suspicious for suspecting him. The entire sum total of it looks like a desperate attempt to salvage a bad situation.

So yeah, I'm a-okay with Titus playing the way she plays. That goes for everybody else too. She's putting herself on the line for her reads; that's a lot more townie than just sitting on the sidelines critiquing things. (No, that's not meant for you, Cheetory, because you're not on the sidelines anymore.)

[Bookitty]

Why would he need to fake any of his reads in multiball though?

Please tell me this is not a serious question.

[Bookitty]

Boo I feel like you're picking at the baddest angles on what I'm saying here.
Are you looking for an excuse to scumread me, or what?

I'm trying to figure out your motivations.

If I said to you (not in so many words) that I hadn't really read over the person I was hard-defending, you would be a little twitchy, right?

I'll wait for you to read it over, but I think it's fair to be twitchy about someone who you had as a townread but who is defending someone else basically blind on the back of a not-very-well-explained townping.

[Bookitty]

And Boo's slinging shit at me for not even trying to understand what I'm saying in the big picture and then basically insinuating that I'm scummy or an idiot, idc which, she's being unfair in either categorization.

I have done none of this. Can you point me to the posts in which you feel I have?

[Bookitty]

Isn't best friend just "You know X is town. They know you are town"? Or am I misunderstanding that?

That's how I have seen those roles, anyway.

[Bookitty]

For those curious, the game is Delicious Mafia and Ozgin doesn't use his dialect once.

I already linked this game.

[Bookitty]

I don't have a scumread on you, Varsoon. I don't know just why you'd think so. (Hint: if you can point to what makes you think so, I'd be grateful.)

Also, if you're soft claiming what I think you're soft claiming, it doesn't clear him. Think about it.

I did not think you were buddying me, which I think connotes scum; I thought you were reaching out to me based on past experience, which is alignment-neutral.

I'm good with a Lala lynch but I'm sticking with my Ozgin suspicions.

I have some pretty strong townreads but I'm not interested in sharing them right now because I prefer cross-kills if at all possible.

[Bookitty]

@Silverwolf:

From my perspective, the lalaladucks wagon sprang up as a counter to the Ozgin wagon. I like the Ozgin wagon. It has big shiny wheels and it's bright red and says scum on the side.

Now, lalala could be scum on the other side, I guess, but her wagon doesn't feel organic but really like a response to an Ozgin-scum wagon that people don't want to go through. The resistance to the OZGIN wagon is the interesting thing imo; people are jumping out of the woodwork and saying things like "I guess Ozgin could be scum, but look, LOOK, a shiny new wagon of a different color!" and I'm happy with the wagon I'm pushing right now.

Maybe it's all in perspective, but the counterwagons that keep being proposed just make Ozgin look even more like a sure thing to me.

[Bookitty]

<3 House. I still think that if you read Ozgin's ISO and really look at the contradictions and varying explanations he's given, you would see things my way.

[Bookitty]

^^ That actually goes for everyone.

[Bookitty]

Well, I didn't write that, so it's incorrect in the first place.

I think that it's a little different than that. The most likely scenario to ME is that Ozgin saw the initial role PM and thought, hey, I can earn some towncred by "townslipping" and saying Citizen instead of town. Then people will read me as town because I accidentally used the term Citizen instead of town. But then he says that he meant it as town-alignment, not specifically VT. The same rules post that had the role PM also mentioned that Citizen=VT, but he didn't seem to know that until it was pointed out that Citizen DID = VT. If he was actually a Citizen, then he would know that, I would think.

So then he tries to say it's something he always says. But it's not. It's not something he's done before on this site and it's not something he can point to on any other site.

The shifting explanations and the forced nature (and repetition) of the citizen thing when he's never used that term for town before is scummier than anything else anyone has done imo.

[Bookitty]

The timing of it just isn't even valuable to scum as a faketownslip though?

How do you figure?

I don't think Ozgin thought it would get him the attention it did, no, but developing towncred is always valuable, isn't it?

[Bookitty]

No, you're missing a point.

I don't think Ozgin at ALL knew he was claiming VT. I don't think he read that at all when he came up with the "I'll use citizen and then it will be perceived as a townslip" thing. His later play bears that out; he denied being a VT, remember?

I think he read the sample role PM, misunderstood it and made his fake "townslip" which then got him into all kinds of hot water and resulted in several different stories (if it's his dialect, surely he USES his dialect, otherwise why would it BE his dialect?) about the situation.

I don't think he was playing for attention. But I ask you: If Ozgin were a Citizen, wouldn't he know that that meant VT? If he's not a Citizen, why would he use it to describe himself and then lie about it to us later?

[Bookitty]

Ozgin was just in a game where VTs were called Citizen.
Again, why is he not actual VT who realizes he fucked up by claiming VT and is trying to backtrack to make it seem like he didn't just narrow scumkills?

First, link me up.

Second, if that's the case, why wouldn't he DOUBLY know he was claiming VT?

[Bookitty]

@Cheetory: Do you think that Ozgin knew that Citizen referred to a specific role here when he made his claims?

If he did, then why would he make that claim and then back off it and try to disavow it?

If he didn't, then where did he come up with the Citizen thing in the first place? He was scum in the game you linked and never used the term once. This is the first verifiable use of something he called his dialect.

Also, if he didn't, then do you think he read his role PM?

These things are inconsistent. I feel like it's obvious that they are.

[Bookitty]

Then why lie (and yes, he lied) to us when he realised his mistake, Cheetory? Lying IS alignment-indicative, regardless of whether we still enforce lynch all liars or not.

Why claim it's a dialect he always uses when he didn't even use it in the game you linked?

Have you ever been in a game in which scum fake town-slipped, Cheetory? Why do you think they did it?

[Bookitty]

I'd appreciate it if people could give me the botd enough to at least consider where I'm coming from.

I don't see what you're getting at here. I think you're wrong, but how am I not giving you the benefit of the doubt? Arguing with you IS giving you the benefit of the doubt; if I thought you were scum, why would I bother?

@Silverwolf: A lynch is out of the question? That would settle it, wouldn't it?

[Bookitty]

@cheetory: Okay, I'll line it out for you as clearly as I can and then you can return the favour.

1. Ozgin makes an awkward and repeated reference (I remember three times distinctly, two in the first post) to himself as a Citizen. It's not something he has done before when I played with him and it's not something he's done anywhere before that he can show. I even asked for links to another site (which would have been annoying to register, all that) just to try to verify this. He says it's unverifiable anywhere even though it's supposedly his dialect.

2. Citizens in this game are VT. Ozgin claims he was using it as town-alignment. He would know that it meant VT if he read his role PM. The bit about VT=Citizen is not right with the sample PM, it's in the rules. Ozgin said he read the rules several times as

required by scripture

requested by the Mod. So if that part is true, then he read the part about Citizen=VT several times. Since he's now claimed VT, he ought to have known that from his own Role PM as well.

3. I think that he looked at the role PM given as a town sample, didn't read the rules very carefully and tried for a fake townslip. In my experience, fake townslips ONLY work if they happen when no pressure is on. They have to be "discovered" to be effective. This is equally true of real townslips.

4. He then attacks Titus for noticing it (and the inconsistency). His tone is amazingly uneven and not what I would expect of a townie who "knows he fucked up." Instead, it's aggressive and frankly pretty nasty. He still doesn't seem to know that VT=Citizen, even though I would have checked my role PM like five times by that point. Wouldn't you?

5. I think you're projecting about how YOU would feel and not reading what Ozgin actually said. I think he's scum and I think reading his ISO (and contextual things) will demonstrate that much more effectively than I can.

Your turn.

[Bookitty]

@Bookitty: Lying isn't alignment indicative. I lie all the time as both aligns. Sometimes a good lie can win the game as either alignment. :l
Lies are great. Lies are important. People that wanna lynch all liars wanna take the fun out of the game.
Because we could play a game where no one posts and all we do is vote and use our powers.
But that'd suck.

I don't lie as town. Are you implying that I take the fun out of games by not gambitting or outright lying?



Also, if it was a basic part of his dialect, shouldn't Ozgin be able to present at least one instance of using citizen outside this game? He didn't even do it in a game in which citizen meant VT the same way it does here. Not once. Not one solitary time. You don't get to call something part of your dialect if you NEVER SAY IT. You just don't.

[Bookitty]

I actually think you're really fun, Boo. But please don't take lying and rhetoric away from me. There's a lot of people who want that, and this is all I have, Bookitty. This is all I've done with my life.

I <3 you, and you know it. But I hate it when you lie to me

SRSLY, though, I asked Ozgin to provide me with ANY evidence of the citizen thing. He said they were only on chat games that are not recorded. He couldn't provide me with any example outside this game at all. Cheetory gave me a game in which VTs were called citizen, but Ozgin never used the term. I played a game with Ozgin and he never used the term. I did the due diligence on the dialect thing, and it looks to be false.

What's the town motivation for lying and saying you make a habit of something when clearly you don't?

[Bookitty]

Also preferably, can we have Ozgin post at least 1 more time before he is hammered?

This isn't really up to us. He's been hanging back and letting other people defend him for a while.

[Bookitty]

– there's another Neighbourhood which consists of House, DragonSpawn, Bookitty, ? who was the other two here?

Kitz and Egg.

[Bookitty]

Also, Taly. Don't forget about Taly.

This more. I don't have Lalala as town but Taly is more scum to me.

[Bookitty]

@Boonskiies, it's because House always does it. When someone always gambits, it's hard to trust their results.

Kitz, "Wat" reaction to getting an innocent was Ozgin level bad. Ask yourself this.

Why would Kitz doubt a cop getting an innocent on her? But say next to nothing about the original claim.

Yeah. And I was developing such a lovely townread on her

[Bookitty]

Most definitely. Especially if Ozgin flips scum, which I think will happen.

I have to commute home now but I'll be on later if the thread is still open.

[Bookitty]

Kitz is up there for me now too, so don't forget her either.

[Bookitty]

I am not caught up yet after the invasion of the relatives, but I will probably vote Kitz based on YesterDay once I've read; that will be this afternoon, I think.

[Bookitty]

I'm back from the weekend (in hell) and I'll be reading up. I still think I'm going to vote Kitz, though. But I haven't seen what's happened ToDay.

[Bookitty]

@Titus: What did you mean to say when you said Blue, please? What was blue autocorrected from?

[Bookitty]

Meh. I'm sad Titus is scum.

VOTE: Titus

[Bookitty]

I believe she's L-1. If I hammered, though, I'm okay with that. I do believe in scumslips, I do I do I do.

[Bookitty]

Or, that. Yeah, I think she's been hammered now.

[Bookitty]

Sorry for my absence; I had a bunch of stuff to do!

@Cheetory: You get that this is multi-ball, right, and that scum have to hunt the other scum and that they don't know who the other scum are?

So why, if I were scum, would I hard-clear someone else as town in that way?

I STILL do not feel like I was that wrong because Titus was NOT groupscum and honestly, I hadn't noticed that we even had an SK in this setup.

So what is your point again?

[Bookitty]

You get that this is multi-ball, right, and that scum have to hunt the other scum and that they don't know who the other scum are?

Well that's literally the point of my question to you on why you decided to clear Varsoon based on Ozgin seeming like scum to you.
Please respond to that.

So why, if I were scum, would I hard-clear someone else as town in that way?

The thing is that you didn't hardclear her? You literally changed your mind and voted for her? :/
But okay, let's pretend that you did hard-clear her.
Is buddying not a thing? Staying on Titus's good side would be beneficial for scum because she can get very focused and aggressive in her pushes in a way that's undesirable. Keeping out of her crosshairs by buddying her could be a good way to do that, no? You changed your stance on her 100% from hardtown to obvscum when it became opportunistic to do so, in such a manner that doesn't strike me as being 100% genuine.

The comment about Varsoon was directly related to Ozgin and was a sarcastic comment about his reads. Reread the whole thing with Ozgin saying it and it's going to make a lot more sense. Like this:

Ozgin: "Varsoon, you magnificent bastard..."

I thought that would be obvious from context.

Yeah, if someone I'm hard townreading makes a scumslip it's going to change my read on them, hard as that may be to believe. I'm not incapable of being wrong and my reads often change over the course of the game; the posts you quoted came WELL before the scumslip. Are you seriously arguing that I should have "stayed the course" even when I wasn't sure of Titus-town anymore?

[Bookitty]

At the point I voted Titus I wasn't absolutely sure, no. But there's no way to proceed with the game if we don't find out, imo. I was confident enough to vote her. As it turns out, she was third party and the scumslip was completely meaningless, even though it netted us the SK.

You don't need to ISOdive. Read the thing you picked out in that post IN the post, including the quote right above it. I don't think it's something you can miss if you actually read the post carefully.

[Bookitty]

Silverwolf, you are aware I was V/LA for some of the time you are talking about?

Yeah, I thought Ozgin was going to flip scum. It's interesting to me that you're using pretty much the EXACT SAME wording that was used in my hood regarding my push on Ozgin, though. We haven't discussed it out here, so what's up with that?

[Bookitty]

i. No, Cheetory, I can't. My hood will know what I'm talking about.

ii. Why do you care? You claim to think I'm scum anyway, so what possible difference could it make?

[Bookitty]

Or, I dunno, when I have time to read the game and actually catch up to it? I was here PLENTY before anyone was suspecting me and I honestly don't give a crap if you do suspect me at this point, because I'm starting to read you and Cheetory as tag-team scum.

I can't quote from my hood. I'll put it up to people in my hood whether or not you said pretty much exactly what they said. They can tell you or not, however they please.

pedit: I don't care about your read on me, Cheetory, because I think it's fake and I don't care if you try to get me lynched because it will just highlight how fake your read is when I flip town. So do your worst

[Bookitty]

I think her Ozgin push was genuine. It almost convinced me to change my mind and was much better than Titus' case.

Right there.

[Bookitty]

The difference would be their reads towards you and various other things as opposed to being even more scumread on?
This one stings as scummy, especially how the response is.

I think they're scum.

Ergo, nothing I say will make a difference on a faked scumread. I don't know for sure if Cheetory is scum, but I think it's interesting that SilverWolf chimes in to support this read when even Cheetory is saying it's not very strong (and I disproved half of it already, by his own admission). Yet this only serves to strengthen this admittedly weak scumread when I disprove part of it. To which I say, fake scumread is fake and I don't care about it.

VOTE: SilverWolf

There you go.

[Bookitty]

Meh, I've been avoiding this game because I kind of lost my temper at Silverwolf and Cheetory.

I'm sorry if I said anything to hurt feelings or to make people feel bad. I voted SilverWolf out of temper, too, so that needs to go away.

UNVOTE:

I still think Cheetory is scummy. I think it's weird that SilverWolf used almost the same wording about my read on Ozgin that was used in my hood; this makes me nervous, but it's not really enough to vote on yet. If we do find scum in our hood, though, I will be revisiting this. I'm rereading Kitz because I was willing to dismiss the "wat" comment as not very telling, but recent posts have made me less dismissive of possible Kitz-scum.

And ANYONE who thinks that Varsoon buddying me means that I'm his scumbuddy needs to think about it more, because that's making no kind of sense. It doesn't mean I'm town, because I could be on the other scum team from Varsoon, but it should pretty well rule out the idea that we were on the same team. Pushing this nonsense is why I lost my temper in the first place, because it is counter to all known logic and reason.

I'm rapidly getting to this point in the game, though:

Spoiler:

[Bookitty]

Sure. Hold up.

[Bookitty]

I don't lose my temper often, but I think it's ONLY been when I was town and being pushed for what I regarded as unfair/dumb reasons.

Here's an example I remember:

Newbie 1551

Late game. Similar bad logic being used imo.

[Bookitty]

I don't think I've lost my temper other than that recently.

Sorry. You're free to delve my meta all you like, but it just doesn't happen much. I don't recall it ever happening as scum.

Examples of bad logic:

My interactions with Titus were weird -- so... what's the point? She didn't flip as groupscum, so what does my believing in her as town at first have to do with the price of tea in China?

Varsoon tried to buddy me, so clearly he is my buddy -- um, what? How does THAT work, again?

[Bookitty]

Also, have you ever faked being angry as scum to try and disarm momentum on a wagon on you?

No, I don't believe so. Again, I've been around a LONG time so it could have happened but I don't remember it ever happening, so I'm going to say no.

[Bookitty]

In my head you were either buddying Titus and then realized she was scum or you legitimately thought Titus was town the entire time and were just really okay with the outcome no matter how she flipped. I really fail to see how that's bad logic, Boo.

I thought she was town. That was shaken a bit by the Ozgin flip because I also think she's accurate as town. Then she slipped and I believe in scumslips, so I voted her. I hoped I was wrong, and it turns out I WAS wrong, because I thought she was groupscum and she wasn't. I could understand negative reactions to my being wrong about Ozgin, but the Titus thing makes no sense to me anyway. To me the progression is pretty obvious.

[Bookitty]

-First of all, I learned the hard way to never discount anything as "scum would never do this" "they would never be partners with so and so because of this" because I've been burned very badly by it in the past. You and House and T S O worked together a lot in Delicious and in that game you were not very engaged in the game. Since this day started you have not been very engaged in the game at all.

I'm not very engaged in this game. That's a fact, and I'm not even going to argue it right now. It's the beginning of summer semester and I'm being slammed with a lot of things at work, so I'm distracted and dealing with stuff in every area of my life. I'm not very engaged in any of my games at the moment. As with most people, my ability to commit and to focus comes and goes.

I'm not saying it's impossible that Varsoon could buddy his scumbuddy. I'm saying that seems to be an afterthought, like "Bookitty is scum, let me find reasons that she is scum" as opposed to a primary reason. It's not the first thing you would think of. And when you and Cheetory start double-teaming me and picking out practically everything I've posted as a reason to scumpaint me, I'm going to become frustrated and to feel like you're trying to railroad me. That's how I felt. Rather than throwing a fit in the thread, as seems to be the fashionable response, I left for a while. I thought that was the actual responsible thing to do.

[Bookitty]

I wasn't mad at you. I don't particularly like being told to fuck off, but that's pretty much independent of alignment. YOU lost your temper there, not me.

[Bookitty]

Deja'vu.
No need to discuss that particular detail.

What is this referring to, please?

[Bookitty]

You were not the only one pushing me at the time, SilverWolf. Cheetory pushed me on two points and when I disproved one of them, he decided I was even scummier. That doesn't make logical sense, and then you piled on (all this from my perspective). I don't think any of your points are good, and certainly they aren't valid since I know my alignment. But the combined mass of what I see as crap arguments pissed me off, so I took my ball and went home for a while.

I've returned with a much less fragile attitude since I've actually gotten some stuff done in real life and I'm not under extreme pressure right now.

[Bookitty]

Sure, but it might be the morning before I can do a real post about this; I'm working on a writing deadline and I'm procrastinating, but that might be more procrastination than I can afford.

I'll try to get to it later tonight, but please forgive me if it's not until tomorrow.

[Bookitty]

As promised, why I think Cheetory is scum:

I didn't think this at first, to be fair. His entry into the game didn't ping me at all, even the silly random.org joke vote. That all seems pretty normal to me. I actually liked his wagoning early on.

Here's where the problem starts (and I didn't think it was a problem at the time, but it really is):

/confirmang
Early SPERM catches the EGG
Teeheee

VOTE: Skybird

I trust Cheetory.

How's it going, shmucks?

Yeah, Varsoon buddying, that's nothing new. Here's Cheet's response:

Ozgin. Listen.
I'm a trustworthy guy.
Get on board the trust-me-train and get this skybird wagon out the muthafuckin station.

ALSO WHY AREN'T YOU HAPPY TO BE IN ANOTHER GAME WITH ME.
UGH.

Here, I think, is where I start becoming twitchy about Cheetory:

Idfk I know I'm defending Ozgin a lot, and while it might seem dumb because I'm not even strongly townreading him or anything, I just don't like the angles people are choosing to push on him atm. It feels too self-assured, sleazy and misdirect-ish.

I would need to actually look at his reasoning for townreading Titus and scumreading you to not just be talking hot air right now though, so give me some time and I'll try to decide how I feel about that from a more informed POV.

I'm not going to follow every single thing a player has done. Ozgin's tone pinged me as townish for a while. That's more important than tracing every single thing that the guy has said and understanding it.

He's defending Ozgin without any really good reasons and without having really read things over. This bothered me at the time and I said so.

Cheet offers to do an ISOdive of me for House and never delivers. It's weird, because he doesn't do it even when he starts trying to push me as scum on this game day. It's like that offer just vanished into thin air. This REALLY bothered me, and I would still like him to do what he promised he would.

He's not really reading the game, including things he is quoting, or he wouldn't have made the fairly obvious mistake he made here:

@Bookitty, can you please explain at me why your wariness of Varsoon stopped just because of Ozgin?

Bookitty wrote:Varsoon, you magnificent bastard, you might not be scum after all!

You know this is multiball, so you being like "oh man Ozgin and Varsoon aren't scum together so Varsoon isn't scum!" feels weird.

I was being sarcastic in pointing out how Ozgin's reads seemed to be exceptionally fluid; Cheetory picks up on that when I TELL him so here:

Bookitty wrote:You don't need to ISOdive. Read the thing you picked out in that post IN the post, including the quote right above it. I don't think it's something you can miss if you actually read the post carefully.

You're right on this point though. >.<
I get what you were saying here now.

But "didn't get it" when he read it in context in the original post.

Cheetory is paying just about enough attention to justify his supposed scumread and even counterevidence (as presented above) only serves to increase his scumread. It's not a reasonable progression and it makes me think he's scum.

[Bookitty]

You didn't SAY it. You voted me right after you agreed that half your case was crap.

Your vote said it for you.

[Bookitty]

Okay, my bad. Let me find the quotes. Just a sec.

[Bookitty]

Yep, you're right, naked vote way earlier.

I like the inherent oxymoron.
"I'm an arrogant ass but I refuse to acknowledge that I might be being an arrogant ass here"
You should sig that shit.

VOTE: Bookitty

Then you gave your "case":

Cheetory, I don't have much experience with bookitty. What specifically is pinging you about her?

I mean I don't have a huge amount of experience with Boo either?
But the general idea is:
i) She pushes Ozgin seriously thinking he's scum. Once he flips we haven't seen anything from her since, which kind of comes across as her trying to lay low IMO. Her reads are too focused this game and it makes me think she's trying to get by on focusing on one person at a time without having to associate herself with anyone else.
ii) She let go of her hardtownread on Titus a little too easily.
iii) And now I have the added casedness of her read on Varsoon developing in a manner that would suggest she's only hunting for one scumteam.
Boom. Case.

My issue with Boo isn't that she hardpushed Ozgin.
I don't think anyone who was pushing that didn't seriously believe that he was going to flip scum.
I just think that she was worried about the fallout over it and has been trying to fly under the radar.
The focus is on the behavior after the Ozginflip rather than before it.

Since I was busy with work stuff and writing in the intervening period, your point i) is negated. Your point iii was negated. And then you say:

In any case, Boo I'm actually pretty sure you're scum this game.

Even though point i. is just wrong, point iii is the result of your not reading what I wrote, and point ii is that I trusted Titus until her scumslip and then I didn't.

Yeah, your certainty seems justified for sure. (Hint: This also is sarcasm, like the Varsoon comment you misread earlier.)

You did catch me out, though. I saw you had voted me but didn't realise you'd slammed down a naked vote earlier, so I thought it came in post 2328. My bad.

[Bookitty]

I have no idea what you're softclaiming. If you're implying you have some sort of result that indicates I'm scum, then you're lying.

You've already soft-claimed, why not come out and give your ~other reason~ outright, please? What's the downside at this point?

[Bookitty]

All this to out my power role? Seriously?

Nice.

So you couldn't have just said that, rather than scumming it up making up crap about me that made no kinda sense? Now you've outed us both, so that's awesome.

[Bookitty]

As opposed to your faked scumread on me based on something that you could have just said, if you were going to claim anyway.

I'll tell you for sure something I know. You're a tracker, not a watcher, because I did visit Anen last night as a Vanilla Cop and I didn't kill her, so someone else must have. So how would I know THAT if I HAD killed her?

[Bookitty]

The way you presented it seemed pretty fake and trumped up.

It hadn't occurred to me that you would have a power role because I was too busy hating my own, which is freaking useless and which has netted "no result" the first night and a dead person the second.

Oh, may as well claim that too: I targeted Skybird Night one and I got "no result". I dunno what that means, though. I don't know why anyone would have roleblocked me then.

[Bookitty]

Skybird could be ascetic, which leans towards scum.

Is that really that common? I think I've seen it in just one game (Wee-a-Boo Upick, if I recall correctly) and it basically got the person lynched for claiming it. He was town though.

[Bookitty]

Well, then how could I know that Cheetory was a tracker and not a watcher, please?

You understand that I KNOW I didn't kill Anen, so I KNEW that Cheetory couldn't have been a watcher watching her, because he would have seen someone else visit her along with me, ergo, he wasn't watching her.

How would I have known he wasn't a watcher if I had been the one to kill her? Unless you're arguing that I'm on a scumteam that killed AND vanilla copped her, which would be... weird, anyway.

[Bookitty]

What's the ninja argument, please? (Sorry if I'm being dumb or I missed something obvious, I'm brain dead at this point with one hour sleep last night.)

[Bookitty]

Egg is solidly right that I didn't check into the "non-normal" thing, because it never occurred to me to do so. I wasn't even aware that "best friends" could be considered non-normal, because they are just non-speaking Masons as far as I know and I'm SURE Masons are normal. So I'm not sure why Egg thinks that Best Friends is a non-normal role anyway.

I targeted Skybird because I thought she was under the radar a bit Day One and I thought that the only way my role would be useful would be to catch out people who claimed falsely. I picked Anen because of something in the role PM border argument, which I don't really want to go into too much right now but made me think she was a power role of some kind. She was ascetic, though, so I think it's pretty unlikely that Skybird is one too.

[Bookitty]

I haven't been following Wake in MD, no. Why would I know it from things said in this thread?

Best friends are not on the non-normal list either.

Meh, I've been reading the thread. I haven't been studying it, but I've been pretty busy lately.

I don't get the thing about only hunting one team, either. Can you explain what you mean by that? What would it look like to hunt scum without thinking about teams at all? because that's where my head has been at in this game so far.

[Bookitty]

And okay, NOW I've checked.

From the Wiki:

Everything you ever wanted to know about Masons but were afraid to ask

"The term for players who know each other to be Town but are unable to speak to each other privately is Best Friends, though this has fallen into disuse."

"Masons, regardless of when they are allowed to speak to each other, are considered Normal on mafiascum.net, provided they are Town-aligned. A Masonry must contain at least two Masons."

There you go.

[Bookitty]

So if you're arguing they're non-normal, then they're not town-aligned. Ergo, scum.
Is that your argument?

[Bookitty]

"Masons,

regardless of when they are allowed to speak to each other

, are considered Normal on mafiascum.net, provided they are Town-aligned. A Masonry must contain at least two Masons."

The Wiki wants to have a word with all of you who are saying Best Friends are not normal.

[Bookitty]

In Drawn on Arrival, Reina and I were Silent Masons (that's the same as Best Friends, for anyone who wants to check it out) and no one was squeaking about it being a non-normal role there.

You're now parroting something Cheetory said which I already already refuted and he ADMITTED was false. I was being SARCASTIC about Varsoon being town suddenly -- Ozgin had towned him and I was making fun of Ozgin.

I have no clue what you're going on about otherwise. Varsoon was a nightkill, so there was no wagon for me to avoid.

[Bookitty]

Did you read the link I posted, SilverWolf? Or the second quote?

If you're saying the Wiki isn't accurate, then that's something else again. Best Friends are clearly listed as a variation on Masons and are therefore normal if they are town.

[Bookitty]

I don't think my role is especially useful anyway, so I am not going to fight and scream about it. I do think Skybird needs to be looked at, though, given her weird reaction to the ascetic accusation. (Anen just flipped ascetic as town, so if Skybird is ascetic, she's most likely scum.)

[Bookitty]

FA, you realise I'm responding to a comment by Egg who thinks that my not focusing on non-normal roles was a scumtell, right?

[Bookitty]

Egg thought that Vanilla Cop was non-normal. He thought I was bad for not checking on whether my role was normal when Best Friends were already in the game and they were non-normal; since there can be only two (cue Highlander music) this obviously means I wasn't scumhunting because if my role HAD been non-normal I would have been able to counterclaim them.

Silverwolf didn't start this conversation and neither did I.

[Bookitty]

That is a bit of role-spec that does not follow logically.

It is silly to claim that one role is confined to scum simply because a scum player has it and doubly so for modifiers.

Anen didn't flip scum, you know. So I think that multiple town ascetics seems pretty farfetched.

If that's not what you're saying, then please clarify. You're confusing me.

Luckily, I haz plans tonight so you can confuse me tomorrow.

[Bookitty]

@SilverWolf: I'll look at that later. I think the only difference between Silent Masons and Best Friends, however, is the name. Maybe the Wiki IS wrong, but I don't know if we could even get a clarification from the mod at this point.

Drawn on Arrival was indeed a theme game.

[Bookitty]

Wait Bookitty targetted a dead guy N2 AND got a no result N1?

None of this was mentioned in the neighborhood.

I really should catch up because if that's true, that's such a bad claim.

Why would I claim in the neighbourhood, Egg? What would be the reason for that? Even if I'd gotten a read on Skybird, why would I out a power role without a good reason? This is crap, and I expect better from you, Egg. Our hood isn't a masonry.

I didn't get ANY result (not a "no result", just flatly no result at all, no PM about it) on Aneninen. I assume this is because she died that night.

[Bookitty]

But being tracked to a dead guy AND claiming you were blocked N1, yeah I'm doubting your claim and it should be obvious why.

Yes, and I would doubt me too. That's what happened, though.

[Bookitty]

Cheet, why do you think Boon and Dragonspawn are confirmed town?

Is there any reason not to for now?

I actually agree with Cheetory here. It would be extremely risky for them to claim together if they were on a scumteam together. This is multiball, so the likelihood one would be a nightkill is actually very high. Once one was outed, the other would be too. I think they are basically conftown. If I'm wrong you can mock me at the end of the game. :p

[Bookitty]

I like the wagon on Prolapsed Brain, but I feel this way:

1. My role seems really useless for town. Even if I got a result that said someone was a power role, I don't think I want to out that. Now that people know my role, they're not going to claim a power role or VT unless they have that, I would guess, so I feel like I can't do much good with the role.
2. I guess I could test the Best Friends claim, but since I was assuming they were town it seemed like a waste. Still, if that would help I would do it.
3. I feel like there is a big question mark over my head that doesn't go away unless you lynch me and I flip. I'm not going to be the nightkill now because I'm a convenient lynch, so it might be worth just lynching me to get rid of that question mark.

Regardless of what else we do about the lynch, I would like someone to check on Skybird at some point because I see no reason I would have been roleblocked. The Anen thing makes sense; if she's dead, the mod won't bother giving me my result because it will be in the thread. But the Skybird thing is a problem for me and I'd like to see it addressed either before or after my flip.

I'm itching to answer questions asked of other people (okay, just one question) but I know it's wrong so I won't do it. Just picture me in the back of the class holding up my hand and waving frantically at the teacher :p

[Bookitty]

@Cheetory: Who do you think my preferred lynch target is?

I feel like you're skimming my posts rather than actually reading them for content. Is that a fair assessment of the situation?

[Bookitty]

You're not paying attention.

I said I thought my lynch was a good idea because I will be a target of suspicion and I don't want that to screw up LYLO, so we may as well get it done now.

I don't self-vote.

Do me the courtesy of actually READING my posts instead of just skimming and looking for crap you can throw at me, please. I'd appreciate it.

[Bookitty]

If you want to be lynched then what do you care if I'm being ridiculous or nonsensical?

Because it goes to your motivations. I know how I'm going to flip, so I don't care if I'm lynched. That does not equate to me not caring if you're acting scummy and not reading the game while still trying to push a lynch, no matter WHOSE lynch it is. If you act scummy, I'll call you out on it, and that's what you're doing right now.

[Bookitty]

Mmmm, delicious ham.

I don't support a Cheet lynch today because I believe his claim and I think he does honestly believe I'm scum.

I don't think I'm making the game unfun for you, Cheetory. I'm not throwing a fit about being lynched (I can fully see how it looks and I would probably lynch me too) and I'm not throwing out buckets of AtE to make people feel sad for being suspicious in a situation I would suspect myself.

So I don't get the point of that, honestly. If being suspected makes the game not fun for you, then the game isn't going to be fun for you most of the time, I fear, because everybody suspects everybody eventually.

[Bookitty]

Because I think I'm probably a better one given my crappy role and my visiting Anen on the night she died. That's not going to go away and if I were going to policy lynch, it would be Prolapsed, but I don't think *I* would let me get to LYLO given the crap that's gone down so far. So why vote someone else if I think I am a better lynch?

Out at school all evening, so I might try this phone posting thing but probably not.

[Bookitty]

Btw I wouldn't mind if boo was left alive to check boon or me.

We are being kept alive to put doubt in your mind. Might be good for an independent verification.

This is literally the only good reason I can think of not to lynch me and remove all doubt about things. If I had realised people were doubting their claim (and I really feel like you shouldn't) then I would have checked them instead of Anen last night.

I'm just not sure it's a good enough reason.

[Bookitty]

^^ What she said. And I don't know how it helps town to know who the power roles are before they claim. Now that I'm outed, it's very unlikely that anyone would claim not-vanilla if they were vanilla, too. I think I'm pretty useless except as a functional VT at this point.

I just feel like my role is almost negative utility for town and that I can't overcome the bad coincidence that I targeted someone also targeted by a scumkill. I mean, I'm not sure I would believe me in these circumstances, so I can't blame anyone for not believing it either.

@Cheetory: I misunderstood you and thought you were saying I was keeping you from having fun. I get where you're coming from, but the only way to have fun in Mafia is to try to take it less seriously. It's only life and death, after all! <3 <3

@Lalala: What makes you think I'm scummier now? Can you walk me through the evolution of your read on me, please?

[Bookitty]

Boo.
Can you give a readslist?

Yep, but it has to wait until later because I'm at work right now and they expect me to actually work. The nerve of some people.

[Bookitty]

What do they think work just grows on trees or something?

I know, the bastiges. Okay, later this afternoon or tonight, promised. I needed to do it anyway regardless, so I was just being procrastinat-y.

[Bookitty]

Okay, readslist as promised (curse you,

Red Baron!

Cheetory!):

My happy little townlist:

House. You are pissed at him, Cheetory, but that doesn't change the fact that he's town as town can be in the hood.
Egg. Same deal. I got irritated with him because I misunderstood something he'd said, but I am still sure this guy is town.
Boonskidoodle and Dragonball Z: I believe their claim and I do not think scum make that claim.
Radiant Cowbells. This one I expect to be controversial, but their IDGAF attitude resonates with me as one that town would adopt.
Cheetory6 and a half. I believe the claim and I am sure he tracked me to Anen.

People who make me go Hmmmm.

Deltawave. I am always surprised when he checks in -- like, Wow, Deltawave is in this game?
Drixx. I don't really believe his pushes. They seem off somehow, like that girl who hangs around the cheerleaders and me-toos them all the time.
Silverwolf. I'm starting to think I was wrong to scumread her for the "genuine" thing, but that may be because I like Silverwolf and I don't like suspecting her. I expected her to be more openly suspicious of House; instead, she's paying lip service to it without showing the real paranoia I would expect given her references to Delicious.
FA Q2: This is such a mixed bag. Some things I see as really town, some things bother me. He was big on soft-defending me day one against Boonski and I don't know why, but it pinged me at the time (but he couldn't have known I was town at that point, right? Because multiple scumteams.) I end with a mild townlean on him but I feel weird that he's voting me and pushing Lalala. Pretty sure he can't be on the same scumteam as Lalala though.

People who strike me as scum:

Skybird. I WANT an explanation for the no result I got night one.
Prolapsed Brain. Post moar or eat rope.
Taly. Feels like he's on the fence about just about everything, which I would expect from scummity scum scum.
Kitz. Mostly things from the hood, PoE and the weird response to House's daycop gambit.
Lalalalala. I like her bunches personally. But she's hedging her bets weirdly; it's like she thinks I will flip town, so she doesn't want to go all in, but she wants to vote me. I do not like.

[Bookitty]

Where I put him?

He's listed there look under town and don't look for the abbreviation.

[Bookitty]

Why wouldn't you just kill me, then? You'd know I was a power role for town or for the other team, right? Why out yourself and risk that to take me out when there would be a safer way?

[Bookitty]

I don't think so. I see nothing in the thread about it.

Anyway, I'll check in for questions later. I must go watch television and rot my brain!

[Bookitty]

ooh do me cheeto

I failed.
q.q

Don't worry. It happens to everybody. We can try again later. <3

[Bookitty]

Feel better, SilverWolf. <3 Drink lots of Vitamin C!

[Bookitty]

Bookitty, I have no idea why you didn't get a result N1. I did not get a result either. If I was jailkept or roleblocked, would you have gotten no result?

No to both, as far as I know. Jailkeep = roleblock and protect on someone, so they can't do anything and no one can kill them. I wasn't trying to kill you, ergo, it wouldn't have stopped me investigating you. Roleblock on you doesn't do anything to me.

If you are investigation proof or if I were roleblocked or jailkept, then no result makes sense. It doesn't any other way.

I support a Kitz lynch.

VOTE: Kitz

I'm still okay with my own lynch, though. I think it would clear the air and, as I said, I don't think I would believe me if I didn't know what happened firsthand.

[Bookitty]

I'll check in later.

I think that Boonskiies is referring to me as being in the neighbourhood and therefore sortable by my compatriots there. I don't think that part referred to Lalalalala (got any grapes) at all. But I also don't know how being in a neighbourhood or having a power role will sort me in the future either.

Commuting home, out for a bit.

[Bookitty]

Lalala, could you give me a readslist, please?

The one problem I have had with you is that your reads seem to fluctuate without any real reasoning behind them. A readslist would help in that regard a LOT, and probably not just for me.

[Bookitty]

@MOD:

Could we have a vote count, please?

@Everyone Else: I can self-vote if needed to prevent a no-lynch, though I don't like doing it because I'm against it in principle. But I'll try to check back and make sure we can lynch today. (My schedule is jacked up today, but I'm going to try really hard.)

[Bookitty]

I'm already voting Kitz, but now I REALLY support that lynch.

Moar votes please.

[Bookitty]

That never fails to crack me up.

I'm clearly a bad person.

[Bookitty]

I'd like a vote count at least to ensure that we actually did get a lynch.

Kitz, if you are vengeful, I'm probably your only safe target as I've claimed already and my role isn't vital to town. Just letting you know.

[Bookitty]

^^ Especially if they sparkle.

[Bookitty]

OMG isn't there a werewolf in that series too?

I've missed it so far but I'm pretty sure there is

[Bookitty]

<3 Silverwolf.

Please feel better. We are all thinking good thoughts for you.

[Bookitty]

This is my favourite joke:

A penguin is driving through the desert. Everything is going well, until he starts hearing a horrible noise coming from under the hood of the car. There is no service station in sight, though, so he hopes for the best and just keeps driving, while the noise gets worse and worse. Finally he happens upon a small town. He's so relieved! His car limps into the local service station just before it dies, and the mechanic comes out and looks at the penguin. "Give me two hours and I'll have some idea of what's wrong with it."

The penguin looks around at this desert town and sees a supermarket just a block away. "I'm SAVED!" the penguin thinks. He spends a delightful hour in the fish stick section sampling all the delectable seafood and then the next hour is spent in the frozen confection section eating vanilla ice cream. Then the penguin looks at his watch -- "OMG I'm LATE!" so he rushes back to the mechanic.

The mechanic says, "It looks like you just blew a seal."

The penguin blushes and says, "Oh, no, no, it's only ice cream."

[Bookitty]

What's the worst thing about the casino that was opened on a farm that legally allows drug-usage?
High steaks.
I win the worst joke award.

Did you hear about the new pirate movie? It's rated ARRRR!

[Bookitty]

Why was six afraid of seven?
Because seven eight nine.

[Bookitty]

I want to

Fakevote: Lalala

on suspicion of being a blonde. She questioned Egg's vote and she's acting pretty suspicious on the whole matter.

[Bookitty]

Blonde-claim right there ^^

Moar votes please!

<3

[Bookitty]

Sorry for being absent; work has been comprehensively kicking my butt so far this week. (Not game relevant, but work Internet was down most of yesterday -- the horror!)

I checked on Boonskiies yesterday and he's not Vanilla, so I think that clears that up. As I said before, I don't think two scum would claim together like that, plus, who would they be partnered with?

@Lalala: Why do you think you're being pushed as a wagon right now?

@DeltaWave: What are you trying to figure out? Why do you think Lalala is a policy lynch? I think that title would more appropriately go to a PB lynch, but I typically consider lurker/troll lynches as separate from policy lynches for reasons that aren't very interesting and aren't specific to this game.

[Bookitty]

Well, I obviously meant to say Dragonspawn (which is why I shouldn't post from work when I'm being distracted) but I'm okay with being lynched because of the original issue with Cheetory, which I thought should have netted my lynch yesterday. So vote away. I've had trouble tracking in this game anyway so it's not like I'm amazingly useful here anyway.

[Bookitty]

I'm sure you could have come up with something better.

Since it happens to be the truth, I don't really need to come up with something better. Just lynch me, it's not as though vanilla cop is a must-have power for town anyway.